DNSimple CLI with Anthony Eden

0:01Speaker 1:How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You get access to a private RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, we'll get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign up now at patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, and welcome back to dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin and Amateurd Capbell, and Anthony Eden is here with us. We'll include him in the intro bits.

0:43Speaker 1:But I'm sure you're gonna like what he has to say. But first, mister Campbell, how are you.

0:49Speaker 2:I'm good man. It's good to be home for a few weeks. You know, it's hard to be unhappy. This is a lovely place to be in the summertime. Yeah.

0:56Speaker 1:I'm actually in Brooklyn, New York, visiting the fam. Nice and going to a deli for lunch. Yeah, the grand baby going to kats Is Delhi for lunch.

1:06Speaker 2:Nice. Yeah.

1:07Speaker 1:Right after this, all about the pastromi, All about the pastrami. This is episode two thousand and eight, So I'm going to start with the you know, significant stories of that year. The big one is the global financial crisis.

1:23Speaker 2:Yeah. I pulled together a timeline on this. Okay, you want to hear it. Yeah, sure. So in January there's a fifteen percent stock declining on the world market side, which was weird because it seemed to come out of nowhere. Later we'd find out that, you know, the US is already in recession as of December two thousand and seven, but at the time it was kind of a surprise. And then March gold hits a thousand dollars an ounce for the first time ever. And then we start getting the recession calls, and Denmark is sort of the first to cough up and go, I think we're actually in recession.

1:55Speaker 2:Olds Minor. The big news in the US before we really get going on this thing is when suddenly the US government, this is the Bush administration, takes control of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack because all of these subprime mortgages are starting to implode. And then Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley convert themselves. They stop being independent investment banks and become bank holding companies. It's really a way of limiting liability, but that really kicks off the storm because then Lehman Brothers goes down, Washington Mutual goes down the Dow and drops seven hundred and seventy seven points, the largest single day point loss ever. And then by October Bush signs the seven hundred billion dollar bailoup bill, the UK kicks sixty four billion into UK banks to stop their collapse. Then Bloody Friday, which is another ten percent market decline worldwide, the IMF kicks a billion and a half dollars over to Iceland to stop their banks from going down. And then by November the Eurozone as a whole is in recession for the first time since nineteen ninety nine, and the Dawn it's its lowest level since

3:00Speaker 2:the nineties.

3:02Speaker 1:So if you want a couple of media plays that really explain what happened, the big Short, of course, Phenomenal Film is a great movie.

3:13Speaker 2:Very good, very good movie. Yeah.

3:16Speaker 1:And also this American Life podcast and PBS or NBR show did an episode called the Giant Pool of Money, which basically said, you know all these investors were putting pressure, Well, they're always looking for places to put to hold money, right, and so the subprime mortgages answered the call and so it just everybody rushed in to buy these things which were based on nothing, and hilarity ensued. Also, the guys who did that episode of This American Life started another podcast called Planet Money, and it's a really good one if you want to just.

4:00Speaker 2:Was it out of the subprime crisis? Is that what got me to do that show? That's really interesting?

4:04Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I didn't know that was the origin of it. That's that's pretty awesome. It makes total sense, it does.

4:09Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Well. Also, you know what else starts this year pretty much for exactly the same reason. What's that bitcoin? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and the fall in the fall of two thousand and eight is when the pseudonym Natoshi Nakamoto publishes the bitcoin paper ticks that hole. Would it have happened without this this subcrime, this sort of crisis of banking as a whole, this you know, illusion of the we're bursting, the illusion of how finance actually works. But yeah, it's all in the same year.

4:37Speaker 1:Good question. Yeah. Also, in two thousand and eight, Barack Obama is elected, Yeah, the first African American president of the United States, and that I thought started a really good recovery period for America, Russia and Georgia went to war.

4:55Speaker 2:Yeah, the Russia of Georgian War, which self Osentia is the area it's a quote unquote Breakeray region. Now, to be clear, the Russians had been funding a set of dissenters in Georgia for some time, that in Advocasia as well, and this finally lit off into this little five day skirmish so to speak. Before it Ceasfars negotiated through France, although by the end of August Russia will just declare them their own countries, which is ridiculous. But you know, if you're wondering about the behavior of Ukraine, like this had been going on for some time, and this was an example of it because Georgia had become more and more EU friendly, you know, they were leaning towards we want those the same thing the Baltic States have gotten, you know, more countries that this is the year that like Malta joins the EU and so forth. So this scared the snot out of Russia and this is how they stop this. So you look at regions like you know, Southeast Centia, but also Transnistria and Moldova, they're all following the same format, which is that Russia funds dissenters to create breakaway states, no knowing that one of the NATO

6:01Speaker 2:rules is you can't have a border conflict before you join NATO. Yeah.

6:07Speaker 1:Also the Beijing Olympics two thousand and eight Summer Olympics in Michael Felping, Michael Phelps, Usain Bolt were the darlings of that of that contest in Mumbai, there were some terrorist attacks that were pretty bad in November, more than one hundred and sixty people killed. India and Pakistan obviously have been at each other's throats for a while, but now Iowa and Midwest flooding, severe flooding in the United States, large portions of the US Midwest. Kosovo declared independence from Serbia in February. Also interesting stuff going on there. In China, there was an earthquake disaster, terrible Sichuan earthquake, seventy thousand people or so and left millions homeless. The seventy thousand people were killed, deadliest natural disaster of the decade. Of course, you know, the financial crisis prompted sharp increases in food and fuel prices, and that was across many countries. Yeah, and concerns about inflation and global supply chains became major issues. Yeah, and of course Israel and Hamas that conflict escalated, culminating in the launch of Operation cast Lead in December or

7:34Speaker 1:is it cast Lead, I can't remember, but yeah, so, yeah, bad year. A lot of economic woes that would later continue arguably are still echoing today. Absolutely.

7:50Speaker 2:Yeah. Do you want some science news?

7:51Speaker 1:Yeah? What about science and space and tech?

7:54Speaker 2:September is when CERN powers up the large Hadron clouded for the first time. They'll do their first collisions in two thousand nine in the pursuit of the Higgs boson. On the space side, we have some awesome activity in deep space. This is when the Messenger spacecraft makes a couple of fly bys of Mercury for the first time since the seventies, both in January and in October. Out at Saturn, Cassini is doing multiple flybys of both Titan and in sedleists. And remember, and this is Rob Connery's fault because he wrote a book around this accidentally, was is really a data analytics book, The first Images of Encetalists.

8:36Speaker 2:They caught a cryo volcano just by luck. Nobody knew that in setlist was active, it was considered an iceball. It couldn't have been interesting, too small, and yet here was this image of a cryovolcano in its first test photo. They just got lucky and literally rewrote the Cassini mission to focus on it setlists, and in two thousand and eight they will fly within twenty five kilometers of the surface of it. Settleist. Not the easiest fly by they'll do.

9:01Speaker 2:They'll do those, some of those later, but very very close and really blew up with this idea of the Goldilock zone for where life could exist on ound other bodies. Yeah, they're steeped in heavy radiation, but underneath that ball of ice there's liquid ocean that's salty and active and warm. So exciting times, pretty amazing. On the International Space Station side, we have four missions by the Shuttle February, March, May and November, all building up different equipment. The Columbus module, which is the European laboratory, the two Japanese modules, both the pressurized section and the Kibo module, which is a sort of porch for doing vacuum experiments, and plenty of resupply, crew supply and things like that. India does their first mission to the Moon, Chendra one. We'll launch in October and reach the Moon in November, successfully putting making only the fourth nation to have gone in orbit around the Moon, after Russia or after US, Soviet Union and China. Then there's SpaceX, the third and fourth and final flight of Falcon one. Falcon the third flight in August, this flying with the Merlin one C single engine, worked perfectly right

10:21Speaker 2:up until stage separation. There was enough residual energy coming from the lower stage that at stage separation the boost the first stage booster bumped back into the second stage, damaging it so that it's not able to go into orbit. SpaceX realizes is just a timing issue and literally just delays the separation a bit longer, so that a month later in September, they do a flight that actually fully goes into orbit, the first time a commercial company will put any kind of payload to orbit successfully. It was the fourth flight. It's the point at which so supposedly Elon was totally out of money. This was it or they were going to fail. That being said, later that year, in December, they'll get a billion and a half dollars from NASA for the for the commercial resupply of the space station and staff up to about five hundred employees.

11:10Speaker 2:They'll skip making Falcon five, which was a five engine version of the Merlin, and go directly to the Falcon nine, which will take a little while to get built. In September the Rosetta mission, another deep space mission. This is the asteroid mission they're going to. This is the year that they make an eight hundred klimeter fly by of the asteroid Steins, and then in twenty ten they'll reach Lutilla, which is the as Main Belt asteroid for the first time ever. All right in computing. In January, get our first public draft of HTML five. Yeah, so you know that's it's still still years away from being really implemented, but this was, you know, everybody's waiting on this thing.

11:49Speaker 2:Essentially in February, Vista SP one and the sort of commercial release of Vista. They had put out the initial versions in November of two thousand and seven, but that was only the enterprise edition. It was also the no enterprise would touch an SP zero version of anything, so the fact that was full of bugs was not a big deal. But of course all the reviewers did install it, find all the bugs and talk about them. So by February nobody wants Vista. Server two thousand and eight's also released the same time. This is also year we get dot net Framework three five one, which fixes a bunch of WPF problems that were found because of the development of silver Light. Yeah. So October the PDC two thousand and eight we get silver Light two, which is the first version of Silverlight that supports the dot net framework.

12:37Speaker 2:Of course, that's dot net Framework three, the interim version that was made to pick up the fallout from Vista. But a reminder that that was also a version that ran a kind of the clr A runtime on the Mac, although only the Intel version of the Mac raitional silver Light one release, which didn't have any dot Net and it ran on the power Pc version of the Mac, which of course was also being based out. Remember the PDC two thousand and eight, and I think you do because we were there together. That was the one where they had the community sessions where people could submit session ideas and the community would vote on them, and the number one most voted for session was Miguel Diakazan Mono and Microsoft wasn't willing to do it, so they turned pulled it out, turned it down, and Miguel came anyway, just bought a ticket like a regular person. We just followed around, were by a lot of people. Yeah, but that was also that was an interesting time. That was an interesting time indeed. And that's also the PDC where Ray Ozzie announced Windows Azure. Because this is also the year the Gates steps down even as chairman of Microsoft,

13:45Speaker 2:to go full time on the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. A couple other notable starts in two thousand and eight. This is the year that Google Market stands up. You now know it is Google Play, this is Android and the response to the app store from Iphie for the previous year. And also the year that GitHub starts with its tagline social coding. You know, there have been plenty of other code repositories out there, but this one had the social media element as well. Right, Also the year Airbnb is founded and the year that stack Overflow goes live.

14:18Speaker 1:Airbnb was founded by two guys from Rhode Island School of Design, And when I went to Emmy's graduation there because she gt my daughter's graduated with industrial design degree.

14:29Speaker 2:They were the.

14:30Speaker 1:Keynote speakers interesting. How cool is that?

14:33Speaker 2:That's pretty cool.

14:33Speaker 1:Yeah, one more thing I want to add. In two thousand and eight, I was approximately one hundred pounds heavier than I am now, in which I lost that with the ketogenic diet. Well back back then I called it the beef and bourbon diet. I didn't really know the science, but I knew it worked.

14:55Speaker 2:That's what I got.

14:56Speaker 1:I guess the time then for Betano framework role music awesome?

15:06Speaker 2:All right, man, what do you got?

15:07Speaker 1:Okay? So I think it was episode nineteen eighty five or something like that where the Better Know a framework was a tool from Simon Crop called dB to Mermaid, which you could get a Mermaid chart of a just by pointing it to a database. Well, now he's got something a little more low level called Naiad Naiad which renders Mermaid diagrams to SVG entirely in your browser, no server round trip. Simon Crop, I don't know if you know him, Anthony, but he's an Aussie and he's very prolific and has built so many tools that he's become agular.

16:00Speaker 1:I'd better know a framework and this is just the latest.

16:04Speaker 4:So the name sounds failure, very very familiar.

16:07Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not the first time we've mentioned him on Donna Rock's Goodness Knows, oh good No.

16:12Speaker 1:So anyway, check out Naiad if you're interested in Mermaid. I love Mermaid, and you can make these beautiful flow charts. Yeah, and this is just another way to render.

16:22Speaker 2:That Niads were the nymphs of the fountains in Greek mythology. Of course, of course it is. That's awesome. Yeah.

16:29Speaker 3:I was going to say, I was looking for how to find this thing, and it's the best place to go really is on GitHub.

16:36Speaker 4:It looks like, and search for it. Yeah, because it's right there.

16:39Speaker 1:And that was the voice of Anthony Eden. So that's what I got. Richard, who's talking to.

16:44Speaker 2:Us, Grady comment off a show two thousand and seven. That's the one we did last week, the data centers in space geek out. Yeah, because why we shouldn't have a geek out in the middle of the middle of the year. Why not, it's the longest day of the year. What the heck have a geekout. Good fun in that talk. But I had a comment from Matt who said, I love your podcast as always, but I don't know how much you came out one hundred square miles to get one gig go out of solar power. That seems to be off by a couple of orders of magnitude. She abilitived that under two square miles. I haven't gone back and listened to the show to think, did I say that because that doesn't sound like I would say that because it's not correct. Matt is right about two square miles at twenty five percent efficiency should be sufficient. So I'm not sure exactly what I would say on the show. Typically, on the ground you'd go more than that, just because you have capacity factors, you know, clouds, things like that that affect the amount of power you're going to get from the solar panel in the first place. So I'm thinking of square kilometers a little, but so five square

17:37Speaker 2:kilometers is a minimum, But often if you're going after a gig gial, do ten go. We did at the end of the show talk about building solar power and geostation in orbit, which was a previous geek out. And while you'll tend to use the more expensive solar panels that are close to thirty percent yield, and you're probably going to do concentration as well with mirrors and so forth and rather than just to all solar panels, so the math gets a little bit weirder. You also have to deal with conversion losses converting power from the electrical you get from your solo will take sales, and then you turn them into microwaves to them beam them through the atmosphere and you're going to get some attenuation there, about fifteen percent, and then convert those microwaves back into electrical.

18:15Speaker 2:So it's a bunch of losses. So you'll probably lay up much more on that. But no, one hundred square cometers, that's crazy. It's still a lot of area. You don't need that much. Sometimes we misspeak, yeah, and things happen or things get misheard. I'm not emotional about it, so like it's good to just get the numbers out there. I just double checked all the numbers. That's what was in my notes. Maybe I said it wrong, all right, Well, so Matt, thank you so much your comment, and a copy of music Coba is on its way to you.

18:40Speaker 2:And if you'd like a copy of music gobay right a comment on the website at dot NetRocks dot com or on the facebooks. We publish every show there. And if you comment there and then reading the show. We'll send you copy of music GOBA.

18:48Speaker 1:And if you don't want to wait for that, you can just go to music to Code by dot net and you can get it in MP three, wave and flak formats. There's twenty two tracks. They're twenty five minutes each and they're designed to keep you in a state of flow while you're writing code. Many, many, many happy customers. Okay, let's bring on Anthony. Anthony Eden is the founder of d N Simple and the proprietor of numerous open source projects. He's also contributed to a wide variety of the open source projects over the past twenty plus years as a software developer using multiple languages including Java, Python, Ruby, Closure, Go, and Erlang. Slacker Right, I think, yeah, ye, we have a great history with Anthony, going back to a road trip that where we.

19:40Speaker 2:Got a is such a hilarious story too.

19:42Speaker 1:It's a great story. I got to tell it every time you come on. We got an email from somebody at a company that I won't mention by name, but it rhymes with slow Patty, and they wanted to know if they could advertise on our show. And I said, hey, Richard, these guys want to advertise, and Richard says, well, we.

19:59Speaker 2:Don't like that, but I think I said something a lot of lines of it, but they suck.

20:04Speaker 1:Yeah, but we do like DN Simple and we had just been turned.

20:08Speaker 2:Well you said, you said you suggested that. You said, well, who do we like? And I'm like, I think these guys are awesome.

20:14Speaker 1:Well, Scott Hansoman. Scott Hansman introduced me to DAN Simple and it was love at first click.

20:20Speaker 2:Yeah.

20:21Speaker 1:So it's a DNS management tool and domain management tool.

20:26Speaker 2:Well, and I think you again, you just went straight at it. You found their email and you emailed them and said this is what's happened. We think you should be on our show. And as I recall, Anthony's response was interesting, tell me more.

20:39Speaker 4:That's right, sounds right.

20:42Speaker 2:It was a different kind of pitch, wasn't it.

20:45Speaker 4:Yeah.

20:46Speaker 1:So we have had you on to talk about the d N Simple apia and now talk about go Yeah, and now you've got the DN Simple c l I command line interface. So the floor is, sir, what is this all about?

21:01Speaker 3:Well, I mean it's it's so it's something that we've tried off and on a couple times since the inception of the and Simple. In fact, the very first sort of public presentation I did of the and Simple was at a Ruby comp where I did a five minute lightning talk showing how to register a domain name from the CLI, and that was with a Ruby CLI and it really kind of kicked off sort.

21:24Speaker 4:Of the the.

21:26Speaker 3:Direction that we were going with Dan Simple, really wanting to build tools for developers, for engineers who were who liked to live in the command line, which would really a lot of us do that regularly. There was kind of a slowdown over the last few years, but within the last twelve to eighteen months, CLIs have really started coming back as being an important part of the toolkit for all the different environments that you work with.

21:56Speaker 4:And we'll get to that.

21:56Speaker 3:I think everybody knows the answer as to why they're really important. Sure, But so we went back and looked again and we didn't have one for a little while. We had tried. We had the one in Ruby, we shut that down. We had one that we tried in ALICKXIR, we shut that down. And this time around where you did it and go and it kind of stuck more.

22:15Speaker 2:And I think.

22:17Speaker 3:Now we were at the point where we felt okay, the APIs stable, the tooling around CLIs is becoming more and more important for the work that folks are doing, so it's time to put one together and launch it. And thus we did. Just a few weeks back we started. I guess it was over a month now that we launched the first version of it, and then we've been iterating on it fairly quickly to make it easier to use. And it works just like any traditional CLI. You know, you have all of the command line stuff that you could do. You essentially start with D and simple as the kicks off the CLI, and then you could do a high level sort of context for the command saying okay might be around domains or zones or things like that, and then the particular action you might want to be like list or create or what have you. Where it really starts to shine is when you start accessing it from agentic AI tools. Right, so for some like generative eye tools like claw for us, claud is the common thing that a lot of us use at the end simple and so when you start doing that from within Claude, it opens up a lot of really interesting sort of

23:25Speaker 3:user interactions that would otherwise have to be exposed either at the API level, so in other words, sort of a higher level combine multiple commands together through the API or through the CLI or in a user interface. And so when you start to work with it from a more sort of textual interface like you can do from within Claude or whatever tool you might use, really the possibilities quickly open up and you start to look at and say, wow, this is a very different and comfortable way to work with the The dnsimble API is via this CLI.

24:02Speaker 1:So I imagine you have an MCP interface then, so.

24:05Speaker 3:Right now, essentially Claude can and most of the tools if there were running in your desktop, which is or in your in your local environment right now, can access any CLI tool as a tool. Okay, all right, So a common one that we started using months ago was the gh tool from GitHub. So Claude can just access GH straight from the command line as a normal tool. It doesn't need an MCP interface for it. You can just you can start working with it and it'll start constructing the commands that needs to construct out of the knowledge it can gain. The context it gains from usually the help documentation or like the inline help for the CLI and so we followed that same pattern with the and simple. It's literally just the CLI, so you can use it as a CLI, but the minute you're in Claude, if you authorize Claude to do certain actions with it, you can just do it with natural text from within claud and it'll still use the CLI interface. So you have sort of the limitations, which are good in many cases of what the CLI can do. Say, for example, you might want to protect yourself from doing crazy things,

25:11Speaker 3:so you have Claude, you know, ask you before it executes any particular code, or if you're doing read items, you might do more complex things and say, just run through this patch without asking me. So yeah, it just it doesn't have an MCP interface. We do see that potentially we will have one, but that's a different use case. I can we can talk a little more about that later.

25:29Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a great it's a great question of how necessary that is at this point, right, Like lms are pretting pretty good and interrogating CLIs anyway, Like what does the MCP bringing equation?

25:42Speaker 3:I think it's your it's where you're doing that execution. So the CLI is fine when you're dealing with a local environment. So if you're using claud code locally, it's not usable if you're using Claude from a web browser, for example, And I think that's where it's that's where the MCP SERVERCE starts to be more interesting. So for example, uh, it would be nice to be and I've done this with other projects that I've worked on.

26:04Speaker 4:It's nice to be.

26:05Speaker 3:In say claud dot AI, so in the web and be able to actually call into something through the MCP service that you've added in and that it becomes aware of all those commands.

26:17Speaker 4:So it's just it's.

26:18Speaker 3:Another way of exposing the API, and it gives enough information and context to those generative AI tools so that you can they can understand and understand they can properly formulate the commands that it needs to formulate in order to do what it needs to do.

26:34Speaker 2:Nice I just set it up via PowerShell, threw me through my authentication strategy and pop back down in the session work that could charm pulled up a list of my domains.

26:44Speaker 3:And I've been so I've I obviously I use the insimble lot, right. I mean we're working in it every day, whether it's testing things or whether actually managing domains that we manager. I'm managing my personal domains, and I can say that being able to once I started being able to do that within Claude, within my claud environment, it's hard to go back now, right, because I describe the thing I want to do, and it can be a multi step thing. I'll give you a simple example. Right, I want to register domain. Then I want to set up an alias record so it points to my hosting that's maybe Railway or flight out io or whatever. And then I want a certificate that's automatically installed. And then I want to also set up the mail records because I'm using Google, so set everything up for me. And I can do that in a single in a single prompt, and it can execute that step by step. And if it fails along the way, if it tries to follow a path that is incorrect, so it hallucinates an incorrect path or what have you, I can have it stop.

27:49Speaker 3:I can interrogate and see what it wants to have it introgate me. I can do vice versa. Or I can have it continue forward and have it like figure out, okay, what's the next step I should have taken. Take a step back for and that would have taken a lot of clicking through UI in order to do it, or a lot of individual CLI calls.

28:08Speaker 2:I mean, I don't hate clicking through DN simple. I do it routinely, not every day or anything, but routinely. And it's obvious enough that I generate our problems except certificates. Everything about certificate sucks.

28:21Speaker 4:It's you just want them to be done. There's still still there's still some interactions there even in our interface that that I want to be better.

28:28Speaker 2:Well, you don't have control over them, right.

28:31Speaker 3:In a lot of cases you don't write because you have it's a long process. You have part Maybe you might have control over some things.

28:36Speaker 2:You might not.

28:37Speaker 3:You need to have the certifigate request. You might generate it, you might not. There's a lot of different paths that you can follow, and.

28:44Speaker 2:So getting good any command line for certificates just for repeatability, so you just write it. I mean I leave notes for myself for certificates all the time that usually start off with hate dummy. If you've got here, it's because you're screwing up. This is what you have to do.

28:56Speaker 1:So when I register a domain for an asure web, say I go to use the free managed certificates and Azure, and I've been bitten by that a couple of times. All of a sudden, the website isn't working and I go there and the ip it, the underlying IP address has changed, certificate is not valid, and so I have to reach in those. But you know, you think you'd get an email or something.

29:26Speaker 3:Yeah, But I mean, frankly, I think the direction we're let's say honestly acme and let's encrypt is the implementation of it kind of one. Yeah, And I think it's just there's a lot of cases where we still can't use that to automatically rotate the certificates every like they should be. But the caab SO Certificate Authority Board that manages all this stuff is reducing the amount of time any certificates allowed to live. We're already down under a year, and by I think within the next two years are supposed to be required to be down to ninety days for everybody, if I recall correct for certificates.

30:01Speaker 2:Yeah, I've done this show on run ass radio. We should probably do it on rocks at some point. But the ultimate goes forty seven days. And this all comes back to the revocation systems just don't work, and so it's how do you get bad CERTs out of the system as quickly as possible? And so you know that sort of reality of you're going to need to renew your seerts roughly every month with a couple of weeks grace period. That's that's painful, right. You better automate that or you're going to lose your mind.

30:32Speaker 3:It's I can't I can't see us going to a place in two years from now still manually rotating certificates.

30:39Speaker 2:It just knows it.

30:41Speaker 3:Doesn't make sense. But I think there's a lot of businesses that are still stuck doing that because they're in legacy systems where they don't have the ability to do that automation.

30:49Speaker 4:And that's that's challenging for them. I know that it's still an issue.

30:52Speaker 2:Yeah, well, and we're not talking about web servers. That's easy. You know, try a firewall with a certain firewall API is different, Like it's a.

31:02Speaker 4:Nightmare exactly if they have an API.

31:05Speaker 2:Yeah, if there's any way to give it.

31:06Speaker 3:All, you might have to unit might have to go into that firewall and connect out to grab the certificate to.

31:13Speaker 4:Pull it in totally.

31:14Speaker 3:So, Yeah, there's all kinds of craziness in the world when you deal with legacy here.

31:17Speaker 2:Yeah, and and I'm gonna plug Todd Gardner's cirtkit right now as a tool for we should do this show because I mean, it's certainly been a big deal for SIS events, but everybody's going to be affected by anyway. We should take a break.

31:29Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good idea. We'll take a little break. We'll be right back after these very important messages don't go away.

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32:19Speaker 2:And we're back. It's dot Netrocksamerchard Camp. Well, let's call Franklin. Hey, talking to our friend Anthony Eden do that for a show with twenty fourteen. We've been hanging out for a while.

32:28Speaker 3:It has it has been a journey so far, and I love the fact that we keep getting a chance to see each other.

32:35Speaker 4:Well, you have time to time on the podcast. It's always good.

32:37Speaker 2:Well, you wouldn't think DNS is that interesting, but it's one of those pieces of software that absolutely has to work. There's no tolerance for any failure of any kind at any time because it is plumbing.

32:50Speaker 1:And you can't get lost in a barrage of predatory web pages that when you go to change something and they they just want to keep selling you things.

33:02Speaker 2:Well, now I have no UI at all. It's just a command line.

33:06Speaker 4:We've come full circle.

33:09Speaker 1:I'm so very happy, very very happy.

33:14Speaker 3:Yeah, it's it's really interesting. I've been in this business for a long time. I've been working in domain business since nineteen ninety nine, and there are some things that stay the same, but each year something new happens. And I don't know if you all know, but the i CAN has announced this year for the new applications for the next round of new top level domains are you aware of.

33:34Speaker 2:This, No, no, but I'll include in the show notes. But we had like dot show and there's all kinds of TLDs now.

33:42Speaker 4:So it's happening again.

33:43Speaker 3:Yeah, and so so there's going to be another rush for TLDs. The bad news is that the costs to the entry costs for one TLD is pretty much doubled since last time, and I think last time was around twenty fifteen actually.

34:00Speaker 4:When they were doing this.

34:01Speaker 1:Wow, I think the gold rush is over for those things. I mean if you think about it, Yeah, you have your major corporations that want to have their public facing stuff, but you know, for most people who have websites, they just search. I mean, yeah, you don't need to have the crazy domains anymore.

34:19Speaker 4:I mean it's they're fun.

34:21Speaker 3:They're fun when you can get one, and they can be they can really stand out.

34:25Speaker 4:But yeah, there's a lot of.

34:27Speaker 3:Choices, and I think one of the downsides is that there are some that have have kind of been overtaken by bad actors and various It's always the same challenge.

34:37Speaker 2:I mean, this would be the argument for opening more top level domains is decreasing the scarcity. Yes, correct, make more available so that the prices go down and the backwaters can be properly backwatered.

34:50Speaker 3:And it sounds great in the concept, but that every year the prices of TLDs keep getting going up.

34:56Speaker 4:They're not going down.

34:57Speaker 3:So I can tell you that for the vast majority TLDs, we see every couple of years price increases, and so it's it's from from where we sit in the middle as the registrar, and honestly, it's it's a very frustrating experience, like.

35:15Speaker 2:People must be routinely angry at you, even though you don't set the prices.

35:18Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, they're angry at us, and we're like, well, we we have literally like these tiny little margins on top of it. The registries are getting almost all of it right, and we have no say really in the cost of it because they set whatever price they're allowed to set based on their agreements with icons. And for the new TLDs it was basically a free for all. They're like, you set the prices whatever however you want.

35:40Speaker 2:Sure.

35:41Speaker 3:The only ones that people have ever put a stink up on is of course dot com and dot net because the initial the originals the originals, and then when dot org got bought by a private equity company or the company that runs dot org, and people were really really scared that they were going to jack the prices. And dot org has traditionally been for nonprofits and other pronunciations, and so there was a lot of fear, Oh, this is going to be the end of a TLD specifically for nonprofits. The good news is it has not really turned out that way. Dot org is still very fairly priced, I think.

36:10Speaker 2:But the evil thing, Harry, is you know, you spend all that money promoting your domain name, and then the the TLD host hikes the price, Like, what are you going to do? Abandon it? You're stuck?

36:22Speaker 3:You are you are at the worst one is when you get a really good name on one of the new TLDs and then they come back a couple of years later and like, you know, that's a premium domain, so you're gonna have to pay a higher renewal fee on that.

36:37Speaker 4:That one is Wow. Has hit us a couple of times.

36:39Speaker 1:I like, yeah, you're going to have to go ahead and pay double on that.

36:48Speaker 2:Because you've been successful, we will be punishing you exactly.

36:53Speaker 3:It really feels that way sometimes, and I want the industry to do well as a whole. But I think sometimes it's a little missile aligned with where the money is going. I think it's going to an environment where innovation really isn't important, Like they don't they're not really needing to innovate too much.

37:10Speaker 2:Well, operating a tld can't be frickin' rocket science, like holy Man.

37:14Speaker 3:Only at the largest scale, Like it's what VeriSign does with the dot com and dot net registries.

37:19Speaker 2:Okay, it's not trivial.

37:20Speaker 4:That is not trivial.

37:21Speaker 3:Yeah, operating the routine name servers not trivial. But I think that there there was a lot of consolidation at the actual registry, so the operational registry level, and there are not that many providers out there, and they've gotten pretty good at it at operating TLDs, and so yeah, sometimes I feel that maybe the incentives are slightly misaligned. But we're such a small player that there's not I mean, we are we are a member of the various we're a member of I can, we go to meetings from time to time, but we're just such a small niche player that it's not it's hard for us to invest a bunch to argue that we should be doing better things.

38:00Speaker 2:Sure. So the last time this was done was twenty twelve, it was yeah, and it was twelve hundred new global TLDs. Yeah, so, I mean that's a long time ago. It was I think about that, you know, fourteen years later, that's a big change. So, yeah, this is probably going to be very interesting.

38:18Speaker 3:It will be another interesting one if I had if I had a massive pile of cash, I would probably go and try to apply for some of them.

38:25Speaker 4:But they are rich. They are not cheaping, I bet at all.

38:31Speaker 3:And if you if you get to the end of the process and you have two or more organizations that want the same tld you essentially didn't enter into a bidding.

38:41Speaker 2:Phase bidding war.

38:43Speaker 3:Yeah, and then who knows how high the price can go. I mean the last time around, the dot app which was one that I think Google and some others were fighting over, hit ten million.

38:51Speaker 4:I think for it.

38:52Speaker 2:Yeah. No, if one of the hyperscalers is in the bidding, you should bow out, like what are you thinking?

38:57Speaker 3:Well, except that if you stick it, stick around long enough and you don't win, you get the second bidder apparently gets.

39:04Speaker 4:A portion of the funds.

39:06Speaker 2:Wow.

39:07Speaker 3:So that was actually used last time around as a way of financing for what I understand really inside baseball here, but apparently one of the companies that used to be known as Donuts, I believe, if I heard correctly, with finance some of their other TLDs by trying to be competitive up to the last moment but not winning the bidding for some of those TLDs, and so they were able to actually make a profit on something they didn't end up getting and then use that to fund some of the other TLDs.

39:35Speaker 2:They got crazy.

39:36Speaker 1:I wanted just to take a minute to acknowledge how awesome Dan Simple is and we don't you know, this isn't an infomercial, but just the joy that I've had using it, especially compared to the other things that we were using. And I tell the story often of how I was in a security line in the airport and setting up mail records for one of my domains, you know, with one hand on my phone. Yeah, and it was it was just so easy and effortless. And it looks good too. It's like go on the back end bootstrap on the front, right.

40:12Speaker 3:It's actually so our back end is rails for most of the web app. But the yeah, it used to be bootstrapped. Now I think we're swapping over to Tailwind because I don't think bootstraps maintained. But the look and feel is kind of the same there. And I do appreciate that you enjoy using it. From time to time, I have to go use other providers to if I'm trying to help somebody try to understand something, and sometimes it hurts pretty bad. Yeah, it really does. It's just so I appreciate the kind words, Carl, and I'm glad that you've been a customer for so long, and I hope that we can keep you for much longer as well well.

40:43Speaker 1:And I hope we can impress on our listeners too that it's it's really a good thing to switch.

40:48Speaker 3:If you're already I do have something special. I have something special this time around. I actually have and we can put this in the show notes after. I have a URL for you, specifically for dot net rocks that will give folks a ten dollars credit towards anything towards a domain purchase, towards their subscription and what have you. Wow, if they use that, so I'm going to I'll give that to you via a messaging or what have you via the email and you can pop that on there.

41:14Speaker 2:Is it?

41:14Speaker 1:Is it readable? Can you just say it?

41:17Speaker 2:Yeah?

41:17Speaker 4:I mean it's it's slash oh slash dot net rocks. Okay, that's pretty much it.

41:22Speaker 3:Again, it's going to be really easy to see from the sense, people should be looking at the show notes at this point, shouldn't.

41:29Speaker 1:They That should yeah?

41:30Speaker 4:Oh yea, absolutely that they are that engaged. They should be looking at us. So we'll hide it in there.

41:35Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll put them in the show notes for sure. Very good. That's awesome. So okay, I, when you see l I from a straight pointed point of view, just straight commands be able to do that. But then the LM's come to play. So now you're just having conversations about making adjustments to DNS entries, doing domain registration, renewing, replacing certificates.

41:53Speaker 4:Asking questions.

41:54Speaker 3:So one of the first uses I did for was I said, look at all my domains and give me a list of the ones that will be expired in the next ninety days.

42:01Speaker 2:Yep, great, and then and it query it is.

42:04Speaker 3:It's a very straightforward one, and I and it's what it was interesting was that it gave me the list and it says all of these are actually set up to automatically renew. Right, So I said everything to auto renew on mine. But if I would have missed one, it would have actually called it out at and in fact one yeah well no, yeah, well, I mean the thing is the a P I will return this.

42:24Speaker 4:And that's one of the.

42:24Speaker 3:Things about I think that's an important part of using a cl I plus the l M is because the CLI provides boundaries, it provides clear limitations.

42:37Speaker 2:So when you ask for it, well provides a mechanism of accuracy. Exactly there is a command exactly it is, It is not going to be. It's it's definitely definitive. You you asked for a list, You're going to get back a list, sure, and that list is going to have a certain set of fields. So yeah, far more subtle thing would be and that this is a question I should set up and ask is what's misconfigured on any of my domains.

42:58Speaker 3:That's a that's a great question. And then something that you could probably it would probably start asking you questions about well, what are you using, Like common areas that are misconfigured.

43:08Speaker 4:Might be email.

43:09Speaker 3:I looked and I found that some of your domains have no email set up? Is that intentional? So these are actually and I think email is one of those areas that often frustrates people, so that the part where email crosses of the boundaries into DNS, you have to have the right DNS records set up to make sure deliverability works, to make sure that you're not getting sent to spam and what have you. And I think people struggle with that so much so that there are companies that are built to just deal with that problem. But there's nothing that stops you from trying it with an LLLM right checking what says.

43:40Speaker 2:Yeah, how often do you have a domain that actually has a text field that is a token for a service somewhere? And I wonder if the tool would be clever enough. I notice the language I'm using here. I'm calling an LLM a tool for a reason. Yes, it's a tool at the best of times. I meaning a tool both as a constructive way and a derogatory way. Yes it is, let's be very clear.

44:01Speaker 6:Uh, And the ll M comes back, what'd you call me? Yeah, it's like, go ahead, be resentful tool. It would acknowledge tool.

44:12Speaker 3:Yeah, it acknowledge that it is a tool both for a good and bad there's look, it's the it's it's the nature of the beasts. These things are they're they're not there. They're they'll never be perfect because they're essentially just a statistic likelihood that a set of tokens are going to be aligned in a certain way based on a very large amount of data. Uh so there will be inevitable failures. It's it's not and that's why it's not intelligence, right, it's it's that's it's actually a poor misnomer for it. Yeah, it's a neat tool. Large language models are very neat tools. But there's they're not intelligent.

44:47Speaker 2:Very clever tools. Well that's it again. Getting rid of the anthemomorphanization is about reminding yourself it's just software, and software has.

44:55Speaker 4:Bucked absolutely absolutely.

44:56Speaker 2:But I look at through like all the text fields in some of my DNS entries and like, what the heck was I thinking there? And I bet you the tool do a better job of identifying them and going I think this was for that and help you track down some of the stuff. It's like, do I need these things though?

45:12Speaker 4:Yeah?

45:12Speaker 3:Just remember if if it hallucinates what it was for and then you go and just delete it willy nilly, that's on you.

45:19Speaker 2:But in the end, I, you know, I like that I am responsible for my own activities. If I take you know, if I took bad advice from a search engine, it's on me too. Yeah.

45:27Speaker 3:Absolutely, one of the one quick thing that I wanted to point out. I think the neat thing about having the CLI available is there certain times you don't want to use the LMS so for example, or you don't want to use any other tool other than direct to CLI, let's say, and this maybe isn't as critical with the and simple, but let's say you're using a tool where you have to set credentials or you have to put secrets in You never want to do that through if they're important secrets that you don't want to do that through any other tool, and you want to go as direct as possible.

45:57Speaker 4:And the CLI is.

45:59Speaker 3:Nice because you can eventually formulate up a very clear plan for how to do that without needing to have any any context or anything else, and you can execute it and nothing will have a history of it except your command line, which you can clear out so I think that there's that's important. It's nice to have the underlying tool, and it's it's a distinction between an MCP ser you couldn't do that same thing because the MCP is designed to work in the context of LM. So it's it's another maybe interesting little thing to keep aware of if you're working with these types of tools.

46:28Speaker 2:Should I if I'm going to go down this path, and I'm very tempted to go down this path, I think I will go down this path. Can I set up a separate account to get access to my domains but not have edit privileges.

46:40Speaker 3:You don't need to do that. You just need to create a read token. So you create a token and you just give it read only access. Yeah, and then and you'll have you can do it for all of your domains. You can do it for a subset of your domains if you want to play you know, it's.

46:53Speaker 2:It's up to you.

46:54Speaker 3:And then you just use that particular access token in that particular case.

46:58Speaker 2:Nice for this for.

46:59Speaker 3:The clib is, even though the clia lets you authenticate with a AUTH which essentially gives it a token that can do almost anything you don't, you can also set a token like do you could say, like I want to log in with this particular token in this for this account.

47:14Speaker 2:So, because what's better in this world than an ll IM, you know, coming back to you saying you're right. I shouldn't have deleted all you accounts. That's on you.

47:22Speaker 4:You're right, and this has happened. This has happened.

47:25Speaker 3:There's a there's a strong argument that if you're working in a production environment, you want to slightly control the token that you're using to the least amount of access that it needs to get its shop done.

47:35Speaker 2:Right. Yep, very very true and good to good your.

47:38Speaker 1:Mind, sort of like ocom's razor in reverse. Yeah, do the simplest thing that works.

47:43Speaker 3:Yeah, I would also I would also recommend that the other thing is if if you really, again you're working in production environments, another way to do this is you use the l M to create configuration is code. So it might be something like terraform or or whatever it might be that you use ants blacks, whatever answell, doesn't matter, and then that way you can verify it with a human that it's doing everything you need to end you have a history of it in your your get history that this change has made it for the by this person for these reasons. So there's a whole nother path down there. You don't have to go directly through CLI.

48:18Speaker 3:There's certain cases where it works really well, especially when you're prototyping quickly, and certain cases where you probably don't undo it, especially if you're working in a production environment that maybe hundreds of thousands or millions of people are using.

48:28Speaker 2:Right.

48:28Speaker 3:Right, So it's it's still even in this day and age, you can't delegate thinking to your tools because there are just tools.

48:35Speaker 7:You know.

48:35Speaker 3:I don't tell my hammer how to hammer yep, right like, I still have to know how to use that tool, and it's important for folks that are doing this to keep that in mind.

48:43Speaker 2:Yeah, at the same time, the ability to tell it, okay, you know, make these changes is very tempting. I would still go down the path of Okay, what changes do I need to make? Give me the list, because it's not that much work. I mean, if I was doing hundreds of them, fine, I'll do smart. Then I would even ask and it suggest to the tool, will or tell the tool give me the commands, give me the commands I've done as well, exactly so that you're still running the script. Just not giving right privileges is a good idea.

49:15Speaker 3:I'm very curious for the two of you. Are you using these Are you using Jenny I tools on a regular basis?

49:20Speaker 1:Yeah, I am, but not yet for DNS. Maybe tomorrow I will be.

49:26Speaker 2:It's interesting to think about it from from an administrator's perspective, and I could do. It's one thing to do it for dev. It's another thing to do it for data retrieval and then organizing thoughts and things. It's another thing again to start doing your administrative stuff. I routinely dip into these tools to diagnose network problems and machine behavior problems and things like that, and always to okay, what's the commands to correct?

49:49Speaker 1:We were just talking about how codex seems to be a really good tool for diagnosing system problems. It can read logs, you know, it can figure things out that are misconfigured firewalls, something that I went through with Mark Miller just a few days ago, and it did really did a good job.

50:09Speaker 2:You know, the terrible error message that most software spits out is trivial for an LLM to parse, and it's main in the butt for humans to party It's one of those moments like I look at the error message and I'm like, what the pace the whole thing into chatchip cold and you go, what's this and it goes, Oh, you're working on this product with these things, and you got this error. I suggest this and like, jam.

50:33Speaker 3:As long as it doesn't hallucinate something that doesn't actually exist, because that has I've caught the.

50:37Speaker 4:Tools to do that.

50:39Speaker 3:And it's hilarious when it happens, because it will be certain right, this thing exists, like this API exists.

50:45Speaker 4:I'm just gonna but for some reason I can't call it.

50:48Speaker 2:And in the moment you indicate that does not exist, you're like, you're.

50:51Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and then yeah, you actually it yeah, and it says you're right.

50:58Speaker 3:I'm trying to I'm trying to all the tools a little bit more, not to use flattery, language.

51:06Speaker 2:Of the certainty, all of the you know, all of these things are lies. I need to.

51:13Speaker 3:But but I can't deny that it does. It does, and it's it's a dilemma because the tooling provides, UH can provide some really interesting productivity boosts for us to think at a higher level of how to build things, how to create things software wise, how to fix things, how to diagnose problems. On the other hand, that's a lot. We're depending a lot on a very small group of companies that are putting a ton of money into it. And I'm really worried that other shoe is going to drop.

51:43Speaker 2:Here a ton of other people's money.

51:46Speaker 3:Correct, well, a ton of I mean, yes, right now, we're not putting a ton of money in because it's being subsidized by investment dollars.

51:54Speaker 2:They what are real cost is going to be on this thing?

51:56Speaker 4:Yes?

51:58Speaker 3:And and and will there be an incentive when the real costs come out to focus on cost improvements because they are operating it just they're just burning cash right now.

52:08Speaker 2:Well, it seems like the beginning of this year was the beginning of the you need to optimize, and clearly prices are going up, the free stuff starting to diminish, like you're seeing the shaping of or getting to reality. I want to think it's a logical sequence. I just think that's very unlikely. We're just you know, they they investors have been spooked enough that now they have to make the correct gestures to keep the investors involved. But these are how bubbles deflate hopefully, and you know, I would be happy if that happened gracefully. Me too. That seems very unlikely.

52:41Speaker 4:Me too, seem very unlikely that's going to happen.

52:44Speaker 3:So speaking, speaking of efficiency, by the way, real quick, have you heard of the tool called RTK.

52:48Speaker 4:No, so take a look at RTK.

52:51Speaker 3:It's basically a tool that captures the other tool commands and tightens the requests and the response. So it's all it's not using the LM to do this, actually using uh so actual pro software to trim things down and remove unnecessary text to save tokens.

53:10Speaker 2:So this is on GitHub r.

53:12Speaker 3:Yes, RTK, I believe is what actually if you go to yeah.

53:17Speaker 2:It's our RTK dash ai slash rtk Yep.

53:20Speaker 4:It's super super interesting.

53:22Speaker 3:We've we all use it pretty much, all use it a d and simple now great tool for sort of reducing token Yeah.

53:30Speaker 2:Yeah, you see us all moving towards various optimization and methodology.

53:34Speaker 1:Yeah, so what's next at dan simple? Do you guys have a backlog you're burning through at a greater pace now that you've got some agentic tools working against it, or.

53:44Speaker 3:So we've taken we've taken a slightly different approach I think than a lot of companies are. We're not trying to do like we're not trying to be oh well produced ten times as many things, because there's a quality impact of doing that.

53:58Speaker 4:There's there's only a.

53:59Speaker 3:Sure our funnel still looks the way it does in terms of team members, and we want people to be paying attention to what they're doing. So instead, what we're doing is we're focusing on cleaning up some of the backlog of things that weren't like that have been frustrating for us, frustrating customers. Yes, and we're using this as an opportunity to spend some time on that before we go into the next round of Okay, now that we clean that up, what kind of functionality do people really need?

54:27Speaker 3:What kind of new products can we look into doing that are adjacent to what we're already.

54:31Speaker 4:Doing things like that, because we.

54:33Speaker 3:We think that we've i mean, our api, our ui, most of this stuff has been pretty stable for quite a long time.

54:41Speaker 4:What else could we do to do better?

54:43Speaker 3:And the first thing is do better with what we already have and then figure out other areas where we can help do better that we haven't yet touched.

54:49Speaker 2:Sure, that's very smart. I am talking to more organizations these days who, as they're getting through their backlogs, are kind of looking around saying like, what do we do now? And for the most part, it's how much stuff never hit the back law because it was never going to get to Yeah, and it turns out a lot Yes see, they're producing a lot more software, and I'm having a lot more software to produce. Yeah.

55:12Speaker 3:The downside of that is that you produce a lot more software, it's going to you're producing a lot more defects, and you're producing a lot more main costs, maintenance costs, and you're and so it's it's.

55:25Speaker 4:An interesting time for sure for software development as a whole.

55:28Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we have to take responsibility, you know, the whole. You know, roll, don't roll your own if you don't have to. It's not about I can't write this code. It's I don't want to own this code.

55:38Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, indeed. So, yeah, that's what we're doing.

55:41Speaker 3:We're focusing right now on just on cleaning up some of the things that have been sitting there for many, many years, which I was able to use Claude to look at over a period of time. I went back and used that member. I mentioned g h which is githubs tool for looking through GitHub issues and you can use it. And so I was producing analysis on okay each month by month for each year. Tell me what open issues we still have? Let's write up about are they actually still open? Because what we find is sometimes we don't close an issue out, we don't link it up properly, maybe it was fixed by something else unintentionally.

56:18Speaker 3:And so I went back and now I have a whole long list of things which I know are still issues, and a bunch of things that are no longer issues because they were solved, that aren't cluttering up our GitHub repo, our get hub issues, which is great. So there's a lot of uses that we find that when you open up certain tooling, you can start to go, oh that I never even thought about being able to do that, and that's pretty cool.

56:39Speaker 2:That's very powerful.

56:40Speaker 1:Is there anything we missed in the conversation that you want to mention before we hang up?

56:45Speaker 3:From my side, not really, just I keep thinking, one of these days I'm going to I want to be on dot neet rocks and I'm going.

56:52Speaker 4:To interview the two of you.

56:53Speaker 2:No, it's this.

56:54Speaker 4:Thing that's gone through my head. Yeah, I'm gonna interview.

56:56Speaker 3:I'm going to get deep into, like the Richard and Carl, what you're doing right now.

57:03Speaker 1:I'm sitting in a hotel room in Brooklyn.

57:05Speaker 2:I don't know what you're doing, but yeah, I get that.

57:07Speaker 3:Yeah, I didn't even I'm in France right now, so for the moment, I hear it. Heading back over to the US in just a bit.

57:11Speaker 1:Yeah, great, Anthony, It's been a delight as usual to talk to you today.

57:16Speaker 3:Carl Richard, It's always a pleasure to speak with both of you. Thanks for having me on again.

57:19Speaker 7:You bet anytime, friend, and we'll talk to you, dear listener, next time on dot net rocks.

57:45Speaker 8:Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post production facilities located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online at p W O P dot com.

58:01Speaker 9:Visit our website at d O T N E T R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going back to show number one, recorded in September two.

58:15Speaker 8:Thousand and two, and make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now go write some code. See you next time you got Jamdlevans