#302: It Was a Dark and Stormy Insight...

0:00[Announcer]: Welcome to the Analytics Power Hour. [Announcer]: Analytics topics covered conversationally and sometimes with explicit language. [Tim Wilson]: Hi everyone, welcome to the Analytics Power Hour. [Tim Wilson]: This is episode number 302. [Tim Wilson]: I'm Tim Wilson and I thought I would kick things off with the start of a poem by Edgar [Tim Wilson]: the Analyst Poe. [Tim Wilson]: Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered weak and weary, over many a deck and query [Tim Wilson]: heaped upon the office floor, while our business partners barely waking, kept on nodding, kept [Tim Wilson]: on faking interest in the point I'm making till they wandered out the door.

0:47[Tim Wilson]: Cry die, surely truth and data should compel them to the core. [Tim Wilson]: But these are just facts and nothing more. [Tim Wilson]: Okay, if you're nervous then I'm going to do a raven length recitation, have no fear. [Tim Wilson]: We'll leave it at a single stanza. [Tim Wilson]: What we're going to chat about today though is that pesky reality that while data and [Tim Wilson]: its analysis is valuable and is our bread and butter, the data alone is rarely enough to [Tim Wilson]: drive positive behavioral change.

1:14[Tim Wilson]: We need to be compelling to alter the beliefs of our business partners in order to motivate [Tim Wilson]: change, and that requires a lot more than just the results of our analyses. [Tim Wilson]: For that discussion I'm joined for this episode by my co-host, or by my co-host, my co-host, [Tim Wilson]: Moe Kiss. [Tim Wilson]: Moe, are you pronouncing any words funnily like I am today? [Moe Kiss]: To be fair, I'm not starting off with a poem with a dramatic reading, so I feel like my [Moe Kiss]: job's a lot easier today.

1:46[Tim Wilson]: I also had a dog that we're dog-sitting walking underfoot throughout all of that, so if I [Tim Wilson]: held it together, good for me. [Moe Kiss]: Excellent. [Tim Wilson]: We were also going to be joined by Val Kroll, she unfortunately is under the wetter weather [Tim Wilson]: at the last minute. [Tim Wilson]: Wetter? [Aleya Harris]: Oh, this is not going to be good if we're going to talk about diction and using appropriate [Tim Wilson]: words.

2:08[Tim Wilson]: So, what we thought we'd do was get a professional who actually doesn't butcher the English language [Tim Wilson]: on a, at a moment's notice, like I am doing so far. [Tim Wilson]: So, we recruited a guest for this discussion after we saw her totally own, I mean like [Tim Wilson]: dominate, own of the room at Marketing Analytics Summit earlier this year out in Santa Barbara. [Tim Wilson]: Aleya Harris is a strategic storytelling advisor for leaders and organizations.

2:35[Tim Wilson]: She wears many hats at the Evolution Collective, including both CEO and program developer and [Tim Wilson]: the lead trainer for Spark the Stage Signature, where she builds your keynote so you leave [Tim Wilson]: with a finished presentation, a professional speaker platform and skills to own the stage. [Tim Wilson]: She sets a high bar for how she owns the stage. [Tim Wilson]: She's a best-selling author and a TEDx speaker and today she is our guest.

2:57[Tim Wilson]: Welcome to the show, Aleya. [Aleya Harris]: So much for having me, I mean, I really love speaking at Analytics Summit, but I think I [Aleya Harris]: might have loved that poem. [Aleya Harris]: Maybe just a little bit more, so. [Tim Wilson]: That was one where there was an AI assist, but then I had to do a heavy edit, so I did [Tim Wilson]: practice my dramatic reading a couple of times, so. [Aleya Harris]: And you could, it showed, it was quite good.

3:24[Aleya Harris]: It showed. [Aleya Harris]: And then I also would like to lower expectations for all of your listeners. [Aleya Harris]: I make no guarantees that I will say all of my words properly either, so just in case [Aleya Harris]: it doesn't have to require me. [Tim Wilson]: Well, I started by setting the bar pretty low, so, well, well, we're thrilled to have [Tim Wilson]: you and when we. [Tim Wilson]: Thank you for having me. [Tim Wilson]: Well, so when we saw you speak, one of the things you really hammered on pretty hard [Tim Wilson]: is it's something that I think we all sort of know, but then, like, as analysts, we like [Tim Wilson]: to ignore, and that's that, you know, just the facts, like just delivering the data is [Tim Wilson]: not only is it not effective, I think it's uniquely ineffective when it comes to actually [Tim Wilson]: getting somebody to make a decision and drive change.

4:15[Tim Wilson]: So if that's a fair way for me to put words in your mouth, can you maybe talk about that [Tim Wilson]: a little bit? [Tim Wilson]: Like, why are stories so critical when it comes to delivering information in a business [Tim Wilson]: context? [Aleya Harris]: Because you put words into my mouth beautifully and wonderfully, I'm here for all of that. [Aleya Harris]: So the reason why it's important is because stories are how our brains work, they function [Aleya Harris]: in story.

4:39[Aleya Harris]: You can give me 10 bullet points of data, but you can tell me a story and I might remember [Aleya Harris]: one bullet point of data, but I will always remember the story. [Aleya Harris]: I tell this story, which is a true story, about how I, in not a, I say a former life, [Aleya Harris]: but then I'm also very woo, so I think sometimes people mean like I meant like, you know, back [Aleya Harris]: in the 1800s when my name was Melissa, but no, I mean, like, earlier on in my career, [Aleya Harris]: I was a private chef.

5:11[Aleya Harris]: I was a private chef for lots of celebrities and one of them was Stevie Wonder. [Aleya Harris]: And one of my favorite moments was we were in Utah because he was singing with the Moermon [Aleya Harris]: Tabernacle Choir, of which I had a front row seat to their rehearsal concerts, amazing [Aleya Harris]: thing. [Aleya Harris]: But I remember the night before, we were all a bunch of us were in his hotel suite. [Aleya Harris]: I was sitting on his bed and he was like doodling up a song on his phone.

5:48[Aleya Harris]: And I started like doodling it with him and I was like, oh my God, I'm making a song with [Aleya Harris]: Stevie Wonder. [Aleya Harris]: Is that, is that one? [Aleya Harris]: Don't worry, it's not on anybody's record. [Aleya Harris]: I asked if we were going to like get this out into the world, he, he promptly laughed [Aleya Harris]: at me. [Aleya Harris]: But then the more that I really honed in this situation, I mean, he was adding in lyrics [Aleya Harris]: and beats and melody and we were like just doodling up a song and I took me a second [Aleya Harris]: to remember that this man is not sighted.

6:21[Aleya Harris]: Right? [Aleya Harris]: Like, I was looking at him, doing everything he's doing, thinking it's all normal, talking [Aleya Harris]: to him, engaging with him like I would a sighted person, but he isn't one. [Aleya Harris]: And I took a pause for a second to be like, wait a minute, he never put limitations on [Aleya Harris]: himself. [Aleya Harris]: Yeah, the Grammy Awards, the fact that he's like a musical genius, blah, blah, blah. [Aleya Harris]: But one of the main moments that I remember about him, about him reaching out possibilities [Aleya Harris]: was us making this song with him, doing all this stuff on his phone as a non sighted human.

7:01[Aleya Harris]: And the question I asked myself was, where have I been letting excuses hold me back? [Aleya Harris]: I have all of the resources, all of the things that I can do with myself. [Aleya Harris]: He has a severe impediment compared to a lot of other people and yet this man has a household [Aleya Harris]: name across the world and it was in that moment that I decided that I actually didn't want [Aleya Harris]: to be part of Stevie Wonder's entourage.

7:33[Aleya Harris]: I didn't want to cook anymore. [Aleya Harris]: I wanted to be an entrepreneur and not be part of someone else's entourage but develop [Aleya Harris]: one of my own. [Aleya Harris]: Right? [Aleya Harris]: But it was that moment. [Aleya Harris]: Now, I sat and I told you the story. [Aleya Harris]: Your listeners here have heard this story. [Aleya Harris]: Instead of telling you a story about how overcoming obstacles and watching someone else do it [Aleya Harris]: inspired me to overcome those obstacles, inspired me to overcome those obstacles and [Aleya Harris]: become a business owner, I could have given you a bunch of data around 50% of people that [Aleya Harris]: have obstacles to overcome, do it in these ways, step one, two, three, 25% of this, expert [Aleya Harris]: gender this, if we have this large demographic percentage of this, da, da, da, da, da, da.

8:24[Aleya Harris]: Or I could tell you my Stevie Wonder story. [Aleya Harris]: Which one do you think is more compelling? [Aleya Harris]: Which one do you think is going to inspire more people? [Aleya Harris]: The story or the bullet-pointed list of data? [Aleya Harris]: What do you think will actually inspire people to participate in their own transformation, [Aleya Harris]: which is what I'm in the business of doing? [Aleya Harris]: And which spoiler alert?

8:47[Aleya Harris]: All analysts are in the business of doing. [Aleya Harris]: That's why you're analyzing things in first place because you're trying to make something [Aleya Harris]: happen. [Aleya Harris]: You're trying to illustrate, hey, something's going on. [Aleya Harris]: There's connections that need to be made here and there's things that need to be done [Aleya Harris]: because of these connections. [Tim Wilson]: I mean, not to over-index to that story, but the world of overcoming obstacle, you had [Tim Wilson]: a, I don't know if you could fully plot a hero's journey story out of it, but is there [Tim Wilson]: a part of it too that even as you're telling the story, I was finding myself saying, well, [Tim Wilson]: I know where we ended because you're not doing that anymore.

9:28[Tim Wilson]: So I'm listening, because it's got a narrative form, I have no idea if this is right or not, [Aleya Harris]: I know it's going somewhere, because it's a narrative, I know it's going somewhere. [Tim Wilson]: So I have to be on the edge of my seat because I know, whereas if I'm looking at a chart [Tim Wilson]: or I'm getting the weekly readout, there's this nature of, and then there's going to [Tim Wilson]: be another slide and then there's going to be more data where you clearly with a story [Tim Wilson]: you're on a progression to somewhere, which makes it easier for the audience to pay attention.

10:10[Aleya Harris]: Stories, unless you're like Uncle Bob at Thanksgiving, which I talk about all the time, and I had [Aleya Harris]: an Uncle Bob. [Aleya Harris]: Uncle Bob wasn't actually the problem, Uncle Bill was the actual problem, Uncle Bob was [Aleya Harris]: fine. [Aleya Harris]: I have Uncle Bob and Uncle Bill. [Aleya Harris]: Uncle Bill was a real long-winded, but anyways, I digress about my uncles. [Aleya Harris]: Unless you're that person at Thanksgiving or insert holiday dinner here where you're [Aleya Harris]: just like, oh my God, you're talking about absolutely nothing, this isn't a story, this [Aleya Harris]: is word vomit, you know that if someone is telling you something in what you said was [Aleya Harris]: the magic words, a recognizable story structure, you're hooked.

10:48[Aleya Harris]: So when people say story is important, they think words are more important than numbers. [Aleya Harris]: That's what they hear, that it's words that are important and words are important, but [Aleya Harris]: it's not just words, it's words put in a certain sequence, in a certain framework, in [Aleya Harris]: a storytelling framework because that's how our brains work. [Aleya Harris]: So yes, you knew there was going to be a payoff because I intentionally was telling it in [Aleya Harris]: a storytelling framework.

11:19[Aleya Harris]: You knew, oh, this is familiar, this feels like a movie I have seen, a book I have read. [Aleya Harris]: She, unless she's like really bad at what she does, is not going to leave me hanging [Aleya Harris]: and just being like, yes, so what were we talking about, I just wanted to tell you that, like, [Aleya Harris]: I thought like pajamas are cool, like, you know what I mean? [Aleya Harris]: Like you knew I was going somewhere with this because I used something that your brain recognized, [Aleya Harris]: which meant that you were paying more attention, you were also cataloging the details of the [Aleya Harris]: story just in case they were important later, which is what you want people to do with your [Aleya Harris]: data.

11:56[Aleya Harris]: What do you need them to understand, know, and believe about this data that you're weaving [Aleya Harris]: into a story because it's important for them to use it to make decisions with later. [Aleya Harris]: So you've entered into my very geeky favorite territory of storytelling frameworks because [Aleya Harris]: stories all exist in a framework, good stories. [Aleya Harris]: The most popular one that we deal with is the hero's journey, like what you mentioned, [Aleya Harris]: spot on.

12:23[Aleya Harris]: There are lots of other types of frameworks and each framework allows you to elicit a [Aleya Harris]: different type of response and help people to behave in a different way that you get [Aleya Harris]: to, this sounds a little bit like a bit of work with me, you get to control because you [Aleya Harris]: are controlling the story structure, you control the story structure, you understand the certain [Aleya Harris]: beliefs that people have and they hold as they walk through the world, which means that [Aleya Harris]: you can control the messages and the narrative you give around certain data so that you get [Aleya Harris]: the end result that you're looking for.

13:02[Michael Helbling]: Tim, here's a common measurement problem. [Michael Helbling]: The tracking event you care about does not always have the user information you need. [Michael Helbling]: Right. [Michael Helbling]: You can't identify as themselves once, maybe with an email or phone number, but later events [Tim Wilson]: may come through with missing or incomplete data and that's what Stap and Richard is [Michael Helbling]: designed to help with. [Michael Helbling]: It's a state power-up that securely stores selected user data from incoming requests [Michael Helbling]: and uses it to enrich future events when information is missing.

13:28[Tim Wilson]: So instead of every event standing alone, and Richard can help connect activity across [Tim Wilson]: sessions, devices, and even online and offline touch points. [Michael Helbling]: Exactly. [Michael Helbling]: That means better event match quality, stronger attribution, and a clearer view of the full [Michael Helbling]: customer journey. [Tim Wilson]: And importantly, Enricher is built with privacy and consent in mind, including settings that [Tim Wilson]: align enrichment cookies with your site's marketing consent preferences.

13:51[Michael Helbling]: And teams can even upload historical data from tools like Shopify, Clavio, CRM exports, [Michael Helbling]: or offline customer lists. [Michael Helbling]: So if your measurement has gaps, Stap and Richard can help fill them responsibly. [Michael Helbling]: Use the link in the podcast description and check out [Michael Helbling]: Stape Enricher today. [Tim Wilson]: Michael, Ask Why's Prism version 3.0 is here and it officially turns the analyst into the [Tim Wilson]: admin.

14:20[Michael Helbling]: Ooh, I have always wanted power. [Michael Helbling]: Not delete the database power, more like stop asking me which revenue number is real power. [Michael Helbling]: Exactly. [Tim Wilson]: With Ask-Y.ai, Prism becomes a real workspace platform. [Michael Helbling]: You manage the data, control the context, and empower users wherever they work. [Michael Helbling]: So I'm not just answering questions, I'm curating intelligence. [Michael Helbling]: Yes, the new memory portal is mission control for what your agents know about your business.

14:50[Michael Helbling]: Meaning I can search the memory, endorse what's right, reject what's wrong, and tune it in [Michael Helbling]: plain English. [Michael Helbling]: Yep. [Michael Helbling]: Importance, trust, and decay scores adjust automatically. [Michael Helbling]: Ooh, decay scores. [Michael Helbling]: Finally, a polite way to say this metric definition has gone bad in the fridge. [Michael Helbling]: And context notes are now refreshable. [Tim Wilson]: Upload playbooks, call transcripts, glossaries, business rules, then refresh them instantly [Tim Wilson]: or on a schedule.

15:16[Michael Helbling]: I like that. [Michael Helbling]: So no more stale context haunting every analysis like a ghost with a spreadsheet. [Tim Wilson]: Go to ask-y.ai and join the wait list and use the code APH to get up at the top of that [Tim Wilson]: list. [Michael Helbling]: That's ask-y.ai with code APH. [Moe Kiss]: Can I dig into that a little bit? [Moe Kiss]: Because I'm just going to talk about the problem out loud and then we can kind of have a bit [Moe Kiss]: of a discussion about it.

15:43[Moe Kiss]: One of the things that I observe with data people is that they think the data should [Moe Kiss]: speak for itself, right? [Moe Kiss]: And what we're discussing here is really that the narrative in the story is the more [Moe Kiss]: important component. [Moe Kiss]: But how do you think data people then weave the data into the story successfully? [Moe Kiss]: Because obviously that's the specialized skill that we bring to the table. [Moe Kiss]: That's the information that folks don't have.

16:08[Moe Kiss]: And they might not remember all of the data points. [Moe Kiss]: You want them to remember the story, but how do they pull those things together well? [Tim Wilson]: Well, I'd also say they're expected to bring the data. [Tim Wilson]: A lot of times they're dealing with kind of the norms of the organization. [Tim Wilson]: If they showed up and went, no data compelling story, that feels super, super risky. [Tim Wilson]: So yeah, that's my addendum to your question.

16:31[Aleya Harris]: I love your question, and it is definitely how data people think. [Aleya Harris]: And it is a fundamentally flawed question in its structure. [Aleya Harris]: And I'm very glad you asked it this way because this is how it's asked all the time. [Aleya Harris]: How do I weave data into story? [Aleya Harris]: What you really need to ask yourself is, how do I create a story from this data? [Aleya Harris]: What is the data trying to tell me?

17:03[Aleya Harris]: What am I not only extrapolating, but how do I use the key numbers and the key points [Aleya Harris]: along the journey of what people need to do in order to use this data? [Aleya Harris]: So when you're thinking of a perspective, let's say you have a dashboard, [Aleya Harris]: you have website analytics in front of you, or you have any data set, really. [Aleya Harris]: And you guys have actually the hard job because you have to know all of the technical part.

17:33[Aleya Harris]: And you're like, great, I just spent a longer than necessary, [Aleya Harris]: exorbitant amount of time pulling together this data, making sure it's clean, [Aleya Harris]: making sure it's correct, making sure it's usable data. [Aleya Harris]: And now I got to explain it to you, which is where I think some of this data [Aleya Harris]: should speak for itself comes from because I'm done. [Aleya Harris]: I am now done with this. [Aleya Harris]: Now shouldn't this be your job when actually, no, it's not.

17:53[Aleya Harris]: You put a bow on your work by saying, OK, let me take a deep breath. [Aleya Harris]: I now have this information. [Aleya Harris]: What am I going to do with this? [Aleya Harris]: If I have this information, how am I using this to make business decisions? [Aleya Harris]: How should somebody use this to make business decisions? [Aleya Harris]: If I have SEO metrics, I have a bunch of, you know, these are just hot keywords. [Aleya Harris]: These are how people are finding you.

18:16[Aleya Harris]: This is the search. [Aleya Harris]: What is this really saying? [Aleya Harris]: Well, it's saying this is the problem. [Aleya Harris]: This is the solution. [Aleya Harris]: This is where we are in the journey. [Aleya Harris]: This is where we're trying to go. [Aleya Harris]: The challenge with a lot of data people is you are the smartest person in the room. [Aleya Harris]: I said it. [Aleya Harris]: I'm going to keep saying it. [Aleya Harris]: I said it in the conference.

18:38[Aleya Harris]: I'm going to say it again. [Aleya Harris]: Right. [Aleya Harris]: And so you're like, well, isn't it obvious? [Aleya Harris]: Isn't it obvious what this says? [Aleya Harris]: No, ma'am, it's not. [Aleya Harris]: Sheila, it's not obvious to someone who is not you. [Aleya Harris]: So you need to make what is obvious to you obvious to other people. [Aleya Harris]: And the way that you do that is by busting out of your silo and asking questions that [Aleya Harris]: might even seem unrelated to your data.

19:12[Aleya Harris]: Like, what are our business goals? [Aleya Harris]: What are you trying to do with the website? [Aleya Harris]: What are our larger marketing initiatives for this next year? [Aleya Harris]: Right. [Aleya Harris]: What are we struggling with as a company? [Aleya Harris]: And then you look at the data and you're like, OK, I got it. [Aleya Harris]: So like this happened to me where I do not pretend to be an analyst, nor to play one [Aleya Harris]: on TV.

19:34[Aleya Harris]: So let's get this real clear before this next story. [Aleya Harris]: But I know enough to make me dangerous. [Aleya Harris]: And I got from my SEO person a very nice dashboard of which he didn't do what I said. [Aleya Harris]: And he just sent me a bunch of keywords and numbers and rankings and all of this stuff. [Aleya Harris]: And I looked at it and I said, no wonder why all of our marketing is going nowhere. [Aleya Harris]: We're doing because he goes, you're doing great.

20:04[Aleya Harris]: You're ranking really well for I'm not going to use actual keywords. [Aleya Harris]: But I want to out the company for apples and oranges and plums. [Aleya Harris]: That's awesome. [Aleya Harris]: You're a fruit seller, right? [Aleya Harris]: You want to be waiting for apples, oranges and plums. [Aleya Harris]: This is great. [Aleya Harris]: To which I replied to him the equivalent of, well, we're actually not like a fruit seller [Aleya Harris]: in that we want to want to be known as a fruit seller.

20:33[Aleya Harris]: We're actually like a fruit package. [Aleya Harris]: Like we sell the fruit packaging like the bowls, not the fruit. [Aleya Harris]: So ranking for apples and oranges and plums might sound like we're the number one person [Aleya Harris]: that when you Google apples, you're going to find that doesn't make us anybody. [Aleya Harris]: So you then as the SEO person need to be able to look at data because you know that we actually [Aleya Harris]: want to be ranked for the bowls, not the apples.

21:05[Aleya Harris]: And it'd be like, oh, I understand our marketing objectives. [Aleya Harris]: I understand our business objectives. [Aleya Harris]: I actually know that this data is bad, says bad things, even though we're number one. [Aleya Harris]: Page one, the SERP is bang and our name is everywhere for the wrong thing. [Aleya Harris]: Our content strategy was wrong and bad and all over the place. [Aleya Harris]: And wouldn't it have been nice for my SEO person to know that before they came to me [Aleya Harris]: who was the CMO?

21:30[Aleya Harris]: So excited about their data. [Tim Wilson]: I mean, I think you're hitting on some like very fundamental things. [Tim Wilson]: I think there are times where it's, I have this data, I have been told to crunch this [Tim Wilson]: data. [Tim Wilson]: I'm the expert on this data. [Tim Wilson]: And therefore I need to crunch the data until I find something that I can slap a label of [Tim Wilson]: a story onto. [Tim Wilson]: And I will claim hard that there is a lot of data that is just showing things are going [Tim Wilson]: as they expected.

22:00[Tim Wilson]: And that's like a massive issue with the industry at large is there's a belief that if you pulverize [Tim Wilson]: the data enough, something will emerge. [Tim Wilson]: And I think analysts wind up in this spot saying, well, I got to do a deliverable. [Tim Wilson]: And so then they start slapping. [Tim Wilson]: What story can I tell, but their story winds up being, oh, look, you're ranking for this [Tim Wilson]: irrelevant fruit, you're ranking for fruit when that's not what you're selling.

22:25[Tim Wilson]: But that kind of pairs with the flip side, like really asking not starting with, not [Tim Wilson]: even starting with the data, I would think it's not start with the data and what stories [Tim Wilson]: is telling me. [Tim Wilson]: It's starting with what is the real problem I'm trying to solve or what is the real idea [Tim Wilson]: that I'm trying to validate? [Tim Wilson]: To me that, and then I may go to the data, but then I've got kind of the kernel of a [Tim Wilson]: story because I'm trying to, I kind of know what the front, kind of what a couple of alternate [Tim Wilson]: endings, the ending is either go spend more money there or spend less money there or whatever [Tim Wilson]: it is.

23:01[Tim Wilson]: I've kind of outlined some possible endings to the story. [Tim Wilson]: Then I'm using the data or the experiment or the research, whatever it is, I think. [Tim Wilson]: I mean, I just feel like analysts find themselves saying, they sort of paint themselves into [Tim Wilson]: a corner and then they say, well, I don't know, I don't have a story to tell. [Tim Wilson]: It's like, well, yeah, because you kind of painted yourself into a corner to start with.

23:23[Tim Wilson]: I got triggered on a few fronts. [Aleya Harris]: You know, I don't know, I didn't know analysts were so judgy. [Tim Wilson]: I'm pretty judgy. [Tim Wilson]: That's not, that's not paying too broadly, but I say that, I say that in the way like [Aleya Harris]: you're judging your story as your data is bad, is it telling like a bad or unnecessary story? [Aleya Harris]: Just tell the story. [Aleya Harris]: Tell me what the story actually is and allow it to be.

23:59[Aleya Harris]: Tell me what then you are now, what does that make you as an analyst more curious about? [Aleya Harris]: Okay, everything's going like how it's supposed to. [Aleya Harris]: Is this the direction that we want to take it for the next five, 10 years? [Aleya Harris]: Tell me now, CMO, this direct, this is what you told me you wanted to know. [Aleya Harris]: We're ranking for these things. [Aleya Harris]: We're ranking for those things.

24:25[Aleya Harris]: It's all good. [Aleya Harris]: I can leave it at that. [Aleya Harris]: Or I could say, yeah, we're ranking for these things. [Aleya Harris]: And what does that mean? [Aleya Harris]: Often analysts are supposed to be the source of truth and I would love, would have loved [Aleya Harris]: it and love it more when I'm working a fractional basis as a CMO. [Aleya Harris]: If analysts asked me more questions, that, I mean, I guess depends on the personality [Aleya Harris]: of whoever you work for, right?

24:54[Aleya Harris]: But if the analysts that I have had had been like, great, here's the information. [Aleya Harris]: It's what we expected. [Aleya Harris]: This is ranking here. [Aleya Harris]: This is what this is saying. [Aleya Harris]: This is the story that is telling the story that we are the best in the market. [Aleya Harris]: We are the worst in the market. [Aleya Harris]: We're ranking high for these keywords. [Aleya Harris]: The money that you wanted to spend on additional, whatever you can spend, great.

25:19[Aleya Harris]: I would love then the next thing that it'd be like, now tell me, this is great for right [Aleya Harris]: now. [Aleya Harris]: What about next quarter? [Aleya Harris]: Is this what we're still trying to do because then I can start monitoring this in place [Aleya Harris]: and then use your freaking brain to do the analysis, this is how you get to do the analysis [Aleya Harris]: that you want to do by asking you the questions in advance and not being so reactionary.

25:44[Aleya Harris]: So then you're not just the storyteller, you then become the story author, which makes [Aleya Harris]: you a more valuable employee for me as a marketing lead because you're now my partner. [Aleya Harris]: You're the person who is asking because I might know what I'm doing, but I might not [Aleya Harris]: know what I need to be looking at to know in advance what the signals are to tell me [Aleya Harris]: if this I should be moving in this direction.

26:08[Aleya Harris]: If if I'm moving in a certain direction, the early signs that it's working or not working, [Aleya Harris]: you know that. [Aleya Harris]: So ask me the question so you can know what to monitor. [Aleya Harris]: So you're not coming back to me every month saying looks great because I've had that too. [Tim Wilson]: It's annoying. [Tim Wilson]: I might have tried to start an entire consultancy based on the premise that you need to do more [Tim Wilson]: talking and interrogating of the ideas of the people in the company and before you jumped [Tim Wilson]: into the data.

26:35[Tim Wilson]: So I am my my heart is singing because you just sort of put on another hat of like the [Tim Wilson]: CMO hat. [Tim Wilson]: I think analysts, we have there's this wiring of listening for a data poll and wanting to [Tim Wilson]: get out of the room as fast as possible. [Tim Wilson]: Like you start to say, well, I kind of think our SEO and they're like, great, I can go [Tim Wilson]: pull an SEO report as opposed to stopping and saying, I don't think you really give two [Tim Wilson]: shits about your SEO.

27:02[Tim Wilson]: Like what are you really trying to do? [Tim Wilson]: You're trying to do X and Y and Z and and I think that the business, the CMOs and the [Tim Wilson]: other business partners, they try to meet the analysts where they are by using their terminology [Tim Wilson]: and the analysts mishear that as being overly prescriptive. [Aleya Harris]: Okay. [Tim Wilson]: Can I pivot things a little bit? [Moe Kiss]: That's okay. [Aleya Harris]: I'm right there with you.

27:27[Moe Kiss]: You just said something to him that I want to I want to dig into you. [Moe Kiss]: They want to get out of the room as quickly as possible. [Moe Kiss]: And one of the things that I just like really observed both watching you present and talking [Moe Kiss]: to you now is like this absolutely infectious enthusiasm and just like Tim said in the intro, [Moe Kiss]: right? [Moe Kiss]: Like you own the stage. [Moe Kiss]: And I suppose one of the things I'd love to get into is like, yes, the story is important, [Moe Kiss]: but it's also how you tell it, especially if it's like in a presentation format.

28:03[Moe Kiss]: So like how did you develop that skill? [Moe Kiss]: Like I'm someone who didn't used to do public speaking. [Moe Kiss]: I was petrified of public speaking. [Moe Kiss]: I had to really put in a lot of energy and learn how to do it. [Moe Kiss]: And I feel like maybe we had a similar tact where like, I just took all my nervous energy [Moe Kiss]: and tried to like channel it into enthusiasm. [Moe Kiss]: But I do feel like there are so many, so many folks who like, it is such a daunting thing.

28:28[Moe Kiss]: And like, if you tell the story in a really average way, people probably still won't listen, [Moe Kiss]: right? [Moe Kiss]: Like they might remember a bit of it, but it's like so much of why you're persuasive [Moe Kiss]: is how you tell it. [Moe Kiss]: So like, can you share like your tips and tricks on that part? [Aleya Harris]: Well, first, that is true. [Aleya Harris]: But the framework, once you learn the actual storytelling frameworks, it does a lot of [Aleya Harris]: heavy lifting for you.

28:52[Aleya Harris]: Even if you have a monotone voice, even if you're not super energetic, the framework [Aleya Harris]: does a lot of heavy lifting. [Aleya Harris]: So when I work with people and I help them put together their keynotes and I help them [Aleya Harris]: get on stage and feel confident on stage, I always ask them to create videos and we [Aleya Harris]: could cheek them and they're in delivery and the very next thing I say is, and don't [Aleya Harris]: try to be me because if you have a great gregarious personality, then great.

29:25[Aleya Harris]: Like I am like this all the time. [Aleya Harris]: I don't, this is not like how I am on stage, how I am on the body. [Aleya Harris]: I'm like this all the time. [Aleya Harris]: It's a lot. [Aleya Harris]: I know, but it's, it's, it's up to how I am on stage because that's how I am in life. [Aleya Harris]: I don't want an introvert who is normally a much more serious, you know, put together [Aleya Harris]: individual to try to then emulate my style.

29:51[Aleya Harris]: They're going to be awkward and everyone's going to feel awkward in the audience. [Aleya Harris]: Right. [Aleya Harris]: That's not going to work. [Aleya Harris]: So I want them to use a storytelling structure and then find their voice. [Aleya Harris]: A lot of times people feel insecure with speaking because there's a lack of clarity [Aleya Harris]: and a lack of clarity causes and or masquerades as a lack of confidence. [Aleya Harris]: And there's more that you need to be clear on than you think that you do.

30:23[Aleya Harris]: It's not just, what am I going to say? [Aleya Harris]: Like, what am I bullet points? [Aleya Harris]: What's my message? [Aleya Harris]: Like that's very important, but you need the more data points. [Aleya Harris]: You can be clear on having, I couldn't help myself, the better. [Aleya Harris]: So yes, what is your message? [Aleya Harris]: Are you crystal clear? [Aleya Harris]: But why are you delivering that message? [Aleya Harris]: Why are you standing in that room right now?

30:48[Aleya Harris]: Why are you the only person that can deliver that message right now to these human beings? [Aleya Harris]: Why do you deserve to be listened to? [Aleya Harris]: Why is that message at this time going to cause someone else to participate [Aleya Harris]: in their own transformation? [Aleya Harris]: Those are the types of things you get clear on. [Aleya Harris]: And so it doesn't matter whether you are a jokester. [Aleya Harris]: It doesn't matter if you're serious.

31:13[Aleya Harris]: It doesn't matter if you have some other personality type. [Aleya Harris]: If you are clear on why on the wise, you're clear on the what, [Aleya Harris]: which most people actually are a lot clearer on the what than they give themselves credit for, right? [Aleya Harris]: Like, you know what you're going to say is not that's actually the easiest part. [Aleya Harris]: It's the wise that they need to work out. [Aleya Harris]: And then once you do that, then you get clear on what I do with my hands, right?

31:46[Aleya Harris]: Your physical body in space. [Aleya Harris]: How do I want to show up? [Aleya Harris]: If I show up with my hands like this or something like this, how will I be perceived? [Aleya Harris]: Okay, if I show up still me, but I hold my hands out, how am I perceived? [Aleya Harris]: And you start then becoming curious about how bodies look in space. [Aleya Harris]: Like you walk down the street and you see someone with their hands on their hips.

32:13[Aleya Harris]: What do you think that they're feeling? [Aleya Harris]: You walk down, you see someone like waving their hands, flailing in the air. [Aleya Harris]: What do you think that they're feeling? [Aleya Harris]: Right? [Aleya Harris]: And you start understanding, oh, I'm actually clear on the story that bodies send. [Aleya Harris]: So now I'm clear how to hold myself in space. [Aleya Harris]: And now I'm clear on why I'm there. [Aleya Harris]: I'm clear on what I'm saying.

32:36[Aleya Harris]: And most importantly, I am clear that, and this is true again, no matter what you're talking about. [Aleya Harris]: I am clear that in this moment, at this time, I will make a difference in someone else's life [Aleya Harris]: with what comes out of my mouth. [Aleya Harris]: I will pause it, period, not trying to like gas you up. [Aleya Harris]: It's just kind of like it is what it is. [Aleya Harris]: We can get metaphysical about it if you want to.

33:03[Aleya Harris]: Just believe me, trust me, this is not that long of a podcast. [Aleya Harris]: You will make a difference in someone's life with whatever's coming out of your mouth right now. [Aleya Harris]: So don't worry about you being effective or not. [Aleya Harris]: Worry about the other stuff and getting clear on how you will be the most effective you can possibly be [Aleya Harris]: on that stage with whatever time that you are given. [Aleya Harris]: And everything else will work itself out.

33:29[Aleya Harris]: It's amazing as I work through these things with people, with my clients, the clearer we are, [Aleya Harris]: the more confident they get. [Aleya Harris]: In the beginning of my program, I don't talk at all about how much your rates should be, [Aleya Harris]: when you charge a speak, I don't talk about speaking goals, I'll talk about another. [Aleya Harris]: There's no goal setting until the end. [Aleya Harris]: And I one time had a client ask me or give me feedback, like, well, that seems a little backwards.

33:58[Aleya Harris]: Like I'm used to, you know, doing goal setting at the beginning and it would have been really nice [Aleya Harris]: to have my goal set in the beginning. [Aleya Harris]: And I said, I get that, I type A too. [Aleya Harris]: But if I asked you in the beginning, when you were unclear about who you were, why you were there, [Aleya Harris]: if you had value, if your stories mattered, if you mattered and you were having like an existential crisis [Aleya Harris]: that you didn't even know you were having, and I asked you how much you should charge to be on that stage, [Aleya Harris]: you would have said I should pay them to let me have the honor of opening my mouth.

34:27[Aleya Harris]: Now you're sitting here asking me if you should start off at five or $10,000 to charge, [Aleya Harris]: to allow them to earn the right to listen to your wisdom, [Aleya Harris]: all because you got a lot clear on those things that I was talking about. [Tim Wilson]: So that is you and just that framing is kind of around the like public speaking keynote, [Tim Wilson]: you know, audience sharing information. [Tim Wilson]: I assume that clients come out of that and it fundamentally changes the way that they, [Tim Wilson]: even in a conference room with five people or even potentially even on a Zoom call, how they put together, [Tim Wilson]: like it scales up and down, right?

35:15[Tim Wilson]: Like when presenting, oh, I'm just an analyst and I'm just delivering this to, you know, the marketing team, [Tim Wilson]: it's not a public conference keynote, but I guess two questions, all this still absolutely applies, [Tim Wilson]: I'm 100% sure, but how do we get over the hurdle of saying, but this is just one presentation, [Tim Wilson]: I don't have, I can't invest the time and the effort to turn this into a proper story, [Tim Wilson]: I don't have the capacity.

35:53[Tim Wilson]: I have thoughts on what I think the answer is to that, but I'd love to hear what you think. [Aleya Harris]: First of all, you're like, I'm so sure I'm like, are you there? [Aleya Harris]: You don't sound sure. [Aleya Harris]: People think that storytelling takes a really long time and that's actually very much not true [Aleya Harris]: because of what I was talking about before, frameworks. [Aleya Harris]: Once you know the framework, you start thinking, talking, acting in story without even realizing it.

36:24[Aleya Harris]: So it's more about an investment. [Aleya Harris]: You had a great question, does this apply to me? [Aleya Harris]: I have a better question. [Aleya Harris]: Can you afford to not invest in other people understanding what the hell you're talking about? [Tim Wilson]: Well, that tends to be my, when people are like, I'm too busy, I just have to get stuff out the door [Tim Wilson]: and it's like, well, how's that working out for you? [Tim Wilson]: You're training your business partners that you're just there to crank out as much volume as possible.

36:52[Tim Wilson]: And they're bored, they don't know what to do with it, they can't use it and trying to. [Aleya Harris]: But I think the other thing you're hitting on there is that, yeah, probably the first time you got to find the time to do a better job [Tim Wilson]: and it's not going to be perfect, but it will be better. [Tim Wilson]: And by the time you've done it, I love the way you framed it as saying, [Tim Wilson]: you get to where you just see it and think in those mode, in that mode, [Tim Wilson]: it totally makes sense that it then becomes easier because you're not trying to make a bunch of slides [Tim Wilson]: and then go back through the slides and rearrange the slides and figure out what else you should add and not take something away.

37:32[Tim Wilson]: Because you're kind of, you have the story and then it, I assume it's been pretty quick to then say, [Tim Wilson]: okay, now I just got to articulate, give the visual backup to it. [Aleya Harris]: When you're tweaking and re-tweaking and tweaking, tweaking and then you do the tweaks for the tweak-tweak-tweak-tweak, [Aleya Harris]: which is like the tweak dance that everybody does, that means that something fundamentally is wrong. [Aleya Harris]: That means that fundamentally you are insecure about the structure, the way you're going to present this information.

38:02[Aleya Harris]: You don't know what or why? [Aleya Harris]: Yeah, you don't know what, you don't know why, you don't know how, you don't know nothing. [Aleya Harris]: All you know is you got some numbers that somebody asked you to tell them about and you have no idea how to do that. [Aleya Harris]: Just how numbers work in a very logical way, stories are the same. [Aleya Harris]: People often view them as like opposites, like words and numbers, you know, require different parts of your brain.

38:35[Aleya Harris]: And like what's easier, trying to like be a number person and then transform yourself into a word person, [Aleya Harris]: or is it trying to make repeatable, predictable processes out of the way that words work? [Aleya Harris]: I don't even think we should do the second one, and that's by using structures and framers that are repeatable, you know, [Aleya Harris]: and it's not like, oh yeah, they work like this is the new 2026 TikTok friend, no, they work for Eon, like millennia, right?

39:12[Aleya Harris]: We've been using the same frameworks to communicate effectively with each other. [Aleya Harris]: And so once you realize that, you're like, oh yeah, I can use a story framework because it doesn't sound so like woo woo, [Aleya Harris]: oh that's what marketing like the markers do, like no, it's how an effective leader communicates. [Aleya Harris]: And then if you're money motivated, like I am thinking about it this way, if you want people to understand you as a strategic thinker, [Aleya Harris]: if you want people to understand you as a true people data and information leader, you should use story.

39:56[Aleya Harris]: Because strategy is just the ability to put a bunch of random stuff together in a framework and make it work. [Aleya Harris]: How are we getting from point A to point B? Oh my god, doesn't that sound like once upon a time all the way to the end? [Aleya Harris]: So tell me if you were a data person and you're listening, like I feel like you're going to have a lot of folks nodding along to everything you're saying, [Aleya Harris]: but like let's say tomorrow- I should hope so, and if you're not, rewind it, listen again, email me if you have questions, [Aleya Harris]: because if you're not nodding, I've missed you and we're trying to bring everyone along on this journey.

40:35[Moe Kiss]: Do continue Moe. I love that, I love that though. [Moe Kiss]: So tomorrow you're sitting down at your desk or today you've listened to the episode and you're like okay, but practically how do I do this, right? [Moe Kiss]: Like how do I sit down? I've got a presentation I'm doing next week for some stakeholders on analysis of how people are using a particular product on our site. [Moe Kiss]: Like what do you recommend they do as they're sitting there thinking through how to craft that story?

41:04[Tim Wilson]: Okay, if it's for real tomorrow, we ain't got a lot of time, so we'll give you the short short version. [Tim Wilson]: Well, they're sitting down tomorrow, the presentation is not for a week or two. [Tim Wilson]: Yeah, yeah, okay, there we go, there we go, there we go, there we go. [Aleya Harris]: I would recommend you start simple, Phil. What's the beginning, middle, and end of the, of how the information should be used? [Aleya Harris]: Because you're not telling a story just, let me back up.

41:33[Aleya Harris]: When you're telling a story, you can tell a flat story that no one cares about, which I don't recommend. [Aleya Harris]: I don't recommend you like, you like, say, this morning I woke up, I did my skincare, and then I got dressed and I left the house. [Aleya Harris]: The end. Like what? Like that's not even, it doesn't have the elements. I mean, technically at the beginning I woke up and I said the end, [Aleya Harris]: but there's no purpose to the story. It's worth thinking more when we think of stories more like Aesop Fable's kind of situation, [Aleya Harris]: where there's some lesson to be gleaned and there's a reason why you're telling a story.

42:16[Aleya Harris]: So the first thing you have to sit down and figure out is why the heck am I talking? [Aleya Harris]: Why am I opening? Besides the fact that like, this is a weekly meeting and like I'm supposed to be here every week. [Aleya Harris]: Like, why am I really talking? That is what I call your controlling idea. [Aleya Harris]: What is the subject that you're talking about? And what is your point of view? [Aleya Harris]: Because I can talk about like, oh, this, you know, is a dashboard and this means our product is selling well.

42:50[Aleya Harris]: Great. What is your point of view based on the brain that is sitting between your two ears? [Aleya Harris]: That is the controlling idea of your story. Then you say, okay, I have the point of view like, [Aleya Harris]: this product is selling well based on the data that I see that I'm reporting this month. However, [Aleya Harris]: my point of view is actually it's our dog. It's our worst seller. We're having a blip month, [Aleya Harris]: because I know we have this major client come in and it's skewing the data. So it shows like, [Aleya Harris]: this is our best product ever. But really, if you remove this outlier, this is actually our [Aleya Harris]: worst product. And as opposed to the recommendation of pumping more marketing dollars into this product, [Aleya Harris]: I actually think that we should explore either sunsetting it or repositioning it. That's my point of view.

43:46[Aleya Harris]: How do I know that? Because I looked at the data. Then you're like, okay, I have my controlling idea. [Aleya Harris]: A simple story structure is what is the problem? What do we learn from this problem? [Aleya Harris]: And how does that relate to the broader context? So the problem is, if I was going to tell the same [Aleya Harris]: story, well, you start kind of like in your ordinary world or whatever is going on normally, [Aleya Harris]: right? So the normal thing is that I'm happening is like, here I am, here's the data, here's what it [Aleya Harris]: here's saying this product is going gangbusters. But the problem is we're not looking at the full [Aleya Harris]: set of data. And the problem is our own success that we have this great client. But my concern is [Aleya Harris]: that we don't have a reputable predictable way of bringing in more whale clients like this one who [Aleya Harris]: are going to regularly buy this product. So the data is skewed. So what we can learn is the data [Aleya Harris]: is skewed, we need to get underneath this data to see what it really is telling us and actually

44:58[Aleya Harris]: learn what our highest selling top three, whatever the thing is that we're supposed to be doing here [Aleya Harris]: is so that we can put our marketing dollars in a place that matters, either making a reputable [Aleya Harris]: process for landing more whale clients that we're going to buy more of this thing, or putting more [Aleya Harris]: money behind the other top three who are regularly performing well. Because I know that our company's [Aleya Harris]: goal is, in fact, to sell and to go into the direction where we're selling more and more and [Aleya Harris]: more of this product. My recommendation is that we, in fact, focus our marketing dollars and efforts [Aleya Harris]: on expanding this product line to get more clients to buy it, whatever it is.

45:47[Aleya Harris]: That's how I would love if analysts came to me. [Tim Wilson]: That was like a, that wanted to be like a detailed scenario, but I kind of latched on to your [Tim Wilson]: why am I, why am I being asked to, why am I telling the store, why am I presenting? Like, [Tim Wilson]: and if it's, if my answer, if the analyst can't answer the question other than saying, well, [Tim Wilson]: it's the weekly meeting. And I could, I could see it's like, well, next week you're kind of screwed, [Tim Wilson]: but maybe this is encouraging you for the next time to actually go ask more questions so that [Tim Wilson]: you can, like if, if you can't, that may be really uncomfortable for an analyst to say, [Tim Wilson]: I don't know. It's just because I've been told to give the campaign [Tim Wilson]: readout and I don't, and it's, and it's too late. I could be like, well, then you better look ahead [Tim Wilson]: for the next one and kind of lay the, lay the groundwork a little more effectively with the [Tim Wilson]: questions you're asking. I mean, and it doesn't give you a sense of purpose. Like for me, it

46:50[Aleya Harris]: drive me back to do crazy to have my thought that my job was just crunching numbers floating around [Aleya Harris]: in a vacuum. Like when you understand how what you do on a daily basis impacts everyone that you [Aleya Harris]: work with by putting money in the company's coffers or not, doesn't that, that feels, that [Aleya Harris]: would feel much more fulfilling to me. I would get more joy out of my work if I, if I knew that. [Tim Wilson]: I think it should. I will, my other, my cynical rant number like four, I think analysts let [Tim Wilson]: themselves get, they tell themselves the story that that's just my job is just to pull the [Tim Wilson]: numbers and just to present them. And then they tell themselves the story. This won't be, if I come [Tim Wilson]: with a point of view, well, somebody may disagree with that. And then I'm going to have to have a [Tim Wilson]: conversation with them. And it may be that my point of view is actually wrong. And it's scary.

47:50[Tim Wilson]: And it's like, no, no, no, I just want to pull the numbers and let the, let my business partners [Aleya Harris]: interpret it. So I'm very, this probably is snarky. And I get it. Like you're speaking for [Aleya Harris]: everyone else out there, but like when I was just the word analyst, that means that you're going to [Aleya Harris]: like analyze something and tell me, like if I go for an analysis, I'm assuming you're going to tell [Aleya Harris]: me the thing and tell me what's going on. You might not know how to fix it, right? You might not [Aleya Harris]: have all of the bells and like whistles in your toolbox to know how to fix it. But like if I go [Aleya Harris]: for a lab result, and like it just gives me all of like the blood count, like new numbers, I'm [Aleya Harris]: like, so like, do I have diabetes or not? That's a great analogy. Like if somebody goes in, you're [Tim Wilson]: like, sure, my chart notified me, but I actually want to talk to the person who can actually [Aleya Harris]: tell me how I should feel and what I should do. But case in point, the doctor is going to say like,

49:04[Aleya Harris]: okay, yes, you do have diabetes, here's your treatment plan, but I'm expecting someone giving [Aleya Harris]: me an analysis of the, of the results to do all that. But I mean, I need you to like, as my husband [Aleya Harris]: says, I'm always like, finish it. Like, like, like, tell me the fault of the thing. Well, and it, and [Tim Wilson]: this is, let's see if I can tell it generically, because it was at the conference where we saw you, [Tim Wilson]: and there was a session that made my blood boil, where what he's right now, some tea, all generic [Tim Wilson]: tea, but it's still, it'll be generic to be there. Jim Stern will be I wonder which one he was talking [Tim Wilson]: about. Because there's so much around AI, and somebody really stood up and proudly demonstrated [Tim Wilson]: how he had managed to set up, set up all these agents so that he could now take his weekly reports [Tim Wilson]: to all his clients. And I won't say what the reports were about, he was kind of a consultant, [Tim Wilson]: and he could just automate it and it would just like, spit the report out itself. And it's the

50:07[Tim Wilson]: classic, I feel like we're starting to, people are starting to realize, I like to think I was [Tim Wilson]: saying it pretty early, that people were putting volume over value and what he had done, he'd taken [Tim Wilson]: what he wasn't doing well, which this process he had that generated, it's like that SEO report [Tim Wilson]: you were describing earlier, and he said, aha, guess what I can do? I can do that faster and [Aleya Harris]: longer. And I'm like, that's not actually helpful, like there's no way. It's not. And I think he got [Tim Wilson]: excited because the side of him, like the tinkering and getting to like build, like sure, I like to [Tim Wilson]: bang out code and have it generate stuff. But we tell ourselves a story that, oh, I could even [Tim Wilson]: give it that it has to have a narrative form and it will generate a beginning and a middle and an [Aleya Harris]: end. And it's not useful. No, does it do what I said in the very beginning? Is it helping someone [Aleya Harris]: or something as a company participate in their own transformation? If it's not doing that, stop

51:12[Tim Wilson]: tinkering. But analysts will tell themselves, they'll tell themselves that it is. And then [Tim Wilson]: now the other side of them. Y'all lie to yourselves a lot, as my people do in this podcast episode. [Tim Wilson]: Other side of their mouth, they will complain about how my business partners don't know what [Tim Wilson]: they're doing. Yeah. So I don't think I was realizing this was going to be so much of me [Tim Wilson]: ranting. Can I ask, I had a more tactical... I'm actually here for it, Tim. I'm here for all of [Tim Wilson]: the rants. I'm thoroughly enjoying myself to continue. Listeners know that I'm not going to be [Tim Wilson]: the one who's positive about anything in a optimistic. But as you were... Because as you [Tim Wilson]: kind of work through that scenario and you kind of just made up kind of a silly one on the fly, [Aleya Harris]: how do you feel? I have occasionally said, I'm going to walk away. I've looked at the data.

52:01[Tim Wilson]: I'm tempted to start trying to make slides and make charts. But if I walk away, I've got to drive [Tim Wilson]: somewhere. Can I just out loud, not walking down the street waving my hands where people [Tim Wilson]: look at me funny? But can I just talk through what I think the story is and just keep talking [Tim Wilson]: through it? How do I tell this story in five minutes and keep doing that and iterating until [Tim Wilson]: I feel like I've found what it is on my actual point of view is like away from the computer?

52:35[Moe Kiss]: Tim, I feel like I do that with analysts a lot, where I'll be like, hey, you've written this [Moe Kiss]: summary up. I don't know what it's saying. I want you to pretend you're in the elevator with our [Moe Kiss]: COO. You've got two minutes from ground floor to seven. Why should he care about this? Tell me [Moe Kiss]: in your own words. And it's like when people say it out loud and they practice that story, [Moe Kiss]: I do feel like it gets clearer much faster. And you're like, and that doesn't match, that doesn't [Tim Wilson]: match your deck at all. Like what? It doesn't often match what they've written down.

53:09[Aleya Harris]: As people put in the deck, the things that they quote unquote should be saying. The things that [Aleya Harris]: feel very smart and listy. But the smartest people are the ones who can make things sound the simplest. [Aleya Harris]: And the actual way to showcase your intelligence is to make the dumbest person in the room [Aleya Harris]: understand the most complicated thing you do. So not saying that in this example, the CEO or [Aleya Harris]: whoever the dumbest person in the room, however, when it comes to data, they're probably not as [Moe Kiss]: great as you are. They probably don't have the depth of understanding because there are across [Moe Kiss]: so many things, right? So it's like you have to bring it up to like a different altitude [Moe Kiss]: because they don't have the same like subject matter expertise and like, yeah, [Tim Wilson]: like depth of the particular topic that you're discussing. Wow. Well, that is a great note saying [Tim Wilson]: that executives are stupid. No, that's not what we said. And that's where we're landing.

54:15[Tim Wilson]: But we are running short on time. I feel like I need to go like write down a few notes immediately [Tim Wilson]: following this because a few little light bulbs have gone on for specific mindsets and tactics [Tim Wilson]: and ways to think about this topic. So thank you. We could talk for another hour and a half. [Tim Wilson]: But it is time for us to move to a wrap. And the last thing we like to do on the show before we [Tim Wilson]: close out is go around and share a last call, something that might be of interest to our [Tim Wilson]: users. And Alea, you're our guest. Do you have a last call you'd like to share?

54:53[Aleya Harris]: I don't know if this will be of interest to your users or not. And it's seemingly unrelated. So, [Aleya Harris]: but work with me for a second. Okay. We've talked a lot about storytelling. We've talked a lot about [Aleya Harris]: words and making data and words play well together. We did touch a little teeny, teeny, [Aleya Harris]: teeny tiny bit on your body and how when you understand how to hold your body in space, [Aleya Harris]: you can more confidently tell a story. When I work with analysts, not with a lot of analysts, [Aleya Harris]: no matter how intelligent the words are that are coming out of their mouths, [Aleya Harris]: a lot of the times their body is saying the thing that you just said, Tim, [Aleya Harris]: please get me the hell out of this room. How fast can I get the hell out of this room?

55:50[Aleya Harris]: I don't even know why I have to be here. This damn weekly meeting could have been an email. [Aleya Harris]: I would have felt much more comfortable that way. So there was lots of somatic work out there. But [Aleya Harris]: one of the books, I like to have it on my desk, that seems, again, unrelated. And it's, how many [Aleya Harris]: pages is this one? It's not even, you don't even really read the whole thing. The whole thing is [Aleya Harris]: 80 pages. And it's a book by Louise Hay called Heal Your Body. And it's more of a reference than [Aleya Harris]: like, let me read every page. And it will go through and it talks about [Aleya Harris]: different things that you could have be dealing with, the root cause of where and how it gets [Aleya Harris]: stuck in your body and a mantra to release it. To make sure that expectations are clear, [Aleya Harris]: saying a mantra is not going to cure an incurable disease here. Like that's not where we're at.

56:52[Aleya Harris]: But I'm giving you a starting place to think about your words, yourself, your purpose a little [Aleya Harris]: bit differently. Like, so for example, like, let's say, oh, I feel like I flipped this open. I have [Aleya Harris]: people sometimes read the Bible, you flip it open to see whatever page is open. And like, [Aleya Harris]: that's what God wants us to kind of mean. Apparently, I opened up to see and it says cough. [Aleya Harris]: And it says, if you have a strong cough, it could mean you have a desire to bark at the world, [Aleya Harris]: see me, listen to me. Now, you could read that and say, that's a bunch of poop into dupes.

57:32[Aleya Harris]: I disagree. Or you can at least give a second where you're like, is there any truth to that? [Aleya Harris]: Do you don't have to tell anybody else what there is or not? I don't know. I'm not there. [Aleya Harris]: Which you, you listen to me and we, this is not a live conversation. This is asynchronous. [Aleya Harris]: Then next to that, it says, I am noticed and appreciated in the most positive ways I am loved. [Aleya Harris]: Now, I have a family member who has a chronic cough, not chronic sickness, not long COVID, [Aleya Harris]: just always kind of coughing, always clearing their throat.

58:11[Aleya Harris]: This person also is the person who, I don't know why they do this, but they always are, [Aleya Harris]: like, if we're walking in a group, they walk behind us. They're like, would prefer to not be seen. [Aleya Harris]: They're like chronically, like, almost like debilitatingly introverted at times. [Aleya Harris]: And then when I read this, and I didn't plan this, but this is what I opened up to, [Aleya Harris]: and it says, a desire to bark at the world, see me, listen to me. That makes sense to me.

58:39[Aleya Harris]: There's a kernel of truth in that. And even if it were just a kernel, and you said to yourself, [Aleya Harris]: if you are a person with this cough situation, every single morning, or you said it before [Aleya Harris]: every meeting to yourself, I am noticed and appreciated in the most positive ways I am loved. [Aleya Harris]: Do you think there's a chance that you might show up with that story a little bit differently [Aleya Harris]: in the room that you enter? Is there just a little chance? There's a little chance, [Aleya Harris]: isn't it worth taking, to understand how your body could stop telling on you, [Aleya Harris]: so that you really could own the power that your intelligence provides you with.

59:19[Aleya Harris]: So that's what I have for you. It's a very little book, very cheap on Amazon. Louise, [Aleya Harris]: hey, heal your body. That sounds way more productive than having like a little cartoon [Tim Wilson]: flippy chart, you know, like the, you know, Dilbert comics, like this is like a, like, wow, [Tim Wilson]: you're actually going to make- However, don't hit on Dilbert. This Dilbert is funny. [Moe Kiss]: I'm not a wah-wah person, but there's something about that hit, which is not the, [Moe Kiss]: do I believe this or do I not believe this? It's like, how do I take a kernel of this thing [Moe Kiss]: that might help give me, you know, a different mindset for the day? And that was, yeah, [Tim Wilson]: I really appreciate that. I'm so glad. And Moe, what is your last call? And by the way, [Aleya Harris]: I'm sorry. Before Moe, before you go, I think that it's hilarious that in the U.S., it's woo-woo, [Aleya Harris]: but in Australia, it's wah-wah. So now I kind of want to know what other countries call it.

1:00:12[Moe Kiss]: I probably, I probably just fucked it up. Like, let's be real. Like, that's the most likely outcome. [Tim Wilson]: That's how you're going. It's, how do you know if somehow it has like four, four syllables in it? [Tim Wilson]: No. Yeah. No, no. Yeah. Okay. I have a weird one. [Moe Kiss]: I was walking to school with my son yesterday, holding hands. It's just really cute. We're [Moe Kiss]: still at that age. He likes to do that. And I was telling him all about his Nana. Well, [Moe Kiss]: my Nana, sorry. And who she was as a person. And I was like, oh, Nana was a matriarch. And I was [Moe Kiss]: like, do you know what that means? And he goes, yes, a matriarch is when there's a leader of the [Moe Kiss]: group and the leader is a woman. And I like nearly fell over myself. And I was like, you were [Moe Kiss]: raising him right, Moe. I was like, wow, where did you learn that? And he's like, well, elephants [Moe Kiss]: and lemur families are both matriarchal families. And I'm like, shut the front door, kid. Like, [Moe Kiss]: this is the best thing you've ever said. And it was like a zoo show on ABC IV, which is our

1:01:15[Moe Kiss]: like national broadcaster, where he had learned all of this. And it just, yeah, the reason I [Moe Kiss]: share this like little story is because I don't know, like there's little, there's little moments [Moe Kiss]: with kids where you can like, have a really amazing positive influence, or maybe you just [Moe Kiss]: underestimate the like, the way they're learning. I don't know, it's just, it's really been the [Moe Kiss]: highlight of my week. And I often talk about academic stuff. And I wanted to share that. However, [Moe Kiss]: however, I do have a two for because during the course of this show, I did kept thinking, [Moe Kiss]: I kept thinking about a Ted talk, which is Vanessa van Edwards, you're contagious. And she [Moe Kiss]: talks about when you're presenting and like, you put your arms behind your back and like, [Moe Kiss]: what that does to like, how people receive you. So if you were really interested in what a layer [Moe Kiss]: had to say, that would be a really good Ted talk to go check out. Anyway, sorry to talk to him.

1:02:08[Aleya Harris]: That was so nice. In addition to my Ted talk, feel free to look up mine as well. Thanks so much. [Aleya Harris]: Absolutely. I gotta get a shameless plug in there, Moe. Come on. [Tim Wilson]: Totally, totally. And Moe, like it sounds like it was, you know, somewhere down under there was [Tim Wilson]: a nice kind of a, there's some good TV programming, we're shutting down any sort of that kind of [Tim Wilson]: messaging and educationing, like education over here in North America. So that's just rub it in, [Tim Wilson]: rub it in our face that you're, you still have that sort of thing. Yeah. I'm a real human. I [Moe Kiss]: didn't shut out a layer. I'm like, you know, talking about how great on TV is. I'm really in [Aleya Harris]: a role today. It's, it's all right. There is, there is not much more you could do for an American [Aleya Harris]: to make us feel worse than we already do. Sorry. Over to you, Tim. So Tim, what's yours? Yeah, [Tim Wilson]: I was going to say that, Moe, you're going to ask me what my last call is. Yeah, what's your last call?

1:03:11[Tim Wilson]: Jeez. That's what I was counting on Val to be here for. So I've dipped into this well a few [Tim Wilson]: times over the years, because it is still always just a fun site. But the pudding had a, [Tim Wilson]: pudding.cool had a whole deep dive analysis on similes. It's called comparisons as predictable [Tim Wilson]: as the sunrise, an analysis of 200,000 similes from popular fiction. And it kind of struck me [Tim Wilson]: because as we're talking about LLMs and AI and all this stuff and all it can do with unstructured [Tim Wilson]: data, which is often text data. And this was actually literally going in to a bunch of text [Tim Wilson]: and pulling out the similes. And it makes the point that a simile is kind of an identifiable [Tim Wilson]: form because it's, you know, something as blank as whatever. And as the pudding does, it's got [Tim Wilson]: visualizations. It's got hilarious anecdotes at the very end. It's got like just a random, [Tim Wilson]: this will be like a layer flipping open the book and reading a random thing. It's got a whole [Tim Wilson]: bunch of like random similes, like a, a, as welcome as hemorrhoids at a rodeo or

1:04:20[Tim Wilson]: as clear as the novel by Virginia Wolf. As funny as a guided tour through Dachau. So [Aleya Harris]: it's kind of like, and those are real things from literature. [Aleya Harris]: I had to get as comfortable as a trout on a marble slab as graceful as a lobster playing [Aleya Harris]: soccer. This is awesome. We know what I'm doing. Instead of watching anime until my kid comes home, [Aleya Harris]: this is what I will be doing. Thank you so much.

1:04:48[Tim Wilson]: Yeah, you're welcome. It made me feel good that it was like welcome as a pork chop in a synagogue. [Moe Kiss]: Oh, could I, sorry, her tone as friendly as a bucket full of shit. I'm like, how did I land on [Tim Wilson]: that one? That's good. I brought joy and those were humans. I'm sure, I'm sure AI could be asked [Tim Wilson]: to come up with these like wacky things, but those were from real human written stuff. And it, yeah, [Tim Wilson]: I got to the end. I was like, now what's at the end? And I'm like, well, now I can't stop reading [Aleya Harris]: these. So, oh my God, I'm sending this to 50 people right now. I cannot help it.

1:05:27[Tim Wilson]: All right. So, that was a lot of fun. So, Aleya, thank you again for coming on the show. This has [Aleya Harris]: been a wonderful discussion. I've loved, I've loved being here. Sorry, I had a blip because I was [Aleya Harris]: still reading the article that you just talked about. I'm sorry. I'm back now. I'm back and I'm [Aleya Harris]: focused. I'm as focused as a dog chasing a bottle like I'm focused. [Tim Wilson]: All right. If you, I've, at this point, I think all our listeners have dropped off to go track down [Tim Wilson]: that putting article. So, they're not listening anymore. But if you are still listening, we would [Tim Wilson]: love to get a review or rating on whatever platform you listen on. If you would like to get a [Tim Wilson]: sticker to slap on your laptop or a mug or a water bottle, you can go to analyticshour.io [Tim Wilson]: and we'll send you a sticker. We'd love to hear from you. Reach out to us on LinkedIn, [Tim Wilson]: on the Measure Slack. Reach out to Aleya on LinkedIn as well. If you want to learn more, [Tim Wilson]: you can always email us at contact.analyticshour.io. And for whether you are realizing right now that

1:06:46[Tim Wilson]: you have a presentation next week and there is no story, or whether you're like, no, I know what [Tim Wilson]: the story is and it came to me while I was listening to this episode. No matter what you're doing, [Aleya Harris]: for myself, for Moe, keep analyzing. Thanks for listening. Let's keep the conversation going [Announcer]: with your comments, suggestions and questions on Twitter at, at analyticshour, on the web at [Announcer]: analyticshour.io, our LinkedIn group and the Measure Chat Slack group. Music for the podcast [Announcer]: by Josh Crowhurst. Those smart guys wanted to fit in so they made up a term called analytics.

1:07:25[Charles Barkley]: Analytics don't work. Do the analytics say go for it no matter who's going for it? So if you [Charles Barkley]: and I were on the field, the analytics say go for it. It's the stupidest, laziest, lamest thing [Charles Barkley]: I've ever heard for reasoning in competition. [Tim Wilson]: Rock flag and we don't sell fruit.