The Lindsay Clancy Mini Series: A World Obsessed

0:00Speaker 1:Hi, I'm Gemma Bath, host of True Crime Conversations, and welcome to our mini-series unpacking the trial of Lindsay Clancy in Massachusetts, the case the entire world can't take their eyes off. We're going to be updating you multiple times a week in this feed as the court proceedings continue to unfold. Just a warning, this episode contains descriptions of violence against children and suicide. In our last episode, we took you through the prosecution's case. Today... We're going to unpack why the world is so obsessed with this trial.

0:35Speaker 1:The Lindsay Clancy murder trial has captured global attention in a way that's hard to comprehend. This is a woman who has admitted to killing her three children in an unimaginable way, but has pled not guilty to three counts of first-degree murder, with her defence arguing she is not criminally responsible because she was suffering from severe postpartum psychosis. The reality is this mother is not being vilified in the same way other mums who kill their kids are.

1:04Speaker 1:In fact, there's sympathy for her. Not because of what she did, let that be clear. Because of what she experienced in the lead-up. Because of what her defence claims were the systemic failures of her medical providers. But it gets even more nuanced than that. Because for many of us, it also feels like we're watching motherhood being put on trial. Firstly, it's important to acknowledge that we have unfettered access to this trial. Every second of it is being live streamed on the internet, allowing people to consume it like it's a TV show. And they're treating it like a TV show.

1:42Speaker 2:Lindsay Clancy.

1:43Speaker 3:Lindsay Clancy's murder trial.

1:44Speaker 2:The Lindsay Clancy trial. Who's Lindsay Clancy? So who's Lindsay Clancy?

1:48Speaker 3:Lindsay Clancy.

1:51Speaker 2:What the F?

1:52Speaker 1:Lindsay's trial has become fodder for amateur sleuths and armchair detectives pushing viral conspiracy theories. But the motherhood element, the postpartum element, this is the side of the trial that's really hitting a nerve. Because when you strip away the horrific crime at the centre of this story, we're watching a postpartum experience, a mother's internal thoughts, the mental load. and the unique experience of being the primary parent, being torn apart by a prosecution on a global stage. The prosecution has shown the jury videos of Lindsay going to water parks and museums with her children while in the depths of postpartum depression. Look, she's functioning, she's parenting, she's coherent, says the prosecution.

2:39Speaker 4:The Museum of Science in Boston can be crowded and overwhelming on a good day, and she's there with three kids under five with her husband, You see her monitoring them, caring for them, doing the exhibits, showing them what to do with the exhibits. If you watched that video and you didn't know who the Clancy family was, and we asked you, pick out the woman who is depressed. Pick out the woman who wants to kill herself. Pick out the woman who's about to kill her kids. You couldn't pick her out. She's completely calm. All her behaviors are typical and normal because she's able to control her behavior.

3:23Speaker 1:But for those of us, myself included, who have experienced postpartum depression, we can see ourselves in that footage. We go about our days, we parent, we work, we run a home, and sometimes we do it all while suffering from ailments that cannot be seen by the naked eye. We also can't help but notice how much Lindsay is doing while having a severe mental health crisis, how much of the household's mental load and the children's care appears to be on her shoulders. There was this testimony from her colleague, Andrea Hannigan.

3:57Speaker 5:When she was working, would you guys be working on the night shift or would you work in the afternoon?

4:02Speaker 3:The night shift.

4:03Speaker 5:Night shift. So did you ever see her go on her phone and access... cameras to see what was going on at home with the babies or anything like that? Yes. Is that something that she would do on a regular basis, staying in touch with the family and looking at the cameras?

4:20Speaker 6:Yes.

4:22Speaker 5:Did she ever tell you why she was doing that?

4:25Speaker 3:Not specifically.

4:26Speaker 5:Okay. She, to your appearance or to your observation, appeared to be very concerned about her kids, right?

4:33Speaker 6:Yes.

4:33Speaker 5:Did you ever hear her complain that she wanted to leave behind the life that she had and basically move on, something better?

4:43Speaker 7:Oh, no. Lindsay, from the time I met her as a young woman, very much desired to be a mother and have a family.

4:52Speaker 1:And this from Cora's preschool teacher, Susan Batolo, who raised a health issue with Lindsay on pick-up.

4:57Speaker 7:At pick-up time, did you have the occasion to see Lindsay Clancy?

5:01Speaker 3:Yes, I did.

5:02Speaker 7:And did you have an opportunity to speak with her?

5:05Speaker 2:Yes, we spoke quickly.

5:06Speaker 6:And I just was letting her know. And she did already know, but we just spoke quickly that she had gone a few times.

5:13Speaker 2:So you were letting her know about Cora going to the bathroom? Correct. And how did she respond when you told her that?

5:21Speaker 6:She said, I don't remember exactly the words, but basically that she wasn't glad that she wasn't feeling well, but she already had a doctor's appointment the next day so that she would let them know.

5:30Speaker 1:We're quite literally watching the mental load, which up until recently was an invisible thing mainly mothers carried, being stripped bare for all to see. It's important to remember that we are not saying that what Lindsay did is not abhorrent, but so many mothers are struggling to look away from this trial, perhaps because we keep seeing ourselves in Lindsay. Like when a detective read out the diary-style notes Lindsay has been writing on her phone, like this one.

5:58Speaker 8:As for the sleep training, I needed a baby that slept through the night because I simply do not have the opportunity in my life to catch up on sleep.

6:04Speaker 3:I just don't.

6:06Speaker 8:If there was a time for me to nap every day, then that may not have been the case, but there really isn't. When Cal naps, I have to take care of Cora and Dawson. That's just how it is. It feels cruel to me that we did not do that to Cal, but the reality is we did what we had to do.

6:22Speaker 1:Or this from the family's former nanny, showing the level of detail many of us have running continuously in our heads.

6:28Speaker 7:Is this the notebook that you would kind of communicate with her back and forth about Callan and his schedule?

6:33Speaker 6:It is.

6:34Speaker 7:And fair to say she left you pretty detailed instructions on his care. Yes, she did. And you were aware that she was very particular about sleep and food.

6:43Speaker 2:And keeping on a schedule, right?

6:45Speaker 7:Yes.

6:45Speaker 2:And so that's the purpose of this notebook.

6:47Speaker 7:Yes.

6:48Speaker 9:Or this.

6:49Speaker 1:When we watched Lindsay grapple with the idea of sleep training her baby, how she felt like a bad mum but was desperate for sleep, how she worried about what it was doing to her child.

6:59Speaker 7:It says, obsessed with his sleep and nap schedule like to the minute. It says, hearing him cry for one plus hours and not intervening just about killed me. I even said the words I want to die to Pat while he was crying. After that, I became obsessed with his sleep and nap schedule like to the minute.

7:21Speaker 2:That's one of the entries you reviewed and noted. Yes.

7:25Speaker 7:Page two says, I also feel like I did it wrong because I did it when he was overtired, so it made it harder. Now I have horrible insomnia and anxiety. You recall reviewing that in the journal?

7:37Speaker 5:Correct, yes.

7:39Speaker 7:Page four of the journal says, why else I feel guilty? He's not really hitting his milestones. Again, that's a page that's not dated in this.

7:47Speaker 2:Journal, correct?

7:49Speaker 7:Page eight says, I'm completely overwhelmed trying to take care of the three kids. I feel like I'm drowning every day. Again, another page that's not dated.

8:07Speaker 1:And then we're watching what for many women is our worst nightmare. A prosecutor seemingly tear those choices and inner thoughts apart, labelling them as controlling and manipulative.

8:19Speaker 7:She was someone who liked to control every little detail of her life, of her family's life. In contrast to pictures you'll see of the doting mother, the dedicated nurse, you'll also see a side of Lindsay Clancy that's different. Somebody extremely controlling, meticulous, and manipulative. The days were laid out with specificity. Strict schedules were expected to be maintained. Food was planned carefully. Sleep was scheduled to the minute.

8:58Speaker 1:We can't look away because there are many women who have fallen into the depths of postpartum depression and some that have experienced psychosis. But as the defence pointed out while questioning psychiatrist Dr Alia Goodhart, the diagnostic tool used by medical professionals barely mentions the former and doesn't mention the latter.

9:18Speaker 5:Rely on or do you use in your evaluation of patients the Diagnostic Statistical Manual?

9:25Speaker 1:We refer.

9:26Speaker 9:the diagnoses are based on the criteria that are stated in there.

9:32Speaker 7:Okay.

9:32Speaker 5:So you do use, for diagnosis purposes, what is stated in the DSM, correct? Yes. And it's kind of like a cookbook. I mean, it basically tells you what the ingredients of a particular mental disease or defect would be, right?

9:50Speaker 7:Yes.

9:51Speaker 5:And you know that it's basically a group of people that get together and They discuss what should or should not be included in the manual that psychiatrists and psychologists use to diagnose patients, right?

10:06Speaker 9:Yes.

10:08Speaker 5:And they try to keep up to date and stay on top of any recent developments, right?

10:17Speaker 9:I don't know.

10:18Speaker 5:Okay.

10:19Speaker 3:I can't speak to it.

10:20Speaker 5:That's all right. So here we are in 2026, not 1928. Is postpartum depression in the DSM?

10:34Speaker 9:I think it's a subcategory.

10:36Speaker 5:You think it's a subcategory of what? Depression. Depression. How about psychosis? Postpartum psychosis in 2026. Is that in this manual?

10:52Speaker 9:I don't exactly know where it is.

10:54Speaker 1:This was a woman who, as the defence argued in court, was trying to get the help she desperately needed, who the defence claims was getting fragmented care from providers who the defence say missed major signs.

11:06Speaker 5:And she went to Women's and Infants Hospital on December 20th, right?

11:12Speaker 3:She did.

11:14Speaker 5:And was she treated at Women and Infants?

11:18Speaker 3:I don't believe so.

11:20Speaker 5:Why not?

11:24Speaker 3:I wouldn't want to speculate or assume, but it seemed to be her intake appointment.

11:30Speaker 5:Her what?

11:31Speaker 3:Her intake appointment.

11:32Speaker 5:Okay. So without assuming or speculating, you referred her to this provider, right?

11:39Speaker 7:Yes.

11:40Speaker 5:So you have this woman who you know has been seeing Dr. Tufts, a psychiatrist, right?

11:46Speaker 3:Right.

11:48Speaker 5:You knew that. You didn't get access to Tufts records. You didn't know what Tufts was doing, but you knew that for a period of time before she saw you, she was dealing with a psychiatrist, right?

11:59Speaker 9:Yes.

11:59Speaker 5:You knew that she was a woman who had just given birth like five months ago, right?

12:04Speaker 6:Yes.

12:05Speaker 5:You knew that she was obviously in trouble. She was sick, right?

12:08Speaker 7:Yes.

12:10Speaker 5:You told us that she was suffering from, and your words were, a mental health illness that was very real. And you told her that this will get better. And that was in December of 2022. Yes. So when you referred her needing help to this women's and infants program in Rhode Island, and she went because that's what she was told to do. What happened at Women and Infants Program?

12:40Speaker 3:I can't speak to what happened at Women and Infants.

12:42Speaker 5:Why not?

12:45Speaker 3:Because I was not a part of that assessment.

12:49Speaker 5:What does that mean?

12:51Speaker 3:I did not see the assessment, and I did not speak with Dr. Diaz.

12:57Speaker 5:Why?

13:00Speaker 3:Lindsay had informed me that she was going to be at the program for two weeks.

13:04Speaker 5:She was hoping to be at the program for two weeks, right?

13:08Speaker 3:She told me she was going to be at the program for two weeks.

13:10Speaker 5:But she was turned away after about eight hours of sitting there in an assessment and sitting in a group session, and she was turned away because of their concern that she was suffering from, well, let me ask you, what was their diagnosis?

13:30Speaker 3:I'm not sure.

13:31Speaker 5:Did you ever find out?

13:32Speaker 3:I have not.

13:34Speaker 5:Does it matter to you as a treating person that I think your words were is invested in Lindsay Clancy's care at that time? Did it matter to you why she didn't get accepted into the program? It did. Why was it?

13:49Speaker 3:I do not know their diagnosis.

13:52Speaker 5:How many women have you treated that were suffering from postpartum psychosis?

14:00Speaker 3:I don't recall.

14:02Speaker 9:I don't remember, but I think it would stick in my memory, so I don't think that I probably have.

14:10Speaker 5:You don't think you probably have?

14:12Speaker 9:I don't think I have. I haven't seen any.

14:17Speaker 1:Lindsay even reached out to her mum. desperate for intervention and help.

14:21Speaker 4:Now, you talked about a time when you went to her home and you actually ended up sleeping with her because she didn't want to be alone. Was that that October 20th visit?

14:32Speaker 5:No.

14:32Speaker 2:When was that?

14:34Speaker 10:That was, I can't exactly remember when. I'm going to say probably sometime in November, the latter part of November, maybe the early part of December.

14:43Speaker 2:Did she tell you why she was afraid to be alone?

14:46Speaker 10:She just said she was afraid to be alone. And one reason, I believe she said she didn't know if she was going to be able to sleep, but mainly she was afraid to be alone.

14:56Speaker 1:Then there's the fact that while Patrick Clancy told the court she was getting worse, that her health was deteriorating, court testimony shows Lindsay was left alone with the kids on multiple occasions. The family's nanny was also dismissed a month before the killings, putting the majority of caregiving and household duties back onto Lindsay once again. One of the hardest things for many mothers to let go of while watching this is they see a woman, a mother, carrying a load many of us are familiar with, a mother who asked for help. She wasn't suffering silently. It makes us think, if I tell someone I am not okay, what happens next? This trial is putting women's health care on notice. It's putting the mental load on notice. That's why women are so obsessed with this trial. And in our next episode, we're going to unpack the defense's case.

15:48Speaker 1:because the way Lindsay's lawyer, Kevin Reddington, has argued for her is also something many of us can't stop thinking about.

15:55Speaker 5:Just another woman, I guess that's just going to make an excuse. She's depressed. GAD, general anxiety. Give her a couple of pills, she'll be all right. You know from looking at the objective evidence in this case, this young lady, believe me, I don't have many clients like that. This young lady did nothing wrong in her life. You can see the Facebook postings. You can see what she indicates about, for example, I just randomly grabbed this one, a son, my prince, that they would have you think she killed him first, cruelly because she didn't like him. That is repulsive.

16:44Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to True Crime Conversations.

16:46Speaker 3:We'll be back soon.

16:51Speaker 7:Thank you.