Wine About Design

Ro Rich: Hello, darling.

Allie Miller: Hello, darling, I'm Allie.

Ro Rich: I'm Robin and welcome to Design Darlings, the podcast where we obsess over what makes, breaks, or bakes a good design in the world. We are so excited because we have a guest. He's joining us and he's amazing, which means we're skipping the news desk. That's right. If you need to know what's happening, go search the internet all by yourself. I'm sure you can do it. So, ba-da-ba-da-ba.

Allie Miller: We have a guest!

Ro Rich: We have with us Matthew Stebun. He is both a designer and a sommelier. He is magical. I know! He holds a master's from Georgetown and his wine certifications are from W set He's a level 3 and soon to be an official Italian wine scholar. So please suddenly Yes, you've got a scholar here folks Pour yourself a glass of your favorite French vintage or your trader Joe's glue glue. It's all good to us we're gonna cover a lot of things today. What are we gonna cover girl everything from the label to the region to what's inside? So let's get cozy and get into wine

Matthew: I like that. Those are fun because it's like a hook. It's like the lead and you're like, ⁓ this is going to be one hell of an episode. that's cute. I love it. Okay. Wine stuff. What do we want to talk about? ⁓

Allie Miller: Ha ha ha! Yeah

Ro Rich: jump off.

Allie Miller: Yeah, welcome Matthew.

Ro Rich: I want us to revisit the graphic design leaning of the label little bit more into the idea of ⁓ label as communicating from a design aspect, like Vovklico.

Matthew: Hello, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be on Talking Design and Wine, truly my two favorite things in the entire world.

Ro Rich: Yes. Hello darling. Yes. So tell us, how did you get into wine?

Matthew: Mmm, yes. So it was mainly during COVID when we were all drinking at home. and I was often drinking just like Kirkland Malbec was like my go-to and I would just buy it by the case. ⁓ But then I realized that ⁓ have always maps ⁓ and ⁓ and when it kind of boils down to it is just like where grapes are grown ⁓ and lot of wine and wine studying is just geography like climate, altitude, all sorts of geography and it's a lot of culture of like different

Ro Rich: You not only did she have star on her label, but she also did that iconic golden yellow And so ⁓ it was introduced in the early 19th century and it's essentially unchanged for 200 years and girl, that's more than tradition. That is genius.

Allie Miller: Mm.

Ro Rich: I'll leave. Thank

Matthew: wine making cultures. So during COVID I would just I started just reading a lot of wine books ⁓ read the wine Bible, which is a 1,000 page book just going start to finish ⁓ what I would do was I would read about like a wine region like Greece and then I would go and find a bunch of Greek wines and I would drink them at home ⁓ slowly but surely I kept just getting more and more and more into it because you Wine kind of like Pokemon cards once

Ro Rich: when you look at something, how is it out at you and shouting at you, giving you personality? How is it standing out without being tacky and giving us a signal for an appropriate occasion?

Matthew: you unlock like one piece you're like wait what yeah like a new grape a new region a new style you're like what ⁓ I kept going and going and then a few years ago I was like my tastes do not match with my income level so I need a part-time job

Ro Rich: Hahaha

Allie Miller: Catch them all.

Matthew: And my partner was like, you have to go talk to someone else about this and not to me all the time. So I started working part time as a sommelier. it's really exciting. And it's also one of those things I try and tell people. I did not grow up drinking like ⁓ crew, and really fancy wine. ⁓ I always it was an idea in the back of my head. even in college, I was like, one of these days I'll understand the difference between Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot. One of these days. And then finally, once I just I was able to unlock all of those pieces it was super fun and it's a lot more approachable than I would ever think.

Allie Miller: Yeah. when you told people you were kind of getting into this, were people like, huh? Or were people like, ⁓ makes sense. This feels like a natural progression for you.

Matthew: definitely do think I like the finer things in life ⁓ and I like to be a cultured human. So I ⁓ really Frasier, the TV show Frasier, ⁓ and I think it's hilarious. I think...

Ro Rich: Pontificate, where do you want to start?

Allie Miller: Your wine at every point is Frasier.

Matthew: No, I truly was drinking like Kirkland Malbec watching Frasier being one of these days I'm gonna understand what sherry is. my grew up drinking wine They they were they're a big Chianti family. my mom's side is mainly Italian so and I also grew up drinking wine at the table with family and friends ⁓ and It's really nice as a smallie. Sometimes I'll drink wines and I'm like, ⁓ this is a wine that my dad would like This is a wine. That's smooth. This is a crowd pleaser of wine you reminded me there is a wine that's really interesting that I've I've poured before and it's Craven ⁓ it's a it's a winery out in South Africa and their wine have texture to them. Like it's almost like a sandpaper. And I think it's. regarding the people who designed it for them, it was supposed to reflect the expressive, wine making style the texture of the wine. ⁓ But also is, we've talked about it as sommeliers, it's nice to pour because ⁓ since it some texture to it, ⁓ you can the bottle better. So those are physical things. I think the design of wine labels is just so crazy because it's they've done and we've talked so much about everything that goes in. And it's like in the back of my head there's wines where you're like this is weird and funky and my sommelier friends will love this But there's also wines that I'm like, ⁓ I'm gonna bring this home to my parents and they're gonna love it It's just easy drinking and good classic wine ⁓ it's been interesting to go home and visit them as I like Grow as a sommelier because my knowledge is very much outpacing theirs ⁓ But really fun to work with them and talk through okay, what are we drinking?

Ro Rich: Hmm.

Matthew: into the winemaking. And then at the end of the day, they have to put it in a bottle. And then what does that bottle look like? Is it a screw cap? Or is it a cork enclosure? and then they have to design something to encapsulate the ethos and the pathos of our winemaking and our in one label. And for me, it really is can we judge a book by its cover? if you walk a bookstore and you're walking

Ro Rich: Mm-hmm.

Matthew: we're having ham for dinner for Easter. Why are we drinking a Riesling with it? all these really weird things, so it's been really fun to kind of grow with them ⁓ and what they like.

Ro Rich: I totally identify with that. my dad would like this or like my dad would hate this because my dad loves to be like Robin, how cheap is this wine? I like it if it's cheap. I'm like, no, you don't. Mm-hmm.

Matthew: around you're like ⁓ that book looks so cool you don't know the author and the author is the producer of the wine ⁓ don't know the style of the book you're like ⁓ that's probably a horror book maybe i ⁓ that's a rum a romance novel and me what i've been seeing lately is ⁓ it's two ends of the spectrum where it's wine is trying to be more conventional and fancy of being you're going to bring this to a like a like a dinner ⁓

Ro Rich: he's he's funny the way that he will pick things and then be very attached to them because of certain qualities or characteristics of it so I like to bring home a fun line to surprise him

Matthew: and it speaks of the old world style. And that's where you get the serif fonts. You see the chateau on it. blocky text, it's very clean and looks like it was designed in the 80s. And that winery may have just come out in 2005. But they're saying, oh, we're more established. Our wine is bold and sophisticated.

Ro Rich: Mm. Hmm. when you go into the store my gosh, there's much to look at. there's all these labels, there's serif fonts, there's sans serif, there's all these prices. How do I know ⁓ what I'm looking at? Like let's just start with a label because we've walked into the store and been like, ⁓ my God, look at the walls of wine. And how do I, where do I even begin? Like understanding that ⁓ it's almost like a library.

Allie Miller: Mm-hmm.

Matthew: sophisticated. And then there's the complete other end of the spectrum where I also did this. I just Googled natural wine. You just Google it and then go to Google images ⁓ you have what natural wine? We don't know. no one really has a definition, but in their mind people are ⁓ it's something funky. It's weird. It's orange wine. It's super high acid. It's from weird regions or weird grapes. But those wine labels are the ones that are neon. They're hand drawn. ⁓ Yeah, it is so- It is very intimidating and it is really chaotic. I've walked into wine stores before and been wow, I am even unmoored and what is going on and what's happening. ⁓ I think a lot of it for me ⁓ and ⁓ ⁓ one of main goals when I talk about wine and as a sommelier is to have people drink outside of the box and do the N plus one. And we don't listen to the same every single day. we don't listen to the same

Ro Rich: You

Allie Miller: Mm. Yeah.

Matthew: super esoteric. And is ⁓ really to see where wines fall along that spectrum. I think there's a lot more complexity to And I, ⁓ that's something I want to do with AI just add in the 80,000 wine labels that are out there and just be like, let's figure how these work together. And like what story. song every single day. We might like certain genres, but we're listening to different music. We don't eat the exact same meal every day. So why are we going and just getting the exact same bottle every single day? One thing, especially if we were going using Trader Joe's as an example, there's so much behind it because there are the wine label can tell you just a they're telling because I think it is super, super crazy. ⁓

Ro Rich: Yes. humans are visual creatures. ⁓ We evolved to pattern, repetition, anomaly, so that we could survive ⁓ on the Serengeti, said if you see a book, it's probably got red on the cover somewhere. So there are visual semantics that indicate to us something that we see a rom-com would be pink.

Matthew: lot of information and the design of the wine label is two things. One, it's marketing to be like, hey, this is our vibe. You know, if it's a hand drawn label, if it has cute little duck on it, you're like, okay, cool. That seems like something I'm going to bring. You're going to grab wine that you want to bring to the park with friends to drink pizza, or you're going to grab wine to bring your parents or like a fancy business dinner. And sometimes just the marketing and the vibe behind it.

Ro Rich: ⁓ and so that book is probably pink. It's got soft texture. It's got maybe some flowing cursive writing And so ⁓ it's interesting how.

Matthew: We hope. from a design perspective that that matches ⁓ when we talk wine and this entire ⁓ as we're today a lot of what we study sommeliers is style. So what's the style of wine? Is it a sweet wine? Is it a full-bodied wine? Is it a red wine, like red wine, white wine, sparkling? And then the quality. And quality is a much bigger question. And quality is objective because it is how ⁓ those grapes are processed.

Ro Rich: wine makers also play with this idea of type and color and imagery to try to convey what is in them.

Matthew: and how the wine is made. If you like a good quality wine or not, is subjective. I've had really good wine and it doesn't mean that I want to keep drinking it. I just I'm like, ⁓ I get it. ⁓ like Hermes. ⁓ understand that the Birkin is objectively good quality. It is made well. It is hand stitched. It is good leather. That's not saying that I want to wear or buy a Birkin ⁓ and for that price.

Ro Rich: Thank

Matthew: So when we go into Trader Joe's, the wine label is kind of ⁓ two things. It's the marketing behind it of saying okay, what is the style and maybe even the quality? And then ⁓ what is ⁓ legal contract that have to put on the wine label? So they have to put the alcohol level. They have to put the region where it's from. It can't just be a completely blank bottle. So once you know those two pieces of Yeah, I think people are wanting to drink more hyperlabel, they to drink weirder stuff, people want to go outside of the box often when it comes to wine, but we are also seeing trends in that younger people want, newer wine drinkers want something that is unique, so that's when we get into the orange wines or the Nassau wines. The establishment is still of like walking in being okay, what can I kind of get from the marketing aspect? And then what can I get from this legal contract aspect? It's really helpful to then know where heading and ⁓ what the of wine you're getting ⁓ and the of wine you're getting. And sometimes it matches and sometimes it doesn't. going strong. ⁓ I think Ridge is a really wine label out in California. They make amazing wine. Ridge was one of the OGs ⁓ of putting California on the map going France. And wine label is just ⁓ so classic in just you know, you know it designed in sixties and the seventies. It's very art deco, almost mid-century. ⁓ that label for me is just when you see it you're like, ⁓ I know exactly what is going on with this brand They do not want ⁓ cater to a different audience. They know who their brand is and they know that it's That's business dinner Ridge is cult business dinner wine producer really good big reds Cabin a slab. That's what we're drinking rich with ⁓ They're not trying to get ⁓ in Gen Z They just aren't not and they know where their lane is. I think it gets a little bit more peculiar when larger wine ⁓ huge ⁓ will start wines that are I just actually saw it this morning when I was at the wine store there was a a vino verde that I saw and it they literally called it patio pounder and they're like yeah and they've named the wine patio pounder and then there's another and I took another photo and it's called the dude and I can say I a text you ⁓

Ro Rich: ⁓ my gosh.

Allie Miller: Big Lebowski dude.

Matthew: It's all lowercase, kind of like a papyrus ⁓ font that says the the dude. ⁓ So literally, am not kidding you. These wines are next to each other in the wine store. And right there, you know, you're buying these things based on vibe rather than exactly what's in the bottle. You know who you're getting ⁓ the dude for and you know you're getting the patio pounder for.

Allie Miller: Pirates.

Matthew: because I saw this morning I was this is wine marketing 101 because we do have those different echelons of wine that's $20 and under that you're you know that you're going to drink within the next few days and then you have even the higher echelon like the haute couture wines that you know people are buying cases of this and sitting on it for 20 years they have it in their wine cellar versus oh i'm just going to bring this to my next hang with friends

Allie Miller: Did you ever think you'd live to see the day where Papyrus was selling wine?

Matthew: Truly, I was like, what's going on here?

Allie Miller: So I'm looking at ⁓ the dude, and patio And two things that stand out to me from a graphic design perspective is they are so simple in the information they are to wine can be very overwhelming to And I wonder, is this a correct assumption that is the simplicity of the graphic design in these labels intentional? And that is it the brand saying, acknowledge that a lot of information on the front of a label can feel overwhelming? Let's give you just an incredibly simple, straightforward. of our wine and you'll get it. You don't need to read 10 other things on the front of the label. It just is what it is.

Matthew: Yes, I think you're totally correct in that assumption. And I think it is a course correction to wine extremely bad rap for being ⁓ pretentious and and not approachable. ⁓ And It's mainly Europe and they're labeling because when you say you want a Sancerre or a Vouvray or a Condieu, these are locations. So when you see them on the label, a French wine label gives you nothing. You don't even know what the grape is. I think newer wines are trying to break down those barriers and they're a little bit more on the nose That is helping folks who are more into entry level to say okay now I understand what's going on

Ro Rich: So I guess this gets into grapes and you mentioned at the outset, what's the difference between a Cabernet and a Pinot Noir? Yes, that's grapes, but then also where it's grown. So the label should tell you what's inside.

Matthew: One qualm that I have is that ⁓ the labels also are used in this way of name dropping. So if you're into wine, you, and if you follow people who are a's or like they're drinking wine, taking a photo of the label

Ro Rich: where is it grown and then there's some little things that get thrown in there that try to help you indicate what you're about to drink because it's a secret unless you rock up at the liquor store on a Saturday and all the tasters are there and you're like woo. So when we talk about the grapes like what does it communicate about the brand and I want to talk about something that is my favorite thing which is champagne. I know you also love champagne Matthew and Vovkiko ⁓ the first champagne house to really do marketing and if

Matthew: is sometimes the biggest flex you can ever do. And I mentioned LeBron James, he does that. ⁓ wine influencers, always taking photos of labels. And they'll just name drop ⁓ yeah, I was drinking the Prévost. the Prévost. Have you had that one before? Yeah, I liked his earlier vintages. ⁓ it is this crazy level of just ⁓

Allie Miller: Mm.

Ro Rich: If you haven't read the book, please go read The Widow Clicquot. It is a fascinating, fantastic read. the grand dame of champagne. But Vogue made very differently than ⁓ like a J. Passal. And I want you to explain the difference because when I got a bottle of that, you were like, ⁓ let me tell you why this is so special. ⁓

Matthew: you have been able to drink and ⁓ where can drink it and being ⁓ I didn't DuFour's, ⁓ I didn't like that So I think the label also ⁓ where it can like bleed into it being wow, I'm going to to take a photo of this bottle ⁓ and

Ro Rich: ⁓ So help me understand the difference and unpack that for folks because ⁓ that's a great way to help us into bottle. If you will,

Matthew: And again, I love Trader Joe's wine. I drink Trader Joe's wine a lot. Though I do implore people to go visit ⁓ wine shops. Like go, not just support local wine shops, but local wine shops will get wine that Trader Joe's does not. And that's because Trader Joe's is selling at a huge conglomerate level. they're only dealing with those like big names. And Vuv Clicquot is a good example. They are what we call a negotio and negotiations are actually pretty popular ⁓ France and kind of throughout the wine world I think California is really big they have a version of negotiation and If you guys drink milk, this is a good analogy If you are used drinking milk just from like the grocery store you go and get like hood or Those come from a lot of different farmers and a lot of different cows, and then it goes to this one big packaging plant, and then they make it, and it makes sure that milk is the same. We talk about in champagne, there's something called a grower champagne, and they are like dairy farmers who milk the cows. They pasteurize the milk, and then you go and you get the fancy milk ⁓ that in glass ⁓ jar that you can like a deposit ⁓ on. And when you that milk, you're like, ⁓ I know the farmer, I know the farm, and I know the cows. Where the other one, you're wait, I don't know where that is. ⁓ So Vuv Clicquot buys their from all these different farmers, and they make the wine, they make a base wine, and how champagne is made, they make one wine, and then they add some more yeast and sugar, and then they make the second fermentation, which adds the bubbles. hold on in these huge tanks to all of this wine. and that's because they want the same house style every single year. Every time they release, you want to go and you know that you're going to get a very classic champagne style that is the Vuv Clicquot style. So, Laurent Perrier does this as well. Even, Dom Perignon will do that.

Ro Rich: I was researching this, so I'm gonna give you my notes. can confirm, deny, or correct. Does it matter what glass you drink wine with? And this is ⁓ a bit of where science meets snobbery, but I say that love because I think the answer is both, actually. So, the wine glass shape is not pretension, technically, dressed up in crystal. It is fluid dynamics and chemistry. ⁓

Matthew: Love. I implore people to go out and drink outside of the box and go and find these like smaller champagne houses where you can ⁓ up the dude like Marc Hebrard or La Frere are people who are ⁓ making the themselves. They are out there farming just very small plots of land. They make the wine and then they sell it. And you can this anywhere in the world and I think It's nice that we can

Ro Rich: doing our work. So the bowl size controls the surface area and how much is exposed to air, which affects how fast the wine opens up and releases aroma, which we did talk about in aeration. And the rim diameter is where the wine hits your tongue first, and then your tongue maps the sweetness at the tip and acidity on the sides and bitterness on the back. So that rim diameter affects how it goes into your mouth, into your sip. And then there's a chimney effect.

Matthew: buy really cheap wine we can buy wine for you know eight bucks nowadays but we of forget that ⁓ wine is made by farmers and dudes out there picking grapes and then making the wine and that will express where they grow and how they do it. So again, it's just like blueberries when you're going to the grocery store and you're buying blueberries and you're like, wait, these do not taste like blueberries versus when you're out, ⁓ you know, you drive to Pennsylvania and you go to a little farmers market, you're like, ⁓ wait, these blueberries are like the best things I've ever had. And that's because you're paying cash to the Amish farmer.

Ro Rich: where there's a narrower opening at the top, it concentrates the aromatics towards your nose before you even sip. So you're tasting with your nose first always, and the glass does shape that experience. Is that true?

Matthew: Yes, I think, yes, you're spot on. I was nodding along being like, yes, this is exactly what I'm, you are correct.

Ro Rich: Okay. Okay, but it doesn't mean you don't have to go so okay, what matters versus what's overkill. So a proper bowl, meaning it's wide enough with some volume for reds is good. A tulip shape, a narrower shape for sparkling to preserve bubbles and focus that lovely pop. And thin rims if you have over thick ones because that lip ⁓ wine transition is significant.

Matthew: who just grew them. that's where we kind of lose track. people are like, well why am I paying so much for wine? And it's ⁓ there's someone right behind that doing all that. So I think Vufcico is like a really good example. it is good wine. Objectively it's good quality. But you can find either better quality or ⁓ wines more character behind them.

Ro Rich: You do not need 14 different glasses for varietals, like a Burgundy verse Bordeaux glass for casual Tuesday wine is just silly. I want to know if you have a hot take on Riedel because those glasses, in 50s and 60s, they were designing varietal specific glasses. And it showed that actually the same wine tasted very different depending on the vessel shape and the wine world lost its mind. The family been making glass apparently since 1756, but that insight changed everything. How do you feel about those glasses? I don't know if I said it right either.

Matthew: I think, unsure on, I think it's Rydell, Rydell? Rydell. With, I always think there's two big things. ⁓ One the shape ⁓ of the itself. We call them burgundy glasses, which are the big, big ones, like bulbs. Those will be the aroma collectors. You want wines that are, they're especially Pinot Noir ⁓ or Nebbiolo open up.

Ro Rich: freeways. Okay.

Matthew: and you want them to be in this big bowl to collect aromas because they're very gentle. So that's the size of the glass. champagne... ⁓ Tulips, I would say, are a great medium between a flute and a white wine glass. If I'm drinking a champagne that's over maybe $150, I will request a white wine glass in the restaurant because I want to smell the really nice aromas looking at the cute bubbles. The bubbles are nice to watch in flute, ⁓ but just don't get the aromas. The aromas do not collect, so a tulip is a good ⁓ middle Regarding Rydell and some of the really, really fancy glasses, A, I do not have them in my home because I drink wine and then I break the glass. The I've gone out like once or twice at like very fancy restaurants. And let me tell you, drinking wine out of a glass that you think is going to shatter at any moment is the sexiest experience you've ever had.

Ro Rich: Hahaha! Is that the Zaltos or the Salto?

Matthew: Yeah, Zalto's, there was one where I was I was like, where is this from? They're like, oh, it's handmade in Switzerland. It was a Catholic wafer. It was beautiful. I, but to me, that is the drinking experience. I am unsure exactly how much it will change the, the, the aromas. I equate it to folks who are like,

Ro Rich: Yes.

Matthew: audio files, people who need the really nice speakers and they need to listen to the song on vinyl. I to most music on Spotify with my janky Bluetooth headphones. I know that audio is getting twisted and going through all these crazy things. I am sure to Adele's album on vinyl with your $800 speakers is going to be a euphoric experience.

Ro Rich: Thank you.

Matthew: But for me, the layperson in audio, I'm just not going to see it. If you really want to go and buy extremely expensive glasses, and I think Rydell was doing a great thing when they were starting with German white wine glasses, this is a Riesling glass versus a different one. I think was mainly a good amount of marketing, ⁓ but also them exploring ⁓ giving

Allie Miller: I just needed to be known in doing research for this episode. I learned that there is a Madame Claco ⁓ musical. You can listen to the soundtrack ⁓ on Spotify. It is a total of six songs, totaling 29 minutes, and it premiered in Pittsburgh in 2025. So I think at your next sommelier meeting, Matthew, I think this should be required listening for your cohort, your compadres. The opening song is about her father telling her she needs to start a revolution, and then there's an interlude with Napoleon being like, revolution! It's incredible.

Matthew: like an homage to the wine to say German Riesling we have to put on the map and it deserves its own glass. We use at the wine bar, we use one white wine glass for ⁓ everything except flutes. We'll actually we use a German white wine glass for instead of a flute. And then we will use a larger red glass. If someone gets like a really nice bottle, ⁓ we'll use an

Allie Miller: So.

Matthew: That in Pittsburgh too, truly.

Allie Miller: It premiered in Pittsburgh. It was written back in 2017.

Matthew: So I do shape is very shape is much more important I find glass. Glass I think is more ⁓ but also ⁓ the of it. you're gonna just feel sexier drinking out of it, ⁓ but I'm if ⁓ the wine will ⁓ be more ⁓ by the of glass. ⁓ The broad way of the Rust Belt, Pittsburgh.

Ro Rich: ⁓ my god.

Allie Miller: Your love of Pennsylvania. ⁓

Ro Rich: I, well, I mean, that's funny you mentioned it's the sexiest thing in the world is to drink out of a thin glass that you feel like you're about to break because your movement of that glass from the table to your mouth and back has to be so much more thoughtful than just grabbing your, your thick glass and, and swinging it down, which there's times for that too. We're not going to hate on that. Um, what about a coupe? Is there ever a time for a coupe? I know there's myths around coupe glasses being, what was it, Marie Antoinette's breast? That it was supposed to be a couple of years? But the nervous is like, no, that's a great lore, but it's not true.

Matthew: Yeah

Ro Rich: I am

Matthew: was just gifted some coupe glasses and they are, again, they lean into more of the pomp and circumstance around drinking and saying like, ⁓ I really like this. They do not collect aromas that well because you're going to the aromas just ⁓ jump of the coupe ⁓ and bubbles will, ⁓ rumor it, bubbles for champagne will dissipate slightly. I don't believe because drink champagne so quickly.

Ro Rich: Yeah.

Matthew: anyways if your champagne is going flat being in a coupe you're not drinking it quickly enough ⁓ so am ⁓ I'm pro coupe I would not ⁓ I put champagne in a coupe as a celebratory ⁓ vibe

Ro Rich: I agree.

Matthew: enforcement, ⁓ that for fun. I'm not putting any other wine because you want ⁓ to like swirl. You want to be able to swirl it, so stick to an aroma collector for that, but I am still very pro group. I don't think it it does not hurt ⁓ the

Allie Miller: Years ago I went to this bar, it's now closed, RIP. But it was like a Tuesday night and the bar was dead and so me and my friend, the bartender just... He had no one else entertained. So every drowned drink we got, he just gave us progressively weirder and more bespoke glassware. Because we were like buddies at this point, he's like, oh, now you gotta try this glassware. And the last drink we got, it was the coolest thing ever. It was a coupe. but basically it didn't have a stem, okay? And he served it, he had this like crystal tray, we got two drinks, and it had ice in the tray, and then it just, it's like imagine a coop without a stem, and he like, it was like resting in the ice to keep it chilled, so then when you drank it, you had to like pick it up. from almost like you're picking up like a donut and then like drinking that and then you, it had a little point to keep it steady in the ice. It was the coolest thing. It was just like gorgeous cut crystal. And he's like, yeah, we have this, never use it. We have like one of them in the back. And it was really, really cool. So, kind of. It was the coolest, yeah. It was the coolest glassware. Yeah. We were, we were.

Ro Rich: ⁓ my gosh, almost sounds like a caviar serving dish because you have to keep it on ice. I'm like, wait a minute. Cool. Wow.

Matthew: I would have been too drunk for that. I would have been like, how do I do this? I would have I can't do this. That's my Somali a trick is never ever wash wine glasses after drinking. You might want to leave them on the counter. And I have more luck.

Allie Miller: Thank

Matthew: washing in the dishwasher than hand washing. So trust the dishwasher sometimes with glasses. whatever you drink out of, I believe in you. ⁓

Allie Miller: Yeah. Okay, in addition to glasses, this were a BuzzFeed list and it was top 20 gadgets elevate your wine drinking experience, is there a kitschy little ⁓ object invention thing ⁓ that you're like, ⁓ these are really fun to have when you're drinking wine?

Ro Rich: Great question.

Matthew: What I love lately, gadget-wise, is I was gifted a lay-cruise. ice holder, it's an ice sleeve. So you put it in the freezer, you freeze it, and then you put it over a bottle of champagne or a bottle of wine, and then you can go to the park and it keeps it super, super cold. And I find that is one of my favorites that I've always been using. My other favorite thing I use daily is a wine key. wine keys are the waiter wine key. I don't use the ones that where you turn down and then it ⁓ swings out. This is an audio medium and I don't... Yeah, I don't think I did a good job explaining that, the other ones are you just twist it and then you pull it up. It's a lever. ⁓

Allie Miller: little arms.

Ro Rich: Yes. they call a church key.

Matthew: Yeah, it's church key, wine key, waiter's best friend because it really is. But my hack was I found it.

Ro Rich: Yeah.

Matthew: Amazon for $25 and it's from Zwilling and Zwilling is a knife company ⁓ To cut the foil it is a non serrated blade So it doesn't drag the foil at all when I tell you this is the Cleanest cuts I ever make it changed it changed my life

Ro Rich: How do you know when you should open wine and let it breathe? Because I've always heard that you get a younger wine and you open it and you let it breathe. What are the rules around that? Because that will also soften wine. Or like maybe a rule of thumb or a principle, so to speak.

Matthew: Yeah, I always go back and forth because you can get so in your head about these things. I was reading about an Italian wine that someone on some wine blog was like, you open this six hours beforehand. And my dumbass was reading this 30 minutes before dinner. ⁓

Ro Rich: Hahaha!

Allie Miller: Yes.

Matthew: I like, are you kidding me? So few rules. One of them is that we are often drinking our white wines too cold and our red wines too warm. So ⁓ this is the old wives tale, but I am into Is that you should take your white wine out the fridge 30 minutes before you want to drink it. And you should put your red wine in the fridge 30 minutes before you want to drink it. Because if it's too cold or

Ro Rich: Cool.

Matthew: to warm it you want a sweet spot for wine temperature so it can really get all of the aromatics so when you swirl it and sniff it and you want to open it. ⁓ If you want to go down a rabbit hole, Google Durand, which is ⁓ the Durand, and $200, and ⁓ it's used for when open really, really old wine. And to acquire a Durand I don't know, it's just such a big deal, but that's... ⁓ Opening I usually always say a good 30 minutes and pouring it into another vessel I have an uncle who gets so angry at me because he thought he got a really nice Like a serving like a ⁓ yeah, he thought he got a decanter. ⁓ It was not a decanter did not decant anything because there was no surface level ⁓ So I was pouring bottles wine into a Pyrex like a measuring cup and I was like frankly this will do a better job aerating the wine

Allie Miller: Canter.

Matthew: That's a big design thing. They designed it perfectly to open a bottle where the cork itself is disintegrating. So you screw it in, you put in the screw first, and then you put in another thing, or actually it's other way around. And I was never really taught, yeah, I was never taught how to use it. I just grabbed it one day and I had to open a bottle from the 1980s. It was like a 40 year old bottle.

Ro Rich: You

Matthew: Yes, exactly. you just to, oxygenation. You can watch, YouTube videos of people being I'm gonna hyper oxygenate my wine by putting it in a blender.

Allie Miller: and your $200 decanter that you got.

Ro Rich: What?

Matthew: I don't think you need to blend your Malbec. don't think that's what we're doing here, people. But I do think opening it up and swirling your wine is really, really helpful. Just to make sure those aromas are coming out. Also, sometimes with wine, especially if it's aged wine, that baby is going to be tight. you are stuck in a bottle for a while. ⁓ Like you want it to ⁓ you want little bit of like openness. I know. It's like

Ro Rich: ⁓ my God.

Matthew: And I was unwell in front of a customer. And I was like, OK, today's the day that I learn how to use a Durand.

Allie Miller: you

Ro Rich: Did it go well? Did it work out? did you have an instant mechanic attack as you did it?

Matthew: It worked. Yeah, it's. Yeah, my joke now is that if I know it's an older bottle, I'll keep a Durand in my back pocket. And if I need to use it, I can use it. But often I won't have to, because it's just there the ready. But that's a really.

Allie Miller: Yeah.

Ro Rich: Okay. Okay. It really does. it holds, it looks like it holds the cork. So it looks like you screw down into it. It has these little legs that go on either side of the neck the bottle. And then as the cork comes out, it kind of grabs it.

Matthew: flying on a plane for six hours you want to stretch a you want to make sure that you're moving and grooving before just you know jumping into a conversation or something so that's where it helps to air it out a little Yeah, and the thing on the back that holds the cork, that's called an AUSSO. A-H-S-O. So can buy an AUSSO for $10, and I have an at home in case I need to open a really old bottle. And that's how you do because it just, and then you twist it when you pull out. Again, this is an audio medium, and we've gone down a rabbit hole of designing different ways to open a bottle. ⁓

Ro Rich: Thank you.

Matthew: The only other issue, what I've seen, is that sometimes if you can't really, really old wine, it will lose all of it. So you do not want to aerate super old wine. So if you have a wine bottle, like 30 plus years. if you're drinking a 1990 Bordeaux anytime soon, it's kind of like a curve that just drops off because...

Ro Rich: ⁓ to find super old.

Allie Miller: Mmm.

Matthew: The aromatics are super precious and you don't want to disturb those. ⁓ But that's a use case. I told you, it gets very complex where you're like, am I doing this wrong? I'm unsure.

Ro Rich: That's quite neat. Stewart bought a house and she inherited the wine cellar with the house and she had a small yacom and they had apparently like 40 bottles of Bordeaux in the ⁓ cellar ⁓ the son was like, listen, you need to drink this. Like it is right at the cusp. Like you have to drink it. So she was like, we had a fabulous dinner party Isn't that amazing? Like, ⁓ my gosh, to be at that party and have a I...

Allie Miller: Bye!

Ro Rich: Okay, well we... This lovely. We covered the art, we covered the design, we covered the wine, I

Matthew: Well, as always.

Ro Rich: I'm still jealous. I love that story because I still like to imagine the idea of being there at that party to drink all of that Bordeaux. Oh my gosh.

Matthew: I want to get drunk with Martha Stewart and LeBron James a lot. Some of these basketball players, there's photos on wine Reddit and stuff being ⁓ what the ⁓ they ⁓ are they drinking crazy, crazy stuff, which is just insane. ⁓ So they are drinking what we call grade wine. And this gets into a whole different thing that I will not get on a diatribe about.

Allie Miller: their wine collections.

Ro Rich: Like what?

Matthew: It is the idea that wines, because of supply and demand, ⁓ at investment grade. So most people buy these and actually, ⁓ The Chinese market is often, usually, like new money in China, they will buy wine a commodity. ⁓ it's the same as art. know, a Banksy, someone's not hanging a Banksy in their, yeah, ⁓ they're hanging a Banksy in their living room. They are holding it in a warehouse to then sell it in 15 years for $18 million. So people will things like ⁓ Moulin Roche Childe things like La Tache. La Tache is like a very specific plot of land. ⁓ When we were talking about California, to Napa to Oakville this is Burgundy to Vos Vominee to we're talking an acre of land and the wine produced on that acre of land is usually sold gonna like just look up the price $150,000 things where we're talking bottles that ⁓ for one bottle yeah ⁓ so these ⁓

Ro Rich: No way.

Allie Miller: Mm. A bottle is what...

Ro Rich: Wow. Made on one acre of land. Shut up.

Matthew: Yeah, so we're talking investor grade stuff, but what I respect the hell out of LeBron James for is that he's opening these bottles and he doesn't give a shit. He's just like, yo, I'm gonna drink this wine. And it's really cool. Exactly. Yes.

Allie Miller: Love that. It's like people who wear their Birkins. There's like people who dress in Birkins and then there's people like Jane Birkin was like, I'm wearing my Birkin to the ground. Yeah.

Ro Rich: Yeah, it was me for her. She had that conversation on the plane and it was like, what would you make in a bag? And he sat there and drew it and then sent her that bag. And she was like, ⁓ good, this is my bag that I wanted. And it holds everything I want, yes.

Matthew: Yes.

Allie Miller: Yeah.

Matthew: Now, the crazy part is that this is more of a recent phenomenon. So I met someone out in Napa who was like, invest in wine now. He bought 10 bottles, or he bought a case, so 12 bottles of L'Itache 25 years ago, 30 years ago, and he bought it for $150 per bottle. He didn't drink them and then sold them for about $15,000 per bottle based on the vintage and things like that. So are well, we can get into investment.

Allie Miller: Mm.

Ro Rich: Wow.

Matthew: It's the same as any sort of investment, real estate investment, or you guys buying Birkins and holding them. But it's just a very interesting piece because it's almost divorced from normal wine drinking. It's the idea of, oh, I'm going to go do a... Yeah.

Allie Miller: Yeah.

Matthew: Exactly, you're gonna go to a gallery and it's like I'm not gonna buy a Banksy like no But there is this way it is influencing how people are approaching it It's unfortunate with Burgundy because it's such a small region in France and it is a supply and demand issue That it's pushing all wine the rising tides are bringing all of the wines more more expensive Which is really unfortunate because you could drink Burgundy back in the day for you know $30 a bottle and now these bottles

Allie Miller: Mm-hmm.

Matthew: bottles are on wine list for like $350, $600. it is just changing how we're approaching it. But LeBron James is drinking his you know, $2,000 to $6,000 bottles and it's lit. We love to see it.

Ro Rich: That's amazing.

Allie Miller: I love that. know, you've kind of started to hit on the culture of wine. And if I kind of want to pivot less into the micro, the wine itself and the culture around the act of drinking wine. Even when we were talking about decanters, I immediately thought of me like watching Downton Abbey in my college dorm room, but then watching Carson like decant into this gorgeous Victorian decanter and me like decanting my five buck chuck like into like a Pyrex container.

Matthew: Thank Yeah, yeah. I have to say, growth as a Somalian was me watching Frasier again and being wait, he's drinking his sherry way too warm. It's it's not possible to drink this sherry at this temperature. But yeah, it's interesting because the wine industry is really, ⁓ They are because you're going in two different directions because people are trying to see wine as this ⁓ big ⁓ symbol of saying I'm buying this fancy bottle and buying this Vodkiko. But then they're also finding that they're gatekeeping it and people just don't have the information to buy French wine anymore. a 25 year old is not understanding what Burgundy is. They just don't know what Burgundy is. They don't know.

Ro Rich: I mean.

Matthew: Bordeaux is and the other issue is that the people who do are dying and leaving their sellers to Martha Stewart

Allie Miller: Bye!

Ro Rich: Hahaha

Matthew: yeah, ⁓ rich people can only buy so much wine and Napa's having issue ⁓ an average bottle of Napa probably is what 60 bucks like to 100 US dollars and someone is not ⁓ a Gen Z and Millennials don't have the to spend on that and they aren't really buying into that experience court of Master sommeliers are of like that if you look at the court of Master sommeliers it's a bunch of it used to be a bunch of old white dudes and that isn't what wine is anymore ⁓ and it's hard because I think people lost the plot for a little bit and the ⁓ 90s and 2000s of being well wine is this fancy thing and there's so many steps to opening wines a lot decorum changed these just recently, but. you were taking the court of master sommeliers exam which has a service portion you have to pour so you pour the taste and then you go to the special honoree person so if it's someone's birthday that they're celebrating you pour that person I think last but Then you go left to right, and you go with the women first, and then you go with the men, and then you do the person who tried the wine, and then you do the, or who ordered the wine, and then the piece. So like, it is literally written, these old decorum pieces of ⁓ this is what wine is. And I think ⁓ we are and where I'm working, it's nice because we're getting, younger wine drinkers who are really interested in weird funky wine. Like orange wine is ⁓ vogue right now. It is ⁓ so The funny part about this is that this is how wine was made 8,000 years ago. Like the OG wine from the caucuses was orange wine. Yeah, it was amber wine ⁓ in Georgia the the country of Georgia and the caucuses were grapes were first cultivated they would make the wine they would put in these clay and for us and ⁓ Now it's full with the influencers being obsessed with orange wine and I think

Ro Rich: Mm.

Matthew: We as society and we as consumers want things that are more local, more hyper local lately. I think we are leaning towards that and we want to know people and that's both for fashion, for art and we want to go to local shops and find cool things that people are making and wine is really leaning in on that saying yeah, we are a husband and wife duo. We are female winemakers. people of color making wine ⁓ we are trying to battle against ⁓ that old-fashioned white dudes only pouring

Ro Rich: I have a theory about this. I'm sorry to interrupt you. think that this is post-modernism finally reaching into other parts of society because modernism was that singular voice, ⁓ It was in the ⁓ and like critics, everything changed and you get the civil rights movement, you get all of these, the women's rights movement and you get art change. So that was the first zeitgeist like domino to fall. And then I think post-modernism has slowly gone into other facets of life.

Matthew: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Ro Rich: And so it's the same with wine ⁓ like part of that secrecy or that ritual around it, people are people want to know. how do we break it down? Because it shouldn't just be in this one club, this like singular echelon. So the localism, the different folks stepping into wine making, like one, it's postmodernism, but two, it takes away that ⁓ there's no like singular genius mystique about wine. I'm going to say, please correct me. Like cab sav is a type of grape. And that means if you're drinking a cab sav, that is a grape that is in a ⁓ region. It could be grown in Napa. It can be grown in Italy. It could grown in ⁓ Argentina.

Matthew: Yes.

Ro Rich: And then you try those different cab savs to see how the terroir, the earth and the climate and everything has affected it. and you should try to see what you like because that's the art. Is that correct?

Matthew: % yes no and I think you you really yeah you like truly hit the nail on the head and I also

Ro Rich: Okay.

Allie Miller: ⁓ Gen Z snapped Robin.

Matthew: When went through a huge, almost like an industrial revolution where they could make stuff so quickly, they could make and bottle wine, once they were able to not have just horses and hand-picking grapes, they had literal tractors in France and flatter land with ⁓ irrigation, they, ⁓ it exploded

Ro Rich: Thank

Matthew: and had, and so they made Riesling. ⁓ People are like, ⁓ I don't like Riesling. I don't like sweet wine. And it's like, you were bad wine people it is I promise you go

Allie Miller: you

Ro Rich: ⁓ That was everyone's first wine. was like Riesling. It wasn't Bootwell. It Woods Farm.

Matthew: Same, same with Chardonnay. People are like, don't like Chardonnay. Listen, you, ⁓ hate to break to you, have been drinking ⁓ ⁓ Chardonnay. Chardonnay is one of those investor grade wines. If you want to look at a Pouliment Rocher being sold for $5,000 a bottle, go try that and come back to me saying, ⁓ don't like Chardonnay.

Ro Rich: Hahaha

Matthew: And Chardonnay for me is the example of like your friend who does not get any sleep, does not drink any water, smokes a pack a day, and then puts on full coverage foundation to go to the club. And you're like, girl, this full coverage foundation is not helping you. Okay? This is not it. That is the version of Chardonnay that most people are drinking. That's like ⁓ eight And that's the two buck chuck. And it's the grapes are not grown well. It just, ⁓ they don't.

Ro Rich: Mm.

Allie Miller: Thanks

Matthew: are not good grapes and what they're doing is they're covering it up with oak chips they're covering covering it up with like malolactic fermentation which kind of makes it really buttery ⁓ they go yeah if your friend got hours of sleep drank her water hit pilates in the morning was feeling good about herself

Ro Rich: And. would say the butter, right? Okay, yes. That's been a trend.

Allie Miller: 12 steps of skincare routine. Yeah.

Matthew: That is the Chardonnay that is amazing. And that is the Chardonnay that only needs like a cute lip and maybe some mascara. And it's like, damn, she's looking good. I will I am a Chardonnay apologist through and through. I really am like, this is one of the biggest pieces of wine of saying objectively, this style of wine is good. And the quality is really the issue you're running into. And it's like, go find wines that are from a very specific region.

Ro Rich: you

Matthew: ⁓ wines that are really well made and try them and try these Chardonnays that are like wow this is insanely nice.

Ro Rich: How do

Allie Miller: Alright, I want to talk about champagne sabers. What? Why do we need ⁓ a saber to open champagne?

Matthew: I just think it's so funny. I... Okay.

Ro Rich: Do we need a champagne saver to open champagne?

Allie Miller: Should we all be opening our champagne with Sabres?

Ro Rich: Yes, that's the real question. Do we all need savers to open champagne?

Matthew: No one... sabres are hilarious. You do not have to go buy a saber on Amazon, despite Robin buying me a saber on Amazon. ⁓

Ro Rich: I did is a congratulations gift or something. I totally got math for a champagne saver.

Matthew: I'm unsure if you know, yeah, I'm unsure, Ali, if you know the background of this, but Robin literally bought me a saber and it's hilarious. Sabering, I actually do not even know, the actual history. I'm sure it was some pomp and circumstance going on. Yeah.

Ro Rich: It's Napoleon. It came from Napoleon, the Napoleonic era, and when he opened, Champagne was saber.

Matthew: If you ⁓ you ⁓ ⁓ not savored champagne and any listener, please do this outside and I can I'll talk you through the steps How to savor champagne first start ⁓ with champagne

Ro Rich: ⁓ my god, no, really? Stop it!

Matthew: Do not Prosecco. Why? You're gonna ⁓ like, ⁓ well, I don't wanna use an expensive bottle. What if I screw it up? Prosecco, if you're buying a bottle of wine for under $15, the quality of glass going to be worse. ⁓ are using cheap glass because they're cutting corners, and that's okay. I want my Prosecco out of cheap glass because I want cheap Prosecco. Champagne, though, you're using, it has to handle the pressure and you need thick glass. ⁓ And because if you go wrong on Prosecco, it will break the entire bottle because the glass can't handle So use a really a good champagne go buy a Vloklyko Second it needs to be super super super cold put it in the freezer for 15 to 30 minutes Just like we open a warm coca-cola or something the heat Increases carbonation and the bubbles so you want the bubbles ⁓ to be super tight because you don't want to explode So you want super cold?

Ro Rich: Thank you.

Matthew: champagne. Then there's like two other things you can always like google this because i'm not going to be able to do this in a audio format but you're going to move the cage a little and then you're going put it above the the the ⁓ slightly and then you're going to put the cage back on and then you're going to find every bottle has a line on the side of the bottle and that's where they join and make the bottle All you're gonna do is take a butter knife. You're gonna take a, you can take a bigger knife and you can flip it around. I've seen it, someone do it with a spoon. I've seen someone do it with ⁓ a champagne flute. They literally will use the champagne flute in the bottom of the champagne flute. You can use whatever you want. And all you're gonna do is you're gonna, ⁓ with confidence, you're just ⁓ move your knife

Allie Miller: Get out. ⁓ topic.

Matthew: that little seam all the way to the top and you're gonna just go in one foul swoop. And the pleasure you get from sabering is like every time I do it, I'm like, why the fuck do I not do this every time? You know, why am I not sabering everything? you just, it's hilarious.

Allie Miller: you

Matthew: So I promise you it's not as hard as it is. On champagne, this is one thing that I will always the hill will die on, is that when you are opening champagne, never take off the cage. This is a design thing. The cage is exactly six twists, no matter the champagne, no matter the type of sparkling wine. It will always be one, two, three, four, five. The next time you open it, every single bottle will be the exact same six twists. And all you're gonna do is you're gonna put your thumb on top of the cage, move it six, and then never take the cage off, because you always will want your thumb on top of the bottle, because you're it's six atmospheres of pressure. This is some pretty dangerous stuff. So just hold your thumb and then twist the bottle and the cork at the same time. Never remove your thumb from it. So six turns and then just twist together. So that's your if you're not sabering I'm pro saber But if you're not sabering make sure it's six twists and your thumb never leaves that cork. It is extremely dangerous

Ro Rich: this brings us to the Design Darling of the Week, where we talk about a moment in pop culture, history, anything that we love, that we're like, ⁓ my gosh, that's fab. We love it. We give it snaps. I'm going to start. with this as I was thinking about it actually as you were speaking Matthew I want to bring back the 90s blind taste test you all remember when they would like get people on the street and they would be like try this Coke or Pepsi or try this new flavor of Coke and what do you think of it and they would do it with Ragu and pasta sauces and it would be this whole funny thing I say bring back the blind tasting to your summer parties so get a bottle of cab sav from California and get one from Italy cover the label pour it Drink it with your friends and decide which one you like better and then ⁓ my gosh do the reveal at the end So that's my 90s nostalgia throwback that I think we should do this summer with wine

Matthew: I love that. I love a blind taste. Love.

Allie Miller: Yeah. All right, Design Darlene of the Week is probably for me a top 10 SNL skit, but it's Moe Shondon. ⁓ Trekkie.

Matthew: Hahaha

Ro Rich: Wow.

Allie Miller: Brecky's friend. you have not seen this skit, it is hilarious. It's two ⁓ and Brecky's friend, two former adult workers who basically their job is selling high-end luxury items. It's Shandon. And they're like, ⁓ it's bubbly, for graduations, for celebration. And it's great. I think it just does a lovely job personifying how the average person feels about drinking something nice. But it's incredibly approachable.

Matthew: love. I yeah that's definitely like a vocal stem. I love that so much.

Allie Miller: Okay, our guest of honor, Matthew, we're putting you on the spot. What is your design darling of the week?

Matthew: Yeah, I'm gonna do like the low-hanging fruit one and if you haven't seen the movie sideways, it's a 2004 film with Paul Giamatti

Ro Rich: Yeah.

Matthew: That movie people do not realize actually changed the wine industry culturally fully shifted because paul giamotta in that film was like I only drink pinot noir and there's a quote where he's i'm not drinking any freaking ⁓ merlot and just against merlot ⁓ and ⁓ that for 15 saw global decline ⁓ in plantings in ⁓ merlot sales so now that people They ⁓ up Merlot vineyards and they replanted it with Pinot Noir ⁓ this is because of a movie that was released based on a book but truly this weird character his own not liking of a single variety is still having ripple effects so much so that this month at the wine bar we did not put a Merlot ⁓ we didn't label it as Merlot we labeled as Bordeaux end because Merlot does not sell still to this day 20 years later.

Allie Miller: Wow, that's such a good one.

Matthew: Such a great movie, too.

Ro Rich: That's wild. ⁓ my god.

Matthew: I think it's Sandra ⁓ and Paul Giamatta and like there's this metaphor where she's like, why do you even like Pinot Noir? And he does this monologue about how Pinot Noir is a finicky grape that needs love and it's kind of hilarious. ⁓ It is true. is true. Like Pinot Noir is like a finicky, finicky bitch to grow. But when you have good stuff, ⁓ my God, it's delicious. And it's literally about him being like, love me. ⁓

Allie Miller: Yeah.

Ro Rich: Is it true? ⁓ my gosh, so it's about him being the finicky grape and surprise, he's the finicky grape. ⁓ my gosh.

Allie Miller: He's a metaphoric. He's obvious as Peter Noir.

Matthew: Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes, yes, yes. So that's another, yeah, that's just like a culture of that plus Frazier. Me and Frazier always, always are talking wine, so I love it.

Ro Rich: I'm gonna add Drops of God in there too because I recently watched it and I... the first season I loved I haven't really gotten into the second season yet so the first one was really really fascinating. Everything about that story and the way they told it and ⁓ my gosh so Ali if you haven't seen it definitely watch. Impressive.

Allie Miller: Mm. I've not. All right.

Matthew: I love it.

Allie Miller: Robin, do you want to take us home?

Ro Rich: I'm going to go chill some rosé actually for a little dinner we're having later. And I have four bottles of rosé sitting over there because I was supposed to go to a dinner party last weekend. It didn't happen. Long story boring. So I'm gonna pick, since we're having Italian for dinner, I'm gonna see if I have any rosés over there that have Italian grapes or from the region. And I'll let you know how it goes. So. Happy sipping everyone. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time. Goodbye darlings.

Allie Miller: Goodbye darlings.

Matthew: Goodbye. Thank you all. See you.