The D.A.'s Decision | EP 6 | Season 3

0:01Speaker 1:The criminal charges against Kenny hamp began with one important decision, the doctor's report of suspected or potential child abuse, and that happened when Steve, the boy's father, had brought his son to the pediatrician. Here's Kenny's lawyer, Chris Decker.

0:19Speaker 2:This was the beginning of what was a series of medical appointments that this child was brought to over the next days and weeks in order to try to generate evidence.

0:33Speaker 1:When Chris started on the case, he was shocked by the number of doctors who had seen the boy. Three visits to the pediatrician, two different hospitals, and a sexual assault nurse examiner not just asking questions but giving him examinations.

0:50Speaker 2:It was clear that Steve believed his son had been hurt.

0:54Speaker 1:Chris read their findings.

0:56Speaker 2:This child had been seen by numerous medical professionals, none of whom found any serious injury.

1:04Speaker 1:No evidence of serious injury.

1:07Speaker 2:The doctor shopping was I believe strong evidence that Steve had a priority agenda to establish that his son had been sexually assaulted when he hadn't.

1:26Speaker 1:I'm Nancy Glass and this is season three A Burden of Guilt, Episode six. The DA's decision. The town of Steamboat Springs, Colorado, comes alive every winter. That's when tourists and part time residents arrived with their ski gear, but Kenny and Cindy lived there year round.

1:50Speaker 3:It's about twelve thirteen thousand people. It's mostly a resort town, but it has a really nice home family feel here.

1:58Speaker 1:There are little shop stores and even a farmer's market in downtown Steamboat. It's also where you'll find the children's store Cindy owned, called in Celebration of Kids.

2:10Speaker 3:The whole idea was, if you got a birthday party, come here. If you got an anniversary party, come here. Any kind of celebration come here. That was the whole purpose of that store.

2:20Speaker 1:The ten thousand square foot store felt more like a mall. It had everything from clothing to a pottery studio to an arcade, all geared towards young children and their parents. With Kenny's help, Cindy turned it into the local gathering place for families.

2:38Speaker 3:It started out really well, and then the accusation took its toll on the business.

2:44Speaker 1:The accusation. As soon as word of Kenny's arrest spread through the small town, the whispers began and it affected Cindy's business.

2:55Speaker 3:December is one of my biggest months for retail. It was my worst December.

2:59Speaker 1:Wherever even the manager heard from shoppers.

3:04Speaker 3:Some woman came up and said, how does it feel to be working for a pedophile?

3:08Speaker 4:That was tough.

3:09Speaker 3:That was really tough.

3:11Speaker 5:They're shaming Cindy through the manager of we know who they are. We're never shopping in your place again, you know. So when we started hearing that, we knew that it had gotten out and it was circulating, and really the whole town knew about it.

3:23Speaker 1:To be clear, Kenny was never charged with sexually assaulting Cindy's Sun, but the implication was there.

3:31Speaker 6:Yeah, all my friends kind of ditched me. That was hard, and yeah it was It was embarrassing to even call for groceries.

3:43Speaker 4:Really, it was.

3:45Speaker 3:Humiliating.

3:51Speaker 1:At the time, Kenny was facing a misdemeanor child abuse charge and if convicted, he could spend up to three hundred and sixty four days in jail. And then just before Christmas in twenty nineteen, the District Attorney's office up Kenny's charge to felony child abuse. They alleged that Kenny gave Cindy's son a serious bodily injury, and if convicted of that, Kenny would face up to sixteen years in prison.

4:20Speaker 5:I'm just kind of like shaking, you know, scared, you know, like you know what's going on, because this is scary.

4:28Speaker 1:The case against Kenny was mounting, and so was the pressure. That's when one of Kenny's lawyers dropped a truth bomb.

4:35Speaker 5:He goes, jury's when it comes down to sexual abuse, they don't want to hear it, and they're just going to throw you to the wolves. They're going to prosecute you to the end and you won't have a chance.

4:45Speaker 1:Kenny's lawyer suggested he cut a deal.

4:48Speaker 5:It's like, look, you should just plead down on this one, say that I did it and I'm guilty. And I was just like, no way in the hell am I going to admit that I did anything, because I did not do any and that's what I told him.

5:02Speaker 1:Kenny said, no deal. To take a plea would be assuming the label of sexual predator. Worse yet, child sexual predator. Kenny wasn't one, and he fight to the death before wearing that label.

5:16Speaker 5:Sinny and I are both fighters, so we were going to conquer this together.

5:23Speaker 1:From the very beginning. Cindy and Kenny said there was no wedgie and there was no sexual abuse. Both are convinced this was entirely manufactured by Cindy's ex husband, Steve. That was clear to Cindy, especially when she read through the DHS report, and it took her months to get it.

5:44Speaker 3:I'm reading this report and I'm reading how many times my son is saying, yeah, my dad is telling me these things. Who wouldn't look at that and say what's wrong with that? And start interviewing and start talking to dad?

5:58Speaker 1:And Cindy took issue with the report's timeline.

6:02Speaker 3:I could tell him their whole timeline was wrong.

6:05Speaker 1:Her son said the alleged wedgie happened on a Sunday night at Cindy's condo while they were watching the movie Rango. But here's the thing. Cindy rented that movie herself. She kept the receipt, and she knows her son's timeline was off. It couldn't have happened on Sunday night.

6:24Speaker 3:It's impossible. And here's why we literally have a receipt for buying the movie. We watched half the movie on Wednesday, finished the rest of it after they were riding their bikes on Thursday and the boys left Friday morning.

6:36Speaker 1:Cindy believes her son's brand new bike caused his injury. He was riding it for a couple of hours wearing board shorts without underwear. Cindy said she gave all this information to investigators and just talking about this reporting is difficult. It opens a deep wound.

6:55Speaker 3:He said, it's about her it on Thursday while watching the movie, he said, it's but hurt and I have bike information. I have a receipt for the bike that very day, and you guys just completely ignore it.

7:06Speaker 1:To prove the point, Cindy took video of her son on his new bike and then sent it to Kamala, the DHS caseworker.

7:16Speaker 3:And I'm thinking, I'm going and giving this information and the case just be like, oh makes perfect sense. No, that video was used against me.

7:30Speaker 1:In Kamala's report, she listed Cindy putting her son on the bike as an example of Cindy not following her advice.

7:39Speaker 3:She was upset. She goes, well, you talked about their interviews with them and gave them a new narrative about the injury, and I said, I didn't give them a new narrative. I said, I'm asking about other information that was not even included in the interview. So I was punished for providing information that was so common sense and logical that it blew their other theory out of the water.

8:03Speaker 1:There was another thing about the DHS report that frustrated Cindy. The report referenced numerous recorded interviews with the children, forensic interviews where her kids were being asked about alleged abuse, but Cindy hadn't received copies of those. As the charges grew more serious and the case got more complex, Cindy and Kenny both hired new lawyers.

8:30Speaker 2:My name is Chris Decker. I am the attorney that represented Kenny Hamm.

8:36Speaker 1:Chris grew up in rural Colorado and has practiced law for over thirty years. Many of those defending people accused of sexual assault.

8:45Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't wake up one morning and decided to be specializing in sexual assault defense. It kind of came to me through my time at the public Defenders system. I tried a number of very difficult, fairly high profile sexual assault cases.

9:02Speaker 1:And when he got involved with Kenny's case, it.

9:05Speaker 2:Appeared from the outset that Steve was essentially held bent on getting a sexual assault prosecution and conviction on Kenny hamp When you hear the word sexual assault or sexual assault on a child, we all have an emotional reaction, feelings of hatred and punishment, and if we're not careful, we lower the standard or the bar to prove whether or not someone has done a horrible act such as sexual assault on a child.

9:36Speaker 1:Once Chris finally got copies of the police reports, forensic interviews, and meetings with the investigators, he immediately went back to where it all began. That weekend trip to Las Vegas. Just before they left for the airport, the boy's grandmother, Alida, said she first noticed her grandson walking funny. Here's audio of Elida sharing misinformation with detective Ciphers.

10:03Speaker 7:He was walking with his legs apart, which he never does.

10:08Speaker 1:Alada told investigators the boy was in such pain that weekend that Steve had to carry him. But Chris wasn't so sure.

10:17Speaker 2:Throughout this weekend, you know, he's seen jumping on a bed with a smile on his face. He's at a water park. They're going to shows.

10:28Speaker 1:That weekend in Vegas. Steve posted a photo to Facebook of his allegedly injured son jumping on a hotel bed. Chris also learned that Steve took the boys to a jousting tournament, a water park, and even an amusement park where the boy went on some rides. The one place they didn't go in Vegas urchin care.

10:49Speaker 3:Or the er.

10:52Speaker 2:There was a real dichotomy between the activities they were engaged in and what they said the child condition was. It just didn't add up that they would have custody of a child in severe pain and not call any doctors, not take the child to urgent care or pediatrician in Las Vegas.

11:16Speaker 1:Something else that stood out to Chris. Alida told Detective Ciphers that while they were in Vegas, her grandson told her how Kenny abused him.

11:27Speaker 7:Told me that Kenny had put something hard it is behind and angel mey it felt like his body was getting rapped apart.

11:37Speaker 2:This child shared with her that Kenny had abused him, but she said that she didn't share that information. She just didn't feel like it was her role, which didn't sound believable at all. If he's suffering and he has told her that something has been placed in his bottom. There's just no scenario where any parent or grandparent wouldn't either themselves take that child to see somebody, or at least tell a professional what's going on. I mean, that's just beyond belief.

12:17Speaker 1:And then there were the photos Steve took in Vegas, the series of photos of his son's bottom. Here's what Elida told Detective Cipher's about those.

12:27Speaker 7:He saw his backside. We saw what it looked like, and it wasn't normal. There was a tear back there, there was a small flister in there, and he had a known bruising. You don't get that from Reigie.

12:40Speaker 1:We did not see those photos, so I asked Chris what he remembered.

12:45Speaker 2:What I saw in those photos was a fairly normal child's bottom I saw very very little, some slight reddening, and not a lot more. In one or two pictures, he was pulling his own butt cheeks apart, and then there was one with Christine's hand holding his buttocks open.

13:09Speaker 1:What Chris did find out normal was that Steve communicated with Cindy that weekend in Vegas, but not about their son's alleged injury. In fact, one minute before Steve took the first of several pictures of his son, he sent a message to Cindy.

13:26Speaker 2:Steve communicated with Cindy and told her that they had moved to the Mandalay Bay, but he was not telling her anything about his specific concerns about potential injury or cause of injury.

13:39Speaker 1:Chris wondered why Steve informed Cindy they were moving to a new hotel but didn't say a word about his concern for their son.

13:47Speaker 2:My first and lasting impression about seeing these photos was that it was telling me more about the person taking the pictures than about what was being done.

14:00Speaker 4:Picked it on them.

14:16Speaker 1:The same week that Kenny got arrested, he and Cindy were scheduled to close on the five bedroom house and Steamboat Springs that was supposed to be their dream home.

14:27Speaker 3:I'm under contract for this house and it closes within days of Kenny being interested, and I'm vacillating. I was like, do I buy it? Do I not? This is crazy? I don't know.

14:40Speaker 1:Cindy went through with the purchase, and she eventually moved in by herself. With charges still pending against Kenny, they felt it was best to be a part. Kenny felt like the entire town of Steamboat Springs had already convicted him, so he packed up his bags and drove their camper to a state park a few hours away.

15:03Speaker 5:I'm going from two years of sending the kids just an amazing life to living in a trailer park and a travel trailer by myself. I was a shut down machine of survival mode. I think that's naturally there to protect you against, you know, bad things, self harm.

15:25Speaker 1:His lawyer, Chris Decker, checked in on him.

15:29Speaker 2:He has told me those are the darkest hours because he knew he hadn't done anything. But you know, here he is falsely charged and he doesn't know what's going to happen to him.

15:44Speaker 5:I watched a lot of natural geographic and laying in bed twenty four hours a day, just not even paying attention to what's on TV, you know, History Channel or something like that. It was pretty depressing.

15:59Speaker 1:Meanwhile, Chris continued to comb through the discovery related to Kenny's case, especially that meeting Steve and Christine had with Detective Ciphers and the DHS caseworker Kamala Height.

16:11Speaker 2:In watching those interviews, a number of things jumped out. He showed up with notes.

16:19Speaker 1:Here's Steve talking with Kamela.

16:22Speaker 8:Do you want to go through the data that we have real quick?

16:24Speaker 7:So they say, no, mad y'all, what is what is the data?

16:27Speaker 3:Can you tell us what it is?

16:28Speaker 8:Why don't you go ahead and hand out yours and then I'll.

16:30Speaker 4:Hand off line.

16:32Speaker 1:During that meeting, Steve and Christine came in with what Steve referred to as data for the investigators.

16:39Speaker 8:This stuff right here is all about recent kids' health. So it's just kind of a snapshot of what we're dealing with. There's three years, how there's ten years of district binders of information.

16:51Speaker 5:But you know, I just you don't need that right now. If you want to come talk to us, that's where the dropbox.

16:56Speaker 8:We've already got him.

16:57Speaker 1:Set up a dropbox with ten years of history on his nine year old son. Exactly what history he's referring to, we don't know. He even told Detective Ciphers, if you need more, dude, I can data dump on you.

17:12Speaker 2:You see Steve and Christine really pressing the detective for criminal prosecution.

17:20Speaker 8:How do we get Cindy as theer a crime that's been teted?

17:23Speaker 2:And then Steve was constantly adding new information. Most of which was not true, to try to get a sexual assault prosecution.

17:34Speaker 1:He said. One example was what Steve told investigators about his son's exam with the sane nurse.

17:41Speaker 2:A sane nurse is simply a nurse practitioner who has been trained to collect photographs of any potential injuries, swabbing of any areas that may contain DNA.

17:56Speaker 1:Steve's son was examined by the sane nurse, and here's what's Steve said about that exam, Like, just take.

18:03Speaker 9:Our your nurse hat for a moment, right and just talk to me as a parent. What do you think She's like, Yeah, she is or something she said. I can't prove it and I don't know what it is, but she's like dying a legend. So I think that's the one thing everybody agrees is that it's not a legging.

18:20Speaker 2:He told the detective falsely that the sane nurse had told him that something definitely happened to this child, and that was not true. This was a father who was attempting to steer the criminal justice system with false narrative against Cindy and Kenny in order to take the children away from their mother.

18:50Speaker 1:If there was one moment that revealed Steve's motive. Chris said it was when Kamala asked Steve this question.

18:58Speaker 8:If you could wave a magic wand today, what would you want as far as a parenting agreement plan full custody.

19:05Speaker 2:Of the children. His answer was very clear, I want full custody of these kids, and that was his agenda from the start.

19:14Speaker 1:Chris said he found the timing of the abuse allegation to be suspect. He pointed to the company Cindy and Steve owned together while cat Minerals, and the lawsuit Cindy filed against Steve and another former colleague to get her fair share. According to the Denver Gazette, both sides ultimately agreed to a ten point five million dollars settlement.

19:37Speaker 2:And the payment of that settlement occurred only days before these allegations arose. So you have this confluence of situations where Steve had long wanted full custody of the kids, he had just made a large cash payment as settlement, and upop these allegations against Kennyham. There's no way that it's a coincidence.

20:11Speaker 1:It troubled Chris that Steve didn't take his son to see a doctor the weekend they were in Las Vegas. Instead, he took photos of his son's injury. Once they returned home to Steamboat Springs, that's when Steve first took his son to see his pediatrician, doctor Fountain.

20:29Speaker 2:What was significant about that first visit with doctor Fountain is that Steve had brought these photos, and so doctor Fountain was in the situation where she was trying to interpret what she was seeing on the photos and what she was seeing with her own eyes that day, and what she saw with her own eyes that day was a well child with no injuries. This was the beginning of what was a series of medical appointments that this child was brought to over the next days and weeks in order to try to generate evidence.

21:09Speaker 1:In addition to the appointment with doctor Fountain, the boy had an exam with a sexual assault nurse. That week. He also had a forensic interview, to additional appointments with doctor Fountain, as well as a visit to a local medical center and Steamboat and there was more. Late one night, Steve even drove three hours to take his son to yet another hospital where he was examined by two more doctors.

21:35Speaker 2:This child had been seen by numerous medical professionals, none of whom found any serious injury to this child.

21:44Speaker 1:Think about it, This nine year old boy went through a week being examined so closely, so many times, and each time the result was the same.

21:55Speaker 2:The doctor shopping was I believe, strong evidence that Steve had a priority agenda to establish that his son had been sexually assaulted when he hadn't.

22:07Speaker 1:Chris was also confused by the fact that Kenny was charged with a felony.

22:11Speaker 2:That was very strange to us at the time because there were no doctors who said anything about serious bodily injury, and we never got a straight answer from the deputy district attorney.

22:27Speaker 1:We got in touch with the district attorney.

22:31Speaker 10:My name is Matt Carson, the elected district attorney in the fourteenth Judicial District of Colorado, which is where Steamboat Springs is.

22:40Speaker 1:By the spring of twenty twenty, the district Attorney, Matt Carson had been looped into the case, which is unusual. Typically these cases are handled by the assigned prosecutor and the detective.

22:52Speaker 10:There was allegations of child abuse and potentially rising to the felony level, and it was becoming very messy very quickly, and so I was involved, maybe more than I would normally be.

23:04Speaker 1:He distinctly remembers Steve urging his office to file charges, and not just any charges.

23:11Speaker 10:The pressure to put the highest possible charges on mister hamp was unprecedented. I'd never seen it, and it went above and beyond what you would expect in terms of parental rage if they know that their child was victimized by somebody, I mean, any parent would be enraged by that.

23:29Speaker 1:The problem was when the DA reviewed the children's initial forensic interviews.

23:36Speaker 10:At no point during a forensic interview did either of the two children involved here reliably report that they had been a victim of sexual assault. I don't even think they reported it.

23:45Speaker 1:But he said, Steve kept pressing.

23:48Speaker 10:He wanted a felony charge, he wanted sexual these charges, and when we would explain that wasn't going to happen and why it wasn't going to happen, more than once he would report that, oh, now my children are telling me that this other thing happened and it is abuse. And if their father was telling me, they were now disclosing sexual abuse, we needed to vet that, so we would do another forensic interview.

24:09Speaker 1:So DA Carson made the decision to order another round of forensic interviews. In the initial interview, the boy had been vague about his accusation. He talked about a wedgie Kenny gave him just for fun, and then in his forensic interview seven months later, the boy's story had dramatically changed.

24:30Speaker 10:You know, that was that was a problem for me.

24:49Speaker 1:In September of twenty nineteen, each of Cindy and Steve's three children had a forensic interview. Seven months later, District Attorney Matt Carson ordered another round of forensic interviews for Steve's twin boys.

25:03Speaker 10:I was really reluctant to do yet another one.

25:07Speaker 1:Well, it isn't common for a second interview to happen, especially seven months later. The DA decided it was important based on the allegations Steve had been reporting.

25:18Speaker 10:Rather than go, you know, send a police officer to talk to these kids, we did another forensic interview, just trying to exercise due diligence.

25:27Speaker 1:The twin boys were nine years old and had spent the past seven months exclusively with their father, Steve and his wife Christine. That's because they had been taken away from their mother by the court.

25:40Speaker 10:When the forensic interview came back and I watched it, the story had changed many, many times. We see that sometimes, particularly with young children, the disclosure of ongoing abuse comes out in episodes, in chapters, and there are people smarter than me, psychiatrists and psychologists that can explain the science and psychology behind all of that. That's not uncommon. But the way it was changing here was very uncommon.

26:06Speaker 1:That's because his story changed completely this time. He said Kenny gave him a wedgie in the pool and even put his hand down his shorts in a hot tub. He added that the night before his birthday, Kenny gave him a glass of water that was laced with something. He explained that his dad and Christine believe Kenny put something in that water to make him sleep.

26:37Speaker 10:The red flags were getting bigger and more numerous at that point.

26:41Speaker 1:And listen to what else the boy said, and who.

26:45Speaker 7:Told you that Keny was sexually assaulted here? My d your dad told you told me what your dad said? He said, I'll you up and textually open.

26:57Speaker 2:I'm very nice, said what did that mean?

27:00Speaker 5:He shaid on me being like that? Kenny heard very very badly.

27:11Speaker 1:According to the boy, his dad said Kenny stuck something up him and that it was really wrong of him to do that.

27:22Speaker 10:The child was asked, why do you think this happened, and the answer was because my dad told me. It was really problematic. It was becoming very suspicious for parental coaching. Beyond suspicious, honestly.

27:36Speaker 7:But it was your dad that told you that Kenny had done it.

27:40Speaker 5:Now, after Kamal, after Camels.

27:48Speaker 10:That's when I knew not only was there a reasonable doubt about whether mister Hampton committed a crime, you know, there was stronger evidence that the allegations, the specific allegations were fabricated by the children, at a minimum grossly embellished at the hands of their father. That became crystal clear.

28:06Speaker 1:Hearing so much attributed to Steve was enough for the DA to make a decision about Kenny.

28:12Speaker 10:We had somebody charged who may be actually innocent, who's essentially being framed, and once you get to that point, you have to drop that case as quickly as possible, and that's what we did.

28:23Speaker 1:The last few months had been a painful whirlwind for Kenny. In October he was arrested and thrown in jail. He spent the night sleeping on the floor, charged with misdemeanor child abuse. That charge later grew to felony child abuse and his reputation it was destroyed. For months, people saw Kenny as a pariah. Then in June of twenty twenty, it was over. It was the news Kenny had been waiting months to hear.

28:57Speaker 5:I was striving when I got that news. And there's not too many times in your life where you can scream out loud and pure joy. And I did it, yes, you know, yelling and screaming and just pounding your fists on the cereal.

29:11Speaker 2:You know.

29:12Speaker 5:The character assassination is one thing that the repercussions in the legal system can be extreme. So the truth was so important. That was the most amazing, pure joy moment of my life. And I called Cindy right away and she was screaming like joy, just screaming happy. And I think it was a release point because of all the dread that was going on the past for both the calls.

29:42Speaker 1:With Kenny finally cleared of all child abuse charges, life seemed like it was ready to return to normal, as normal as it could be. Cindy returned to court in hopes of getting her children back. In the summer of twenty twenty. It custody hearing followed. It featured more than a dozen witnesses over nine days, and when it was over, Judge Mary Hope made a startling conclusion. A voice actor will read what Judge Hope said.

30:15Speaker 11:I will tell you I was not surprised to see the charges dismissed, but understand that we don't find people guilty or innocent. We find them guilty or not guilty. And the people don't always dismiss charges because someone's innocent. That isn't always what happens. And it's way too black and white and draconian to think of it that way. I believe something inappropriate occurred between mister Hamp and these children. Let me say it again.

30:44Speaker 1:I believe that.

30:45Speaker 11:Something inappropriate occurred between mister Hamp and these children. Okay, I'm not being careless. I am basing this on nine days of evidence, is what I'm doing. Nine days, all right, I can make the find it and I would posit that I am duty bound to do so, and I have done so, and I take that seriously. And after hearing everything, that's.

31:12Speaker 1:What I believe The ruling was another painful blow to Cindy.

31:18Speaker 3:It's unbelievable. It was almost like a punishment, like get on board here and you can see your kids if you just say this happened.

31:27Speaker 1:When the allegation that Kenny abused her son first came up, Cindy felt a lot of pressure to break up with him, but instead she chose to pursue the truth.

31:39Speaker 3:Because if I get rid of Kenny, that's almost like saying Kenny's guilty. Then I'm saying this happen. And that's even worse than saying no, this never happened. I'm going to make sure my kids no, this never happened. So I say no, no, I'm not doing it.

31:54Speaker 1:And now Cindy felt like she was asked to do that a second time, and once again she chose to stand by the truth. And while she fought to get her kids back, she and Kenny made another big decision. They sued Steve in civil court.

32:09Speaker 3:You heard Steve say in one of the interviews, how do we get Cindy?

32:13Speaker 4:Now?

32:14Speaker 3:I was always the target. Kenny was the collateral damage.

32:17Speaker 5:Sadly, I was highly upset at what I had to go through, what Steve did. It wasn't a monetary gain that I was going after. I was now after going to clear my name through a civil lawsuit and hold him liable for this.

32:32Speaker 1:This was a civil lawsuit, meaning the jail time wasn't at stake. Both sides were seeking monetary damages. For Cindy, it wasn't about money. It was about her three children.

32:45Speaker 3:The moment your rip kids away and they go to that other parent, well good luck, because now they got full control over that child's mind. And now the real abuse is really beginning, and you can't do anything about it, and you know it's happening as a mother. That's really frustrating.

33:02Speaker 1:What followed was a lengthy twenty two day trial, and in the courtroom secrets would be revealed.

33:09Speaker 2:I told the jury to keep their eyes on three things, the creation of evidence, the destruction of evidence, and the withholding of evidence.

33:18Speaker 1:Conversations came to light that no one was supposed to hear.

33:22Speaker 5:I had that secret recording.

33:24Speaker 2:This surreptitious tape recording suddenly showed up.

33:29Speaker 1:That's next time on Burden of Guilt. Thanks for listening. If you're enjoying Burden of Guilt, subscribe and review the series with five stars. Hopefully that helps other people find our show. Are you curious about what the people involved in this look like? Do you want to hear bonus content? Just check out our Instagram account at Glass Podcasts. You can reach out to the Burden of Guilt team at Burden of Guiltpod at gmail dot com. That's Burden of Guiltpod at gmail dot com. Burden of Guilt is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. This series is executive produced and hosted by me Nancy Glass, produced by Todd Gans, also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning. Additional production support provided by Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Leboard.

34:55Speaker 1:Our associate producer is Jade Abdul Malik. Our production manager is Kristin Mercurie. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crimecheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins and Dean Welsh. Audio mixing and mastering by Anna McLain and Matt Dalbecchio. The Burden of Guild theme is composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by my Music for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app or Apple podcasts.