Three Rules For Life & The Worst Person In A Conversation

0:03Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia Out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about on Friday the 2nd of October. I'm Holly Wainwright.

0:10Speaker 2:I'm Jessie Stephens.

0:11Speaker 3:And I'm Em Burnham.

0:13Speaker 1:And here's what's made our agenda for today. Three rules for life that I find inspiring and our Em finds embarrassing.

0:22Speaker 3:Plus, there are five types of conversation hoggers and we need to fight them.

0:28Speaker 4:And our recommendations, including the movie that you, Em, say could even be better than The Odyssey and I am listening.

0:34Speaker 3:Hard opinions in this one.

0:36Speaker 1:But first, Jessie Stephens.

0:38Speaker 4:In case you missed it, a TikTok video about job interviews and iced coffee has gone viral, and I simply cannot wait to hear both your opinions, right? So Caitlin Wynanian is a US-based recruiter, and here's what she said.

0:51Speaker 5:My Gen Z candidates are showing up to their interviews with iced coffee, iced latte in hand. And here's how I perceive that as a recruiter with 16 years of experience that deals with mostly Fortune 500, super buttoned up corporations. It is perceived from my opinion, my hiring standpoint, that when you show up with an iced coffee or an iced latte, that this interview is just like a stop on your list of errands for the day. It looks like you went to Target, then you went to Starbucks, now you're stopping by your interview, then you're.

1:23Speaker 2:On to the next thing.

1:25Speaker 5:It looks a little too casual to me. And again, this is like your perception of how you're perceived in this 30 to 45 minutes that you have to interview. This is important. Don't show up with iced coffee or the iced latte. Save that for well before the interview or after the interview. Go and get one.

1:43Speaker 2:But don't like waltz into your.

1:45Speaker 5:Interview all casual with an iced coffee. It just looks like you didn't have time to finish your coffee beforehand.

1:51Speaker 2:Okay, so that was her opinion.

1:55Speaker 1:Are people really doing that?

1:58Speaker 2:Yes, they are.

1:59Speaker 1:What do you mean?

1:59Speaker 4:And Holly, when you see the comments, so the top comments. but an interview is just a stop in my day. It's not my whole day. Another comment, do you guys need employees or not? And the third one, why do we have to pretend we aren't human? M, is an iced coffee in a job interview play on?

2:19Speaker 3:I want to kind of dissect her for a little bit, Caitlin, our good friend. Because when I heard her talk, it reminded me about this moment where my mum ate a breakfast roll and the egg yolk in the breakfast roll squirted into her hair.

2:35Speaker 1:Okay.

2:35Speaker 3:And then we were doing a long road trip and she had this egg smell in her hair and now she's never been able to eat eggs again.

2:41Speaker 2:Okay.

2:41Speaker 3:I think Caitlin interviewed someone. They spilled coffee. all over her desk, all over her. She was sitting in that coffee smell the whole day. And now this is her way of saying, please. So you think she's triggered. She's had a traumatic event happen around an iced coffee. And now she's projecting onto everyone who walks around with an iced coffee.

3:01Speaker 1:You're making this her problem. It's not her problem. It's the problem of the people walking into her office with iced coffees. That's wild.

3:09Speaker 3:I do have to say, if you're bringing, firstly, if you're drinking iced coffee, grow up.

3:14Speaker 1:We don't do that anymore. My teenager only drinks iced coffee. I took her into a coffee shop the other day and the woman behind the counter just looked at her and said, I assume it's an iced coffee. It's a child's drink.

3:25Speaker 3:I think if you're bringing in an iced coffee in an interview, you are very confident. If I was interviewing someone who brought in an iced coffee, I'd be intimidated.

3:34Speaker 1:A power play, you think? A power play.

3:36Speaker 3:Because, okay, think about it. You're holding your iced coffee. If you're nervous for an interview, that would be shaking, making a loud noise.

3:41Speaker 2:Okay, it's loud regardless.

3:43Speaker 4:The thing about any other hot drink is that it's a silent hot drink. There's something so especially leisurely about an iced coffee. It is such a weekend drink, I think.

3:52Speaker 2:The other thing is... You're all on drugs.

3:54Speaker 1:It's about the coffee. It's about taking.

3:56Speaker 4:Wait, so you're saying a hot coffee would be the same?

3:58Speaker 1:Like, you go to a job interview, you're not walking in there with, like, your sandwich and your coffee. You're just not, like.

4:05Speaker 2:And your shopping bag.

4:06Speaker 1:If you want a coffee, which, believe me, I always want a coffee, you have it before you go in. You wouldn't... How could you be taking a takeaway drink into a job interview? Like... That blows my tiny mind. Because you're first. Yeah. You have it first. This is not a drinking, unless they've invited you for a coffee, different, right? And you know how often job interviews are framed like that.

4:29Speaker 2:They're like, let's have a coffee.

4:31Speaker 3:But I think that's weirder because if I'm going to a coffee meeting, I shouldn't be bringing my own coffee.

4:37Speaker 1:You're providing. If they say to you, come in for a coffee, then you're not paying for the coffee. That sets off the... But you can't take a takeaway drink into a job interview.

4:45Speaker 2:My issue is the iced coffee. Right, she was at the ice. Yes, yes.

4:49Speaker 4:Because I think, so there's this like psychological principle, right, that they did this experiment where we're in the lift, Holly, let's say like we're doing an interview and we actually get in the lift together. And I say to you, hey, could you hold this hot drink for a second? And I go and do something. Apparently you will perceive our interaction differently. as warmer and better because of like something about the warm drink. So even like it's a trick where you might see a psychologist, you might go in for an interview, you might have something and the other person will be holding something. There might not be anything in there, but the like implicit nature of a warm drink endears you to people. It's like a whole hack thing.

5:25Speaker 1:A cold drink has the opposite.

5:26Speaker 2:Anyone asking me.

5:27Speaker 1:Anyone asking me to hold their drink so they go and do something is not getting the job. That is absolutely A1, top of the list right there.

5:35Speaker 4:I also think that not only is it, like, loud, the condensation is, like, a bit yuck for an interview. Like, the condensation, it's just very wet. And then I shake your hand and I've got a wet, cold hand, which is yuck. And the condensation's on your desk. Yes, it's a straw against the ice. It is so loud I cannot even hear your answers.

5:52Speaker 2:Like, I don't know. How big is this.

5:54Speaker 1:Size coffee in your head?

5:55Speaker 2:It's become a jumbo.

5:57Speaker 1:It's enormous. Because I know there's no rage bait like, oh, my God, Gen Z. There's no better rage bait than that. Don't know how to behave in a job interview. So I know it's a bit tired. But there is definitely a different expectation. As I say, I would be, if anyone brought a coffee or anything, takeaway food into a job interview, I would not be impressed. Just because I would be thinking... You do all that first. When you walk in here, you are focused. We are doing this.

6:26Speaker 1:I'll offer you a coffee if I want you to have a coffee. This is the thing that's really interesting in this, in the comment section there, is an implicit power flip, which is interesting, which is when they say, do you want employees or not? If you're a manager, you're like, do you want a job or not?

6:42Speaker 2:Right.

6:42Speaker 1:So it's interesting that to me, thinking as someone who's hired people and done a lot of job interviews, I'm thinking you're here to impress me. Like, to be honest.

6:52Speaker 2:Whereas they're walking in with their.

6:53Speaker 3:Coffee going, you impress me.

6:55Speaker 2:You're here to impress me and I've got my coffee.

6:57Speaker 1:Oh, watch.

6:57Speaker 2:I'm just going to vibe whether you're it for me or not.

7:00Speaker 4:Cause this is my day off and I came here for my day off to meet you.

7:03Speaker 1:Which is really interesting when you, when you think about it like that. And obviously I'm not saying that it's good that I sit there thinking impress me, but I'm like, if you want this job and you've applied for it and you couldn't organize your day well enough to have had your coffee before you walked in here, I'm like.

7:19Speaker 3:On Mama Mia's work and career podcast, Biz, we talked to interview experts and they said that if you go to an interview and they offer you a glass of water, always say yes because it makes you more likable because they feel like they're doing something for you and helping you.

7:38Speaker 1:And also just saying yes.

7:39Speaker 3:And just saying yes. And so I wonder if like bringing in your own like coffee does the opposite, whether like you did that for yourself.

7:47Speaker 1:You know what?

7:48Speaker 2:It signals that you're not a team player.

7:50Speaker 4:You've come in, you've thought about yourself and your own desires. You've not offered anyone else shit.

7:54Speaker 1:You didn't bring me a coffee.

7:55Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that makes you unlikable.

7:58Speaker 1:Out louders, we need to know. We need to know your thoughts. Who's right? Clearly it's me. We all love some rules for life, right? We love it. That Jordan Peterson guy that you.

8:09Speaker 2:Used to be so keen on.

8:10Speaker 1:He's got like seven or something. He went quiet, yep. Massive selling book with his 12 rules for life or whatever it was. But whose rules do you want, right? In my algorithm, I have seen one woman's rules for life over and over again this week. And that is a 79-year-old performance artist, Laurie Anderson. Now, no one's in trouble for not knowing who she is. She is a very like, kind of obscure but influential musician, filmmaker, writer. But she was married to Lou Reed, so like very cool New York vibes, right? She's like an icon, but almost like a boomer icon, you know? Anyway, she's still very cool and she still makes podcasts. performance art and her the clip that's gone viral for her is she's standing up in Brooklyn where else where else would she be.

9:03Speaker 2:It's the most Brooklyn thing I've ever seen.

9:05Speaker 1:The most Brooklyn thing you've ever seen um playing electronic because she was also a bit of a tech innovator she was making electronic music way before it was a thing that most people did playing her body as a kind of instrument this is where Em begins to lose it I'm gonna hold your hand I.

9:21Speaker 3:Don't like your definition of cool because sometimes you call me cool and I'm.

9:24Speaker 2:Offended We're going to get to that.

9:27Speaker 1:Anyway. She gives her and Lou Reed, do you know who Lou Reed is? Mm-mm. So he is, he was the lead singer of the Velvet Underground. Absolutely, like, you still, like, still know him. Is that a band? Okay, Walk on the Wild Side.

9:41Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know that song.

9:42Speaker 1:And they, again, very, I mean, this is before my time, to be clear, just in case you stayed to me. This is, like, the 60s. This is, like, a long time ago. But very cool dude. I think the reason why you might listen to their rules for life is if you're a creative right? If your aim is to become a crypto bro, probably Laurie Anderson and Lou Reed's rules for life are not for you. She's led a big, bold, long, creative life.

10:10Speaker 4:I also think you've got to have lost a lot of collagen before you're giving me rules for life. Like if you're on TikTok and your face doesn't move, like you've not lived enough life to be giving me your wisdom.

10:20Speaker 1:That's so true. Laurie has lived some life. Anyway, let's get to them. Three rules. We're going to play them to you. If you're wondering what the noises are, it is the fact, A, she's outside, and B, she is playing.

10:30Speaker 4:Playing her body as an instrument.

10:32Speaker 1:You'll see. Here's number one. My husband, Louis, and I, and invented three rules to live by. You wanna know what they are? Yes? Yes?

10:43Speaker 5:Number one.

10:52Speaker 1:Don't be afraid of anybody. You know what your life would be like if you weren't afraid of anybody. Kick-ass rule.

11:02Speaker 2:Don't be afraid of anybody. Okay, so I'm afraid of everybody. While you're taking your.

11:04Speaker 3:Blood pressure by the looks of it.

11:06Speaker 1:Just what she's doing. You can't diss the Laurie Anderson. You can't have some respect for the woman.

11:13Speaker 4:Yeah, look, I don't know how to do that. I am generally afraid. I'm not sure if this is good advice.

11:21Speaker 2:I don't know.

11:22Speaker 4:Living in a society where no one is afraid of anybody could result in, like, I love that she's playing her body as a musical instrument in Brooklyn.

11:28Speaker 2:Like, I think that's really cool. But, like, we can't all do that. We almost have to be afraid of the tax man. The bills man.

11:36Speaker 1:The critics.

11:40Speaker 5:Okay.

11:41Speaker 4:I know there are tax women too, but they're nice.

11:45Speaker 1:You have to get past the fact that she is being an avant-garde. I can't. I can't. Because... It's so clear she's not afraid of anybody. I think she should be. I think some of us should be afraid.

12:00Speaker 5:Why?

12:01Speaker 3:I think it's important for society.

12:04Speaker 1:If someone walks in with their iced coffee, I'm going to be afraid. You and I are going to have a generational war about this. Because you're like, she should be embarrassed. That's basically your position of being unafraid. And I'm like, thank God for people who aren't afraid of being sniped at. You know what I mean?

12:20Speaker 3:You know who else I don't think is afraid? Donald Trump.

12:23Speaker 1:Yeah, he could.

12:24Speaker 2:I agree. I think he could do with some fear.

12:26Speaker 1:That's a really good point because I don't know I think he is I think there's a little scared man in there who hates being criticized look how upset he gets every time.

12:35Speaker 4:I agree calls him out that when I hear that line I feel like this wow imagine who I could be if I wasn't afraid of xyz like that's so empowering.

12:48Speaker 2:But then like I meet someone I'm terrified just all downhill.

12:51Speaker 4:From there like I don't know how to do that do you feel like you're less afraid now than.

12:54Speaker 1:Oh I'm afraid of um am I less afraid now that I'm older? Yes, I am less afraid now that I'm older, but I'm still afraid. But I don't want to be. That's the thing. Like some of these rules are very, again, who you choose to listen to about rules for life. Like I think when you're making art, which is what she's talking about, being unafraid is a really good thing. And I don't think I've achieved that. I think when I write and all those things, I'm always afraid. I'm afraid of the critics. I'm afraid of what people might think about it. I'm afraid of exposing myself.

13:26Speaker 1:I'm afraid of being vulnerable. I'm afraid of all those things. So it's a great aspiration.

13:31Speaker 2:It's a great goal. I agree.

13:32Speaker 1:Okay, number two.

13:34Speaker 5:Number two. Get a really good bullshit detector.

13:41Speaker 1:And learn how to use it. Okay, can we agree on that? Learn who's telling you.

13:47Speaker 4:To do it. Okay, I think I've got a great bullshit detector and I don't think I have any idea how to use it.

13:52Speaker 2:Does anyone know how you're meant to use it?

13:53Speaker 1:The using it is the tricky part. Because I have a very good... detector for people who are flim-flamming me yeah flim-flamming me that's an old lady term but like you know blowing smoke yeah and all that kind of thing and when you know that really their intentions are completely opposite to yours I've got a very good detector about that what do you do with it I don't know what do you do with.

14:15Speaker 3:It I'm not sure if I have a good detector but I know I'm a bullshitter so I can tell people who don't have good detectors and people who just.

14:22Speaker 4:Like believe me I feel like if I was at this and she was doing like her I'd be like excuse me I have a question.

14:28Speaker 2:How do I use my detector?

14:29Speaker 1:Beth, please. Can you elaborate on that point? Is she taking questions from the crowd? You guys. You. Tell me the last time you bullshitted. Ooh. This is a good question. The last time I bullshitted.

14:45Speaker 4:Like, do you bullshit to, like, crawl? To, like, kiss people's ass a bit? Like, is that the kind of bullshit?

14:52Speaker 1:No, I think sometimes, like, I feel like.

14:56Speaker 3:We're too, like, relying on people telling the truth. And I'm like, a lie now and then never hurt anyone. So sometimes I'll just, like, lie a bit. If someone's like, oh, do you love this dress? Do you think I should buy it? I'm like, yeah.

15:08Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

15:09Speaker 2:Because I don't actually care.

15:11Speaker 1:My bullshit detector is going off, but I'm like, I like this dress too. Fuck it. Yeah, exactly.

15:15Speaker 5:Okay.

15:16Speaker 1:And number three. Number three.

15:18Speaker 3:Be really tender. Be really tender. I hate that word, tender.

15:27Speaker 5:What?

15:28Speaker 1:I don't know.

15:28Speaker 2:It reminds me of chicken.

15:29Speaker 3:I don't want to be chicken.

15:32Speaker 1:Like tenderized.

15:33Speaker 2:Yeah, like soft and moist. It means kind.

15:36Speaker 1:She means kind, guys.

15:37Speaker 3:It means like, no, I think it means like sex, right?

15:40Speaker 2:It does.

15:41Speaker 4:It feels a bit like be tender. It feels like it's a sexual thing. It does feel a bit sexual.

15:46Speaker 1:She means. Consider other people's feelings and allow yourself to be vulnerable too. That's what she means, right? Everybody thinks they want to do that, but who really does that?

16:02Speaker 2:She says everyone... is too angry. Yes, which is 100% right.

16:07Speaker 4:Which turned the kind of dial down a little bit. And then I think she had something about– she then goes on to say that there's a Buddhist teaching– that says, get to the very bottom of your anger and you will always find a broken heart.

16:21Speaker 1:Oh, I like that.

16:22Speaker 2:I like that a lot. I had like a little light bulb moment.

16:24Speaker 3:She should have started with that.

16:25Speaker 1:This woman is so smart.

16:27Speaker 2:I couldn't hear it over her electronics. I have to listen to that again. Can you repeat that?

16:32Speaker 3:I'm done with you.

16:32Speaker 2:Microphone closer to your mouth, please.

16:35Speaker 1:I'm done with you and the arrogance of youth to be telling Laurie Anderson how she should communicate her wisdom to us.

16:42Speaker 2:Em just reckons live, laugh, love.

16:44Speaker 5:Yes.

16:44Speaker 2:That's what she reckons.

16:45Speaker 4:Simple.

16:45Speaker 2:She's just got that above her bed. No beatboxing involved.

16:48Speaker 1:Much easier to have in that like neon writing and have it in your hallway. Yeah, it's beautiful. I don't know. Tender is a good word.

16:56Speaker 3:Outlouders, in a moment, the art of conversation and the five types of people that are getting it wrong.

17:01Speaker 1:So.

17:03Speaker 3:We've all forgotten how to have a conversation. The Guardian recently made us aware of this with an article by Anita Chowdhury titled, But Enough About You, How to Survive in a World Full of Monologuists, Interpreters, and Trauma Dumpers. So the article says that there are too many people who don't know how to have a conversation and we need to identify them so we can fight back. And they listed five types of conversation hoggers. Shall I go through the types?

17:29Speaker 5:Yeah.

17:30Speaker 3:Okay, the first we have is the serial monologuist. So it's the person who talks and talks and talks and talks. You can't get any word in. And then after the conversation, you might like know what their father does for work, their aunt's maiden name, but they don't know a single thing about you.

17:45Speaker 4:And they're also the type of people who you realise they're on a roll and it's no longer about you, whether you find it interesting or not. And I've had instances like this where someone's been at a table telling a story and someone will go, we've actually heard this story and they just keep going.

18:03Speaker 2:And I go, oh, okay, this is like you're in a bit of.

18:05Speaker 4:A trance and like you're just enjoying the sound of your own voice and it's so unfeeling.

18:09Speaker 3:I like to go when someone's monologuing at me, I'll just go, land the plane. Like let's get there. Let's get to the end. Let's land the plane.

18:18Speaker 1:Don't you reckon sometimes you're the monologuer? Like don't we all find the sound of our own voice is really interesting and other people's voices sometimes you're like, hurry it along.

18:27Speaker 2:I've got a story to tell.

18:28Speaker 4:Yeah, and sometimes I'm like, what I have to say is a lot more interesting than where you're at in your story, so I'll just jump right.

18:34Speaker 2:In and save this. But I don't know.

18:38Speaker 4:Sometimes I find a monologue art great because you get to kind of relax and do some jobs.

18:42Speaker 3:In your head.

18:43Speaker 1:There's some people who you're like, that'll be great because I don't have to do anything.

18:46Speaker 2:I'll sit there and I'll go elsewhere.

18:48Speaker 3:You can be like, yep. Yeah, nods, laughs. Yeah. Then we have the trauma dumper. So this is the person who kind of uses you as a therapist and unloads all of their dirty laundry onto you. So it's kind of like I was once in a conversation with this group of people and this guy came up to us and he introduced himself to me and he knew everyone else. And then we kind of just like ended up where everyone else just kind of scattered. And I was like, oh no, something's happening here. And then he told me how he was like in this like years long dispute with his sister about like their father's property. And I was kind of interested because I'm like, oh, this is what rich people get angry about. But it was kind of like, this is, I know a lot about this man.

19:30Speaker 3:I didn't even know his name.

19:32Speaker 2:Yeah, I've had that too, yeah.

19:34Speaker 3:Okay, then we have the boomer asker. This one's my favorite. So this is the person who asks you a question that they want to answer themselves. So it's kind of like boomeranging. And there's like three parts to this. So there's the ask brag. So Holly, what did you do on the weekend?

19:53Speaker 1:Oh, I had a really quiet one, Em.

19:54Speaker 3:Oh, I went to Paris. It was amazing.

19:58Speaker 1:It was so good. That's the ask brag.

19:59Speaker 3:That's the ask brag. And then there's the ask complaint. Hey, are your shoes comfy?

20:04Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, I guess so.

20:06Speaker 3:Mine are so uncomfortable.

20:08Speaker 1:Like blisters everywhere. This is very familiar.

20:12Speaker 2:Yes, it is.

20:12Speaker 1:And then the ask share.

20:14Speaker 3:So what are your guys' thoughts on pineapple and pizza?

20:18Speaker 1:I don't like it.

20:18Speaker 3:Oh, it's the best thing in the whole world. I love pineapple on pizza. Oh my God. I had pizza last night.

20:23Speaker 1:It was amazing.

20:24Speaker 3:And then we have like the interrupter. So say you are kind of like monologuing, but like the situation calls for it and you have like a 10 minute story to say, but then it takes you 30 minutes because someone keeps interrupting and asking questions and talking over you.

20:38Speaker 1:So what I'm trying to tell you.

20:40Speaker 2:There we go.

20:42Speaker 1:I love how you embody all of these.

20:44Speaker 2:I really do.

20:44Speaker 3:It's so adorable.

20:45Speaker 4:Is this about the way that we communicate now though? Like is this about the fact that we voice note rather than phone call? Every piece of communication that we share is now on our terms. We text when we feel like it. We respond when we feel like it. I have a friend and she's out louder and she's the best. And she sent me a voice note recently that was like 22 minutes. And it was so long that she stopped halfway through and said, this is really long.

21:07Speaker 4:I'm going to do a brought to you by. And she did a sponsored read.

21:11Speaker 2:Like it was a podcast. And I was like, I'm going to start doing that.

21:14Speaker 1:That's very funny, but let's not encourage it. Let's not encourage it from my friend's 22 minute voice notes. I'm like, please God.

21:20Speaker 4:Sometimes I have to write notes because I'm like, I have to respond to the point made at two minutes, at four minutes 40, at.

21:25Speaker 1:You're so right. Like, how are you, you know, when you, you know, when something's going on and a friend calls, cause they know that something's going on. So they're like, I want to hear about that. And you're not in the mood to tell the story.

21:36Speaker 5:Yeah.

21:37Speaker 2:How do you handle it?

21:38Speaker 1:Because that's the thing is like, I recognize that behavior in myself where I get like, cause I will complain about voice notes and the fact that we only like being on demand and we don't like being hijacked and dah, dah, dah. But then if I am hijacked and I'll be defensive and I'll be like, I don't want to talk about this right now. Why are you calling me and making me talk about.

21:55Speaker 3:It right now?

21:55Speaker 4:I think sometimes conversations are... meant to happen when people don't feel like it. If we're waiting for two people to be in the exact mood to have the exact conversation, it's never going to happen. Like the hijacking is part of it and maybe an emotion that will come out that's closer to the surface that's actually true. So I think that we think we've got to be in a certain mood but we all know the feeling of picking up a phone call you don't want to pick up and it's actually a great phone call.

22:18Speaker 1:You're right and sometimes I do this thing where I'll say– I don't want to talk about it. And then I find that I have only talked about that. Apparently I did want to talk about it. Apparently I really did. I just didn't want to be the person who wanted.

22:31Speaker 2:To talk about it.

22:33Speaker 1:And then we.

22:34Speaker 3:Have the Care Bear.

22:36Speaker 1:Okay.

22:36Speaker 2:So I read about this one. This is my number one that I hate the most.

22:39Speaker 3:It's so, okay.

22:40Speaker 2:This is so annoying.

22:41Speaker 1:What's a Care Bear? How are you? I'm all right. No.

22:44Speaker 4:No.

22:45Speaker 1:Oh, I hate that.

22:47Speaker 2:How are you really?

22:48Speaker 3:Oh, I hate that.

22:49Speaker 2:I hate it. Get out of my pocket.

22:52Speaker 1:Oh, you're so right.

22:53Speaker 2:They're the worst people in the world.

22:55Speaker 1:They're the worst. I hate that.

22:56Speaker 2:I hate that.

22:56Speaker 1:This is the thing about that is that if you're not all right, like if there's stuff going on and stuff and you say I'm all right when I'm asked, like just fucking play along. Yeah. You know, we'll get to it in the conversation, but if you touch my arm and look in my eye. Oh dear.

23:13Speaker 2:I don't want to talk. I hate it.

23:16Speaker 1:Concealed electronic musical.

23:18Speaker 2:It's like forced intimacy. They're trying to do it really quickly.

23:21Speaker 4:They're just, and I always feel manipulated because I feel like they're trying to get something out of me that I don't.

23:28Speaker 2:Want to give. them and it's like I'll offer it.

23:30Speaker 4:If I'm ready but I don't feel like you really care here like I oh and.

23:34Speaker 3:They never do jokes like I'm quite a bantry kind of conversationalist yes and I remember I once dated this guy and I couldn't figure out why I didn't like him and then it was because of the types of conversations we were having was like we'd be at dinner and he'd be like it's really interesting how you feel like you always have to like put yourself down when you make jokes and you're so self-deprecating. Like where do you think that comes from?

23:54Speaker 1:And I'm like, sir, just pay for my meal and leave. That's all I want. My friends and I, we have a code where you're like, how are you? And you go, fine, fine. You know, and like there's a nod in there that's like, it's not fine, but we're not talking about it now. We'll talk about it later. Like, you know what I mean? And that's fine. But people who don't know you very well, The Care Bear, you're so right.

24:14Speaker 2:I hate that one.

24:16Speaker 1:After the break, why I had a whole rant prepared about this next segment that I've just had to spike. Look, I came into this segment today wanting to rage about something. I think it's the mood I'm in. I was like... the injustice in the world has reached new heights. There is a list of the best 100 TV shows in the world in the New York Times. I have chosen to get very indignant about it.

24:41Speaker 4:You probably had a monologue about how the New York Times hates women.

24:46Speaker 1:Because my argument about this is that there's a list of all the 100 brilliant TV shows of the 21st century. I'm going to quickly tell you the top 10 and then I'll bring my perceived gripe that was nonsense. Please do. Number 10, Atlanta. Good show. Donald Glover show. Number nine, Curb Your Enthusiasm. I have a confession.

25:08Speaker 5:No.

25:09Speaker 4:It's a brilliantly written show. I appreciate it. I don't enjoy watching it continue.

25:13Speaker 5:Okay.

25:13Speaker 3:So funny.

25:14Speaker 1:Number eight, 30 Rock. Love that show. Number seven, Veep. So funny. Number six, Game of Thrones. Sure. Number five, Fleabag. Yes. Absolutely. Number four, Succession. Clever People TV, number three, Mad Men, number two, The Wire, number one, Breaking Bad.

25:32Speaker 5:Breaking Bad.

25:32Speaker 1:Now, what's your gripe?

25:33Speaker 2:What's your problem?

25:34Speaker 1:This is a list of prestige TV, of the kind of TV that we should all be watching and that we may get around to watching one day. I had a whole monologue prepared about where is Sex and the City? Where is Sex and the City?

25:46Speaker 2:Oh, what a great point. Where is it?

25:48Speaker 1:Well, I got all upset and then I found out that it launched before this list was conceived. So it was... The thing about Sex and the City is that these are the best TV shows of the 21st century. It premiered before January the 1st, the year 2000. So therefore it wasn't eligible. And my whole.

26:06Speaker 2:That's why The Sopranos isn't there too.

26:08Speaker 1:That's why The Sopranos isn't there. My whole rant is gone. Which brings me to the point that A, rants are bullshit, but B, lists. Like, should we care about them anyway? Why did I spend half my day being upset about where are the most influential women who have ever been on TV? Where are they in this list?

26:28Speaker 4:And then when you were getting really upset, I did hear, I think it was Em ask you, are you upset that Andra Sy that isn't on there?

26:33Speaker 2:And that was not something you're upset about. I was not upset about that. You accepted that?

26:36Speaker 1:I had to ask. I had to ask.

26:37Speaker 4:I have questions because I'm obsessed with these lists. I'm always on Rotten Tomatoes just like... What shows do I need to watch that I haven't? I truly believe that True Detective Season 1 is one of the best pieces of television ever created.

26:48Speaker 3:I agree.

26:49Speaker 4:That's got Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson.

26:52Speaker 3:And they're in a new show together on Apple TV.

26:54Speaker 1:I watched some of that at the weekend.

26:55Speaker 2:You didn't like it?

26:56Speaker 5:No, no, no.

26:56Speaker 2:It's not True Detective.

26:57Speaker 1:No, no, no.

26:58Speaker 2:It's not that level. What I need to ask is, do I seriously need to watch The Wire?

27:04Speaker 1:Yes, if you have all the time in the world you do. It's really good.

27:07Speaker 2:Okay, do I need to watch The West Wing? I haven't seen that either. But, like, there are all these, like, The Sopranos. Like, I haven't seen those. Then I turn it on and I'm like, ah.

27:17Speaker 1:You know, it's what it's like now, these prestige TV shows that go for a very long time. It's like, do I really need to read Tolstoy?

27:26Speaker 2:Yeah. And the answer is no.

27:27Speaker 1:Well, the answer is no. But if you did, like, if you had all the time in the world and you did read you'd probably be glad that you did. Do you know what I mean?

27:38Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, fair enough.

27:39Speaker 3:Which is why I think, Hol, your new gripe with this list should be sex in the shit, sex in the shitty.

27:45Speaker 2:Sex in the shitty. Voidian slip.

27:47Speaker 5:Yes.

27:47Speaker 1:That's outrageous. Sex in the city.

27:50Speaker 3:Should be included because it's a timeless masterpiece because I think we should be ranking um like the best pieces of art based on like how long they stay in our world for yeah and I'm like Sex and the City everyone's still watching it we're still talking about it the.

28:06Speaker 1:Cultural touchstones the amount of times it gets quoted the strong feelings it evokes in people who think it's terrible great whatever like It is an amazing show. None of those shows, I mean, actually, that's not true. I was going to say they don't have the same vibe, but I guess that some of them do. Like there's comedies in that list, no question.

28:23Speaker 2:The Simpsons, I think, made it.

28:25Speaker 1:Yes.

28:25Speaker 2:The Simpsons is great.

28:26Speaker 1:That's older than Sex and the City.

28:28Speaker 5:Oh, yeah.

28:29Speaker 2:Oh, maybe that was in my other list. I looked at a Rotten Tomatoes list too.

28:33Speaker 1:I'm going to generalise, but a lot of men, because we did this last week about things men like, a lot of men in my life love a top five list. If conversation runs out, they'll be like, top five movies go and you're just like, oh.

28:45Speaker 2:What's your favourite song of all time? Mine's Bohemian Rhapsody.

28:48Speaker 3:And I'm always.

28:51Speaker 2:Like, why did you have that? You know why? Because they want, this is exactly the conversation thing. The word for them. The boomerang asker.

28:59Speaker 3:Yeah, they want to tell you theirs.

29:00Speaker 2:They're trying to be like.

29:02Speaker 4:Well, what would you say your five best movies of all time so that I can say Inception?

29:05Speaker 1:Apocalypse Now. Yeah. So they can say Apocalypse Now.

29:08Speaker 3:I can tell you every man's top five movies, okay? It's Shawshank Redemption.

29:13Speaker 4:It's so true.

29:14Speaker 3:The Green Mile.

29:15Speaker 1:Yes.

29:15Speaker 3:Spirited Away.

29:16Speaker 1:Yes. Shutter Island?

29:18Speaker 3:Yeah, Shutter Island and maybe Avatar.

29:21Speaker 1:And if they're a bit older like my guys, it would definitely be The Godfather and Apocalypse Now would definitely make it to that list. And you're so right. They just want to tell you. And it's a bit like this. Maybe I only brought this up so I could tell you that Sex and the.

29:35Speaker 2:City is actually the greatest TV show ever.

29:38Speaker 4:It's Friday, so we want to set up your weekend with our very best recommendations because in a few states, it is a long weekend.

29:46Speaker 2:We get three days of weekend. We do. We certainly do.

29:49Speaker 5:Em?

29:50Speaker 4:Actually, should we do M last because it's a movie? Holly, what is your recommendation?

29:55Speaker 1:So I have already talked about this book on the show, but I talked about it before it came out. It was How to Be Hopeful by Catelyn Moran. Yes. But now I'm reading it. Actually, I'm listening to it. So I'm listening to her read it to me.

30:08Speaker 2:Is it satisfying?

30:08Speaker 4:Because sometimes nonfiction books, I feel as though you can capture the gist through an interview and then there's not much more happening in the book.

30:15Speaker 1:I am loving it. I am absolutely loving it. And it's a very specific recommendation, because it's kind of written from a very specific point of view, right? When I talked about it on the show, I said how one of the things I liked about this book, so Catlin Moran is, for context, she's a UK writer, feminist, she was a music journal wunderkind like in the 90s so now she's midlife woman she's actually i think we're very similar age so i probably relate to her in that way she not everything she writes or does i adore um but she wrote how to be a woman which is an iconic feminist book which you know really captured a moment And this one's called How to Be Hopeful.

30:57Speaker 1:And it starts with a very relatable life stage, which is that she is a woman with, you know, semi-grown up kids, whatever, who works in the same world I work in, I guess, which is the media. But that's certainly not the only, certainly this situation isn't typical to that. In a pit of despair about the world, right?

31:19Speaker 2:Yeah.

31:20Speaker 1:Her hormone collapse is colliding with the world appearing bleaker than it ever has in or at least it feels that way right the big problems of the world that we're dealing with and the whole point of this book is how to find hope in a dark place but it's really practical and funny so the thing i particularly love about it is it's not it could be dismissed as and i'm sure it will be a bit dismissed as and even when we were talking about it on the show amelia brought this up it's like everything's fucked, so don't look at it. It's not that. She has these really practical ideas of how you can make your life feel more hopeful, how you can look for the positives in things that isn't as simplistic as the advice of like, don't read the news. Don't read the news is part of it and meditate and stuff. It's not that, right?

32:10Speaker 1:It's much more nuanced than that. It's much funnier than that. And don't read the news is kind of part of it, but she talks less about don't read the news and more about, make it work for you in pockets of your day that you can handle it or pockets of your week you can handle it and talk in the most articulate way to describe those things that we talk about a lot, about how it just feels at the moment like everything's overwhelming us.

32:32Speaker 2:Yeah. And despair is a political strategy. It's like that is not a good thing for.

32:39Speaker 4:Anyone and you don't want to turn into one of those people that's just waving your fist at the clouds.

32:42Speaker 1:This is why I think this book's quite radical. I wouldn't co-sign every word. She's got a chapter in there about online activism that I generally agree with, but I wouldn't agree with every word. But there's a lot in here about... I think that about how the act of being hopeful and looking for the good things in your community, in your world, in your life is not a cop-out. It's the opposite. Because as she says, there are a lot of people very invested in making us all think that people are awful, that the world is awful, that everything is awful.

33:11Speaker 2:And there's nothing you can do about it.

33:12Speaker 1:And that, you know, social media has exploited that in us and doom scrolling and all those things. And her point is basically that being hopeful and finding ways to make your world, your community, your corner of things better is radical. And I just... I am loving it. I am swimming in it. I'm loving it. It's great. It's funny. It's inspiring. It's made me want to do things. I love it. Okay.

33:34Speaker 3:Love that.

33:35Speaker 4:My recommendation is an app slash website. Have we heard of Vinted?

33:41Speaker 1:I have heard of it, but is it secondhand clothes?

33:45Speaker 4:That's part of what it does. And so I was introduced to it as like the next kind of Depop. And I'm a Facebook marketplace, I'm a Depop, and now I'm Vinted. It only launched in Australia in like July this year. So there are all these like kind of special offers that are being thrown at the Australian market to try and get us to use it. So taking advantage of this moment, very good. So it's called Vinted and it isn't just clothes it does shoes toys phones electronics bikes golf clubs like anything in your house that you're like I've been wanting to get rid of this chuck it on vinted my friends who have done this have managed to make like so much money over the last you know month or so just going through their stuff and popping it on there and what my hack for it has always been because you don't Like the trouble with buying stuff online is like am I going to get it and it doesn't fit or whatever. So my thing is that like I go shopping in a real shop, I try on shoes that I like, I try on whatever, and then I find it on Vinted or Depop or whatever. And you wait for it. Maybe you wait an extra two weeks. But it is fantastic.

34:50Speaker 4:The thing with shipping is it is unusually cheap at the moment. I don't know if that's going to change, but they've got heavy shipping subsidies and promotions. So basically there's no shipping and it's all really cheap and fast. So jump onto Vinted secondhand. Um, and so good for kids clothes.

35:06Speaker 2:I was like, I was looking at.

35:08Speaker 4:The thing about kids is they keep growing and then you need new clothes. And I just went on the other day and was like, oh, just buy her a whole new wardrobe from here. And I don't have to go and get a whole lot of landfill stuff. So Vinted, really good.

35:20Speaker 2:Highly recommend.

35:21Speaker 1:Okay.

35:21Speaker 3:I'm recommending a movie that you have to watch in cinemas. I'm so sorry. It's called Digger.

35:27Speaker 5:Wow.

35:28Speaker 1:I know about this movie.

35:29Speaker 3:It's the new Tom Cruise movie. And it's the one that he's been doing all his interviews and stuff.

35:34Speaker 1:It's everywhere you look. It is? So good.

35:37Speaker 3:Like I was not expecting anything. And then what I was shown just like blew me out of it.

35:43Speaker 1:It's directed by that really big deal Spanish director that everyone wants to work with, right?

35:47Speaker 2:Yeah.

35:48Speaker 1:Like it's not a Tom Cruise movie.

35:50Speaker 2:What's the basic premise? Like what's the story?

35:52Speaker 3:Okay, so Tom Cruise plays this guy named Digger Rockwell and he's like this billionaire tycoon and he has all these oil rigs all around the world. One of his oil rigs explodes and it cuts off a massive ice shelf that's like the size of Sydney. And it's like moving its way towards Europe. And his job is to like fix the problem. It's also like satirical. It's black comedy. But I wanted to recommend it really early because I want everyone to watch it right now. Because in the first 15 minutes, this massive plot twist happens that changes what type of movie it is.

36:28Speaker 5:Wow.

36:28Speaker 3:And it's huge and it was completely unexpected. People in the cinema were like, what?

36:33Speaker 2:Oh, I'm excited.

36:34Speaker 3:Tom Cruise is acting in this. I'm not a Tom Cruise person at all. But his acting in this is so good. My bet is on him to win the Best Actor Award in the Oscar. I don't want that to happen.

36:45Speaker 1:He will win it. I want the movie to do well because it sounds like it's got a lot to say.

36:48Speaker 3:But all the actors in it, like Riz Ahmed's in it, John Goodman's in it, I think they're all going to take out the Acting Awards this year.

36:54Speaker 1:Probably. Poor Christopher Nolan.

36:56Speaker 2:I just need a day in the movies.

36:57Speaker 4:There's about five things I need to see in the movies and I just need to go and see them.

37:01Speaker 1:It's brilliant.

37:02Speaker 3:It's out right now.

37:03Speaker 1:It came out yesterday.

37:05Speaker 2:Oh, long weekend. Okay. So good.

37:08Speaker 3:Please watch it.

37:09Speaker 1:Out Loud is that is all we have time for today and this week. Thank you so much for being here with us. Thank you to our team and we will see you next week. Bye.

37:19Speaker 5:Bye.

37:20Speaker 4:Mother Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast.