The Physics of Easy Discipline with Jia Jiang

0:05if you love your work, you're not working, and that's true. You know, that's true. Don't work. Love. You know, have a, have a life where every day you are excited to get up and, and do, you know, with the task, not with the result, but with the task, and then your life will be much better Welcome to Hacking Your ADHD. I'm your host, William Curb, and I have ADHD. On this podcast, I dig into the tools, tactics, and best practices to help you work with your ADHD brain.

0:35Hey, team. I've been on a bit of a break this summer, but I wanted to help celebrate International ADHD Awareness Day by dropping a new episode. So we often think that to achieve big things, it requires feeling miserable during the whole process. We buy into the myth that if a task isn't agonizing, it isn't worth the time we put into it. Today, my guest is Jia Jiang, an expert in rejection and resilience, a Duke MBA graduate, and the founder of Wuju Learning.

1:04After stepping away from a stable corporate career at Dell and LinkedIn to launch a tech startup, Jia realized his deepest bottleneck wasn't a lack of talent, but a profound fear of rejection. Fueled with this insight, he launched 100 Days of Rejection Therapy and filmed himself requesting absurd things from strangers daily. And this is actually where I first came across Jia 11 years ago. So it was quite the treat to get to talk with him and learn about his new book, Easy Discipline.

1:31Jia brings a unique lens to the table because he's battled his own severe, late-understood ADHD and procrastination loops since growing up in Beijing, where ADHD just wasn't considered a thing. In this episode, we talk about shifting away from transac- In this episode, we talk about shifting away from transactional, anxiety-inducing task completion and moving toward what he calls the artist mindset. We also break down how masking and over-indexing on how other people perceive us turns into a form of self-sabotage, where we pre-reject ourselves before we even give our true chase, before we , where we pre-per, blah, where we pre-reject ourselves before we even give our true traits a chance.

2:21If you'd like to follow along on the show notes page, you can find that at HackingYourADHD.com/303. All right, keep on listening to find out how the myth of Sisyphus is secretly a story about your unfinished to-do list. so exciting to have you here. I have read your first book a decade ago, which is wild, uh, well before I started this podcast, and so I was real excited to see, your name come up in my email. But, uh, let's hear a little bit about this, new book that you've been writing Yeah.

2:54This book, my first book was about rejection, right? How to overcome my fear of rejection. And the second book, it's a little bit, you know, and I would say the root is very similar, but the, the topic is very different. It's called Easy Discipline. it talks about how to have discipline the easy way. You know, in our society, we all think about, especially in the past 10 years, right? Uh, we talk about, Navy SEALs or monks talk about how you have to have war against yourself, and do the hard things and, and, and tolerate pain.

3:29And I just feel like… And I, when I saw those, I'm like, "Wow, those sounds inspiring," but man, I've been having wars against myself my whole life, so and I've, I've never won a war. Uh, so, uh, and but every time I win is because I'm trying to go hard, it's because I'm trying to go easy. It's trying to find what I love, what I like. And so that's what this book is about. How do you go with your human nature rather against it, and to achieve discipline?

3:58Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense to me Because often we find ourselves trying to do things in the hardest way possible for no other reason than we think that's how you're supposed to do it. And it And that yeah, that you, you, like we see all these things, Navy SEALs being like, "Here's how to have this, like, discipline where we're going at things the hardest way possible and we're just, it doesn't matter, we're gonna willpower our way through."

4:20But, and that never worked for me No. I mean, it can work maybe in the short term. Depends on how long it lasts, right? Some some people, it lasts for a day or an hour. For some people, it might last a few weeks. But the thing is, that's not what you want. What you wanna have is a, a, a new life, right? How do you, uh, have lifelong achievement? How do you achieve your dreams? You don't achieve your dreams by a few days or a few weeks, then you lose the willpower.

4:49You know, when your willpower runs out and you fail. Look at all the New Year's New Year's resolutions people write, and 91% of them fail. And that… And, and when you do that over and over again, it just, you start trusting yourse- you, you stop trusting yourself. You're like, "I'm a failure. I can never do this." So when you not have you don't have confidence, that's, that's it. You, you lose, you know, then you lose the, the most important thing in your life, which is your, your self-belief.

5:16That's why I, I think the I call this hard discipline, right? It's grind, do, do the hard thing, feel the hard thing, and that's not sustainable. And that's why not just you have ADHD or not. A lot of people quit, um, you know, in the corporate cultures, and people feel they cannot sustain themselves Yeah. Well, 'cause it's a lot easier to do things hard when you have the motivation, when you have that, like, willpower there. But if you build the system to always need you to go 100%, you're gonna have days where you're like, "Oh, well, I was sick today," and going 100% is so much harder.

5:52I just can't keep that up Absolutely. When you have this 100%, this thing you have to continue to exert your will for something, and we, when you have make that your norm, the problem is that just it's against physics, right? The physics is, you know, there's friction and there's gravity. If gravity is pulling you down and you continue to push… So I, I'm, uh, in my book, I use this analogy of Sisyphus, right? A lot of people feel like they're like the Sisyphus, this Greek mythology, where you have to continuously push up a rock, and then over and over again, you know, before you hit the top, it roll to the bottom, you have to do it again and again.

6:33So, and you can't-- In real life, you can't sustain that, you know? And, uh, you know, after a couple pushes, you're like, "Ah, man, this is not gonna work out. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm a sucker." And then you… I, I, I can't, I can't, uh, push rocks. But the thing is, you can, if you love pushing rocks. You know, if you love uh, rock pushing your identity and something that you really love, like truly love, not force yourself to love, actually you truly enjoy, then that becomes, the rock pushing becomes a default state, and that's hard for you to stop, right?

7:02I see, you see a lot of people do things that you, you… A lot of people watch sports, a lot of people play video games. The thing is, to do this from out- for, for the people from outside who are like, "Man, what are you doing?" Right? Those, those… It, it must be very disciplined to actually c- not, not continuously do those things. But the people who are doing them, they're like, "Nah, I'm just… It, it's hard for me not to do it. And in fact, if you want me to stop, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go crazy. I have to keep going." I was thinking, what if you can turn work, something productive, something important to you, into that state, into that default state that you love?

7:36Now y- it, the gravity and your physics is for you. You feel like you're going downhill even though you're going uphill Yeah, it makes a lot of sense to me. Like I have friends that just love to run and I'm always just like, "That's not for me, but how, like how do they do that?" And they're just like, "Yeah, that's, I would feel so antsy if I didn't go running. Like I, it is what I have to do every day." Yeah. And we, we, we see, we see them as Superman, right?

8:04You must most, most, you must be the most disciplined person ever to run every day. How can I be like you? And the people who are inside are like, "Man, how, how can I not to?" Right? So how… The, the, the trick is how do you actually achieve that state where that action becomes something default and something you love Yeah, so what are some of the things that you can kinda do to shift your perspective that way? Yeah. So I, I write this in my book and, and, uh, you know, a lot.

8:32And I think the most, the first and, and most and for… You know, the most important thing is enjoyment, right? I call it EASY. It's a, uh, a system of E stands for enjoyment, A stands for artistry, S stands for a system, and Y stands for yourself. So you wanna start with enjoyment. Basically, you want to find out what is the thing that's naturally, that's easy for you. It's not… I mean, we all have something that's easy for us. We all do. But the thing is, we think those things are useless.

9:03People are in school and, and we're, we're like, "There's a right way to do things. There's a right way to, to, to, to accomplish something." And then we should be able to… And that's some- and, and we should be able to do that right way, even though we hate it, even though that's not for us. But w- because it's the right way, we gotta do it. That's for work, you know, that's for, uh, school and you… And, and but the problem is you can't sustain that you're like, "Oh, this whole thing, this whole profession, this whole thing is not for me," or, "Maybe the world is not for me," you know?

9:32And I w- and, and, and then so you just, you come to you, you're, you're trying to give up. So the number one thing is find that thing that's the feeling that's the most easy. So I'll give you an example Um, I, uh, I will start with the rejection thing. About, uh, over 10 years ago, I, um, uh, I started this… I, I've, I've always had this goal of wanting to be a p- um, entrepreneur. So it, it took me about, you know, uh, 16, 17 years of not doing it because I was afraid of rejection.

10:05So, and, and then finally when, when I hit 30, I was like, "I gotta do this, otherwise I, I'll get old." And I, I, I, you know, at the time my wife was pregnant and I was like, "I would never be able to be a, be entrepreneur. If I can't do this as a single guy, I, uh, I'll be never be able to do this as a guy with, as a dad." So I quit my job and started doing this, uh, you know, to build my company, and then I got rejected with the investment. And, and, and then number one thought came to my mind is, "Oh man, this is not for me.

10:34I gotta quit." You know, I hate this fundraising idea. I hate going to places where I, uh, I pitch and get judged. You know, I just hate that feeling. And then when I hate that feeling, I fail miserably because I keep looking for the right word to say, the, the right facial expressions to have, the right, the right idea to present, and I fail that. I, I get tight and I fail every time. So then I was like, "How can I feel better about rejection? How, how can I feel better about this in people interaction stuff?" So I started doing something, uh, is I started doing this thing called rejection therapy.

11:07I found this online where, you know, it teach you to go, go look for rejection instead of, you know, avoiding rejection. And I thought that was fun. That's something that, that, that sounds like I wanna do. So I just went out and did this thing called 100, uh, days of rejection therapy, where every day I would go out and look for rejection on purpose. And the th- and, and I started filming myself and my… I, I made a, I made a vlog and on YouTube.

11:33And I was, I was the first person who actually did this, and it, it went viral, you know. And, and 10, 10 years later, a lot of people are copying that nowadays. They do this on TikTok, right? And but the thing is, a lot of people are telling me, "Jia, you are so brave. You're doing this thing that, that, that we're so afraid of." But you know what? I-- Because I changed that mindset, instead of saying doing something I hate, I said, "How can I have the most fun in this interaction?" So instead of focusing on this result of getting yes or no, I focused on cracking jokes.

12:07I focused on having this interaction as most enjoyable as possible, and I, I, I switched the goal to how can I be the best self? How can I just ask the most impossible stuff and see how funny it was for, for me? See, that mi- you know, that mental shift completely changed how I approached the same thing, looking for rejection. And I was having a great time. People were saying me j- people were telling me I was brave. I wasn't. I was just having a great time.

12:32So switching that, the, the, the, this mindset of something that I gotta do this, do this hard thing and even though I hate it, to be like, what's the thing that can be-- I can find that's the most funny, that's the most fun part of this interaction? Let me focus on having the maximum fun, right? And then I-- when I did that, the whole thing changed because I performed better. I was, I was no longer afraid. I was able to do this every day. So that's, that's the first thing I do, um, is to fi- is to find that, that, that sliver of activity that's, that can for you to be your best self Yeah, and I can totally see too shifting the goal from I'm going to ask someone for this, you know, crazy thing, uh, to I'm going to, I'm going to get rejected.

13:20That's the goal. Um, and if it doesn't happen, well, I'm actually going to enjoy the results anyways. But it makes it so much easier to be like, "Oh yeah, I'm just gonna go do this," because if I do it, then I hit the goal regardless of the outcome. Absolutely. Yeah. That, that's, that's… You, you can totally do that. And, and the thing is, it, my goal wasn't even to get rejected. You know, at the beginning it was, but it got better later on, uh, with my vlog, is because I stopped focusing on the result.

13:48I'll be like, you know, I'm shooting either a yes or no. That's the result I'm trying to get, right? If I just keep my eye on the result, you know, they, they keep saying you, you keep your eyes on the ball, that's fine, but if you hate the, the, the work, then you're not gonna get there. So I'm like, instead of focusing on this, I focus on this, which is maximum fun. You know, how, how can I have, how can I crack myself up? That was my goal. How can I crack myself up in this rejection request?

14:16And that, that shift of, from that goal to this, this, uh, this feeling, this heart, this, this having fun, uh, and, and being myself, in fact, having this goal, then I, I became so much, um, so much better. I just consistently show up and I couldn't stop Yeah. I mean, doing definitely focusing on the journey is so important because I don't… I've had so many times where like I've gotten that thing I wanted and then I was like, "Well, I don't actually care." That was not… It was the getting there that was the most important part Absolutely.

14:48And, you know, when we're talking about hiking, we're talking about, you know, or, or, uh… I mean, w- if we think, "Okay, if the end goal of this hike is I gotta cross the finish line," then you don't have to go. You know, you're already, you're already, you're already at the finish line, you know, when, when you, when, when you look around. And, or if the g- goal is have to see that scene, you know, and I just have to see it, and then when you get there, you're always very disappointed.

15:10The thing is, if you love that, if you're like, "I'm gonna enjoy every moment. I'm gonna have the most fun, you know, I'm gonna build momentum into my journey." Uh, I'm, uh, if my fun is through the walk itself, through the nature, through, through, uh, m- maybe even the companionship with someone who's arou- you know, who's with me. If you're focused on that step, the next step, then you can go as long as you want, you know. The, the, that's, because that's the fun part Yeah, and it doesn't really matter what the destination ends up being.

15:41It's whatever… Like yeah, sure, it's great if it's, you know, a fun end, but if it's also like, "Oh yeah, we just did a loop and we came back to where we started, but we enjoyed the entire time," great Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely So I'm thinking about how people, I mean, I'm sure a lot of people are listening to this and they're like, "Man, the rejection sounds scary, doing, uh, all of the…" Like, they're like, how can people, like, realistically try and get that shift in?

16:12'Cause they're, I know it's so hard to even picture themselves putting themselves out there like that Yeah. So you try a couple things, right? So I have, in my book, I wrote all kinds of tools of how to enjoy, how to do, how to do the hard things and not feeling hard. I'll give you a couple, uh, you know, I'll give a couple examples. Um, one is called, uh, um, momentum loop. You want to build momentum with every action you take, right? So, you know, 100 days of rejection, what I did was every day I tried to learn a s- I, I, I focused on the learning, right?

16:50I tried to focus on the journey. When I get reject… It doesn't matter if people say yes or no to me. That's actually, it doesn't matter at all. It matters what I learn from that moment, right? So, for example, one day I, I learned that the, you know, one of my rejection requests was I went out and asked for a burger refill, you know, and, then, then you, you, yeah, and you, you give me a, a, instead of a drink refill, instead of a drink refill, you give me a free burger.

17:16The thing is, I, I told I-- my goal is, all right, I'm not gonna run after rejection. I'm going to be like, you know, when, when that person says no, my goal is to stay and try to present myself. How do I… Why I'm asking, asking for burger? The thing is, I learned so much from that interaction by not running. I, I learned that if I don't run, I don't have to feel bad. The first day I asked someone… I asked, like, to borrow $100 from someone, and someone said, no, I just ran away.

17:48I felt so bad. I felt so embarrassed. But the next day, asked for a burger refill, I didn't run, and because I didn't run, I gave myself so much interaction, like so much time, so much opportunity to actually per- you know, to persuade that person having a good time. I learned that, okay, now I learned something important, even in one day. I, I… let me just apply that learning to the next day. So the next day and I asked for something else, you know, I, I tried to ask for, um, tried to speak, uh, you know, I went to Costco and say, "Hey, can I speak on your intercom?" Right?

18:18And then the person says, no. And then, but I start, start, I started negotiating. I started applying all these negotiation skills. You know, I start… And then, and then when I learned something else, I just start applying that again, again. Very quickly, I start building momentum on that, on, on, on that loop. I call this momentum loop. You know, a lot of times we, every day we do things, right? Whether it's your work, you feel like your work is very repetitive.

18:41You do the same thing over and over, and you feel bad, and you feel like, you know, kind of, uh, bored. But if you apply momentum and learning into whatever you're doing the next day, then you started feeling like you're g- you're growing. Even though people from outside think you're doing the same thing, but inside you feel like, oh, you're going downhill. You're going down-- either feeling like you're like a rock or rolling downhill. You feel good, you know, and, and you're growing and bigger and bigger.

19:06You're catching momentum. So that's one thing you can do I call this momentum loop. And another thing you can do is you can try to, um, have this thing called artist mindset, and this is a mental shift The artist mindset is, is try to turn every interaction you have, everything you do into a opportunity to create art. Okay? So lo- instead of trying to achieve a goal, having a transaction or finishing a task, you're like: No, that's not my goal. I'm here to perform art.

19:43What does art mean is I'm gonna have like lean into every moment, the mo- the as po- deeply as possible. I'm going to, you know, I'm gonna perform, I'm gonna have fun, I'm going to, going to even exaggerate in this moment, you know? And so, uh, you know, for example, now- nowadays when I write emails, you know, a lot of people in sales, they have to do cold outreach, you know, and I, I don't do that anymore. But even that, you know, but I try to turn every email I write, I turn to try to turn every interaction I make, you know, with you here with email, right?

20:15I wanna have this be like: How can I make this the most deep conversation I can have possible? You know, how can I, you know, just, just, uh, enjoy this every moment? Because this moment is not gonna be replicable. Every email will be n- not replicable. So if I focus on the part of a creation in that moment, and then I have to have no fear. I have no, like fear, I have no regret. I'm having the most, um, most fun. I'm gonna be the best self. So I call this the artist mindset.

20:49Yeah. I mean, this is, I'm really diving into my own thoughts here. Uh, wait, I'm like, I gotta get back into talking. But the… Because yeah, there's, uh, especially with ADHD, people have, um, so much of this, like, fear of how other people are going to react, and so they're, like, holding themselves in and masking, and it makes it really hard for a lot of people to then experience the joy of the moment. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's the, that's the thing, you know, the, the, the, the thing is the more you hold in yourself, right, the more you're like, you're so self-conscious, how, how can I present myself the right way?

21:33How can I make you like me, right? How can you, you know, uh, and then find the words that you like? When you do that, you start losing yourself. You get really tense, and people don't like you as much. People feel like you, you, they don't know what you're doing, you're tense, right? Shift the goal. The goal is to be your best self. Express. It's okay if the b- the person feel like, okay, maybe we don't make a connection. But what end up happening is people start finding you interesting.

21:58You know, people starting finding you like, oh, that person's different. It's not like the run-of-the-mill conversation that happens to everyone every day. This guy or this woman, you know, she's-- they're telling me something that's I can, I feel that's, that's I haven't heard before. That's weird and which is weird in a good way. And you can make that connection. And if, if, if they don't, some- sometimes you don't click, it's okay. You just spend the time to be the best self, and that's what matters the most Yeah.

22:26Well, and especially 'cause you're… Often what people are doing is they're just pre-rejecting themselves, where they're like, "Hmm, whoever, they're not gonna like who I actually am, so I'm gonna reject that version and be this fake person," which also never works out. Uh, and I don't know, it just seems to me that really thinking about things in terms of, like, getting over that re- fear of rejection is a huge step that are, is going to let people, you know, you know, ask for what they want and be the person they wanna be 100%. 100%. Don't, don't, uh, uh, you know, that, and that's a superpower, you know?

23:01That, that, that desire to be yourself and not worry about… And, and don't even worry about, like, w- how other people perceive you, you know? And worry about how you perceive yourself. That's a superpower. And when you do that, uh, you see that in, if you look around the people who, you know, who rule the world, really, the, the people who are, you know, who change industries, you know, whether in business, in art, they don't worry about how they're perceived.

23:27They worry about, like, you know, how they can drive that goal they have, how they can, you know, perform the best, right? They have this internal drive towards something, and then over the long term, that internal drive is always in alignment with who, who, who they are deep down, who they wanna be and who they are, and they go with that rather than how they're perceived. And the thing is, when you go… The, the people who change are always doing something weird.

23:55They're always weird. You know, if, if look at the people who, who are… Just, just, just, just imagine who you think the people who are successful. I mean, imagine the people who are, you know, world-changing. They're all weird in, in, in, in a way, and if you, uh, if they pr- if they care about how they're perceived, they n- they never got started, you know? And the thing is, is that weirdness, that strangeness, if they go deep into that, combined with their goal, combined their w- with their accomplishment, that becomes the person who changed the world, not the people who try to make everyone like them Yeah, and it's a silly goal anyways 'cause we already know, like, not…

24:32Like, I've, like, spent years pretending that I'm gonna get people to like me, and th- those people still don't like me, and it doesn't matter because w- why did I want them to like me in the first Yeah, didn't even know you. And there are so many people. There's so many people, you know. You don't need like, uh, you know, you know, even in 90% of the world to like you. You just need to, you, you just want to be the, be your best self and then jive with the person that, that, that gets you, right?

25:01If you can develop a tribe of people like you for 10% of world, that's enormous amount of tribe, right? So you don't even need that many people. Fi- find, even just find a small community of people that feels, that think like you, feel like you, that you feel you can connect with. Don't worry about the rest. They're not your customer. They're not your, your, your people Yeah, and it's, I mean, I know it's easy for us to say that in this 'cause people are like, "Oh yeah, how am I gonna find…" But it is, like it takes time and it does, it's not as much of it as a switch of changing your mindset, it is also like you have to build up that skill of learning how to get your brain to automatically think of these ways.

25:41The best way to do it is just to do it, right? You, you do it from the very, the, the, you know, you make a change from tom- tomorrow thinking, "How do I do the thing I love?" And go really deep on that. All right? Don't, don't go surface level, right? Do the things that you love and go deep and, and, you know, and then go that for a long time because, I mean, you should be able to do that for a long time because you love it Yeah, and it's, I don't know, it's, the… When I think about back to the times where I've, like, had the best time in my life, it's always when I get to be myself and get to be arou- around people that get me And, and also you perform the best, right?

26:19Whatever task, whatever goal you have, that's where, you know, the, I mean, I, I, you know, going back to, to, to, to your life and think about what's the most highlight, what's the f- where you feel the best, you're the proudest, right? You feel like, "Man, I'm really succeeding. I'm really achieving my goals." And that's where your, your… That's, those moments are not the moments you think about the goals too much. Those are moments you are really, I'm just, you're just being yourself Yeah.

26:47So, before we started, you were mentioning that this book was something that is… You didn't write the book about ADHD, but you wrote it because of your ADHD. Could you tell me a little bit more about that? I've had ADHD my whole life. Even growing up, I grew up in China and we didn't have that term, you know, and, and that term of ADHD was for something like someone who should be in the mental hospital. So we didn't have the, even the vocabulary for ADHD, you know, this, this, this medical term.

27:14And it's something that I started learning, you know, after I co- after coming to America, going to high school and college. I had big goals. I had huge, like enormous goals. I, I, I met Bill Gates when I was 14, you know. It's not a… He's not the most popular figure nowadays, right? But back then he was cool. You just have to trust me. So he was really cool back then. And I met him, you know, I, I, I saw him speak in China and I was like, "I wanna be that guy."

27:39So came to America, had this enormous goal, and I'm like, "There's-- I'm gonna do the hardest thing to actually achieve that goal." So I, took on computer s- like, I was like, Bill Gates started, you know, um, started, uh, uh, he, he, he, he did computer science in college, right? You know, and he went to Harvard. I'm like, "I'm, I'm going to… can't go to Harvard, but let me go s- go to school early." So I s- I, you know, I went to college at seven early, uh, you know, only as I turned 17.

28:10I was like, "Good, I feel like a genius." Like, I'm gonna take computer science, right? That's my major. I'm gonna just, uh, and I'm gonna graduate in three years. I would be a boy genius. Before I turn 20, I'm gonna start building my own Microsoft. That was my goal, right? Then I s- then things just went awry because of my ADHD. I feel like I couldn't focus in class and especially when I do homework, and these were… So this is a typical day for me, right?

28:36After school, I would go to a classroom. I would go in and I was like, "I'm gonna do homework." This is like, "I gotta, I gotta do this thing, you know, tomorrow is…" So I sit down a- and I was like, "Oh man, this thing is tough. This is… You know what? I, I'll, I'll do better if I feel a bit better right now. How do I feel better? Hmm. How about if I just get online and, and, and answer some emails and maybe I look at the news and, and so I, I'll just do it for five minutes."

29:01Okay. Then I get on, I start and then, and at the time wasn't, there wasn't even smartphone back then. I would just like, you know, go to, go to web browsers, why not? And quickly, two hours are, is, are gone. I look at the clock, 6:00clock become, became 8:00 o'clock. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, you know, I just wasted two hours. I feel terrible." So, but I gotta force myself to do work. So I closed all the tabs and start doing work. And you know what, why the things, the work still feels bad.

29:29It still sucked And, and, and now I just feel even worse because I wasted two hours. And you know what can feel, make me feel a little bit better than me doing a little bit more browsing? I can feel a little bit better so I can do the work. And then I do it again, two hours are, is over. And quickly f- five, six, seven hours are gone. It was then like 3:00 in the morning. And sometimes the morning janitor will, will walk in, start to just clean the carpet, and then they'll look at me as like, "What a loser."

29:54That was my… Those were my nights of endless nights of really like Sisyphus pushing the rock over and over again, of not getting anywhere, not doing any work. And then I, my w- I-- it was the hardest time for me. I was deeply depressed, you know, and clinically depressed and be… And I have this high goal. And people were… And, and, and then and people look at me, they're like, "What? You're, you're failing at school? Look at you. You're Asian. How can you be bad at study?" I'm like, "I'm sorry, I'm not performing up to my ethnicity." because I got ADHD.

30:24So those were the toughest times. The thing is, and I, and, and that's why I have this, like, Sisyphus thought. I was like, "I, I can't do this. I'm gonna fail. If I do this for rest of my life with this type of, day every day, I'll fail quickly and I will hate myself." And I did hate myself. So I s- and then when I… La- later on, when I sw- switch the mindset is like, "I can't s- I can't do this thing I hate anymore, and I… because I'll end up hating myself.

30:54I'll g- I gotta do things I love. I gotta figure out ways to use love and enjoyment and artistry to push myself forward instead of this goal. Instead of being goal-oriented, let me doing, being enjoyment o- enjoyment focused." And that's how I go far. And that's where the switch of my… That's really a turn of my, my life, you know? And then, and my life since I have became this person who… I'm a author, you know, I wrote two books. I become a speaker.

31:23I become one of the most celebrated speakers, you know, um, like really, you know, in, in, in, in, in the world. You know, I, I do speaking. Now for, for someone like me, this, this Asian immigrant who came to America without speaking word of English, I found my true love. I found my true, you know, mission. I found my relationship with the world, is just writing my ideas and speaking to the world. And, so… And that's really my, my… That's really my story of dealing with ADHD Yeah, I mean, and it… I, uh, I also went into college go- with a computer science degree and learned that that was not for No, there we go.

32:02yeah. Uh, even though I'm, I, I still like imagine like, "Ooh, it'd be fun to do stuff with computer science again," but I'm like, mm, but it's just, it does not click way I, I wish it would. Uh, but It's not for us. It's just not for us yeah. Yeah, and that's fine 'cause I have like… It's, uh, I mean, this goes back to what we were talking about right at the beginning of like hard versus easy kind of things, where like I'm like, "Yeah, that's really hard for me," and therefore I kind of like value it more in a weird way.

32:36Whereas like I'm really good at writing and I go, "Well, that's just something I'm good at. That's not, that's not valuable 'cause I'm good at it. It just comes e- it comes too easy." And it's this like weird like, oh yeah, value the hard stuff for some reason way more even though that doesn't really make sense It does. That, that, that, what you're saying is really important. And, it-- the thing is in, in life, we automatically equate hard result and hard achievement with hard feelings.

33:06Somehow you don't feel hard, somehow you don't hate myself, uh, your- yourself, somehow you don't hate the work and tolerate for a long ti- a long time to achieve that goal, you think that's not right, right? But the thing is, the real hard, like real achievement is based on how much you can sustain, how much you love, how much it can push us forward. You know, how much instead of focusing on pushing the rock, you start making art and just expanding that pie.

33:33So, if you can achieve that mindset, you know, whatever you're doing that, you know, the listener is doing right now, that, you know, think about your life, right? If you can-- everything you're feeling hard, d- don't do it. You know? Switch to something you feel everything you can't wait to do it. There's a saying, and I mean, people, people say this, you know, if you're, you know, you're, uh, if you love your work, you're not working, and that's true.

33:57You know, that's true. Don't work. Love. You know, have a, have a life where every day you are excited to get up and, and do, you know, with the task, not with the result, but with the task, and then your life will be much better Yeah, I know. I see so many people being like, "Oh yeah, don't do certain things to, you know, like mixing like your work with the things you love the most 'cause then you're gonna end up hating that thing." But I'm like, usually when that happens, they're doing, you know, like I see like artists that like are like trying to becoming professional artists and they hate working with other people and doing all the commissions, and I'm like, "Yeah, but you're not doing the thing you love.

34:34You're doing something next to what you love, and that's probably gonna make it even worse." Yeah. There is the, about 25 years ago, there's a book came out. I, I really enjoyed that. That, that book taught me a great concept. It's called The E-Myth Revisited, right? This old book. It talks about these, um, you know, there are, there are a lot of people who are good at what they're doing. They think they wanna start their own business so they can do that thing that they love to do.

35:01What end up happening is they start doing the things they hate. So, you know, as they start running a… If you don't like to run a business, right? You're like, "I'm gonna be my own boss so I can do this task," whatever that is. "I'll be a chef," right? For example, " I like cooking. I'm gonna do my, I'm gonna be my, I'm gonna be entrep- I, I, I mean, I'm gonna start my own restaurant." The thing is, when you start a restaurant, you're not cooking.

35:22You're, you're spending most of your time to prepping and running the whole thing and hiring and, and maintaining customers. You're not cooking. If you like to cook, you should work at a restaurant or, or, or find the best restaurant you can work at and then be your best self to cook, right? That should be your, your goal. So find that thing you love and don't, don't think, uh, stop being too results-oriented. Focus on what you love to do, the task.

35:48And I, yeah, I think think focusing on the task you love to do rather than the concept of what you love to do is really important That's what trip us up, you know, all the time is because we just so want the result Yeah. 'Cause I, I mean, I, like one of the things for my writing, I'm like, I love just writing, but making a book is a different proposition. Like, that's like a, oh, I have to… That's organizing and outlining and making this all. And maybe at some point that'll be something I do, but it's a different task than just straight writing Yeah, a-absolutely.

36:19And that's why you want to sometimes- you want to outsource the thing that you feel really, really hard to someone else. You know, m- you, you find a publisher, right, who help you with all the tangential stuff with writing, or you find an editor that can be your companion, right? That, that'd be like, okay, that person can help you to organize the, those chapters so you can focus on storytelling. So if, you know, and that, that's the, you know, that's the thing.

36:43That's f- just find that thing that you're, you, you love to do Yeah. Well, we're kinda coming up on time here, so I was wondering if you had any final thoughts you wanted to leave the audience with Um, okay. We're listening to this podcast because we, most of us have ADHD. I'm assuming you're, you're listening to this, you have ADHD, right? For people like us, and there's always this feeling that we're falling short of our potential. You know, we're, we're not realizing our, our potential.

37:17And a lot of pe- like, a lot of us have this talent, you know? And then, and in fact, sometimes people comment on us, right? Say, "Hey, you're very talented." But somehow ADHD people, a lot of times we feel we can't get it together. We just can't get it together. Somehow we're just falling short. Um, just, you know, stop thinking about those things as your flaws. I mean, even they, they, they're not, they're not flaws, they're just who you are. And they become, they can become your treasures if you, one, embrace them.

37:50Two, try to build systems that can make the things you hate, make the things that are, that are, that are distracting you, take them away, right? Find systems and either outsource or try to find ways to, to, to take them away. So foc- then you focus on who you are and what you love to do. If you can do that, and there are a lot of different ways, you know, I, I, you know, I mean, I wrote a book about this. Then what end up happening is those systems become your treasure.

38:19Your flaws become your treasure. When you become your best self, that feeling is, is, is, is, is the best ever because you can truly, you know, fulfill your potential. In fact, stop wor- worrying about potential. You start creating. You start creating the world, and then you stop worrying about your own potential. You start creating a world where you benefit other people. So don't, don't think that you're not good enough. Don't think that you're just destined to lose or trying to hit, keep hitting, you know, hitting your head against a wall, right?

38:50Use yourself. Use whoever you are, whether you th- you know, you think those are flaws, use them. Build system around them, and be… That's how you become your best self. So, uh, don't give up, you know. And, and, and, and, and you, you're, you really can, you really have the ability to change the world, and that's what I wanna say. Awesome. That's fantastic advice. And, if people wanted to find more out about you or your books, uh, where should they go?

39:16Yeah. So, you can, uh, I, I write a Substack. It's called, uh, Easy Ambition. And, uh, so, uh, I, I turn, uh, my goal is to turn all my ambition into play, you know, into this pursuit of ambition to play. So go to my s- you can search my Substack, um, and, and, and subscribe to my newsletter. And if, if, if you buy, if you, uh, buy my book, uh, my book comes out, you know, in, on, on, on International ADHD Day, so on, on, on, on, on July 13th. And, and, uh, so if you, if for the first, uh, you know, amount of 10,000 people who buy my book, I build a wall.

39:53It's called a Easy Wall. You know, your name is be on the wall forever, so you'll be my friend. So, uh, yeah, that's, uh, that's where you can find me. Awesome. Well, thank you for so much for coming on the show. I had great time in this conversation, and I'm sure a lot of people will get a lot out of it Thank you for having me. I had a great time too Thanks to Jah for coming on the show, and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end.

40:17Before you go though, let's do a quick rundown of today's top tips. One, stop declaring war on your own brain by trying to grind through tasks using sheer willpower. Willpower is a finite biological resource that inevout- that inevitably runs out, and relying on it, and relying on it just triggers a cycle of broken resolutions and self-blame. Instead, shift your strategy to working with your human nature by building environment-based systems that remove structural friction from the start.

40:49Two, if your daily routine constantly feels like Sisyphus endlessly pushing a heavy boulder up a mountain, you are fighting a psychological gravity. Instead of forcing yourself through tasks with external pressure, anchor the process in intrinsic enjoyment so the activity becomes your default state. When you flip the physics this way, the boulder starts rolling downhill, meaning that it actually takes more active energy to stop your momentum than to keep going.

41:16Three, masking and overanalyzing how others perceive you creates an intense cognitive tension that completely paralyzes the ADHD brain. Break out of this by adopting the artist mindset, reframing stressful interactions or projects not as rigid transactions where you need approval, but as unpredictable opportunities to express your authentic presence. Focusing on the full creative expression in the moment completely bypasses the perfectionism trap and lowers social anxiety.

41:48All right, that's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over at hackingyouradhd.com/contact. If you'd like links or to read this episode's transcript, you can go to the show notes page at hackingyouradhd.com/303. And if you'd like even more Hacking Your ADHD, be sure to sign up for my newsletter, Any and All Distractions, which comes out every other week. In it, I give out my best distractions of the week, be they what I'm reading, what I'm playing, or what I'm watching.

42:17I also try to give out a few bits of actionable advice in each newsletter, although your mileage is gonna vary there. If that sounds like something you're interested in, head on over to hackingyouradhd.com/newsletter to sign up. I also wanna make sure you know about our Patreon, which you can easily find at hackingyouradhd.com/patreon. It's a pay what you want model, meaning that all levels of the Patreon receive the same stuff. You can pay $0 or $2 or $10, and it all comes out the same.

42:42And you can also check out the Hacking Your ADHD Discord, which you can get access to at hackingyouradhd.com/discord. Also, don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel, which you can find at youtube.com/@hackingyouradhd. And finally, if you'd like another way to support the show, the best way to do so is to tell someone about the show, especially if you think a particular episode would resonate with them. Just click the share button on your podcast player.

43:07And now, for your moment of dad. You know, I don't have a problem with AI. It's really the other vowels that bother me