Leading wisely, with Caroline Webb

0:03Speaker 1:Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good morning. This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast.

0:14Speaker 2:Today's episode is going to be a slightly longer one, part of the series where I interview fascinating people about how they take their days from great to awesome and any advice they have for the rest of us. So today I am delighted to welcome Caroline Webb to Before Breakfast. Caroline is a leadership expert and the author of the brand new book, Leadership Intelligence.

0:35Speaker 1:Caroline, welcome to the show.

0:37Speaker 3:It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.

0:39Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for joining us. Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?

0:43Speaker 3:Well, I'm an executive coach.

0:45Speaker 4:I focus on helping leaders use insights from behavioral and cognitive science and apply them in very, very practical ways to improve the way that they lead, work, and live.

0:57Speaker 2:And where are you coming at us from in the world?

1:00Speaker 3:I'm coming from New York, despite my accent.

1:03Speaker 1:Wanted people to check, you know. So Caroline is based in New York.

1:07Speaker 2:And Caroline, you know, there's a lot of management and leadership books in the world. What are you aiming to do differently with leadership intelligence?

1:15Speaker 4:Well, I've been working with leaders and managers at all levels in organizations for over 25 years now.

1:22Speaker 3:And I've always used.

1:23Speaker 4:An approach that's been grounded in cognitive and behavioral science, because I've seen time and again how when people have a bit of an understanding of the human mind, it's a lot easier to make the most of the human talent around you and in your own talent as well. So I really wanted to put that intel, if you like, into the hands of as many leaders as possible. And that's what leadership intelligence is. It's come out of you know, several decades of work and seeing what works and what helps and capturing that in as systemic a way as possible.

1:56Speaker 3:Yeah.

1:56Speaker 2:And the book is built around something like 21 scenarios that a leader will commonly face in his or her career.

2:04Speaker 1:I wanted to talk about just a few of.

2:06Speaker 2:Those in the time we have today. So First, one of the challenges that many leaders face is making time for their top priorities. People who are listening to a time management show are well.

2:19Speaker 1:Aware of this.

2:20Speaker 2:But why is it so difficult for leaders to make time for their priorities?

2:25Speaker 1:I mean, they're in charge.

2:26Speaker 3:Yeah.

2:27Speaker 4:And arguably, you'd say, well, you've got control of your calendar if you're in charge, right? But the reality is that, you know, if you're productive, committed, professional, you know, you've got a lot that's coming your way and it's really hard to say no. You feel that you want to do a good job for everybody and you learn those habits early in your career. And then as you advance, you've got to change the way you're using your time. And a lot of the time we don't. We get stuck in old patterns and we don't rethink, well, hold on, what is it that I'm uniquely placed to do now that I am perhaps managing other people formally or informally?

3:06Speaker 4:And so that re-evaluation of where do I really add value and how do I then create a calendar that matches that and lets go of a bunch of stuff that perhaps you used to do, but you need to now re-evaluate. or perhaps even drop completely, that's a rethink. And as we all know, an identity shift takes some effort, and it's a deep thing to go through as a person.

3:30Speaker 2:Yeah, well, especially a lot of people have been promoted because they are good at fixing things, but then they may no longer be the person who needs to dive in and fix the deck, for instance, right before the meeting's coming up. So you have something called the yes system, I want to make sure I get this right. The yes, grow, no method for people who are dealing with this challenge.

3:50Speaker 1:Can you describe what that is?

3:52Speaker 3:Thank you. Yes.

3:53Speaker 4:So the yes, grow, no method is, first of all, getting extremely clear on what you need to say yes to. And that positive yes is all about knowing where your value add is. So what is it that you're uniquely responsible for? Is it lifting yourself up and seeing the big picture?

4:11Speaker 3:Probably.

4:12Speaker 4:Is it engaging and motivating your team?

4:16Speaker 3:Probably. There may be some other things that really are only you. And I find a.

4:21Speaker 4:Lot of people are not super clear in their minds about what it is that only they can do. And that's what the first part of the model is about. It's the positive yes. And then let go and grow is the second bit, which is, okay, well, what could someone else do even if not as well as you. And that's the tricky bit because, yeah, I mean, your team isn't as experienced as you, so maybe they won't do it as well as you. But if you don't let go of the things they could do pretty well, then you're not going to have time to do the things that only you can do. And then the rest of it, I mean, there are things you simply have to decline.

5:00Speaker 3:You can't delegate.

5:02Speaker 4:You can't let go and grow and use it as a growth opportunity for your people. That's where the positive no comes in. And that's a way of saying no that preserves relationships.

5:12Speaker 2:So what is an example of a positive no? Like if you were turning me down for something, Caroline, what might you say?

5:18Speaker 4:Well, the trick with a positive no is to lead with what you're saying yes to rather than what you're saying no to. Because I think, you know, when we are needing to decline or pull out of something we've already committed to, of course, we don't feel good about that. And we're very focused on our angst about letting someone down or feeling that we're letting someone down. And so we often lead with, I'm so sorry. And I'm not saying that sorry is wrong. It's absolutely the right thing to say, but it should come lower down in the conversation.

5:47Speaker 4:If you lead with, first of all, some positive appreciation of what the other person is asking you, we often skip that when we're stressed about saying no. Say, that's a really great project that you're working on, Laura. I really appreciate that you thought of me for it. It's a small thing, but you start with that. Then you go with your yes, which is right now I'm working on a big new book that's on leadership and it's a life's work and it's called Leadership Intelligence.

6:15Speaker 3:And it's wonderful, but it's very stretching. There's your no. Finally, you get to it.

6:21Speaker 4:So I'm really sorry, but I have to decline what I would otherwise love to do. And then you do a warm close. And that's also something we sometimes forget to do, which is I wish you all the very best for the project. I'm, you know, sure it's going to be a terrific success. And if you follow that structure, and I've been using this now, gosh, 15 years, over a decade, I can vouch for the fact that it really helps you preserve the relationship. And it also actually reminds you of what you're saying yes to, which is no bad thing.

6:52Speaker 2:Yeah. And part of saying yes to the things that you uniquely can do is making sure that your calendar contains time for this. You have something called a MWM, meeting with me.

7:05Speaker 1:Can you talk about that?

7:06Speaker 3:Yeah.

7:07Speaker 4:So the thing is that, you know, we often get our calendar full up with other people's requests. And you've got to think about how do you protect the time? Now, I think everybody knows, well, in principle, I should block time for my deeper thinking or bigger priorities. But often it doesn't get protected. So I really encourage people to take a couple of strategies in blocking a meeting with myself, which is one, you know, be very opportunistic. If you see a block opening up in your calendar and you think, oh, something's been cancelled and I've now got this space, lock it in and block it for yourself. You can call it strategy session if you share your calendar with other people.

7:49Speaker 4:And then the other thing I suggest is the time-honored thing of saying, okay, well, maybe there's a slot each week when I do my big picture review. That often gets competed out because I think people try and block a bigger time block than is ever going.

8:03Speaker 3:To be realistic.

8:04Speaker 4:So I encourage people to be super realistic about what that time is. Maybe it's 30 minutes in a week and you block that for yourself and you block it at a time when you're at your cognitive best. So not you know, not when you're, it depends on your body clock, but not when you're not feeling so sharp, but try to put it at a time when you know you're feeling sharp. And, you know, that works for me and it works for the people that I work with. And it's a mix of being opportunistic and realistic that makes it work.

8:32Speaker 2:I think.

8:33Speaker 1:Sounds good.

8:34Speaker 2:Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and then I'll be back with more from Caroline Webb. Well, I am back talking with Caroline Webb, who is an executive coach and the author of the new book, Leadership Intelligence. So Caroline, another one of the scenarios that you talk about is that many leaders need to come up with good ideas, lots of new ideas, good ideas. What is the FUSE method, F-U-S-E, that you suggest people follow?

9:05Speaker 4:So the FUSE method is all about getting your mind into the right place to do the hard and interesting work of solving a new problem. And when you're trying to come up with a new idea, you've got to create conditions for your brain to make new connections. And that isn't just business as usual. You've got to get your brain into a slightly different state. So FUSE stands for focus your mind, unpack your mind, shift your mind, and enable or equip. So focus your mind is where you need to quiet the distractions that are inside and outside your mind.

9:43Speaker 3:So FUSE.

9:45Speaker 4:Distractions that are outside your mind, that is taking out the clutter, that is taking out the distractions, turning off your phone, turning off notifications, because as soon as you have anything that splinters your attention, nothing gets the full benefit of your intelligence. And then inside your mind, you want to be really clear. Well, what is it I'm actually working on? So, so often we sit down, we're trying to figure something out. And then we say, okay, what is it that I am trying to do here?

10:13Speaker 4:And then 10 minutes have gone by before you actually really bring your mind to it. So being really clear about, okay, what is it I'm truly, truly focusing on? I'm really trying to come up with an idea on this. Unpack your mind is you've got a lot of stuff swirling around. write it down so you're not having to try and keep it all in your mind. Your brain's got a very small amount of working memory. And then chunk it into four or five, three or four, not more than that, chunks of themes or topics that you can group around.

10:40Speaker 4:And the beauty of that is that it fits more what your capacity of your working memory is. When we take a long list of stuff and then we shrink it into four or five chunks, four or five headings, the weird thing is that even though it's the same amount of information, our brains find it a lot easier to cope with. And then shift is shift your perspective. You've got to get into a different place and to see different ideas and make new connections that link ideas in different ways. So there are a few different ways you can do that. One thing I like is the two bite rule where you don't try and solve a problem in one go, but you deliberately plan a break in the middle. So you go away and then you come back. We all know you often see things differently when you do that. And that's a shift of perspective that comes from stepping away and stepping back. And there are several other ideas in the book about how to do that. And then finally, equip or enable your mind to take the next steps. That's getting super practical on the next thing you do. And that's in there because if you don't, sometimes you come back to your thinking session.

11:43Speaker 4:You think, oh, what was it? What was it again that I was supposed to do? Make it be generous and kind to your future self and actually be really clear what is the exact next step that I'm taking from this.

11:56Speaker 2:Yeah, and next steps are often motivating. I mean, as we take a small step, we want to keep going on it. But for sure, a good idea that is not put into practice is not really a good idea when it comes.

12:07Speaker 1:Down to it.

12:09Speaker 2:Another scenario, Caroline, that you have in the book is that sometimes leaders need to help a colleague who is struggling. Not necessarily like performance issues. I mean, hopefully there's good feedback about, you know, this is what I wanted you to do. This is how it went, that there's regular feedback going on with there. But, you know, somebody who's a good performer who seems to be struggling in a certain season here. You mentioned you had a scenario like this a few years ago.

12:36Speaker 3:Yeah.

12:38Speaker 4:I really care about equipping managers and leaders to handle a situation where someone on their team is struggling. because I think we see a lot of it and I have been on the other side of it. I had a sort of slow moving health crash early in my years as a management consultant and I was working very hard. So it definitely wasn't a question of loving the job. I really did love the job, but I had this health crash. I kept on trying to work through it.

13:05Speaker 4:It was really tough. And what happened in the end was I had a great boss who took me aside and said, you know, what's going on? And He called it out. So he had obviously checked his assumptions about what was going on. He wasn't assuming that I was looking tired because I wasn't committed. So he checked his assumptions beforehand. Then he asked what's going on.

13:27Speaker 3:That's the A.

13:29Speaker 4:Again, rather than jumping to any conclusions. And he listened really closely. And that's the lesson.

13:36Speaker 3:That's the L.

13:38Speaker 4:And he really paid close attention to what I was saying about the mix of physical health, but also some complexities on the family side. And then he helped me make it manageable, which is the M. That was actually in the end taking some time off and regrouping and eventually being signed off to come back to work. And the reason why I do C-A-L, check, ask, listen, before make it management, is we so often want to go in and solve the problem. If we're good people, we want to help people to get back on track. We've really got to pause and say, okay, let me not make any assumptions. This is the same as the last time someone fell off their perch in my team. And how do I really make them feel heard and make sure I'm solving the right problem? So the C-A-L is designed to slow you down and get yourself into a curious mindset to make sure that you're making the right thing manageable for your colleague.

14:32Speaker 2:All right, so the acronym is CALM. We're checking our assumptions, we're asking questions and listening and then making it manageable for them. So with the questions, though, I mean, obviously many people are a little bit nervous and for obvious and legal reasons of about, you know, asking too much about what is going on with an employee if there's trouble outside of work. Are there some sensitive ways to ask this so that the person feels that they can volunteer what they need to or want to, but not more than they need to or want to?

14:59Speaker 4:Yeah, I think, you know, the more that you can stick to what I call a factual approach, the safer the conversation is. In fact, I've never really seen it go off the rails. if you use this approach. So you first of all, name very factually what you've noticed. And you call it out, you say, I noticed that you were late into the office three times last week, when normally before that you've been on time. And then ask, tell me what's going on and not jumping to assumptions, right?

15:34Speaker 4:So it's so easy to say, is everything, you know, are you sick? Or is something going on at home? That's what you need to pause and hold yourself back from. Because it's, you don't want to kind of drive the conversation in one direction, if it's not actually the situation, and you don't want to make any assumptions, you want to create the space. So that factual observation, and then the tell me more, what's going on, allows them to choose how much to share. And I think it's Even better if you can set a clear intention at the top of the conversation and wrap it in, I care about you and I care about helping you do your best work and be your best self, whatever language feels natural for you. And if you label it up front as that's the intention of the conversation, it's a lot easier for people to feel like, oh, this.

16:22Speaker 3:Isn't a gotcha.

16:22Speaker 4:This isn't necessarily a critical conversation. This is actually genuinely coming from a place of curiosity. So I think that's important too.

16:30Speaker 2:And the problem making it manageable, you want to take the situation that may be feeling overwhelming for your employee and turn it into something that's more manageable.

16:38Speaker 1:Obviously, you took a short leave of absence.

16:40Speaker 2:Are there other ideas that are on the table for what managers could use?

16:44Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure.

16:46Speaker 4:And I tell the story of a leader who's incredibly thoughtful and creative about that in the book. I think, you know, often there can be ways to reallocate work around the team. You know, I think it's not that you want to, you know, disenfranchise someone who's struggling completely, but there may be creative ways to think about, well, you know, perhaps they could learn the yes, grow, no model and think about how to delegate more of their work. Maybe you can coach them on something that is going on in their life. And I think, you know, that's a role that leaders can and should play. Even if it's something that's going on in someone's personal life, you can help them think about, okay, what's going on?

17:28Speaker 3:Tell me more about what's going on. OK, how are you thinking about that?

17:31Speaker 4:And, you know, is there anything that I can do to help? It's such a small thing when you say it like that. But it means the world to people if they're going through a tough time to know that they're not alone and that their boss cares.

17:44Speaker 1:Absolutely.

17:45Speaker 2:We're going to take one more quick ad break and I'll be back with more from Caroline Webb. Well, I am back talking with Caroline Webb, who is a leadership expert and executive coach, author of the brand new book, Leadership Intelligence. So Caroline, I want to pivot to your schedule. I often ask people if they have a morning routine, but I understand that you are something of a night owl, late night kind of person.

18:12Speaker 1:How does that play out in terms of your schedule?

18:14Speaker 3:That's right.

18:15Speaker 4:Well, it means that, you know, my whole schedule is kind of shifted a couple of hours later than a lot of people. You know, there's a lot of talk of getting up at 4 a.m., My body naturally wants to go to sleep at 4 a.m. So that's quite extremely different. It's like I'm living in a different time zone. And over the years, of course, I can't go to bed at 4 a.m. much as I would love to. My mother was the same, by the way. So there's a genetic component here. But I've worked out how to be really clear about my boundaries. I generally have a start to the day that involves me trying to get a walk in so that I'm getting some sunlight and that helps my circadian rhythms lock in. I definitely check my messages. That's entirely normal. But the key thing is I don't really schedule anything really key.

19:07Speaker 3:That really matters.

19:09Speaker 4:In general, if I can avoid it, you can see all the caveats. If possible, I schedule from 11 a.m.

19:16Speaker 3:Onwards.

19:17Speaker 4:But I'll be happily doing recordings and meetings and coaching clients at 8pm. So it's just a different makeup. And the trick I've found is to be just very clear and transparent with people about that. And I think it would be great if there could be more normalization around that, because 20 to 25% of the population is a night owl who's basically needed to fit in with the norms that the rest of the population has. And I'd love to see a broader conversation about being a night owl in an early world.

19:51Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I think there's certainly so there are probably people who would prefer to have a chat at, you know, 8 p.m.

19:57Speaker 1:Versus, you know, 7 a.m. in the morning.

19:59Speaker 2:Not all things that need to happen outside the workday need to happen before the workday.

20:03Speaker 1:They can also happen after the workday.

20:05Speaker 2:And so do you tend to stay up doing your creative work later into the evening?

20:09Speaker 4:Well, I definitely find that, you know, the times that people say, oh, you know, you're not at your best. You shouldn't do anything too consequential then. You know, is the afternoon and early evening? Yeah, that's when I'm flying. And so I typically schedule my most complex work at the times when other people might say, OK, I'm done.

20:32Speaker 2:And do you feel like you're getting a second wind or is it just sort of like a quick, you know, moving up during the day?

20:37Speaker 1:I'm very curious. The energy patterns here.

20:39Speaker 3:Yeah, it is basically a straight line up. Yeah.

20:43Speaker 4:It's, yeah, it's quite unusual. I mean, Dan Pink, he wrote the book when he and I had a conversation about chronotypes, as they're known, and body clocks. And he said, you've got the chronotype of a teenage boy.

20:59Speaker 3:I said, yes, I know.

21:03Speaker 4:But, you know, I think once you know your chronotype, yourself and your when you're at your cognitive peak, you can then schedule around it. So, you know, I think you can't always make it fit. I mean, you know, I've just said yes to a meeting, presenting something at 740 in the morning for which I'll need to get up very early, drink quite a bit of coffee, look at the, look at the sky, uh, so that I can be ready for it. Um, but it's, uh, you know, I think once you know that it makes that much difference to your performance, it's really worth the, the small amount of effort to be transparent about it.

21:41Speaker 3:Absolutely.

21:42Speaker 2:Well, I always ask my guests, what is something you have done recently to take a day from great to awesome?

21:50Speaker 4:Well, uh, you know, when you're launching a book, it's a busy time. Um, But I'm really trying to make time for social connections for my friends because all the research is out there on just how much of a boost it gives us both in the short term and the long term. And last Wednesday, I was excited to hear that a friend of mine was coming in from Boston to visit New York. I looked at my calendar and I thought, well, how can I possibly make this work?

22:20Speaker 4:How can I see her? And I was creative about it. I figured out that I could propose a walk in Central Park with her as I went from A to B, from a meeting on the west side to a meeting on the east side.

22:34Speaker 3:And it worked out perfectly.

22:37Speaker 4:And I got this lovely boost in the middle of a busy day by seeing my friend Nila. And I was pretty pleased to have managed to pull that off. And I think in general, I just try to make sure that I'm making time for good friends. I'm doing the same tomorrow. And, you know, I know I'm going to feel great after it.

22:55Speaker 3:Awesome after it.

22:56Speaker 1:Yes, awesome after it.

22:57Speaker 4:Well, I love it.

22:57Speaker 1:It's really two things.

22:58Speaker 2:It was seeing your friend, you know, also putting your friend into a busy schedule and then probably walking between meetings through Central Park.

23:05Speaker 1:I mean, that's like awesome in and of itself.

23:07Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely.

23:08Speaker 4:I try to try to schedule things so that I will walk. If it's If it's 40 minutes or less to walk, I will almost always try and do it as a walk. You know, it perhaps gets a little dicier if it's longer than that, but I've been known to do a walk, you know, for 45 minutes. And it just does make a lot of difference when you get more steps in, but it also just puts you a little bit in contact with nature and we know how that lifts our spirits.

23:37Speaker 1:Do you have any sort of rules? Like if it's over 90% humidity, forget it.

23:42Speaker 3:That is a good question.

23:44Speaker 4:So I am, you know, I grew up in the UK where.

23:49Speaker 3:Hot weather was a bit exotic.

23:51Speaker 4:So I've got a bit more tolerance for hot, sticky weather than I think, you know, some people here do. But yeah, I've actually, I'm definitely getting better at saying, oh, no, that's a terrible idea. And what I will do then is there's a mall, an air conditioned mall, not far from where I live. And I'll suggest that we go and, you know, maybe walk around that and look at what's in the mall. And we've got the air conditioning. We still get our steps in. That's a really good backup plan I found.

24:19Speaker 1:I love it. I love it. Well, Caroline, what are you looking forward to right now?

24:23Speaker 4:Well, I'm looking forward to the book launch. I'm looking forward to getting this sort of life's work out into the world. And that's, you know, that's just going to be such a wonderful experience. You know, I had that experience with how to have a good day in my last book and just that feeling of seeing people actually engaging with the material and the ideas and feeling, feeling useful. I mean, all I care about in life is really feeling useful and, uh, I'm looking forward to amping up that sense of feeling useful.

24:53Speaker 2:And where can people find you?

24:54Speaker 4:Uh, my website is carolineweb.co. So that's Caroline web, web with two B's and it's.co not.com. And you can find information about my books, including the big new one, Leadership Intelligence. You can sign up for a newsletter. You can get free resources. So I'd love to see people there if they are interested in following up.

25:15Speaker 1:Sounds good.

25:16Speaker 2:Well, Caroline, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback about this or any other episode, you can always reach me at laura at lauravandercam.com. In the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening. And here's to making the most... Thanks for.

25:40Speaker 1:Listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at laura at lauravandercam.com. Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.