How Robinhood is using the SEC's New Innovation Exemption | Johann Kerbrat

0:03Bankless Nation, I am once again joined by Johan from Robinhood. Johan, good to see you, my man. Good to see you. How have you been? Good. It is a fantastic time to be in crypto. It's a fantastic time to have one foot in crypto and one foot in TradFi, which is why I wanted to bring you back onto the show today. Also, Robinhood and Robinhood Chain definitely seems to be the center of attention in the crypto industry. First question, Johan, as we get started, how busy are you these days?

0:28Yeah. It's been busy, but I think it's good to be busy when you're in crypto. It means that, you know, the market is up or that there's things going on and that people are excited to build. So it's been a lot of fun, to be honest. Today we are recording the morning of the innovation exemption out of the SEC. This is on the backs of the failure of the Clarity Act to proceed forward. And then the next day we get this innovation exemption from the SEC about the tokenized stock movement happening on chain.

0:58How does the innovation exemption impact you guys, what you guys are doing at Robinhood? Is this for you? Is this for what you guys are building or is this for somebody else? Yes. Well, two things. One is, you know, pretty sad that the Clarity Act was kind of killed a few days ago. I think we still need to have this federal level regulation so that things are not constantly changing and so that more and more institutions can feel confident about building in crypto for the long term.

1:31obviously super excited about the innovation exemption. I think it really means that tokenization is also ready for the U.S., not just something that we should keep doing overseas. So for us, it means that we can bring a lot of the products that we've been building for a long time onshore. And that's really where we're going to see companies like Robinhood being able to have their traditional offering and also crypto and, merging things together.

1:57So really excited overall. There's still a lot of details to kind of understand from the exemption, but so far it seems like it's fairly open to really create this tokenization world that we've been talking about for so long now. So I'm pretty happy about the tech so far. So the Robinhood tokenized stock product is not like a one-to-one representation of an equity. There's some lossiness because it is a debt security, it's not actually the stock.

2:33And as I understand it with the innovation exemption from the SEC, they're trying to make a lane, a pathway guidance for people to make actual tokenized securities that have a very high fidelity relationship. And what that includes is permissioning and KYC for the ability to trade, which is not exactly what the Robinhood tokenized stock product is. And so if Robinhood does lean into the innovation exemption, is it going, you guys are going to have to build a new set of products that do comply with this innovation exemption in addition to the pre-existing Robinhood chain stock tokens?

3:14Is that the path forward that you guys see or how does this proceed? Okay. Yeah, I think it's a little too early for us to check exactly our plan there, but I think it's right that we want to adapt to the regulation of whatever country our products are like to. And a lot of the reason why we built our own chain and our own stock tokens and our own wallet is to actually be able to control this type of compliance requirements that we have depending on the region.

3:41And unfortunately, you know, we don't have a regulation framework for the entire world. So every country has different compliance and so we have to adapt to that. To your point on the stock token, so it is a representation one-to-one. So every time someone buys a stock token, we mint the token, and at the same time, we buy the stock. So on that front, there is no concern to have when there's a lot of tokens being minted. It means that we're buying a lot of the stock of whatever company that people are acquiring the tokens of.

4:21That being said, I think what the exemption is talking about is a little different from the tech security token that we created. And we are going to see how we can adapt exactly to support that use case. But I think for us, what's important is making sure that people will be able to get the right token at the right place. You know, we already have this issue currently on stock tokens where you have many issuers, you have the X stocks, you have the under stocks and et cetera, et cetera.

4:53And so a lot of that require a better UX and UI so that people can understand how to acquire the right token and how. And I think we are going to be able to do a lot of that for the customer. We know if the customer is in the US, for example, so we can show what token is appropriate for them. And then we'll have the right market making pools and system in place to make sure that we can adapt to the region. The activity on Robinhood chain with the tokenized stocks has attracted some of the attention of TradFi CEOs.

5:24Some good, some bad. The AMCC CEO came out loudly spinning obscenities, calling it contemptible and vile. The HIMSS CEO, on the other hand, said, hey, what you guys are doing is pretty cool. They liked it. Are you guys having conversations with CEOs about tokenized stock, your guys' tokenized stock products? And what have people been saying beyond the two CEOs that we know about on Twitter? Outside of the two big public discussions, I think they were trying to attract a lot of eyes on their company.

5:58But so far, what I've received is a lot of emails of people asking to tokenize their stocks from a lot of these traded companies. I think a lot of people are seeing the advantage of it. And again, like we are buying the actual stocks under. It's not like we are making it a thin air. So for a lot of people, it's actually a good thing that we are making it more accessible and that we have these stocks available in 120 plus countries where a lot of people cannot actually easily get exposure to these stocks otherwise.

6:31So I think, you know, overall it's, It was a bit of drama on Twitter, but we haven't really seen any complaint in person. Or we haven't received anything on the mail or anything like that. I think our goal is to make sure that people understand exactly what's going on. If you look at the metrics on the chain, we had a day with more than 1.2 billion in stock tokens volume. We have many days where it's over 500 million. 70% of the trading happen on weekends outside of the exchange hours.

7:11That is really what are the signals showing that tokenization is bringing something on the table, which is 24-7 trading, instance element, global access. And I think that's what people need to focus on and a bit less about the... The technicality between we should use this version or this version, as long as it's backed one to one, I think that's what matters. The thing that makes me laugh the most, to be honest, is some companies that are talking about this are also behind some of the stable coins that are actually the same concept, right?

7:44You have one stable coin. It's not backed by one dollar bill. It's backed by treasuries and equivalents. That's exactly what we're doing here, where we have one token that is backed by the stock. And I think that's what matters. Vlad tweeted out that the stock tokens are going to get an upgrade with the ability to have voting rights and in-kind redemption. And I think this was in feedback to some of the concerns of the AMC CEO. Would you say that this upgrade to the stock tokens, the ability to vote in shareholder governance or do in-kind redemption, is this more about just kind of appeasing the concerns of some TradFi CEOs?

8:29Or is this more like an actual product upgrade that unlocks new possibilities in the stock tokens? No, it's always been on the roadmap. So the In-Kind Redemption, for example, we announced it during our event in London. You know, I was on stage and I mentioned it, that it was coming. First for us was In-Kind Redemption for market makers so that they can more easily move between ShortFi and DeFi. And then to make it available to more of the retail customer, it's a bit more complicated because of the structure of different workarriage accounts across the world.

9:08Voting rights is also something that is always going to be interesting, right? Like the reason why you want to own a stock is not just for the appreciation, it's also the capacity of being able to vote. The reason why it was lower in the roadmap is just because we need to have adoption. You know, we have 175 or 170 million of stock token issued right now. And we prioritize all the major market cap. So the amount of votes that are going to come from these tokens don't have a ton of impact on the company at this level of adoption.

9:47And that's why for us, the real focus has been to make sure that we bring all the use cases of DeFi. You can use your stock token as collateral, you can use them in different places. You get tight pricing no matter the time of the day. That's the kind of stuff that I think we need to really nail before focusing on these lower priorities. But Overall, we know how to do voting rights. We have actually a company, it's called Say by Robinhood, where you have this connection with shareholders and you can ask questions about the companies.

10:21You can see the different documents. You can vote. So all of that we know very well how to do it. It's just a question of timing, basically. You talked about the pretty cool metric that 72% of Robinhood stock token volume is happening after hours and on the weekends. Pretty cool unlock. I think everyone in crypto is very ready for the 24-7, 365 market world that's coming. We're actually recording on the day that the SEC is having their 24-7 trading roundtable.

10:48So we're going to be able to see some of the discussion after that. But there are some mechanical questions that I have about this. And so one thing that we've seen so far is that there are some Robinhood stock tokens that dislocate in price over the weekends because activities happening on the weekends in crypto, we like trading on the weekends. and then price gets dislocated. So can you talk about how that price gets relocated when trading hours open up?

11:17Are market makers involved with this? Is this what in-kind redemptions is for? How does that kind of settle out when the activity on the weekend dislocates from the normal stock market? Can you kind of like walk us through the flow here? Yeah, so there are two types of pricing divergence that you will see. You have the one that are, It's going to be because it's earlier than what you're going to see when the market opens. That's going to happen, especially when the news is hitting on weekends, on Friday night when the markets are closed.

11:49Potentially, the price will change. And then on Monday, the price of the token will stay the same. But the price on the exchange is actually going to adapt and merge with the price of the token. And then you have the opposite issue, the one that you've seen a few weeks ago, where it's more about the fact that we didn't mint enough of the token. So there is a bit of a crunch in terms of how many tokens are available and how many people are trying to buy the tokens.

12:19And so when the market opens again, we are able to mint again because we're able to buy the actual stock again. And so therefore the price converge. On the second point for us, it's something that we're working actively on. We've been onboarding a lot of market makers. You know, that was a three days weekend. What was it, like 10 days ago, where it was also something we were very concerned about because we knew that this type of issues could be even exacerbated because of the fact that it's three days, not just a two days weekend.

12:51And so we spent a lot of time to make sure that there was enough liquidity on the market and we didn't see that divergence happening. And so that's basically what needs to happen. It's just like making sure that we have more and more market makers, more and more pools available for people to actually use. You already see a lot of pools on Uniswap, for example, where you can land your stock tokens. And so we need to make that more accessible and more open to everybody so that...

13:19this type of pricing action will converge correctly. It's something that you see in also traditional markets. For example, you know, the prices on ATS sometimes diverge a bit from the prices on exchanges. That's kind of just the financial market overall. And so we just need to make sure that we can build correctly around it to avoid as much as possible. Okay, so this is a mechanic that has been solved before in other venues, because there are different places that liquidity happens.

13:51And so you guys are just, with Robinhood Chain, adding a new one. But the fundamental problem of relocating price across different venues has been solved before. And this is really just a matter of bootstrapping the systems to build that out on Robinhood Chain. That's what I heard from you. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, the more pools available, the more market makers are going to be interested in the arbitrage opportunities and therefore the pricing issue will be solved.

14:16But we already saw it in the past few weeks. The price have been pretty competitive. Sometimes it's even better than on traditional exchanges. which I think is also the exciting part here is that we are going to unlock different type of market makers from different regions and it's going to be able to really create this price competition and improvements because of that. Do you think there will ever be like an inversion in which the after hours off market liquidity and price discovery is actually so incredibly competitive and strong that it actually becomes the dominant venue simply because there's, of all the properties that crypto people believe to have in blockchains, you know, the 24 seven, the immutability, the permissionless, the access, there are all these strong properties that benefit blockchain based trading.

15:05Do you think that we could actually get to a world where there's an inversion and the normal trad market is kind of the afterthought and the blockchain market is the primary? I think so. I think in a few years, we are not even going to talk about, you know, these new markets versus traditional markets. I think it's just going to be one market and it's going to be based on blockchain. That's why you're seeing a lot of the current exchanges adopting this type of technology, right?

15:32And they are making sure that they can compete because the current setup where you have to shut down after specific hours, you have to do maintenance where you have to reboot everything once a week. can't compete with something like a blockchain that is made for 24-7 and high frequency as well. So I think it's definitely going to happen when exactly will depend on it. I've been trading crypto for almost a decade and I've used so many different wallets, exchanges, aggregators, different front ends over the years and I'm always kind of looking for the same thing.

16:06Just one interface with deep liquidity across a bunch of chains and assets where I can access all the markets like perps, earn yield, trade confidentially and still control all my own funds. And I've never really found this experience. And I'm always switching wallets, juggling gas fees and just getting eaten by slippage. Near.com is not that. It feels fundamentally different to me. I can do everything I want from any chain and I keep all my activity confidential.

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18:54$2.1 billion in tokenized assets. Over a billion of that is stable coins. $165 million of tokenized real world assets. $1.5 billion of value deposited into apps. That's $500 million into Morpho, $330 million into Athena, and $300 million into Uniswap. 750 million cumulative transactions across 14 million unique wallets. And Robinhood is about to pass $50 million in gross fee revenue and $44 million in profit for Robinhood. All of these metrics has to be at least somewhat of a surprise to the upside.

19:32Am I right, Johan? Okay. I don't know if it's a surprise. You know, we worked so hard on this chain for many years now. So I think we're just really, really happy about the metrics. I think what we've been more surprised was the developer activity. One metrics that you haven't mentioned, but... We've seen the chain being one of the top three, if it's not top one, I think currently, where there is development being done or active there where you see a lot of teams developing on it.

20:07And I initially thought it would be a bit harder to convince people to build on the revenue chain. So we spent a lot of time creating an ecosystem from the beginning to make sure that the chain will be ready for whatever you need to use. You have the right custody protocol. You have the right... you know, taxes and all this stuff. So that's been really surprising. I think we, what's the most exciting for me that just at the beginning, you know, the integration with the Robinhood ecosystem is just started.

20:35We have the earned products that you mentioned that is from the main app, but we haven't done much more than that. We have the Robin wallet that is available for the Robinhood chain that is also doing well. So I think, you know, what's the most exciting is to think about all the new stuff that aren't yet to be built or that are built, but we haven't already seen them yet. And I think that's what's really cool. We spend a lot of time to build our tokens in a way that is composable so that you can actually create things on top of it.

21:06So some of this, like, Mincoin that are pegged on the stock tokens, for example, is something that I find pretty cool. And that was not something that we were expecting, but, you know, people thought about it. And so I think that's just a beginning to see what are the new stuff that people will come up with. Yeah, I think the paired meme coin stock tokens has been just a source of a ton of attention and virality in the crypto space. What's it been like on the Robinhood side?

21:34Have you guys been talking about sharing in your guys' Slack about the meme coin paired stocks? I want to see what it's like on your guys' side of the aisle here. I don't know. I think the first time was really just... just that they were created. And there was a lot of psych where we were trying to look at the smart contract and make sure that it was working the way we were thinking. I think some of the more fun stuff are all the memes created with either Vlad or sometimes even me, where he's fighting with Wolf or Bears or whatever.

22:08So that's been also really fun. And it's a big part of our Slack shitposting. So yeah, we have a lot of that. Uh, there's a, a growing, uh, amount of non tokenized stocks, but tokenized real world assets. So you guys have tokenized gold on there, but there are some people asking about tokenized commodities, uh, beyond, beyond just gold is the plan to also add on things like tokenized copper and tokenized, you know, real estate. If the, if the time comes, what, what about just beyond tokenized stocks?

22:43Yeah, we think the tokenization framework works for almost everything from private equities. That's something that, you know, we've been pretty vocal that we want to work on and that we're working actively on. Real estate, arts, more commodities. We have perpetuals that are available already on silver and more. Copper is something that I receive a lot of message on. Yeah, there's a meme coin out there that for some reason really wants and needs tokenized copper.

23:12I haven't figured that one out. But, you know, overall for us, the idea is that if we can tokenize or if we can partner with somebody that has tokenized assets, we want to do it. For example, tokenized gold. I think this one is a bit easier because gold doesn't take as much space. So there is a lot of options there. Silver is also something that I think we are starting to see more and more issuer doing. Copper, I don't think I have seen too many yet.

23:40So we'll have to keep looking. What's your favorite tokenized stock on Robinhood chain? You know, it's hard to say because Robinhood is not on it. So I can't say Robinhood yet. Wait, Robinhood, it hasn't tokenized its own stock on Robinhood chain? Not yet. Mostly for the way that our system is done with the fact that the issuer is part of Robinhood and that we're a public company is a little complicated. Oh, you like trip a regulatory wire or something?

24:09Right, but we're working actively on it. And at some point, we absolutely want Robinhood to be part of the tokenized system that we have. That's a nice little treat to keep in your guys' pocket. I'm sure that's going to be fun when that gets released. What about the core app? And so there's a lot of crypto companies out there clamoring to get in front of more people. Robinhood has the distribution. What goes into the Robinhood selection process or criteria for choosing partners for on-chain products?

24:41It really depends on what we are trying to build. I think the... Starting points for us is what are we exactly trying to solve? Usually we don't want to just launch a product that somebody else already offers. We want to make it better. So, for example, when we launch our own product, we wanted to make sure that the rate will be way more stable for a longer period of time. We also wanted to make sure that the rate will be higher. And we also wanted to have some insurance to cover a loss of funds in case of a small hack or something like this.

25:15So Usually that's how we start kind of the product decision. We want to make sure that we find good angles. And then we start going down the rabbit hole of like, what do we want to build ourselves? What is like the thing that we really think needs to be done by our team and be verified and audited by our team? What other thing that we could actually move faster by partnering with somebody? And so based on that, you will see sometimes we partner with a lot of people, sometimes with nobody.

25:47So for example, our own product, we partnered with Morpho as a lending protocol instead of trying to build our own. We also partnered with... For the chain, we partner with OCL, who is kind of the company that is also maintaining Arbitrum to make sure that they could maintain a lot of architecture so that we don't just like try to do things that we are not the most expert on. But for example, the stock tokens, something that we really, really cared about, that is all done in-house.

26:18We brought our own smart contracts. We got audited from a firm to make sure that everything will be done correctly at multiple levels. So, you know, it kind of depends on the product, but usually we try to do a lot of things in-house when we can make a differentiated product. So the U.S., Citizens, U.S. residents are still some of the most restricted people, ironically enough, in the world of just blockchain and crypto just because of just the regulations that are like Robinhood stock tokens, for example, aren't available to U.S. traders.

26:54What clarity or regulation are you really looking for from the SEC? I know we just got the innovation exemption about stock tokens today, so maybe it's that. But even beyond that, I'm sure there's even more things that you guys could use guidance or clarity on to unlock access to U.S. citizens who are using the main Robinhood app. If you had like a wish, a genie came out of the bottle and you guys had a few wishes to make, what would unlock you guys the most in terms of providing cool new products and services in the main Robinhood app to US citizens?

27:30Well, the first thing, to be honest, is innovation exemption address. Yeah. got published about tokenization is huge. You know, it really means that the train of tokenization that has been going everywhere and has been taking a lot of people by surprise on how big the movement is can actually also now be in the US and that's the next stop for all products for sure. So that part is huge. I think the one caveat on this is that it's an exemption for five years.

28:03So there's a lot of question around that. And you also have limits on how much you can trade the assets. So there's a limit on the number of assets, and there's also a limit on the volume of the assets. So it's not fully, you can go all in or something like that. we also still have a state-by-state jurisdiction currently. So we have a New York bit license, for example. We have different licenses across the U.S. There's a new license regime in California.

28:35And so what it means is that there are differences for customers based on where they lead. For example, you can stake assets on Robinhood almost everywhere in the U.S. except four states. So that's the kind of thing that can really be helpful for us is to have one regulation that we can look into and offer a product for everybody, basically. There are still a lot of questions around. staking like I just mentioned, but also around lending protocols.

29:06There's also a question around DeFi activity, what you do on DeFi and how does it get reported, taxes and all these kind of things. And then you also see a lot of question happening currently at kind of DEX slash perhaps DEX level where can a company like like a DEX that is outside of the US, can they operate in the US and how, and all this kind of question are being kind of discussed. So the more we get clarity from both the SEC and the CFTC, the better we'll be able to offer a product that are available outside of the US to the US customer and at the same time still offer the production that the US customer needs.

29:49You talked about offering experiences, offering products that no one else is able to offer or just hasn't really been built yet. There's a race going on with the perpetual in combination with real tokenized stocks. And so there is a loop that's created when you have both the actual underlying, not just a synthetic, being traded on a perpetual along with a spot market. So say, for example, you have tokenized Apple on a spot market, but then Apple is also traded on the perpetual 5X, 3X, 10X, whatever.

30:23Having that both in the same venue unlocks... so much permutations of possibilities. You can create strategies, you can combine things, really just like the innovation space explodes. Is that something that Robinhood is like gunning for? Or are you kind of like still letting that be up to the PERP platforms to build that out? And then if you guys want, you guys can integrate it. So like, are you guys in this race too? Or are you leaving this up to the actual perpetual platforms?

30:52No, we've been in the race for a long time. So you can do exactly what you just mentioned on LIDAR, for example. We're an investor and a partner where you can use our stock tokens on both the spot and the perps market and create strategies. You can also do a lot of things on Arcus. And we have integrated with LIDAR, for example, on our wallet. So you can do a lot of things that you just mentioned pretty easily using the same kind of UI, UX that we have.

31:20We also have a Perps platform outside of the U.S. currently. In the EU, it's a licensed platform. We have crypto assets, but we also have commodities on it, and we also have ETFs. And so, you know, a lot of the things that you're discussing is things that we're also looking into. The main question for us is how do we do it in a compliant way within the U.S., and how do we offer it with the best UI and UX? But Perps is something that we've been doing for a long time.

31:52So we know the product well and we know our customer love it. So it's something that we rather fall into. Given the pathway, having clarity on the pathway, would we be able to expect Perps to appear in the main Robinhood core app? If we get the right regulatory structure, we will absolutely have perps in one shape or form in the app. If you are EU customer, if you're somewhere in Europe, you can already trade crypto stock tokens and access perps within the same app.

32:28There are different criteria to make sure that the customers are eligible, but it's something that is already within the same app. And we really build a cool UX and UI experience where you can set your take profit and stop loss with a slider. So it's very simple. And you can see the charts moving at the same time. So definitely something that we will want to do here. I want to ask you about your guys' relationship to ETH. So Robinhood Chain uses Ether, the asset, as gas, Not all big layer twos do that.

33:00Sometimes they use their native token. How does Robinhood crypto and the Robinhood team just view Ethereum and Ether specifically? And would Robinhood ever buy ETH and put it on the balance sheet? we don't have a plan right now to buy ETH and to put it on the balance sheet. We do have a lot of ETH right now generated with the chain. So that's one thing that we are working on. When you generate the ETH with the chain fees, do you just hold it? You hold the ETH?

33:33It depends. Sometimes we sell, sometimes we hold. It kind of depends on the amounts and the time of the year and a lot of things that... our financial team could tell you a bit more than me, but at the end of the day for us, one of the reasons we wanted to build an L2 was to be able to rely on the decentralization and the securities that Ethereum has built. And there's a lot of things going on, right? You have the... You have the rise of AI that is going to change and find new bugs and vulnerabilities.

34:08And so a lot of work will need to happen on every type of software that is running on our computer. You have quantum. That is also something that, you know, is coming and we need to make sure that all the crypto chains are going to be safe in the future for it. So there's a lot of work to be done. And the other reason we really liked it was to have this way to be able to bridge between all the EVM chain very easily and reduce the cost and all these kind of things.

34:39That is kind of the reason we did this L2. And so for us, it's part of that also that we want to, you know, generate some of the fees that are going back to the L2. I know it's a smaller portion than what we generate, but that's kind of the structure of E3 Home and Rollups. But we want to be very active with the foundation. We are regularly meeting with them. We also... regularly meeting with different groups that I've created recently, like EastLab and others.

35:09And so for us, it's really important to keep this coordination well. We think that we are becoming a bigger part of Ethereum. You know, if you look at the usage of the Ethereum chain through stuff like Robinhood chain, we are taking a larger and larger part. And so we want to make sure that we are contributing to the chain as well. Johanna knows a very, very busy time over in Robinhood. What are you excited about when it comes to Robinhood crypto and Robinhood chain that I haven't asked about yet?

35:41Is there anything else on the future roadmap or just things that you guys are working on that I wouldn't know to ask or things that you're excited about? Right now we're doing a lot of cool stuff on our Robin wallet to, for example, not have to pay gases as a customer or not have to worry about bridging between chains. So we do the cross-chain for you. We're also helping the discoverability of assets to be a lot better. Another thing that is really cool is around our combination of AI and crypto.

36:14So we launched recently Agentic Trading through AI. You can connect your agent to RNCP and you can do a lot of new strategies that, frankly, I didn't know I could do because I didn't have the knowledge, but my agent could find a lot of ways. And at the same time, we have all these cap rails to make sure that, you know, it's a separate pool of money. You have different check that you can put in place to make sure that the agents act like you want to.

36:42Yeah. But I think that's going to be more and more interesting, especially in the world of the chain, of the robbing chain and the tokenization. You will see more and more of this like, arbitrage opportunities and pairs of things that we haven't thought about doing before in traditional markets. So pretty excited to see how people are going to start using it. Johan, I know you're a busy guy. There's a lot of things to build. I'll let you get back to it.

37:06Thanks for coming on the show and talking to me about all things Robinhood Chain. And I think everyone in crypto really appreciates what you guys are doing out there. Thank you so much for having me. See you soon. Bankless Nation, you guys know the deal. Crypto is risky. You can lose what you put in, but it's not risky enough. The institutions have landed, so we are going even further west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we are glad you're with us on the Bankless Journey.

37:25Thanks a lot.