The Woman Tasked With Fixing Australia's Most Controversial Police Force

0:05Speaker 1:He's an Australian born man, non Indigenous, he's aged between thirty and thirty four, and he's armed with a knife. What I've just described to you is your average type of domestic violence homicide offender in New South Wales. We know all of this because of a new interactive tool made by the state's Domestic Violence Death Review Team. It's based on three decades worth of data. I mean, the numbers are no surprise to most of us. We're losing a woman a week to a former or current partner in Australia. As New South Wales Police Minister Yasmin Cattley admits, it's depressing, but she's trying. For three years, she's been overseeing major changes to our laws and systems. In twenty twenty four, New South Wales criminalized coercive control. They made bail laws tougher and introduced stricter monitoring for those let out.

1:03Speaker 1:They introduced a new app called empower You so victims can discreetly document abuse and seek support. They've done blitz operations mass arresting offenders, but is it working. That's the big question. So for the women living this reality in fear with abuse, with violent men, what's next? What do we actually do next? I'm Jimmy Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them. We don't often have politicians on this podcast, but time and time again we hear about the barriers, trauma, backlogs and roadblocks that are getting in the way of victims and their families as they try and seek help, justice or support from our police services. Yasmin Catley is only in charge of Police Encounter Terrorism in New South Wales, but we were keen to hear from her, from someone in a position of power to understand more about how decisions are made, how change is enacted, and why progress in spaces that are crying out for reform is so damn slow. Catley comes from a working class family and

2:21Speaker 1:grew up in the Hunter and Central Coast regions of New South Wales. Her husband is also in politics and they have three daughters together. She has been a member of the Australian Labour Party since she was nineteen. She started off as an electric officer in the Federal Party and worked in several senior Minister's Officers for more than a decade. For entering State parliament, she was elected Member for Swansea in twenty fifteen, and from there she's worn a number of hats. Shadow Minister for Innovation and Better Regulation, Shadow Minister for Building Reform and Property and for Rural Regional Jobs, Deputy Leader of the Party and consequently Deputy Leader of the Op position, Shadow Minister for Customer Service, Shadow Minister for Digital both Shadow Minister and Minister for the Hunter and as of twenty twenty three, Minister for Police and counter Terrorism, which of course is why we've invited her on the podcast. Here's our conversation with Yasmin Cautley. Jasmin, thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations. Can you give us a bit of a background on your career because I'm fascinated how someone went from being a

3:31Speaker 1:librarian to New South Wales Minister for Police and counter Terrorism. I know there's a lot of gaps in there, but tell me how that trajectory has kind of happened for you.

3:42Speaker 2:Yet, while I still pinch myself to quite frankly, look, I did join the Labor Party when I was nineteen. I come from a working class family. My dad was a seafarer, so politics was something that was talked about a lot in our house and he was a member of the party, so I joined as well.

3:59Speaker 3:I remember I'm a member.

4:00Speaker 2:Of the party. I should tell you. I was a member of the Swansea branch. They were about seventy six men and me.

4:06Speaker 1:Really.

4:07Speaker 3:Yes, he had con imagined in nineteen year.

4:09Speaker 1:Old one nineteen year old woman.

4:11Speaker 2:And guess what. I became the secretary of the branch real quick. And that's because what do you do? You give the woman all the work? Typical right, make my blood boil? Oh well, you'd be boiling every day if I could tell you half my stories, Demma, you know, And then I did. I worked in public libraries for most of my career and then at the I did almost ten years at the Refugee Review Tribunal. So I moved into Commonwealth Public Service libraries and I loved it.

4:39Speaker 2:I really enjoyed my job. And it was after my third child. I was living in dullit Chill with my husband and the three girls, and Anthony Albanie was my local member and he said, do you want to come and work in my electorate office?

4:51Speaker 3:And I did. But then we moved.

4:53Speaker 2:Back home to Swansea and I worked for Greg Combay in two thousand and fourteen the he was looking for a candidate for the seat of Swansea and Greg said you should do that, and he encouraged me to do that. And can I say It's the greatest honor of my life representing my community, the people that I live, work and play with.

5:12Speaker 1:So it sounds like, you know, being the member for Swansea is something you're really passionate about. Oh yeah, what about the police and counter terrorism portfolios? What did you know about them prior to getting into that world and was that something that you were excited about when you got tap to do it?

5:29Speaker 2:Well, Jim, I'd spent most of my life trying to avoid police, like most people quite frankly, so as.

5:36Speaker 3:A consequence of that, I didn't know a lot about it.

5:39Speaker 2:But you know, being a minister of any portfolio, you you learned. That's your job to learn the portfolio. You don't need to be an expert from day one, and no one can say I'm not a hard worker. So I threw myself into that portfolio so that I could really learn the ins and outs of it. I've traveled this state, meeting police right across the state, seeing what they do, the type of work they do. I don't think that there's a command that I haven't been at at least once many several times. I'm really invested in it, and I'm invested in it because I don't think I understood exactly the intersection between police and the rest of the community like I do today, and that is day to day, day in, day out, Police is intersection twenty four hours a day into community in New South Wales is probably the only organization that has that closeness and therefore that's how serious it is and how important it is.

6:40Speaker 2:So I take that very very seriously in my role as their minister.

6:44Speaker 1:For listeners exactly what is your job because it's a very different role to the police commissioner, but you do work very closely with them. So what are you in charge of? What are you doing on a day to day basis.

6:57Speaker 2:Look, my job as Police Minister is to ensure that the New South Wales Police is resourced to do their job, which is keep the community of New South Wales safe. Obviously it's a policy direction as well, like recruitment, the recruitment policy, for instance, getting more boots on the ground, making sure police are staying within the organization, so reducing the attrition rate. Obviously, their pay and conditions of work are very important to me. If we don't look after police, they will walk out the door. So they rely on their minister to make sure that their well being is center and mind of everything, every decision that I make, and of courseslative legislation because they enforce the law. So working hand in glove with the Commissioner to make sure that the laws that we are implementing that the police can then operationalize them.

7:48Speaker 3:On the ground.

7:49Speaker 1:So the Commissioner would come to you with kind of the issues and the problems and then you'll help take that into legislation and law.

7:55Speaker 3:Sure.

7:56Speaker 2:Look, the commission and I speak several times a week, sometimes several times a day. Yeah, yeah, we're very close, and you have to be to do the job right. Yeah, that's my view. And you know, whoever is in charge of whatever we're dealing with at the time, I will speak to the person who makes the decisions within the police. Ultimately that's the Commissioner, but he of course delegates responsibility to other members of his workforce.

8:20Speaker 1:You when you took on these portfolios, I saw you criticize the previous parliament for leaving you with a quote mess. Can you tell me about that? What did you mean by that?

8:29Speaker 2:Oh, it's about their attitude towards police officers themselves and their pay and working conditions. Capping police officers wages sent their wages backwards, and now looking back on it, we were the worst paid police officers in the country.

8:48Speaker 1:Really yep.

8:49Speaker 3:So police were leaving in droves.

8:51Speaker 1:And I mean, I guess that means we're losing quality police officers.

8:54Speaker 2:Well trained, that's right, like police officers at ten eleven, twelve years. Like in fact, I love data and I love evidence. So when we were looking at the wages agreement and going into the bargaining period that happened in twenty twenty three twenty four, I got them to provide to me all the age groups that were leaving and when they were leaving, So it was sort of between that nine and eleven years that's when police were leaving. Of course, they're the most experienced, they're the ones you exactly want to keep. The opposite, So we had to look at how are we going to keep those So we devised their pay and conditions the workplace agreement to specifically target those who were leaving first or the most, and we were really able to customize a great deal which was I think it was unanimously voted in, so they went from the worst paid to the best paid.

9:48Speaker 3:But the other thing was not only were they not.

9:52Speaker 2:Paid properly, they didn't feel supported as a result of that, and there was no wrapping well being around them. A well beeing unit within the New South Wales Police and that's to specifically case manage individual police officers so we can keep our finger on the pulse and say, hey, you really should take some leave. You know, this is the sort of interaction that we want and this is the help that we want to be providing our New South Wales Police. But it was outsourced to some external works compensation scheme and police lost sight they had internally, they had no idea of what was happening to each individual officer. That's not how you look after people, That's not how you look after a workforce. I mean, I have fought hard all of my life for working people, for their paying conditions, and police and are different for me, and that's the one thing they know I've got their back on.

10:43Speaker 1:Would you say that that was your biggest challenge when you came in And how do you think you're going. Is the police force happier?

10:50Speaker 2:Look, well, they certainly happier. They've got more pay one hundred percent and so they should be. So they should be. Then, as I say, they're now the best paid police in the country.

11:00Speaker 3:They know that I've got their back and I do.

11:04Speaker 2:I genuinely have their back because if we don't look after our New South Wales police officers that do a.

11:10Speaker 3:Job like no other.

11:11Speaker 2:Like they do they run towards danger when everyone else is running away from it. And it's a big job, you know, like you see the worst of people on the worst day of their life. But equally it can be extraordinarily rewarding because you've helped someone out, you've managed to help someone in crisis or indeed save someone's life. So I mean it can be two very different jobs on two very different days. But I think ultimately when I talk to police they say to me, it's the best job ever, and thank you so much for looking after us and for supporting us and I'd tell you, what if they do something wrong, If there's an individual officer that does something wrong, and of course that's going to happen, then we should call that out. And I think even the police officers in there, you know, they also believe in that. But ninety nine percent of the time, let me tell you, they're good people, doing credibly hard job, doing it very very well, and most people respect that.

12:05Speaker 1:Was there anything that surprised you when you took on these portfolios got up to speed with them. What surprised you about what you were dealing with?

12:14Speaker 2:Yes, lots of surprises, good surprises and not so good surprises. I think I didn't realize at all that police were so dependent upon across community twenty four hours a day, and people think that they are, you know, their mental health practitioner, a youth counselor a DV you know counselor. Because police were around twenty four hours a day, I felt like every incident that happened, it was why aren't the police doing more? Like That's how I was being questioned, why aren't the police fixing that? Why aren't the police doing this? And I just was this friend set of eyes that came in and sat back and said, hold up, these people are law enforcement officers, then they can't be everything to everyone. That's not how this works. Other departments need to also take some responsibility here, so we need to work collaboratively together to be able to come up with solutions for the community broadly. But the police cannot harbor all of this on their shoulders alone. That's not how this works. And already we're seeing some changes in the mental health incident, so we've got we're to sign a memorandum of understanding with Health soon so that we

13:36Speaker 2:can have the right person, right care. So that's fantastic. In terms of domestic violence, of course, we've got the wdvcas workers now working in police stations in some areas, so people like right next door to a police officer, they're sitting working as a team. So that's fantastic, working very closely with the sector. And there's other examples as well. So it's just a fresh set of eyes coming in going who hold on a minute, this doesn't right, And that's just being practical and being a community member myself.

14:04Speaker 2:And we're seeing some and you know, police like the fact that there's someone there that you know is supporting them and they don't have to be everything to everyone. So that was a surprise to me. But good surprise, like real good surprise is the variance within the organization. Like it's a big organization and you can have seventeen different careers within the one organization.

14:28Speaker 3:It's amazing.

14:29Speaker 2:Like I strongly recommend people check it out if they're looking for a career change. It's you can be anything you want in there. You know, you just got to go through the years of service and you can be anything you want in the New South Wales Police and there's never been a better time to sign up.

14:45Speaker 1:Always recruiting them in a start.

14:46Speaker 3:One hundred percent. I'm dedicated.

14:49Speaker 1:Jemma, you've been in this role for three years now. How do you think you're tracking what's your report card on yourself?

14:55Speaker 2:Oh?

14:56Speaker 3:That's a bit tricky. Are we rely on others to do that for me?

15:01Speaker 2:Look, I feel there's always more work to do, hundred percent, and I will keep looking for new technologies and new ways of doing things because that's the sort of police force we want. We want the police force of the future, and if we just keep doing what we're doing, then we won't be that workforce of the future, and I think people of today, like young recruits of today, are very different to those who were signed up forty years ago. We have to remember that. So it's important that we remain contemporary and ensure that the future workforce want to sign up to the new South Wales Police because they know they can have a long rewarding career there. How am I reporting? Okay, I'm not trying to avoid the questions.

15:42Speaker 1:We're usually our own, our own best critic, so.

15:47Speaker 2:Yeah, well that is true. Look, I think that I'm doing Okay, I'm still there. I mean you might recall that many said that, you know, within my first year I was not going to last very long. Well I've outlasted most of those people who said that, so that's a positive.

16:05Speaker 3:So there you go.

16:07Speaker 1:After the break. Are we actually making progress when it comes to stopping men's violence against women? And why is change in this space taking so long? I want to start with domestic violence because obviously that is a huge topic that we cover here, particularly men's violence against women. We talk about it way too often, way too many cases, horrific cases. We know that improving statistics in this space is an uphill battle. And like you mentioned before, it's a systemic issue. It's not just police, it's not just courts.

16:40Speaker 1:It's kind of a multifaceted area. How do you feel about the progress that we've seen in that space since you've taken on those portfolios? Are we moving in the right direction in New South Wales in improving statistics with DV No?

16:58Speaker 3:No is the answer to that, but depressing.

17:00Speaker 2:I say that with a very heavy heart, and I say it with a heavy heart because there has never been more resources put into the prevention of domestic violence and the crisis end of domestic violence, which is where police intersect then there is today, and that in itself says what in the bloody.

17:22Speaker 3:Hell is going on? Yeah, it's a problem. Yeah.

17:25Speaker 2:Look In saying that, though, let me just tell you a bit about what police are doing, which is certainly, as I say, from more of that crisis end, but they do a bit of prevention as well. So i'll take you through that if that's okay. So they've got a couple of operations which are specific to domestic violence, Operation Emrock now that has occurred just a few weeks ago and some startling results, and I will read them if you don't mind. Operation em Rock, I should just explain to you is a targeted operation targeting high risk domestic violence offenders. So New South Wales police have the Domestic Violence Command. It is the own, first and only in the country and it is specifically designed.

18:08Speaker 3:To look at those.

18:12Speaker 2:Repeat offenders, those recidivus offenders for domestic violence and to have them targeted in operations like this. They also assist every command right around the state, so if there's a domestic violence issue, that all is fed back into the Domestic Violence Command so that they can keep all the data and then use all of that data as intelligence when doing these operations. So just a couple of weeks ago, they run for four days, nine hundred and ninety three arrests, two thousand and sixty three chargers, fourteen three hundred and eighteen advo compliance checks, three hundred and ninety one breuches identified, ninety four firearms and forty eight other weapons were seized.

18:57Speaker 2:I mean, isn't that staggering In four days almost a thousand arrests.

19:02Speaker 1:It's a bit depressing, really, I know it's good news, but it's it's a bit depressing.

19:07Speaker 3:I agree, I agree.

19:09Speaker 1:In one state, might I add, might our remind listeners we're talking about just New South Wales.

19:13Speaker 2:Here exactly, and I assume other states are doing you know, something similar or if not, you know something the same. But on what I might add is it's not just unique to New South Wales. It is across this country and that that too is very concerning. I honestly believe that you know. In addition to that, there's another operation called Operation Surge, which is actually run out of commands themselves, so much more target in local areas. Again, we see numbers that just I find staggering. We also have, because of other legislative changes that we've made around bail and the like, we've got more people, more males on remand than we have ever had. They're bursting at the seat, and a third of those are high risk domestic violence perpetrators that are on remand on remand so they are locked up. But we are still seeing this awful amount of breaches right around the state when Operation in Rocks runs. Now, is it, I think, which is a good thing. Police respond to a domestic violence incident every three minutes. That is alarming. But it's also on the flip side, I think, and both the sector and police tell me women are

20:42Speaker 2:more likely to report they feel that they are being heard, that police are responding and that is a good thing.

20:52Speaker 1:So do you think that could be why we're seeing statistics rise a bit because women are reporting?

20:59Speaker 2:I think anecdote we can say that until we can get some data, like we've got to click data on this stuff, right. So if we look at Boxar Statistics, and they are the independent that they record all of the Bureau of Crime statistics, they report that for New South Wales in most crime categories, in fact, in all crime categories except for three, crime is going down in New South Wales. New South Wales is the safest state in this country except for domestic violence. It's not going up exponentially like it was three years ago when I first came in as minister, but it's still sexual assault and retail crime is the other one that's going out right crime which we police again have put in you know, working with need to talk about retail crime maybe for another day, but.

21:51Speaker 1:They're there about those first two though.

21:53Speaker 3:Yeah, one hundred percent, me too.

21:54Speaker 1:Domestic violence and sexual assault going up like that's.

21:57Speaker 2:Yeah, yep, and that's trend across the country as well.

22:01Speaker 1:The thing like when you were telling me about those operation results, I was like, great, But then the next thing that comes into my brain is but then these people do get bail, and then they might get AVOs, and then they breach those AVOs like we saw them getting picked up for. But women are killed in that period when they go back home or when they're released back into the communing. That's when women are dying. So what do we do with that? Like you mentioned that you've kind of helped bail laws. Are we strengthening stuff there?

22:30Speaker 1:Are we trying to crack down on these AVO breaches. How do we improve that period of a woman's life.

22:36Speaker 2:Well, it's identifying all of those markers which you've just quite rightly pointed out, so.

22:45Speaker 3:It can.

22:46Speaker 2:There are certain markers that police will use to profile a serious domestic violence perpetrator. Choking, if you've split up, that's a serious concern a lot if the relationship has ceased. And there are others as well that police use to as I say, profile a serious domestic violence perpetrator, and they need to make sure obviously they'll have an advo out against them. We need to try to make sure that they are adhering to those which police do do checks on those. But it's hard to regulate really bad human behavior, is the truth of it. But I don't think we should give up. That doesn't mean we're giving up.

23:39Speaker 2:Of course, there are other services in the domestic violence space that also come into play here, and DCJ have a number of different types of preventative and crisis and safety mechanisms that they put in place for women who are in these very, very vulnerable situations. But I would say this, and this is really important to all those women out there listening. If you know something, then say something. I want to use an example of a lovely young woman who I think was in late twenty twenty three, so I was only new to the job. She lived in Liverpool and she was murdered at the hands of her partner. They had split up, but he'd come back into the house. She had a young son and she was allegedly murdered in his hands in her flat. Now it turned out that there were at least three or four of her friends that knew that she had been choked before, that she had experienced violence, that she had been abused, And I just say to anyone listening. If you know that that is happening, then please say something.

24:55Speaker 2:And I know that can be uncomfortable. I was only speaking to someone I know, rec and she told me personally about a friend of hers who she believed was being abused behind closed doors. And I said, you have to say something, and she said, oh, I don't know how to bring this up with my friend.

25:13Speaker 1:Do you mean say something to the friend or say something to police.

25:17Speaker 2:Or I mean say something to both? Quite frankly, really, I think I do it.

25:21Speaker 1:Can police help? Though? Like if I was to go to police and say my friend is being choked and abused, wouldn't they say, okay, we'll get your friend to come and report it? Like how is that? How? How is me reporting that going to help my friend?

25:33Speaker 2:I think this has taken a lot more seriously than what it was years ago. And I think if you are reporting something like that, then police will certainly check it out. And it may not, let's be honest, there are many priorities that they will be dealing with and it will be in a priority yep. But I think and they will address it when they can get to it. But I think if you don't something, and you know something it could be, you know, that conversation that saves that person's life. And I know they're uncomfortable conversation staff, and I know that it's difficult, and I know that instinctively we probably think, oh, we shouldn't say anything, but this can no longer be a silent crime that only happens behind closed doors.

26:23Speaker 3:And it still is. That is the reality. It still is.

26:26Speaker 2:And even though you know, I've heard many people say, oh, you know, it's not that crime anymore, it's Karen Webb told me it's a silent crime, and it is a silent crime and has to stop being a silent crime because I can tell you right now if thirty six footballers or soccer players or hockey players died on the field over a year, there would be a major inquiry into it.

26:52Speaker 1:Well that's the kind of what we keep coming back to. It's like, this is an epidemic, like why are we not doing more? But you're saying we're kind of we're trying to do more.

27:01Speaker 3:Well, police are police?

27:02Speaker 2:Really They've got an empower you app now, so you can actually diorize everything that is occurring in your life, and on that app as well. You can also have a button to send a message to a friend, I need your help. It's in forty different languages. Like we are trying everything we can to assist. You can use the information that you put on that app as evidence. We've made sure that it's at that level that was devised with the sector, so everybody had input into it to make sure that it was acceptable and able to be used. There is now the capacity to be able to if you dial triple zero, you can have a live link with police and a video link with police, so you can talk to them directly. So we're working on how we could adapt that into using that in much more just in a safety environment as well. Again, go back to technology and how important technology is. So police are really doing a lot and I'm really proud that on their minister and that that is the case.

28:12Speaker 2:But statistics are statistics, and quite rightly, as we started this conversation, those statistics are going in the wrong direction.

28:22Speaker 1:Do you all these things that you've talked about. I'm trying to have a bit of hope here. Have we not had enough time to embed those to see the changes? Like do you think that we could push those statistics down. I know that you're only in charge of police. It's such a it's one jigsaw piece. But how do we push these statistics down? Like really?

28:40Speaker 2:Yeah, well, we're certainly arresting and putting them behind bars. That's the statistics that I can tell you as statistic of success in a sense, like these high risk perpetrators are behind bars.

28:53Speaker 3:Again, we all have a role to play here, we really do.

28:56Speaker 2:I think that people need to need to think about conversations that they have with their friends and.

29:05Speaker 3:Supports.

29:06Speaker 2:Great friendship's wonderful, but I think giving them a nudge to let someone know before it's too late is something that the people should think about.

29:15Speaker 1:Let's talk about legislation, because in twenty twenty four, New Southwales criminalized course of control as a standalone offense. Have we seen improvements from that.

29:28Speaker 3:In the space yeah?

29:30Speaker 2:Co Well, we've had a number of arrests, which is a positive thing, which means the law is working. Coursive control is the long tail. It can take quite a long time to for police to be able to get the body of evidence together to then make the charge. But every police officer has been trained in it, so that's a good thing. But I mean, it's an odious way of controlling people.

30:02Speaker 1:Yeah, and it shows like it's hard to criminalize, Like we've got this law, great, but how do we actually put it into practice? Because with the ABC report that I read that was the year to twenty twenty four July, they had two hundred and ninety seven reports of course of control in that year, nine charges and one conviction. So it's like the law's great, but we're not seeing the results at the end.

30:29Speaker 2:I think it will take a little bit of time for coercive control to be as intended at its best, for like the laws itself, to be used to their full potential. And it's only because not because police aren't trying. Its awareness people knowing that they have that as a law and that they can report that type of coercive behavior as a criminal behavior. So it's certainly educating people. It's also, as I say, it takes a long time to build that body of evidence and for the prosecutions to then take place.

31:06Speaker 3:So I think we will review it.

31:10Speaker 2:There's a review mechanism in the legislation, and we will review it, and we will continue to review it. But that's not a good enough reason to get rid of it, Gemma. Now it's something that I feel very very strongly about because you know, it is certainly a precursor that coercive behavior is also a precursor to homicide. So again, the more people and particularly women know about coercive control and the fact that it is a criminal behavior and is treated as such in New South Wales, then I think the more that we will see prosecutions in relation to that piece of legislation.

31:51Speaker 1:Am I right in saying that you're also trying to make covert stalking a criminal offense?

31:55Speaker 2:Oh? Yeah, we have, that's right, Yeah, one hundred percent. So what we're seeing is in vehicles, men being able to track women in their vehicles, using surveillance equipment to track women as well obviously on their phones or again in their vehicles. Yes, so stalking is that it will absolutely be a COVID defense as well as it should be.

32:20Speaker 1:So that's something that we're still waiting to kind of go through everything it needs to go through, or it is an offense.

32:24Speaker 2:It's in our legislation that just went through the house in New South Wales, so soon soon.

32:33Speaker 3:Be assented too soon.

32:35Speaker 2:It's hard to believe as a woman that you know you would be surveilled like this by the person that you most trust.

32:42Speaker 1:But the fact we need legislation for it shows it's happening so much.

32:46Speaker 2:That's right, that's right, and with you know, consequences that can be murder.

32:53Speaker 1:Stock sexual assault, let's talk about that. We know that it's an area that's notoriously hard to get convictions in. We also know that New South Wales police have a massive backlog of sexual assault investigations. Were you aware of how dire the situation was when you took on the portfolio?

33:11Speaker 3:Look, no, I wasn't. But it's shocking.

33:18Speaker 2:I just I find you know, societies, the whole of society with sexual assault. I just find it mind blowing. I can't believe it, and I can't believe those statistics are still on the rise. What is going on out there with our young men? I don't understand, Well, not just young men, it's just men generally. And I think that we need to have a podcast chat about that at some point to quite frankly, being a girl, mum.

33:43Speaker 1:Yes I feel you, not all men, but it's enough man.

33:47Speaker 2:No, I no, that's exactly right. And you know, I don't want to criticize all blokes. I mean, you know, lots of good blokes and lots of good bloke that blokes that are women champions too, which are fantastic, But sexual assault and the rise of sexual assault is just very very concerning. The backlogs with police are you know, it's not okay. We will continue to work though to get through those. The people who are working on those cases take them very very seriously, thank goodness, and that's important.

34:17Speaker 2:I think I don't think it's always been the case that women have felt that they have been believed. I think that's a fact, So I don't think I'm saying anything that's not already out there, and that in itself is shocking. So I think it's very important that they at least feel believed, and I'm hopeful again that that is why we are seeing an increase, because people are coming forward. Police have in recent times developed Sorrow, which is a sexual assault reporting tool, so you can if you've been the victim of a sexual assault, you can now report that crime on Sorrow and you can remain anonymous if you choose. But then if some to report the incident, but then some time down the track you might want to actually prosecute and take that to police so you.

35:02Speaker 1:Can make that choice later, Yeah, which I think is appropriate. Well, a lot of people don't make the decision until, you know, years sometimes down the.

35:13Speaker 2:Track spot of that's right, So that's what I mean. I think that's appropriate. That you've been able to do that, So that's a good thing now, and that those statistics are added now to the Bierau of statistics, the ones we talked of earlier, So I think that that is a positive as well. But you know, again, at last are at the crisis end, and it's the societal problems that we've got to try to look at. Why is this happening?

35:43Speaker 3:Why?

35:44Speaker 2:What do people feel? What do men feel it's okay to assault a woman at any time anywhere?

35:51Speaker 1:It's so those wait times. Are you suggesting that they're so long because there's so many that they have to get to, Well, it's it's a men issue of so many instances, rather than a police not keeping up with the number of reports.

36:09Speaker 3:I think that it's probably a bit of both.

36:11Speaker 1:Yeah.

36:11Speaker 2:Quite frankly, we have to we'd two and a half thousand cops short, and we need to get more boots on the ground and I'm super focused on that and that's why the recruiting is. It's going well at the moment, which is fantastic, but we need more boots on the ground, will mean more cases will be solved, and that's just cheer maths.

36:31Speaker 1:Right up next, I ask the new South Wales Minister for Police and Counter Terrorism about the Bondai terror attack and what her movements were on that day. Let's move on to the December twenty twenty five terror attack on Bondi Beach. Firstly, I want to ask you where were you when that was happening and what was your reaction as it started to kind of unfold.

36:55Speaker 2:I was at home in the Hunter and the Commissioner called me a few minutes after he had been told and I got in the car immediately and drove to Sydney. Horror, deer, horror, like everyone else, disbelief, like is this really happening on our iconic beach just before Christmas? Like it was shocking, absolutely shocking, and obviously I was being updated whilst I was driving to Sydney.

37:34Speaker 1:And where did you drive to? Where were you coming to?

37:37Speaker 2:I went straight to police headquarters and met the Premier there and the Police commissioner there and we got a full briefing and then we did a media stand up and then we went straight to Wandai. We went to the police station down there, which ironically there Waverley Station is being renovated, so all of the police were working Bondi most of them anyway, because of the renovation going ahead Rose Bay and bond Die. So there were a lot of police there. As I say, not necessarily, just through the fact that this renovation is underway. And as we walked around there there were police officers from everywhere.

38:21Speaker 2:Police officers just put on their uniform and got in the car and drive to a bondo. They didn't ring up and ask, They just got in the car and they drive a bondo. There was one police officer there from the Hunter.

38:34Speaker 1:They'd gotten in the car when you did.

38:35Speaker 2:Probably you know, that's the sort of quality of people that we have in the New South Wales Police.

38:42Speaker 1:So in the wake of this tragedy, you managed to get a bill amended passed just before Christmas, and it was Christmas eve you got these new laws passed. Can you tell us about why you were so determined to get that through so quickly? After the attack.

39:00Speaker 2:Yeah, it's pretty easy. People wanted action. They wanted action from their government. They wanted to see that their government was strong, decisive and prepared to do what was required. Removing guns from our community was one of those things that people definitely understood was a positive thing. Making sure that we look at and changed the legislation in relation to hate crimes was critically important. And putting in place, which we've subsequently done with the police, putting in place a special rapid response squad.

39:44Speaker 1:The Bondo Beach terror attack wasn't the first anti Semitic attack we'd seen. Jewish Australians have been living in fear since, you know, twenty twenty three, So why then, why didn't we do it early when they were yelling out for help. Why did it take the attack to change the laws.

40:04Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good question, and I think if I had my time over again, I would have been having very different conversations with my caucus colleagues and with cabinet colleagues. But I don't unfortunately, But you're quite right, you know, the eastern suburbs, particularly of our state or our city, we're experiencing hateful, just hateful hate. Well, we called it the Summer of hate in fact, which was the summer of twenty four and it was absolutely shocking, and I was certainly not proud of who we were. You know, I go to and have been going for I've been a member for nearly twelve years. I go to a lot of citizenship ceremonies, and at those ceremonies a line I always used, because I'm so proud of it, is we welcome you to be part of our multicultural tapestry, which so successful in this country, in this state and in Lake Macquarie.

41:05Speaker 3:I didn't feel like that then.

41:07Speaker 2:I didn't feel like that then, and I haven't felt like that since October twenty twenty three.

41:13Speaker 1:I think Jewish Australians would say the same. They kind of felt like they were yelling and no one was listening.

41:17Speaker 2:Yeah, well we put you know, different things in place, but you're right, they're right.

41:28Speaker 1:Protests. During your tenure, you've been accused of being not heavy handed enough, too heavy handed. You've had both sides of the coin. I'm talking about the October twenty twenty three pro Palestinian protests and then more recently the Israeli president visited and you were accused of being too heavy handed. Did the first kind of reaction inform the second reaction in terms of your approach to those two incidents?

41:57Speaker 2:Absolutely, ah, And I think for all the right reasons. I mean, those vile scenes down on the steps of the opera house, of flames being set off, burning flags were viewed around the world, and we were seen, and probably rightly so, as a society that was celebrating the deaths and killings of innocent residents in Israel overseas. I mean shocking, awful, horrible, and yeah, you bet it informed the every decision made from then on, because it's a government's responsibility to keep your community safe, and our Jewish community felt the exact opposite to that. And whilst I the government and the police support protests, we support peaceful protests within the framework of the law.

43:03Speaker 1:But then with these recent ones when the Israeli president came, I mean, there's been eight hundred complaints about police heavy handedness, So do we go too far in the other direction?

43:14Speaker 2:Look, it was a very volatile situation. Obviously, we had the one group at town Hall who were protesting against the Israeli president, who was less than a kilometer away as the crow flies down at the ICC again, I just go back to community safety and keeping the community safe. But I will add one other thing to this, and that is that the protesters on that day, led by Josh Lees, the ones at town Hall, they had made an agreement with the police that it would not be a march, they would not march, that it would be stagnant, a stagnant protest. They had made that agreement, and then towards the end of their speeches, as I understand it, they were all starting to close up, and people had some people had already started walking off and going home.

44:02Speaker 2:There was a group that insisted on defying those agreements that had been made and insisted on taking the police on. Now the police had a job to do there, and that was they'd made very clear that no one was going to march. They'd been offered different routes, a different place to be, but no, no, no, nothing was good enough. And you know, at the end of the day, the LEK, the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission, as you say, there's been complaints made to them, eight hundred of them. They will review each and every one of those and if there was poor behavior, bad behavior, et cetera. Then that will be called out as it should be. That is why we have the LEK. They are there. It's the only one in the country that specifically looks at our law enforcement arm. We're the only ones that have got it in the country.

44:53Speaker 3:Yep. So that's there.

44:54Speaker 1:It's independent of the plant.

44:55Speaker 2:That's right, and other jurisdictions have other types, but not that just looks at the law enforcement in our state.

45:03Speaker 3:So that's their job. Let them do their job.

45:06Speaker 2:I support our police keeping our community safe. On that day, tensions were high. We needed to take the heat out of it. I would do the same again.

45:16Speaker 1:As that protest made media headlines, we did see actual footage on our TV screens of police being not just heavy handed, but quite violent with protesters. What was it like for you to watch that?

45:28Speaker 2:There is no place for violence on our streets zero. I have zero tolerance for it and it doesn't matter who that is. But that will be investigated by the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission, and if they find any wrongdoing, then those police officers will be dealt with equally.

45:46Speaker 3:Though. All of that footage will also be looked.

45:49Speaker 2:At by police and if anybody has broken the law, then they too will be dealt with. There was any number of cameras and body worm cameras on that particular night, and all of that footage will be used as evidence.

46:04Speaker 1:I need to bring up Claire Nolland because it was a big pressure point for you. For listeners who don't know that name. She was a ninety five year old aged care home resident and she was fatally tasered by a New South Wales officer in twenty twenty three. That senior constable has since been found guilty of manslaughter. There was a lot of criticism about your response, the Commissioner's response, from all kinds of sides that the criticism I'm most interested in is the accusation that you were more focused on defending New South Wales Police during the controversy than acknowledging the public concern about the use of force against a frail, older lady. How do you reflect on your handling of that incident.

46:49Speaker 2:Well, again, the use of any force is an operational matter for the New South Wales Police and I know.

46:59Speaker 3:Some people will feel but I'm not a police officer.

47:04Speaker 2:I think that's very important that we know that I am not and I have to be guided by them. I think that it was shocking, that's first and foremost, and I have to say I said that of a shocking.

47:14Speaker 3:Like but should it have been used? Shouldn't it have been used?

47:18Speaker 2:That is a decision that has then been played out, As you say, in the courts. There was a critical investigation also undertaken at the time, and LEK were also there. They stand side by side when there's a critical investigation taking place from the police, and rightly so, they are the people who should be determining whether or not or what type of force should be used. Who should have been there, should they not have been there at all? All of those things obviously are examined. Look, I think, you know, going back to your point, before I get criticized for doing too much not doing enough, I accept that criticism on reflection. Again, I just think it was shocking that a woman lost her life whilst she was in her nineties. She was very sprightly, and I spoke to her family, and I don't know if I've told anyone that I've spoken to her family, to be honest with you, and she may have been that age, but she certainly was still very according to them, very fit, still very with it. I mean she was jumping out of a plane, not that many years before, believe it or not, parachuting. So she was clearly a woman of

48:32Speaker 2:spirit and had lived life to the fullest.

48:35Speaker 3:And is that the way that you'd.

48:37Speaker 2:Want your grandma or your mom, or your aunt or family member to go and be remembered?

48:45Speaker 3:No, absolutely not. It was shocking.

48:49Speaker 1:Why did you decide to speak to her family?

48:51Speaker 2:I felt that on behalf of the government that that's very important. I speak to lots of victims, families, family men.

49:00Speaker 1:Were they appreciative of hearing from you, given that it was a police officer that Yes, yes.

49:06Speaker 2:They were very polite and very a beautiful family, a very big family because there were lots of kids, but they were a beautiful family.

49:15Speaker 3:Yeah.

49:15Speaker 1:So, in the wake of Claire's death, an organization did reach out across Australia and offered dementia training to police officers. Do you think that that could be an important area because I know that New South Wales is yet to take up that offer, only the Northern Territory has.

49:33Speaker 2:Oh, look, it might be something that law enforcement could look at. I do know they do have a lot of different modules that they deal with down at Goldburn during that training period. For instance, Autism Australia provides some assistance which is really useful, particularly when a child with autism goes missing. There are certain things that you should put in place specifically for people or young people with autism, which was fascinating. I found it fascinating, and a whole host of other types of modules addressing specific groups as well.

50:08Speaker 2:So it's certainly something that we could mention and look at.

50:12Speaker 1:This criticism of you know, I'm saying in quotations the too heavy handed and defending police of being heavy handed. That seems to come up a lot, you know, the protests clean now and can you see where it's coming from. Do you see that criticism's point of view?

50:27Speaker 2:I can see that people are saying that and why they're saying that. But again police are our law enforcement officers and we don't want them doing the wrong thing, that's for sure, and they will be called out if they are, you know, and we've seen that over and over again. Just in the short time that I've been the minister. There have been a number of police removed from the New South Wales Police Force because of excessive force or bad behavior. Or both and as they should be.

51:03Speaker 2:Quite frankly, that's just in short three years. So you know, it is a case that it's I'm not defending or standing up for excessive force. No way in the world. We should not have violence on our streets, and violence on our streets should definitely not be from police officers. And as I say, if that is the case, then the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission will investigate that and will provide recommendations as they should.

51:32Speaker 3:That's what their job is.

51:34Speaker 2:The New South Wales Police is the organization that people will pick up the phone to ring triple zero when they need them, and I have to say that that is most people's interaction with police. Now your listeners might sit here and think that I'm defending them meet again, but that's just a reality. They go to nearly two million, they get nearly two million calls a year.

51:58Speaker 1:It's insane numbers, isn't it.

52:00Speaker 2:Yeah, So you know, I get that, and we hear a lot about the bad behavior, and we hear a lot about use of force, and again call it out if that is the case, yeah, because you should. But in some context then I would say remember also that the twenty thousand police officers people in the New South Wales police that we have out there. It's the large organization. Ninety nine percent of them are not doing that.

52:32Speaker 1:Youth crime another very hot topic at the moment all over the country. Really, I know we're talking about New South Wales, but our listeners are from everywhere and it is you know, you see it playing out in Melbourne and Victoria and Queensland. We're constantly hearing about regional crime waves involving young people. This is something that you've recently tackled with some legislation. Can you talk us through what those changes are and what you're hoping we'll see from them.

53:00Speaker 2:Yeah, I think if you don't mind, I'll just start at the beginning. And again, this was coming into the cabinet root and our cabinet is fifty percent women, and this youth crime wave began. Anyway, we're sitting around and you know, these new set of eyes sitting there going well, hold up, this is just isn't all police. So we just kind of rest our way out of this. This is a problem and these are young people who we need to put on a different path. So speaking to the Attorney General, the Minister for Corrections, juvenile justice, et cetera, et cetera. There's about six of us in the portfolios, right, and so we're like, yeah, we've got to do something else than just arrest these kids. There has to be more to this. So that's why we made the legislative changes.

53:48Speaker 2:So police made some changes. They had Operation Seteria and Operations sweeten Them, which is Sweetnam is here in the city in metropolitan areas. Operation Sateria is out in our regional areas, and that was a real focus on hot crime spot areas. So that was important and that took a lot of the ring leaders out of the equation. And you know, Touchwood, we haven't been It is a lot more under control as we sit here today. But some other areas of concern were the posting and boasting.

54:21Speaker 2:So they were stealing cars and going on joy rides, filming it and then posting it. So that is now an offence. Break and enter into a home, so they are so brazen breaking and entering into a home filming that in some instances as well, like while people are sleeping with a knife over their head and the like, like horrific.

54:44Speaker 1:It just teen ages, it's just wild, well.

54:47Speaker 2:Young teenagers some of them like eleven twelve thirteen, I know, I know, I was still playing with Barbie.

54:55Speaker 1:We're near a knife, but anyway.

55:00Speaker 3:Me either.

55:01Speaker 2:Also, I would have got into massive trouble if you weren't in better sleep, they would have got into big trouble at my house. There's those changes that we've made, and so to break and enters, then the judge has to consider whether or not to give you bail or not. So we're seeing that change, which has been good. But the thing that's most significant is the funding that we've sent through through all of us working together, the funding that we've injected into those communities for preventative and proactive results, and we're getting some really good results, which is fantastic, we're told by locals on the ground, so that's good.

55:41Speaker 2:And we're also in Ma re building the place based facility there where if you have a recidivius defender, they can choose to go there and they'll have wrap around services, etc. So they'll be safe, they'll get the care they need and will have health there as well education, so the services will be wrapped around them and we hope to really steer those young people away from crime to a better life, and.

56:12Speaker 1:It sounds like we're already seeing some results there.

56:15Speaker 2:I think. So. I think it's I don't want to get to you know, talk it up too much. There's always more work to do. Like you know, there's crime in these little rural towns or big rural towns really and remote and regional areas. But we're seeing some green shoots. Police are saying that, community are saying that, like, you can't just go into a community and do this, that and the other. And I think that's the thing that this government has done really well. We've worked with the community, so local government will be at the table, the local services will be at the table, education, health, you name it.

56:54Speaker 2:We work collaboratively and I have traveled this state with police doing exactly that, working with the community stakeholders for solutions. We're not here to point the finger, We're not here to do anything but solutions. And if we can change some of those young people's lives out of the criminal justice system onto a successful life, then wow, what a wonderful legacy that would be.

57:23Speaker 1:What about systemic bias against Indigenous people in our country. Are we're seeing any green shoots in the right direction there? Because that is an issue that we've had for years, decades, long before you ever took these portfolios. But last year in New South Wales recorded near record Indigenous deaths in custody. What do we do with that information? How do we fix this?

57:46Speaker 3:Well, you're quite right.

57:48Speaker 2:Also, our rates of incarceration are increasing, and particularly women. We have to continue to keep working.

57:57Speaker 3:Away at this.

57:58Speaker 2:I want to say this though, my mate, the Minister for the Community Services, Kate Washington, she has and she's one of those women that sits around that table with me beging the table.

58:12Speaker 3:She has.

58:15Speaker 2:There are now no children living in hotels who are in out of home care now. There were more than a hundred when we came to government, and these were kids who were too hard, too difficult, it had been had horrible, awful lives. So we're chipping away. We're chipping away and a lot of those kids would have been First Nations kids, to be fair. So she's doing great work, amazing work in that area. But there's so much to do. I have to be honest with you, Emma, there is so much to do. There is a lot of societal need and I think working as a group and bouncing stuff off each other and working collaboratively instead of just working in silos is making some difference. I get it that people think it's a glacial pace, but we really are just digging away, digging away. Like everything that happens in police world, I'm like, that's the crisis, en, So I'm in there so as police don't have to do that.

59:23Speaker 2:So they're out doing other stuff, because that's the goal, right, Yeah, not to be locking up kids. Very true, that's the goal, you know. Obviously, I don't know that I'll ever be able to meet that absolute goal, but putting kids on a different pathway, you know. Giving We were up in Teenworth with the Premiere actually making an announcement about a significant investment into youth services, and there was a group up there and I just can't recall their name now, but I'll come back to you with the name of them, and they were they had Indigenous kids and they were setting them on a pathway into jobs and their success rates were fantastic. These are the sorts of organizations that the Premier and I assist supporting because they've got you know, they're not just doing a service and you don't sort of see any outcomes. They're actually delivering the goods and that's what you want to see. And the kids were there, the young young men, they're all young men, and I was sitting chatting with them and they were just telling me it was fantastic, you know, yet helping them get their license, helping them the things we all take for granted,

1:00:31Speaker 2:many of us, and these kids don't have the role models in there or the stable family life that we take for granted, and having people in community replacing those roles is critical. They're the biggest hearted, most valuable people that you'd ever wished to meet, and they are wrapping themselves around these kids, assisting them to leave crime and to go on a pathway away from crime into be a success.

1:01:03Speaker 3:Amazing.

1:01:03Speaker 1:Ivan Malatt, it's a name most listeners will know. He's come up a lot in some of the cold cases that have been covered in New South Wales. We've had a lot of missing and murdered women and his name has popped up as a potential kind of perpetrator in those cases. And now we're looking at a New South Wales parliamentary inquiry into some of those cases. I know that you don't have much involvement in that inquiry. But as police minister, what are your thoughts on it and what has been your involvement in it?

1:01:35Speaker 2:Yeah, so Jeremy Buckingham is the lead on this inquiry and I have actually worked closely with Jeremy as the Police Minister in terms of having him be briefed by senior police, making sure that he's aware of what the work police are doing. I think it's often the case that we don't understand or have any knowledge of what police are actually doing in the background because they don't tell us much so.

1:02:06Speaker 3:Secrets for a reason, correct, correct.

1:02:09Speaker 2:So in saying that though, when there's an inquiry like this, because it was quite broad reaching and we have to make sure that we don't use all the police resources that we've got on that whilst over here we've got you know, domestic violent, public play shootings, ye, CANi, terrorism issues, all of that sort of stuff. I don't think I need to describe to your listeners, well, the work they do. Yeah that's right, Yeah, yeah, your listeners no priorities are right.

1:02:33Speaker 3:They're a woman, a mother, a wife, all of a daughter.

1:02:37Speaker 2:Going to make sure we fit mum and dad in it sometime as well. So I have actually assisted a lot to make sure that he has been fully briefed and that the scope of the inquiry is quite specific.

1:02:51Speaker 3:So that's a good thing, but it doesn't.

1:02:53Speaker 1:Waste correctly, say resources, time, et cetera.

1:02:55Speaker 3:Spot on, that's right.

1:02:56Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's great when it gets going and and the scope is quite specific, and police are more that happy to work with him. Like from our perspective, we're more than happy to work with him. There'll be other people coming in of course, but into the inquiry. But yeah, no police, I think that he would say that they've been fantastic.

1:03:17Speaker 1:It is crazy to think that we're going to have an inquiry into Ivan Malat. He's been dead many years now. His crimes were you know, a few decades ago. Yeah.

1:03:24Speaker 2:Police haven't discounted though that there may be other murders that they discover that he has been part of, So I do know that for sure. So they're quite you know, open minded about you know, if they do find any that they've got the evidence there to be able to make the links. Like when we were talking about having the evidence, making sure we keep all of the evidence you know in a state that's easy to find, and we put a lot of money into doing that, which is great. Prior to the Special Commission of Inquiry by Justice Sucker, there was evidence in different locations around the state.

1:04:05Speaker 2:We've now bought all of that together, which is critically important, and it's all been properly logged, etc.

1:04:12Speaker 1:I'm curious about the personal side of this job, because, as we've touched on, it is one that attracts a lot of criticism, you know, a lot of anger from members of the public. Has your personal safety or your family's personal safety been something you've had to think about sadly?

1:04:27Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, But don't you find that You know, people are so willing now to be a keyboard warrior and say whatever the bloody.

1:04:36Speaker 1:Hell they want behind a screen.

1:04:38Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm pretty I'm just pretty charp for right. And if somebody wants to say something to me, come and say it to me. I'll have the conversation with you, and whether we agree or not, that's fine. But I don't walk away from my problems. I don't walk away from If I've done something wrong, I'll admit it. I don't walk away from me. And that's just who I am. I think growing up in a working class family with not much. And that's just who I am. But if you've got a criticism of me, you know, come and see me. My family are not in this job.

1:05:15Speaker 3:It's my job.

1:05:16Speaker 2:My staff, they're not open game either. I worry about them. There are a lot of people out there who are that type things that I don't think those words would ever exit their mouth. And they're vile, they're offensive, and they're threatening.

1:05:31Speaker 1:Which is not fair. You're just doing your job.

1:05:33Speaker 3:True. Yeah, Look, I'm not alone. Unfortunately.

1:05:36Speaker 2:I think public figures generally are probably receiving more vitriol than ever before. And I mean good. We've seen murders, you know, in both the UK. That young MP that was out doing a street store got stabbed. We saw the America shooting like I hope to god we never see that here. But again, if you know of anyone who's doing it, then call it out, like I saw that stuff on the thing about Justinta Allen down in ditch the witch.

1:06:12Speaker 3:You know what that is wrong?

1:06:15Speaker 2:Call it out, And I say this, go back, This is a lesson I learned from the Jewish community quite frankly, go back to our conversation and back to twenty twenty three and they felt vulnerable and they felt like they were being attacked, and listen to them, Listen to them and act don't accept it. Don't accept it for women because it's that sort of behavior that leads to the type of behavior that we talked about, the control the behaviors. Ultimately, it could be the death of a woman. If we don't call all this stuff out, then shame on us.

1:06:54Speaker 1:Lastly, Yasmond, what do you want true crime conversations and listeners to walk away from our listening to us? Because every week they're hearing about the most horrible things that humans can do to other people, and often, unfortunately, they're also hearing about, you know, issues that the victims or families are coming up against with police or courts or perpetrators getting back out. What do you want them to take from hearing about the inside process of what it means to change the systems.

1:07:26Speaker 2:It's a pretty simple message from me, and it's if you see something that does not sit right with you, then report it. That means, if you see a person treating someone wrong, report it or say something to someone. If you see a police officer doing the wrong thing, do the same. If you see anybody harassing a person because of their race or their sexuality or that they're a female, say something. If we don't stand up for one another and become that society that look after each other, then we will continue to disintegrate.

1:08:08Speaker 1:So you think even within those systems, the police systems, speak up if it's not working for you. In the court systems, yes, one hundred percent.

1:08:15Speaker 2:There are so many oversight bodies there to look at these things. Go to your local member. I mean, I'm a local member at the end of the day and I have people coming in telling me all sorts of grievances with whoever it is. It's usually the last protocol, you know. They people are frustrated and they've called this one and done this and done that, and they've just like hit a brick wall and then they end up in my office on the specific highway it Swansea. They come in and I say, well, sit down and let's go through it.

1:08:48Speaker 3:So we do.

1:08:49Speaker 2:And it's important that you do do that, and maybe you may not get the result that you were looking for, but you'll certainly have it looked at. That's what's important. And you need to know that in a democracy, in our democracy, that you have the ability to do that because of our electoral system that we're our voting system, the person that is there that you elected will stand up for you.

1:09:10Speaker 1:I think that's a good place to end. Thank you for joining us, Yasmin.

1:09:13Speaker 3:It's been a pleasure.

1:09:14Speaker 1:Thank you to Yasmin Katley for joining us on this episode. If you liked this episode, please leave us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify to let us know. And if you aren't following us on TikTok and Instagram, our handle is true Crime Conversations. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week with another true Crime Conversation.