Focus: The ADHD guide to productivity *that actually works* With James and Sam Brown

0:02Welcome to Hacking Your ADHD. I'm your host, William Curb, and I have ADHD. On this podcast, I dig into the tools, tactics, and best practices to help you work with your ADHD brain. Hey, team, this week I'm talking with James and Sam Brown, co-authors of Focus: The ADHD Guide to Productivity That Actually Works. James is a science communicator with a PhD in biomedical science and 20-plus years in academia and chair of the adult ADHD charity, ADHD Adult UK.

0:34Sam, also known as Miss ADHD Online, is an executive administrator with ADHD-informed PA expertise, an ADHD coach, director and secretary of JBHD Ltd, and a trustee of ADHD Adult UK. Together, with Alex Connor, they co-host the ADHD Adults Podcast. As both of them were diagnosed as adults, they use their lived but evidence-based experience with late diagnosis to help others navigate their own ADHD and autism. In this episode, we spend some time talking about their book and the very ADHD process in which it was written.

1:09But we also cover the gamut of boundaries, both with ourselves and others, the need to keep doing, and how hard it can be to give ourselves credit or accept it from others. This is a deep episode where the themes of self-acceptance and how that swirls through burnout play a big role. And of course, we also discuss all the usual ADHD shenanigans and how some days the ADHD just wins. If you'd like to follow along with our show notes page, you can find that at HackingYourADHD.com/309.

1:39All right, keep on listening to find out how we can start hitting on some of that productivity that actually works All right. Well, it's a pleasure to be talking with both of you. Can you tell me a little bit about, this book that you guys just wrote? Yeah, it's always awkward when there's both of us 'cause I, I look at Sam and she looks at me and, and we think who goes first? so the book's called "Focus: The ADHD Guide to Productivity and Getting Stuff Done." We wanted it to be getting shit done, but you can't have everything, can you?

2:13and it's, it's a-- I think it's slightly unique probably in that there's lots of productivity books out there, but this is specifically written for people who are ADHD and AuDHD, because most of the productivity kind of advice that you'll see on websites out there just it isn't written for people with ADHD. It's written for people with good time management skills and good executive function and relatively stable emotions. So we were given the opportunity to write it 'cause I've been doing some, some workshops on it and, it feels like it took a million years to write, and it also feels like it was released a million years ago because I f- I forget it's that out there, that we've done it definitely.

2:59We were just saying that, that it was so stressful. Well, not at first because I kept thinking I've got loads of time to do it, and then I'd booked three separate weeks off to get it done and did nothing for like the first two weeks and then just worked constantly for the last week, and it was so stressful and I just couldn't wait to get it done. And then as soon as it was done, it was just forgotten. And people now say: "What about your book?" And I forget that we've even done that.

3:25It's just something I've done, just onto the next thing without even taking a second to recognize that we've even done anything. Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is like such a good topic because it is so easy for us to like hit a goal and then just like, "Okay, what's the next, next thing?" And just not even acknowledge that, "Oh yeah, that's a really great thing that we did. That's fun." Yeah, or like that was really difficult and, and we did it.

3:53I didn't think that we ever would. Or James was re- we would sit down because James can, is so good at writing and super productive, and we would sit down next to each other, and he's just typing away like this. And I just, I have to spend so long… So I'm autistic as well as ADHD. I have to spend so long preparing and over-preparing, and then it's not right, so I have to scrap it all, and then my brain won't let me look at any of the documents I've done so far, and I have to start again.

4:21And I just keep going through this cycle, and it just stops me from getting started. And once I get started, I'm great, I can go. Whereas James can just sit and do it. He's like a robot or something. to be fair, to be fair though, Sam, you get the worst part of the deal 'cause I'm very much the classical first 80% of a, of a task. I kind of, uh, just, just vomit words out onto a page so I can write 60,000 words in a couple of weeks. It's not all good.

4:48But then finishing it off and editing it and checking whether it needs bits adding, my brain just says, "Nope, can't do it." So this book was written before it was written as far as my brain was concerned. As soon as it got to the things that needed to be changed, my brain just said, "Nope, can't do it," and I had to just step back and it re- it reminds me a lot, the whole idea of you reach a goal or you reach a target and you move on. It's very much why we talk about having a done list as well as a to-do list because we always have to-do lists, we've always got these things that we need to do, but very of- it's very rare that we often look at the end of a week, for example, and think, "What did I achieve this week? Well, actually I did all these things." because we're just so focused on the next thing that we've got to do and getting over often the stress of the last thing that we did And because f- definitely for me, everything's last minute, I don't have time to reflect.

5:38It's just always, what's the next thing? Oh my God, now, now I've got to do this. I thought I'd got that out the way, but now there's this other thing. There's always something Yeah, it is amazing how playing firefighter is just like, "Oh yeah, it's, yeah, that's taken care of. It is now, this is the new fire, and the old fire doesn't matter anymore." And, have, uh, been feeling that a lot too recently with just like being like, "Oh yeah, I've done all these things, but what's the next thing I'm doing?"

6:06And that, I don't know about you, but I just get so itchy inside if there isn't… 'Cause I always think while I'm really stressed and doing a big thing, I can't wait until this over, this is over, 'cause then I can just relax for a bit. But I can't ever do that because my brain's always looking for a next thing, and if there isn't one, I will find one, and usually more than one, multiples. Yeah. I have a, note I've been keeping on my phone recently, and it is… I'm not exactly happy with myself with how many projects I've added to it that I know I'm just… I'm like, "I want to do all of these," and there's just no way I could do all of them at the same time.

6:47But my brain is like, "But yeah, but if you drop, try and drop any of them, you're not gonna do that one ever." And I'm like, "Hmm, that is not, this is not helpful for me, brain. I'm going into summer. I'm gonna be busy with a bunch of other stuff. I can't do all of these things, and I have to be willing to, like, drop some of Do you know, that's so important though, that you recognize that 'cause that's something I'm not very good at recognizing.

7:11I think it took me to… So I have long COVID, and I had to have a long period off work, and now have mobility issues and issues with fatigue, and it took that to happen for me to think, well, actually, and James constantly saying to me, "You, you will never do any- everything on that done list." And I was like: but I have to, I have to. And the anxiety because I wanted to and needed to do everything on the done list, and then recognizing that I can't is, I don't know, it gives you a bit of… Helps you relax a little bit Well, it's, it- it's actually a really important productivity tip, and that is the things you say no to are just as important as the things you say yes to in terms of that decision.

7:53Because so many of us are, are givers and people pleasers, and because we're driven by interest and novelty and, and new projects, having the ability to have any boundaries, whether it's with yourself, whether it's, whether it's with other people, actually protects you to do the things that kind of align with your values, the things that you do find interesting. And it's really difficult to have barriers with other people, but I, I actually think it's harder to have them with ourselves.

8:19Kind of saying, saying to oneself, "Yes, okay, I, I want to develop a new screening tool for all ADHD and I've made the first few steps, but I, I don't have the time to adequately test this," is really important because otherwise it sits there as this thing, "No, you've got to do that, you've got to do that." And it's sometimes healthier to accept it may be a passion project now, but ask yourself, is it, is it going to be in three months' time when you're stressed with everything else?

8:45Yeah. And it's-- I remember reading a story somewhere about, uh, some businessman that had been, like, talking to one of his subordinates and, like, was, like, going through their goals with them, and they're like, "Okay, so these are my, like, top three goals, and then these are, like, my, you know, other ones." And the guy was just like, "You really need to make all those other goals your not… Put that onto your not-to-do list, because any time that you're putting towards that, you're taking away from doing your actual top goals."

9:16yeah. It's an approach I've, I've, I've heard in coaching but not used, and that's the, the do not do list. but it, but it-- you're right, it can help when it comes to giving yourself permission to not try and do everything, because if that's how your brain works and you want to jump from project to project. When I was a scientist years ago, it's the reason I never became very good, because I would jump from cancer research to diabetes to aging to exercise to polycis- polycystic ovarian syndrome to, to other research areas, 'cause I'd just get bored and wanna do something else.

9:46And I think that that ability to say, "Actually, you know what? I'm not gonna do those things," I think it's quite rare. I'm not sure I can do it unless it's kind of admin, 'cause obviously that's always on the, the do not do list. I don't have a do not l- do list, but I have master tasks lists. So I have a master task list for work, and I also have a master side quest list. But I choose three things at a time 'cause I love the number three. And then periodically I go through my master task list, and I'll see all of these tasks that I'd put on there that are just not important to me anymore.

10:18And because I'm only taking three at a time and I don't move another three, and then when I've done them, I move them, move them to my done list. I'm very disciplined like that. But then I'll see all these things that I'd put on there, God knows how long ago, and think, "Well, they don't matter to me now," so I can just delete them. That feels really good. So it's a similar thing, I guess. Yeah, the, the only times that I've used the not-to-do list have been like doing like yearly planning kind of stuff, and I'm like, "Okay, this year I'm not gonna sign up for any new learning courses," because I love doing that and it seems so productive.

10:50And I, like at the end of the year, I'm like, "I didn't," and you know, that was wor- a worthwhile thing for me to have not done. Like to, it saved me so much, like, 'cause I wasn't like researching them, I wasn't doing, so I'm like, that's like… And it, it is, it has like lasted and like I don't sign up for them as often now because I like kinda learned that skill by just being like, "Oh yep, that's not, not something I'm doing right It's so difficult though, 'cause anything new and shiny that I see, I just want to do everything.

11:20It's really difficult to control that impulse, isn't it? Oh, so d- hard I, it is. I, it is, and I've struggled in the past. the amount of short kind of CPD courses on online websites that I've done because they're only, 20 quid and now I can do conflict resolution, and now I've kind of got all these skills I'm never gonna use. The one thing that's really changed for me in the last year is having gone through burnout probably for the third time and realizing that actually I have to do less, less of everything.

11:53I have to do everything within my capacity because in the past, the, do having the charity and the podcast and being employed and coaching and helping other people, and then it was like having three full-time jobs at the same time and loving it all, but obviously hurtling towards burnout. But at the same time, yeah, doing weird little educational courses to learn more about stuff, 'cause obviously I had all the time in the world to, to spend an extra 40 hours learning about SEO for websites or stuff like that.

12:25But it's, it is, I think it's easier when you've been through burnout to say no, I think. It's still, it's still not that easy, but when you've been through, through burnout, I think it really teaches you a lot about capacity. Definitely Yeah, so yeah, when you hit kind of that wall where it's just like, oh… 'Cause when you're in the thick of it, it feels like you can't drop anything, and it's so important at the time, and it's like I, if I something up, that's saying something about who I am.

12:57But when you hit these like, real life issues with burnout or, you know, just, you know, anything like in that arena, it kind of refocuses you. You're like, "Wow, not all the bad things that were in my mind happened." Like I, you know, I, was, uh, sick recently and like emailed my producer. I'm like, "Oh, I'm not gonna be able to get these episodes up. Can we like reschedule how we're doing everything?" He's like, "Yeah, not a problem." I'm like, "This was really stressful for me.

13:23Why was this so hard for me to like just be like, 'Oh yeah, I can just not put out the same…' Like I could do all these, have all these options to do less, and I should take advantage of that more when I need it." So true. I think we put ourselves under so much pressure. I was the same with… I love work. I love working. James has to try and stop me from working at night just to spend some time with him, which makes me feel awful. But I just love it, and I was burning myself out and had long COVID as well, and ended up being off work for seven months and realized that things just keep going.

13:57Other people pick up the work. It, it, it just happens somehow, and maybe I'm not as essential as I think I am, Maybe I don't have to do everything myself. Maybe I can accept some help, and that's a big thing for me, actually, accepting help. I don't know about you, but that's really difficult for me to do. Unless I'm paying somebody, then I can. Even when I'm paying someone, it's still like, I'm like, "Mm, I could Yeah. Yeah I asked this in a, I did a w-- an online workshop on productivity the other day, and I asked this question about asking for help because there's a-- Adam Grant's got this, did some research on the workplace, and there's three types of workers: givers, takers, and, and matchers.

14:38And, givers kind of give of their time, do extra work, help people out, and takers generally just look after themselves, and matchers do a bit of both. And people with ADHD tend to be givers, and the way to support a giver and make them more productive and successful is to protect them from burnout and to empower them to ask questions, including for help. And when I asked everybody in this kind of online workshop, "How comfortable are you asking for help?"

15:04It was just a stream of "Nope," "Nope," "No thanks," "Hell no," "Not gonna ask for help," "Can't do it," because it, it's so fueled by emotions. And that's one of the things, again, I think the book focuses on that, that's different to other books, is that productivity advice often fails ADHD brains 'cause it ignores emotion, and that fear of rejection or criticism or someone thinking worse of you because you're asking for help with something, especially if it's a project that's started and you're say a couple of weeks in and you think, "I should know this.

15:35Shit, I've gotta go back and ask that person. Who was, who was I meant to email?" That is terrifying for most of us. But if you've got a culture where you just empower people to-- there's no such thing as a stupid question, it's okay to ask anything, it takes a little tiny bit of that pressure off That is the difficult one because I, I do have communication issues sometimes, and I don't always understand what I'm being asked, but I can get myself… It could build it up so much just to say to somebody, "What, what did you mean by that?

16:06What exactly do you want me to do? 'Cause I'm not sure." And I'll be googling and asking other people, and they're saying, "Why don't you just ask the person directly?" But that just feels like the biggest step ever because I feel like I'm saying I'm rubbish at communicating and like my j- but that's a big part of my job, so I know I should be good at this. It's really difficult for me. Yeah. And I, it's, it feels like it's just like there's so much buildup from childhood and life where we're like with ADHD, with autism, where we're told, not told, we have observed that we are treated differently when we act within the range of our condition.

16:50And it makes us really not want to show people that we're… Like, this is like a different form of masking where it's we're not trying to change our personality. We're trying to be like, "We are the neurotypical that does not need help," because we already know all these things. Even though neurotypical people always need help with things all the time anyways, 'cause everyone needs help with things. But That's so true. And I've seen people like come into the office and ask for what basically are adjustments, and they're neurotypical people, and the other person's just like: "Yeah, sure, if that's what you need, I'll do it." And I'm like: "Oh my God, you can just do that and nobody thinks any different of you?"

17:29We can build these things up in our heads so much sometimes, and it is, you're right, it's that not wanting to stand out, not wanting to people, people to know that you're different and, and especially if there's a group of people and everybody else is nodding and they all understand, and so you, you just want to nod and then go away and pretend that you understand and try and find out how to do this. Yeah, it's difficult. And my brain always thinks, no matter what, we'll just sort it out later.

17:58Just agree, and we'll just sort it all out later. Don't double-check Yeah. Al- later. although I am sticking with that nodding thing. I've definitely been in that situation where I'm like, "I don't get this," and I, I, I have to ask. And I ask, and then everyone's like, "Yeah, I don't get this either." And I'm like, "Oh my God, thank God." Yeah, I love it when there's someone in the room that'll do that for me. And, uh, and, and you're right, it's often like the entire meeting that all suddenly you can almost feel the relief when people go, "God, I had no idea what that three-letter acronym was that we're now meant to be hitting as a, as a, as a, as a target."

18:30And I think that, that masking, s- masking isn't free, it costs, Thinking is free. The constant having to monitor our behavior, to mask our symptoms is one thing, but that masking in terms of performance is so damaging because the, the, the analogy of the, the duck or the swan on the water, it looks serene, but the legs are paddling. Well, that might be a neurotypical person. For a neurodivergent, it's being powered by a, a jet stream of diarrhea that's pushing us forward.

19:00It's not even legs that are paddling. The reason it looks anything like serene is because we're working later hours, doing everything close to a deadline, really pushing ourselves so that we look like we're coping with everything, and everything's okay, when often, it isn't. And asking for a bit more time or a bit of help, or even just a bit of body doubling just feels impossible because you don't want to mark yourself out as being different to your colleagues.

19:27like with like the sense of feeling like lesser, where you're like, "Oh, I am, I can't perform how I should be able to." And this is exactly what you're talking about too, is we're do- making these comparisons, but they're not like comparisons 'cause we can't see what's actually going on with the other I was about to say, I think those assumptions are often not just wrong, but certainly in my experience, and this is an- anecdotal, we often judge ourselves a- against other people specifically on the things that we can't do, not the things that we can do.

20:01So we'll judge ourselves on someone's timekeeping. We'll judge ourselves on someone's communication. We'll judge ourselves on how quickly someone responds to an email, and therefore we're setting ourselves… It's like comparing, it's like saying, "I do a bit of running. I'm gonna judge myself against Usain Bolt." You're, you're going to come out second in that, in that internal conversation. But if you're an accountant, you don't say, "Well, I judge my accountancy skills against Usain Bolt." You don't.

20:26You'd pick a, a better accountant and say, "I wish I could do things like them." We, we are so hung up often because of the internalized stigma that we've got about ourselves because of the things we've experienced, the things we've heard, the things we've kind of got wrong or struggled with, that we almost automatically use the wrong benchmark and, and judge ourselves against the things that we know we can't do rather than the things that we actually do quite well.

20:54Yeah. and this also echoes very well our, the start of our conversation talking about your different writing styles, in which like, oh yeah, he writes all these words and yes, but she finishes the thing. It was like, yeah, we're comparing different things and being like, oh yeah, these are what… And this is what's so important with like coaching and stuff and like looking for the strength-based approach, but like what am I good at versus, not versus what, what am I struggling with compared to the person that's, struggles with stuff that I'm good at?

21:21I think for, for me, I learned that the, all of the kind of, "Oh my God" moments or the, "Oh, that's good" moments came from stuff that Sam contributed to the book. So when she would say, "I think we need to have a section or a chapter on ADHD," for example, or, "I think we need to specifically talk about burnout," or, "We need to make sure that it's written…" Even the way, the, the way in which it's written, certain boxed out content, I just think I would never think of that.

21:50I would just think as someone that's written kind of academically for years, just get all the text down, and I'm sure people will read it and understand all of the advice. But all of the moments in the writing where I was impressed, none of them were anything that I did. It was all stuff that Sam would suggest or come up with that I'd think, "God, yeah, I just wouldn't think of that." And that's, I think it's a big thing when it comes to neurodivergence 'cause we are diverse and we've all got different skills and traits and impairments and challenges.

22:18But when you can work with someone and, and I'll be honest, we don't work well together on anything. You know, if we're, if we're doing the gardening for God's sake, we will be screaming at each other because we both have our own… I do it the half-arsed way, and Sam does it the 100% perfectionist way. So a lot of the work was kind of I'll do my bits and electronically hurl them at you, and then you deal with it. But if you can find someone whose skill set matches yours, a bit like in the first book I wrote w- with Alex, then it's, it's much, much easier than either doing it yourself or if you've both got the same skill set and you're missing that, that, that different way of thinking that Sam kind of, kind of brought to the Yeah, I have very specific ways of doing things.

23:01But I think a lot of us are like this, that I just can't see the value in anything that I do, but I can see the value in everything that everybody else does. And even when James is saying that or people will point out things that I've done well, my brain is immediately going, "Yeah, I'm not, I'm not gonna take that on board. I refuse to." And it's, it's almost like a fear that I have, I think of, I don't know why. Actually, it's something that I've explored in therapy and coaching a lot because I feel like it would stop me from trying, which it absolutely wouldn't.

23:34I know that that's not true, but it's just something in my brain that just won't accept it, and I, I wonder how many of us are like that. Yeah. I think that fear of complacency is very valid. Like, a lot of, uh, not the actual that we'd be complacent, but the fear that we would be complacent. Like, that is something I s- hear so many people say where it's just like, "Yeah, if I settle for this, then I'm never going to push myself." And we're like, "Has that been true in the past?"

24:03And it's like, "Well, on things I don't wanna do." And it's like, "Yeah, 'cause you don't wanna do them, but things you like, you l- always are pushing yourself." There's a, there's a phrase as well that doesn't get spoken about enough, when we talk about ADHD, and that's praise dysphoria. we all talk about projection sensitive dysphoria, and praise dysphoria is, is very common. And I wouldn't say it's universal, but so many of us struggle with any form of praise.

24:25Like, "That's really well done. You've done a great job. I love that thing that you do." And, it's difficult to even often let those compliments exist without kind of challenging them. Where I know Sam in the past has had to work on this 'cause people would pay her a compliment and she would instantly say, "Well, why would you think that? That's not true." And, and realizing that most people don't give you praise for things unless they genuinely mean it.

24:50But for most of us, it's kind of-- Well, for me, it's kind of look at my shoes and nod and that's the best I can do with any praise for anything I've done because I just… Oh, it's awful being told something you've done is good. But whether that's a protective mechanism, because assuming that it's bad means that whatever anyone says can't be worse than what you assume internally, kind of as a protective psychological barrier does help pr- I suppose, prevent that future criticism in a way.

25:17Yeah, I used to flat out accuse people of lying if they paid me a compliment. And it wasn't until I met James that he said, "This is, this is rude. You know, they, they wouldn't say it if they didn't mean it." But I literally just couldn't… I was just thinking, "Well, why would they say that?" And yeah, if I receive any positive feedback, I really struggle with it. I'm better with negative feedback because I know what to do. I can try and sort it out.

25:42Positive feedback, my brain just goes, "I don't know what to-- I don't know how to use that. Let's just disregard I've, I, I, I've just learned, like, I just say thank you and move the conversation along as fast as I because I'm like, I can't… When, especially when it's something for many of us with ADHD, the things that we get praised on are things that we're really good at, and so we kind of find easy. Yeah And then we're like, "Yeah, that was not praiseworthy.

26:09That was super easy." But not, again, doing the comparison where we're like, "Yeah, this is easy for me, so this is easy for everyone." That's so true. Has no value for me because it didn't, it didn't cause me like to stay awake at night or to worry unnecessarily. And yet the things that I do that I just feel like they're the ones that are never good enough. I feel like I put in so much effort, but it's never quite good enough th-- yeah, I think that, is very true of me.

26:37Pretty much everything that I do, w-whether it's, you know, I used to do, like, a lot of television work when I was a scientist and going on stage and doing talks. It's, it's partly because I'm anhedonic, so I don't feel positive emotions, so I don't feel kind of joy or excitement. Life's a blast. it-- but partly because it, it's not that difficult. It's never really felt impressive to do a lot of the stuff that I've done. a lot of people, I can-- and I can remember with Alex, with our first book, was understandably so happy and so proud when that book came out, and for me it was, as we said earlier, it was on the day of release, well, I don't know.

27:15What, what do you want me to feel? I, I don't… praise for it d- was just meaningless because it, it just felt like, well, I've, I've just written some words or co-written some words. And I think that's something that if we could kind of crack, being able to feel genuinely satisfied or happy with what we've done, w-without getting to the point of, kind of, I suppose psychological masturbation about how good we are, then it would be so much better for our mental health and our self-esteem to be able to kind of say out loud, "Yeah, I'm really good at that," or, "Yeah, I'm really proud that I did that thing."

27:52But it often feels there's this invisible barrier between, me certainly and those words. Mm-hmm. I'm currently working on my script for my 300th episode, and it's like, that's a lot of episodes. But also, it totally feels like, well yeah, of course I did 300. You just, it's like taking 300 steps. I like, I did this step and this step and this step and this step, and then I got there, and it's both impressive and then just doesn't feel like anything.

28:27Mm. But it, it is impressive yeah, it is. we've done, we've done 200. Well, we've done 201, and one hasn't been released, and because o-of life events, we're gonna take… Well, because of me, we're taking, we're taking a pause. And I, to be honest, I thought 200 was impressive. I thought how the hell we'd got to 200 over the, over the case of the around four years was, was ridiculous. But 300, if I had a hat on, I'd take it off to you, mate. That is, super impressive anything that any of us can do for a sustained amount of time is impressive Mm-hmm.

29:03Yeah. I'm like, if I had been talking to someone else, I'd be like, "Yeah, 200 is a fantastic number. That's awesome." And then, but yeah. Oh, but for me, this is-- The, I love this idea that we often think we're special in the worst way possible Uh, it's like, yeah, I'm special in that this doesn't matter for me. That's just, uh… And I'm just like, "Oh, God, this is…" And I, I do like thinking in that, uh, paradigm because it does help me go, "Oh yeah, I-- that's not healthy way to think," to be like, "Oh yeah, I'm special because this doesn't count for me." I'm like, "Oh yeah, that's not… both not true and, like, not kind to myself Yeah Can, can I ask you a question?

29:52did So when you s- when you started out, did you have any expectations of getting anywhere near 300 episodes? Was there a, was there a plan? Was there kind of a, "I'm gonna do it for X amount of time," or was it just completely open-ended? Much more open-ended. it was… I had done a previous podcast on, Ultimate Frisbee, and I think I cut that off after 11 episodes. and so I was like, "I'll at least do that many." I was like, "Let's do at least, like, try to at least do, like, 30 or something," you know?

30:25Like, really just… also it's one of those aspects of ADHD where when I think about starting a new project, I don't think about it in terms of, like, how long it is going to be. I just think about it in terms of infinity. Like, "Oh, I'm gonna start this new habit and it's gonna go on forever." Yes, that's so true. I've been wanting to start my own podcast for over two years now and haven't been able to do it, so I think it's really impressive. Obviously, I'm on Alex and James's, but I just shoehorned myself into that and I don't do-- Like James does all the producing, all the social media, everything for it.

31:00I just turn up when I do turn up. But actually starting something is such a big thing for me, especially something like that where you're putting yourself out there Yeah, that's one of the, like… I, I mean, I honestly didn't really expect to be very successful at it, 'cause I know podcasting is very hard to get into. And so I was like, "Oh yeah, this is…" But at the same time, it's, it was, like, built up over time to get where I'm at. And so it was very much, "Oh yeah, this is one step after another.

31:32Of course you're here now because that makes sense." But it doesn't if I actually, like, stop and go, "Oh wait, yeah, no, most people don't make all those steps," That's so true. And so many people will, will want to start a podcast and be where you're at immediately, and then will give up because they get frustrated that immediately they're not really, really popular and successful. But it does take time. It takes so long for-- like yours and Alex's podcast for quite a while, you joked that you had 12 listeners.

32:06Well, yeah, but to be fair, that was a different time, and it did take off relatively quickly because there were about two ADHD podcasts in the UK at the time, two or three. and because we literally just swear and, and attack each other constantly because we're, we're really good mates, and a lot of people resonated with that. And I think e-everything's changed in, in podcasting for ADHD now with these really big kind of celebrity podcast accounts where they've got huge production budgets and they can, they can, they have studios and, and, and bring guests in, and that's changed it for all of us.

32:43And I, I think if we were starting again now, I probably wouldn't, to be honest. I'd probably look at that and think, "Well, how do you fit in?" If it's for fun, which actually it was when we started, it was just about doing it because we enjoyed it, then maybe. But I don't-- I think it's a very different kind of field now than it was when we started in, what was it? The end of 2021 or '22, something like that. It's massively different Yeah. Well, and yeah, talk about, uh, comparisons that don't make sense that we make.

33:12Like, I've done that too, where I'm just like, "Oh, look at that show and what they're doing and how they're promoting and all the guests that they get." And I'm like, "Yeah, but they… That person, you know, is like famous already." Like, that makes sense that they started at a different spot than where I started, and that they're doing things differently than I do because they want different things. Like, I- there's aspects of podcasting that I just don't want to deal with, so I'm like, "Oh yeah, I'm not gonna do that." You know?

33:37I'm-- So it's very interesting when we do those kind of comparisons, 'cause it is very easy to be like, "I'm only comparing that one part that I want." I think it's better to be authentic and be happy with what you're doing. I think that's one of the reasons that, you know, as the-- certainly the three of us, Sam, Alex, and I will never get invited on one of the big podcasts because, A, we rip the piss out of them on our podcast, like likely. Um, and, and, and, and B, I think you've-- we've, we've got lots of integrity.

34:10I think lots of people have got lots of integrity, but a lot of the clickbaity stuff that you hear on some podcasts or the stuff that isn't evidence-based kind of turns me off from listening to them. And it's great to share opinions and, and lived experiences, but you hear a lot of ADHD is from people who are sharing their lived experience, which is true to them, but it might not be true to everybody. And that's, that's kind of really important, I think, to us to try and make it as inclusive as possible whilst also being evidence-based.

34:38And it was the same with the book is it started off with doing lots of research and looking into, well, what, what is the evidence behind this? Because that, I think that changes the narrative with ADHD because y- there are so many different stories, so many similar stories, whether it's, whether it's productivity at work, whether it's relationships, whether it's finances, but they all have their own little routes to get in there. And I think trying to, trying to acknowledge that whilst also giving out good information is challenging at times.

35:12Absolutely. 'Cause it's just-- Yeah, it's if you met one person with ADHD, you've met one person with ADHD. And while there are some overlaps and similarities, it's just amazed with, like, the variance in neurodivergence. It's like, oh yeah, like, uh, we were just talking about with the getting places on time. There's people that are, struggle so much with time blindness, and then there's other people like, "Oh, I solve this with anxiety. It's not a good choice, but I do it."

35:43It's, it's so, it's so true, particularly that, that motivation thing. whatever I-- my, my kryptonite is emails, generally being contacted and I have to gamify answering emails. If I do 10 on my app, it gives me a little "Boom, well done. You've answered 10 emails." But when I was aca- an academic, I'd answer 150, 200 a day, but my motivation was fear because I was afraid that I would be seen as a bad academic. That I'm lazy, I'm, I'm too slow on things, and that's not healthy to use that as motivation for 15, 20 years in a career.

36:17And I think it's that different because some people are incredibly on top of, of that, relatively mundane part of task emails. For me, I'd, I just can't do it. And, and I think that accepting that is powerful. Not, not wanting to change it, still wanting to improve, but accepting that, okay, this is something I struggle with and I'm gonna try and find ways to improve it is, is really the ADHD experience. Because, you know this ADHD is consistent inconsistency.

36:52our performance is up one week, down the next week. We can be brilliant one day and, and shocking the next. But there will always be often themes which we'll have to, to, to find a way to get past or find tools or strategies to deal with. So a lot of it is accepting, right, I struggle with this. I need to make sure I've got something to help me with it, whether it's remembering appointments, whether it's, emails and communication. And the really cruel thing is you often have to have multiple systems because, once something stops being rewarding after a few months, that to-do app you've got and you just can't, you can't even press the button on your phone and you have to go back to pen and paper or a different app.

37:35It's so frustrating. I'm so sorry. I just was thinking then of different things that I do to get me to do things, and I thought, yeah, I set alarms to get me to take my medication, and then I remembered that my alarm went off at 4:00 PM, and I didn't take my medication. So thank you. I'm taking it now. Yeah. Well, and I think it is so important to do that acknowledgement of, like, when things are difficult. 'Cause yeah, email, I just have so much trouble do- keeping on top of that.

38:00And pretending that it's easy never helped me get more email done. But being like, "Oh, this is hard, and I need to put in actual strategies to make sure that I get to this," that's a lot more helpful in just being like, "Oh, yeah, this is just the reality. It doesn't matter if this is easy for someone else. This matters what I'm able to get myself to do." And that's brilliant, brilliant productivity advice because we, we don't just compare ourselves to kind of neurotypicals and other people.

38:32The whole, the whole system of work is wrong. w- having an hours-based working week. Why is it hours-based and not output-based? for, for example, having, having standards kind of put on us which don't take into account neurodivergence, which most employers, some are getting better, but most kind of expect you to basically be neuro- neurotypical. So accepting that there's stuff which you do need to find ways to help you with is, is kind of the first step in finding those ways to, to deal with something.

39:07And for me, like I say, something as simple as gamification or body doubling, like the simplest fr- or freest tools means I go from no emails a day to a paltry, I think I did 16 today, which was, I was hands in the air and celebrating for 16 emails. But it's only because every email I'll mark it on my phone, "Yep, that's one more," compare it to yesterday, et cetera, and that works for now the thing for now. Everything's for now, isn't it? And that's the exhausting thing, that it's at some point you have to then find a new system because nothing works forever with us, does it?

39:45No. And we, and I think that's one of the funny things with, too, with like the, our ADHD med. We're like, "Oh, yeah, I'm gonna pick this up forever, and I need to figure out the perfect system so that I can pick it up forever." It's like, it's not gonna last forever, so don't worry about it that much. It's am- it's amazing how we think we've cra- it's amazing how we think we've cracked it, though. the amount of times that I've said to Sam s- I'm just, I'm so sorry, Sam.

40:06That I've said, "Right, Google Tasks now. Everything, all the to-do stuff is in Google Tasks." And then three months later, "Actually, no, we're gonna use Todoist. Put everything in Todoist." And then a couple of months later, "Let's try Google Keep, actually. I think that works better." And we've just ended up with s- like six or seven different systems with various tasks, which I'm now miles out of date on 'cause I keep changing what I can engage with to tell me what I need to do on a day-to-day basis.

40:33So Yeah. I think it's funny for my podcast, all my episodes are put together on Notion, and I don't care that much for Notion that much anymore, but there's too many to move. I don't, I don't wanna do that part. So it's just like I'm stuck with this tool now. If you can use Notion, you are a wizard. That is dark magic, and I know so many people and I, and I, and I have to work with people as a consultant who use it, and I just, every time I open it, I just think, "What?" And, and can't, just can't navigate it and add stuff to it.

41:04I mean, hats off again how people use it, and I… It really doesn't work with my, with my brain, I suppose. It's a bit like if you've been using a Mac and you try and use a PC, all of a sudden everything just seems wrong and backwards. It's, but it's a great example of, same condition, two different brains, one tool, someone can use it, another one makes me wanna vomit into my eye sockets. Yeah. I've definitely picked up note apps where I'm like, people are like, "Yeah," they swear by it.

41:32I'm like, "What is wrong with this thing? I cannot Yeah. And yet I do things that I have to do things a very specific way and the w- I, I do things quite often a really laborious and long-winded way, and I know that using something like Notion would make it a lot quicker and I could automate a lot of stuff, but sometimes my brain just will not, will not engage at all and just says, "No, you've got to do it this really long-winded, long-winded and inefficient way because otherwise you're not gonna do it at all."

42:07Well, and sometimes I find that's just like my brain needing to like gear up to do the task. And so having a little bit of, "Oh, I'm doing s-…" This is a long-winded way to do it, but it does let me get started with a very simple thing and then build momentum into doing the actual task. so true. It, it almost gives me processing time whilst I'm gearing up to do it, because I'm going through the motions that I do every time. And I have had a system of doing things, my to-do lists and everything for years and years.

42:37And then when I was off, I completely forgot and went back to work and thought, "I don't know why I can't cope. I obviously just can't do this job anymore." And I'd forgotten that I had a system that worked for me for years, and then when I remembered and used it again, I could get back into it again. But yeah, that's another thing. Remembering the system that you had is a big thing for us. I can start new systems all the time, and then the next week I just, I just forget that they exist and might start a completely new system.

43:07And then quite often I'll start a new system, go to save it somewhere and go, "Oh, you've done this before, this exact same thing, and you're doing it again." It's just like, I really thought I had dementia at one point before I knew I had ADHD because it just, I just couldn't understand how my brain could just completely forget things like that. It's one of the key issues with ADHD for me, and particularly for productivity, is the reduced ability to start and maintain routines.

43:39And that's everything, whether it's your kind of morning brush your teeth, have a shower, get dressed routine, get stuff ready for work, or whether it's your work routine. If I start with, emails or task time. And I find that when I've got a routine and I have to track everything, so I have to have a little app. Have I had my protein shake? Yes. Have I taken my meds? Yes. Have I done this? When I'm doing that, I'm kind of on form, and I know the wheels have come off when I'm not even, like, recording anything I've done during a day.

44:09And all of a sudden I feel like, well, I've got no routine. I'm not taking medication. I'm not brushing my teeth. I'm not having a shower. I'm just basically getting up and then stumbling into a work meeting or doing some coaching. And I think that is kind of the, sometimes the hardest nut to crack is how do I not just build a routine, but remember it's there and have the right cues to, to remind me I need to do those things because that will change over time with object invisibility.

44:37It's, it's so difficult to crack that nut of, of kind of building and maintaining a, a healthy routine. Yeah, 'cause we wanna like kind of build this, inevitability into our systems where it's like, oh, this is, if I have the bag on the door handle, I have to pull the bag off to get the door open, so it's very hard for me to forget that kind of thing. But that setting that same kind of thing up for a more complex system where I'm like, "Oh, I'm remembering all these routines and all these other things,"

45:05that's, yeah, that's so much harder to do. And even we used to-- before we ran the ADHD charity that we do now, we used to run a, a homeless charity where we would go out on the streets and, feed people who were sleeping rough. And we would-- we didn't know back then that we had ADHD, and every week we would forget. So, so we'd have all the volunteers waiting, and we would spend all day making sandwiches, pack them all up, and then would just forget them almost every week.

45:30And then we'd both be going: "Well, I thought you had them." "No." 'Cause we'd both take cars packed full of stuff to give out every week. And so then we were like, "Right, we'll have a system then. We'll make the sandwiches, and we'll put the car keys on top of the bags of sandwiches 'cause then we won't forget them." But we still did. We just picked up the keys and just left the sand- So sometimes even things that you think are obvious, your brain just still doesn't wanna play.

45:55Oh. It's a… Yeah, it's amazing what How… Because you're like, "How could I just forget that what like…" You know, I've like left for appointments where I'm like, "Oh, I'm gonna go take this to this person," and then I'm like getting in my car and being like, "I don't have the thing. Oh my God, I'm glad I didn't start driving." Because I have before, and that's really bad when I'm like, "I, I'm gonna be super late because I'm almost here, but I did not bring your stuff."

46:22I was taking part in a study at work recently, and they w- I had to bring some eye drops for this second part of the study, and I got there. They were like: "Have you got the eye drops?" And I said, "Yes, I've definitely got them." Looking through my bag, and of course, objective visibility, could not see them anywhere. And I said, "I haven't. I'm gonna have to go back up to the office." And she even said, "Just check your bag thoroughly." And I went, "No, they're definitely not there."

46:44Went all the way back up to my office, looked everywhere, was retracing my steps, and of course, they were just in the bag, and I just had to go back down and say, "Yeah, you were right. I just didn't see them in the bag." And then that just makes me feel so stupid for not being able to see something that was clearly there, but your brain just doesn't see it. I did that, recently with my passport where it's like I needed it and I went to the spot where it was and then it wasn't there so then I like tore apart my office and I was like, "Ugh, I can't believe it wasn't in this thing." And I looked in the drawer and I'm like, there were some things just slightly on top of it and like had I, had I moved anything in the drawer I would've seen it immediately but I didn't.

47:27I just looked and I was like, "Oh, it's not there. I've done it to myself again. I've p- misplaced this." And I'm like, "Oh my God, how can I just Yeah, and the amount of time I waste just looking and re-looking for things and then sometimes buying the thing and then a-again, and then immediately finding it because of course that's the time when you find it, when you've bought a replacement. I just waste so much time. I l- I leave the house about five times in the morning and I'm medicated for ADHD, and I'm still continuously forgetting exactly the same things every day.

48:03I laughed at, passports. I'm gonna tell a qui- a quick story. This is a, this is ADHD for me in a nutshell, that we were going on holiday a few years ago, and I thought, "Oh God, my, my passport needs renewing." I just, I remembered it needs renewing, and it was about a week reminded you it needed renewing Yeah, and then that doubled down. So we thought, okay, we had like a week until we went, and the only way to get a passport quickly is if you drive to one of the six centers in the UK and spend about 250 quid, and they give it on the day.

48:32So I booked it and drove up to Liverpool, got there, and they said, "You renewed it last year." So I'd spent 250 pounds, driven to Liverpool, and walked into the office to be told, "No, no, you And they don't refund the money either. yeah, we're keeping the money 'cause that's all admin costs apparently." Because I'd just forgotten and ha- and hadn't checked, hadn't gone, "You know what? I'll just look at the passport to check when it's gone." I was so convinced that passport's out of date, I need a new one, that it just… What a complete That was all my fault 'cause I just looked at his last passport that I had a copy of, 'cause I keep things in files, and just hadn't added the new one.

49:12And of course, he didn't check, and so both of us ADHD'd it really Yeah, just this week I tried to refill my medication, and they were like, "It's too soon for a refill." And I'm like, "Oh, but I just ran out." And then I, like, this morning I was like, "Man, what happened?" And then I looked at my counter, and there's, like, the new bottle, and I'm like, "When did I do that?" How-- Like, I'm like, "How has this gone from my head so completely?" There's gotta be a better system for medication 'cause we, we… I don't know if you're the same as probably most of us, but I've got the, the, the box and it's got the containers for the days and, you know, two Monday, two for Tuesday, two for Wednesday.

49:50And I remember during my PIP application, which I was unsuccessful with, and they said, "Do you have any issues taking medications?" I said, "Yeah," because I'll just pick a random day. I w- on Monday, I won't take Monday's tablets. I'll just impulsively grab a box, take all the tablets, and then an hour later say, "Hang on, have I taken my tablets?" I don't know because both of Mondays f- are full of tablets, but Wednesdays are gone and there's got to be a better system for ordering medication and for taking it 'cause I can't work it out.

50:18Yeah, I use these, timer caps where it, like, shows you how long it has been. And those, I was like, I'm like, "This is so good," because there's been so many times where I've been like, "Oh, did I take medication today? I should know this." The only problem is the batteries have run out on mine, and I just… I've got batteries to replace them. It would take seconds to do, but I just never-- My brain just doesn't wanna do that. It's too boring All right, well, we're coming up on time here, so I was wondering if you guys had any final thoughts you wanted to leave the audience with?

50:52I think, yeah, I, I think as always, your experience is valid and, you know, whether we're talking about the, the book or not, there are so many people who are on-- at a point on this, their ADHD journey. I hate that phrase. And for so many of them, they're, they're not even at the point of assessment yet, and yet they're having to s- to start to face up to the stigma that's in society and the challenges that they have at work and the, and the disadvantages.

51:20And I think I always kind of like to try and finish by just reminding people that they're valid and that their experiences are valid and they're not alone. You may feel isolated 'cause ADHD can be isolating, but there are literally millions of us, in, in the UK and in every developed nation who, who kind of understand that experience. If you do feel isolated or misunderstood, then kind of s- seek out community, whether it's face-to-face kind of monthly meetings or an online community, and find the people who, who get you.

51:53Yeah, and I would say that those things that you really struggle with, that you're ashamed of and you try to hide, there are so many people that will struggle with exactly the same things as you. And it's not until you start to open up about that to other people, then, then they think, "Oh my God, somebody else struggles with that." And this secret that you've all been keeping sep- like my whole family all were struggling with similar things, and it wasn't until I got diagnosed that we all talked openly, and we'd been hiding these things from each other in our family.

52:25And I think talking about it really helps, not just you, but other people as well, 'cause it gets them to realize that they're not alone, and I think that's a really powerful thing. Thanks again to Sam and James for coming on the show, and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end. Be sure to check out their book, Focus: The ADHD Guide to Productivity That Actually Works. Before you go, though, let's do a quick rundown of today's top tips.

52:55One, the things we say no to are often just as important as the things we say yes to. With ADHD, we often run on a default mode of saying yes to everything interesting that comes our way, but we simply don't have the time or capacity to say yes to everything. By choosing what we're saying no to, it gives us the space to really embrace the yeses in our lives. Two, while setting and maintaining boundaries with others can be difficult, it is often even harder to set them with ourselves.

53:23Playing directly with what we say no to, James says, "It's sometimes healthier to accept that it may be a passion project now, but ask yourself, is it going to be in three months' time when you're stressed with everything else? It's okay to let things go and change your mind about what's important." Three, try Sam's three-at-a-time rule. With two master lists, work and side quest, pull three tasks and focus on just doing those three things until they're done.

53:52Once complete, move them to a done list, and then you can move on to the next three. But also remember to periodically go through and delete what's no longer important in your list. We all build up to-dos that no longer need to be done and can be let go of. All right. That's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over at hackingyouradhd.com/contact. If you'd like links or to read this episode's transcript, you can go to the show notes page at hackingyouradhd.com/309.

54:22And if you'd like even more Hacking Your ADHD, be sure to sign up for my newsletter, Any and All Distractions, which comes out every other week. In it, I try and give out my best distractions of the week, be they what I'm reading, what I'm playing, what I'm watching, and everything in between. I also try to give out a few bits of actionable advice in each newsletter, although your mileage is gonna vary there. If that sounds like something you're interested in, head on over to hackingyouradhd.com/newsletter to sign up.

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