The Blindside Divorce & Everything Is Embarrassing

0:03Speaker 1:Welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud.

0:05Speaker 2:It's what women are actually talking about on Friday the 28th of August. This is my last day in the chair before Holly Wainwright returns on Monday to resume normal transmission.

0:16Speaker 1:I'm Mia Friedman.

0:17Speaker 3:I'm Amelia Luster. And I'm Em Burnham.

0:20Speaker 1:And because it.

0:20Speaker 2:Is Friday, it means that we're going to swerve away from the news, you'll be pleased to hear, and towards topics that hopefully won't give you a nervous breakdown. On Fridays, we like to let our hair down and boogie like we're Nicole Kidman.

0:33Speaker 1:In Ibiza at 3am. Here is what's on our agenda for today.

0:39Speaker 4:Look, ghosting used to be about dating, but now it's extending to long-term relationships and even marriage. Why?

0:47Speaker 5:Plus, before we achieve greatness, we have to first complete a more embarrassing yet necessary step.

0:55Speaker 1:And I have spent today sorting all my friends into two different groups. And you've probably already done it without even realising.

1:03Speaker 2:But first, in case you missed it, I have great news.

1:07Speaker 1:You can now buy shoeless shoes.

1:10Speaker 4:Yay.

1:11Speaker 1:Or frontless shoes or footless shoes.

1:14Speaker 5:That's not good news for you because you have your cold toe.

1:16Speaker 1:That's very true.

1:17Speaker 2:And look, even I think this is silly. A couple of weeks ago, I told you about the toeless sock trend, which I'm really into.

1:23Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.

1:24Speaker 2:But that wasn't enough for two designers who said, hold my beer. And they have released shoes that have no front. So they're just a heel tied to your foot with either some straps or some strings.

1:38Speaker 1:Chanel did it first. They sent these like, I can't even call them sandals because.

1:43Speaker 2:It's just like the back of a heel of a flat sandal tied to your heel.

1:49Speaker 1:Well, to the model's heels. And They sent them down the runway.

1:53Speaker 2:They haven't so far put them on sale. But this week, Margaret Qualley went to a film premiere wearing them.

2:02Speaker 1:Yeah.

2:02Speaker 2:Even though they're still not available. However, if you are gagging for some footless shoes, Jeffrey Campbell, the shoe designer, he's done a kitten heel version and you can buy them for $ 80.

2:15Speaker 5:I reckon it should be $ 40. It should be half price because you're getting half a shoe.

2:18Speaker 1:Yeah.

2:19Speaker 5:I think the inspo for this came from, you know, when you have to take the trash out and there's only sneakers at the door and you don't want to fully commit to putting your whole foot in. So you kind of do that little hoppy thing. That is for sure.

2:29Speaker 3:What Chanel was going for.

2:31Speaker 4:When I saw Margaret Qualley, she's beautiful, wearing a beautiful dress. All I could see was the feet. I don't know if you agree, but it reminded me of why we wear shoes. In addition to safety and hygiene, I feel like feet are not inherently what you want to draw attention to.

2:46Speaker 1:No. No, and the big season of spring, summer is going to be the thong heel.

2:55Speaker 2:Like the kitten heel or the thong, you know, or the wedge. Basically we're going to be getting our toes out if you care about such things. But at least we will have some kind of material between us and the road, us and dog poo, us and the disgusting things that people.

3:12Speaker 1:Spit on the footpath.

3:14Speaker 2:Yeah, I have a related question because I was thinking about this. What happened to bindis?

3:20Speaker 3:What do you mean?

3:22Speaker 1:Do you remember bindis growing up on grass? Do you know what a bindis is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are there bindis anymore?

3:29Speaker 3:Yeah, there are.

3:29Speaker 1:When? When was the last time you got a bindis in your foot?

3:32Speaker 5:When you're at Bondi Beach and you have to walk past that patch of grass to get to the water.

3:37Speaker 1:Are there bindis there?

3:37Speaker 5:Oh, my God. You see everyone just kind of like circling the area going, who's going to go first?

3:43Speaker 4:Yeah, right. I thought you were going to ask us if pedicures are over because I think they are.

3:47Speaker 1:Do you?

3:48Speaker 3:I'm done with them.

3:49Speaker 2:Really? Yeah, I've stopped getting my nails done as much as I used to because I just can't sit still for that long.

3:54Speaker 1:Why have you stopped?

3:56Speaker 3:I can't sit still. I don't like the smell. I don't like the expense.

4:00Speaker 4:And I once saw Anna Wintour and she has a particular shoe that she always wears in summer, which is a nude colored kitten heel. And she never gets a pedicure. I started to notice.

4:12Speaker 1:Oh, no.

4:12Speaker 2:I'm going to draw the line there. I'm going to continue getting pedicures, but the big nail trend is kind of short, unpolished nails, which I made up.

4:23Speaker 1:That's not used to me. No, I didn't. I'm using it to justify the fact that I can't be bothered to get my nails done anymore.

4:30Speaker 4:Gather round because I have an urban horror story to tell you. Except this one is true. Just imagine I have a torch underneath my chin and we are sitting by a campfire. It's horrifying. 26-year-old Rihanna was living with her boyfriend outside London.

4:45Speaker 3:That's the horror story.

4:47Speaker 1:The end.

4:48Speaker 3:His mother, the boyfriend's mother.

4:51Speaker 4:Often said, why don't you buy a place? Stop wasting all this money on rent. But Rihanna didn't quite feel ready. She said, no, I'm happy to rent. Two years into the relationships around Christmas time, the boyfriend says, I'm headed out to buy some Christmas gifts.

5:04Speaker 3:And then he never came back. Never came back. He just ghosted her. Two years? After two years.

5:11Speaker 1:Wait, were they living together?

5:12Speaker 4:No. Yes.

5:13Speaker 1:They were living together?

5:14Speaker 3:Yes.

5:15Speaker 1:Sorry, I blanked out. I just forgot everything that you said.

5:18Speaker 4:So this is from a British Vogue article about a new species of man, the disappearing boyfriend. Basically what it says is we associate ghosting with dating and with meeting people on apps and sleeping with them once. But no, all signs now are pointing to the fact that it is happening in long-term relationships too.

5:38Speaker 1:I have questions.

5:41Speaker 2:When you ghost someone that you're dating, pretty easy. You might have to block them. When you're living in the same house... What about all your stuff?

5:52Speaker 3:Yeah, great question.

5:54Speaker 4:Rihanna told Vogue that at first she thought something terrible must have happened, which I think is an obvious sort of place that your mind goes to. She reached out to him on social media and she found that she was blocked. And that's how she discovered that he was alive and well. He was just avoiding her. And then she points out that all of his clothes, family photos, passport, everything, everything's still in the house.

6:16Speaker 1:What?

6:17Speaker 4:So he came back to get it when she was at work and then she never saw him or spoke to him ever again.

6:23Speaker 5:I've had this happen to two friends I know of who were broken up with. Not ghosted, but like... The breakup was already planned in the guy's head. And so he, both of these guys had moved everything out of their shared house and then did the breakup over the phone.

6:42Speaker 1:So wait, did she not notice that like removalists came?

6:46Speaker 5:Well, she, like she was at work. Both of them were at work at the time. And then they get home and like their home is like half empty.

6:53Speaker 1:I've heard about that, about someone going away for a, you know, a girl's trip or something. And he moved out while she was gone.

7:04Speaker 4:One of the people interviewed in this Vogue article calls the police because she's really worried that, again, something terrible might have happened to him. And the police are the ones to be like, no, he's absolutely fine. He just never wants to speak to you again, which I don't think is a good use of police resources.

7:19Speaker 5:Imagine a police person telling you that.

7:21Speaker 1:You know, you've just been broken up with.

7:23Speaker 4:So do you want to know who to blame for this? Because Wired says that it's Gen Z.

7:27Speaker 1:Oh.

7:28Speaker 4:They say, they wrote an article about this trend too, and they said that in this generation, terminating communication without any closure has become a real thing. And it says why that is, is that Gen Z aestheticizes estrangement by turning heartbreak into content.

7:47Speaker 5:Surely not.

7:48Speaker 1:It also turns it into identity. Oh my God.

7:50Speaker 2:It's like I'm going no contact with my mother, sister, father, ex.

7:57Speaker 4:It's very much an extension of that no contact trend, saying this person is toxic for me and therefore I can have nothing to do with them.

8:04Speaker 5:And then they're probably thinking it's fine because then their partner has been practising let them theory so they won't ever interfere back into the relationship.

8:13Speaker 1:Don't you think it's just also.

8:16Speaker 2:To return to the theme of our inability to process discomfort.

8:20Speaker 1:Like it's uncomfortable breaking up with someone.

8:23Speaker 2:Yeah. Having to look someone in the eye and say, I don't want to be with you anymore and explain to them and it's not instant and you have to feel bad over a long period of time.

8:32Speaker 4:Yeah.

8:32Speaker 1:And it's confronting and all those things. They don't want that.

8:35Speaker 4:And I think that makes sense, Mia, because it is happening in marriages too, but in a slightly different way.

8:40Speaker 3:So think of Bell Burden Strangers.

8:42Speaker 4:There's a moment in that where her husband seemingly out of the blue says to her, I don't want to be married to you anymore.

8:49Speaker 3:And when it.

8:49Speaker 4:Happens in marriages, is that ghosting or is that just the fact that divorce is often blindside one person in the relationship?

8:57Speaker 2:Yeah, I was reading about the blindside divorce where one person I mean a lot of breakups are like this the ones that aren't mutual where one person has no idea like there's two types of breakups either you have no idea and it comes out of the blue or.

9:15Speaker 1:Things are kind of rocky yeah and it's.

9:17Speaker 2:Either you agree together that it's not working or it's.

9:21Speaker 5:Not a shock But shouldn't, like, because you're married, shouldn't, there shouldn't be a thing as a blindside divorce. Doesn't that invoke, like, you owe the other person to have a conversation about it?

9:33Speaker 2:I mean, you know, just because you've got a marriage certificate, of course. I mean, in basic common decency, but I wouldn't say that's any different to living with someone for two years.

9:42Speaker 1:Yeah.

9:42Speaker 4:And also, I don't know if the conversation actually helps because when the truth comes down to I don't want to be married to you anymore, do you really want more information from them?

9:51Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I do because I think I need to understand. Otherwise, I think it makes you go mad.

9:58Speaker 1:I've seen this. It makes you crazy.

10:00Speaker 2:Going what did I miss everything because it's not when that happens to you it's not just your future that you lose it's also your past because you think I thought we were happy I thought you know we went on holidays we did this we had sex we did all of these things we had people over for dinner We talked about having children together or whatever.

10:22Speaker 1:And meanwhile, they knew. Yeah. So I think that you need to understand.

10:29Speaker 5:But I feel like sometimes the reason can be worse than ghosting, depending on what like headspace you're in. I remember for Mamma Mia, I wrote a piece years and years ago about about how I went through a breakup. And I think my title was, I Wish I Was Ghosted Instead. And it was this breakup where I was with this guy for a few months. And he broke up with me because he said he found someone else. And then he just sent me this long paragraph on like how great.

10:55Speaker 1:This person he found was.

10:57Speaker 5:And I was like, honestly, just ghost. Because if you ghost me, then I can pretend something happened to you. I don't have to be told that, like, you left me with someone who's amazing.

11:07Speaker 4:You just reminded me that I had a friend who had someone break up with her and sent her essentially a letter of all of her perceived personality faults.

11:14Speaker 1:Oh.

11:14Speaker 3:Which I don't think you want to know.

11:15Speaker 4:What's interesting in this BBC article about the blindside divorce is it says it's much more likely to happen to women. And that's because women often are the ones who take on the emotional labor of talking about the relationship, checking in, taking the temperature of the marriage. So when the man is the one to say, I don't want to be in this marriage anymore.

11:35Speaker 3:often.

11:36Speaker 4:That woman who took on that emotional labor, that's why she feels blindsided. She's like, but that was my job to take the temperature of this marriage.

11:43Speaker 3:I've seen it.

11:43Speaker 2:Happen both ways because to generalize, because men communicate less, when a woman... is done, she stops communicating. And I think for a lot of men, that's just a relief.

11:56Speaker 1:Or they don't notice.

11:57Speaker 5:Yeah, right.

11:58Speaker 3:There's just less talkies.

12:00Speaker 4:So do you think it's a new thing at all or not?

12:02Speaker 3:This notion of the blindside divorce?

12:05Speaker 2:I don't think the blindside divorce or the blindside breakup is new. I think that this idea of ghosting, like that's a whole other level. You know, that's blindside. At least you tell someone what's happening, even if you don't answer their questions and they weren't expecting it.

12:21Speaker 1:To just leave someone with that unresolved pile of shit that they'll never be able to resolve, this knot that can't be untangled, that's cruel. That's cowardly and that's cruel.

12:37Speaker 2:I think that a blindside divorce, yeah, it would be nice if you dropped some breadcrumbs along the way, But there are also sometimes people don't know until they just know. And the problem, I think, with any breakup when it's not mutual is that by the time the person drops the blind side or even starts saying, hey, I don't think this is working, we should talk, they're usually done. They've usually been going through that process slowly. So when the other person says, I had no idea, they're like, how could you have no idea? Like we haven't had sex for three months or, you know, we don't talk anymore.

13:17Speaker 2:And the other person just didn't notice.

13:20Speaker 5:I think ghosting in general is like the product of what once started as like a little dating trend has like festered into something that's more and more big that like festers into all of our relationships. I remember when ghosting like was first a thing and it was seen as something that's like, it's so embarrassing if you ghost someone, like be a man, like speak up, like just tell them you want to break up with them. But now it's like so and so common. I remember I went on like five dates with a guy and then he ghosted me and I was so upset. But it was around the time where everyone was getting ghosted. And a lot of people told me like, oh, that doesn't really count because you didn't really know him. And I was like, we went on five dates. And they were like, yeah, but you weren't in a relationship, so it doesn't really count.

14:02Speaker 5:So it's like we just keep pushing these dating trends further and further and further away until it genuinely has consequences for a relationship.

14:10Speaker 4:So you said be a man. Do you feel like in these situations it was the men only? who were doing the ghosting or did women ghost?

14:17Speaker 5:Because I date men. So in my experience, it was just men. But then, yeah, I find out that women also ghost. And coming back to like the relationship breakups, I can imagine how if you have already planned the breakup in your head and you've moved all of your stuff out and the last thing to do is to just do the breakup, I can imagine the easy way out would be just not doing that part and just leaving.

14:39Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.

14:40Speaker 5:And I think more and more people are thinking that's a socially acceptable thing to do.

14:44Speaker 1:Yeah, I.

14:46Speaker 2:Ghosted a hairdresser once and I've never forgotten it. And I feel really, really bad. And I then bumped into her and it was so uncomfortable.

14:54Speaker 3:And it serves me right. It serves me right.

14:57Speaker 2:I once asked that same hairdresser, weirdly, because I was writing an article about it, what you should do if you needed to move hairdressers. And she said, look, it's just always better to be honest and upfront. And then a few years later, I ghosted her.

15:12Speaker 1:I'm a terrible person.

15:15Speaker 2:I just didn't know how to say. I don't like the way, you know, I'm a bit bored of the way you do my hair. I'm going to move on to someone I like more.

15:22Speaker 4:I don't think honesty is always the best policy.

15:25Speaker 5:You're sounding like that ex I had now.

15:27Speaker 3:Yeah.

15:28Speaker 2:Outlouders, on yesterday's subscriber episode, we talked about things that celebrities are doing this week, particularly three couples who are doing happy things, sad things and secret things.

15:39Speaker 3:You can listen right now.

15:40Speaker 1:If you're not already a subscriber, there's a link down below.

15:44Speaker 5:After the break, the importance of being mid. To be great at anything, you have to be mid first. This was a quote by Kareem Rama that stuck with me when I read his recent interview in GQ magazine. If you don't know his name, you definitely know his content. Kareem is the guy who created Subway Takes. It's a mini social media series where he has a guest on a subway and he asks them for their most controversial take. He's had a lot of viral ones. One of his top videos is, dating apps should have a 30-day expiration date on all the photos you upload. He's had Cate Blanchett on and her hot take was, leaf blowers need to be eradicated from the face of the earth. J-Lo said, you have to be born in New York to consider yourself a New Yorker. And in the piece, he said.

16:31Speaker 1:So like quite high profile celebrities.

16:34Speaker 3:Yeah, quite high profile celebrities.

16:36Speaker 1:Like hot wings.

16:37Speaker 4:Exactly.

16:38Speaker 5:In the piece, he said it was one of his subway takes that became the principle of everything he does, which is everything is embarrassing. And it's what actor Austin Butler, he was recently Elvis in the Elvis film. It's what he told him.

16:53Speaker 6:Somebody very close to me.

16:55Speaker 1:I was at a party once and I was dancing and they said, embarrassment is an underexplored emotion. Go out there and make a fool of yourself.

17:04Speaker 6:Wow.

17:04Speaker 5:And things like that.

17:05Speaker 6:That's really a good mantra.

17:07Speaker 5:Yeah, to just go for it.

17:09Speaker 1:Like feel that feeling, the fear of cringe.

17:12Speaker 6:Wow, that's really good. And then go out there and do it. Because everything you want is on the other side of that.

17:16Speaker 2:That's really interesting. Everything you want is on the other side of that. I think embarrassment is something that you can't have if you're an actor or a performer because performing and acting are inherently embarrassing.

17:31Speaker 5:Yeah, you're pretending.

17:32Speaker 1:Yeah, getting up in front of people. It's inherently embarrassing.

17:36Speaker 2:And this essay that Karim wrote, he said he's just been embarrassed. Like he's had to get really comfortable with being embarrassing because what he does is interview people on a crowded train. People stare. You have to be okay with that. And he said, I'm also on Instagram. Like a man being on Instagram... That's embarrassing. So making content is embarrassing because you have to put yourself out there.

18:02Speaker 5:I also like what he says. Well, firstly, with the Austin Butler thing, it was so interesting that that was his take. Because I remember after he did Elvis and he was on the press tour, he kept the Elvis voice and people were making so much fun of him for keeping the Elvis voice. And I think he really lent into that and just completely ignored those comments. But what I really like what Kareem says is the idea to be great at something, you have to be mid first because it is a total embarrassment. He said it's an embarrassment to your friends, your family and people you'd like to have sex with. And I think that's just so true. Like to achieve something you really want, you have to be kind of bad at it first.

18:41Speaker 4:And the funny thing is that embarrassment itself is embarrassing. Like if you stand up in front of people to give a speech and you look visibly embarrassed, you actually look much more silly than if you stood up to give the speech and you embraced the moment and you tried to just infuse it with confidence. Now that is easier said than done, but it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The more embarrassed you are, the more embarrassing the situation can become.

19:05Speaker 5:And to just like also own it. Mia, I remember when I started podcasting and I had like, when we did like these kind of like trials, like pretend episodes, but that didn't actually go on air. Oh my God, we should actually find them. They were so funny. But I was always really, really nervous and really, really anxious. And you told me to just call it out, like to just say, oh my God, guys, I'm so nervous because it's my first time podcasting. And when I did that, it immediately just cleared the air and then you could just get on with it.

19:33Speaker 2:Because trying to act like you're cool is exhausting.

19:39Speaker 6:Yeah.

19:39Speaker 2:And it's also very hard to maintain. That's why I find the whole um.

19:46Speaker 1:Cringe, everything's cringe.

19:48Speaker 2:Like there's a, there's quite a, a Gen Z thing about don't be cringe, this kind of effortlessly cool, even the way, uh, younger people post on Instagram, Gen Z's post on Instagram, like a photo dump where it's like everything's got to be blurry and no one can look nice. And then I'm like trying to take a photo of my daughter and I'm just like, she's like.

20:13Speaker 1:Why is it on portrait mode? And I'm like, because it looks nice.

20:15Speaker 3:Because it's a portrait. Because it's a portrait.

20:18Speaker 1:And it's like everything's got to be ugly.

20:19Speaker 2:Everything's got to be because the worst thing that you can do is.

20:23Speaker 1:Look like you're trying.

20:24Speaker 2:And I remember feeling that way as a teenager because you're most insecure and But then I really like trying, even though our culture, particularly in Australia, we don't reward trying. So if you look at the people who are the most polarising, Delta Goodrum, the Irwin children, they try. They try really, really hard. And that's seen as somehow uncool or tragic.

20:53Speaker 1:Yeah.

20:54Speaker 5:I was also thinking about Kim Kardashian and how many brands she had before she found success with Skims and the show. Do you remember KKW Beauty?

21:05Speaker 3:Yeah.

21:06Speaker 5:And that just completely disappeared. And then she had that little app, that games app on your iPhone that you could play. And I feel like we... What Kareem says, like a way to get over embarrassment is like you have to remind yourself that no one thinks about yourself more than you do, which is also a Jemima Kirk thing where she was like, I think everyone's thinking about themselves too much. And it's so true. Like no one really thinks about you as much as you think about yourself.

21:30Speaker 3:That's true.

21:31Speaker 4:I also find the concept of cringe mountain really helpful. You've got to climb cringe mountain. That idea that it is going to take you some time and you're going to like encounter altitude and falling rocks, but then you'll– climb to the summit and you'll feel proud of what you've done.

21:46Speaker 2:I was reading this and thinking about the difference between embarrassment and shame because I don't get embarrassed, but I feel a lot of shame all the time about things.

21:59Speaker 1:So I'm not embarrassed. You can tell by the way I dress.

22:03Speaker 2:I'm not embarrassed of sounding stupid or I'm not embarrassed of failing. I'm not embarrassed of any of those things. And I'm not ashamed of them either.

22:14Speaker 1:Shame, to me, the.

22:15Speaker 2:Difference is embarrassment is feeling bad about something that you've done. Shame is about feeling bad about who you are.

22:24Speaker 1:Oh, right. It's much deeper.

22:26Speaker 3:Yeah.

22:27Speaker 2:It's not about, that's why like You can have a business that fails or you can try something that doesn't work. You can make a meal that doesn't work. You can ask someone out and they say no. And that could be embarrassing, but shame is, to me, is much deeper. Do you see that distinction?

22:44Speaker 5:I see it more as like shame, like embarrassment turns into shame if you let it fester. I think exactly what you said, embarrassment is like isolated, like what you think of yourself. But I think shame can, it happens when... other people are bringing their opinions onto you as well.

23:02Speaker 1:Shame is about identity, I think.

23:03Speaker 3:Yeah.

23:04Speaker 5:And it reminds me of like that Game of Thrones episode where Hannah Waddington is walking down the street going, shame, shame. I think it's like when other people tell you that you should be embarrassed about things. I think that's best as a shame.

23:16Speaker 2:It's more than embarrassment though, because like cancellation, for example, taps into shame.

23:21Speaker 1:It doesn't tap into embarrassment.

23:23Speaker 3:No.

23:24Speaker 1:It taps into shame. It's saying you are a bad person.

23:27Speaker 4:And do you think that embarrassment has become and shame have become more widespread now that we're all watching each other more?

23:37Speaker 1:We've never been more conscious of being perceived.

23:40Speaker 3:Yeah.

23:41Speaker 1:You know that stuff about dance as though no one's watching. Yeah. Everyone's watching.

23:46Speaker 3:Everyone's watching it all the time.

23:47Speaker 1:All the time.

23:47Speaker 3:With their meta glasses.

23:48Speaker 1:Exactly.

23:49Speaker 2:And even if you aren't someone who has to talk into a camera, which is inherently embarrassing to do, like you just feel like a goose.

23:56Speaker 1:That's why I go through phases of posting on social and not posting on social because sometimes I just go, I feel like such an idiot. I'm just going to stop doing that. And then I'm like, people seem to like it and it achieves something for me, you know, for whatever reason. I'm just going to not worry about what other people think. Yeah.

24:16Speaker 2:But shame is about how you feel about yourself. And so, like, I think that that's really interesting that you've got to be shit at something.

24:24Speaker 1:10,000 flying hours, right? You've got to be shit at something before you can get good at it, which involves embarrassment. Yeah.

24:32Speaker 2:After the break, it's recos, and also you'll be rethinking all of your friends by the end of the show.

24:37Speaker 6:And even if you make friends. You have to have different groups of friends, right? You have your daytime friends, who you sit up more straight for. You have coffee with them. Maybe you use bigger vocabulary words around them. That's your daytime friends. You want to impress them. Then you have your nighttime friends. And these are the people you are currently with. And these are the people you are more yourself around, right? Ah, so me! Yeah, and that's why your daytime friends can't meet your nighttime friends.

25:17Speaker 6:Because then they'll know you're a liar.

25:22Speaker 5:That was stand-up comedian Atsuko Okatsuka, who was actually in Sydney last week. She's been touring around. She's so, so funny. But I love the concept of daytime versus nighttime friends. I used to call them my first date friends versus my relationship friends. Because it's like the concept of daytime friends are the friends that you want to show your best self forward to.

25:46Speaker 1:Okay.

25:46Speaker 5:They're the friends that like bring out the best version of you. It could be like your book club friends, the friends where you're just like talking about like surface level things.

25:53Speaker 2:So to be clear, they don't have to be friends that you see in the day.

25:57Speaker 4:No.

25:57Speaker 2:Okay. I thought it was literally the friends that you see in the day. And I'm like, well, that's the people I work with and my family. And then my friend friends I see after dark, but it's more just.

26:08Speaker 3:The idea.

26:09Speaker 1:I see.

26:10Speaker 5:This is like what you want to be in daylight and then what comes out at night.

26:13Speaker 4:Daytime friends are the ones you're like, we should go to this book talk together.

26:17Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay.

26:20Speaker 5:And then nighttime friends are like, here's what's going on with my vagina right now. I need you all to be across.

26:25Speaker 1:Got it. So what do I am?

26:29Speaker 5:You guys, well, the thing I try to do is I try to convert my daytime friends to nighttime friends. And it's pretty obvious who's daytime friends depending on how they respond to me during the nighttime. Where I'm just like, can I tell you about my dating life? And they're like, no, thanks. I'm like, oh, daytime friends.

26:45Speaker 3:I've got it.

26:46Speaker 5:I have to put you there.

26:46Speaker 4:Can I say that for mums of small and smallish children, this is a real problem?

26:53Speaker 3:Because you meet mums through your kids.

26:55Speaker 1:They're all daytime friends.

26:56Speaker 3:Inherently daytime friends.

26:57Speaker 1:All of them.

26:57Speaker 4:And then there's a trial and error process of whether they become nighttime friends. Yes. Right.

27:03Speaker 1:That's so true.

27:04Speaker 3:And a lot of them, it just doesn't work.

27:07Speaker 4:And then you find, like, maybe I'd say one in five becomes a nighttime friend.

27:12Speaker 2:It's time for our recommendations. We have a food, we have a book, and we have an album.

27:18Speaker 1:Amelia, what are we reading?

27:19Speaker 4:Well, daytime friends, I have a book for you because we like reading around here.

27:24Speaker 1:We do.

27:25Speaker 4:I love coming of age stories and I love coming of age stories set in Italy even more. Mia, you will remember this, I hope. Do you remember that Liv Tyler movie, Stealing Beauty?

27:35Speaker 1:I do. It happened in Tuscany.

27:37Speaker 3:It was in a 90s chokehold.

27:39Speaker 4:Yes, it was set in Tuscany and it was like a sexual awakening in Tuscany. I'm sure that in retrospect, it was deeply problematic in many ways, but the landscapes are so lush and you just get sort of swept away in it all. There's now a new Italian coming of age story. It's a book by Andrew Sean Greer. What's interesting is He is a very serious writer, but he has clearly just decided with his new book, having won a Pulitzer Prize, that he's just going to write something super fun.

28:03Speaker 5:Oh, I love that.

28:05Speaker 3:And he has.

28:05Speaker 4:It's just super fun and funny. It's loosely based on his own experiences working for an eccentric Italian baroness after he graduated from uni.

28:15Speaker 2:Oh, I'm in.

28:15Speaker 3:Which is so great.

28:16Speaker 4:She just wafts around. So in this novel, she's like 92. She's wearing caftans. She has a truffle hound that follows her everywhere. I mean, do I need to sell this book anymore? It's just delightful. And the best part about it is that you feel like you're there in Tuscany with him because his descriptions of the landscape and the meals are just too good.

28:35Speaker 5:Oh, I love that.

28:36Speaker 1:I have a record that's an album. It's five weeks old.

28:41Speaker 2:It's Gracie Abrams' album, Daughter From Hell. It came out about five weeks ago, and I reckon I've had it on repeat.

28:46Speaker 1:For four of those weeks. It debuted at number one.

28:50Speaker 2:And yes, I am a Gen X woman recommending a 26-year-old's album about being.

28:55Speaker 1:Sad at parties.

28:56Speaker 2:But it's really good because the subject of the album, I mean, I don't listen to lyrics.

29:00Speaker 1:I'm going to be honest here. I don't really care about lyrics.

29:03Speaker 3:That's why you like the album.

29:05Speaker 1:I just like it.

29:06Speaker 2:It either, I enjoy listening to it or I don't like, and there's a mix of songs. There's like a piano ballad called The Knife, which is amazing. There's like a funny one called Look at My Life where she's sort of funny about her own misery. And then there's one about, called Imaginary Friend. And this is interesting because Gracie Abrams is very celebrity adjacent. I mean, she's famous in her own right, but Her boyfriend is Paul Meskel and he has a writing credit on the song Imaginary Friend.

29:38Speaker 1:It's a ghost story that's set in a kitchen.

29:40Speaker 2:Her best mate is Audrey Hobart, who is another great singer-songwriter. Bon Iver's on two tracks.

29:47Speaker 1:Her dad is J.J. Abrams, who is the director.

29:52Speaker 2:And it's produced by Aaron Dessner, who's the same guy who made Folklore.

29:55Speaker 1:So if you like Taylor Swift's.

29:57Speaker 2:Folklore album, it's sort of– That sound, but more synthy. So there's some bops in there, but God, it's good.

30:04Speaker 1:I just love it.

30:05Speaker 2:And weirdly, because I thought the name of the album was great, Daughter From Hell. It's not about her being a daughter from hell.

30:12Speaker 1:It's about actually her own mother and who was a daughter from hell and then how she sort of became who she is now. So anyway, that's if you like the lyrics. Otherwise, just listen to it.

30:24Speaker 3:It's great. What's an activity that you would do when you're listening to this?

30:28Speaker 1:Oh, I love it.

30:29Speaker 3:Driving.

30:29Speaker 2:I love it driving. Also just, you know, cleaning up. I like it for cleaning and I like it for driving.

30:35Speaker 1:Nice.

30:37Speaker 5:I'm recommending a recipe which is huge for me. I'm kind of in the potluck phase of my life where I'm attending a lot of dinner parties and lunches at other people's house. And no one prepares you for this. You just suddenly turn 30 and then you have to do this. We have to bring a plate to these events. And because my whole thing was like I don't cook, which used to be fun and quirky and now it's a problem. So what I would do was I'd do the cheese platters. I'd do the charcuterie boards. I'd bring in these big boards. But then I started paying upwards.

31:07Speaker 1:Of $ 150.

31:08Speaker 3:That's very expensive.

31:09Speaker 5:I'm like, this is so expensive. So I was like, I need to bring something. I need to stop with this behavior of I don't cook. Try to do something and also impress my friends. And I've lent into making focaccia from scratch.

31:21Speaker 3:But that sounds really complicated.

31:23Speaker 1:You certainly started the hard way.

31:25Speaker 5:It's so, so easy. I use this recipe and this method from Recipe 10 Eats. Nagi has two different versions. She has like a proper focaccia and then she has like a quick and dirty focaccia, which is the one I do.

31:38Speaker 1:No kneading.

31:39Speaker 5:It's so easy. It's a lot of just waiting for dough to rise. So you're basically doing nothing.

31:43Speaker 2:Yeah.

31:43Speaker 5:And then like decorating it and making it pretty. I've only heard rave reviews from family and friends.

31:48Speaker 1:What do you decorate it with?

31:49Speaker 3:Yeah, what do you put on top?

31:50Speaker 5:So the first one I did, I did like just a sea salt. The second one I.

31:54Speaker 1:Did- Very elaborate decoration. I did a- A bit of rosemary?

31:57Speaker 4:Olive.

31:57Speaker 5:No, because I haven't nailed the herbs yet because they burn for me.

32:00Speaker 3:So I have to figure that out.

32:01Speaker 5:It seems a bit more complicated. The second one I did that people loved were tomato and olives. And then the last one that everyone loves is cheese and garlic.

32:10Speaker 1:What sort of cheese do you use?

32:13Speaker 5:Just like I do a bit of parmesan and then mozzarella because the parmesan is the punch and the mozzarella is like.

32:18Speaker 1:The cheesy pulley. And does it just go on the top?

32:20Speaker 5:Yeah, just the top.

32:21Speaker 1:It's so easy. And the garlic do you like?

32:24Speaker 5:Um crush it what are you doing the garlic you have to kind of um i don't know what it's called where you have to like heat it up on a stove and then get the oil and make it all like juicy.

32:32Speaker 1:Like reduce it yeah sweat it yes.

32:34Speaker 5:Sweat it out you can't put fresh garlic in because it just burns so you have to like make it into like a bit of an oil and then pour it on top do you.

32:40Speaker 2:Know you're the second person this week who has recommended a nagi recipe to me another one was um someone who said they were going home to make pad see you which is my favorite thai dish with um thick rice noodles And you can put any sort of protein in Patsy or none if you just want to have vegetables, but prawns or chicken or beef or whatever you want. And she sent me that recipe too. So let's put them both somewhere. We'll put them both in the newsletter.

33:09Speaker 1:How about that?

33:10Speaker 2:We'll put links to all of our recos in the newsletter. If you want to subscribe to the newsletter, and why wouldn't you? It's usually written by Holly. Sometimes it's written by Em.

33:19Speaker 5:I'm doing it this week.

33:20Speaker 1:We'll put a link in the show notes. Before we go, a quick thing, Outlouders. Mamma Mia is sending one subscriber and three of their friends to the Gold Coast. Could be nighttime friends, could be daytime friends. I think maybe nighttime friends for this trip. Here's the part I want to flag.

33:37Speaker 2:It comes with unlimited express passes. So good.

33:42Speaker 3:All the right.

33:42Speaker 1:I'm just going to leave that right there. No queues. The queue is actually the holiday. If you've ever done a theme park with children, you'll know that the ride is not the holiday. The queue is the holiday. And this removes the queue.

33:54Speaker 2:So the rest, sorry, it's a $ 5, 000 Dreamworld getaway. It includes everything. And all you need to do is be a subscriber to Outloud. So not only will you get access to our fitness app, Move, and you'll get us in your ears two extra days a week, you will be eligible for all of these prizes as well. T's and C's apply. There's a link in the show notes if you want to support us and become a subscriber. That's all we've got time for. Thank you for having me this week and the week before. Holly's going to be back in your ears on Monday.

34:26Speaker 3:We'll see you then. Bye.

34:28Speaker 1:Bye. Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we recorded this podcast.