Daniel Mancuso's Father Killed His Mother. The Grief Feels Different This Year.

0:02Speaker 1:It's a cold July night in Melbourne in twenty thirteen, and an elderly couple here a woman screaming. It's nearing ten pm and the sounds are coming from the home next door. An older woman lives there. Her daughter moved in three years ago after an ugly divorce to an abusive man. She has two grown up sons. Quickly, Nina raises the alarm and police are called. When officers arrive, they find Teresa Mancuso in her parents' garage. She's been murdered in a crime they'll later describe to the public as vicious, cold blooded. As her sons are alerted and quickly rushed to the scene, there's no doubt in their mind who did it, but it'll be two excruciatingly long years before they see their dad arrested. I'm Jemma buff and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them. A warning to listeners, what happened to Teresa is horrific listening, but it's important to describe so you can understand the depravity of this crime.

1:16Speaker 1:The violence, the rage. Theresa was stabbed at least sixteen times in the chest and abdomen, and suffered blunt force trauma to the head. She was fourty nine years old, her two boys were grown, and she'd been in the process of rebuilding her life after divorce. It was her chance to be happy after spending more than two decades in an abusive marriage, but her rex made that impossible. He openly threatened to kill her. He slut shamed her, he followed her and her boyfriend, abused her, frightened her, called her over and over again. Fernando Paulino made her life a living hell. When she died, the former couple were just weeks away from a court date to finalize the division of their assets, something he claimed he'd never let happen. While sentencing him to thirty years in prison, Justice Andrew Bell accused the fifty five year old of family violence of the most extreme kind. He described the murder he committed as a crime of jealousy, hatred, and rage by a man against a woman who just wanted to be equal, independent and free, or more simply just wanted to be It's a powerful sentencing document to read

2:33Speaker 1:all these years later. In the current climate we still live in of extreme violence against women at the hands of current or former partners. Justice Bell is damning and angry and unforgiving. In his condemnation, he talks about Paulino depriving his own sons of a mother. Of the impressive young men he witnessed in court who have undergone a rite of passage far more difficult than most. Daniel, aged twenty seven and Luke aged twenty five at the time of the court proceedings, both gave evidence in the trial in twenty twenty six. They are strong advocates against men's violence against women. They speak openly and passionately about family violence prevention, and it's all thanks to their neighbor, well, their mum's neighbor, the woman who first raised the alarm, a Greek grandmother who adopted Daniel and Luke as her own after they moved into the house their mum died in, who fed them and loved them and showed them a kindness that has seen the boys create a social media movement turned business called Yaya next Door. Daniel joins us now to talk family violence, grief, the power of kindness,

3:49Speaker 1:and his next venture, fatherhood. Daniel thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversation. I want to start with your mom. Can you tell us about her? Who was she and what was she passionate about in life?

4:06Speaker 2:Well, she was just, simply to put it as that's the right word here, heartless soul where she always did everything for her kids. So she would literally do everything and anything for us, for Luke and I and her family.

4:23Speaker 3:She would always, you know, if it was.

4:24Speaker 2:A cold winter morning, I remember going to school, she would have our socks in front of the heat are so they're nice and warm for when we were to put it on our shoes and socks and ready to go. You know, she'd just supposedly we bought Cortalezi's with just snitzles in Italian and she ripped them up just for an after school snack. She would you pick us up at any time of the day or night if we were going out, she'd always want us to be getting home safe. But yeah, she was just a really beautiful soul who would do everything and anything for her friends and family. And I'm just lucky enough that I obviously got to experience quite a significant time with her, because I know other people in that circumstances might not get to have had experienced that much time, But I try and look at the positives and try and just think, well, I'm just blessed that I was able to have that time with her. And it is hard, I'm not going to lie, but especially now more than ever, when like I'm about to be a dad and achieving these other big milestones in my life. So having that and obviously getting married last year were quite really powerful times where

5:35Speaker 2:I really wanted her to be there.

5:37Speaker 3:But I know this should be there in spirit.

5:40Speaker 1:I want listeners to understand a little bit about more behind the scenes, because from the outside, as a child, you had a nuclear looking family mum, dad, two kids, But what was happening behind the scenes that maybe the kids at school didn't know about.

5:54Speaker 2:I just wish I had a bit more confidence and being open and honest with my friends. Like, don't get me wrong, there were probably the times where my friends knew some things or whether they heard my parents fighting just by yelling and stuff.

6:10Speaker 3:But I just wish that.

6:11Speaker 2:I kind of was a bit more open and honest with them, because I feel like you're also given that age you're kind of ashamed in retrospective where you feel like you want to be pictured as this perfect, loving family. So I wish I could just, you know, go back to my younger self and just tell him, you know, it's okay to speak up to friends and family and have that support, because for us, having that support around us meant everything.

6:40Speaker 3:And I'd have my friends to today.

6:44Speaker 2:I treat them like my own family, like I see them as my family, and I'm just grateful that I have such a great support network around me who.

6:53Speaker 3:Have helped me through my hardest times.

6:55Speaker 2:And you know, even when Mum passed away, like one of them would always be at the house every night or sleeping over just to make us feel more comfortable or try and distract us from obviously the hard times.

7:09Speaker 3:At that point in time.

7:12Speaker 1:It sounds like that kind of yelling and violence was a bit of an undercurrent throughout your whole childhood. In hindsight, witnessing that kind of stuff as a kid, what are the lasting impacts it had on how you grew into a man, how you kind of formed relationships when that's the relationship that you were watching.

7:35Speaker 2:Yeah, look, it was quite hard for me at to start. I feel like to be in a relationship. I kind of was a bit scared because I wanted it to be a perfect relationship because I knew I'd seen my parents fighting. So for me growing up, I was always a bit scared in leading into a relationship or committing I should stay. But in saying that, I feel like I am again ending that negative into a positive where I've got the blueprint of a man that I don't want to be and what I want to be, especially being a father and having a family.

8:08Speaker 3:Now I feel like it's.

8:10Speaker 2:Again utilizing I guess what and what not to do is kind of what a how I'm approaching this now.

8:18Speaker 1:Your parents separated in twenty ten, so by then you and your brother were late teens, early twenties, you'd kind of you know you were men. Did you welcome that separation? Was that something that you'd been hoping would happen?

8:30Speaker 2:Well at the start, obviously being younger, we were obviously hoping that they didn't break up, But it wasn't into a bit more in our teenage years and where we accepted it and wanted it to happen because we were just sick and tired of them fighting, and at the end of the day, we actually just wanted them to both be happy, and we felt like, you know, they got to a point where they didn't seem that.

8:53Speaker 3:So it wasn't until.

8:54Speaker 2:Our later life where we wanted them to separate and we felt final relieved to some degree where they were broken up, but then obviously things continue to escalate behind the scenes, and yeah, it's just obviously sad that obviously it had to be the way it ended up. But yeah, it was one of those times where you you wanted it to happen because you just really got sick and tired of them arguing and living in a household where it.

9:23Speaker 3:Felt like that.

9:24Speaker 1:So you were hopeful that by leaving your mom would be able to move on and have a happy life. And that's just not what ended up happening.

9:33Speaker 3:No, that's right.

9:35Speaker 1:Your mom did everything right in terms of, you know, the protections offered to her by the police and everything she got an abo, she was telling the police what happened. When you look back, what else could she have done really to have helped herself. This feels like she did everything in the system that's there for her.

9:53Speaker 3:Correct.

9:53Speaker 2:She literally did everything that you kind of follow She was lodging when you know a certain stance would come, whether that's phone calls or confronting her face to face, going to the police station, filing reports and all that kind of stuff that goes with that. But obviously it wasn't It wasn't enough, and sadly obviously ended the way it did. So I just don't know how we as a society can change. I feel like, personally, there needs to be harsher penalties so people can really understand if they do these actions, this is the repercussions, because I feel like she did everything in her power to do the right thing, to move on with her life, to live a happier life and to start fresh with even like a new job and everything like that. But then obviously things obviously didn't turn that way.

10:48Speaker 1:Did you ever think though that your mum's life would be in danger, that it would go that far?

10:52Speaker 2:Look, to be honest, there were threats made during their relationship. I'm not going to lie about that, but I didn't think ever in my wildest dreams that this would result to the way it did, where she slowly passed away and now my father's in prison. So yeah, I never, in my wildest dreams figured that that would end up to be that way, but obviously, yeah, it's here we are today obviously talking about this matter.

11:19Speaker 1:Well, it was three years after their separation that your mum lost her life. How do you remember finding out about that news and where were you?

11:31Speaker 3:Yeah, I remember like it was yesterday.

11:34Speaker 2:We had a dinner at mynna's house where we obviously were living with the next doors story, but we had a dinner there or sorry, we had a dinner at my aunt's house had got moved there, and then we were there, and then we came back home, and I found it quite strange because I got harrim and all the lights were on in the house, the tea was on, lasting loud, and I just thought, this is really strange because my dad would normally have you know, the lights on, sorry off, and have maybe some lights on to make it feel like someone's home, never have the TV on, especially blasting that loud.

12:16Speaker 3:And then I just.

12:18Speaker 2:Clicked in my mind where we quickly were very fast on it, where we were contacting my brother. My brother went out after that, because I just got home and went to have a shower and get ready for bed. But then I made the calls and then was a domino effect of my brother, but then call my mom, and then I would try and call my dad. Then we'd try and call, you know, both our aunties on my mom's side on my dad's side, and then obviously nothing was heard from either, and it was really strange that either of our parents weren't answering the phone. Normally, my mom would answer straight away, especially seeing us call and say with my dad he had his phone and clipped to his belt, even he was a tradee So it was just really unusual that another man's it all within a specific time frame not calling us back. And then it wasn't until our beautiful Naven next door ye heard yelling, which then she raised the awareness and called my auntie because she had her number, so she called her and then my uncle went to the house and that's when obviously they found her, and then everything I followed after that, and then I remember driving to the

13:30Speaker 2:reservoir because I'm like, I'll just go and see if she's okay and see if she was there. And then as I was getting closer to the house, I got a phone call Saint Daniel, don't go to the house.

13:41Speaker 3:Don't go to the house.

13:42Speaker 2:Come to come to my aunties and then I just saw all these cop cars at the front, and then I thought the worst. And then it wasn't until we walked in there and we heard the news and I.

13:53Speaker 3:Just remember.

13:55Speaker 2:Obviously just breaking down and kind of everything else after that was a bit of a blur.

14:03Speaker 3:It didn't feel real. It was like a dream.

14:05Speaker 2:And then throughout that whole night, I think it were there at the cops station till six am that whole night, having obviously discussions on our movements and not say we'll getting lectured like we were the people that did it, but they were just trying to obviously put together a story. So I was very tiring and long process. And then they had to take our clothes and they were wearing too, and yeah, then we just went back to my aunties and then I remember we had family and friends visit and I was just so out of it.

14:39Speaker 3:I hadn't slept for.

14:39Speaker 2:Like nearly two days, and it was just just a very emotional and training experience.

14:45Speaker 1:Thank you for telling us that, Daniel. I know it's hard to relive that just logistics wise. You were living at your dad's house at the time, so did you And then you moved in into your mother living.

14:58Speaker 2:With our father, Luke and I. For me, it was just more for work purposes. And then Luik, obviously we were both live in here and he was doing schooling or finishing school or uni, I can't remember now. It was like a lifetime ago and we were molso living here, not because we wanted to, It was more also to keep an eye on our dad. We felt like it was a bit safer to have that extra eye on him, whereas in an idea.

15:29Speaker 3:Where we were moved in with our mom in a heartbeat.

15:32Speaker 2:But we just felt like it was probably the wisest thing to do to keep an eye on him. And also I felt like if we had moved in with our mom, he probably would have got more upset and angry, which is sad to say, but we just tried to make it with what the best possible outcome is for all parties at the end of the day. So yeah, that's obviously how our living arrangements were at the time. And then obviously once my mom passed away, we were living with my auntie and they just had bought a house.

15:59Speaker 2:That's so lucky the house was big enough to fit us in I mean, it wasn't ideal, like I had to share a room with my brother in our early twenties, which we'd never had shared a room in our life because we're lucky enough to have our own bedroom. By the Yeah, we're there for two years, and then we built the courage up to move back. Our mum sadly passed away, which was a really hard decision, but I'm kind of grateful we did because obviously then we wouldn't have this beautiful relationship with our neighbor, and obviously wouldn't be here today talking to you on this podcast.

16:36Speaker 3:So it was very hard.

16:38Speaker 2:But you know, we didn't move into the for a while, and we didn't even walk into the garage for six months when we were living there. At the time, it was just a band. We just left it there with all the boxes. But then again, lucky we had our friends that would come and constantly visit or stay over, and we had an annual tradition every Thursday we had friends coming over to play cards, to watch the footy, have some food or coffees, and playing table tennis and other games and basketball. So we kind of felt a bit safer because again it was hard for us to move in because our father wasn't arrested for quite a few years prior to that, so we're kind of living in constant fear if you come, come back. And then we had at times telling him to telling us to come and visit him, to come back to live with him, which was really hard because straight away when mum passed away, we knew who done it, but we had to respect what the police did and just say, look, keep an open mind. We know.

17:47Speaker 3:What you think the.

17:48Speaker 2:Case may be, but you kind of just got to to be like that way given that they've experienced this before. So we were just quite blunt with our responses and it was very he That was probably one of the hardest times too, during that time, where he was arrested and not knowing if we were next door, he would come to try and confront us. So yeah, it was really hard, but again we were just lucky that we had a beautiful neighbor next door and obviously our amazing friends.

18:17Speaker 1:Around up next. Daniel shares how he and his brother endured the court case that followed their mum's murder and what it was like confronting their dad. It was an excruciating wait for you two years from until he was arrested. I'm assuming the police were just trying to gather evidence, but that doesn't make it any easier for you. And then you go through the court process and there isn't a sentencing until twenty seventeen, so that's another few years.

18:44Speaker 1:How did you find that whole process of court and sentencing and you gave evidence once that was all finally over.

18:53Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it was definitely one of the hardest priets. Obviously here in the news about my mom passing away. It was probably the hardest thing I'm about to do in my life. I don't wish it upon anybody having to experience being in a court with your dad kind of confronting and being open and eyes in front of strangers and reporters, hearing our story and our family upbringing, and then obviously having him shouting out like his innocent and the stuff like that. So it was really really hard and challenging, and it just felt like it was a lifetime because it did go on for a very long time.

19:31Speaker 3:It was one of the longer.

19:33Speaker 2:Processes of being in that court with that court case, so it did go on for a very long time, and it just sucks because it had to again enough evidence to kind of build up this case and obviously make it a strong case.

19:50Speaker 3:So then hopefully he doesn't, you know, have a shorter sentence.

19:54Speaker 2:Everyone knew it was him, but.

19:57Speaker 3:Yeah, it was. It's a very hard process.

19:59Speaker 2:And I still remember to this day, I'm speaking to Tony Harwood, who was the detective with our case, and I needed to I needed a break and I needed to get away. So I went away in twenty fifteen to Europe with my friends, and I said at the time, I'm like, are you sure this is okay for me to go? Like, I know, I really need to go just for my mental clarity and health, but I'm more so mindful that could he be arrested or do I need to be here for all this kind of extra stuff that could arise.

20:33Speaker 3:And he said, no, no, that's fine.

20:35Speaker 2:You go, You'll be all fine, nothing, nothing should kind of happen while you're away. And then I still remember we were on their midst or end of our Kentigui trip in Greece and I get flooded with messages on my phone saying are you okay? And had all these calls and messages and digging, like shit, what's what's happened? Like as my lord the past away, I just thought of something completely off, off topic or off off the whole perspective.

21:05Speaker 3:Of what was going on.

21:06Speaker 2:And then it wasn't until I spoke to some family and then saw all the news articles and stuff where it to my dad had been arrested. So it was crazy. And then I'm like, well, would you like me to fly back home? And given everything that happened and I'm not really familiar with this whole process, and then they said, no, finish your trip off, enjoy your time off, and when you get back, will will work it all out.

21:31Speaker 1:So could you enjoy the rest of your trip? After hearing something like that, knowing your brother was back home as well, it.

21:36Speaker 2:Was very hard, but as bad as it sounds, it was a relief because I knew he was arrested, so like it was in some perspective at least a lead in the right direction, a step in the right direction, I should say.

21:52Speaker 3:So it was hard, but I feel like too, it.

21:57Speaker 2:Was amazing to hear because it was just like, Okay, we've finally gotten somewhere with everything, and now like he's arrested. I can come back comfortable knowing that he's not at home, come and see try and see me or speak to me. So it was hard, but also it was kind of like a bit of it. As bad as it sounds, we've kind of celebrated. I remember the night you heard, the boys bought a shot and just had a toast to my mom and to celebrate obviously what had happened.

22:29Speaker 2:And then they're just again lucky I had them around to make it all worth my while and felt safe and better.

22:36Speaker 1:It's so interesting hearing you say that story, because you know, your early twenties, you are on kntique doing shots. That's what you're supposed to be doing, and yet you're also dealing with something so incredibly heavy that no one should have to deal with. It's like that, how do you keep living your life? But then you know you're still having to go to court and give evidence and do all of this really really heavy stuff. Were you given any support during that process? Did the courts give you support, the police anything like that?

23:06Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I don't know the exact term now, but we did get some government funding for like counseling, for other mental health things.

23:14Speaker 3:I think for like you know, a gym membership or.

23:17Speaker 2:Other stuff that we could do that would help kind of alleviate that, which was great, Like it did help, but then nothing lasts forever. It did have a cutoff with with those like you had. I think it was I can't remember the tom iha, but like maybe I think from memory ten or twenty counseling things that you were allocated individually obviously, so there was obviously that, but I just feel like it's all good at the start, but you kind of now more than ever, this is when the time you really need it most personally, especially like said, getting married and having a family, like this is the time where you feel like.

24:03Speaker 3:You're it doesn't hit you until now when you're really grieving.

24:06Speaker 2:You're like, for me, like I wish my mum would be here to like, you know, even lend a hand.

24:12Speaker 3:We're not.

24:12Speaker 2:I'm going to need it now more than ever, or being able to see the birth of my child or seeing me getting married, because I know that should be so proud and be one of those annoying moms with their phone out showing baby photos or marriage photos on the wedding day.

24:28Speaker 3:So just knowing that she's not physically here.

24:31Speaker 2:It's really hard, and so I wish like this is where I feel like, now more than ever, this is where the funding should be allocate, or at least a creative process where we think maybe we allocate stuff at the start, middle, and end, or not the same end, but towards later in life, because I feel like this is more more needed now more than ever.

24:53Speaker 1:Well, that makes sense because you're kind of entering that stage of life that your mum was more in where she was having kids and that became her kind of her focus in life. It makes sense that your grief would kind of come back up at this point. I want to bring Yaya in here because, as you mentioned, she was the neighbor of your mom where your mom was living. Can you tell us a bit about that, because she'd been the neighbor for years, she knew your mom, she knew you from when you were kids. She's kind of been a constant.

25:20Speaker 2:So she's been a part of our well, I feel like people do know this if they really have paid attention, But she's been a part of our life the whole time. She's seen me and my brother grow up, my family grow up, because she lived next door to mine, Noma, who where they had all the kids, and their kids went to the same school, so they would walk together to school and they had a relationship with them. So throughout her whole life, she's always been a prisons in our life. And it wasn't until obviously, which is sad to say, but wasn't until obviously when Mom passed aways, when our friendship or I guess.

25:55Speaker 3:Love grew for each other even more.

25:58Speaker 2:And you know who constantly always you know, touching base with her, seeing how she's doing, or visiting her or even you know, doing the chores with whether that's cutting grass or picking them up from the pokes, or dropping them off, or getting some groceries shops delivered, or some freebies that we might get that I know that they would love. I always look out for them, and I always will because there have been a big presence in my life ever since that day. And she always wants us to be known as her ear. She even calls my wife cookler, which is beautiful in Greek, and she treats her like her own daughter. And she's very proud that she's now a great year and she's so excited to see the baby So I'm just so happy that she's a part of my life, because sadly I've lost now both my grandparents just due to old age and whether that's health effects. But I'm just grateful that I still have Paple in my life and treat them like my own and be able to hopefully still have a long term with them or at least seeing my kids grow up with them in the picture.

27:04Speaker 1:For those that haven't seen your Instagram and don't know what we're talking about, tell me how it started, How did how did she help you in the biggest grief moment of your life?

27:16Speaker 3:Yeah, I still remember to this day.

27:18Speaker 2:Actually it was I was just playing basketball in the backyard, so she would have heard me making some noise, and I just hear this little old lady's voice, Daniel, I've got something for you, and saccumb to the fence, which is the iconic passover that you see for most of our videos. And she just handed a big tim which her mum sorry gifted her when she traveled here overseas, and she cooked about I think it was nine drumsticks chicken jumpsticks, and under that was rice and the steam was still coming off on the top of it, and she just gifted and said this is for you and Luke, so you enjoy.

28:00Speaker 3:And it wasn't.

28:01Speaker 2:I was just filming these acts of a kindness on my personal Instagram account and then I got so many comments from just family and friends where they're like, oh my god, this is so.

28:12Speaker 3:So cute, You're so lucky.

28:15Speaker 2:And then I don't know, I just had the thought of creating my own account, just given again I'm been in the creative space, I'm like, it won't take me long to do that. So I just created an account, which is at the time titled the Girl next Door. Then I created the page and then I had it up for a little while and we only had a few hundred followers, and then it wasn't until Martha from Maths from the Age of Maths who at the time, which is about to say, but I didn't know of her because.

28:43Speaker 3:I hadn't watched the show.

28:45Speaker 2:But it wasn't until she reshared a story or really went about posts on her story, and then it just blew up overnight, and from a couple of hundred followers, we blew up to I think it was six thousand, and then over that time it just built more more traction where we had the Age article from Tom Cowe, which again was another big I guess milestone in our journey where that was one of the most read articles of the year from the Age, and also Tom won a Quill Award which was recognized as one of the best stories from that year. And then also our photo got recognized as one of the top fifty photos of the year. So and then from there it was then printed, then went into media where we had the project with Tommy Little and then it just blew up again. And then after that it just was a domino effect of other amazing collaborations or partnerships with media or having our Glove cookbook out.

29:42Speaker 1:That's insane, Daniel, how that grew and blew up. I can definitely see like it kind of goes to that instinctual Australian quality of like the neighbor and the kindness, and I do think over recent years we've kind of lost that neighborly kindness value is do you think that's why it resonated so much as people.

30:02Speaker 2:I just feel like everyone resonates, especially back when I was a little kid, that people would live in the street growing.

30:12Speaker 3:Up, and I feel like it's a lost art.

30:13Speaker 2:Now everyone's glued to technology, and I feel like people don't go outdoors anymore or outside. Maybe they do just for sporting clubs and functions, but you know, you don't really see kids playing in the court anymore or playing random games that they make up. They just see the playing on technology like PlayStation or on their iPads, watching movies or YouTube. So I feel like it's just a lost form and I feel like we've lost that sense of community around us, which is sad because I feel like now more than their bar as a society, we need it. And you know, I can almost guarantee you most of the people might not know one of their neighbors, either beside.

30:58Speaker 3:Them or across the road.

31:01Speaker 2:So I really want to try and challenge that and change that narrative where you know, you've got to get to know your neighbors, and as the slogan we use is love thy neighbor. So I really want people to try and bring that back because I feel like now more the neighbor. Like I said, it's it's really important that we need to know our neighbors because if anything were to go wrong, you know, they are the first people that could come to come to you in a time of crisis or neat like I know, for instance, when my mum or parents would fight, or even you know, she would flee to my neighbor's house across the street or the under road just to feel safe that for that brief moment until things hopefully calm down, or if we as kids growing up felt like uncomfortable, that we would go to our friend's house in the court and just get out of the house, or my mom would do the same and then we'd flee that. So for us growing up, our whole life, we always sense had that sense of community around us, which we're fortunate to have, and I hope to kind of bring that back with my with my family and kid growing up.

32:07Speaker 3:Just that's why we're trying to promote that.

32:09Speaker 2:And the beauty I guess with the extor in our story behind her is too.

32:16Speaker 3:I feel like.

32:18Speaker 2:The love of the fact that we don't show her identity so it can showcase that any anyone could be this beautiful lady. Whether it's young and old, male, female, Greek or Italian, doesn't really matter.

32:30Speaker 3:Anyone could be this selfless soul.

32:33Speaker 2:So it's kind of been a blessing that we've respected her wish is not to show her identity, to showcase that, you know, anyone could take.

32:40Speaker 1:That on story aside, when it comes back to just this gesture from your neighbor in a time of need, what did that mean for you and your brother? How did it how did it help you during that time?

32:53Speaker 3:For us, it just we just felt somewhat more safe and having like a mother figure or grandma the figure next though to us. So for us it was everything, I guess.

33:04Speaker 2:Because we just felt like we had someone eyes and ears next door looking after us. So if things were to go wrong, or if the time or crisis were to her eyes for good or bad, that we had her were knowing that we had her next door to help and vice versa with her, especially being in her older age, that if she needed us she could we could return the favor in our way.

33:30Speaker 1:You also hear time and time again when something tragic happens in someone's life, often they lose friends because people just don't know how to show up for them anymore. Whereas this is showing the polar opposite, where your neighbor really stepped up, she became everything. So it's kind of promoting that you know, Bae are not everyone else that kind of disappears. Did you find that in your world that some people kind of drifted apart and drifted away to some degree?

34:00Speaker 3:Yes, whether that is some people, I feel like some like I don't know.

34:05Speaker 2:As too you get older, you probably your network it's a lot smaller, not in a bad way, but you just you live in a constant, busy life and you know your network it's closer and smaller, and you kind of try and make more time for those that really mean a lot to you or that have been there through the highs and the lowers of your life.

34:25Speaker 3:So yeah, I feel like is always going to be a special part of my life, and my wife's life and my kid's life.

34:32Speaker 2:So I'm just blessed that I get to have an extra grandparent in my life because obviously we don't talk to our dad's side. We didn't really have a great relationship with our grandparents on his side, So in that retrospect, we kind of had that second grandparents that we never really.

34:51Speaker 3:Got to have properly.

34:53Speaker 1:More of my conversation with Daniel after the break you turned next Door into a cookbook. How did that come about. Was that just from people wanting recipes or how did it go from a social media page to a cookbook?

35:09Speaker 2:Yeah, so it was during the seawork, the COVID era, So it was kind of hard because we were promised this deal and then obviously things to the world turned crazy or pear shaped with everything going on with the unknowing, and then it wasn't. I feel like, in my perspective, it was faith that it wasn't meant to be. And then we're just lucky enough that the legends at Pam McMillan sent me around a message on Instagram wanting us, wanting to send us some stuff that was relatable to what we're doing. And then it wasn't until I just thought, you know stuff, and I'm just going to shoot for the stars here and see what could come about of this.

35:56Speaker 2:And we just thought, why not try and propose a Greek cookbook or cookbook at that time where we could hopefully bring these recipes to life so people can, you know, experience their family recipes or your yards recipes, because I feel like it's a lost art where your grandparents don't write them down, it's all backed up in the memory bank and then sadly enough it then it gets to a point where it's too late to get those ingredients or recipes down because sadly they'll forget or have dementia, and then you miss out on that opportunity and you're kind of just thinking, well, this is this might go with that.

36:37Speaker 3:So and I'm in the same boat.

36:38Speaker 2:I wish I obviously got some of mine on Theo's recipes and my mum's recipes.

36:42Speaker 3:But.

36:43Speaker 2:I just feel like it was a beautiful way to tribute to all amazing your yards out there to be able to have that recipe with their loved ones and bringing back that nostalgic feel. And we wanted to obviously give back to the community, so for us, we wanted to do a community call out where it wasn't just the yards recipes, it was actually every other recipe from there to put forward in the book so everyone felt a part of it across Australia. I just wanted to thank our community for their love and supporter over the journey, and also thank ya Ya and her family for allowing us to capture these beautiful moments and now they're so fortunate enough that they can have your yards recipes for life in their property.

37:29Speaker 1:Can you tell us about some of your favorite ar recipes that she put over the fence to you during that time.

37:35Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, as I was saying earlier, definitely one of the highlights, and it's just a very simple dish, but it just brings me back to our I guess journey.

37:44Speaker 3:So the chicken and rice was the one that will.

37:47Speaker 2:Always stay close to my heart, just purely for the fact that it was the first recipe she handed over to us. I also love you can't go past a good spanakoptas, so I love that. And then I'm going to be biased here and paytribute to one of my mum's recipes.

38:02Speaker 3:But it was a rack a land with jam.

38:04Speaker 2:So it was actually one of the last dishes that my mom unfortunately cooked for me before she passed away. So I was fortunate enough that I was able to remember and asking family friends who were really quite good in the kitchen to kind of try and think of the ingredients that were use in her dish. So they're just some that I really loved and for me, like I'm the master chef, I'm very basic in the kitchen. I'm quite quick and easy and healthy. So to think that I have my own cookbook that blows my mind still.

38:38Speaker 2:It just goes to show how much the power of community has supported us. And we're here today obviously sharing these beautiful meals with everybody now. And I'm just fortunate that I was able to have that opportunity because it could have gone either way, especially during that COVID era.

38:54Speaker 1:It's so powerful hearing stories like yours and having this beautiful kind of cookbook to talk about, and all the good you and your brother have done. Obviously, there's the horrible story at the center of it. Has that taken a toll on you? Having to retell this story and live in this space for the past eight years while building you next door.

39:14Speaker 2:Yeah, look, I've been a life I said, it wasn't. I mean, it does take toll a ptolemy, it takes a totle of me. You have your waves and moments when that is the case, But in a positive way. I just try and see it as like it's my way of having a therapeutic session with a counsel without having to pay I guess, but I just wanted to raise awareness and support women who have sadly lost their life or going through domestic violence and families too. Most importantly, to try and hopefully be a voice, especially as a young man, which is not common, especially in this space.

39:53Speaker 2:And I just want hopefully whether the younger generation are looking back and seeing me speak up hopefully helps them to do the same if they're in that same situation.

40:04Speaker 3:So I see it in a good and bad way.

40:07Speaker 2:But yeah, it does. I'd be lying if it didn't. I didn't say it didn't take a toll on me. But like I said, I have my good days and my bad days, just like anyone, whether that's with work or life in general.

40:18Speaker 1:So you and your brother are now advocates in the domestic violence prevention space. Can you tell us a bit about the organizations you've chosen to affiliate yourselves with.

40:29Speaker 3:Yes, So we've.

40:30Speaker 2:Tried to work with like minded organizations that we feel like, really that we really admire because they're doing amazing work. And we're no professionals in this space. We're just live, going through lived experiences and kind of learning on the fly, because like I said, I'm a graphic designer, not in you know, psychology or domestic violence and all that stuff.

40:53Speaker 3:But I just want to continue to work.

40:55Speaker 2:With like mind organizations like our Watch Safe Steps, and I'm probably forgetting so many more, but we've collaborated with all these amazing brands and organizations in order to try and continue to drive that message across and try and do it in a creative way, whether that's through food collaborations like Messina or our cookbook, where we've you know, pro precentive Jara proceeds are going to charities in that space. I just want to continue doing that and then just making an impact in any way I can.

41:28Speaker 1:What do you want kids that are living in situations like you were to know from hearing about your story? What do you wish you knew? What do you wish they know?

41:40Speaker 2:I just want them to know that you're not alone, like You've got support network around you all the time. You just need to be confident, open and honest with your emotions and how you're feeling. So I wish I could go back to my younger self and say, you know, speak up or speak up to your friends or your parents at the time, because I always questioned if I had maybe spoken earlier in their early years, that maybe we wouldn't be here today. So I just want the younger generation to know, like you know, no one's perfect, whether that's through you know, mental health or wellbeing, or parents fighting, through domestic violence, everyone's going through something, or even health problems in general. So I just want people to know that life is sadly not perfect, but it's how you persevere and continue to try and be the best person you can be and treat others how you like to be treated.

42:37Speaker 1:A lot of the stories that we hear about violent men is that they had violence in their childhoods or personally, a lot of the people I've interviewed have told me that that there was violence in their childhoods. You and your brother have broken that pattern. Are there any tangible things that you can advise to young boys to men to help break that cycle more often?

43:02Speaker 2:If you can just show up and be the best version of yourself, and like I'm just saying, just before, treating others how you want to be treated, I feel like the world would be a lot better place. And you know, if you if you see something like whether call it out or at least pull someone aside and just say, look, I don't think that's right, or speak up and help them. Because people are often scared to speak up or pull someone aside to tell them, hey, that's all right, and you know, pull your socks up and and do some do some good in the world, because unfortunately the world's a crazy place and it only seems to be getting more and more crazier. So for me personally, I just feel like they need to just realize simply just you want to live in a world where you want to treat others how you want to be treated, and and think about like roles were reversed, how would you feel. Or if you had a daughter or a son or that's your mum, how would that make you feel? So I feel like people just need to stop and think before they speak and before their actions.

44:04Speaker 1:You said yourself that there aren't a lot of male voices in this space. Have you felt the power of being a male role model in this area?

44:14Speaker 3:I do.

44:15Speaker 2:I do feel like there is, which is great to see. It's getting more and more better in this space. I'm wearing a Carlton Respects hat who I've worked with for a number of years now. We've just recently celebrated ten years of Carlton Respects. So knowing that as a football club, especially the AFL team, they've really taken it upon themselves to really I guess shine right in that space where they really wanted to turn into something very powerful. So they dedicate every year around to that game where they're really highlighting the importance and the work that they're doing, and also going to kids' schools and educating the younger gener to promote not what to do and to showcase you know.

45:05Speaker 3:How to live in a better society and culturally too.

45:07Speaker 2:So I just feel like it's great to see that there are more men out there like Hiventeranng, who I consider a brother from another mother, who sadly lost his sister Nikki to domestic violence. But I do feel like it's getting more and more common where men are speaking up. I just wish, obviously more men would take the courage to speak up and not feel like they're perceived as a specific persona of painting this picture on them. So I just want to continue to hopefully be I guess a voice in this space and trying to help others be inspired in that.

45:44Speaker 1:For me, it was even incredible to see you speaking about domestic violence prevention and awareness on a football podcast like that is incredible progress in my eyes, because I don't think we would have seen something like that ten years ago. A football podcast with a predominantly male audio talking about violence against women and children. Like that alone, I think should be celebrated.

46:07Speaker 3:Thank you.

46:07Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I mean by the power like people don't really I think people do realize. But sports are very powerful, powerful thing in life, so that trying to use it for good and I think it's a really smart way of educating people, especially given the larger audience. Are men well not in the sane now because I feel like there's a lot more women's sports, which is amazing to see, but you know, it was predominantly a men's sport.

46:33Speaker 3:So for speaking on that.

46:36Speaker 2:I think it's really important and it just goes to show how we've changed over the last ten years as a society and hopefully continue to grow that moving forward.

46:44Speaker 1:You mentioned a few times that you're about to become a father. That's definitely a new adventure, a new chapter you're about to step into. What kind of father are you hoping to be?

46:54Speaker 3:I know it sounds cliche.

46:56Speaker 2:I'm just trying to be the best best father I can be, as in the best humor in person too, So I just want I guess I'm emulating my mum in that by wanting my son and then hopefully with the second that whatever that may be, well, whenever that may be, I should say, just to treat them as a friend. I want them to feel comfortable to come to me through the good times and the bad, and not feel scared to come and talk to me in the time of need. So I just want to have that open, honest relationship with my son and kids, and I want them to feel safe and loved and know that we're always here for them no matter what.

47:40Speaker 1:Is Pregnancy and preparing to become a dad. Is it making you reflect on everything you've been through and your childhood and your mom in a different light.

47:51Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely.

47:52Speaker 2:I feel like it has shaped me, I guess to try and be the best person in show up.

48:00Speaker 3:Every day for my wife and my family.

48:03Speaker 2:But in saying that too, just give gives me the blueprint of how I want to, I guess, go with life with my family and to make them feel safe and comfortable. I'll be lying if I would say I'm not stressed and scared, because I am. But I feel like that's normal, but I'm really excited for the next chapter and excited to see what life will holds moving forward. I know it's going to be a bit of a rollercoaster and it's not going to be easy, but I'd like said life's not easy or perfect. But I'm just just going to write it and enjoy the enjoy the moment.

48:41Speaker 1:And what's next for your next door? Are you going to have a bit of paternity leave there or what's what's your plans for the movement.

48:50Speaker 3:I definitely need to take some time off.

48:52Speaker 2:I think I think i'd also get in trouble from the wife if I don't. Look, I do want to take some time off because I do want to be present, especially during that early stage. I think it's going to probably be the most important time of needs, especially not just looking after my kid, but obviously helping my wife too, given that you know, she won't be able to probably move around as frequently after giving giving birth, So just trying to help her as much as I can and just enjoying the little moments I'm really looking forward to.

49:29Speaker 2:So I definitely, yeah, will be taking some time off. In saying that, I know I'm fortunately I needed to still pay the bills because she'll be taking off some time, and because I work for myself, Unfortunately, I don't get the leave, so if I don't work, i won't get paid, but i'll definitely yeah be taking a few weeks off to enjoy that moment with them.

49:48Speaker 1:Lastly, Daniel, what do you think your mum would think of everything you and your brother have built in her legacy.

49:55Speaker 3:I feel like she'd be very very proud, and I don't know.

50:00Speaker 2:I just feel like there are moments throughout specific occasions where I feel like her presence is right there, whether that's I even get some of the times away when we're taking photos at these occasions or events, I can see these lights that I shouldn't be there, and I feel like that's her being there, very happy and proud and showcasing to all her friends above, look at my son, look what he's doing, and kind of really being one of those mums that which you take for granted, where you're like, mums, stop stop embarrassing me. So I feel like she'd be very very proud, smiling from you to ear and obviously celebrating with.

50:42Speaker 3:All my other loved ones above through all the milestones that we've achieved thus far and continue to do so.

50:48Speaker 1:Thank you so much, Daniel for sharing your mum with us and sharing you with us. Thanks for joining.

50:54Speaker 3:Us, no worries, Thank you for having me.

50:57Speaker 1:Thank you to Daniel for joining us on this episode. You can find links to Yaya Nextdoor in our show notes. If you're experiencing family and domestic violence, Safe Steps provides immediate and confidential assistance. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week with another true crime conversation