Cowboys and Coalitions - Live from Jackson Hole with Nadav Eyal!

0:00[upbeat music] Hi, everybody. Welcome to Ask A Jew, where a secular, sinful Israeli speaks to her holy religious friend. I'm Yael, here with Chaia La and our new friend Nadav Eyal. Uh, when we thought, "Where are we gonna do the very first ever Ask A Jew live show?" We're like, "Clearly Jackson Hole, Wyoming, right?" [laughs] Yeah. This is... Well, this is where we're indigenous to, so I figured, where else would the Jewish people gather for such a talk, no? Yeah. It's also one of the...

0:35It's, like, a top three contender for where g- where we're going to open the compound. Yes. [laughs] Where we're gonna all hide. Yes. [laughs] Um, but we are very excited to have Nadav with us. Um, how many people here listen to Call Me Back? All right, so most people. I'm su- I'm, I'm not gonna even ask about Ask A Jew, 'cause I assume all of you. [laughs] [laughs] Uh, but Nadav, uh, is a writer for Yedioth Ahronoth. He's also a senior scholar at Columbia University's School of International and Public Affairs, which we'll talk about a little bit when we wanna feel a little optimistic. And you know him as an Arc Media contributor.

1:10You hear him a lot on Call Me Back. We're super excited to have him here with us. He did buy me a margarita before this. [laughs] So I'm just saying I don't want- It, it's actually a mojito. It's a mojito? Oh, aw- But I see that you alr- already lost track, Yael, and- [laughs] Well, that- That's good for me. Yeah... right? The margarita is what I had at home before I came. [laughs] Yeah, okay. [laughs] Um, all right. Chaia La, do you wanna kick it off? You... By the way, we can't interrupt each other now, for those of you who listen to our podcast, because we have one microphone, which is very smart of Mary. This is actual torture.

1:43Okay. Nadav, this is my first question. What chance do I have of winning the Israeli election? Can I be the prime minister? Can you? Uh, can I call you Chaia La? Sure. Can I call you CL? Yes, I allow. Can we do? Because we're here- We're close enough... in Wyoming- We're close enough... and every time I'm gonna say Chaia La. [laughs] I'm gonna say CL. This is a microaggression from a Hiloni Israeli to an Ultra-Orthodox. It's happening live right now. We, we, we call it, like, secular Zionism. Sec- [laughs] exactly. Uh, I, I... First of all, I wanna thank you- [laughs]... for having me, uh, here.

2:19Uh, and I did listen to episodes of Ask A Jew- Oh, thank you... even before you invited me over. Wow. And I think it's an excellent podcast. Yeah. Uh, and to those of you who are not yet insiders of Call Me Back, Dan makes me say this every place I go, uh, so I, I'm saying this right now. You should become insiders of Call Me Back. Shout-out to Dan Senor. Thanks, Dan. That's the camera. Thanks, Dan. You see me? Yeah. We love you, Dan. Okay. We love you. Yeah. [laughs] Uh, and to your question, because I'm not gonna dodge any questions tonight- [laughs]...

2:54uh, I think you can be the Israeli prime minister, but the question, as always, is, are you running? Yeah. [laughs] It's... The announcement is coming. I'm just deciding which of the 97 parties I wanna join. [laughs] I didn't decide yet. Maybe Ra'am. Yeah. Well, that's, that's- I'm gonna join-... that's my trouble these days. Yeah. And this is what I need to, to tackle as a journalist these days. I really... I think I could throw off the election if I joined the, like, Arab parties. I feel like that could... It could make the news, don't you think? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, uh, seriously, that could make the news- Yeah...

3:25and, uh, because it's bre- breaking the barriers. Correct. And, and- Bridge-building... yeah, and that's, uh- I think so... something that's a good story for the media. Then we'll talk later. We'll talk later. Chabad and- Chabad, come on... like, the Islamic Movement. [laughs] I mean- We can talk about that- Wow... if you want, Chaia La. No, moving on, moving on- Okay. [laughs]... to, uh, you know, other issues. No. How's your trip been so far to Wyoming? What do you think of Wyoming so far? Um, it's, it's my first time here. I'm here with my family. We're having a fantastic time.

3:55There are people here in the audience, like Marie and Cliff and Julie, that have been showing us around, and, uh, it's, it's wonderful. It's, uh, it's... The question is only why we didn't come earlier, and the answer, of course, is because it's so far away [laughs] from, from Israel. Uh, but, uh, it's, it's a pleasure being here, and I've also heard about this community, so I think it's special that, uh, we're talking w- with... Not such a big community- Mm-hmm...

4:23but a community in which people know each other. It's very different to most events I, I usually do. Yeah. That's right. And I... This is actually my fifth time here, and, and Josh... Where's Rabbi Josh? He's given me permission to start complaining about the tourists now when I come. [laughs] So, um, so we mentioned the, the elections, and Chaia La may or may not, you know, be the s- the, the October surprise, as we say. But let's kinda... Let's get the vegetables. Let's eat our vegetables first- Okay...

4:49before we get onto the fun stuff about Iran and antisemitism. Okay. Uh, and let's talk about the election. So two-part question. Mm-hmm. Are you feeling optimistic or pessimistic? And you don't have to say anything else, just say optimistic or pessimistic, and... about the election. And also, you know, I live... I'm born and raised in Israel. I consume the media. I read, I watch all the channels, and I still have a hard time figuring out what's going on. So maybe if you wanna give people, like, a five-minute primer on who's running and what are, what are the odds. Okay.

5:23Do you wanna time me? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, Mary will- No, because I can go for, like, two hours only on, on the Israeli elections. No, I'll stop you. I'll stop you. Okay. Thanks, Chaia. Don't worry. Uh, so first of all, as to the question if I'm optimistic or, or pessimistic really depends on my, uh, politics, right? Uh, I think that generally speaking, uh, people who want this prime minister gone are usually more optimistic than people who want this prime minister to stay in power.

5:50And the reason is very clear, uh, and that's the most important reason right now. According to most polls in Israel, and by most polls in Israel, I mean every single poll beside the polls that are made by Channel 14 that is somewhat affiliated with this coalition- Netanyahu is losing these elections, uh, or right now, this date, when the polls are being held, this is how we should say it, he's losing the elections. And this has been the case for the last two and a half years, actually three years.

6:22So according to these polls, Netanyahu is losing the elections even before October 7, 2023. Actually, since March of 2023, he doesn't hold the majority, uh, of most Israelis to this bloc. Now, could, can this change? This is the part in which the journalist is sort of hedging, and I need to do that as a journalist. Netanyahu is, uh, probably the world's best campaigner in any democracy. He won more elections fair and square than anyone else. Winning an election in Israel is not as simple as in this country in the sense that the, the, the votes are not given to a personality, they're given to a party.

7:04That party needs to form a coalition. So when I say that he's losing the elections, I mean that his bloc is losing the election, that bloc of parties. And right now, uh, it seems pretty bad, uh, as far as Netanyahu is concerned. And that's also the reason that the elections are held on October 27. If Netanyahu would've thought that he could win the elections before October 27, he could absolutely have an earlier elections. He decided to have it at the last possible date legally because he's just getting these, these bad numbers as far as he is concerned.

7:42The person running against Netanyahu, Yair Lapid, is, is generally seen as, of course, less experienced than he is in politics, but right now more reliable. And he's getting a few points more than Netanyahu in that indicator that we do in Israeli polls of what we call suitable to be prime minister. So he's, like, polling 40% and Netanyahu is polling 36%. I wouldn't bank on that margin at all, but it tells you that if the idea is that nobody else, Israelis can't imagine anyone else to be prime minister, according to polls, that's not the case.

8:22And, and there's always someone in this audience that say, "These are only polls," right? And that's absolutely true. But I, I don't have any other analytical way to speak about these elections. It's a small country, but I'm not gonna make any sort of, uh, bets unless I can say that there's something credible behind those. And I think that three years, a body of three years of election polls is, is, is pretty good. What can change that? Just to end with that note.

8:53I would say that, like everything in Israel, it, it all relates to security, and I see Yaakov sitting here, and he gave the security brief earlier today. I hope that some of you were lucky enough to be here when he did that because it's very important to understand that elections in Israel could be decided, and they could be turned overnight. Uh, everything works in a very quick pace in Israel. So the fact that Netanyahu's been losing for three years, this could change overnight. And the reason it could change is because of basically of security.

9:24And specifically, if you see a conflict, uh, a wider conflict in the West Bank with a Pa- with Palestinians, or God forbid you see some sort of conflict within the Israeli society between Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs or Israeli Palestinians. If you see that, that could play well for the prime minister. This is how it works in Israeli politics. So I'm gonna stop now, not to bore people too much with Israeli politics, but, uh, that was, that, that was a brief towards the elections. You did a good job. Okay.

9:56[laughs] I know you're new to this, so I'm, I'm very proud of you. Thank you. Um, I have a question that I think American Jews think about a lot, and I don't know if Israelis think about this in the same way, so I'm curious what you think. I often hear the argument that it's Bibi we hate, it's Likud, it's the coalition, et cetera. Mm. Otherwise, you know, we'll be perfectly fine with Israel, or we'll be okay with Israel, you know? What- Who says that?

10:20Like, a lot of Americans, a lot of E- Europeans, people who are- Mm-hmm... anti-Israel or anti-Zionist or whatever they wanna say about that. Or even many Jews. I th- I, I hear this all the time from Jews themselves who are like, "I love Israel, but I hate Bibi, and I hate this, and I hate that," you know, all, all of that. Does anything change for real if Lapid is elected or if Bennett wins? Or, like, what actually changes that a person who's paying attention, who wants to care about Israel, what actually changes?

10:52What's gonna actually make a difference? Not for Israelis, 'cause I understand there's a lot of internal things happening. But as diaspora Jews or the we- you know, the West looking in, what will actually change with the new government? I, I think it's a great question, and I think the answer is that, um, my experience is that people who hate Israel in principle, people who don't only despise a piece of policy or object to something that, uh, the Israeli government is doing, people who hate Israel don't really talk about Netanyahu too much.

11:29Because for them, it's actually sometimes useful to portray Israel as just one color and one sort of policy. My experience is that they deem the entire project illegitimate to begin with, and they, they don't wanna have anything to do with it. For these people, every time that they see on their Twitter feed or on Facebook anything that is negative about something that Israelis did or Israel did, they just want this to be shared all over the place.

12:00And, and there they can be vindicated that their indictment of Israel was, was justified. So, so for them, I think it w- it's gonna be a, a terrible day if Israel, for instance, turns to some sort of a peace initiative. Right? And, and I, I, I'm not only speaking as a, a sort of a speculation. I know this because every time that Israel did something like that, whether it was the Oslo Accords or the disengagement from Gaza, Israel withdrawing from the Gaza Strip wholly and completely, evacuating by force every settlement, uh, getting the IDF out of Gaza, signing agreements with the World Bank so that Palestinians would be able to get that- those greenhouses and grow their crops where those settlements once stood.

12:47So if you listen to that, to that crowd... And I was in London a couple of years later, I was doing my master's there. Uh, so they said it was just a ploy by the Israelis. They- it's a, it's again the, those, those smart Jews. You know, they, they evacuated Gaza. They, they gave Gaza to the Palestinians, but the truth is that this is some sort of a, you know, a cabal of some sort to try to somehow, um, somehow get their way by evacuating, which is what they demanded that Israel does from, from the beginning. I think that if Israel will have a different government, it will be much easier.

13:26Uh, I'm not saying that as a sort of an argument to replace the government. I'm saying that really is what I see from speaking with foreign media all the time, and by all the time I mean, like, twice today and another conversation tomorrow about towards the Israeli elections. That my experience is that having a prime minister that is not seen, uh, by many in the West today as toxic will help Israel basically pushing its narrative. And the fact that you will have just a prime minister there that nobody knows his name, he's just the Israeli prime minister, and there isn't a baggage.

14:05Some people in this country, uh, love Netanyahu because he, he, he's, he's seen as, uh, supporting, uh, President Trump. Some people in this country don't. But if you have a prime minister that seems to be more bipartisan, that takes out some of the sting away, some of the sting away. So I think that the most important thing, but it's not the replacing of the prime minister himself, although that is crucial in terms of changing the narrative. It's also that Israel is n- cannot remain being the top of the news cycle for another two or three years. Yael's only voting for the best looking prime minister, so I'll let you- Yeah, slim, slim, slim pickings this time.

14:49So you're gonna go for, like, a Yoaz Handel candidate- Probably... or someone like that? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm a little disappointed in Bennett. I think we, we, we could do better if we're looking at a, somebody who was, like, a combat soldier- He's not bad looking... and you know. Um- He's not bad looking. Yeah, I l- He has a tiny yarmulke. I love it. Yeah. [laughs] He was... Yep, m- that's more your demographic. I like it. Yeah. That wa- that was a Chabad kind of, uh- [laughs] I'm looking. Arrogance kind of, uh- I like it... his tiny yarmulke. Okay.

15:14[laughs] I don't know how it stays on his head, but I admire it. By, by the force of Hashem. H- yeah. It keeps it on his head. But you know that the Sayeret Matkal guys- Yeah... they're usually, like, smaller. They, they don't really... They're not big in the room, but they- Yeah... they do, uh, do stuff. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. [laughs] Um, so I just to kind of put a pin in the, in the Israeli election discussion, do you think there are gonna be any, any big surprises? And I know, you know- Oh, yeah... journalists love to predict. Yes.

15:46There are gonna be amazing surprises. [laughs] I know journalists love predictions- Yeah... because they can then go... But I don't know. My prediction as somebody who doesn't know anything about anything is that Lieberman is gonna be the big, uh, election surprise because a lot of people who don't wanna vote for Netanyahu but still don't wanna be seen as voting for anybody who is anywhere close to the left might vote for Lieberman. Hm. Is there anything we're missing? I think that's very possible.

16:14Uh, there, there is always, like, the last two weeks surprise in Israeli elections. And again, it's very different from, from the US. When you come to the last two to three weeks, it's, it's either gonna be this guy or the other, right? This is how it works. But in Israel, we, we look at parties within the bloc, and these parties are really important, and that could change. Uh, and that could also sway the blocs away, and it could bring someone closer to be a prime minister and someone just destroy his chances altogether. So if you're asking me to make a prediction that is very specific, uh, I, I would say that we would probably see one of these pa- two or three of these right-wing moderate parties that are not Netanyahu combining forces. Mm.

17:02It's gonna happen at the beginning of September, and they're gonna, they're gonna run together. Yeah. Either they're gonna run together with, with Lieberman, or they're gonna run together in some, some other form. And the main question is not the election itself, and this is where it becomes complicated. It's the coalition conversations and talks- Yeah... after the elections. So the question is, for instance, we have a party of people who deserted the Likud, who left the Likud. Uh, will they go with Netanyahu? Are they really working their way in Netanyahu's service to some extent?

17:34Because these voters who are voting for them think that they are an alternative to the Likud, but they'll join a Netanyahu government in a coalition. Or the reason that they withdrew from the Likud is because they wanna destroy Netanyahu's chances. And I, I don't know the answer to that. Now, they're doing something really interesting. So if you're a lefty journalist and you call them up and you say, "What are you gonna do?" They tell you, "Are you crazy? We left the Likud in order to give Netanyahu another term in office? Are you nuts?

18:04We're risking our political life to do that." And if someone else calls them who is seen as a right-wing journalist, they go, "Are you crazy? We're gonna go with the lefties? We fought these people all our lives. They're gonna go with the Arab parties. No way we're gonna join them." And they think that we don't talk with each other. [laughs] That's a big mistake. That, you know, the, the, the th- the thinking, the, the divide within journalists is as such that we don't kind of... We don't share sources, but we share information, and we speak with each other.

18:41So we will never say, "This guy told me that," but we do understand this game that they're playing with us. Mm-hmm. What's the truth? I don't know. You know? Israeli politics is known, um, you know, to be based on credibility and integrity. Uh... [laughs] There was one- There was a- There was somebody like that once... That was a, there was a pause until people laughed. Yeah. Maybe they, they didn't read too much news- Wait. No, there was Benny Begin-... here in Jackson... who used to ride the bus 20 years ago. Okay. Yeah. That was him. [laughs] Yeah. That was him. [laughs] Uh, do you think... How big of a, of, um, I guess, a decision-making factor for the Israeli public do you think the issue of having a coalition with the Arab parties?

19:24Because if we're talking about, you know, the anti-Netanyahu block, the big question is can they form a coalition without, or with or without the Arab parties, right? Mm-hmm. Do you think people are deciding whether or who to vote for based on what the chances are that they might bring in, uh, the Arab parties into the coalition? I, I think it's a crucial question for Israeli voters that are right-wingers, absolutely. Uh, and, and, and I think that any denial of that would be just, uh, extremely political.

19:57Uh, first of all, a- about the notion of Arab parties, I wanna say something about that. These are not Arab parties. Uh, you don't have, like, Jewish parties and Arab parties. These, these are parties that Arabs vote for usually and founded by Arabs running Arab candidates. But for instance, one of the, these parties is the Israeli Communist Party that has been there since 1948. Even before '48. Has, you know, Jewish voters and, and m- and many others, and we label those Arab parties.

20:26But we just heard that a member of Knesset that was running with the centrist, Yair Lapid, is now gonna join Ra'am, which is, uh, an Arab party based on the Islamic movement in Israel. Which is, by the way, ex- considered the most moderate of all Arab parties, and has joined the previous government. So the Israeli political sphere is much more interesting and nuanced than the way that people sometimes try to describe it, and I think that's, that's an important point. Uh, one of the things that the Likud is running the cam- their campaign on is a sentiment in Israel, and politics these days are mainly sentiment. The sentiment is that after October 7, uh, there is a lot of suspicion and skepticism towards any idea of shared life in Eretz Israel, Eretz Israel, Palestine, between these two people.

21:27And for people who are right-wingers, the prospect of having a government that will have parties within it that have any tendency to Arab or Palestinian nationalism or to Islamism is something that is seen as tzemah ba'ichal. Uh, Chayele will translate, uh, Bert and I- Luster for my people... an abomination. An abomination. An abomination. Uh, [laughs] but thank you, Yael, for that. Yes. Yes. Thank you. That should be the name of our podcast. Yes. It's a school after all, and you know.

22:03So, so, um, for them, it's, it's something that they're pressing very hard, the Likud is pressing very hard, of course, forgetting that Netanyahu is the prime minister who legitimized alliance with Arab parties and invited Mansour Abbas to his coalition. And Mansour Abbas physically sat in the prime minister's office, um, the prime minister's home, sorry, and he was invited to his coalition when Netanyahu was trying to garner his 61 members of Knesset to have a majority.

22:36And only after Netanyahu legitimized that from the right wing did Bennett and Lapid form a coalition with Mansour Abbas. At any rate, to the question, I suspect that we will not see a coalition with Arab parties, but we might see a coalition that is supported from the outside by an opposition that is of Arab parties that support parts of that coalition policies, not allowing the coalition to fail, but not formally being part of the coalition. And I think this is highly likely to happen, and this is the reason Netanyahu is so worried. Netanyahu is looking at the polls, and he's seeing that right now it's about 68/52 against him. That's, that's the numbers.

23:24These are the numbers. 67/53. 66, uh, 54 in a good day. And he's seeing these numbers, and he knows that part of these members of Knesset are Arab parties members, but he also knows that if they get, if the opposition gets anything beyond 63, 64, uh, he's probably gonna lose the elections and not form the next government. I'm gonna change the subject slightly, but it's my podcast, so I can do that. And if it's, when it's your turn, you can change the subject the way you want to.

23:57Um, but I, since I'm a little girl, I've always wanted to ask Nadav Eyal this question. I always thought in my head- That, you're- Since- You're sort of exposing my age. [laughs] But yeah, go, go ahead. We're literally the same age. But since I'm five years old, I thought, if I ever get a chance to talk to Nadav Eyal, this is what I wanna ask him, and I'm gonna indulge my- myself for a second. I grew up obviously in the Chabad world, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe when, you know, he passed away over 30 years ago now, but was-- had a lot to say about Israeli politics and the military and peace, et cetera.

24:32And his position always was very strongly that Israel has to be strong. Strength and might and power is how we deal with our neighbors and our enemies, and he was not a big, huge believer in the idea of diplomacy and, uh, conferences and Camp David retreats and, you know, kumbaya singing. He felt very strongly about power and might and strength. And I'm curious if you can comment on how you view that idea today, sort of in retrospect since the Oslo Accords and since everything that we've seen for the last, you know... Well, he passed away in 1994.

25:15So how, how do-- how would you respond to that sort of outlook of Israel's position a- and its positioning, I would say, in the world? So, so of course, this is a, this is a trick question because, Chaya, this gets me... You know, I can get in trouble with the entire Chabad global community. Which means- We'll always love you... you know, which means, uh, if I ever get stuck in Goa, India or something, they're gonna go, "We heard you on that podcast saying something that the Lubavitcher Rebbe wouldn't have liked."

25:45But I'm gonna- It's on my WhatsApp already. It's ready to go- Okay... whatever you say. I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try. Um, the, the main question is what, what is strength? What is real power? And I'll give you an example. Uh, Israel is an extremely powerful country, militarily speaking, of course. Uh, but Israel was attacked on October 7 by Hamas that launched a genocidal attack against, uh, Israel's southern communities. And it-- if it wouldn't have s- been stopped by the IDF, probably reached the, the center of Israel. Uh, then on October 8, Hezbollah attacked Israel. Then the Houthis attacked Israel.

26:28Uh, then Iran, because Israel had a hit on an Iranian general that was launching or coordinating attacks of Hezbollah in Damascus, Iran attacked Israel in the largest projectile attack in history. That happened in April of 2024. And in October, Iran attacked Israel again because, uh, Israel had another assassination. And what does it mean about Israeli power? What you want to have is to have a sort of power, both soft power and hard power, that deters your enemies from attacking you.

27:17It's not about having a hard-hit response as it is about creating an environment in which people won't want to attack you because, first of all, because they're afraid of, of the reaction, and secondly, maybe because they don't wanna do that because they have maybe treaties with you. Just imagine a Middle East in which President Carter and Menachem Begin and Anwar Sadat wouldn't have signed the peace treaty between Israel's most mortal enemy, its nemesis, its most dangerous enemy in history, Egypt, which they did at the end of the 1970s.

28:02Just imagine what kind of Middle East this would have been. Now, do-- does the Egyptian public love us? They, they don't. Uh, you know, is it safe to go with a Israeli flag, uh, on the streets of Cairo? I, I, I would not recommend that. Um, how many lives were saved? Uh, how did the Middle East change? However, if you're banking on these agreements to that comment of the Rebbe, if you, if you think that the reason that they're gonna have these agreements is because they believe in kumbaya, is because they believe they need to accept you in the region, the answer was given by David Ben-Gurion, who adopted the Jabotinsky principle of the iron wall. The iron wall doesn't mean that Israel is an iron wall.

28:56It means that we will have a military force that will be our iron wall, and we will have a window open at the top of that iron wall just to check if our enemies are already convinced they can't kick us out. And if they are convinced, we're gonna have peace with them. This is what Jabotinsky said. And by the way, this is the first piece of reading that I give my students. That original article, not an article about that article, but that article by Jabotinsky that was adopted by David Ben-Gurion, an archenemy, ideologically speaking, of Jabotinsky, as principles of Israeli security doctrine.

29:36So Sparta, we will forever live on our swords? Absolutely not. That's not the Zionist idea. That is absolutely the opposite of the Zionist idea. But on the other hand, never ever go into these illusions that you are part of the region, you are totally accepted. Always listen to what the populace is telling you, what the grassroots is telling you. If they don't like you, you're in trouble. And by the way, this is part of the reason I'm more worried about what's happening in this country.

30:12I think that Israel was, uh, that the US was such a great ally to Israel because so many Americans supported Israel, and this has eroded. And, and because of that, I'm more worried as an Israeli t- for the fate of that alliance. It could still get challenged at Chabad Okay. What did- [laughs] Did I do... It was fine? Yeah, she- Okay... it's already in the- Am I getting a Herschel for this? Yes? Okay. [laughs] Um, t- to paraphrase a, a, a local leader here, I guess, uh, um, speak softly and, and carry a big stick would be the doctrine.

30:45Yeah, but carrying a bis- a big stick in our region is, is very, very difficult. Mm-hmm. Um, one of the things, uh, I, I, I write about is, is surprises. One of the problems with, with, uh, su- surprises and specifically strategic surprises is that they, they almost always work. Uh, and this is something people don't take into account. They al- they always say, "Oh, how could we be so surprised? We, we have this, these intelligence services and we have this and that." Surprises, if they are planned well and they don't leak, work- Mm...

31:18at the beginning. The, the, the question is what happens after the beginning, right? What happens after Pearl Harbor? What happens after 9/11? What happened after October 7th? These are the real questions there. Mm-hmm. So it's not only about carrying a big stick. And that, that's one of the problems of Israel. Israel is a small country. It can't allow to be surprised this way because o- one surprise too many, and we're done. And this is, this is where we live, and we need to understand that. Yeah.

31:49There's, um, there's a type of antisemitism that's almost complimentary to Jews, and I think one of it is I see a lot on Twitter where people say, "There is no way Netanyahu and the IDF didn't know about October 7th. They definitely planned it. Why? Because they're just so good at, like, intelligence and military, and there's no way they, they wouldn't have known." So- Yeah... just something interesting to think about. Um, but you mentioned being, being worried about the US. Um, you know, we have a saying in Hebrew, uh, [speaks foreign language] You know, things, things that you can see from here, you can't see from there.

32:24You've been in the US for two years now? Or- Less than two years. Less than two years. But I, I'm not re- You know, on and off, right? Yeah. Like seven... Yeah. Yeah. Not really. [laughs] Depends. Like in the last month, I, I've s- spent more, most of the time in Is- He's homeless. It's really sad. Okay. [laughs] Yeah. We're, we're gonna col- we're gonna collect, uh... We're gonna put the GoFundMe later- Yeah... after. Um, what have you, uh, learned, or maybe what, what kind of surprised you? What's changed in the way, uh, you view Israel from here, from the outside looking in?

32:55First of all, I, I st- try not to learn about countries, specifically not a country as big as the US, because of my, my kind of personal interactions with people. I find it... I, I'm speaking as a political journalist. It's, it's, it's the typical political conversation that people have on their dinner tables. They go, "Oh, but I... You know, I have an aunt and, and she always voted for Democrats, and now she's, she's-" Wait. Isn't that Thomas Friedman's entire shtick, though- [laughs]... that he goes and talks to cab drivers? I, I love, I, I love reading Tom Friedman. Uh, and I find value in it. But, but to- [laughs] To...

33:28But, but th- this entire kind of anecdotal, oh, from that anecdote I'm gonna create something bigger, I don't like that. I go for big data. And by the way, that's the reason why when I came here before 2016, I, I, the big data was, of course, that Hillary's gonna win in the polls, but if you would look specifically in certain counties, you go to Pennsylvania, other, be more, more, um, eh, more interesting. What I learned here is mostly about the Jewish community.

34:00And because my exposure has been so high to the Jewish community in this country, and one of the things that I started thinking about is the difference between how Israeli Jews experience the world and, uh, Jewish Americans experience the world. And one of these issues is, of course, the difference between a majoritarian group within the society, that's the Israeli Jews, of course, and between m- a minority thinking in a society. And I've written about that.

34:30I don't know if all of you are already signed up to my Substack, but I guess you should. Uh, that one of the key differences that I found is that we, we Israeli Jews tend to think about ourselves as minorities, right? Because my grandfather lost his entire family in the Holocaust, and because this is how we grew up, and we're a small country, and we're surrounded by people who don't want us. But we really walk the land as a majority, as people used to walk in this country, like, I don't know, 50 years ago, uh, people who are white Protestants, right? That this is the majority.

35:16This is the people who founded this country, et cetera, et cetera. But people who grew up as minorities are completely, their mindset is completely different, specifically Jews. Because they still hold the tradition of the diaspora, and that tradition is very different than the Israeli tradition. And this doesn't go through your genes, and it can't be taught in, in your history books. You can try to affiliate this with yourself, but the Israeli, the Israelis never do that.

35:49Israelis come to explain about their experiences, but they don't come enough to learn from your own experiences and your parents' experiences because there, there, there is a wisdom in the diaspora. And that wisdom was the wisdom of our founding fathers, who almost every single one of them came and was born in the diaspora. These founding fathers, for instance, understood better, I think, injustice, injustice towards minorities. They understood better that the world is really, uh, suffers from a plague of antisemitism because when they grew up, someone said something in school, which is probably something that happened to almost everyone in this audience Something about your identity as a Jew.

36:36This is something Israelis heard about, but they didn't really experience. That's a completely different sensation. And when we talk about the wisdom, chokhmah ha-dorot, the wisdom of the generations, uh, in, in, in Israel, we don't really think about this as the diaspora experience. The diaspora experience is seen as just a gateway to everybody in this audience making aliyah tomorrow morning. And I'm all for that, by the way. I, really, I am all for that. That will make my life in Israel better.

37:07However, if we don't start thinking about these issues, we are losing something very important about Jewish survival. Um, and, and, you know, every single person that grew up as a minority group can tell me more about that than someone who grew up as a m- as, as part of a majority. It's interesting what you're saying. My- I have a brother who lives in Israel, and he's visiting right now with his six kids. They haven't been here for a few years, and we were in the grocery store with his five-year-old twins, and the twins wanted to take everything off the shelf.

37:42I live in Long Beach, California, and my sister-in-law kept saying to them, "This is, זה לא כשר. This isn't kosher. You can't eat it." My twin- the twins, who are very religious, very religious Jews in Israel, never understood the concept of kosher. They had no context for what kosher meant, and it took coming to the diaspora to learn a very important value that my brother and sister-in-law are instilling in them, and they couldn't really learn it in the sort of bubble they live in in Israel.

38:12And I just thought that was... I- as I was walking around, I'm like, "I know this is a minor thing, but there's something very deep about what Jews in Israel and Jews in the diaspora share and don't share in experience", and I, I've just been thinking a lot about that since then. Um, do we wanna stay on the American Jewish problem, or- I wanna say for your, for your, for your nieces and nephews that you, you just taught Nadav and I that now they can eat Reese's Pieces.

38:38[laughs] Because their fi- the, the Zionist lobby finally got to them, and now they're not dairy anymore. That's true. So, I mean, good, good news for everyone. Yeah. Big deal. Nadav, um- That, that- Do you- Do, do you, do you get... Is this a sponsorship thing that we- Yes, Reese's Pieces. Yes. No, just... [laughs] Hi. Say they can have some candy. Yeah. Look at us. We'd be such good models for them. [laughs] Me and ET. Um, okay. So Nadav, you are a journalist. I'm gonna ask you something totally not about Israel right now. Okay. W- if you weren't gonna be a journalist, what would you do?

39:17What do you, like, really wanna do? Oh. Um, so I tho- before being a journalist, in my high school years, I thought about being an archeologist. Really? Yeah. Wow. Period. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. I, I know that you were thinking- No, it's sexy... about, uh, like, um- Archeologists are s-... a snowboard instructor. [laughs] [laughs] No, I think of, like, archeologists- But yes... it's hot. It's hot. Yeah. I think that it's, I, I feel like it's too hot outside to be an archeologist. That's true. That is true. And I'd be sitting in the shades. Someone else would be working, you know? [laughs] So...

39:52No, so I wanna ask you, like, this is a bigger question, not about Israel, but about everything as a journalist. I mean, I just don't know what to do anymore with how to follow the news, what to read, how to consume information, and news, and media, and I, you know, I work on a college campus with college students. And I think if I really dig down into what is missing right now, I fear that this is probably the kind of root of many of our issues, whether it's Israel or whether it's other issues that our country is dealing with.

40:26What do you think, as a journalist? What can we do differently, or how can we address this for ourselves? I don't wanna say that I get it and my students don't, 'cause I feel like I'm also struggling to find the right places and the right things to consume all the time, and that you have to be an expert in every topic. Like, I can't read an article about India and understand what's going on, and so I'm skeptical from the beginning, you know? So what are your, what's your advice on this issue, about media in particular?

40:54I think you still g- uh, you are still gonna get the best kind of news from mainstream media. That, that's the truth. Yeah. Uh, in terms of if, if you care about the facts. Yes. If, if you care about those. And no, many people don't. Yes, that's true. So, uh, I, I, I wrote about this extensively i- in my book that people sort of think that people who share fake news, they don't know it's fake news. So they, uh, they just fall through the trap, and then they share that on Facebook, uh, or, I don't know, on, on Snap or on Instagram or something.

41:34No, uh, it turns out that many, many people who share fake news actually know or suspect it's fake. They don't care. And the reason they don't care is because it's good for their own tribal politics. And when I say turns out, I mean there's a, there's a rather good, uh, study about that. Uh, I think it's, it's an MIT study. Uh, so if you care about the facts, I would still consume mostly mainstream news, and I would, would... If, if, if I follow people for news, I would follow people who can actually lose their jobs if they're telling a story that is untrue.

42:15Uh, I don't think Alex Jones is gonna lose his job for telling- What about Nick Kristof? Uh, uh, well, that, that's, that's actually a good example, because there is something happening within The New York Times, you know, uh, following that story. And they, you could- Do we, do we all know what the Nick Kristof story is? Uh- [clears throat]... it was an opinion, uh- Article, so it wasn't a news story, uh, where he recounted allegations of sexual abuse against Palestinians, and one of them was that the IDF is training dogs to sexually abuse Palestinians, which most of us thought was completely laughable. Yeah. And, and you know what happened in The New York Times? First of all, the news, uh...

42:57The n- the news part of The New York Times didn't carry this, so it was published on the op- opinion pages, which, uh, and then for people who know The New York Times, they know, and I'm, I'm not gonna st- I don't work for The New York Times, and I have, you know, my own trouble, so I'm not gonna be- [laughs] sit here defending The New York Times. But they do have this idea of a separation between facts and opinions. So the very fact that it was published as an opinion piece is extremely meaningful.

43:26But then you could also see that the news section would not carry the news items from the opinion piece. They just decided not to say anything, and their, uh, them being so silent about that was actually deafening, and it said that they don't believe the story. But they didn't only do that. Uh, it opened, um, some sort of, um, a process within The New York Times as to that story, which I think is, uh, is ongoing as far as I know, but I, I'm not sure about that. I don't wanna... I, I didn't read.

44:00Maybe it's over. I, I, I'm not sure. Uh, but, but here's a good example. Let's say that we would've heard that from, uh, one of these kind of new, um, I don't wanna even say underground- Levicular Yeah. [laughs] Well, [laughs] uh, who would've c- cared about the fact there? Uh, the reason that people have issues with that is because even though many of them are so disappointed by The New York Times, they still know that The New York T- Times is built on some sort of pr- prestige and a reputation that is with facts.

44:40And, and now I know that it's very far off of perfect, and I know that a lot of it is biased, and I know the problems that are out there. And one of the key issues is that unlike the past, like 40 years ago, 50 years ago, someone would read a completely untrue story about Jackson Hole, Wyoming in The New York Times, something that was so untrue, like, uh, someone placed a river in the wrong place- [laughs]... something that is obviously untrue, and you would sit here in Jackson Hole. What would you have done? Pro- probably, you know, you could have called The New York Times. Uh, great. What would have happened then?

45:21You would write a letter. Nobody cared. You, you were voiceless. And today someone sees that, and he, uh, I don't know, like Louis C.K. once said, he sits in his, uh, toilets, you know, in the restroom, and he tweets that, you know, "This guy from The New York Times is such an idiot. I'm here in Jackson Hole. Here's the river." And it becomes viral. And that's an implosion of truth. And that means that we journalists need to do a better job because we have so many people that are on us, and when we mess up, everybody knows that we, we are messing up.

45:57And that's actually a good thing, if we survive it, which I'm not sure we will. [laughs] I don't know. I might disagree. I think I l- I only read Vos Iz Neias, which is a Yiddish, uh, news channel in New York. [laughs] They're so reliable. But the funny thing is about Vos Iz Neias- Don't, don't-... which is true- Don't get me started. No, wait. Wait. 'Cause I know these channels. Okay. Vos Iz Neias- Okay... has the news way before anyone else, okay? Knew about it. Before the things happen, it's on Yiddish news. I promise you. How many times, Yael, did I post something in our chat, and I'm like, "I think this is going on"?

46:30And everyone's like, "No, it's not anywhere." I'm like, "It's on Vos Iz Neias." Three hours later, it's on Twitter. I'm just saying. Every once in a while, Chaya Leah will text our group chat, and she's like, "Is it true that, uh, BB and Sarah just got a divorce and that Iran just bombed Turkey?" Because it's all over the Haredi news channels. [laughs] I think it's- It's very reliable. Okay. So maybe they consult the- [laughs] Al Jazeera... uh, I, I, I'm not gonna say that. I'm not... Because then I'm gonna really- Al Jazeera. [laughs] No.

47:00I, I meant to say the [laughs]... Oh, okay. We're not going there. Okay. [laughs] Anyway, um, okay, what were you gonna... So we, we, uh... Let's just do... I think we're gonna have questions soon, but- Oh... just one, one, uh, one last question from us- Okay... and then we'll, we'll kick it to a Q&A. So you mentioned your students at Columbia. Um, who are they? What's that been like? What have they learned from you? What have you learned from them? And are you okay? So- [laughs] So first of all, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm very okay. I, I think. I, uh, there's a...

47:33The dean of my school in Columbia, my school is the School of International Public Affairs, and the dean is a Professor Keren Yarhi-Milo, who, uh, you can understand from her name, is an Israeli born and raised. And, and right after October 7, she called me up, and she said, "Could you come over?" And the reason she wanted me to come over is because she said, "We're looking at our course offerings, and we're not offering anything substantial about the Israeli-Palestinian or the Israeli-Arab conflict at all.

48:04So, like, no Oslo Accords or, or Camp David. Not enough, and we're trying to get more courses there." This was before, uh, everything started happening on campuses. And I said, "Absolutely not. I can't come. I'm covering this war," which I did. Uh, then everything happened, and a lot of it happened in Colombia, including the stuff you probably saw. And she called me, uh, a year later, and she said, uh, "Can you, can you come over?" And, and, and I said, "Now I'm gonna come."

48:37Uh, because it was so interesting, and I saw this, uh, as something that is really important, not because I'm a messenger of Israeli Hasbara. To those of you who don't understand, uh, m- what I'm doing here, uh, I, I, I think it's very important that people that are assigned by Israel explain what Israel does, but it's not my job. My job is to publish stories that are true and including incredibly critical stories of Israel, of what Israel does, of what the Israeli government is doing everywhere, including in the West Bank and in Gaza, including in the relations between Israeli and Palestinians, including what the IDF is doing, and this is what I'm doing.

49:24And I thought that it's very important, seeing what I saw in campuses, is that we have an academic discourse that is based on facts and on rigorous academic discussion, the sort that some of us here in the room had with our own professors, that we didn't know exactly who they're voting for, or even if we did know who they're voting for, it didn't, uh, escalate to the position that they offered us to join demonstrations- Ugh. Right... or have classes within demonstrations. And I think that was very important for me to come.

50:00And the students that I met-- First of all, I was, uh, uh, to, to a certain degree, I, I, I was, uh, disappointed as a journalist- [laughs]... because I came, and I, I was expecting something, uh... You know, I saw this kind of, uh... Never believe what you see on the media. That's-- I, I, I was seeing these videos, and I was expecting that all hell will break loose and many, many interruptions to classes. This really didn't happen. Wow, that's offensive. Yes. And, and I, I was asking what's gonna happen to my street cred in Israel- Yeah... when I get back home. Uh, but what really happened is that I met a lot of students.

50:39I, I, I never, uh, inspect. I don't think it's legal for me to ask students for their religion. I'm quite sure it isn't, so I never do that. But I met many students that came from all over the world, including from countries that don't have relations with Israel, including students that explained in the classroom, uh, that Israel is having a genocide in Gaza. I, I met all kinds of students in my class, and what I saw were mainly students that are eager to know more and to develop their careers and to have careers.

51:15Most of them were master's students, so they were graduate students, and it was a very interesting experience. I'll just give you one example. So I had a student that came from a country that has no relations with Israel, and, uh, she went back to her home country after taking my course about strategic surprises, and the next email I got from her was after Iran attacked Israel, and the email was to ask me if I'm fine and if my family is well. And she, she comes from a country that I'm-- I, I, I simply I'm not gonna identify the country, but a country that very much dislikes, uh, Israel, to say the least. And she sent that email- Isn't she from Ireland?

52:04[laughs] A country with no, no official relations at all with Israel. Uh- Spain. [laughs] So, so another student, another student, uh... I'll just... Uh, that's another example. So we have a class about Oslo, and she came to me afterwards. She again comes from a country that is, uh, has no relations with Israel. And she said, uh, "I, I, I never knew that Yasser Arafat ever had anything to do with violence. I, I thought that Yasser Arafat was just the leader of the Palestinian people."

52:39Now, she didn't say that because she sort of opened her eyes and she dislikes Arafat or dislikes the Palestinian national movement. And by the way, I don't intend my students to think this way or the other. She just didn't know his history. And she said, "In my home country, I, I can't even read about that. And my husband is here with me, and I'm giving him the reading list," which by the way, contains Palestinian writers and, uh, Israeli writers and many others, "because h- he won't be able to access this in our country."

53:15So these are the kind of things that for me make a change, not because they're changing opinions. I am really not here to change opinions, but to create an academic at- atmosphere that looks at the Middle East in, in a factual way and then allows them to make their own decisions. So I think it's banal to say, it's a cliché to say th- you know, teach them how to think. But the fact that it's a cliché doesn't mean that universities shouldn't try doing that.

53:43And, and by the way, my experience, at least in my school, in my school in Colombia, in SIPA, is that it, it's, it's very much, it's, it's very much the case. Uh, Hillary Clinton is teaching a class there. Uh, she, she, she suffered, uh, heckling throughout the- She gets protested. No, she, she got a lot of that. Uh, and, and I don't know if you're following, she very much stood her ground- She did... in the last three years about these issues, as did President Clinton. Uh, we, we-- By the way, we had an event, an, a memorial event for Robin, and, uh, um, my-- to my great, uh, really great joy, I am sharing a poster Uh, [laughs] of- Whoa...

54:30so, [laughs] of one of those radical groups against the Rabin memorial, and I'm sharing the poster with President Clinton and Secretary Clinton- Oh my God. Why not?... with blood spattered on our faces. Which is- Such an honor. Such an honor. Yeah. It's a- Did they pick a good photo of you? Yeah, sorry? Did they pick a good photo of you? 'Cause that's important. It's, it's, it's a pretty good photo, right? It's good. It makes a difference. And, and, and I'm like everywhere that I can be in the same poster with these guys, I'm fine, you know? [laughs] Totally. Yeah. Okay. Last question. It's a short one.

55:01You are on the Call Me Back podcast very often with Amit, your co-jou- Israeli journalist. Do you ever wanna punch him? No. No. Really? No, because there's no- It's off the record. [laughs] No, I enjoy, I, I enjoy... If I would be punchy now I would say, "Why punch him? There's no case to answer." [laughs] Oh. Yeah. But, but, no, that's not the... I, uh, Amit and myself, I think, made a decision a long time ago, uh, never to fight on air. A- and I think it's a good decision. Do you and Amit ever go to sleep angry?

55:39[laughs] [laughs] Ah, we love you guys. No, it's great. Thank you. You've done a great job helping all of like English-speaking Jewish world, and non-Jewish world, and the Hebrew, but I'm saying specifically for our crowd really be able to understand what's going on. I don't know if you realize the sort of gift that you have given us, um, because then I'm able to go on my own podcast and pretend that I know what I'm talking about- [laughs]... 'cause I just listened to Dan interview you, and it's very helpful, so I appreciate it. 'Cause who read book... Who read...

56:11Let's be honest, no one's reading books right now, so I just paraphrase you all day and sound smart. So thank you for your service. Oh, thanks very much. Yeah. That's what, yeah. That's your goal, right? [laughs] That's... Yeah, exactly. Paraphrasing me. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so we're gonna do questions now, Mary, right? Yeah. I just wanna say one thing, and I mean this with all the deep love in my heart, really. This is not your opportunity to have your own podcast. Just ask a question. We'll invite you next time if you have a speech to give. We'll invite you next time to give, uh, your own speech.

56:43But I've been to enough Jewish, uh, organization events where people think it's their opportunity to, like, share their entire history and give their whole opinion. Just ask a nice, simple, short question that has a question mark at the end. I mean that with all the love, so thank you very much. [laughs] You guys can handle it. Do you wanna do it? Yeah, yeah. We'll handle it. No, go ahead. And you can ask, ask questions too. Okay. Uh, we'll take that gentleman right there. Okay. Take the microphone to him. Oh. Yeah, go to him. You mean I gotta work? [laughs] All right.

57:20Thank you for the preamble. I was prepared to make a long, eloquent discourse. [laughs] Real simple. Let's go back to the elections. Yeah. What are the odds that we'll have a national unity government, and have no Arab party, and no Haredis? What, what's the likelihood of that being an outcome of this election? Uh, I think the likelihood is, is quite high. Um, but this kind of a national unity I don't think really can survive unless Netanyahu is gonna leave the stage, and I can explain why.

57:52But the bottom line is as such, there is not gonna be a national unity if Netanyahu is leading it. Uh, and if Netanyahu is leading it, he doesn't, he's not gonna have a national unity with centrist parties because he needs to have both the Haredim and the far right with him, and here's why, and this is something that people don't understand. It's a sort of a deep dive, but it's really simple. If he will go with Gadi Eisenkot and with Yair Lapid and Bennett, and he will leave out the Haredim and the far right, Gadi Eisenkot, Bennett, and Lapid can basically end his political career by just disintegrating the coalition any day.

58:42And he... I already wrote that. It's an op-ed, what I'm gonna say now. He will never, he will never bank his political career on o- an honest person. He will need to have the far right with him because without them he will need to actually compromise with people like Eisenkot, and Bennett, and Lapid. Okay? And because of that, the Likud will absolutely join a national unity government, but only if Netanyahu decides to, I think, retire. And there is another problem, of course.

59:20Uh, according to, uh, an Israeli Supreme Court decision that was made during the Rabin government, so it's not against the f- the right-wing government, a minister in Israel that is, uh, indicted for, uh, corruption charges, uh, needs to resign, and you cannot nominate a person to that position. So Netanyahu can only be a prime minister. He can't be a defense minister, right? Or he can be what we call an alternate prime minister, which is very difficult for him to accept. Okay. I'll take- My question is simple. I think it's a follow-on to the last one in a way.

1:00:00That, um, do you see a path that the, uh, treatment of settlers in the West Bank will be different after the election? If by the treatment of settlers in the West Bank you mean the violence in the West Bank, you mean... Okay. So what you mean is, uh, let's not mince words here, you mean Jewish terrorism. Yeah. I think it's gonna be the mission of any government, uh, by the way, even a Netanyahu government, a Likud government, to deal with terrorism in the West Bank that isn't only Palestinian te- terrorism It's, it's such a consensus in Israel today that this is terrorism, that, that there is no difference of opinion between Amit and myself as to that.

1:00:45Uh, Amit said this on, you know, on TV. Uh, he described this as Jewish terrorism. And I, and I don't think we need to use any other words, uh, there. And of course, the problem is that, uh, many bodies within the Israeli apparatus are, if not backing, are being extremely lenient towards, uh, uh, these activities. Uh, and it's gonna be the job of the new government to tackle this, and they will need to tackle this because, uh, uh, it's morally wrong, it's not Jewish, uh, it sacrifices Israel's security, and it's extremely damaging to Israel's position in the world. But I would take the first two, morally wrong, universally wrong, in Jewish ways wrong. I think there is a wide understanding within the political spectrum that this is the case. Uh, and they, they will...

1:01:44I, I suspect they will do that because they have no other choice. Uh, but I think that Eisenkot absolutely wants to do that too. Uh, and I think even if Netanyahu gets reelected, he will need to deal with it, or at least I wanna hope he will need to deal with it. Majority of Jews in the, in Misham won't agree with that. It's not- Yeah. I, I- It's not as- It's, it's, it's, uh... So this is a point, uh, uh, uh, usually made again by, by Amit and, and sometimes by Dan that, uh, it's not, it's not the settlers, the settlers, right? Uh, and I, I...

1:02:21You, you know, the settlers are 100,000, hundreds of thousands of people, and I think the distinction need to, needs to be made. However, unfortunately, and again, people don't bring me over to sugarcoat, and I'm not gonna sugarcoat. I think there's a large ambience, there are a lot of support to these kind of activities within wider communities, and I think it's extremely unfortunate. I think it's part of the trauma that the Israeli society experienced after the war. It's a part of the far ri- rising after the war.

1:02:54I'm not explaining, I'm just, uh, trying to, to, to sense what's happening in the Israeli society. But it doesn't matter. It needs to be tackled. If it's not gonna be tackled, it's gonna be even more dangerous to, not only to Israeli society or Israeli, uh, security, it's absolutely dangerous, mortally dangerous to Israeli soul, to the principle of its existence, to the justification of the entire thing. Uh, this is not why we, we have this country to, to sort of defend these kind of activities. It, it feels...

1:03:29And, and the word Zionism carries different weight in Israel and here, but I think for a lot of Israelis, it feels very anti-Zionist. Oh, yeah. It's, it's, it's sort of a, a radical post Zionism of sorts that doesn't really believe in the message that is Israel. You, and then you'll be next. Thank you. I'm gonna make this, like, teeny personal and [laughs] Not go down the podcast route. Yes. That's, that's great. Yeah, right. Exactly. I'm gonna make this quick.

1:03:57But, um, so you know, I'm a Russian immigrant, consciously raised my daughter in a Jewish community outside of Chicago. Fast-forward to, this goes to campuses, she went to University of Michigan, 15% Jewish community. She's never felt like a bigger minority. She was a poli sci international studies double major, Judaica studies minor. And what I sat through in that graduation was scary, and what's happening at university s- across the country is really scary.

1:04:32I have so much love for that university, but what's being taught on college campuses right now... So back to the conversation of campuses, she's scared to put Judaic studies, you know, Hebrew proficient on her resumes, looking for jobs, applying to law school. Like, what do we tell our children about being proud? And, and she is, and she continues to be, but being a proud Jew in the current environment that we're in. First of all, thank you for sharing that. Um, I think it's a very difficult question.

1:05:05And when you ask the question, this is where I need to sort of put my money where my mouth is and say, "I don't... I never experienced what you experienced." And my ability to advise you fr- standing high as an Israeli that grew up where I grew up, uh, and this is why many people when they go to Israel, who speak with the Israelis, they sense something different. What they sense is that, that, that sense of security, although they grew up in a place that is not really secure [laughs] but it's a sense of security of growing up in a place that is your own.

1:05:43So I, I, I'm not arrogant enough to, to tell you what to do. I can just be a student of Jewish history. These are the choices the Jews had to make since emancipation, since leaving the ghettos. This is the choice, and it's a very difficult choice to make. But the truth is that we all lived through a pause, and that pause was probably had a lot to do with the memories of World War II and the Holocaust. The people who carried that memory have died, and that memory has slowly and now quickly evaporated from public discourse.

1:06:34History has returned to a condition in which the Jews are seen as the minority that they are Many people will not accept bigotry against Jews. Many people will fight bigotry against Jews. It's not anti-Semitism the law of the land. It will not necessarily escalate to another Holocaust or anything like that. But the choice that we need to make as Jews is the choice of identifying ourselves or not identifying ourselves. By the way, there are many minorities that can't even make that choice, and we need to sort of acknowledge that, and they, they carry their identity in a way that can never be- There are Jews that do that too... denied.

1:07:19And of course, there are J- yeah, and, and Jews that are observant. And because of that, by the way, many of my friends who are observant Jews make their choices to head to Israel where life is both easier and more secure because they won't be like that person I saw with his little kid on, uh, the tube in London, the, the underground in London, when a person standing just, just above this person with a yarmulke and his kid with a yarmulke shouting at them, verbally abusing them.

1:07:53And I see that Jewish father, and he's whispering something to his, to his kid because he's trying to draw his attention away from that person who is shouting at these people only because they, they are seen as Jews, because they are observant Jews. And he's saying something to the kid, and he looks so relaxed, the father, but I know because I'm a dad, I, I know what he's doing. He's, he's trying to prevent this trauma of installing itself into, into his, his child's soul.

1:08:26These are the choices we make as Jews, and I am not going to tell her what to do or tell you what she needs to do, but these choices are historically the choices the Jews made, and I hear these stories from college students all over the country. Uh, and we, people who are part of faculty need to fight this. We need to make sure that curriculums and reading lists and school and classes are, are, uh, academically rigorous and fact-based, but that's not gonna change the choice that she's gonna make, and she's gonna make choices her entire life, and it's part of growing up and choosing your identity.

1:09:07And, uh, as, as a Jew, as an Israeli, I, I hope she, she stays close. I'm not so nice. I'll tell her what to do. [laughs] You're very diplomatic. I'm not gonna tell her what to do. I'll tell you. I work on a college campus in California, very state school, so you can imagine how much love there is for Israel and Zionism, and this is what I tell my students all the time. Anti-Semitism is not our problem. It's just not our problem. It's their problem. They have a cancer. Those schools have a cancer, right? Those professors, those faculty, the administration, they are sick, and I, I mean it.

1:09:48They have a sickness, an illness. I tell my Jewish students, "You are not sick. You do not have an illness. You are perfect the way you are." I mean, I'm sure there's things they're not great at, but you know what I mean. In this sense, we have to give our kids a confidence. That is all they need. I watch my students. I've been there for 12 years on this campus. I watch my students who have a confidence about their Jewish identity, whether they know how to read Hebrew and to pray or even if they know the holidays or the mitzvot, to students who know nothing except that they're a Jew.

1:10:22The ones that have a confidence in themselves, that know that it's not about them, this is not our problem, this is their problem that they need to solve. This is not our job to solve anti-Semitism for this country. They have to solve it. Those students that have that confidence walk through the world with their heads held high. They can write it on their applications. They can say who they are because they know at the end of the day that there's nothing to be ashamed of. They have nothing to hide, and it doesn't matter.

1:10:51And that's what I wish every single parent and teacher and rabbi and Jewish community leader would just tell our communities and our kids. We are not the problem. We have nothing to be ashamed of, and we have nothing to hide, and that's what our kids need. And I do have four sons. If you listen to my podcast, I talk about it all the time. I have four sons who walk in the world as with yarmulkes and tzitzits. Every other day something happens. Two weeks ago, I'm walking home. I hardly go to Shul.

1:11:18I'm not a big Shul goer, but I went, and walking home from Shul, a car drives by screaming, "Dirty Jews" right out the window. You know what we did? We laughed. We said, "Nabakh." So sad on these people. So sad that they're so stupid and idiotic. That's how we deal with it. My-- everywhere my kids-- my son calls an Uber a few weeks ago. I'm not gonna say what the name of the Uber driver was. I'll let you decide. [laughs] It was not-- He pulled up. When he saw my son standing with a yarmulke, he flew away, and he would not pick up my son. Who cares? He's a loser, that guy. He's stupid.

1:11:52He lost money, and we gave him a negative review, and he's gonna suffer at the end of the day. What did my son suffer? My son got the next ride. We're not victims, and we need to stop acting like victims, and we need to stop telling our kids that we have something to be ashamed of, 'cause we don't. [applauding] I, I'm, I'm all for this, and, uh, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna push back on this. I, I just wanna say something that is important. Um, unfortunately, uh, they are stupid and everything that Chaya Lehrer said here is true, but the tragedy of human ex- uh, of Jewish existence is that it is not only their problem. It's becoming our problem.

1:12:32Uh, and when it's, um, you know, someone shouting at you at the street or an Uber driver, that's one thing. But, but things happen and things might happen politically that have real implications on people lives And that's the reason why-- And that's very interesting about, um, Jewish activists in this country and other countries. The people who marched in Selmy and in other places, they understood how bigotry is something that is cancerous to the society.

1:13:05And if you don't fight it, it will reach everyone, and it will jeopardize the society, but it will first hurt the minorities that are attacked, and they will be hurt. And that's the reason why I think it's admirable that the community in this country is so organized. By the way, this is what I'm hearing from every other minority in this country. They always say that, including if you want the anecdotes, the sort of the, the, the anecdotes that Yael was talking about, a taxi driver tells me, uh, uh, I, I admire your community because you have schools, and you have institutions, and you build these things.

1:13:42Why? So you stay strong and that your kids will grow up, and they'll have the opportunity of your tradition. All of these things gr-grew up of-- at the end of the day, of the way that people reacted to Jews. These JCCs because of the country clubs in this country that didn't accept Jews, right? So this is so important. Uh, and I'm, I'm, I'm just adding another nuance. I'm sorry, Chaya, because- [laughs] Because this is like the- You're wrong. No. Okay. [laughs] No, just to push back on that-- Not push back- Okay... just to add a layer.

1:14:16Part of what I've seen as an American Jew is that a lot of the institutions, and I admire all of them, and I worked for them, and I, you know, I, I, I-- Many of them failed the young Jews in this country. And part of what I think happened, and I'm not a scholar, and I didn't write a thesis on this, but what I think happened is we stopped telling the individual Jew what it means to be a proud Jew, and we sort of outsourced it to institutions. And when families stopped becoming one with the institutions, and their kids didn't grow up in JCCs, and their kids didn't grow up in synagogues, what did we give them? What do we have? So I, I agree.

1:14:57We need to fight antisemitism. It's not that I don't believe we should, but I don't think it's the job of college students to do it, and I don't think it's even, uh, the job-- We have to protect ourselves, first and foremost, but I think it's-- The institution should do it, but I think our kids need a real boost of confidence, and many of their parents do, too. Not to, not to push back. [laughs] Um, maybe we have time for one, one more question. If somebody has something optimistic- [laughs]... or kind of on a nice n- Maybe not the time to ask about Iran.

1:15:27Um, but- The Holocaust? Anybody wants to know about the Holocaust? Yeah. We haven't talked about the Holocaust the entire, the entire time. The gentleman over there. All right, Cliff. It's, it's all, it's your responsibility now. It is mine. We have four questions now. [laughs] Um, I'll be quick as best as I can. I'm gonna set the table a little bit, the fact that, uh, in both parties currently in the US, um, there are potential leaders that are going to be unfriendly to Israel and the Jews. Uh, that's a concern from both sides.

1:15:59Um, you also have, as you mentioned, you know, the, the TikTokers, the influencers, even, you know, uh, even though the Jews are, are a very small minority, there's really not any state in the US that they can swing voting-wise. And right now, it seems politicians are less about their, uh, morality and what they stand on, is more so, uh, either getting in office and staying in office, right? And that comes with the majority of the vote. Uh, and I'll also flip over and say, from a concerning point of view, like Israel, which is a fantastic country, innovative, highly technological, smart militarily, you know, you want Israel to be your friend.

1:16:36God forbid that somebody gets in power from the US that pivots against Israel in terms of support. Where does Israel pivot, do you see, uh, to any either superpower or semi-superpower in the world that would accept their friendship and alliance? Um... I sometimes be-- I, I, I'm being asked by, by Israelis, um, about Israel needing to pivot or dilute its dependence on the US and, uh, unfortunately, Israel doesn't have an alternative like that. I, I want to be absolutely clear about that, and I, I'm saying unfortunately, not because I do not like the alliance with the US. I am a pro-American, uh, you know, through and through.

1:17:32I've, um, uh, admired this country, um, since a very young age. Uh, this is something that I grew up with. My, my grandfather as a young officer in the IDF was sent to this country to, um, a military, uh, engineering school, uh, came back with the impression of America in the 1950s and how things were done, and the clarity and the credibility of the American experience. And of course, for him as an engineer, that carried a lot of weight, and he was fortunate enough to return to this country and, and work on some big projects in California.

1:18:13And, uh, so I, I grew up in a family that really valued America, and I still think that America is humanity's best hope. Uh, I'm not saying it's, it's h- only hope, and I'm not saying that everything is, is great in this country. And I know that people-- Usually, when you speak with people who read the news anywhere in the world, by the way, if you speak with people who read the news in Holland, uh, in the Netherlands, uh, in, in the UK, in France, in Israel, the place is gone.

1:18:46The place is, you know, it's just, [laughs] the country's destroyed. And, and that happens a lot in Israel too, and sometimes happens even in this country because of different reasons. You know, one part would say because of the, you know, the progressives, and the other part would say because of Trump. For me, as a person living in the world, I need America there, and as an Israeli, I need America. But I understand what you're saying about what's happening in the American political field. And the truth is that unlike what the anti-Semites argue about Israel, the reason that America supported Israel is twofold.

1:19:23First and foremost, because the public in this country supported Israel. That's the reason that the US supported Israel, because Americans loved Israel and always supported it since its inception. They saw the Israeli ideal as something that they can identify with. It was grassroot popular in this country. And because of that, they wanted their ele-elected officials to support Israel. There wasn't a Jewish conspiracy there. It's not about Jewish money.

1:19:58It's about voters wanting the people they choose to office, elect to office, just to have a policy that is somewhat, uh, reasonably, uh, identifiable with what they are-- with what they think. And the second reason is because Israel was very important during the Cold War, which of course nobody talks about because nobody knows anything about history anymore. Nobody talks about the past, but everybody makes big arguments. Uh, the truth is that Israel was, uh, one of the most singular places in the world in which a Western ally won against the Soviets, not once, not twice, but in every single confrontation with Soviet ammunition, Soviet advisors, Soviet-trained armies everywhere.

1:20:49Israelis won and supplied America with a lot of both intelligence and including, you know, Khrushchev, the leader of the USSR, announcing that he is denouncing Stalin. That came from the Israeli intelligence. Or the MiG-21 that was stolen in a Mossad operation, the first to be introduced to the West, or things that nobody talks about and nobody remembers and are crucial. That-- These are the two reasons Israel was winning and Israel was popular. Israel is still winning to some degree, although it's not the same. It's not fighting armies. It's highly problematic.

1:21:27And so many people have died in Gaza, so many civilians have died in Gaza. It's a very difficult pitch to make, and I recognize that. And Israel is not as popular as it was because it's been in the news for three years. And you know what? If you would have a country in the news for three years fighting against an enemy that is very much entrenched within a population, uh, that is mostly civilian, it wouldn't have been popular anyway. By the way, this isn't only about antisemitism. It's not only about bigotry. It's about the images, the stories, and what's coming from the Middle East. So Israel has become more of a, a story that is, uh, dividing.

1:22:17And if it basically just moves out of the news for two or three years, my guess it will be slightly improved, at least slightly improved. But it w-- the bleeding will definitely stop. Israel can't turn to China, to your question. It will not turn to China, and the Chinese are not interested because they have five hundred million people, uh, living, uh, or a few hundred million people living in the Arab world, and Israel is only ten million people.

1:22:45And the Arab world controls oil reserves, and Israel does not. And as to Israeli technology, that's not good enough, enough of a reason. And Israel is an American ally. And by the way, it's the only American ally that you can call today and say, "I need you to fight with America." And that ally would say, "I will have two hundred fighter jets armed and fueled and ready to fight with America today." Not in a month's time, not in a year's time, not in six months.

1:23:21There is no other ally that can do that, not the UK, and not France, and definitely not Germany, no other ally of the United States. Uh, I don't think Canada can do that. And, and because of that, and because of that, we, we, we have no alternative but the United States. And this means that we need to find our way back to people who disagree, to people who used to support Israel, but feel now that they've been offended, and not those people who really hate and despise Israel because of their bigotry.

1:24:01I think these are the-- in this country, it's such a small minority. But we, we need to do that. It's on us. It's not on the Jewish community in this country. It's on us as Israelis to do our best in that regard. But I'm telling you, as some of you care about Israel, have no doubt, and I know it places a lot of responsibility, Israel cannot sustain itself without the alliance with the United States. This is not how it was built for many, many years through the Cold War. It's not the, the way that the, the, the world works today. Turkey is flying American jets, okay? Uh, India is still using Soviet ammunitions.

1:24:48You don't pivot that quickly. Israel really needs the United States. And I think, you know, from a very, very modest point of view, that Israel has a lot to offer the US, uh, both in terms of its reliability, the fact that it is a democracy, and the fact that it can supply the United States and the West with a better understanding of a very complicated region and a very challenging region for global power. And the alternatives are much, much worse. So from a coldly realistic point of view, uh, I think that ditching this, uh, US-Israeli alliance would be a terrible mistake. And you know what?

1:25:35I think most generals that have fought through this war with Israelis would probably-- most American generals would probably agree. Mm-hmm. Canada can send a, a strongly worded letter if they were asked to help. [laughs] Israel only needs Hashem. If I don't say that, I lose my Chabad card. Okay? Israel needs Hashem and America. [laughs] Enforcing that- All right. Beginning with America. On that note, may, may Hashem bless America and Israel and the Jewish people- And Nadav... and Nadav and all this great nation. I'm gonna-- One thing to say before you sign off. Sure. O-okay. I was gonna sign off then.

1:26:13Would you like to say it now? Uh, well, I wanna thank, uh, thank you three [applause] for coming and sharing your wisdom. Thank you, Mary, and Cliff, and, and Brad, and Josh, and the amazing community here. [outro jingle]