Why Does One Documentary Clip Cost $70,000?

[The $70,000 Mistake: Why Licensing Matters]

0:00Teddy Cannon:The first Jackson 5 clip would probably cost them anywhere from $50,000 to $70,000 for the video and for the audio licensing. And that's, I'm sure for them, a jaw-dropping moment. And that was just the first clip in it.

Teddy Cannon:[Documentary First show open]

Teddy Cannon:[Music bed]

0:18Christian Taylor:Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Documentary First. Today, we're talking about the one thing that can absolutely bankrupt your film before you even finish it. Licensing. Veteran ARC Producer Teddy Cannon is here to explain why your favorite clip might cost you $70,000, and more importantly, how you can protect your budget by bringing in an expert upstream instead of waiting until it's too late. If you want to avoid the messy middle of production, this episode is for you.

Christian Taylor:[Segment: Welcome and Intro of Teddy Cannon] Today I am sitting down with veteran media producer, overseeing legal rights and clearances and a tech software entrepreneur, Teddy Cannon. Welcome to the show, Teddy.

0:54Teddy Cannon:How you doing?

0:55Christian Taylor:I am awesome. I'm really happy to be here with you today. Today we are going to be talking about ARC. Why don't you tell us what that is.

Christian Taylor:[Segment: What is ARC Producing?]

1:03Teddy Cannon:So, ARC is an Archival and a Clearance Producer. In today's production line, we don't normally have just an archival producer and a clearance producer. They've kind of melded the two together. You are an archival producer, but you're also expected to clear as well. So I call that an ARC Producer.

1:24Christian Taylor:How did you get into this type of work? It is very specific. Also, people don't really understand how important it is. And people usually leave it till the end. And I say people, people like me, because I did that. It was not a wise decision. And I'm here hoping to keep people from making the same mistakes I did, which is why I have you on today, to teach us why that is a bad idea. Tell us how you got involved in this and what exactly it all means.

Christian Taylor:[Segment: How Teddy Became an ARC Producer]

1:51Teddy Cannon:I did a lot of years doing the segment producing for shows like World's Scariest. And we were expected to pull all of the materials together to tell the full story arc. I didn't actually work in the clearance department until I learned what it was and how important it was. I really, really have just absorbed it. It is what we do in the link in the production. You're just like standing in the middle between production and legal and then all of the vendors. And it's a really interesting place to be. I really loved being there and I've been doing that for 10 years now. And that's what I'm doing.

Teddy Cannon:[Segment: What are Clearance and Third-Party Assets?] So, clearance is the department that handles all of your third-party assets. A third-party asset is anything that is not owned by the production. So, anything that they went out and shot, which would be interviews and B-roll and anything that they created, which would be personal assets like people's photos and documents. Videos, and those videos can be brought in that are not owned by the production. That could be personal videos or it could be newscast type stuff. It could be stock footage, which would be videos and stills, and audio. And then we have to make sure that everything is cleared to use in the production. Ideally, before it goes on the palette of the editor. So the editor can freely use what's on their palette in what they're cutting.

Teddy Cannon:[Segment: Why Third-Party Assets Aren't Just Free to Use]

3:21Christian Taylor:Why wouldn't it be free to use? Why can't I just use it if I want?

3:24Teddy Cannon:Because it's owned by somebody. If you go and you shoot an event in your neighborhood, and you post it up to YouTube, and then a production wants to use it, they have to get your permission to use it. They actually have to get a document. Otherwise what will happen is, if they put something in their production and it's broadcast, but they didn't clear it, the people that actually own that asset can come back and say, you did not ask me if you could use that. You didn't pay me. And then usually they come back with a ridiculous sum of money because they think Hollywood has got money coming out of their ears. And that is a devastating thing for a producer to hear.

Teddy Cannon:[Segment: Public Location is not Public Domain]

4:07Christian Taylor:And it presents a lot of risk. If I take a picture of artwork or a statue, can I use it in my film? I remember I was in France and I had taken a picture of this beautiful statue and I thought I can use this in my film. Well, that's not necessarily so. I didn't know that. Why wouldn't that be as simple as that, Teddy?

4:22Teddy Cannon:Okay, so you're touching on something that is actually a frequent problem. What you're talking about is a work of art, and it's owned by somebody. And if you're putting it in your film, then you have to clear a work of art. Taking a photo of a beautiful statue that's in an environment and then putting it in your production is something that you might have to clear. But also, I'll tell you what's really, really frequent that happens, and this is why I always say it's important to have your clearance person in the pre-production meeting. The crew will go out and of course the crew is absolutely professional and they know what they're doing, but it doesn't hurt to have your clearance person in the meeting that can just speak up and say, please be aware of your frame. If there's any artwork behind the person or any photos or anything that needs to be cleared, we're going to have to do that. So either you need to in the field be very vigilant on how you're framing your interview, or you need to send a screen grab of the frame to me and I can review it for you and tell you you're clear, or that is a piece of art and you're going to have to clear it. And so that's one of the things that we run into further downstream when they're in post, long after they've been and shot at an Airbnb and who knows where, and trying to find out what that piece of artwork was on the wall by getting the person who manages the property to go over to the property and look at the back of the painting to see if they can get a name. It is not an easy situation. They are never working within our time limits. When you're not downstream, it's a very different situation. You're like, I need you to do it right now. And it's like, they'll do it in a week or two.

6:21Christian Taylor:And it's never cheap and it's never within budget. Which is why that's the whole point of this podcast, that we want people to understand the importance of starting with an ARC Producer at the very beginning and scheduling them in the budget before you ever begin production. Now we have a wonderful example of why this is the case. So, you had a case study, I think, that you want to share with us.

Christian Taylor:[Segment: Hire an ARC Producer Early. The Jackson 5 Case Study]

6:45Teddy Cannon:I have a couple of case studies. The first one is one that's actually happening right now. And it is a group that has put together a learning video series, and there are about nine episodes to it. And it's based around music. And they already cut it. It's already locked. It's already everything. And they came to me and said, can you clear this for us? So, in their first episode, they are using 30 seconds of The Jackson 5. Then there's another artist, very, very famous artist, that they're using. And that's not to mention that all the way through the series, they bring up album covers and they bring up all kinds of things while they're talking about how to make the music. I don't know what they're going to do now. They're in trouble, because I sort of sketched out the first thing, the Jackson 5 clip. If your audience doesn't know, the Jackson family is hyper-protective of their brand. Highly unlikely. And this is performance video and music. So the music runs with the performance on video, and then they cut and the music still plays. So there's multi-layers of licensing there. And music is very difficult to fair use. And your project has to be specific to being able to fair use. This is a for-profit learning series, and they would not be able to fair use. The first Jackson 5 clip, I sketched out that it would probably cost them anywhere from $50,000 to $70,000 for the video and for the audio licensing. And I mean, I'm sure for them, it was a jaw-dropping moment. And that was just the first clip in it. And this is the type of situation where they just didn't think that they needed anybody. They're just going to put it together and then they'll get it later. We'll clear it later. That is a recipe for disaster. You're taking great risk, and once you're already locked and everything's done and you're literally an editor and a producer, you're in trouble and no money.

8:49Christian Taylor:Did that amount include the ARC Producer and the lawyer?

8:52Teddy Cannon:No, just to clear it. They wanted me to go through the whole series. And I was like, you have to hire me if you want me to go through a whole series, but I'll give you the first clip. And it wasn't that hard to come up with how much it would cost to license Jackson 5.

9:12Christian Taylor:We're going to get to what it costs to hire an ARC Producer later. I need you to go back, because some of our audience may not understand a term that you used, called fair use.

Christian Taylor:[Segment: What is the Fair Use Doctrine?]

9:21Teddy Cannon:Fair use is a doctrine that allows documentarians to use copyrighted material if it serves a purpose. If you're a documentary, then you squarely fall in the category that can fair use, and you should fair use. So not only should you work with an ARC Producer who's familiar with fair use because they can tell you while you're trying to put this together, that's not going to be cleared for fair use by an attorney. So you want that, and then you absolutely have to have the attorney because of your E and O insurance. You can only get the E and O insurance if you have a letter from the attorney that says, I've looked at the cut, it's clear. And oh, by the way, here's all the stuff that I say you can fair use. So, that's why you have to have an attorney. So, an ARC Producer and a fair use attorney working on this. But, like I said, if you're a documentarian and you're speaking to, usually the rule of fair use is, if you're talking about a duck and there's a duck on screen, it falls under fair use. So, either your talking head or your VO needs to be speaking to what we're seeing on screen for it to actually fall within the boundaries of fair use.

10:36Christian Taylor:So, can you give me an example?

Christian Taylor:[Segment: Fair Use Example. News Footage]

10:39Teddy Cannon:So, I'll use news footage. News footage is expensive, but it's not ridiculously expensive. But for documentarians, sometimes even that expense is something that, if you don't have to pay for it and it fits within fair use, then you should use it. So, the perpetrator took off and hit the freeway and was on their way to wherever. And then you cut to news footage of that either happening, or them talking about that happening. And that would fall into fair use.

Teddy Cannon:[Sponsor break: Documentary First Brought To You By Virgil Films Entertainment]

Teddy Cannon:[www.virgilfilms.com]

12:13Christian Taylor:How much does an ARC Producer cost? Question one. Question two, how do you begin your relationship with an ARC Producer?

Christian Taylor:[Segment: The Cost and Duties of an ARC Producer]

12:21Teddy Cannon:So, it depends on the project. We have very veteran ARC Producers that ask for $3,500 a week. And that would include veterans that just want to work, $2,500 a week. And then junior people come in for cheaper than that. But you really want to have somebody senior on who can tell you immediately about something. Like the Jackson 5. We're going to use Jackson 5 here. Nope. You want to pay for it? It's going to be expensive. They can tell you right off the bat. Being able to turn that around very quickly in the moment, instead of finding out three or four or five days later or two weeks later when the attorney said, Jackson 5 is, so you want somebody who's senior. Plus, they have like really, really great relationships.

13:05Christian Taylor:Explain how that makes a difference.

Christian Taylor:[Segment: How Big of an Impact can an ARC Producer Make?]

13:06Teddy Cannon:It makes a difference, I guess, for the producer in if the budget is very low, then those relationships know and respect each other to be able to have a frank conversation on what the project wants to use and how much money they have to use it. If you've had a longstanding relationship with these outlets, definitely, I believe it helps.

13:30Christian Taylor:So, talk to me about how somebody hires an ARC Producer. What that looks like, how do you get a quote?

13:35Teddy Cannon:You can post jobs on Staff Me Up. There's the Archival Producers Association, the APA. That's where you're getting really good archival. Again, they're called archival, but all of the people that I work with are veteran clearance people as well. So, you reach out, and basically you start to have a conversation with the person. And in that conversation, you know pretty clearly, can the person do the job? There's also the connecting of the people. Because you're working in a really fast-paced, high-stress situation. I call them dance partners. And you want to make sure that you can dance with this person, that they're going to dance with you, and that just is a feeling you get. You will get that from your archival producer. You will go, this is the person. Not only are they knowledgeable, but I feel like they are connecting with me. And then they quote you their rate, their weekly rate, and then you hire them.

14:32Christian Taylor:In some ways, it seems like they act as a point guard. You're the coach of your project. They're acting as a point guard with the lawyers, with the different places who own the assets. And that can be music, photos, videos, paintings. That can be any number of things.

Christian Taylor:[Segment: Berry Picking. A Seasoned Berry Picker Knows Where to Find the Right Berries]

14:49Teddy Cannon:So let me just add one thing to what you're saying. What we're also really, really skilled at, when I said earlier on that we put the paint on the palette of the editor, so we know how to find what you're looking for. It's like you've hired somebody to go pick berries for you. You tell them what kind of berry you want. And they're like, ooh, I know where to get that berry. And so they know how to navigate into the brush and find the berries that you need. And then if the berries aren't there, they have been working so long at this that they can sort of like, okay, I'll give you one project I work on, which was a murder that happened in Redding, California in the 1970s. And they needed to set the tone of the area. And they just weren't finding it on any of the standard stock places. And so I started reaching out to like very small museums in the area, and sometimes they didn't even have stuff digitized, but they were willing to let somebody come in and digitize what they had so that they can have material to put in their project that would set the tone for Redding, California in 1972. That is why you want somebody who is a veteran because they know where to go. And if it's not apparent, then they are really good at figuring out where to get it. Like, that's my advice on that.

16:10Christian Taylor:I think your whole point of hiring a veteran is fantastic, because you're right. If the berry isn't there, you're thinking creatively about how to solve a problem.

16:21Teddy Cannon:And we've done it a thousand times before.

Teddy Cannon:[Segment: The Importance of Unique Archival Material]

16:23Christian Taylor:And I think it's got to be a source of pride maybe. I was wondering, can you think about any projects that stand out for you like that, that you're like, my gosh, I'm super proud?

16:34Teddy Cannon:Kiss the Future, which was on the Oscar list, but then it didn't get chosen. But amazing documentary that is about U2 and their involvement in stopping the siege on Sarajevo. There was just this archival footage used in it. It literally makes the piece. So, you have CNN. So back then there were really only a handful of outlets, and that footage has been used over and over and over again. And so if you're making a documentary and you keep using the same footage, it's not super enticing for the audience. But that stuff that you can find that they've never seen before is the stuff that really impacts. And so that one was filled with that. I'll tell you one that I wasn't a part of that I'm very proud of, my community, at how important we are to the link in the production line. It's starting to get noticed. We have been sort of delegated as like the lowest end of the production and get very little respect traditionally. These people who can give you, like I said, the paint on your palette to make something that is really incredible. There's a movie out called Yacht Rock that is all about the genre of music that is called yacht rock, that is literally littered end to end with archival. And I can't remember the name of the archival producer that worked on that movie, but he got third billing, which was great. I felt really great that they understood how important this person was so much that they put him as third billing on the project. I mean, what we do is amazing.

18:19Christian Taylor:Yeah, that's amazing.

18:25Teddy Cannon:If you get somebody good, they can give you something that literally changes your project, that may create the most incredible turn in the story that you needed. And that's what we do.

18:40Christian Taylor:It's so true. With this World War II project that I did, everybody's seen so much World War II footage and the photos, and they just keep recycling them. And that was my mission. What can I find that people have not seen before? And I had to go in and find the images myself. And, you know, it just took forever. But when you find somebody that's already done that work, they are worth the money, worth their weight in gold. I think documentaries are expanding. They are taking off.

19:02Teddy Cannon:Yeah.

19:08Christian Taylor:As is the media that regular people are producing that other people want to use in many different ways. And so, then you do have to license those. And now people are media savvy enough to know, no, I'm not going to just let you use that. I want to be paid for that.

19:21Teddy Cannon:Yep.

19:30Christian Taylor:I think there's a growing demand for people in your field. It's just that now people need to realize they need to be added at the beginning and not at the end.

19:37Teddy Cannon:That's it, sister.

19:40Christian Taylor:All right, so then now let's go back and talk about this product that you are working on. It's going to revolutionize our little industry here.

Christian Taylor:[Segment: ArcWorks. A New Archival Management System Coming Soon]

19:47Teddy Cannon:So, the company is called 3P Sync, and we're developing a system that's called ArcWorks. What it does is it handles third-party assets all the way through the process of bringing them into the system to deliverables. And it really comes down to, the whole rest of the production line is digital. And then you have our link in the production line, and we still work on spreadsheets. And it's crazy that we work on spreadsheets. It takes a very, very long time. You know, if somebody sends you over a hundred assets to bring into the system, you have to do it manually. And it just doesn't need to be that way anywhere because we live in a digital world and we're talking about digital items. And so, my system has the ability to extract all the information from the digital asset, name it, put it into your system. And then once the EDL comes in, it immediately rectifies and tells you exactly what's in it. And then the next phase of it will have deliverables and will have a fair use rating on it. It won't be able to tell you for sure that you can fair use this. It'll give you a rating on it. And a document signing area. So, one of the issues we have is that we deal with a lot of documents that have to get signed. And right now you have a PDF and it goes out to so-and-so, or you send a docu-sign to somebody, and it takes forever to get that back. And we can be basically managing 10, 20, 30, 40 documents out at a time. And so, my drive is to have everything central. And so you would have in the system a tab for your signing area, your document area. You would upload your document into it and then invite all parties to come and review it and put their red lines in it, and hopefully within a day, you've got a document that's locked. And once it's locked, you can sign it, and then everyone gets a copy and the executed copy is archived in the system. So, that's what we're working on.

21:57Christian Taylor:Yeah, that sounds amazing. I can't wait for that to come to fruition. Our industry needs it. I'm ready for it. I want to use it for my next project. Can't wait for it. Well, I really appreciate your time. This has been enlightening. What else do you have to say before we go?

Christian Taylor:[Segment: How to Reach Teddy Cannon]

22:11Teddy Cannon:I'm open to consult with anybody who has got questions. My email is [email protected]. Happy to consult. I work with an attorney. If you're just getting started on your project, absolutely happy to give you some pointers on how to go forward with it and even get some preliminary attorney response on the content that you're trying to tell a story about and how to handle it. So, I would just say again, like I've been hammering over and over again, bring us on at the top. Bring us on at the top.

Teddy Cannon:[Segment: DocuView Déjà Vu]

22:48Christian Taylor:Yep, that's it, absolutely. Well, I would highly recommend reaching out to Teddy. He is one of the good guys. So, he comes highly recommended. And I just think it is good money to start from the beginning with an archival producer. So, just word to the wise. So, before we go, we got to do our DocuView Déjà Vu, everybody's favorite segment. You've already given us two movies. Yacht Rock. And then the other one was?

23:12Teddy Cannon:Yeah.

23:16Christian Taylor:The other one?

23:16Teddy Cannon:Kiss the Future.

23:17Christian Taylor:Kiss the Future. Those are the two. Yacht Rock and Kiss the Future.

23:21Teddy Cannon:Kiss the Future is on Paramount Plus. Yacht Rock, I don't remember when that's on.

23:25Christian Taylor:Okay, well, we'll find it.

23:26Teddy Cannon:Just thank you, Christian, for like, for all of us that have to like more than 50 percent of the time, clean up a mess, for helping get the word out there so that that doesn't happen anymore.

23:39Christian Taylor:Yeah, my pleasure. I think you guys are heroes. I think you deserve a lot of recognition. It's hard work. It's hard work in the background and nobody notices it. It's sort of like editors are finally now getting credit as writers. And I cheer that, because I do think editors in documentary film do help write the story. And I feel the same is true about ARC Producers. You guys are part of writing this story, especially in a documentary.

24:02Teddy Cannon:Yeah.

Teddy Cannon:[Segment: Text This To A Friend Who Needs It]

24:06Christian Taylor:And I just, I recognize that the hard way by just messing it up like I do so many other things. So, anyway, my pleasure.

Christian Taylor:[Segment: Documentary First Signing Off] If this conversation was useful, the single best thing you can do is text it to one person. Somebody making a documentary. Somebody about to make the same clearance mistakes I made. Or somebody who'd just appreciate a smart conversation about how this work really gets done. One share. That's the ask. And if you're new here, hit follow on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you're listening. A quick written review on Apple Podcasts goes further than you'd think. And if you want to go deeper, join us on Patreon. Info's in the show notes.

24:41Christian Taylor:All right, everybody. Thank you so much for listening to Documentary First, where we believe everybody has a story to tell, and you can be the one to tell it. Bye, everybody.

Christian Taylor:[Documentary First outro music]