Catching Up with Shawn Wildermuth

0:01Speaker 1:How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? Become a patron For just five dollars a month. You get access to a private RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month. We'll get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, welcome back to the dot net rocks, to the dot NetRocks, no dot rocks. Good du to du I'm Carl Franklin and I'm Richard Gamble Sewn Wildermuth is here with us. You might hear him chime in in the uh hope so intro here? Hey Sean, Hey, all right, consider yourself chimed.

0:52Speaker 2:Nice.

0:53Speaker 1:This being episode twenty fourteen. So how many more we got to go? Twelve?

1:00Speaker 2:Something like that?

1:01Speaker 1:Yeah, something like that. All right, this is hard. Let's talk about what happened in the year twenty fourteen.

1:06Speaker 2:Okay, hit it hit me? What are you thinking?

1:08Speaker 1:Russia annexes crimea mm hmm.

1:10Speaker 2:This is the whole mazen when uprising, When Yanikovich flees Ukraine, it flees Ukraine for Russia. The Revolution of Dignity, is what.

1:18Speaker 1:They called it.

1:19Speaker 2:Yeah, and then the little Green men appear.

1:21Speaker 1:Yeah. So I don't know if you know this, but Ukraine blew up the bridge that separates Crimea from you know, over the water that goes to Russia. And you know, you know what the river is called Crimea River. Okay, guess where you're gonna go?

1:37Speaker 2:Huh, all right.

1:38Speaker 1:I actually came up with that joke where I did you know what I can tell ye, I did read that somewhere.

1:45Speaker 2:Are you sure? Okay, Yeah, it's a little gbt.

1:47Speaker 1:Ish little I know, but I did. I swear I believe the rise of Isis. Yeah, so Isis captured Mosul, declared a caliphate across Iraq and Syria and carried out mass executions and atrocities. And yeah, the West African Ebola epidemic seems to be back. Ebola.

2:12Speaker 2:This was the year. This was when Paul Allen chipped in one hundred million dollars, which arguably was too much money.

2:18Speaker 1:Yeah.

2:18Speaker 2:This is one of the projects that Humanitarian Toolbox worked on too.

2:22Speaker 1:Yeah, we did.

2:22Speaker 2:We helped with some data processing stuff for the World Health Organization. I would also argue, as terrifying as it was, this was the thing that broke the back of Ebola, the realization that hydration was the real problem. That if you could keep people hydrated, they would survive, at least more of them would.

2:39Speaker 1:Wow.

2:40Speaker 2:Going into the about that Ebola crisis, rivalry was like ten percent, and so people wouldn't even bother go to the hospital. They knew they were going to die. And that's why you keep spreading it. And once rehydration was deployed properly, we knew how to do it, it went up to fifty percent at that point, like your family members take you to the hospital because you've got a pretty good chance of surviving. And that helped they management of the disease massively.

3:01Speaker 1:Wow, what don't you know?

3:03Speaker 2:Actually I got I was very fortunate to be a part of the data processing on all of that and got to be part of that data collection and understand what's going on. We got invited by the Allen Foundation down to San Francisco to do a debrief. It was an amazing time.

3:18Speaker 1:I bet Malaysia Airlines Flight m H three seventy disappeared on March eight, two hundred and thirty nine people. It's still not found.

3:27Speaker 2:No, the problem is that where it probably went down is really brutal water, a whole lot of nothing. That's the southeastern corner of the Indian Ocean, and so apparently there's another team out there trying to find the hull again, but pieces of it washed up in Madagascar and other locations, so definitely broke up at some point and probably by impacting the ocean just by the nature of the damage.

3:46Speaker 1:Well, there was another Malaysian Airline flight MH seventeen that was actually shot down flying over eastern Ukraine and it was destroyed by a surface to air missile. So that was a bad year for Malayia Airlines.

4:00Speaker 2:For another two nearly three hundred people.

4:02Speaker 1:So yeah, the conflict in Gaza, Israel and Hamas fought a fifty day war. Fifty days. It would have been great if it was only fifty days. Boca Haram kidnaps Nigerian schoolgirls. That was a heartbreaking, heartbreaking story. I have the good news. See Sean Richard Richardald tell us the bad news. Ferguson, Missouri protests police shot Michael Brown led to widespread protests, became a defining moment in the modern civil rights movement and accelerated the growth of Black Lives Matter.

4:42Speaker 1:The Scottish independence referendum, Scotland voted fifty five percent to a main part of the United Kingdom.

4:49Speaker 2:Well, and one of their major deciding factors is because they wanted to remain a part of the EU.

4:52Speaker 1:That'll work out, Yeah, no problem.

4:57Speaker 2:Everything's going to be fine.

4:59Speaker 1:Yeah. Hong Kong Umbrella Movement, a massive pro democracy demonstrations, demanded freer elections from Beijing, and the protests foreshadowed the larger Hong Kong unrest that followed several years later.

5:12Speaker 2:Of course, the Umbrella movement being hiding your face because they're all into facial recognition even back then.

5:18Speaker 1:Right in Sydney, the Sydney Cafe siege. Gunman held hostages inside Sydney's Lint Cafe for sixteen hours. Oil prices collapsed. And let's see some other honorable mentions. The Winter Olympics in Sochi, a military coup in Thailand. US Cuba announces normalization of relations. Remember that when we could well you don't remember, but we couldn't get Cuban cigars forever. No, you had to come to Canada. Yeah, that's right, And Obama said, yeah, that's good. We'll take the Cuban cigars.

5:50Speaker 1:And then Trump said no, Robin Williams died. Yeah, ah, been that long. Wow.

5:55Speaker 2:Arguably the greatest comic mind that have ever existed.

5:59Speaker 1:Absolutely going to Robin Williams in Scotland. The thing about how they inventaged. Oh yes, golf, I got a drunk Scottish guys.

6:06Speaker 2:Got an idea for a sport. You hit a ball in a gopher hole. Oh you mean a big hole?

6:14Speaker 1:No?

6:14Speaker 2:No, no, uh.

6:19Speaker 1:Oscar Pistorius murder trial. All right, So yeah, some stuff happened twenty fourteen. That was kind of the bad stuff. Well, what's the good stuff, Richard, Space and Tech. Let's do the space part first. This is actually a really banner year for SpaceX, and I know at this moment SpaceX is a very weird time, but twenty fourteen was the point that SpaceX really tried to enter the commercial space market. There were only twenty open contracts available at the time, and for its first year, SpaceX won nine of them.

6:49Speaker 2:Airy in Space won another nine, and then the last two one was done by Japan by Jackson, and the other one was Ula. Ula only got one, Russia got none, but this was a bad year for Russia, right. Effectively, Russia from this point on is sanctioned from the rest of the world. You know, the conflict in Ukraine really starts here with the annexing of Crimea, and the West is totally against it. So we won't see Russia on the commercial market again. But it's still astonishing to get half in your first year. But this is the price is so good. They also start construction of their star base at Bocachica, which is where the starships will be developed being developed. They also signed a twenty year lease at Kennedy Space Center for Pad thirty nine A and that'll be four crew Dragon. And they also sue the US government because the United Launch Alliance, which was Delta Delta for an Atlas five and today is Vulcan. Realizing that SpaceX is going to eat their lunch big time, makes a deal with the US Air Force. They call it a bulk buy, single source for thirty six rocket launches over the next five years, basically shutting SpaceX out.

7:55Speaker 2:And SpaceX goes, hey, you know what, this is not fair. Will ultimately win that case. It'll take a little while, and ultimately, you know, because they're going to save them a bunch of money. This is also the year that SpaceX wins the contract to build Crew Dragon. They get two point six billion from NASA for that for delivering on it. At the same time, Boeing also wins the contract for a spacecraft called star Liner, and they'll get four point two billion, so almost you know, fifty percent more.

8:25Speaker 2:And yeah, that vehicle. And they were considered the safe bet because you know, SpaceX was way too new and this is a really hard problem and that wouldn't probably work out. This is not what happens, as everybody knows. Yeah, in September, both Maven and India's Mars Orbiter mission enter Martian orbit. They have nothing to do with each other, but it's India's first interplanetary mission, so yeah, for India. It's also the year that near Indomodi got elected. That's right, and I failed to mention that. Yeah, and Mayven just went we just lost me even in this past year, so it ran it could lasted longer, but the last eleven years. This is the year that goes into orbit gets to work. In October, the fourth flight of a Signus supply mission to the space station called ORB three because numbers are hard fails on launch. As it's just getting off the ground, one of the main engines in AJ twenty six explodes and the entire vehicle piles back into the pad, destroys the pad and the cargo. It'll take until twenty sixteen to rebuild the pad. That AJA twenty six is a refurbished NK thirty three engine. That's

9:31Speaker 2:the Soviet engine from the N one Moon rocket from the seventies whoa they during the Opening of Russia. At the end of the collapse of the Soviet Union, the US came and bought as many things as they could, and one of the things they found was stashed away in a warehouse Apili's NK thirty three engines that were supposedly had been destroyed but hadn't, and so this is what the Antres rocket had built on. They'll never use them again. They're very old and obviously had problems, and they'll do so. The next two flights of signals will be on Antlas five before they get the redesigned Atari's run.

10:05Speaker 2:Also in October, spaceship two, the VSS Enterprise has a break up incident that kills one of the pilot that kills the pilot Michael Alsberry and Peter Sabold manages to survive just by luck. He's knocked on conscious but blown out of the vehicle wo and Amas Lamb. We ended up making a show about this in geek Out called two Space Accidents in a Week about the Antari's explosion and then the Enterprise crash. Two last two things in December, the Orion capsule, this would be the one will be carried by SLS just recently to the Moon for Artemis two.

10:45Speaker 2:This was his first test flight on a Delta rocket. It did a high ballistic flight so that it could get to comparable speeds for re entry and the Ryan capsule works perfectly. And finally Jackson launches its Hyabusa two to go to the asteroid Reuni you to collect rock samples off of an astroid. On the computing side, In February, Satin Adella is named CEO of Microsoft Yeah. Also in February, View is released the.

11:15Speaker 1:JavaScript library YEP.

11:18Speaker 2:In March, Windows Azure is renamed Microsoft Azure because this is the year Microsoft starts implementing the truth that Windows is no longer the center of the company. Azure is the center of the company, which is also why in March we publish our last tablet show and subsequently do a mobile and tablet development episode of dot net Rocks. This is the period of us doing three dot net Rocks a week.

11:43Speaker 1:Yeah, starting in twenty fourteen. What were we thinking?

11:45Speaker 2:You know what?

11:46Speaker 1:That was a crazy time.

11:50Speaker 2:In April the Build conference, This is Satche and Adela's rollout on stage as CEO. Things are the nuts. It's also the big movement towards open source. This is the founding of the dot net Foundation. Andrews Halsberg goes on on stage and ship's Roslyn, the new c sharp compiler as a service as an open source project on GitHub and also cross platform. And also announced his typescript one point zero, which is already a hit. Folks love typescript.

12:20Speaker 1:Goodyear for Anders.

12:21Speaker 2:Yeah, and another moment, and I bring this up talking about history of Microsoft. They it was a minor Node and Build, but it was a kind of think about what they said here that Windows licenses are free on devices with a screen nine inches or smaller. Yeah, nothing, it really mattered, but it was sort of a statement about where Microsoft was that they you know, Windows was the main thing they made money from it was the most important thing. Now they're willing to give it away.

12:45Speaker 1:Yep.

12:45Speaker 2:We also get Framework four point five point two, which is kind of the last of the standard frameworks. In June, Apple releases Swift because objective C is a cruel punishment that nobody should be subjected to.

12:58Speaker 1:And Swift was a breath of fresh share.

13:00Speaker 2:Yeah, and still is. People are doing cool things with Swift. Yeah, I could say it's really quite a slift language it. September, Microsoft acquires Mojang, that's the Minecraft people, for two point five billion. This is also the same time that Facebook acquires WhatsApp for twenty one point eight billion dollars, and WhatsApp had something like what's that with that? Yeah, that's a lot, but WhatsApp had like thirty five employees, So like a lot of multimillionaires and billionaires were made from that.

13:29Speaker 3:Wasn't Mojang when they acquired Mojang, You said them, isn't it him?

13:36Speaker 2:Yeah? I mean who exactly did they acquire in the Mojang acquisition?

13:41Speaker 3:One person company, one person company, Yeah, for two points a billion or whatever.

13:46Speaker 2:So he did pretty well. Yeah, yeah, two point five billion. And in the fall we get the HTML five recommendation. So this is where it really really kind of settled on the standard, even though the browser companies have been implementing features NonStop, including micro Soft, that now we get really sort of settle on what the design is. And this is also when Microsoft announces dot net Core is in the fall of twenty fourteen that they are preparing to re engineer dot net to be an open source and cross platform. They're also going to do all the development on GitHub, which is why it'll take eighteen months to get to V one because they actually changed their entire development practice as well as redoing these the code.

14:27Speaker 2:And I remember talking to the guys at the time when they were in this deal came down that it was even possible, and it's like you get to do a rewrite once and this is the ones.

14:35Speaker 1:Yeah.

14:36Speaker 2:And then a couple of security related things. Twenty fourteen is a year of the heart bleed bug. This was a security flaw in open ssl, and it was one of the few times you really saw the broader development community go, you need to fix this, this is really important. Everybody need to deploy because open ssl was everywhere. Yeah, and this was a serious exploit, and finally, not last, but not least, the Sony hack. North Korean hack obstensively, in response to a movie called The Interview by Seth Rogan, attacked Sony and managed to break into their entire system and distribute all of their internal emails publicly. It was a hugely embarrassing for Sony, but you know, just a weird, weird this is what rogue states do now as they become they are hackers. Clearly North Korea was successful at the time, and that's what I got.

15:26Speaker 3:I have a count my time based on Marvel movies. Nice and so Guardians of the Galaxy and Captain America Winter Soldier probably my two favorite films. It was a really good year for films, and that Sony hack.

15:41Speaker 2:Guardian the Galaxy kind of came out of nowhere. Who expected that to be that much fun? No one, Yeah, no one at all.

15:47Speaker 3:And that Sony hack actually is what allowed Spider Man to be in Marvel movies because they'd gotten all this information about how they were trying to protect it they finally signed the deal.

15:59Speaker 2:And how badly Sony was treating the franchise, and so you're right, yeah, all of that comes so we've got to thank North Korea. What what do.

16:09Speaker 1:You acknowledged the act? Yeah? Yeah, all right, awesome. Well, I guess it's time for a better NO framework. So roll the Music is a very special, better know framework for me personally. As you know, A v next is the Shepherd, the guardian of the poly galaxy. See what I did there. Polly is the transient error handling library that's very popular. Microsoft has used it in the dot Net framework. It has over two billion downloads, just very very popular, and the guys that have been maintaining it have been doing it for free all this time. And we talked to Rob Mentioning about the open source maintenance. Yes, and we are going to implement that.

17:02Speaker 2:Wow.

17:02Speaker 1:It'll go into effect November sixteenth, twenty twenty six, roughly four months from the blog post that we are linking to in the show notes, and it talks about what it is. It's not very much and you have to be making some serious cash from using Polly to pay the fee, and I think most people will do it.

17:24Speaker 2:I hope so too. Yeah, it'll make it a lot easier to keep that thing up and give his nose. People depend on it.

17:29Speaker 1:That's right. And we may even be able to hire people to you know, whose full time job it is to handle incoming pull requests and stuff like that.

17:39Speaker 2:That'd be a good place to get to take that money and to put it get a full time maintainer.

17:43Speaker 1:Absolutely.

17:44Speaker 3:Yeah, it's very popular. I mean, I have a lot of my friends for Polly.

17:48Speaker 2:So oh, we get best wilder mouth today, Dewey, I'm delighted. This is my favorite wilder mooth.

17:57Speaker 1:All right. Well, anyway, that's it. It's the big announcement. You can go read the blog post.

18:00Speaker 2:Congratulations. You've been working towards us for a long time friend, so.

18:04Speaker 1:Well since since Rob planning the seed, you know, I've been thinking about it and talk to the guys about it, and we just said, yeah, this is a good thing.

18:12Speaker 2:But the conversation about making Polly as sustainable as possible, like that is important part because it is important.

18:18Speaker 1:It is yep. So that's when I got Richard, who's talking to us today.

18:22Speaker 2:Grabbed a comment off a show eighteen ninety eight, you know, back when we didn't talk about history for the first fifteen minutes of the show. This is the one we did with one Sean Wildernuth on being a senior software developer. Yeah, this is from twenty twenty four, so it's really interesting to think about that show in context of a two years later.

18:42Speaker 1:The subtitle for the show is three old guys trying to talk about dot too.

18:46Speaker 2:Well and LMS and just like we could see the industry was changing. And now, I mean, I'm kind of excited to get back together again two years later and dig into some of this stuff as well. Of course, that show elicited a ton of comments, many of which I've read already, But this one's from John Helgaeson, who says, I'm about to turn sixty two. This two years ago, so I guess hee sixty four.

19:07Speaker 1:Now.

19:08Speaker 2:I didn't become a developer until I was thirty seven. Now it was two years ago, so he was thirty nine. No, that's not how to work. So I've been cony for twenty five years. Software development was my third career. Before that, I was an X ray technician and a butcher, probably not at the same time, because they don't go together.

19:22Speaker 1:Campbell, where's this comedy coming from? I don't know.

19:25Speaker 2:Wildermiths kicked me off, man, I'm out of control. I can truly relate to being the odd man out in a team of younger developers. I still work on not being the boomer or the angry old man that shakes fist of the group, just trying to share some wisdom to the younger folkses. I haven't got the comfort of having a mentor early in my own career, And think, you know, we've talked before about just diversity in teams full stop, and so like age should hold you back, it's a powerful force too, just a different viewpoint and maybe different sets of empathy and compassion over things as well, right, but yeah, there's lots to learn. And again it's funny to think now two years on from that show, we started looking at the impacts of LMS, and like folks are concerned about junior developers, right, some senior developers are certainly just checking out, going now maybe it's time to retire.

20:15Speaker 2:And then some folks are all in and the ages are all over the map. So I don't think age is necessarily defining factor on that.

20:20Speaker 1:I turned one of my customers onto squad nice at my detriment because he was hiring me to do a project and I said, you know what, this might be the last project you hire me for. But now he's like totally all in and going gangbusters, and productivity through the roof, backlogs just drying up. It's great, It's awesome.

20:38Speaker 2:Yeah, so John, thank you so much for your comment. And a copy of music cod Buy is on its way to you. And if you'd like a copy of music code buy right a comment on the website at dot NetRocks dot com or on the facebooks. We publish every show there and if you comment there and I read it on the show, we'll send you a copy of music go buy.

20:51Speaker 1:And music to Code by dot net is the place where you can just go get it. It's almost twenty three maybe by now. It's twenty three tracks that are twenty five minutes long, scientifically designed to keep you in a state of flow while you're writing code. Got thousands of happy customers.

21:09Speaker 2:Awesome.

21:09Speaker 1:So yeah, all right, Sean, this is your bio, This is your life.

21:14Speaker 2:Nice.

21:14Speaker 1:Sean Wildermuth has been tinkering with computers and software since he got a VIC twenty back in the early eighties. As a Microsoft MVP since two thousand and three, he's also involved with Microsoft as an aspe neut insider and Client dev Insider. You may have taken one of his more than twenty courses on plural site. He's authored eight books and innumerable articles on software development. You can also see him at one of the local and international conferences he's regularly attending. He's one of the Wilder Minds. Wilder minds.

21:44Speaker 1:Wilder Is that Wilder mind? Is that your bridge group? What is that it is? I know it's my company, Yeah, yeah, I know. But what other minds are Wilder? Well, you don't have to say that nevermind? Yeah, yeah, you so many wild binds. You can reach him at his blog at Wildermuth dot com. He's released his first film, a feature length documentary about software developers today called Hello World. The film. You can see more about it at twainfilms dot com. This might be an old bio because I thought you did another movie. It is.

22:14Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, but in neither of the movies or in my new bio. Ah okay, I forgot about that.

22:19Speaker 2:Change, you know, reading a new bio.

22:22Speaker 3:But it has been like four years since my last film.

22:24Speaker 1:But twainfilms dot com, can people see your films? Is still a thing? Yeah?

22:28Speaker 3:Yeah, all right, good, all my films are there.

22:30Speaker 1:Well, welcome buddy, how you been thank you?

22:33Speaker 3:Ah good good. Just you know, changing your life every ten years in some drastic way is uh yeah, is always a challenge, you guys. There you do that talking about twenty fourteen, and that's when I, me and my new wife sold everything we owned and traveled.

22:51Speaker 1:For a year.

22:51Speaker 3:Yeah and so yeah, right, that was a very interesting year. And as it relates to nic Core on the road, is when I was doing all these courses based on the betas of dot net core as they went, you know, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen.

23:07Speaker 1:I remember how.

23:08Speaker 3:Many there were now, and so it was I didn't remember that they coincided so much. It just feels like that net core has been around forever.

23:18Speaker 1:Used to me.

23:18Speaker 2:Now it's just been life.

23:20Speaker 1:Twenty fourteen was the year, yeah, the year it started. Yeah.

23:23Speaker 2:You were also the one who would help HD box by moving us to the new builds. Oh right each time, because you were doing your own stuff, and so it's like the new build come out, It's like, okay, we have to redo all this.

23:34Speaker 1:Wait.

23:35Speaker 2:If I pointed at Sean, it'll be done in a weekend for everything.

23:39Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, Because I was not only was I updating like my blog and some of the other things like that, but I was updating the courses. I was updating the courses every like four months after a couple of revisions. So it was kind of a crazy time.

23:53Speaker 2:And I think you even just needed codebases to test against these migrations too.

23:57Speaker 1:Before we had Claude, we had Sean.

24:00Speaker 4:To say that, oh Claude, Yeah, oh Claude, it's been interesting.

24:10Speaker 2:Yeah. Can we take a just take a minute date think about you know, this on being a senior developer conversation from two years ago, because yeah, you know, it was part of it that almost sounded like maybe it's time for me to get out of this business, but clearly you have it.

24:21Speaker 3:Yeah, no, you know, I think part of me wanted is slowly sort of pulling back a little. I'm doing fewer conferences than I had been for a long time. And one of the reasons for the move to the Netherlands was to have a lower nut, have less money.

24:40Speaker 1:It had to go out and so I had to beg for work as much.

24:44Speaker 3:And that's been mostly true. You know, we moved to the Netherlands for a few reasons, but that one is really worked out and also being active. I live without a car now, right, and that was very specific so that I could lose weight and you know, after I was really really out of shape. You know, I've always been big, but I wasn't out of shape and big, and so that's been a huge, a huge benefit as well of moving here. So you know, I have one big customer, and I have the courses that I still do, and I'm not trying to figure out how to create a new multimillion dollar product anymore. I'm just you know, I'm comfortable on bringing enough money in and I can you know, watch baseball games at two in the morning without worrying about that. I'm not working every moment of the day and right, yeah, yeah.

25:34Speaker 2:But you're you're living and working within your means so to speak.

25:37Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, which I mean I think we I always did before, but it was just so easy to have to just want more and more and more. Luckily, I was never really in debt, but there were times when I was like, we were not putting anything into savings because we're just burning through this money for you know, not fun reasons, right. So that did allow me to to films, so I won't. I won't be too disparaged.

26:03Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah, So when you do write code or work with your customer, are you using AI to help?

26:11Speaker 3:I am. I've kind of finally found a sort of sweet spot in that I primarily use it for a replacement for file new in visual studio, so I tell it what I want off in the front end and the back end at the same time, and then after that I just really use it for like refactoring, or if it's something I just don't want to know, Like when I was building Azure scripts, I really don't want to be good at that, and so I just have a claud kick me out some Azure deployment scripts and I make some edits and you know, doing those things.

26:46Speaker 3:But it just made me a lot more productive, you know, if I.

26:49Speaker 2:Have that's a great triage, right What do I want in my head and what I don't want in my head?

26:54Speaker 3:It's crucial, you know. Or if I suddenly want you know, oh my god, mock doesn't work looking for me, so I want to switch to in substitute. Telling Claude to do that is you know, ten seconds of typing.

27:07Speaker 1:Funny you should mention Azure. I also am not a PowerShell or Azure expert command line. But I got an email that I'm sure you might have two to migrate your general purpose V one storage accounts to general purpose V two storage accounts by October thirteenth, right, And I literally pulled up Codex and said, hey, will you help me do this. I don't know the first thing about these scripts, and give me, you know, one one script, small script at a time so I can understand what it is, and let's go through it. And fifteen minutes later they're all upgraded. Yeah, nice, awesome, so much better.

27:45Speaker 3:Oh yeah, and sometimes I'll use it to build little internal apps, whether it's for a customer or for me. But like someone just wanted a dashboard of the version of the container on all his apps, and Azure them just build that in.

28:02Speaker 1:You know.

28:02Speaker 3:It took them maybe thirty minutes to build it, and I could go through and I could make changes if I needed to, but it was ninety nine percent there. I'm not sure I would trust the architecture of it in a big enterprise app that had to live for twenty years. But for that sort of thing, yeah, it's brilliant, brilliant.

28:20Speaker 1:Nice. My pattern is break it down into small steps, yeah, phases, and then in each phase a step and then one step at a time. I'm the guy who does the commits. Don't ever do any commits, but write me the commit message. You know, make sure it compiles, make sure it builds. Rather.

28:37Speaker 3:You know, someone talking about using the plan mode, which has a different name in Claude, but be able to sort of plan and she said, the key there is you're not wasting time to having them generate the code, and then you can ask them to back up their reasoning for doing X, Y or z, and then once you're convinced this is a good or bad reason. And often the M is just using information. You know, it has built on thousands of thousand things. Not everything was great.

29:09Speaker 3:Often they'll just change their mind and go, you know, now that I know that you already are using this instead of that you should be using that. And then at the end of the day you go, I'm going to go make coffee, so I'll press play.

29:23Speaker 1:To its job. Well, before we start talking to Sean about Aspire, let's take a little break. We'll be right back after these very important messages. Go ahead, Nam, and we're back.

29:35Speaker 2:It's dot n Rock. So I'm Richard Campbell. That's Carl Franklin talking about freend Shawn Wildermouth, and what are you thinking about Aspire? Because I'm hearing nothing but love these days. My goodness.

29:46Speaker 1:It's interesting because.

29:48Speaker 3:I thought when I started playing with it before sort of the first version went out, that it was a replacement for sort of deployment scripts and it was really only for these giant micro services architectures and stuff, right, And I got some in looking at and reading a lot of blogs, I felt suddenly realized that the magic here is for the developer, because developers don't or shouldn't be good at knowing how deployment works, like that's not their core job. They should understand it, of course, but being able to just say, I have these bunches of things, some of them are dot net, some of them are not dot net, and in that timeframe being able to go, oh, I can just start a sequel container and now I have a database and start up a retis container for this or that, startup you know, whatever it is that I need. Because now we're building systems with a lot of code that we don't own, and we don't need to necessarily know how all that works. We just need to be able to debug our code and be that whole experience of press F five and visual Studio or whatever way you're doing that, and the whole app deployees

31:03Speaker 3:and you can sort of see how they're related to each other and bringing in logs that are all commingled across those services, and then of course metrics and the traces at the same time, because it sort of made a lot of people buy into actually using metrics and traces in their applications where they were like, I checked the button that said application insights not all I need to do.

31:30Speaker 1:You know, John, when was the last time you got a customer to pay you to set up a CICD pipeline?

31:36Speaker 3:Actually three years ago?

31:38Speaker 1:Yeah, it's about about right for us too.

31:40Speaker 3:Yeah yeah yeah, or four years ago. Yeah, never want to do it again.

31:43Speaker 1:Now it's just just in there.

31:45Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah, it's like, you know what, I'm gonna give you this money back. I don't want to be responsible listening.

31:48Speaker 3:Anymore often if I'm using it, I'm not even going to use it for deployment, because there are some deployments that it doesn't necessarily work great for. But if I were you know, using Kubernetes or Cubernetes as I like to call it.

32:04Speaker 1:It's in a Midwestern dialect.

32:08Speaker 3:What is the if you've if any of the listeners have done this, what is the name of the app? The actual command line you use for it? You call it Cube's Cue, but then you call the app Kubernetes. What is going on?

32:22Speaker 1:What is that?

32:23Speaker 2:And heck even the conference is called cube con So.

32:26Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, then then your set because that's really doing it well. I have a customer who's more on the small side, and so we deploy a lot through app services instead of container services or one of those, and so deploying those separately without necessarily needing the Aspire piece to drive off that we've we've proved out how to deploy it, and then it's just a matter of we may be building it separately, or we may be using the stuff that's built in, but is it.

32:58Speaker 2:One of the strengths of Aspire makes you sort of fearless to try those different deployment mechanisms, And it's like, what would this app look like if we orchestrated through containers versus through it, you know, an app service layer.

33:08Speaker 1:I think it does.

33:11Speaker 3:You know, prevent you from worrying about the risk of it necessarily. But what I think it really does is encourages developers who are afraid of bringing in new dependencies right to go oh, all I have to do is say ad reddis or all I have to do is is, you know, say whatever the other dependency is that will help me in some way, you know, CP and caching or whatever, without you having to learn the entire status right being go oh, I can just use this as a service.

33:39Speaker 2:I mean, I feel like you're poking at this aspect of you put your architects hat on and so we should probably use that a service for that, and it's probably reddis And then your engineer goes, that's six days, six hours worth. They're reading, do I have time for that? I'll work around it this way instead. And now it's not yeah.

33:57Speaker 3:Well there's that whole movement about buy er just build that the well that's embarrassing.

34:04Speaker 1:I don't remember his name.

34:05Speaker 2:Suddenly, are you thinking about Dylan Medy did this show on it? But I think you're also talking about Udi de Han.

34:09Speaker 1:Yea de Han. Use what's there or whatever? Use what's there? Use what works? Use it works.

34:14Speaker 3:Yeah, Yeah, And I think this really encourages that idea because it just lowers the barrier of entry. And I think it slides into the AI talk pretty well because we're becoming more architects and less developers.

34:29Speaker 2:Sure, but even the architectural conversation with the l M, the LM is going to be very quick to suggest the mainstream, you know, tools of all of these things. Absolutely that the engineering you may or may not know much about.

34:42Speaker 3:It gives you an opportunity to get your feet wet without having to commit and sure able to you know, take it out of your pipeline.

34:48Speaker 2:I keep thinking of aspirous scaffolding right in this idea that I can just sort of point to Aspire and go, what if we put retis into this, what would that look like? And you know, hook those pieces up, throw it on a branch, build it out, run for a bit. You know.

35:01Speaker 1:Okay, you know it's even better using claud or Copilot or squad or whatever you do when you build your app. Haven't built it with Aspire. So you have yet another top, you know, another layer of abstraction that it can do easily, just as easily as you can. But there you go.

35:20Speaker 3:Yeah, for me, the magic sauce was less you know, adding the pieces and more the configuration.

35:26Speaker 1:Yeah.

35:27Speaker 3:So the idea of the Aspire goes, I know, how to pass configuration from one of these pieces to the other, or give you a connection string for the sequel server that isn't up yet, and then give you a way to connect to a service bus even though you don't haven't created it yet. Like, all of that is what I think of as the as the sand in the gears of using it, you know, without something like a spire, right, And what's happened in the last year has been very fascinating to me. Maybe it's been more than half a year.

35:57Speaker 3:They released the Aspire CLI, which was really trying to decouple it from visual studio of a studio code as much though obviously they work in both those the.

36:06Speaker 2:Parts well, and even just to couple it from dot net full stop, which I don't disagree with, right, Like it makes sense. This is really about scaffolding for good cloud architecture than it is for any given development platform.

36:19Speaker 3:And selling more Azure but yeah, but being able to like have a Python or a typescript Aspire container basically and run your apps that have nothing to do with dot net now.

36:35Speaker 1:It's just it was really.

36:37Speaker 3:A smart way to go because with the typeescript, you're just bringing in all of the Node people, all of the React and next and next people, and then the Python you're bringing all the people that are thinking about, you know, setting up data systems because there's still so much of that work that's being done with Python, yeah, or even some of the AI stuff. So I think it's going to be interesting how much that is actually picked up because we have that continuous But it's Microsoft problem.

37:14Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I wish it wasn't still, but it's Microsoft. But it is so for me.

37:20Speaker 3:It aspires often the thing that you get clawed or one developer to set up, and you don't have to have the whole team understand how it all works. So instead of necessarily testing in isolation and hoping integration works, you get integration from the start, right because you already have these pieces that are integrated and the developers don't really need to think about it. Oh, I'm going to get my configuration from you know, app configuration and Azure.

37:47Speaker 3:I'm just getting configured stuff, and as the developer that's working on the page or the API or whatever it is. You don't have to worry about all of that other stuff. And for me, it's it's that maturation. When I started, you had to worry about CPU registers, and then later you had to worry about memory, and then later you had to worry about maintaining the OS that was under it. And so we keep on moving up that stack, and now we're at the point where we're getting to the point where I can still just focus on the code that's valuable business logic or whatever it is, based on the kind of products you're creating without having to worry as much about all of the other stuff. And if you think about how a spire can allow you to say, the architecture may be complex, but we can still have developers do the hard work of figuring out how to solve problems instead of figuring out how to set up machines.

38:43Speaker 2:Well orse any member of these services as well.

38:46Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

38:49Speaker 2:Really you're poking the right spot on this. We were moving up the stack again. I don't want to think about how I can figure reddis I don't want to think about how I set up that container correctly. It should just happen.

39:00Speaker 3:Yeah, and it married to sort of AI code development as well. They're I think that they're a really good marriage because they're both trying to get the routine thing out of your way so you can actually do the thing you want. Yeah, you know, I'll tell you. The first year that I had access to like copilot, all I used it was for regular expression. It took me a while to sort of that's legit, get my the trust it enough to go, Okay, maybe it can do this. Oh, maybe it can do this.

39:33Speaker 1:Yeah, you have the faster horses.

39:35Speaker 2:Give it a little more, give it a little more room.

39:38Speaker 3:It's still slower than I would like, but with the magic it's doing, it's a really bad complaint to have, you know what I mean? Well, take a junior developer four weeks to do this.

39:48Speaker 2:You're doing magic, but can you do it faster?

39:51Speaker 1:Yeah?

39:51Speaker 3:Why is it taking fifteen minutes ins out of four weeks?

39:54Speaker 1:Yeah?

39:56Speaker 2:What was that old bit? You're in a chair in the sky. Can you wait just a minute, it's going to space.

40:02Speaker 1:I didn't get your text you had to go to space.

40:08Speaker 3:There's an old David Letterman with with one of the early scientists. I can't think of her name No, No, one of the early computer science pioneers. And she was explaining how she would have these little pieces of wire to explain to the military that we can only go to speed of light. Each one of these is a millisecond. You can't go any faster than that. So when you want to bounce things off of satellite, that darn speed limit of the speed of light is still still a problem.

40:46Speaker 2:Yeah, elon, I've had the darn speed a light.

40:49Speaker 1:I've had a few conversations with people who didn't understand the speed of light.

40:53Speaker 2:Yeah.

40:53Speaker 3:Yeah, that's why I don't think data centers will ever be in space. There's so many things like super hard to cool, and then and the whole problem of latency.

41:04Speaker 1:Oh, he did a whole thing on that, Richard did a we did an entire geeko.

41:08Speaker 2:Yeah, and yeah, just as a reminder that lasers through space don't have nice tubes of glass to reflect off of, so they just keep getting bigger.

41:17Speaker 1:Yep, just like a flashlight in your backyard.

41:21Speaker 2:Yeah, a little more focused than that, but yes.

41:23Speaker 3:But yes, yeah, less we're going to you know, create space elevators with fiber optic cables, so it still won't be much faster.

41:33Speaker 2:No, because ninety thousand kilometers of fiber optic cable also has problems.

41:39Speaker 1:So I got a scenario for you, Sean, Sure, Let's say your fifteen year old nephew. I don't know if you have one or fifteen? Who cares? I do? I mean, he's thirty, but yeah, I understand close. Well, let's say when he was fifteen. Well, let's say he's fifteen right now, and he comes to you and he says, Sean, I want to learn how to program. What do you say? What are you nuts?

41:59Speaker 3:I tell him it's a dead industry and I know how to get out of it.

42:03Speaker 1:No, No, No, seriously serious?

42:05Speaker 2:What you do?

42:06Speaker 1:Seriously? Yeah?

42:08Speaker 3:What I Because this happens to me sometimes with people in bars. When they find out what I do, they're like, oh, I've really been interested in coding and all of that, with the boot camp problem that we had like the last ten years, too many junior developers and all that. But what I would often tell them is something I learned when I did the film about sort of inclusion. I tell them to start with Python and not you, and I wouldn't use an l LM at first because I want you to get comfortable with what code does and can do. And Python isn't a language I enjoy at all, But there's no ceremony, right, You just write code and I executes it in that order. Right, So unlike Java and c sharp before top level statements and those sorts of things a script even, yeah, and job a script and everything that that means, those are just hard because you need all these other contexts.

43:08Speaker 1:Right.

43:08Speaker 3:So if you want to, you know, make a a D and D character creator, or you want to have something that plays random music, you can do that in five to ten lines of Python. And the trick for me isn't that they're going to learn something magical there. I want them to get the bug. Yeah, it's the bug that's important, right, because if they don't get that high that I get every time I solve a tough problem, it might not be for you.

43:35Speaker 1:I did. I had a I think I might have told the story at one point, but I had an intern at pop studios through the high school and he wanted to He did electronic music. He wanted to learn the studio and he wanted to work in a studio. And I said, yeah, come on, I'll show you and then I don't know. About halfway through the internship, I said, look, I got to level with you. Studios are dead. Like you know, there's there's a there's a million experienced engineers out there and about three studios, So you're not going to be able to find I'm just telling you right now.

44:13Speaker 1:The reality is they're all closed. Even the artists are doing recordings in their basement, you know.

44:19Speaker 2:And but every musician and engineer. Yeah.

44:23Speaker 1:But he had the mind of a developer, and I was like, you ever thought about software? And this was years ago, he said, I don't know, I never tried it. So I basically got a Unity demo, Unity for you know, developing games and stuff. So I downloaded Unity and they had a thing that you could go through. It took about four hours, and they basically gave you all of the stuff that you needed to create a side shooter like a Space Invaders game, right, And I said, just sit here, you're gonna do this for four hours, go through it. And that gave him the bug because it was instant gratification or just little copy and pasting see sharp clips, you know in their little things for firing and detection and all that stuff and he loved it and he actually got a job right after that. Oh no, that's right. We had we had an advertiser that was like a boot camp, you know, for developers, and I said, hey, if I gave you, you know, twelve ads, would you take an exchange an entry into your boot camp? And they said sure. I sent this kid to the boot camp and he his career just took off. It's the bug, it's getting him hooked. Do you have the itch Yeah?

45:44Speaker 1:I gave him the itchy and he felt like he could do anything. I mean he was a cocky little bastard anyway, but still he had the confidence to do it. But he got him hooked.

45:53Speaker 2:Because I wonder if somebody really comes at you says I want to be a programmer, other than they've looked into it for a while, this might be the job. Most people just want to make something or mostly want to make a game, because you could also sit them in front of a prompt and start working through it that way too.

46:09Speaker 1:Yeah.

46:09Speaker 2:Right, that's the emergent methodology. And certainly they're going to get themselves in trouble because they don't know certain things. But that's true with development tools too. Right, So you know, it's just a question of what's the current of what's the emerging approach a year you know, right now we're still wondering. A year from now, we may not wonder anymore, right.

46:27Speaker 3:Yeah, it's an interesting thing for me because the thing that got me into software wasn't I thought there was any money in it or any of those sorts of things. In fact, I really tried not to be a software developer because it was too geeky and it was embarrassing to tell potential dates what I did for a living.

46:47Speaker 1:You're also a musician, so that fits right in with it, does it?

46:51Speaker 2:Does?

46:53Speaker 3:You and I are not the same level of musician, though.

46:57Speaker 1:I know you you're so much better better than I am, not at all look up to you so much.

47:02Speaker 3:In my life, I didn't have a lot of control over a lot of things, and that was I think most kids go through that where they're like they're they're frustrated by the amount of like limitations they're given. And this time when you're learning and all this stuff right and just being able to make you know, something show up on a TV screen because I typed some certain things into a keyboard. That's the thing that went, oh, I'm able to make change, for lack of a better word, in a way that I never thought was possible before that. Right, And I know it's just code, and that may seem a little lofty, but that really was the effect on it.

47:39Speaker 3:I had something that I could that I could create with that wasn't you know, painting or other things that I knew I was bad at.

47:49Speaker 1:I had a theory long ago, and I probably told this twenty years ago on the show, but that men in particular, some may get it, may have gotten into programming because is you can not just create, but create an intelligence, like create almost like a life form that has a lifespan and lives and inputs and outputs and stuff like that. Because we can't have babies, so you know, we've always been jealous of women who can like go through this miraculous process like, wow, that's magic. You know.

48:22Speaker 1:The best I can do is right as a piece of software. But it's good enough. Exactly.

48:30Speaker 3:I have told people I'm in my two hundred and fortieth trimester.

48:34Speaker 4:Though that's great, that's not right, it's not, yeah, but yet it is.

48:46Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.

48:47Speaker 2:The creation thing I think is an important part of the equation and it kind of doesn't matter what the tools are, you just want to create.

48:52Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. At Harvey Mutt College they were able to increase women in technology not only move to Python, but their like first experience was a music maker.

49:04Speaker 1:They had a little.

49:05Speaker 3:Library that would allow them to do midi tones and so it wasn't like, oh, you're going to create a form and going to collect data, and it was just like, do you want to be able to make these like random sounds come out of a machine?

49:18Speaker 1:And they went.

49:19Speaker 3:From twenty percent to forty nine percent women in the span of I think four and a half years, just because they changed the.

49:26Speaker 2:Potentially point of what do you create? What's the appealing thing that makes you go first? And I immediately deflected the games because that's the one I hear the most often. But it's the same kind of thing. Yeah, music, robotics, like all of these different mechanisms that are appealing.

49:41Speaker 3:And you have to find you know. I agree with what was said earlier that making something like figuring out what it is, you know. I years ago, when I finally got a Commed sixty four, I upgraded.

49:57Speaker 1:I was able to.

49:59Speaker 3:I just made it thing for to catalog my albums, you know when when they were vinyl or eight tracks.

50:06Speaker 2:Yeah.

50:07Speaker 1:Yeah. First thing I wrote was a mad libs program and basic because that I learned about variables, input, and print and that was enough and I said, what can I do with that? Ah, mad libs. If you don't know what those are, look it up? You should? You should, you should. There's still fun after all these years.

50:23Speaker 3:The thing that programming made really bad, it's gonna One last story was when I was programming pretty young and then I took algebra, and algebra made no sense to me because all I could think of was, well X is a variable? What's in there? Like I was just my mind had been set in programming that. It really, it really was a battle for me to undo that so I could learn a certain maths because I just thought, well X always has a value, which is you know, you're trying to figure it out and all that other stuff.

50:52Speaker 3:It's it does, I think, change your brain.

50:55Speaker 1:I struggled with trigonometry through end of high school beginning college. I had to take it a couple of times just because I got so far in and then it started going loopy on me on my brain but I found that there was a visualizer and animated visualizer of three D trigonometry online and I found that in boom it clicked. Yeah. Yeah, it's so interesting how that worked. And I yeah, And as far as algebra goes, I use ratios all the time to scale up things and scale them down. I mean, it's it's just the way it works. And I remember thinking, like everybody in algebra class, when am I ever going to use this stuff? Well, guess what, that's life.

51:38Speaker 3:Well, we can't use a calculator in class. What do we think We're going to have a calculator in our pocket the rest of our lives.

51:45Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, yeah, this fun. So it's on your short list, man.

51:54Speaker 3:On my short list?

51:56Speaker 1:Yeah. Just traveling more.

51:58Speaker 3:Uh, The idea of being over here and I just take a day trip and see somewhere completely new has been really exciting. I'm coming back to the States so I can see family and friends, sort of regroup Atlanta, Atlanta. Yeah cool. And yeah, I'm just trying to live life. That's that's about it.

52:17Speaker 1:Go to a Kroger's, got to murder Kroger and chicken.

52:21Speaker 2:Buy BUCkies.

52:23Speaker 1:Oh BUCkies, I don't think you've seen buck When was the last time you were in the.

52:27Speaker 3:States year and a half, I've seen a BUCkies.

52:30Speaker 1:You've seen BUCkies. Okay, yeah, they've been around for in the South, they've been.

52:33Speaker 2:Around for big during World Cup, My goodness.

52:36Speaker 3:Yeah, I've been watching a lot of the World Cup. And then it's interesting because I've never been into soccer, but I got really excited about you know, I had teams I could root for, and then like the last five games, I remembered how how bad FIFA is at cheating, and I've just lost all my enthusiasm for it now that yeah, you know.

53:01Speaker 1:Yeah, it's funny how that works. Tim Huckabee set talked about, you know, how these guys could win an Academy Award for demonstrating pain that doesn't exist. He's like, oh, here we go, here comes the acting.

53:15Speaker 3:Uh huh, it's my favorite. You know, I've blown out my knee, right Oh wait, wait wait what okay, I'll get back on them.

53:26Speaker 1:Yeah he tripped me foul.

53:28Speaker 3:Oh wow, yeah, arm Well, Lebron does the same thing, right, what's that? Lebron does the same thing right?

53:35Speaker 1:Oh well, okay, all right, I know that's true, but Okay, look at hate mail here comes to hate mail.

53:41Speaker 2:Nice.

53:42Speaker 1:Well, Sean, maybe we should get together something when you get over here in the States, and if we don't see each other, happy travels. Well, thank you so much.

53:51Speaker 3:And maybe next time you do a conference over here, whether I'm speaking or not, and to go take a quick train ride and meet you guys.

54:01Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll figured it out. Sounds good, that'd be great.

54:03Speaker 3:I've found memories of Sweden in that little bar.

54:06Speaker 1:Oh yeah, oh yeah, that was the the Green Green Something. What was it in Malmo? Yeah, green Frog.

54:17Speaker 2:There was a Bishop Arms and there was the Green Green Something.

54:22Speaker 1:But Richard sat up flights of set up flights of Scotch for us to try and gave us something to such tasks. Gave us a lesson. All right, Sean, thanks a lot. It's been great talking to you. Awesome, and we'll talk to you next.

54:35Speaker 5:Time on dot net rocks.

54:58Speaker 6:Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our website at d O T N E t R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going back to show number one, recorded in September two.

55:28Speaker 1:Thousand and two.

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55:36Speaker 1:You got jam bands

55:40Speaker 2:And