Jen Palmieri

0:00Speaker 1:Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to this week's Work in Progress, friends. Before we get started, I have something important I want to share with you. September is Hunger Action Month, which means it's just wrapped up, but the need certainly hasn't. And that's why our friends at Feeding America are encouraging everyone to play their part in helping people facing hunger. Addressing hunger is one of the most important things that we can do in society, friends, because hunger has such implications beyond simply an empty dinner table. Hunger affects people's ability to pursue their education. It affects whether or not children are learning well in school. It affects people's opportunities to succeed in their careers, at their sports, and in their lives in general. Everyone needs and deserves to have access to food, but currently rising costs are leading to far too many people having to make tough decisions, like choosing between paying for utilities or putting food.

1:09Speaker 2:On the table.

1:10Speaker 1:And this simply cannot stand. In 2024, nearly 48 million people in the United States, including more than 14 million children, experienced food insecurity. And today we know that's gotten far worse But with the cancellation of so many SNAP benefits and with rising food costs and incredible pressure on households, it's costing more to be able to provide less. And budgets in crisis are making it harder for families to afford their food while covering other essentials. Hunger affects communities across the country, and it can feel overwhelming. But here's the thing. Together, we can make a difference. Every single contribution can help provide greater access to the food people need.

1:54Speaker 1:So whether it's for Hunger Action Month, or as you know that winter is approaching, I'm going to ask each of us to play our parts by donating at feedingamerica.org slash workinprogress. I really believe that together we can make a difference and make sure families have a little bit of an easier time tomorrow than they might have had yesterday. Again, that's feedingamerica.org slash workinprogress. Now do we have a smarty for you, one of the most brilliant political minds I know, who happens to be really fun to have a cocktail with.

2:29Speaker 1:A brilliant storyteller, a director, a producer, a mind that I just want to pick all the time. Today we're joined by Jen Palmieri. Jen has spent more than two decades inside some of the biggest moments in our political world, working in both the Clinton and Obama White Houses. She was at the Center for American Progress. She worked on presidential campaigns. She was Secretary Clinton's communications director during 2016.

2:51Speaker 2:I mean....

2:54Speaker 1:I'd be here all day reading her resume if I didn't decide to paraphrase it. Jen has a collective experience that has given her a uniquely close view of American politics and, frankly, a vantage point to understand what it's going to take for us to throw all this identity stuff in the garbage and unite the country and what it will take for the Dems to reclaim power and hopefully rescue the soul of America. Jen decided to look beyond Washington and dip back into her Southern roots. She grew up in Mississippi and South Carolina, and she decided to go back to the South and has made a six-part documentary series called Long Play, Winning the South. And it is so good, you guys. It asks questions about how progressives can rebuild political power in a region that they largely stopped competing in and asks why they did that in the first place. She traveled all over the South, meeting with voters and communities, engaging in history, and really examining the changing demographics that are reshaping our national map.

4:04Speaker 1:I can't think of anybody better to talk to as the 2026 midterms are approaching and figure out how we answer some of our big questions about where we go from here and how are we feeling about the next election and what the hell should we be doing to get prepared. So let's go dive in with the brilliant Jen Palmieri. Jen, I'm so happy you're here today. I'm so thrilled to have you on the show. You are one of the most dynamic, intelligent women I've ever shared space with. I'm so lucky that from time to time I get to be your dinner date. And you manage to be such a brilliant political brain, but you're also really fun. And you remind me that working to build a better world is actually really enjoyable. And the stories that you tell and the way you bring people in, it's all so amazing. But I don't want to start now.

5:09Speaker 1:I actually want to go back. Because when you become somebody that people know... They know your work. They know the woman you became in the world who holds these positions. But I want to know where little Navy brat Jen might have been at 10. You know, I know your dad was in the Navy. My granddad was in the Navy. I'm like, I have a real soft spot for it. And I know you moved around a lot. So what was your life like when you were approaching double digits as a child?

5:38Speaker 3:Yeah. I was, I'm the youngest of four girls.

5:42Speaker 2:So I had a lot of role models, you know, I watched, I think I grew up really observant because we moved around so much. So, you know, if you are constantly, you know, I went to like nine different schools. So if you're, if you, if every 18 months or so you're picking up and moving, you become very, I think, astute at reading a room, understanding what the incentive structures are in your grade school or, you know, And kind of where people are coming from, which I think helped me a lot in politics.

6:14Speaker 3:So I was always a big reader. I had three elders.

6:19Speaker 2:I mean, my family was busy. And so I felt like I was a little... I had probably more independence than my sisters did. But I watched a lot of what they did.

6:31Speaker 3:And I felt.

6:32Speaker 2:I think I felt... I learned a lot by watching.

6:35Speaker 3:Them and thinking... they're probably worrying too much than they should. They're awesome. They're beautiful. They're smart there.

6:43Speaker 2:And so I think I got a sense at a young age of, you know, so I think maybe things I was willing to challenge to do more daring things or think more things are possible than my sisters might have, because I saw how they operate in the world. And I saw, I knew they were like endlessly capable of, Yeah. And that just made me feel like there was a lot that was on the table that you could do.

7:12Speaker 1:I have never heard someone answer a question like that, that as a young woman, you had already keyed into the amount of worry, the amount of of weight that comes with all that invisible labor that women do. And you identified that you, your sisters didn't need to do it because they were brilliant and capable and you sure as hell weren't.

7:33Speaker 3:Going to do it.

7:34Speaker 1:Like that is so wise for a child.

7:36Speaker 2:Well, I don't think, I think I just intuited that, right. I don't think that I, I don't think I didn't consciously have that awareness, but I, I definitely felt like.

7:46Speaker 3:I just moved.

7:47Speaker 2:I think I moved a little easier in the world than they did, but I think it is because I saw that, uh, that they were, how great they were. Um, and what they achieved, you know, my one sister who like blew through high school in three years and then blew through college in three years, you know, another high school, another sister that was very athletic and a cheerleader. And then another sister that was a mix of all of those things.

8:09Speaker 1:You were steeped in possibility probably before you even had the terminology for it. Yeah.

8:13Speaker 2:And they were, and the other thing I think is different for my experience is there were no boys in our family.

8:18Speaker 3:So, um, There was.

8:19Speaker 2:No, you know, my husband is still like, let me help you with that.

8:22Speaker 3:And I'm like, there were no boys in my family. We just, we picked every, you know, the couch needed moving. My sister and I did it. The trash was emptying. We did that, you know.

8:30Speaker 2:Totally. So there was no sense of anyone being treated differently than the other. So I think that that probably also put me on a certain path in terms of thinking what women were.

8:41Speaker 3:Capable of.

8:42Speaker 2:And my father was just, my father.

8:44Speaker 3:Very busy career in the Navy. And he was just kind of like, I got to, just got to, got to get out of the Palmary girls way.

8:48Speaker 2:Cause like the Palmary girls will descend on a situation even today, no matter what it is, if it's a party or a wedding or a funeral or like whatever it is needs gets done.

8:57Speaker 3:And we are going to take care of it. Let's just like, yeah. Yeah.

9:02Speaker 1:There is really that beehive energy. Like, let's do it. Let's divide. Let's conquer. Let's fix. What do you need? Is it a snack? Is it a lawyer? Like, we got you. I feel that too. And I think it's because I went to an all-girls school. And so when you talk about the dynamic in your house with all girls, I'm like, sister, I know it. And it really does. It hands you a permission slip that you don't even realize some other women haven't been handed. until they're shocked at how comfortably you give yourself permission.

9:39Speaker 3:Yeah. Yes.

9:40Speaker 2:I think I just didn't know. I just didn't know anything else. And it wasn't until like much later as an adult that I considered there were no boys in our family. You know, there was no. So it just I think it.

9:53Speaker 3:Yeah, I think.

9:53Speaker 2:And the other thing that I saw as I was approaching my double digits is my mother got involved in politics.

9:59Speaker 3:That was great.

10:00Speaker 1:To be my question. When did your political awakening happen?

10:04Speaker 2:When did?

10:07Speaker 1:That sort of service and line of work go from being interesting to a career you knew you wanted?

10:14Speaker 3:Very young. My mother, we lived in Pascagoula, Mississippi a couple of times. I was born there. We lived there another time.

10:21Speaker 2:And my mother, it was Trent Lott, who ended up being a Republican senator. He ended up being the Senate Majority Leader. Had a very successful career in politics. And one of my mother's close friends' husband was the campaign manager for his first congressional race. And my mother was the volunteer coordinator. And so she got involved and she would put me in a built like a sandwich board, like a Trent Lott sandwich board and stick me in front of the supermarket or door knock me. And I was dressed up as a Trent Lott sandwich board for Halloween.

10:54Speaker 2:There's a picture of me with Trent Lott. I think I'm seven. And I just got the bug of, people getting together to try and, you know, work as a team to have some kind of outcome and you could just do it.

11:09Speaker 3:And I think, and that, and it was at that moment that, and my.

11:12Speaker 2:Parents were probably mostly voted for Republicans, although my mother was very proud that she voted.

11:17Speaker 3:She did not vote for Nixon. She wants everybody to know.

11:22Speaker 1:Okay, Mrs. P.

11:24Speaker 3:Later they, Clinton, they.

11:28Speaker 2:Like, with Bill Clinton, they kind of became Democrats. But so it wasn't even it wasn't a partisan thing. It was just I knew I knew I wanted to work in politics from age seven, probably. And then I just always had that, you know, and I continued to follow it, you know, through my high school years and involved in stuff there, too. Yeah, I didn't know what it would be, what I would do. Yeah, I knew that that's what I wanted to.

11:54Speaker 1:Yeah, the world you wanted to. live inside of. I'm really curious, you know, because you talk about growing up in Mississippi and you lived so much in the South. I know you lived in South Carolina and, you know, I did 10 years in North Carolina. I find that moment, that sort of inflection point, I think Bill Clinton was such a fantastic candidate and communicator because in a way he made everybody feel seen, traditional Democrats. And also Southern folks who have kind of been told they're Republicans, but who saw his policies and who realized like, wait, I agree with that guy. And he talks like me and he's from around here. And I think, you know, we're in this crazy moment where identity politics have almost become religious and they've lost... I mean, they've lost the plot on facts and, you know, what's good for people and what government is supposed to do. And, you know, it just feels so crazy. I'm curious because I know you landed in the Clinton White House eventually.

13:02Speaker 2:Yeah.

13:03Speaker 1:Did you... Do you think, you know, my assessment of looking at him as a little kid in the 90s and being like, I think... I think everybody likes him.

13:12Speaker 2:Was it that?

13:13Speaker 1:Why do you think he was such a good candidate? And why do you think he was able to communicate to people that in fact, democratic, I'm air quoting for the friends at home, like democratic economic policies made sense? Because we all know that in the last 45 years, every single recession has been caused by a Republican president and the Democrats come and clean it up. Like we're the better fiscal party and yet people don't believe it, even though the facts are non-emotional. The emotions make us sort of upside down. Like, so you got to see inside of it. I've studied it. Like, give me the inside scoop.

13:53Speaker 2:So I think that Southern candidates make the best, I think Southern Democrats make the best presidential candidates. So, or just, or red state, a red state candidate, you know, Barack Obama is an exception, is a very notable exception to that.

14:09Speaker 1:But the Midwest is sort of... It's not that it's Southern, but it has, I would say, like a similar.

14:19Speaker 2:Thing.

14:19Speaker 1:There's like a cousin energy.

14:20Speaker 2:And, you know, interestingly, Bill Clinton is from Arkansas, which is, you know, maybe a third Midwest and two-thirds Southern. Like, it is a different place than other Southern states. It definitely has a Midwest sensibility.

14:37Speaker 3:It's a little... it's a little less, it's a little.

14:40Speaker 2:More, it's a little more buttoned up than, you know, Mississippi maybe, for example. So it's slightly different. And he was, and he was both. But I think that, and there are modern day examples with Senator Warnock, Georgia.

14:56Speaker 1:I love him. Oh, I love him too.

14:58Speaker 2:Senator Ossoff and Georgia. So, and I think, and this is why, and I'm doing a YouTube series about changing politics in the South. I love it. And this is why, because I think, you know, I kind of go back to like 98 as the year where for a while, it.

15:16Speaker 3:Seemed like Democrats were on a path. It was called the new South.

15:21Speaker 2:I don't know if you remember that from Sophia, like it's just like deep recesses up in your young brain, but it was, there were a bunch of democratic governors that came out of the South at the time, like Bill Clinton, William Winter in Mississippi, who really was, succeeded in like after it was the one that kind of really got integration going after it was sort of like Governor Roy Hunt in North Carolina, the research triangle, right? Like all of these things with UNC and Duke and North Carolina State, South Carolina was Carol Campbell, Florida was Lawton Childs. So there was a generation of, and they were men, that were coming up in the South.

16:04Speaker 3:And I think Bill Clinton typifies the.

16:05Speaker 2:Best that had really were excited about the possibility, economic possibilities and opportunities in the sort of traditional democratic sense, but also understood the lives of the people.

16:16Speaker 3:That they were representing.

16:18Speaker 2:And I think that, you know, and Ossoff proves this, Warnock proves this, back in his day, Bill Clinton.

16:24Speaker 3:Proved this, which is, If you think deeply.

16:27Speaker 2:Enough about your argument, you can make it across an ideological spectrum I can't emphasize it enough. When we talk about like, oh, there's a division in the Democratic Party, there's the Democratic Socialists, and then there's the more establishment Democrats.

16:44Speaker 3:It is that there are a lot of that is about.

16:48Speaker 2:Fighting and judgment and just the way families fight. But when you step back and look at issues and what's important in people's lives, there is a connectivity.

17:00Speaker 3:Connectivity.

17:01Speaker 2:But not all politicians work as hard as I think those in the red states, southern states, Rocky Mountain states do to make that argument. And it is and I feel like so that is what I think the thing with Clinton with Bill Clinton was, was that he was this exciting new generation. And we see that now today, there's a lot of exciting, you know, new leadership But he had that sensibility of having being raised in a place where he knew that, you know, you got to talk to everyone. You know, that was a big thing that Clinton White House, we were not writing off any set of voters because they're never going to.

17:41Speaker 3:Vote for us or we don't need them. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

17:44Speaker 1:And now a word from our sponsors. One of the things I love, I'll never forget, you know, him going to talk to groups of hunters. And people are like, you remember that? I got my first gun for my 12th birthday. You know, people are like that, you know, crazy liberal wants to take our guns away. I'm like, I'm a sharpshooter, baby. Like, what are you talking about?

18:12Speaker 3:No, I don't.

18:14Speaker 1:But I think it's crazy that we don't regulate weapons like we regulate cars. Like, what are we talking about? And I loved that. President Clinton, when he was campaigning, went and spoke to people and said, I'm not trying to take away your hobby with your family, your Saturday, you know, with your son. And I'm not trying to take away the way that you, you know, teach your sons or your daughters about how to live off the land and how to feed your family, if that's part of why you do it. But I do want to protect people. I do think we need some sanity here.

18:52Speaker 1:And it really brought the temperature down. And when we talk about how things are today, you see somebody... I love seeing how Senators Warnock and Ossoff are really breaking through the noise. And let's be frank, we're two women having this conversation. I think people are unfortunately still more willing to listen to men. I look at the ways they are heard and I look at the ways someone like the brilliant AOC is vilified. And I think part of it is because she's from New York. And I think part of it is because she's a woman. And then when you hear her get out and talk to people, she has that gift of being able to communicate political complexity so well and to personalize it. And yet we do seem to be fighting this sort of ideological war in these PR campaigns run by, you know, the Heritage Foundation and whoever else.

19:48Speaker 3:Yeah.

19:49Speaker 1:Is that part of why you wanted to make The Long Play? And for our friends at home, you know, Jen's shows are all incredible, as you now know. But The Long Play is the new show. It's six episodes. The full title is Long Play, Winning the South. you can watch it on YouTube. I love, by the way, that you democratized this for us. Thank you so much. Cause you know, I loved the circus, but not everybody has HBO or I'm sorry, Showtime. And so I love that anybody can watch this. I'm just so curious, the difference between the first Clinton campaign and where we're at now and, and this sort of ferocity that feels like it's been engineered, especially in the South. Like you're from there and you've gone back there for this show and you've seen everything that's happened in between. Where do you think it comes from? What, what surprised you about the South today?

20:40Speaker 2:I think that, I mean, there's, there's so much, we should go back and talk about AOC some more. Cause like, I feel like she is a monster talent. And like the thing that she has in common with Bill Clinton is she understands what people's lives are like. And you get that when you, You know, when anyone speaks with her, they're going to they are going to be able to if she can get in front of people.

21:00Speaker 3:Right. Yeah.

21:01Speaker 2:She's going to be able to she's going to be able to translate that.

21:03Speaker 3:But what I I really.

21:05Speaker 2:Wanted to go back to the South because I feel like, first of all, it drives politics in America. And I think people don't appreciate that. Like nothing stays in the South. you know, the first right to work legislation, the sort of anti-labor legislation passed in Texas in the fifties. And then it, you know, then it spread, you know, most of the abortion restrictions, they start in the South. Most of the, most of the efforts that make it harder for people to vote start in the South and move elsewhere. So, and I have just, it's always bothered me as a Democrat that for, I would say again, like maybe the last 25, 30 years, 25, I guess, really, there.

21:45Speaker 3:Was this sort of write-off of sounds.

21:47Speaker 2:I know.

21:48Speaker 3:Just ride it on.

21:49Speaker 1:I don't get it.

21:49Speaker 2:It is like, it's like, I mean, I had this weird sense that it was sort of like the Southeast, like the SEC region of the country was like hermetically sealed from politics.

21:58Speaker 3:And we just weren't.

21:59Speaker 2:Going to go back to any of those Gulf Coast states or, and also there's, you know, and that's just bad politics.

22:05Speaker 3:It's also bad leadership.

22:07Speaker 2:If you can't really, it is a really important dynamic part of the country that.

22:12Speaker 3:Drives a lot of our culture.

22:14Speaker 2:And you can't just ignore it. Even if you could, it's also if you want to be president, you want to lead the country, you need to lead.

22:22Speaker 3:All of the country. But now, also, every.

22:27Speaker 2:Every demographic is moving to the South.

22:28Speaker 3:It is the fastest growing region.

22:30Speaker 2:Texas, North Carolina, Georgia will probably all have more congressional seats after the next census. You cannot win, a Democratic candidate cannot win going, probably in 2028, maybe you only need to win one state in the South. But going forward, you're going to have to win multiple states in the South. Multiple states in the South. And so there's a practical reason to understand it, but I also just have a sense that it's ready for some kind of, And so what I found is that there's just gross, gross negligence, inertia that has made it hard for Democrats to compete in places like Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama. But it is all right there. People are ready for something new, Sophia. And it was like, I just felt it most. I guess in Tennessee, which is has one party rule. They after the Clay decision, the Supreme Court this spring to undo the Voting Rights Act. They moved within one week to get rid of the last remaining Democratic district, the last remaining take to divide up the last remaining black city in Texas, Tennessee into three different districts. You know, and you're like, for what?

23:49Speaker 1:It's just so brazen, and it's so bigoted.

23:51Speaker 3:Well, and it's funny. I interviewed a Republican.

23:53Speaker 2:One of the things we really try to do is talk to everybody.

23:57Speaker 3:So talk to Republicans.

23:58Speaker 2:First episode, I did an interview with Marjorie Taylor Greene, who's someone I've gotten to know over the last six years or so, and a state rep in Tennessee, Jeremy Fasson, who was the chair of the House Republican.

24:11Speaker 3:Caucus in the state of Tennessee.

24:15Speaker 2:So he's like, I'm a hardcore conservative Tea Party guy, and I am leaving uh, elected office because it's just getting too crazy, you know, and, and, but still he voted great guy, mixed race family, you know, real clear about not carrying racism and to her very sincere, everybody, you know, people need to understand, you know, how, you know, it's not like, I think you can, if you're, if you don't live in the South or have a, you know, You may have the wrong impression of where Republicans are coming from down from there on some of these issues that that that buttress race. But still, even though he was frustrated with dysfunction in his own party and, you know, virulently anti-racist, he voted to carve up Memphis in.

24:57Speaker 3:The three districts. Why? And he said, well, you know, politics. And it's like there's no pushback, Sophia.

25:04Speaker 2:There's no because there are no there's no Democrats to fight back.

25:09Speaker 3:People aren't challenged. Their positions are never challenged. They're not.

25:13Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think it's so easy to go along with what everyone else is doing. Even if you know your core, there's something about it that's not right. Because there's no one challenging you. And that was just so, you're like, well, this is why this has happened in the South is because there's just no opposition. There's no healthy opposition. There's no argument. There's no debate, thoughtful, friendly, spirited debate. It's just been forfeited. And that, it's easy to change though, I think. You think?

25:46Speaker 1:Because what I don't understand is this falling in line even when you know it's wrong. And somebody said recently something I thought was very astute that, you know, Democrats get lost in the weeds because we're really debating policy. And sometimes we forget to talk to people about feelings. And because of that, you can put a bunch of Democrats in a room and they'll agree on 90% of a candidate's points. But if they don't agree on the last 10%, they won't vote for that candidate. Which makes me crazy because I'm like, this isn't, you don't have to marry this person. You just need this person to be in charge of the stuff that, by the way, you don't want to be in charge of. You want a responsible person to handle for you so you can go back to living your life. And then they said on the other side, it seems that on the Republican end, you can disagree on 90%. But if you agree on 10% of issues, you fall in line. Like this guy you're talking about who voted to do this thing that he knew was wrong, but he did it to support his party.

26:42Speaker 3:Yeah.

26:42Speaker 1:And I can't square that. And I struggle with how we are ever going to move forward or perhaps build a more just world, perhaps gain back some of the bipartisanship we used to see if we can't say wrong is wrong and has to be on both sides. But we can then debate how you think it's the most beneficial to invest these tax dollars. You know, what you think are the most important programs we need to, you know, make sure our American school children have, like whatever it may be. It feels like you see people cause harm and then go, but I had to. And I don't understand that. And to your point, I've lived in the South.

27:34Speaker 1:I know how wonderful people are. I know that the stereotypes of them are just as annoying as the stereotypes of people from California. And by the way, none of them are completely accurate. And yet the stereotypes seem to be what we're fighting about now and not the actual way forward.

27:51Speaker 3:Yes, we are fighting about the stereotypes. We are fighting about the things that are fake.

27:56Speaker 2:And I think that I'm going to say a bunch of, you know, like a bunch of stuff that sort of, that's going to create it. Just from like my different experiences on this, but we're fighting over the stereotypes because we don't talk to each other. It's easy to believe in the stereotypes, you know, like one woman I met, she's like, you know, I don't hate black people.

28:17Speaker 3:Just as I'm sure it's just, as you're.

28:19Speaker 2:Not, you don't, you know, you're not, you're not hoping women get late term abortions.

28:24Speaker 3:And I was like, what?

28:25Speaker 2:You know?

28:25Speaker 3:So like she actually, this woman, I think, Pensacola, Florida.

28:29Speaker 2:I think that nice lady, whatever. I think she, you know, that's just sort of the stereotype is like, I think they think we're, you know, a woman like myself, you know, a hardcore Democrat works for Hillary Clinton. Yeah.

28:45Speaker 3:Hoping that. that women will get late-term abortions.

28:51Speaker 1:No!

28:51Speaker 2:That I am pushing her child to change genders against the child's will. You know, this is, like, how bad that's... So, you know, the way I try to look at it is, if I believed... to be true, what they believe to be true, you can understand why they're scared.

29:07Speaker 3:And this is why just listening.

29:11Speaker 2:And talking to people and not letting there be silos, it's just so important. So when I go to a Republican rally with Republican candidates or a Trump rally or something, and I want to interview someone, I walk up and say, hi, I'm Jennifer. I work for Bill Clinton because that's the easiest one for them to handle. I work for Barack Obama.

29:33Speaker 3:And I work for Hillary Clinton.

29:35Speaker 2:And I'm here because I want to understand where you're coming from. And they will, like, I have never had a bad reaction.

29:43Speaker 3:I've never, you know, even in the, you know, even in 2020.

29:46Speaker 2:In Trump rallies and people really appreciate that I was upfront with them, explained exactly where I'm coming from.

29:55Speaker 3:And then I.

29:57Speaker 2:They're not trying to suss out who I am or what I'm hiding. And then they're willing to be open with me. And I think that that is like a really, that's a really important place to start. But you can't, and you just can't like forfeit. You got to stand up and particularly in places where there's not a lot of um, Democrat, you got to stand up and raise your hand to be like, I'm one of your, I'm your neighbor.

30:24Speaker 3:I'm your friend. You know, me, I see you with the tailgates. We all like the same things. I'm not trying to me.

30:29Speaker 2:And also, by the way, I happen to be a Democrat.

30:31Speaker 1:Right.

30:31Speaker 2:And start to normalize that. Um, South Carolina used to have no Democrats. This Republicans would run unopposed, just unopposed. Um, in Congress, there'd be no Democratic candidate. And this year for the first time, cause there's a lot of people in South Carolina doing great work. There are candidates in every race for the state legislature and for Congress. You know, so this is like and it's homegrown and it's organic. And that's how you start to build up an infrastructure.

31:01Speaker 2:But if you know, if with these silos, if people don't know any Democrats or people that are people don't.

31:08Speaker 3:Speak up, they're going to believe the stereotypes.

31:11Speaker 2:So I don't see any any solution other than like old fashioned talking to each other.

31:18Speaker 1:But I think that's always where everything starts, you know, especially the internet and a lot of these dark money political organizations. They're funding this online discourse that anyone who's not like you is a boogeyman, is out to get you. And the easiest way to undo that is to talk to people. And, you know, it's part of the reason I'm excited to be having conversations like this around the midterms. And even outside of the political arena, for me, I know that what's true for all humans is we just want to be seen. We want to be valued. We want to be heard, at least for me. And I think most of the people I know, we also want to listen. And I don't want to listen while I'm looking over your shoulder. I want to listen. I want to hear your story. And I think we really need more of that. And I'm curious, you know, The long play really takes a long view of the South. And you did, as you said, you traveled everywhere. You talked to all sorts of people. I'm curious if there were things that you saw or that you heard while you were on the road that gave you that feeling, that hopeful feeling.

32:28Speaker 3:Three things. One, Texas.

32:33Speaker 2:We met with PTAs. PTA is a huge deal in Texas right now. And there were three Republican women, one who was like a never Trump Republican, right?

32:41Speaker 3:She like left a while ago, Mindy.

32:45Speaker 2:Two others who Fort Worth, Tarrant County, this is like the swing area of Texas. I went into that state not believing in Tallarico. I did not believe that he could win. Really?

32:55Speaker 3:Came out feeling very different. Yeah.

32:57Speaker 2:So, and then two other women who had been, you know, voted for Republicans most of their life, evangelical Christian. And They are furious about the MAGA lies that they were told about what was happening in their schools. This one woman, so great, this woman, Erin, and she said, you know, her child was an infant during COVID. She's like, I believed it when they said they were teaching critical race theory. I believed it when they said that there were boys and girls bathrooms and boys and girls sports. And so I voted for this candidate. And then my son goes to school and none of it is true. She's like, they're just teaching normal history. You know, we need to eat the good stuff, the bad stuff. You know, another woman was upset because she said, I'm an evangelical Christian.

33:39Speaker 2:They're teaching the 10 commandments. I don't need my child to be taught the 10 commandments. That's not why he's going to school.

33:44Speaker 3:I want him to get dual.

33:46Speaker 2:She's like, I want him to go continue through his dual language program. I want him to continue, you know, and they, and this one woman said, she said, I feel like I've been duped. And what was interesting, Sophia, was that it was, People were saying, instead of saying, well, I heard or I read, they're saying, I.

34:02Speaker 3:Know, I experienced.

34:05Speaker 2:And they were like taking ownership of it. And so then I said, okay, so maybe you're not going to vote for Governor Abbott. or you're not going to vote for Ken Paxton, but you're not voting for the Democrats, Gina and a host.

34:18Speaker 3:For governor or James Calrico. And they're like, Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One of them was like, she's like, I got Calrico money.

34:24Speaker 2:They're like, he is a minister.

34:27Speaker 3:That is what we need.

34:28Speaker 1:I would be proud to.

34:29Speaker 3:Have him living next to me. He is a pastor in his church.

34:34Speaker 2:You know, and they, so, but what was so great wasn't like, it was that, they were, that they were just, you know, and they were like, I am open.

34:44Speaker 3:To voting for anyone in 28. You know, we talked a little bit about that.

34:48Speaker 2:And I think it's partly because Trump's not really an ideological conservative. And, and it just, the one thing that was good is like, it felt like we're coming to the end of a Trump era, you know, knocking on wood that like he bathed the rules of, of democracy or, you know, courts forced him to do that. But people are ready to, for something new and kind of thinking for themselves.

35:12Speaker 3:That's one. The other one is Georgia.

35:15Speaker 2:Georgia is so different than any other Southern state. And it's because of decisions individuals made 60 years ago.

35:22Speaker 3:And 20 years ago.

35:23Speaker 2:So 60 years ago, after the end of Jim Crow, White mayor of Atlanta, Hartfield, you know, we know Hartfield Jackson Airport. This is a lot of black residents in Atlanta. And he said that Atlanta is the city too busy to hate. Now, part of that was economic because it's like racism is bad for business. But they made a decision to build the Atlanta airport because it made a huge biggest airport, busiest airport in the world. Because they knew that would support a black middle class. in atlanta it was very intentional and then of course you know it's cradle the confederacy birthplace of civil rights you know you have all these great martin luther king and everybody passed through there don lewis individuals speaking out making decisions and then you have warnock ossoff today very aware of that tradition you know warren ossoff talks to me about how he's jewish John Lewis made sure that he did not forget the Black Jewish Alliance that was so important in the civil rights era. How symbolic it was, but also important for the future and the future of Atlanta that Warnock and John Ossoff were elected from Georgia on

36:32Speaker 2:the same day. They are steeped in that history. And then, of course, you have the women like Stacey Abrams, LaTosha Brown, who was one of the founders of Black Voters Matter, who decided, you know, they started doing this work 20 years ago. of building up infrastructure outside of the Democratic Party around voting.

36:52Speaker 3:And civic engagement.

36:54Speaker 2:And, you know, even after post-Calais, Black voter turnout is up in every primary that there has been since the Calais decision in the South. Because people are like, so it's like, it's just the decisions we make today will affect us 50 years from now. The decisions we make today will affect us in the midterms. And then you see. And you see, that is why Atlanta, that's why Georgia is different from every other state in the South, is because just these individuals made these decisions to do this.

37:28Speaker 2:And then the third thing that makes me really hopeful is, which we haven't talked about yet, I did, I'm a creator and director of a sports documentary. And it's about the men and women that built the Buffalo Bills Stadium. Yes. And wow, America could use a dose of what Buffalo's got because these are people that have.

37:47Speaker 3:Been through such tough times. They hang together.

37:50Speaker 2:They support that. And it's funny because it's not just that they support the Buffalo Bills. The Buffalo Bills, the players themselves love this town where it's an average of 14 degrees and 31 mile per hour winds when you're on the football field every day because of the unconditional love and support that that community gives them. And you're like, this is what the best of America is. hardworking people having each other's back, loving each other, supporting each other.

38:18Speaker 2:You know, they built up a good game.

38:19Speaker 3:They have a bad game. It doesn't matter.

38:20Speaker 2:That town is going to be there to support them. And then of course, all these people came together, thousands of people, four years of work to build this incredible stadium for their, I mean, the pride that these people who worked on the stadium have is just incredible. So that is like the third thing that like Buffalo man, I feel like it's, you know, the way like Detroit became cool. Yes.

38:44Speaker 1:That's my home away from home. Don't you love it?

38:46Speaker 3:I love Detroit.

38:47Speaker 1:I do too.

38:48Speaker 3:I do too. They're just so, they're so proud.

38:50Speaker 2:There's so much pride in Detroit and coming back to such an American thing.

38:54Speaker 3:Yes.

38:54Speaker 2:They don't talk about, they don't talk about party. I, you know, I've worked on this show for over a year and not one person. I have no idea, no idea the politics of anybody that I met with or that we shop with.

39:06Speaker 1:That's really cool. We'll be back in just a minute. but here's a word from our sponsors. It's stories like that that remind you of what we do really well here. The kind of hopefulness and innovation and really American essence of these great cities that we just don't quit on them. And it feels like that's the energy that we need to put into these races and frankly, into each other, into our neighborhoods. And I'm really excited to be with you today, as you know, but also in the coming weeks as we lead into the midterms, I'm going to get to chat with Dr. Annie Andrews, who you talked to in long play. I just love her. And for our friends at home, she's running for Senate in South Carolina.

39:56Speaker 1:She's a doctor. She's a mom. She's just like a total smart badass, who I think like some of those women you were talking about was like, enough is enough. This is crazy. And clearly a mom needs to come in and fix this.

40:08Speaker 2:What I like about Annie Andrews is she doesn't talk about like a politician. She just started getting involved in politics. She's run a couple of times for different races and just like, wait a minute. No one knows what they're doing. I'm really worried about health care.

40:22Speaker 3:You know, I'm really worried about RFK. I'm a doctor.

40:25Speaker 2:All these things are making my life harder. All of my job harder. All these things are making my life harder, you know, and raising kids.

40:31Speaker 3:You know, she is she is speaking.

40:34Speaker 2:Exactly what the women in South Carolina are saying. feeling, I think, regardless of party. She doesn't really have a partisan message.

40:42Speaker 3:It is. And that is it's a very tough state still.

40:47Speaker 2:You know, I applaud the Democrats in South Carolina for at least assembling a team.

40:51Speaker 3:Right.

40:51Speaker 2:They're fighting back now. They have candidates everywhere. And it's an interesting race because. All of a sudden you have Darlene Graham, the sister of Lindsey Graham, as the as an unknown candidate. Republican nominee for that Senate. So Annie has the opportunity to just, there's a lot of, South Carolina is changing every day. More people move in there every day to make that kind of argument. I mean, I can feel the age of accountability.

41:19Speaker 3:For, I mean, coming.

41:21Speaker 1:I can't come fast enough.

41:23Speaker 2:Again, I think Senator Ossoff is particularly good talking about that and putting in a historic perspective about what we should expect from our leaders and what our Constitution demands of them, too. Not like not just like, like, let me go get Trump. But like these people all work for us and they need to be held accountable. And I can feel that that coming. But it is.

41:43Speaker 3:Democrats are different than Republicans. Yes. Like you noted that before. We argue over the details. We do.

41:48Speaker 2:We argue over the details. And they're built differently. It's a different, they're a different party. But if it weren't for us, there'd be nothing left of the Republic. So I guess it's okay to fight a little bit amongst ourselves.

41:59Speaker 1:I agree. We'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors. I think fighting and getting granular about how you build relationships a better world is important. You know, I spoke to Timothy Snyder recently.

42:17Speaker 3:Yeah, I saw that, yeah.

42:19Speaker 1:And he's just such a dream. And he echoed something that I say, you know, as a person who talks to a lot of young people, I'm like, every single thing you interact with all day is the result of a policy. The roads you drive on, the stoplights in your neighborhood, the stop signs in your neighborhood, the water that comes out of your faucet. Like, so these people who get obsessive about, oh, smaller government, I'm going, this only exists because of government. The world, we've actually forgotten what good government is supposed to do. It's supposed to feel kind of invisible, but it's also supposed to support you.

42:52Speaker 1:And the money you pay as a citizen or a resident of this country, the tax dollars you pay, you're investing in the country and the country is supposed to give you a return on your investment. And these guys who've sort of hijacked the whole thing that are taking all the money for themselves, you know, launching an American oligarchy, I'm like, you can't be long for this because people are going to wake up to the fact that all of our systems that we forgot only exists because of politics.

43:25Speaker 1:They're falling apart. Like the food recalls, we're done. I can't feed eggs to my kids. I'm done.

43:31Speaker 2:And the problem is when humans are able to hold so much dissonance and so much dissonance.

43:40Speaker 3:In their hearts and in their heads, particularly when it comes to politics.

43:44Speaker 2:And unless you are a political leader who is able to connect with the people you represent on a personal level, the most important thing to people.

43:55Speaker 3:look at what we, you know, look at what we value.

43:57Speaker 2:Look at how important football is in people's lives because it feels like it brings community and a sense of identity. You know, there's nothing more dominant in American culture.

44:06Speaker 3:Than the NFL. And like, what's that about? That's about being on a team.

44:10Speaker 2:That's about feeling like part of a community that is about your identity. And that is, really important. And Democrats have never fully appreciated that. And so like, you gotta like, before you can talk to people about what you're going to do with the roads, you got to get to, you got to make sure people know that you don't just understand what their lives are like, you respect the work they do, you expect you respect the contributions that they are making to.

44:37Speaker 3:Your town, or you're like, that stuff. And it's just like, It's.

44:40Speaker 2:Not like I'm going to come in and take care of this problem for you or you're stupid for not not seeing that like this is the right way to do something. It's like we're in this together. And, you know, and that so it's not it's that middle part of it that we've just really.

44:57Speaker 3:Lost in the last.

44:59Speaker 2:And I think the problem with Trump for Democrats has been. it's so hard, understandably so, to just fight him and try to contain him legally or, you know, clean up the mess or just that we're not thinking deeply enough in like with intellectual arguments or just making the, or making the case about what, about what we want to do and how much we love this country and, you know, and everything that the people in it are capable of and why we, and why we love them, you know, so like that's all gotten lost. And that, I think that's part of the reason why, why a lot of folks have not been open to listening to Democrats. Yeah. And, you know, there are, you know, the people are the best at this generally, you know, you're, you're from a red state and, or you're a governor, you know, like the governors are great at this.

45:53Speaker 3:Yeah.

45:54Speaker 1:The governors, the governors are so great. I mean, Maura Healey, my God, all of them. I feel so lucky to, you know, have, been in the company of a handful of those great, I mean, great, great damn governors, but especially the women, my God, they're just phenomenal. I'm curious, you know, we're, we're looking down the barrel of this next election and, and I, I feel you on this, you know, you, you can feel the tide turning, you know, you feel the air shifting.

46:24Speaker 3:Yeah.

46:25Speaker 1:I really am hopeful we can start to remember that our neighbors are not our enemies and And we're gonna do the work to get there. But I wonder whether it's between now and then, or if you think about it in terms of the rest of the year, personal, professional, what feels like, aside from trying to get folks elected, what feels like your work in progress?

46:46Speaker 2:Oh, my work in progress feels like figuring out there is this opportunity now. People are ready for something new. And like, how do you harness that So it's that moment's not missed because it could go, it could go either way. And how do you give, rather than how terrible everything is and how hard everything is, like a sense of optimism and possibility in everything that I do, because everything that you do and we do.

47:18Speaker 3:Like, it's a hard time. It's a hard time in the world.

47:20Speaker 2:It's a hard time in politics. It's a really hard time in economics. It's a hard time in the like stupid digital world. It's hard breaking through. It's hard being heard.

47:30Speaker 1:Yeah, you got to lean on people. I try to remind myself, you know, it's a relay. It really, we're on a relay team and sometimes you're the one leading the pack and sometimes you got to fall back and let somebody else do it because nobody can do it all the time all by themselves. And I, I'm proud to, I'm proud to be on a team with you. I'll tell you what.

47:52Speaker 2:And yeah, can I say one thing about, can I say one more thing about women? Cause you know, it's like we had Gloria Steinem passed. It's the 10th anniversary of Hillary Clinton's campaign.

48:03Speaker 3:That's when I first met you.

48:05Speaker 2:And you know, there's talk about not women, not, running in 2028, which I will hate, because I think there's like some fans, you know, like, I think, you know, AOC would be fantastic. I think Gretchen Whitmer would be a fantastic candidate. I hate it when Democrats say, well, when we tolerate the misogyny and the, you know, by saying, well, others won't vote.

48:30Speaker 3:For, won't vote for a woman.

48:33Speaker 2:And it is harder than I, you know, 10 years ago, I didn't expect it's gonna be that hard to elect the first woman president. Um, and because I, I, I thought women had, you know, I'd done really well. Women had done really well in the world. And we liked the first black person. I thought that was harder. And it's just different because we just, everybody, you know, the biases are deep and they are in everyone. Uh, there are there, you know, they're unconscious, but they, uh, but they are all there, but they're so real, but is.

49:05Speaker 3:But like, we can't be.

49:07Speaker 2:The ones that say, well, that's like how it is. Like the real, like that is what I feel so, and Hillary Clinton talks about this all the time. Like every time I talk to her, she's like, make sure you keep writing about women. Cause it's like, yeah, we got to keep, you know, you there. It's all of it. It's just, it's also just like right, right there for taking. I think America could elect a woman the next time around. I think it could like a black candidate next time around.

49:28Speaker 2:It is like, do you have, you understand the American people? Do you love this country? And do you have a plan for taking it forward? I think people are open for all of that. So it's like, That's a really important part of the real area right now for women, because it can feel that demoralizing the last, you know, I mean, just, you know, I mean, the loss of Rose, the defeat of Kamala Harris, it's just like one blow after another. But like, we're the ones that got to dig in now and like, really keep going. And you do that every you do that with every show. So it's like, that's just like part of what happens here.

50:05Speaker 3:It's really important.

50:07Speaker 1:Thank you so much. I mean, I think, you know, one of the things I really value about our cohort of, you know, friends and activist fellows out in the world is like, yeah, we're not going to lie. Sometimes it's really hard to keep taking the hits. But if I'm not going to get back up, like, there's no way I'm staying down.

50:27Speaker 2:And you don't.

50:29Speaker 1:And, you know, our dear Adrian and like all of our friends, we just keep going because we believe in this country. For all her faults, I love America. And I want her to live up to who she says she is.

50:46Speaker 3:Yeah.

50:47Speaker 1:So we keep going.

50:48Speaker 3:Yeah, we keep going.

50:50Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much for coming today. I love the show so much. Friends, if you haven't seen Long Play, Winning the South on YouTube, go and watch it. I just think it's so phenomenal. I can't wait for the doc on the Bills Stadium. I'm so excited about it. And I just, I hope I get to be in person with you soon. I miss you.

51:14Speaker 3:Thank you so much. So good to see you.

51:15Speaker 1:Thanks for coming today.