Goal Setting On The Run With Joan Benoit Samuelson

0:00SPEAKER_02:Hey everyone, Emily Abadi here, host of the Hurdle podcast and producer of the After Dark Tour series on Coach Bennett's podcast. I'm popping in before today's episode because it's a big day. Coach's new book, This Is About Running, This Is Not About Running, is officially on sale. One of the chapters in this book features Joan Benoit Samuelson, so launching her episode today felt especially fitting. If you're new to her story, Joni is one of the most influential people our sport has ever known.

0:32SPEAKER_02:She made history as the first ever Olympic gold medalist in the women's marathon in 1984. And more than four decades later, she's still inspiring runners everywhere through her advocacy, mentorship, and unwavering love of the sport. You may have also seen her helping shape some of running's newest traditions. Last year, she joined Nike to announce the return of the After Dark Tour from the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum, the very place where she won Olympic gold, helping connect one of the most iconic moments in running history to a new generation of runners.

1:07SPEAKER_02:She's thoughtful, generous, and endlessly passionate about what running can mean in our lives. To be candid, she's one of the most inspiring women I've ever met. I know you're gonna love this conversation and Joni as much as I do. Enjoy the episode and don't forget to check out Coach's book in the show notes.

1:32SPEAKER_01:If you're really going after a goal, you have to be true to yourself. You have to be honest with yourself. Keep chasing, keep looking at the runners ahead of you. It's like fishing. You cast your line and you hope. And when you start at the starting line, you're casting a line and you're going after it. If you improve upon the goal you set, that's awesome. If you fall short of that goal, at least you tried and at least you know you're gonna try again.

2:04SPEAKER_00:Welcome to Coach Bennett's podcast, the Nike After Dark Tour series, where every run has a purpose, where kindness is hardcore, where this is about running, and it's also not about running. This is where running meets storytelling, and where we make more room for women at the starting line and behind the mic. We're celebrating the women who run, who lead, and who lift others up along the way. Because every run should feel like it's yours. This week's guest is Joni.

2:34SPEAKER_00:That's right. Joan Benoit Samuelson. And there are a lot of ways to tell her story. You could start with the Olympic gold medal, you could start with the records, you could start with the hundred and fifty thousand miles. But Joni would probably tell you that the numbers aren't the story. The story is everything that happened along the way. The scary goals, the setbacks, the pivots, the moments when the plan changed and she had to change with it.

3:02SPEAKER_00:And that's what this conversation is about. We talk about setting goals that make your stomach flip a little, and why listening to your body is just as important as pushing it. And about what happens when you stop treating your running journey like a straight line and start seeing it as a story that's still being written. Because more than forty years after becoming the first women's Olympic marathon champion, Joni is still doing what great runners do learning, evolving, finding new reasons to keep showing up.

3:35SPEAKER_00:And that's why she continues to inspire so many people, myself included. Not because she knows what's next, but because she's still curious enough to find out. But before we get into it, one more thing. Every episode, I want to share something from you a question, a story, a moment. So if you've got something to share, head over to bit.ly slash after dark pod. That's b-i-t.ly backslash a f t e r k-o-d to leave your message. Stick around for the end of the episode to hear from Allison from Seattle.

4:16SPEAKER_00:But first, enjoy my conversation with the legend herself, my friend Joni. I'm Coach Bennett. Let's start. Joni, so happy to have you on here. How are you doing today?

4:35SPEAKER_01:I am doing well today. The sun is shining. The mercury hasn't topped 90 yet. The humidity's low, and it's a good day to get outside.

4:46SPEAKER_00:Well, with beautiful weather like that, you got to tell us where you are because I don't know if anyone has great weather like that right now. So tell us where you are.

4:53SPEAKER_01:I am at home, believe it or not. I am in Freeport, Maine, and I will head out to a coastal island later today. I was hoping to take the call out there, but uh the internet service out there is a little spotty, so I decided to stay at home where I know the uh internet service is much more dependable, but uh the person doing the interview is not all that capable when it comes to new technology. So here I am, and we're connected, so that's a good thing.

5:25SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I would say both sides of this conversation are not too great on technology, but we're here today. Supposedly, this is being recorded, so that's awesome too. During the intro, we talked a little bit about some of the highlights, not all of the highlights, because that would be an entire episode in and of itself. But what I want to know, and I think what the listeners would love to know, is running for you right now. Tell us a little bit about what that means and how you involve yourself and experience running today.

5:55SPEAKER_01:Well, I thought you were gonna ask me to write a book to follow up on. You're about to be published and famous. Not that you're not famous enough right now, but um I enjoyed reading your book. And by the way, you talk just like you write, or you write just like you talk. I don't know which comes first, but um, honest to God, you could have been standing there reading to me or looking me in the eye and telling me everything I need to know about running.

6:22SPEAKER_01:So running for me today means um, well, I just to be totally candid and honest, I feel blessed to still be running. It was almost 42 years ago that I had the opportunity to run in LA. And um the fact that uh 150,000 miles, I don't know how many marathons, um, because I don't take notes anymore. I refer to my career in two phases, B C and AD, before children and after diapers. So 150,000 miles, two children, two grandchildren later, that became a very secondary or tertiary or even down further the line, and I just run and I run the way I feel.

7:07SPEAKER_01:Every day's different. I had a partial knee replacement in the middle of COVID, and I waited until I found the surgeon who said I'd run again. A lot of people were naysayers, and I didn't take that for an answer because running is a very big part of my life, but I've found balance through the sport of running. So I do a lot of other activities. I would say my gardening and my cycling is a little more impressive right now than my running, but uh I ran the LL Bean 10K on the 4th of July.

7:36SPEAKER_01:It's the only race I've run consecutively since the Olympics in LA. I haven't missed a year since 1985, except for the two COVID years when we had to do our own 10K. And uh so I feel lucky that I can still do that. And next year's the 50th anniversary of the race, and I may stop there, but I said I was gonna stop marathoning in 2008 when the Olympic trials were in Boston, and then I discovered this thing called storytelling. Have you discovered that thing?

8:04SPEAKER_00:I'm I'm into it. I'm especially into the stories you tell.

8:07SPEAKER_01:So I tell stories in order to motivate myself. And so here we are talking about running, or maybe we're not talking about running. I don't know.

8:15SPEAKER_00:I think we're talking a little bit about both. And I think one of the best parts about what I get out of your running now is the storytelling aspect and not just the stories that you tell. I think the people that run into you then get to tell their own stories. I mean, one of my favorites was I believe this was in it was in Eugene, I think it was the World Championships, and we had a group run leaving the Nike Eugene store. And we must have had 150 or 200 people there, and everyone headed out on a run.

8:46SPEAKER_00:And I was kind of hanging out in the back, and you were up front, kind of leading the group, and there were three women, probably in their 60s, and they came by and I said, What group is this? And I said, Oh, we've got a just a special kind of celebratory run, being in town for world championships. And if you look up ahead, you'll see a woman in a hat. That's Joan Benoit Samuelson. And now they were in the middle of their long run, and they said, You gotta be kidding me.

9:12SPEAKER_00:I said, I'm serious. I'm like, if you catch up, you'll be running with her. For the next 30 minutes, these women ran a tempo run. And some of them it turned into a race to get up to. And I remember two of them made it up to you. And the third, her name was Sally, she was struggling to make it the last maybe it was a hundred yards or so. And her friends must have told you because you turned around and you yelled, Let's go, Sally, get up here. I do remember that.

9:41SPEAKER_00:And she put on the jets and she ran all the way up there, got to you, and then there was this beautiful moment where the four of you were running across, and there was a photographer there, and he caught the moment and he told the ladies, he said, Give me your you know, emails and I'll send you the picture. And he sent them the picture, and for the rest of their lives, because no one probably believed them when they came home finishing this random long run that they got to run with Joan Benoit Samuels.

10:09SPEAKER_00:Everyone probably was like, Yeah, whatever. And now they have this picture up, which is, I think, one of the great gifts that you give is not just sharing your story, but people then get to share their own stories because of having met you. So I know you said it may be your last 10K next year at Elo Bean. You mentioned it was gonna be your last marathon back in 2008. As long as the last one keeps being added on, I think we're all good because you've you've gifted this whole community with with millions of their own stories.

10:39SPEAKER_00:So thank you for that.

10:41SPEAKER_01:Well, thank you, coach. And I think, you know, the credit really belongs to Nike because long ago, earlier in my career, they ran a campaign with me entitled There Is No Finish Line. And at the time I didn't really understand that adage, but I've come to live that adage. And, you know, as long as I'm capable of running, I will run at some level. Now, I enjoy the training as much as I enjoy the racing and probably more so. But uh, you know, it's all running.

11:10SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm just really lucky. And, you know, I was able to achieve the Abbott six-star medal, and I thought when I finished that accomplishment, I would be finished. But then last year was the 40th anniversary of my fastest time, which was in Chicago, and I had the uh pleasure and honor of watching Faith Kip Yagin go after the sub-four-minute mile in Paris, and I got a breaking four wristlet that was made in Kenya, and I'm still wearing that bracelet, and I kept twirling it around last summer, and I said, geez, I wonder if I can break four in the marathon, four hours, not four minutes, obviously.

11:52SPEAKER_01:And so that was the story for that race. You know, when you said those women were excited to run with me, you know, I was excited to watch and meet and try to run with faith on a training run. So we, it's a two-way road. Our sport provides a two-way road for everybody. Everybody has an inspiring story to share with somebody else. And I get as much inspiration from the young runners coming up through the ranks as the people my age, or a few of them are still a little bit older, um, get from me still being out there.

12:24SPEAKER_01:So um, that's what's so great about our sport. It's so inclusive. And anybody who can put one foot in front of the other can get out there and do whatever they want to do and call it running.

12:34SPEAKER_00:Well, I love the fact, and I don't even know if you realized you did it, but most people would have used the word goal instead of story when you said, well, that was the story of that race, that that idea of trying to maybe break four hours in the marathon. Most people would have said, you know, I went to Paris as a faith and I thought, hey, maybe I'll set a goal. You said the story of the race. What why did you do that? Because I love the fact that you use the word story instead of goal.

12:59SPEAKER_01:I don't know. Storytelling is sort of a lost art. You know, with technology and now with AI, I think it's important to keep those stories alive and vivid in people's memories and minds. And storytelling is an art, and I'm not an artist. You know, I go out for a run and it disappears. I plant a garden and fall and winter come and it disappears. And but there's always new growth. You know, there are always volunteers in the spring. And uh that's that's really an important lesson for me to see the volunteers and to see that I can voluntarily go out and run and share my stories with other people.

13:35SPEAKER_01:Um, because everybody has a story to tell. Everybody's not going to have the same goal. Um, we can have goals. The important thing with goal setting is not to compromise those goals. You can set long-term goals and short-term goals, but once you start to compromise those goals, which I would probably do, you know, as I age up, so storytelling is a lot easier than goal setting for me.

13:57SPEAKER_00:I would disagree with the fact that you're not an artist because I would say that there is artistry and movement. And I would say that the way that you run, the way that you race is is storytelling. And I think there is a lot of art in that. I mean, we can go to certain races. I mean, it depends on how long this takes, but at the end, if we want to break down a few races and I can tell you how that's beautiful art, we can do that. But uh, you know, you also mentioned something which I think is really interesting as well.

14:25SPEAKER_00:You mentioned don't compromise the goals, but could maybe you could talk a little bit about the setting of goals because I think part of the process is some runners may believe and I think incorrectly, I'm not good enough to set a real goal. And I think you would probably disagree with that. And goals are maybe one of the most exciting, fun, and scary, scary in a good way, things about this sport. Why do you think goal setting is essential for any runner, regardless of whether there's someone running their 20th marathon or they're about to run their second run?

15:01SPEAKER_01:Because in your mind you're chasing something, and when you're in a race, you're chasing people. You can't say, Oh, I'm not feeling great, so I'm going to slow my pace. If you're really going after a goal, you have to be true to yourself, you have to be honest with yourself. And when you set those goals, you have to keep them out there, and you may not achieve those goals, but there's going to be another opportunity for you to achieve that goal. So rather than give in, keep chasing, keep looking at the runners ahead of you, you know, that's what I always do.

15:37SPEAKER_01:You know, I'm from Maine, I live in Maine, on the water, near the water. And it's like fishing. You cast, you cast your line and you hope. And when you start at the starting line, you're casting a line and you're going after it. And, you know, I tell people all the time, mentally, it's easier to pass people at the end of the race than it is to be passed. So know yourself well enough to know what uh suitable and a sustainable pace is for you in order to achieve that goal you've set.

16:12SPEAKER_01:Um and, you know, if you improve upon the goal you set, that's awesome. If you fall short of that goal, at least you tried, and at least you know you're gonna try again.

16:23SPEAKER_00:You know, I think it's really important, especially uh I think one of the one of the first things you mentioned in in your response was the fact that you might not achieve your goal. And I think what a lot of new runners hesitate to do is maybe set a goal big enough that as you put it, it's out there and also potentially not going to be achieved. So I I I think it's important that you mention that, but how do you walk that line, or I should say maybe run that line, between setting a goal that at the time of you know, the commitment to it, it's unachievable, but there's the possibility of success.

17:02SPEAKER_00:So I think it's important that, you know, a goal is good enough that there's no guarantee for success, but you also don't want to set a goal that's unreachable and only has a guarantee of failure. How do you marry that, making a goal big and scary enough, but also there's the potential to achieve it?

17:19SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's a really fine, fine line. Two examples. In 2008, when I ran in the Olympic trials in Boston, the story was I'm going to try to run a sub-250 at the age of 50. That was a really scary goal for me. And because the Olympic trials were in Boston, and because I started my career with the Boston Marathon in 1979, I thought, what a place to go out. And that's why it was going to be my last marathon. But I didn't, I really was struggling with a calf injury, and I I actually ran the race in pegs and not in racing shoes.

17:57SPEAKER_01:And that's um another story that we can share offline sometime about the peg shop. But and by the way, that was one of my most memorable runs running up to the president's house. But uh, you know, and I have a handful of memorable runs, so you're included in one of my most memorable runs. But that was a scary goal for me. I didn't know if I could achieve the other scary goal for me, or part of me, is I've never in my entire life dropped out of a race.

18:23SPEAKER_01:Never, ever, ever. So in 2025, last fall in October, I really didn't know if I could cover 26.2 miles. I really didn't know because I hadn't run over 15 miles. And and um I didn't want to drop out. So the goal that I set for myself was really, really scary. So I had to find a pace. And sometimes my knee catches and I just can't move beyond it without taking a considerable time off and massaging it and getting it going again. And sometimes it works, and other times I limp home.

19:00SPEAKER_01:So don't be afraid to set goals. And that's why I prefer storytelling. I mean, if I had dropped out of Chicago, it was there'd still be a story. I never dropped out of a race until I was 68 years old, you know? And, you know, I started my career when I was younger than 18. So that's a long span. And that race may come, and it'll be a scary moment when I say, can I run this race and finish this race? But we need scary moments in our lives.

19:26SPEAKER_00:You know, to keep us honest. I promise you, I was just about to ask, how important is it to invite those butterflies and those scary moments into your life? And I think one, I hope everyone who's listening realizes that part of your message is don't be afraid to be afraid. How, how much do you think that is a motivating factor for you with running, knowing that this is something that you're kind of inviting into your life? A little bit of, you know, can I handle this?

19:53SPEAKER_00:Can I be challenged? Can I can I allow myself to be afraid? And there's the possibility this isn't going to work out. How important is it that that's a part of your life? Because I think it's a reminder that you're alive.

20:05SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think it's a great reminder, a very great reminder. And somehow I believe that serotonin's always going to rescue me. You know, what can I say? I mean, I have put myself out there so many times on a wing and a prayer, literally. And we could get into that story, you know, believing in yourself and wanting to see, wanting to test yourself. And it's nothing freakish. I mean, it's it's doable, but it's it's a push and it's a scary push. So be scared.

20:37SPEAKER_01:That's a good thing. It's talk, you know, you talk about the nervousness. You need a little bit of nervousness, and butterflies are free, right?

20:45SPEAKER_00:I think they're a a nice reminder that you're doing something that you should be proud of. I think that's what I miss most when there are periods when I'm not racing of then being nervous. It's you you in the moment it might be overwhelming, but you're also pretty courageous to invite that into your life. If you imagine a life without it, it seems almost all just muted from color. So if you can if if you had to pick maybe the top two or three times you were most nervous on a starting line, what what would it be?

21:18SPEAKER_00:Just right off the top of your head. Are there there are a couple that pop out?

21:21SPEAKER_01:The Olympic trials in 1984, just after the arthroscopic knee surgery.

21:27SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, could you maybe go into a little detail about what was going on in the weeks preceding the Olympic trials to kind of give some context to where those butterflies came from?

21:36SPEAKER_01:So I was on a training run on uh St. Patrick's Day, March 17th in 1984. And I was nearing the end of a long run at the top of a hill called Meeting House Hill. I felt something literally unravel on the on the lateral side of my knee. And I knew I was I, you know, runners know themselves well enough to know. When something's awry, you know, and I knew uh this isn't it's like driving over something and going, uh-oh, clunk, and the tire goes flat. You know, but you know, I knew I was flat.

22:13SPEAKER_01:I knew I was hurt, I knew something was awry. And um, so I had taken a leave of absence from coaching at Boston University, and I called the head physician down there and said, Something's something's wrong. And he said, Well, get in the shower and and drive down, which is a two-hour and a half two-hour drive from where I was living with my parents at the time. He gave me a s uh injection of cortisone and said, Well, I think this might help you. And I swore off cortisone.

22:40SPEAKER_01:I, you know, I'm very holistic and I don't I don't like meds, and I don't anyway. So I he was very paternalistic, so I believed him, I trusted him. And, you know, I got a couple of days out of it, and then it happened again. And then I uh I was going out to a parents in the Southwest, and I was running for Athletics West at the time, the Nike subsidize uh team, and so in my head, I needed to get up to Eugene to be at home base with the team and with a great massage therapist, Rich Fay, and then one of the greatest athletic surgeons, the late great Stan James, and Bob Seveny, who was coaching me at the time, and I just felt like I was going to be at my second home.

23:29SPEAKER_01:And in order to heal and in order to train well, you have to feel at home in your environment and with the people who surround you. And Eugene was my home away from home. So I spent a lot of unexpected time out there after the arthroscopic surgery. And I had told Dr. James Stan, I said, look, if you get in there and it's more than what we bargained for, just fix it. Don't wake me up and say, you've got a major problem. We have to go in and do major surgery.

23:59SPEAKER_01:I just, because I'd also qualified for the 3,000 meter uh trials, which was an Olympic event at that time, before they did away with the three and added the five and the 10. And he said, okay. So I woke up and I thought, well, if I can recover quickly enough, and I can't make it to the marathon, maybe I can make it to the three trials. And uh I woke up in a hospital room and it was supposed to be ambulatory surgery, day surgery. And he walked in a few, uh, Stan walked in a few minutes later and said, Are you surprised to be here?

24:30SPEAKER_01:And I said, Yes, I guess it's not gonna happen. He said, Well, not exactly, but your reputation has preceded you, and I knew if I discharged you, you'd go out and test it this afternoon. And he knew me obviously well. I didn't know him that well. I just knew he was great at what he did. He was an artist with his surgery, right? Artistry. Um, so uh I stayed off it for 48 hours and then I went and tested it, and it worked, but I was very guarded with it because I didn't trust it.

24:59SPEAKER_01:And then long story short, I wound up pulling the opposing hamstring because I was favoring it so much. But I did a 17-mile run on Thursday before the marathon trials, which is stupid. But I wanted to see if I could go 17 miles, and if I could go 17 miles, then I knew I could cover the 26.2. And I ran with um Lisa Martin, the Australian, who had just graduated from the University of Oregon and had qualified for the Australian Olympic team. And she got me through it on pre trails, and then I said to Sev, we're going.

25:34SPEAKER_01:And again, I didn't know if I could cover the distance, but greater power took over, and I just I just believed nobody was training any harder than I was at the time, and I didn't want to let go of that, and I did not want to let that go. And if somebody had come on me toward the end of the race, if one person had come, they all would have come. I had absolutely nothing left in the tank. So that was a scary, scary moment. And then again in Chicago, just you know, this past fall, and I really didn't know if I could go the distance, but I didn't want to tell the story of dropping out of my, I wasn't ready to tell the first story of dropping out of my race.

26:14SPEAKER_01:So I sort of put goals, but I at my age now, I prefer to tell them stories.

26:22SPEAKER_00:You know, I gotta ask about that 17 miler real quick because it it it um it if I finesse it enough, it kind of makes sense into the next question that I was going to ask, which is yes, from a physical or coaching perspective, running 17 miles that close to the marathon was probably not a bright idea, but you obviously did it because you needed the confidence from that 17 miler. So when it comes to training, how how rigid are you with, let's say, the training plan?

26:53SPEAKER_00:And how much flexibility do you have when you realize this may not be exactly what the training plan is asking me to do, or maybe it's the opposite, but I need it to fill some of that emotional space or the mindset or mental space, or just I need a little pixie dust and I'm gonna have to alter the training plan. How flexible are you with the training over the course of a 14 or 18 week buildup to a race?

27:21SPEAKER_01:Well, a couple things. I'm pretty rigid. When I set my mind, and you know, it used to be a whole week out, I sort of knew what the whole week looked like. And more recently, it's more a question: am I gonna run today or am I gonna bike today or am I gonna ski today, depending on the season? And I usually try to stick to that, but you know, if it's gonna be a pouring down rainy day and I can't really ride my bike, then I'll switch it up, that sort of thing.

27:51SPEAKER_01:Um, but the other thing I'll caution people about is if you have a workout scheduled, and in this case for me, it was a track workout, and I never really ran more than, you know, once I graduated from college. And mind you, back then, until 1978, that cross-country running and track was recognized as a varsity sport at colleges and universities. And my college, Bowden College, didn't even have a woman's cross-country team. And I took a uh invitation to go to NC State on one of the first Title IX scholarships when women's varsity sports was under the auspices of the AIAW Association and not the NCAA.

28:36SPEAKER_01:So it was a precursor to the so I go way back. That's how old I am. And um, you know, I really after I left college, I I only did one track workout a week. And so I got really worked up for that workout. I mean, and you talk about that in your book. And um uh but one day I was not feeling great, and it was a pretty impressive workout, and I tried to do it, and I fell real short. And that was a big I learned a lot from that. I was not ready, I should have switched, switched to another day when I was feeling better because mentally that killed me.

29:13SPEAKER_01:And I think my biggest um gift as a as a endurance athlete is my mind, and that killed my mind, that killed my head for the upcoming race. And I didn't run well. So, you know, sometimes your worst performances can be your best teachers. So, you know, don't dwell on them, but remember them.

29:34SPEAKER_00:Well, uh let's stay right here for a second because I think that's a really valuable lesson, and it's really great to hear from someone like you that's experienced as much success as they have consistently. And a lot of times people think consistency comes from constantly or rigidity, and uh I want to talk about that because uh runners building up to the half marathon or the 10K, that's a lot of runs. And sometimes in the run, like you mentioned, y things aren't firing the way they should.

30:07SPEAKER_00:You know, maybe it was you hadn't gotten great sleep for the last couple of days, maybe it was stress from work or reading the newspaper, who knows if people still read the newspapers. But the point is, how important is it to be listening to your body and have the confidence to adjust within a run? So not just I'm not gonna run today. Like you're 15 minutes into a 45-minute run and you realize you're way more fatigued than you thought. How important is it for that athlete to listen to themselves and adjust?

30:38SPEAKER_01:It took me a long time to learn to do that, but it's very important. It's very important. You can really wear yourself down to the point that you go into a hole for not just a few days, but for a long period of time. So I think, and we haven't talked about cross-training, but I think cross-training is really important, especially as you age. Because some days now I just feel like I don't have it in my legs to go out and pound the pavement or in my knee.

31:07SPEAKER_01:So the bike is a lot easier for me. And, you know, it's I can get my heart rate up faster and higher on a bike than I can running these days. So it's sort of a blessing in disguise to have that feeling and say, this is not the day to go after a run. This is the day to do something else, which I also enjoy. I mean, I love cycling, and you know, I'm out of the saddle more than I'm in the saddle, but that's my running background. But it's just much easier on my knees.

31:33SPEAKER_01:And I think that's helped with the longevity of my career. I think people need to understand that balance is hugely important and you have to listen to your body because your body doesn't lie, and your heart doesn't lie either. So if you're listening to your body and you're, you know, I've always told our children growing up, and now I'm telling grandchildren, if you're concerned about doing something bad, listen to your heart, and your heart will tell you not to what's right.

31:59SPEAKER_01:I mean, I I truly believe that. And your body can send you the same messages.

32:04SPEAKER_00:What about advice for all runners, not just new runners, that sometimes it's supposed to be hard. Sometimes it's supposed to be difficult, and that doesn't mean you're not doing it right. It doesn't mean that you're not good. It means in many cases, like you mentioned, a hard workout or a long run, it means you're doing it the right way. So what how do you balance that? That sometimes you need to listen and say, this isn't the day to do it. And other days you may be questioning, why is this so hard when the purpose of the workout is to push you that hard?

32:36SPEAKER_00:How do you balance those things when they seem to be competing against each other?

32:41SPEAKER_01:Well, I think there's a difference between a workout feeling hard and feeling flat. When a workout's hard and you're not overtrained or sick, then that's a great thing. It's those hard and those are the workouts I didn't let go of going into the Olympic trials that we just talked about. I couldn't let go of those. They were hard workouts. But I felt rejuvenated, if you will, after I completed the workout and hydrated and ate something. But feeling flat is just you just don't have it.

33:16SPEAKER_01:You just don't have, and maybe that's a result of overtraining, and that's listening to your body, right? And saying, nope, time for a break. Time for a break. Trying to either take the day off or do something different, swim, ride, go for a hike, go birdwalk, do whatever you want to do, go into the garden. I mean, I'm very holistic with my training and my life. I've never lifted weights per se, but I do a lot of guard everybody thinks I lift because I have a lot of upper arm definition.

33:47SPEAKER_01:But it's just living my life and finding that balance and doing what I want to do when I want to do it. And I'm a procrastinator, and oftentimes I paint myself into a corner with my training time. So I have to run fast in order to fit it in. And that's my speed work. So make it a game, make it fun. You talk about this in your book. And, you know, I related to it. I I really did. So you make some good points. You do go to the dictionary a lot, but um, I'll I'll give you a pass on that.

34:17SPEAKER_00:Dictionary is a lot of fun. It's a good assistant coach. And I'll tell you what, it's funny. I was on a run yesterday with my wife, and uh at one point I said, you know, we're running really hard. And she says, I just want this run to be over. And I said, But we're running for minutes. It doesn't matter how fast we run. We're if we're running for minutes, it's gonna take the same amount of time no matter how fast you run. But I I want to ask you actually, if I removed running from what you were saying, it does, it translates to life.

34:46SPEAKER_00:And I'm wondering how much have those lessons that you've learned out on the pavement, on the trail, on the tracks, have translated into life? Because what you were saying right there was so powerful for just people's day-to-day living that if you need the break, take the break and don't run yourself into a hole. Pay attention to how you're feeling, listen to your heart. All of these things, if someone jumped in and only listened to that segment, they wouldn't know that we were talking about running.

35:17SPEAKER_00:And I'm wondering, has has running really kind of bled into how you live your life and manage your life and go after goals and challenges and deal with setbacks?

35:26SPEAKER_01:You know, I think my life has taught me about my running rather than my running teaching me about my life. And I think that's why, again, I've had the longevity that I've had. And, you know, the sun rises and the sun sets. The tides rise and the tides fall. And when you live on tidal frontage and you live in an area which sees drastic changes in daylight hours, you do the best you can with those natural phenomons. The two are very much intertwined, you know, very much because I'm always racing to have a full day.

35:59SPEAKER_01:There are very few idle moments in my day. For me to sit for an hour or so with you is it's a gift. It's it's a rest point. And, you know, you walk into our house and we have this nice window seat, and people who come in for the first time say, You must just sit in there and read, like Coach Bennett. And uh, I say, I've probably sat in that window seat five or six times in my entire life. And have I ever put my foot up and taken a book into my hands there?

36:27SPEAKER_01:No, because there's too much to do inside and outside. And it makes me a complete person and it gives me a wonderful perspective on life, and it's given me longevity that that I never thought I would have. I mean, it's it's I've been gifted. I've been given a gift of life, and I live it to the fullest.

36:49SPEAKER_00:Well, you run your runs to the fullest, too. I remember we were in Mexico City, and I was fully aware that we were at 7,000 feet. It didn't seem like it was bothering you at all. And I remember we were running around a park and there were a few people, luckily, that asked for pictures. And I could tell you just you wanted to keep it.

37:09SPEAKER_01:They wanted your picture, coach. They didn't want mine.

37:11SPEAKER_00:They wanted our picture. You were gracious enough to stop. And I remember thinking, like, if you guys want to take like two or three more, because I was hurting, and I just I could sense this vitality in you that you were you were ready. We did the picture, let's go for a run. So if you're listening, those people that stopped us a couple times in the park, you saved me because I was falling apart. So just want to appreciate that. And if you do see us running together, I am open to stopping and taking pictures.

37:40SPEAKER_00:I don't know if Joni wants to stop, but I definitely need to stop. So thank you. So I I want you to visualize now you're at an after-dark tour event in 2026. You're looking around. This could be the day before at the expo, it could be the morning of if you're seeing thousands of these athletes make their way to the starting line. It could be in the midst of one of the races, it could be afterwards, the hugging and the high fives. When you look back to those first races that you went to, those first training runs that you went on alone around your hometown.

38:17SPEAKER_00:We've had talks about this where you were the only one running. I I just want to know had do you ever take a moment to think about just how far the sport has come? Obviously, it's got so much more to go, but also your impact on where your starting line was when you were a young girl to the starting line that some of these athletes are taking today. Just how much of an impact you've had on this progress. Like, do you does it ever does it ever hit you during these moments?

38:51SPEAKER_01:Not really, because there were people who preceded me in the sport who opened doors and opportunities for me. And I wouldn't be here talking to you if the IOC didn't accept the women's marathon as an event. I mean, I really, to be honest with you, didn't know too much about the woman who preceded me in my in my in my sport, I'll call it my sport running, because I was so into other sports and I did other sports, and it was a broken leg I suffered ski racing that, you know, put me into the position of playing running, not doing running, but playing running, right, coach?

39:34SPEAKER_01:Um, you know, I I'm grateful for those women who preceded me and opened those doors and ushered me in, but I'm also very appreciative and grateful for the women who have followed me because they keep me in the game. I mean, I do wonder, you know, if I was new to the sport today like I was 40 plus years ago, how I would have reacted to all the technology in sport as opposed to machines. But um yeah, but I have no regrets, right? You know, I did what I could with what I had, and I had wonderful family, wonderful friends, wonderful, a wonderful company in Nike.

40:19SPEAKER_01:And, you know, we talk about family, we talk about community. These are my communities, and most of my friends are non-runners because they help to keep me balanced. They live active lives, but they're not runners, and they keep me balanced and busy and not thinking running, running, running all the time. And when I went to NC State on that first night of Title IX scholarship, I did not run as well as I could have run. I know that in my heart that I could have been a much better runner.

40:50SPEAKER_01:And I think that's because I lived, slept, and played running all the time. And there was no diversity in my life. You know, when I was originally asked to ask to uh join the Athletics West team, I said to Dick Brown, I'm honored. I'd love to join the team, but do I have to move to Eugene? And Eugene turned out being my lifesaver before the trials, but I think you can only have success and feel good about yourself if you feel good about the environment you're training in and the people who surround you or you have surround yourself.

41:28SPEAKER_01:And uh there's so many little vignettes to my longevity that have given me this gift and this grace and this opportunity to play running to this day. And, you know, I'll know when it's time, I think, to start playing pickleball or something like that. But, you know, I've got a forward lean. I'm I'm aging up. There's no question about it. But does it still give me joy? Yes. Do I go out on for a bike ride and see a runner go by or I go by a runner and wish I was out running?

42:03SPEAKER_01:And then will I be running and see a cyclist go by and say I wish I was cycling? I think that's a great quality to have. I mean, I'm so blessed. I mean, I've I can almost do anything I want to do, but I'm not ready to play pickleball because I know I'll screw myself up big time with that game.

42:20SPEAKER_00:You've got time.

42:22SPEAKER_01:Tennis, yes, but pickleball now.

42:24SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. Well, and I knew you'd be entirely too gracious to say that you look around at some of these events and understand your place in the big picture uh with this sport and beyond. But I'll tell you, you mentioned, you know, without the sport, you wouldn't be here with me doing this podcast right now. But without you, I wouldn't be doing this podcast with you because again, you know, you mentioned the book. There's an entire chapter dedicated to you in the book because that was my real starting line in this sport.

42:57SPEAKER_00:It was watching you. And I walked away and I didn't realize it at the time, but that was that was it. I saw in you everything I loved about the sport. And I hope you know that at all of these events, when I see people, I see what you've done at every single starting line. You are entirely too gracious to see it. I see what you've done. And this sport is not where it is right now without you. You are one of the most significant reasons why so many people across the entire world find their way to starting lines and try their best.

43:35SPEAKER_00:So I'm telling you next time, just take a moment and think about what I said because you won't think it. But I'm planting a seed so you can just realize just how impactful you've been to everyone that goes for a run.

43:48SPEAKER_01:Well, thank you, coach, and I'll t still maintain that it's a two way road out there. It really is. So it people just need to know that they all have storytelling capabilities and that they all have stories to sh to share. And I think that's why you see the numbers in our sport continue to grow because people get even more inspired when they're out running a race or a marathon and they hear the stories of the runners who are running with them at different times during the race.

44:16SPEAKER_01:And there's always a little nugget that you grasp when you're out there. And that can be very motivating for different reasons for different people. And uh I just want to know if it's your pace or mine in one of the after dark events. You pick the event.

44:33SPEAKER_00:I'll pick the event. It'll be my pace. Okay. So you may have to do a run afterwards, but it'll be my pace. All right, this is the final question. You ready? You're in the corral at after dark, and you have the opportunity to say just a few words to the athletes around you. What are you telling them before they cross the starting line?

44:54SPEAKER_01:But am I telling them before they cross the starting line?

44:57SPEAKER_00:Yes, we're getting.

44:58SPEAKER_01:Or after they cross the finish line.

45:00SPEAKER_00:No, this is we'll we'll do both. We'll do both. But we're on the starting line. The countdown clock has started. We're about 15 seconds away from the race beginning. What are you telling those athletes around you?

45:12SPEAKER_01:I would say have fun, run your own race, but share it with others.

45:17SPEAKER_00:All right. I love it. And now you're on the other side and you're welcoming these athletes as they cross the finish line. What are you telling them?

45:24SPEAKER_01:You did it. And you should be very happy that you crossed this finish line and there's another starting line out there.

45:32SPEAKER_00:I love it. Well, I'll just tell you thank you so much for being on here. I'm going to just say it's crazy that this is coming out on the same day as the book coming out, which makes it infinitely more special and meaningful to me. So thank you for being on here. Thank you for being a part of this sport. And I can't wait to see you at a whole bunch of starting lines over the next couple of months.

45:55SPEAKER_01:Thank you. I'm honored to do this talk with you. I don't want to call it an interview, but this podcast. And um, congratulations on the book. Um, people who read it will really enjoy it and they'll discover that you write just like you talk.

46:09SPEAKER_00:I don't know. We'll see if that's a good thing or not.

46:11SPEAKER_01:Oh, it's so true. It's like I said to our daughter who coach knows, I said, Abby, he talks just like he writes. Which I think is a really good thing. It's it's I don't think everybody can do that.

46:24SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, that was that was one of the uh one of the things that I wanted to make sure the editor knew. I said, This is this is going to sound just like these conversations we've been having uh sound. So um she was okay with it. So I hope everyone else is too. But thank you so much for everything you do. Thank you for being on here. And we will see you, Joni, on another starting line.

46:46SPEAKER_01:Well, coach, remember to safe uh pace yourself through the book tour.

46:50SPEAKER_00:I will, always. Thanks, Joni.

46:53SPEAKER_01:Thank you.

46:59SPEAKER_02:I hope you enjoyed this week's conversation, friends. Now, let's go ahead and check Coach B's voicemail.

47:05SPEAKER_03:Hey, Coach Bennett. First, I just wanted to say that I love the podcast and thank you so much for doing it. Uh, I listen to it all the time on my run, so it's really awesome. As far as my question for you, uh, so I've been a runner for 11 years, and I feel like after my third marathon in 2024, it's just sort of running as sort of just like lost its spark. Um, and I've been like pretty much burnt out since then. So my question is how do you bring the spark back and the fun back into running after being burnt out for so long?

47:45SPEAKER_03:Hope to hear it on your podcast. And thanks so much. Bye.

47:49SPEAKER_00:Okay, Allison, thank you because that's a great question. And it is a question that comes up a lot. So, first, I just want you to know you are not alone. In fact, you're the opposite of alone, because this is a very, very common thing that happens with runners. In fact, Coach Bennett the Greater, my wife Tammy, she actually tells athletes to pencil in, like in the calendar after a race, like some blues, like where you do feel a little bit lost, where you do feel a little bit burnt out, which I think is a great idea because a lot of times post-race, when that happens, those kind of post-race blues, we start to wonder like, what's wrong?

48:27SPEAKER_00:And there's nothing wrong. It's just that, you know, you just dedicated a significant part of your life to chasing after a goal, to running after a goal, actually. And now that goal is completed. It's done, it's behind you. And you can kind of feel lost because it leaves a hole. So there's a couple things. One is don't worry about getting burnout. It happens. Okay. The worst thing you can do is kind of pile on it and think that there's something wrong.

48:53SPEAKER_00:There's nothing wrong. Next, don't assume that you have to feel the same thing again for what's next. A lot of time athletes think like, well, now I should sign up for another marathon or another race and I should do what I just did. Well, maybe you don't want to do what you just did. So I would recommend being open to kind of having an open mind about what's next. And I know this is homework and people don't like homework, but I'm going to give you homework.

49:24SPEAKER_00:I'm an old teacher, so too bad. You got to deal with it. I would write down all the things you love about running that you get out of running, and numbers are not allowed to be included, which means you can't talk about the joy of finishing 26.2 miles or 21.1K or setting a personal best or going further than you've ever gone before. No, I want to hear about it makes you feel alive, or it's an excuse to get together with your friends, or it's a chance to be alone, or it builds confidence.

49:53SPEAKER_00:I I want to hear about those things because you can go out and achieve those things, and you don't have to be training for anything. So just flip the script a little bit. Don't think that you need to be running to race. Just run because it makes you a better version of yourself. So do some homework, figure out what you love about running and what running makes you love about yourself. And I think you'll find the spark. Different cities, different paces, one shared run.

50:26SPEAKER_00:Thanks for being here. We'll see you after dark.