DAVID HIGGS: THE MAN BEHIND THE FIRE, SUCCESS, OBSESSION, CYCLING & THE PRICE OF GREATNESS

0:00SPEAKER_01:You've been very successful. What is it giving you that you haven't expected?

0:03SPEAKER_00:It surprises me every time.

0:05SPEAKER_01:And what has success taken away from you?

0:07SPEAKER_00:You're literally just giving yourself all the time. From the minute you walk in to the minute you leave at life.

0:12SPEAKER_01:Becoming a chef, was that a dream or did it slowly become an obsession?

0:15SPEAKER_00:No, it's never a dream. Somehow I was drawn to the hotel industry. It wasn't even chefing, you know.

0:21SPEAKER_01:Can you have success and balancing one?

0:23SPEAKER_00:In my industry, I think it's very, very difficult.

0:25SPEAKER_01:To be successful, I feel you've got to be an unbalanced person or obsessed with just something, and otherwise success is never gonna come.

0:31SPEAKER_00:Because you have to make choices.

0:32SPEAKER_01:And that's not how you sacrificed any type of relationship for your career.

0:36SPEAKER_00:And I think the tough part is when you start realizing what you're doing to them. People also need support from their things that they do. And when you don't have that capability to do that for them, then you're not that popular anymore.

0:47SPEAKER_01:Success is a drug, is it addictive?

0:49SPEAKER_00:I think initially, maybe when you when you're younger, for sure.

0:52SPEAKER_01:Manifest does David Hicks manifest his life actually.

0:55SPEAKER_00:Never manifested anything in my life.

0:56SPEAKER_01:Are you at peace with the life that you've lived so far?

0:59SPEAKER_00:Yeah, which is a very blessed and very fortunate. How's your relationship with exercises? I'm the fittest I've ever been at 55.

1:14SPEAKER_01:With the number one South African podcast, and today we've got the number one South African chef with us. David Higgs. Welcome to the NG Edge.

1:22SPEAKER_00:Thank you, and I don't know about that, but yeah, I appreciate it.

1:25SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna get straight into it. If I took away the chef, the restaurantier, the the accolades, the public recognition. Who is David Higgs when nobody's watching?

1:42SPEAKER_00:Well, actually, I mean, if you took all that away, I'd still be I'd still be that same that same guy, you know. I I think one of the things over the years of of cooking and and uh and interacting so much with people, um, it's been very important for me to to always remain who who I was, and and because we never know what happens tomorrow, you know. And I'll give you a perfect example of that, of being almost not loyal to my country, but but but not but not having left the country to go cook somewhere else or whatever.

2:14SPEAKER_00:Um what that builds is, I mean, I started cooking when I was 18 years old. Um, I'm now 56 this year. It's a long time. People get to know you, people get to trust you. Um you you you know, it's it's this beautiful family that you sort of create, which never go away. I mean, those that followed me when I was 19, 20 years old, or or now that I'm 55, or sometimes the same people, sometimes the same staff, you know, the the the same team, the same yes, it's it's it's it is the most incredible space that I'm in.

2:45SPEAKER_00:Um we have a we have uh yeah, we have a very small creative network that we uh that we uh have built over years um with the same people. And uh yeah, in short, to answer your question is that um I uh I don't know, I don't know, I don't know how to answer that really. I I uh um I'm fiercely loyal, you know. Um I have a very, very um I have no tolerance of of no common sense. I have no tolerance of someone who doesn't want to achieve. I uh um but I'm a very good teacher.

3:43SPEAKER_00:Um you know I love sharing knowledge, which is not always a chef's strong point. Um and that was one of the reasons why I started a cookery school so many years ago. So yeah, I I I don't know if that answers your question, but that that that's sort of who I am, you know.

3:59SPEAKER_01:Does answer my question. What I'm getting from that is community. You've built this community around you, and that's what you're loyal to, and they're loyal to you, yeah. And that's what you thrive on. Yeah, and we're gonna get into community just now. Yeah, success. You've been very successful. What has it given you that you haven't expected?

4:19SPEAKER_00:You know, I it surprises me every time. Every time you I mean, since since I started my first business, every time you you you start something and now you're having to to almost sell this this product that you that you're starting, um there's immediately this this hell of an attention to that. I'm not talking about media, I'm just talking about people. Um and I think you know that it every time it catches me, you know, it's just you know, you really have a you know you've really made quite an impact in in in in the food space specifically.

5:01SPEAKER_00:Um so I I think that I've never really sort of never really not appreciated, but I I I think sometimes you forget the the impact that you make. And and then every time you do something like you think, Jesus, what a what an honor, you know. Um how fortunate are we to be able to do what we're doing and and have this following? But it comes with trust and it comes with incredibly hard work and and and and unfortunately with a lot of sort of um yeah, there's there's there's also the negatives, you know.

5:39SPEAKER_00:Um that was my next question.

5:41SPEAKER_01:What is success taken away from you?

5:43SPEAKER_00:Well, yeah, that's that's and and you look, I don't want to say that that it's all it's all due to success or or to the job or whatever, but you know, when you when you are working sort of six days a week and uh um when you have very little to give when you get when you get home, um, in the sense that you know you've you know when it comes to a team of of staff and or a a restaurant full of people, you you literally just giving yourself all the time, you know, literally from the minute you walk in to the minute you leave at night.

6:18SPEAKER_00:Um and and you know, when you get home, then I have my English bulldog there, and uh, you know, that's about as much as I can, and he's snoring, not really listening anyway. That's about as much as I can I can give, you know. Um and and and I I'm hoping that that's it's not a regret just yet, but I uh but I'm hoping that's not gonna be a regret, yeah.

6:42SPEAKER_01:Are you good at switching off? No. Or is it something that's just become no?

6:48SPEAKER_00:There's a I can tell you now the last time I switched off was COVID. Uh and before that was at uh probably at school, you know. Um I walk around with a constant knot in my stomach. The anxiety is just like eats at you every day, you know, like what's today gonna bring? And our industry is not about you know, it's not predictable. You know, we don't we don't know from one minute to the next what's gonna happen. And uh I've got better at handling it for sure, and you know, used to be uh quite fiery, and I am still definitely I have I have my moments.

7:23SPEAKER_00:Um but like we all do. Like we all do, but um, but what I what I can say is that uh you know that it's uh I've calmed down a lot of you know I've had to, you know, um and uh just for my own for my own sake. But yeah, when I get home, it's uh it's my home is my sanctuary, you know. I love going home more than more than going anywhere. And I hardly go out, I don't go to restaurants and stuff like that, generally speaking, maybe once in a in a blue moon, you know.

7:51SPEAKER_01:Um I want to go a little bit back to David Higgs, the kid. I'm gonna go back to the roots. What was the young boy actually like?

8:00SPEAKER_00:Funnily enough, I used to love riding my bike. Well, you still do, well, yeah, and it sort of disappeared from my life for 20 years, you know, 30 years probably. Um, but I we used to love, you know, I grew up in Welfare Bay and we had all the salt roads there. It was not uh it, you know, it was um it was fun riding a bike there, it was uh the dunes, the um the gravel, it was all sort of really, you know, um it was really cool. But I think the one of the one of the things that that I sort of loved about um growing up where I did was the the fishing with my dad.

8:37SPEAKER_00:Um it was a real important one of the one of the reasons why I why where the reason why I am where I am today, you know, was because of that, that understanding of of of product, that that respect for product, you know, nothing was thrown away. You know, there's always these buzzwords now about farm to table and nose to table, all this cuck, you know. But it I mean that's how we grew up in the 70s, you know, 60s, 50s, you know, nothing was thrown away.

9:04SPEAKER_00:There was absolutely no wastage. There was no waste, you know. Like, and then the extra fish that was caught was bartered with farmers, so we used to go swap for lamb or sheep or or or cattle, or we used to hunt, you know. Um, so there was always fresh meat and and fresh food, and and my dad was very good with his with his hands, so he had this hydroponics in the back. Um, but the one thing that I did learn from him, and he scared the living shit out of me every day, but uh was discipline was everything, you know.

9:33SPEAKER_00:And and I think you know, going into boarding school, discipline was everything, and going into the army for two years, discipline was everything, and then you go into the kitchen. So my whole life has really been about discipline, timing, you know, um, and it's very difficult to let go, you know.

9:48SPEAKER_01:Uh were you ambitious as as a kid, or did it come, did ambition arrive later?

9:54SPEAKER_00:You know, the the ambition is so uh and I'll never forget uh an interview I had, you know, and you see you read so many of these interviews, and now on on social media and stuff, you see so much of the stuff. You know, they talk to young chefs specifically or young cooks, and uh they say, yeah, you know, what is it that you want in life? Now I want a restaurant and everything else. And I was never, I was always quite realistic about where I was at the time of my life, where I was.

10:21SPEAKER_00:And um, you know, there was no way I was gonna open a fucking restaurant in the in the anywhere in the near future. So so it was I was never goal-oriented, but what I did is I worked in and I still do, I worked incredibly hard. And the blinkers, there wasn't a tunnel vision to a certain goal. There was you were receptive to all sorts of things. Okay. Opened a cookery school, restaurants, wedding venues, corporate catering, industrial catering. You know, I've literally worked in every genre of of food.

10:53SPEAKER_00:And I think that that that has opened many more doors than than than tunnel vision and and too much focused ambition. Yes, we want to succeed, uh, and yes, we want to be better, but you know, you you also got to look after yourself in the process.

11:10SPEAKER_01:When you look back now to your childhood, what memories are still sitting inside the food that you cook? Because you spoke about not wasting food and the fish, etc., and the fishing.

11:23SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, I look, I think I think the you know, when we like I said to you, that's it's it's this term and these these phrases that that sort of really get to me because it's such a shame that we don't cook like that and that the youngsters don't see it like that. I think one of the hardest things for me is to see a youngster that's that's cooking without the passion, you know. He's not even cooking, he's just sort of just throwing stuff together.

11:51SPEAKER_00:And uh so that respect the that I that I had for the product, I didn't even realize I had it until I got into the kitchen space. Saw how people were I mean, my first my first job um was at a three-star hotel, proteo hotel, and they were deep frying chickens in the whole chickens in the deep fryer, you know. And and then like 20 minutes before service, there was no prep, there was no things such as Mison Plus, which is everything in this place for service.

12:21SPEAKER_00:There was no, there was none of that. It was just a complete cowboy kitchen. And then the majority of kitchens are cowboy kitchens, you know. And that's almost what gripped me about the kitchen. It was cool because there was always this, there was this very chilled mornings and everything else, and the next thing all out would break it was, you know, just absolute fucking chaos. And as a youngster, geez, my I mean, my head chef, Victor Lyons, maybe I shouldn't have said that, but um, used to smoke pot under the extractor fan every day, you know, just like just the whole fucking day.

12:50SPEAKER_00:He was my leader, he was the guy. Uh I I mean I didn't follow in his footsteps, but um, but yeah, that that's that was the start of it. So that that chaos is what initially attracted to me that, and then obviously, then trying to then uh make sense of all of that and then put it into something that's structured and disciplined, you know.

13:11SPEAKER_01:Becoming a chef, was that a dream, or did it slowly become an obsession?

13:16SPEAKER_00:No, it was never a dream. It was never, never ever knew it was there, it came out of desperation. Um, really needed a job, um, came out of the army, literally had fucking nothing, so um had no options, um, had to start working. And somehow I was drawn to to the hotel industry. It wasn't even chefing, you know. Um I I'll I always tell the story. When I was in the army, I wrote a letter to the Longhorn group. Now, I don't know if you remember the Longhorn group, but the Longhorn group was Squires Loft, Longhorn.

13:46SPEAKER_00:It was all it was the the era before the the more formal restaurants, you know. But they were legendary. Uh everybody worked at Squires Loft, everybody worked for the Longhorn Group. Anyway, they rejected me. I've still got that letter somewhere, and uh yeah, today I think she's buggers. Um but yeah, but you missed out on. But yeah, so it it's it's it's never it's yeah. Um just very fortunate through that process of of going into a hotel, saying to the the the manager, because I was just I was just basically walking in from I was walking from hotel to hotel, and I walked into this space, and there was this little German chef by the name of not little, it was a fucking big guy, by the name of uh Manfred Schultz.

14:33SPEAKER_00:And he looked at me and he says, How can I help you? I said, No, listen, I'll I'll I'll fucking do anything, but you know, I'm really looking for something. I really want to sort of be in the hotel industry. So he said to me, Um, can you cook? I said, Yeah, I was a chef in the army, which I never was, and uh, so I bullshit my way in there, and then he said he asked me two or three questions, and I knew I didn't know what the fuck I was saying because he was trying to figure out how much I knew about food, and I knew nothing.

14:58SPEAKER_00:Anyway, he uh the breakfast chef was on leave, and uh I got a I got a job for for I think it was six weeks, and and then thank god they kept me on, you know.

15:10SPEAKER_01:So people romanticize being a chef.

15:13SPEAKER_00:Yeah.

15:14SPEAKER_01:We see the beautiful food, the restaurants. What don't they understand about the psychological pressure of life when as a chef?

15:24SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think you I always try and explain to people, well not explain to people, but I always try and say to people, like, look, they look at Gordon Ramsay, for instance, you know, and they think how this thing is put on and and it's a show and everything else. It's not a fucking show. Really, that's the fucking reality of it. We all behave differently in kitchens. Uh different things push our buttons, and some people can be calm, others can't be, you know, and and and it's from the morning when the team arrives.

15:54SPEAKER_00:Now two or three of the guys are sick. Then your fish arrives, only half the order is there, or it's wrong, so you've got to send it back. But come 12 o'clock and come six o'clock, you've got to be ready for service. No matter what. Customer's not interested in your shit.

16:07SPEAKER_02:Yeah.

16:07SPEAKER_00:You know what I mean? You've got to be ready for it. Like there's no, there's no questions asked, you know. So the amount of pressure that you you wake up in the morning, you don't know what you're in for, you know, then these things start piling up, you know, let alone the bills and the things to pay and you know, all of these kind of things. So there's this there's this absolute constant constant pressure. Then you cook, then you get the feedback.

16:29SPEAKER_00:Then now the with with social media and everything else, you know, there's this the the it's coming in all the time, you know. We serve, I worked it out the other day, we serve with all the pantries and everything else, hot meals, we're serving uh on a weekend two and a half thousand people per day.

16:47SPEAKER_01:That is crazy.

16:48SPEAKER_00:It's mad per day, per day, easily, easily. So, you know, no, there's always a percentage that are not going to be happy.

16:55SPEAKER_01:It doesn't matter if not everyone's happy with the BMW or a Mercedes-Benz. This is not a sponsored post.

17:03SPEAKER_00:So, yeah, it it's uh it never lets off. Ever. That's the hardest, that's the only way that I can put it. Is that this thing that's sitting right here while I'm talking to you, this thing that's sitting right here in my stomach just does not go away.

17:22SPEAKER_01:So there has to be some form of obsession.

17:25SPEAKER_00:Yeah.

17:27SPEAKER_01:How much of it is actually unhealthy? How much of it is healthy?

17:34SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I think the bigger you get, the the the the the balance changes, you know. It's very difficult to sort of separate yourself from what's going on around you. It's it's really hard. And I think that's where my my cycling comes in as almost the obsession. Um in the sense that it's it's that one escape that I get. And I you know, the the guys always give me shit about riding by myself, but I I really do ride because I actually don't want to fucking talk to anybody, you know what I mean.

18:07SPEAKER_00:Um and and so yeah, I think I look the industry isn't healthy, no matter what, no matter how you look at it, you know. It's it's um I was reading something on on socials the other day with a well-known chef was just saying, you know, like if you want the you know, everybody's talking about the balance in life. Like it's impossible in our industry. There is no fact.

18:33SPEAKER_01:I've asked the previous guest, I don't remember who, but can you be balanced? Can you have success in balance in one?

18:41SPEAKER_00:I I I honestly think it's in my industry, I think it's very, very difficult.

18:45SPEAKER_01:To be successful, I feel you've got to be an unbalanced person, yeah, or obsessed with just something, and yeah, but otherwise success is never gonna come.

18:53SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because you have to make choices and for at the end of the day, you know. But like I said earlier about how we behave in kitchens and you know our personalities, some people do make it work, um, you know, and are incredibly successful and have families, and but there's not many of them. I can tell you that on that note.

19:12SPEAKER_01:Have you sacrificed any type of relationship for your career?

19:17SPEAKER_00:Uh yeah, no, friendships. Um friendships are are different. Relationship, you you're going home to to that to that human, you know, and and I think the tough part is when you start realizing what you're doing to them um more than what you're doing to yourself. Yes, you're unhappy and everything else, but you know, people also need support from their things that they're doing. And when you don't have that capability to do to do that for them, then you're not that partner anymore, you know.

19:51SPEAKER_00:Um and you sometimes you only realize that after the fact, and you know and also you don't want to hurt people, you know. That's not really what the industry is about, or not industry, that's not really what relationships are about. So very sensitive to that. And sometimes I just choose to rather than be who I am and what I am uh and not get you know, not get into it.

20:15SPEAKER_01:What's the darkest period of your career that no one knows about?

20:20SPEAKER_00:Um I think not I think, I know that um there were two. There were my f the start of my first business was was it was a real it was a real entrepreneurial um experience. Uh and let me try to explain that. Um Adrian Gore um hasn't coined the phrase, but he he he heard this somewhere. I spoke to him about it because I always heard that he'd said this. You know, he says being an entrepreneur is like jumping out of an aeroplane with a bag of silkworms and hoping that they can perform, you know.

21:07SPEAKER_00:And and that's really it. My first my first business, I signed a lease for my building, for my cookery school, and I had absolutely no funding, nothing. So I'd signed a lease that I was responsible for with not one cent in the bank. And you know, from from wanting to start a school with 12 students, I got six students, two of them didn't pay, and one of them paid me with baked beans. I don't, I kid you not. The father came in there one day, said to me, I don't have anything, but I've got this truckload of baked beans, and with these fucking eight, ten tons, which is a three kilo ton of baked beans, fucking thousands of them.

21:43SPEAKER_00:You know, and that and that was yeah, so I had three paying students, and then then I had to start thinking out the box, and then started doing night classes, and then we started doing catering, and then yeah, it just fucking boomed, you know. It just just yeah, and that's that the that initial period was dark. Because I didn't quite know what was going to happen next, you know. But I was oblivious to it. Yeah. So it wasn't that bad. However, when we opened Marble 10 years ago this month, August last month.

22:09SPEAKER_00:Congratulations. Yeah, thanks, man. Um, we we were three, four months late. Um, there was massive pressure to perform. We've created this thing. Uh, where we had thousands of followers before we've even opened and bookings, thousands of bookings before we open, and then we open. And you must understand cooking on fire, it's not like brying for a couple of your mates, you know, with a beer in your hand. You know, it's like it's now you have 300 people in your restaurant and you gotta you gotta perform.

22:43SPEAKER_00:And everything was cooked on fire. The meat, the fish, the vegetables, the sauces were started on fire. Like literally everything was cooked on fire. And it was like someone had cut my hands off. We were so, because we didn't have time to practice on our on our grill, because the whole thing was so late, we got to a point where we didn't have a choice, we just had to open the restaurant, you know. And um, I mean, which is not the is not ideal, but it is.

23:08SPEAKER_00:That's life, you know. That's that's how these these things work. And um we, you know, you must understand. So now I decided to go with two suppliers for meat. Okay, one is uh sort of from the Kalari and it's grass-fed, and that whole romantic story. And the other one was uh was elsewhere also also pretty organic, and you know, that that whole thing because that's sort of how we pitched ourselves. Fuck me. Oh, couldn't eat the meat, could not eat the meat, it was tough.

23:39SPEAKER_00:Our fires were running too hot, the guys were getting blisters in the as you were sending food out, the food was coming back. Uh and I sat on the edge of my bed at two, three o'clock in the morning. And uh and hyperventilating and and yeah, uh and had to answer to my partner, you know, who'd put all the all the money in. And uh unfortunately, you know, we we he stood by me and uh and we soldiered on through. And I think that's an important lesson as well, you know.

24:13SPEAKER_00:Um as chefs you get approached a lot to to start restaurants and stuff, and people have this very romantic idea of what what restaurants are, as we said just now. You know, it's this thing about you know the social side of it and the the egos and the fucking this, that, and the other. But there's there's very little of that. So my deal with Gary was when when we got together with this whole thing, he just I just said to him, like, I don't want your money, you gotta be in in you with me.

24:40SPEAKER_00:Like it's not a it's this is not a project that I'm gonna run by myself. And and yeah, that that was that was our agreement, you know.

24:49SPEAKER_01:Listening to all of this, it sounds crazy, it really does. Do you think you have to be slightly crazy to become world-class at something?

24:58SPEAKER_00:Um, yeah, look, I I I I certainly have an edge, that's for sure. I mean, I know that for sure. I I spoke I've spoken about it before, I lose my shit. And you know, uh, and it's you know, not anything that I'm proud of. However, when you know how something has to be for a customer, and you've spent the time training and you've got the right product, we have no excuses, you know. Whether it's me or the the guy that makes my salads or uh the lady at reception or whatever, everybody knows what they need to do.

25:33SPEAKER_00:And with social media nowadays and with all of this instant press and and that there aren't there's no room for error. And unfortunately, uh I've become a victim of that in the sense that I react to that in you know with with with a lot of passion. That's the only way that I can really say that. Because I I know what it takes, not you know how long it takes to fix something like that and what it's taken us to get here. So when people come into the business after the fact, they don't quite understand the the sacrifices, you know.

26:06SPEAKER_00:So so yeah, I I think you know, there's no doubt that there's there's this edge, you know, it's this imbalance. So success. And I wouldn't say I'm an A-ty personality because I d I don't see myself as that. Yeah, you know, I think sportsmen have got that that A-type personality that I'm with you, but I'm not quite that. I've but I'm but don't fight with me. But you know what it takes to be successful in that space.

26:31SPEAKER_01:You've been there, you've done that, you've gone through the hard parts. Yeah, yeah. But now success is a drug that no one talks about. Yeah. Is it addictive?

26:40SPEAKER_00:Um uh I think initially, maybe when you when you're younger, for sure. Um it certainly isn't now, and I can say that I can say that it's very rewarding, yes, to make a success of something, to see s something like Marble or the Pantry, for instance, you know, come to life the way it did through through um an absolute need to to be able to expand our business because of COVID and and everything else, we found ourselves quite exposed. So um yeah, I I I don't think that answers the question.

27:20SPEAKER_00:It does answer. Yeah.

27:22SPEAKER_01:Was there ever a point where you got what you wanted and then thought or realized this is not the feeling I wanted?

27:33SPEAKER_00:No, it happens. It does happen, you know. Um and I'll be honest with you, like Marble is the group that I've been with the longest. And when I say been with, I'm I mean obviously I'm also a director there and part of it, but but that's not wh why I'm still there. I've walked away from businesses before where I know when my time is up. Whether it be my for myself or a situation or or whatever, I know when my time is up. And uh and and I think you gotta be you gotta be strong enough in your own mind to say, you know, when I left when I left Cape Town, we'd we'd built Riston Frederick to this it was only four years, and we'd built this thing to this the best restaurant and the best chef and the best service.

28:16SPEAKER_00:The first time the all three was done, and it really still is this most magical place in Stellomosch. And I walked away from that, and and it wasn't for money, it was less money. Um, I went to the Radisson Hotel in Joburg, the Choutrain Radisson. Wow, yeah, you know, and and started working for somebody else again, you know, and and yeah, um, it would have been very easy for me to say the arrogance would have, you know, been easy for me to say, oh fucking best restaurant, we'll come to Joburg and we'll recreate that, you know, and we'll we'll see how we go.

28:52SPEAKER_00:Joberg's a completely different animal, you know. People didn't even know who David Higgs was, you know. You know, it's and and spending that time at the Radisson and then going to the Saxon for four years, I got to understand what Joburg is about, you know, a little bit. I got to meet people, um, got a network, and I got to sort of to really feel and understand what, like I said, what Joberg wanted, and that's how Marvel sort of came about, you know.

29:19SPEAKER_01:You use the word arrogance. How do you put that aside when success has hit you? Like you, you it hit you at Riston Freder, and you put it aside. And you basically came here, as you just said, as a nobody. No one knew you.

29:33SPEAKER_02:Yeah.

29:34SPEAKER_01:But you there, you were someone, now you know one.

29:37SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's that's not and and a lot of time people confuse. I mean I hear behind my back, you know, people think I'm arrogant and everything else. And uh, I can honestly say to you, that's not there's nothing in my body. But they mistake the your fucking straightness and your directness for for arrogance. It's not that's not arrogance. It's that I know what I want and I know where I need to be. And uh you know what it takes to get there. I know what it takes to get there, and and um, but I I am a little bit of an introvert as well, you know, like believe it or not.

30:12SPEAKER_00:So you know, I don't sort of I don't just go to someone's house for a bra. And if I do go for that, you'll find me, you know that song, you'll find me in the kitchen at parties. That's me, yeah. Sort of drift off to the kitchen or you know, like find a find a comfortable space, you know. What you're doing for the rugby. I'm having a bra. So yeah, it's it's um there's no place for arrogance in anything, I don't think, um, to be honest with you, you know.

30:39SPEAKER_00:Um but yeah, also just don't mistake, just don't mistake hard work and and graft and and understanding uh your your specific space in life with with arrog with arrogance, you know.

30:50SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think it's an easy word that for people to use when they're jealous too.

30:55SPEAKER_00:Yeah, 100%.

30:56SPEAKER_01:Like they're jealous of someone's achievements. Oh, he's arrogant.

30:59SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.

31:00SPEAKER_01:Do you still feel hungry? Or are you now more interested in meaning of it, the meaning of achievement?

31:06SPEAKER_00:No, I'll always be hungry. I think it's the nature of the beast, you know. Um recently started this uh this running and cycling shop with my friend uh Craig, and uh it's been really fucking hard, you know, to be honest with you, you know. Um, but I've something that I really wanted to do outside my norm, you know, outside the the food space, although there is coffee and and food available there. It's just like I've taken a passion and and and sort of seeing where it's seeing where it's going.

31:35SPEAKER_00:You know, Craig runs it, he does it, and we've got a great team there. It looks like it's doing amazing. Yeah, well, it's freaking we're getting there, but it's but it's hard, you know. But yeah, it's it's uh it's nice to do different things as well. Um, but yeah.

31:50SPEAKER_01:What is enough for David Higgs?

31:52SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I don't know.

31:58SPEAKER_01:Does David Higgs know what enough looks like?

32:01SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, definitely. Okay, yeah, yeah, definitely. Like I said you earlier, you know, I I can identify very quickly when when my time is up or or whatever. Um, but what is enough? Uh I don't think I think I'll always be exploring, you know. Um maybe a little bit outside food. I'd love to, you know. You know what's interesting about sport in this country? So I talk about this journey that I took to come to Joburg and and uh I get here, and again, nobody knows knows who I am, what I am.

32:35SPEAKER_00:Not that I expected it, but you know, you'd think you can carry a little bit of gravitas with you, and you would get a following, and and you know, just the most incredible. Tasha from Tasha's used to come to the Radison Hotel of all places and bring 10-20 people with her two, three times a week. She was so good to me, and she still is good to me. And um, you know, and and so all of a sudden, there's this people are coming not for the space and not for you, but they know that the food is good, they know that it's honest, and they you know, so so um what was the question?

33:13SPEAKER_01:Do you know what enough looks like?

33:15SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so so you know, there's this there was this this thing to to the this whole move to to to Joe Burg. I don't know where I was going with that.

33:29SPEAKER_01:You're saying what's incredible about sport in this country. I do listen. Anyone wondered?

33:36SPEAKER_00:Sorry, sorry, so there's this there's this, you know, so there's then all of a sudden you start getting a little bit of following again from the Joburg people, so it's different. The minute I signed on to ride the Cape Epic, and then about a year later, I went to cook at the Tour de France for the for the first MTM Quebec team. Um my following shot, you can't it quadrupled. Absolutely mad and purely based on sport. I'm not even a sportsman, you know.

34:11SPEAKER_00:I love cycling. I could I there's there's very few things that I love more, but um uh yeah, it's it's so I'd like to yeah, I'd like to maybe play around in that field a bit.

34:24SPEAKER_01:So let's get into that a bit. You spend your life in environments that are loud, restaurants, kitchens, people, yeah, social media, but then you get on your bicycle, and you said it earlier, you ride alone. Yeah, people give you not people give you crap for riding alone. Yeah, what happens to David Higgs when he's alone on that bike?

34:45SPEAKER_00:It's like it, you know what irritates me is when people ride with music in their ears and stuff, you know. You dare to just stick, you know what it you know what riding is is firstly, it's about uh it's let's just take, for example, you go overseas, you go ride your bike in a new country. The first thing that hits you about riding in the Mediterranean, um, Sicily was a perfect one of that. You can smell the lemons, the wild fennel on the side of the road as your bike sort of brushes past it.

35:13SPEAKER_00:Like you smell everything. It's fucking amazing, really. And uh the career is like that. That Feinboss that you ride through, those mountain bike races that we do out in Tankoa, and and and uh you know, going over the mountains in uh uh attaquas down in uh in Otsun. You know, this the smell, the the and that's all nostalgic, you know. Smells your strongest sense, it takes you back to places, and you find yourself either having arguments with yourself on the bike or or reminiscing about something or remembering something.

35:45SPEAKER_00:The arguments are the most things. The fuck? Why did you do that? You know, why did you have to say that? Why did you but um the the cycling is is the it's the physical the physical the physicality of it because I really push myself, you know. Like I can't, I can't, yeah. It's the suffering, and you're addicted to that suffering almost in a in a way, you know. It's it's the it's the weirdest thing. Nothing is but it's a South African thing. Because when you when you talk to cyclists overseas, they're not fucking gonna ride the epic or or the manga or the gravel burn, whatever.

36:22SPEAKER_00:They're just gonna ride their bike, you know. We have to fucking win something, you know, whether it is your age group or your little group of guys, you know, we gotta win that thing, you know. So I think a little bit of my personality comes out in that, but but I'm also very realistic about my my capabilities. So, but I do I do love the I do love the push. Um, I love how it switches me off. Um helps me forget. Um why cycling?

36:50SPEAKER_01:Why not golf, running, gym, why the bike?

36:55SPEAKER_00:You know, I think it's I think it's that thing where it it where something from the past where it came, where I loved riding my bike as a kid, and then you know, um didn't ride it again, and then um but I'll give you two two things. How beautiful are these bikes? It's a lot cheaper than a really expensive Mercedes Benz. It's a lot cheaper than it, it's a lot cheaper than a G-Wagon at the moment. The bikes, the technology of the bikes, the the way they're built, how light they are, what they are capable of doing.

37:30SPEAKER_00:You're coming down a mountain on a mountain bike at sometimes speeds of 60, 70, 80 ks an hour over rocks and everything else, and you've got to trust this thing under your under your legs, you know, under your butt. And uh, and they're more than capable of handling anything like that. It's it's it's you just gotta let it go, you know. So I love it to I love the bikes. I love the bike, I customize all my bikes, my own spray jobs. The guys hate me for that.

37:54SPEAKER_00:But uh, but uh and then and then the kit, it's fashion, and that's one of the reasons why I started this bike shop with Craig, you know, as we've we've realized that that cycling has become fashion, whether the bikes or the or the kits, or it's all world-class, it's all been you know, tailored beautifully, it's it's uh got fabrics that breathes properly, that you know, like it's just proper, man. You know, dressing up in light red, what a great feeling.

38:21SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I was gonna say something about spending.

38:31SPEAKER_01:Not so riding a little in solitude. Do you think that's become a lost skill in life?

38:37SPEAKER_00:Definitely. I'll give you a great example of that. Um I I love motorbikes as well. Anything with wheels, really, it's cars, motorbikes, bikes. So I got um I got divorced for the second time. And um I at that stage of my life I'd literally drifted from one relationship into the next. It was just like from one thing to the next. So it's also just trying to find, you know, you start learning things about yourself. And I decided to through advice from a mate, he said, just like just take some time out, you know.

39:13SPEAKER_00:Work was hectic, and you know, and uh I got onto my motorbike, tent in a sleeping bag, and I left Stellenbosch, and the last tar road I rode was in Ceres, which is about 50, 60 Ks. And then I hit that Kalfinia Road over to the Sparchabit, the diamond area, all along the coast into Namibia, over the all the way up to the Konani. Um obviously I grew up in Namibia, so there was a lot of memories there, and then cross into the Caprivi's Zambia and then spent a lot of time in Botswana and then back.

39:51SPEAKER_00:For the first four days, I thought I was having a complete nervous breakdown. It's like I just craved people. I was trying to camp where there were other people just so I could feel the and on the fifth day that started going. And by the end of the trip, I was camping on the the sewer pans in Namibia with fucking not one person around me. And it was the best thing I ever did in my life, and it was the solitude. It was that it was that escape that that then set me.

40:18SPEAKER_00:I mean, I still got no better at relationships, still a weak point, but but I I then didn't feel that I needed to be in one, which which was always the feeling. I need that companionship, you know. Yeah, you weren't chasing it anymore. Yeah, yeah, it's amazing that. Yeah, yeah. Fucking lying in your tent every night, you know, just like nothing and nobody, and like yeah, it's uh it's quite liberating.

40:48SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm trying to think if I could do that, and I think we need to practice that as people, yeah. Yeah, we rely too much on each other, you know. My wife actually we spoke about someone, I won't mention the person who who goes to movies by themselves. Yeah, and like I like I was I I said to my wife, like, how stupid is that? Like, who goes to a movie by themselves? It's like apparently it's a gift. It's like like it's a you're a special human if you could actually do that.

41:14SPEAKER_00:Yeah, look, I mean, when I so I travel every year, I go for about a month or two, no, not two, about a month, six weeks, let's say, every year, um, in June, uh, May, sort of May, June, July, that sort of time. And one of my greatest joys is eating alone, you know. Um just love and watching people um ordering what I want to order, and someone not eating my food out of my plates, you know, it's small joys, but yeah, so yeah, I've I've watched many movies by myself.

41:47SPEAKER_00:Uh yeah, um, but and it's and it's it's you're not looking for bloody pity, it's just it's beautiful, you know. I mean, and it and it is an art, it's not an art, it's a it's a gift, really, to be able to do that by yourself, you know, and and not need that constant uh validation almost or protection, whatever, you know. Yeah, you know the i I'll tell you an interesting thing. I I spoke to someone um a couple of years ago, good couple of years ago, and it's uh it's a poem by Rumi.

42:23SPEAKER_00:I don't know if you know Rumi. So Rumi is one of these um I don't even know he's a poet, but you know, like the the likes of people know Rumi. And they talk about they talk about relationships and marriage. I can't believe I'm on you're giving relationship advice. Fuck. But they but you know, it's and this is this is exactly who who I was, you know. People feel that these two entities need to be like this, this intertwined thing that moves together.

42:55SPEAKER_00:But it's this you remain who you are, you move in the same directions, but you still maintain your identity and who you are. It's fucking difficult. Because it's so easy to do this. We've got to go everywhere together. How why where's where's Corin? Yeah, but he's shouting at someone in the road, but you know, so so you know, and people think it's odd when you do that, but that requires trust, you know, and and loyalty, and those things don't exist anymore.

43:27SPEAKER_00:Everybody's just thinking on their own mission, you know. So it's it's uh come to me for any of your relationship advice.

43:37SPEAKER_01:David Higgs. So I want to get back to that suffering on the bike. What's the hardest thing you've learned about yourself while suffering physically on that bike? Yeah, because I've run comrades and it's changed my life. Every single year when I run comrades, it changes my life. I run a marathon, it changes my life.

44:01unknown:Yeah.

44:03SPEAKER_00:You know, the so for us, it's obviously stage races, you know, which is like a comrades, I think.

44:09SPEAKER_01:You know, so there's no doubt Cape Epic has changed a lot, or the EPS Epic, whatever they call it now. Cape Epic, yeah.

44:15SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So there's no doubt. You know, the the and it's also about for me, it's all again, it's all about discipline. The discipline of training, discipline of laying out your kit every night, eating properly, all these, and that works for me. And if I wasn't this disciplined, I would never be able to do that race properly.

44:33SPEAKER_02:Although it's any individual. Yeah, yeah. That does that for that.

44:35SPEAKER_00:But that's what I'm saying, yeah. So so there's that that sort of part of it. However, I think the most difficult thing is so the pros come in at about 12 o'clock. By the time you get in at 2 o'clock, whatever, they've had a little sleep, they've had their massage, they've washed, they were all, and they're now ready for the next day. Now you come in, and this was the the beginning of it, like sometimes like three, four o'clock in the afternoon. So you have a meal behind you, asleep behind you, you know, you've got to get your bike serviced, and there's no one looking after you.

45:03SPEAKER_00:Then you've got to do that eight times in a row. You've suffered. And you know, I think it's like comrades, it must be like comrades, where where you go through probably five different mood mood swings where fuck I'm feeling great. Jesus, I feel fuck, I gotta finish that. How the hell am I gonna get finished? You know, and then you you back up to the everyday is this mental road guys, it's a mental thing. Any endurance sport of that's I'm sorry, you know, any any of that kind of a push is is is a mental game.

45:37SPEAKER_00:And I like a mental game, you know, and and that's that's the strongest thing. If you can be mentally strong, you know, then you know it overrides everything else, it overrides your body, the way your body feels.

45:50SPEAKER_01:Well, David Goggins has has shown us that. I mean, he doesn't have cartridges in his knee. Yeah, and it's he's still running 200 kilometers or 240k 240 kilometers.

45:59SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.

46:01SPEAKER_01:So when that body is screaming, screaming to you, stop, stop, stop. What is the what is the conversation happening in your head? Give give me advice. No, there's no advice.

46:12SPEAKER_00:There's any, I mean, you know, you run comrades. You you you so the only advice that I can give to anybody like doing that kind of thing is you gotta take small bites. It's just the next point. Okay, the next water point's 30k's away. Um, what you forget is that there's a mountain between you and that 30k's and the water point, you know. So, so you know, you gotta you gotta then take small bites and say say to yourself. And there's nothing wrong with stopping, getting off the bike for five minutes, regrouping, eating properly.

46:37SPEAKER_00:The biggest thing with any of those endurance sports, and especially when you when you've got day after day, is your nutrition. You know, if you don't, if you're not eating properly on the bike um after you get off the bike, before you get on the bike, um it's virtually impossible impossible to do. So so the nutrition part for me is the is probably the hardest because you could you're literally force-feeding yourself 100 to 120 grams of carbs per hour, you know, it's a fucking lot of stuff to get down your throat, and uh and our body's just not used to it, and that's why that thing of gut training is a real thing.

47:11SPEAKER_00:Yeah, practicing by eating, uh you know, which is the hardest part in the training. Well, for me, yeah, yeah, it is.

47:18SPEAKER_01:Yeah, David. What is this suffering on the bike and pushing yourself to limits and harder and the limits that your body doesn't expect helped you in the kitchen? Has it taught you something?

47:34SPEAKER_00:I think it's vice versa.

47:35SPEAKER_01:You need both of those.

47:36SPEAKER_00:No, I think the kitchen is much harder than riding a bike. Much harder. You know, yes, there's reward and everything else, but that stress is is and that discipline that you have to have to uh to get through every day. But that's that that makes riding a dawdle. Um so what have I learned about I can't say there's much uh I I apply a lot of the kitchen to my riding, so the prep, you know, the laying out, the setting up, you know, so that the next morning is easy, it's exactly the same as our approach your job in the kitchen.

48:22SPEAKER_00:Okay, we've done our orders, we do our prep, now we have to, you know, now we serve, you know. So that process for me. Um from a head game point of view. Um I suppose it has taught me that losing your shit all the time is not gonna help. Um on the bike, you're out there on your own. At least in the kitchen, you've got a whole team, you've got to guide them, you gotta calm down, you've got to be the one that sort of sets the tone. Um, whereas on the bike, you know, you start shouting and screaming, what the fuck's the point?

48:51SPEAKER_00:You know, you're not gonna make it up there. No one coming to help you here, pal. Um so you've got to love a hardy dye.

48:59SPEAKER_01:Yeah, where's his hardy dye is coming from?

49:01SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, so so I guess I guess I I learnt a lot more in I I suffer a lot more in the kitchen than I do on the well, I used to, in the than I do on the bike, that's for sure.

49:13SPEAKER_01:I want to get on to okay. Well, before I get onto that, manifest does David Higgs sit down and manifest his life, the future?

49:24SPEAKER_00:Never manifested anything in my life.

49:26SPEAKER_01:Okay, you said something in the beginning of this podcast. You are turning 56 this year. I said, I'll be honest, and uh don't take this to the wrong way. I said my wife a photo of you and I said to her this morning, geez, I'm 43. It's like it's 55. I'm on age like this. What is the secret? And you've got a strengthful life.

49:57SPEAKER_00:I think it's the Namibian son, you know, that I uh Okay, but we're moving to Namibia. No, shit, I don't know, I don't know. I always tell people it's the olive oil there. No, it's I've just I suppose you're just lucky. But trust me, there's days where you feel 80, um, you know, and there's days where you feel 40, you know. The one thing that that I think that I've sort of accepted about, not accepted, but what I begin to realize for a lot of people, all of us sitting around the table, sometimes you sit here and you ages, it's a such a terrible cliche, ages but a number, but it but it truly is.

50:33SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, I don't like I don't know what 55 is supposed to feel like.

50:37SPEAKER_01:And 55 when our parents were 55 is not the R55. No, it's not our 40, whatever it is.

50:44SPEAKER_00:No, my daddy didn't make 55, you know, that kind of thing, you know. So so it's it it's a it's an interesting one, uh, but one you can't debate because fuck it is what it is, you know.

50:54SPEAKER_01:How's your relationship with exercise changed as you got older?

51:00SPEAKER_00:Become a lot more important. I'm the fittest I've ever been at 55.

51:04SPEAKER_01:Are you training for performance, longevity, uh mental health, all of them?

51:09SPEAKER_00:I think a bit of everything. Okay. Um, but specifically performance at the moment. Um, but I've definitely now, uh this last few months, um I've started stretching, which is something it's like yoga. I I can't get my head around it. But I can't tell you how much it's changed me. I stretch twice a day religiously. Um just cycling related stuff. We're not gonna carry it away.

51:33SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna I'm grinning here because someone told me last night um at an event that stretching is the new yeah, I don't know, the the new the new EPO or the new steroid or whatever.

51:44SPEAKER_00:No, it's it's wild, you know, and I uh and I know that my my hip flexors are my worst. And so I spend a lot of time doing that, and and it is it's changed. It's amazing how much power it brings you because we all ride with power meters now, you know, like it's quite advanced tech, you know. We can um yeah, anyway. So so are you a stats guy? I love a stat. I took you on a stats guy, not not obsessed, uh but and again, not something that I would post either, you know.

52:14SPEAKER_00:Um, but definitely something like and it's fucking I saw this great thing on Garmin. Uh it was a Garmin meme. Do you do you ever use Garmin? Yeah, yeah. So when it says unproductive and you completely fight, what the fuck do you mean it's unproductive? And this thing comes up and says unproductive.

52:34SPEAKER_01:The worst part to me, my first comrades in 2019 was an uprun. Um, and I got to pin a done is that done easier. So I think to be honest, I think it's a bullshit. Okay, it's a bullshit conversation to have. Okay. Up run's fuck hard. And you do the same elevation. The elevation is proposing it to myself. The down run for me is the reason why it's hard is because you smash all the most of that elevation in the first 60k. Yeah, and then you start getting that.

53:10SPEAKER_01:Um, but then motherfuckard. Like when someone brings up that conversation, they're like, shut up. Um 2019, and then got I I got to the finish line and I said, Man, my family's there. And next thing, stop moving. I had one of those garments that still told you when you should move. Start moving. I was like, just finish 90k. What do you mean stop moving or keep moving? Um, yeah. So, what does your exercise routine look like when you wake up?

53:41SPEAKER_00:So, um, I I ride during the week, uh, two hours every morning. Um, so generally the guys are riding at five, so they're up at about opposite four. It's a bit too early for me, especially when we have later nights in a restaurant. And one thing that I've really sort of began to appreciate and and really began to trust is my recovery. It's one of the hardest things for me, um, just because of the job. You you're on your feet all the time. So recovery for me is very important.

54:08SPEAKER_00:Eating has become very important, cutting down on the booze, which is difficult. Not that I'm an alcoholic, but I just I love a glass of wine with my food, you know, and I love a beer with the mates. And and you know, and I'm so glad you're saying that. You're making me feel good. Another friend didn't go get the rugby, you know, there's a place for everything. But but I've definitely cut that down and and uh and feeling a lot better for it, you know, it just is just is what it is, you know.

54:31SPEAKER_00:And also when you get to 55, my friend, wait for those hangovers. Like me, they hit different.

54:36SPEAKER_01:It takes three days to recover. I'm feeling you at 43.

54:42SPEAKER_00:So um so two hours every morning. Um Mondays, Monday's always off, two hours every morning, and then on weekends, three to four hours, a Saturday and a Sunday, you know, that's sort of sort of the training routine. And it's it's sort of two days of of um of intensity, of some sort of intensity, and then the rest are zone two rides, which we've also over the years become to understand how important those are. Again, it's all about active recovery and recovery and so forth, um, and and maintaining, and then two days a week, Jim.

55:10SPEAKER_00:And and that that really is brought on by um obviously, you know, the bones, you've got to keep those bones so weights are important, and you know, the that whole that whole story. And also just strengthen the bike, it does help. And yeah, so it's it's a 16-hour, 17, 18 hour week. Um, but you know, it's it's early in the morning, it's lacquer to clear your head before work, or it's in the afternoon, you know, from from three to five, pop out, and uh just to give myself a break from the day and then go back later, you know.

55:41SPEAKER_01:So, how do you catch up on that sleep that everyone is going, sleep, sleep, sleep is important? Seven hours sleep, eight hours sleep.

55:48SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I can I I force myself to do seven hours okay, and and sleep comes before the exercise. And you believe it's important, and your body will tell you, but we don't listen to our bodies, you know, because there's another cliche. We don't listen to your bodies, but it's true, we don't. Like you wake up in the morning, you're absolutely fucked, and and you just gotta uh you but we feel okay, we gotta go ride.

56:10SPEAKER_01:Uh anyway, your diet. Tell us how David Higgs eats because obviously, uh you're you know, being on the outside, amazing food at Marvel, the pantry has amazing food. Yeah, my one friend loves your bread, by the way. Uh no, I got told I mustn't call it bread. Furcutting. Sorry for the sharp, I called it bread.

56:36SPEAKER_00:Yeah, how does David eat? So generally, I mean, uh my business partner, Craig, is uh is one of the country's top uh sports diet performance dietitians. Correct, yes, performance nutritionist. And um, so obviously, over the last couple of years, you know, we chat, it gives me a program and everything else. But funny enough, being surrounded by food and everything else, and like these last two nights I've had this Mexican chef here from from uh from Mexico City, and and uh my whole routine is is gone.

57:09SPEAKER_00:You know, I'm absolutely knackered this morning. A few hours late into the into the evening. Well, you know, usually I'm fucking asleep by by 11. You know, now you're only getting home at 11, you know. Now, you know, so now that impacts. And then when you wake up, you're not so hungry, you know, because you haven't exercised properly, and then it has this this sort of effect. But in the perfect world, it's it's you know, um, I'm quite a creature of habit because I know what I'm taking in, and it's I try and cut out, like I said, the alcohol, I try and cut out on on if I see it's a slower week or a couple of rest days coming up or slower days, then I cut out on the on on the unnecessary um sort of unhealthy bits.

57:48SPEAKER_00:So lots of rice, lots of protein, um, specifically focusing on protein. Um and uh and then obviously when when the days get big, you gotta you gotta have those carbs, you know?

57:59SPEAKER_01:Uh carbs are important.

58:00SPEAKER_00:Carbs are king, yeah. Unfortunately, you can say what you want, but you ain't gonna get through it like you could if you're not eating the right amount of it.

58:06SPEAKER_01:Who doesn't love a carb? Don't talk shit. Exactly, exactly, exactly. Routine. Is that something that's important in life, not just in sport?

58:20SPEAKER_00:Yeah, very important. Very important to me. And again, the the the the the thing with our industry is that it's it's not sort of routine friendly friendly, you know, and there's always something coming up, there's events, there's functions, there's the the restaurants, you've got to get in early to do this. We so routine's great for about two weeks and then the routine goes. And the problem is when routine goes, your eating goes, your training goes, everything goes.

58:45SPEAKER_00:You know, it's not just uh it's not just you know it's just not your your it's just it's not one thing, it's a whole thing that that throws your kilt off, throws you off off kilt, yeah.

58:58SPEAKER_01:I want to quickly get into community because you've mentioned Craig a few times and your new venture, and you guys have created a cycling shop running and a community around that, and that community is growing.

59:11SPEAKER_00:Yeah.

59:13SPEAKER_01:How important is being around the right people and community to you?

59:18SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, we we can take that to the pantry. I mean, you look at Pantry Rosebank, and what what we've created there is just something quite quite incredible, and again, also with Uku now as well, just with like-minded people. Uh the pantry is different in that you get different times of the day, you get different people sort of coming in, you know, and maybe you're not as close to it as as something as focused as as an athletics um fundamental shop, you know.

59:43SPEAKER_00:Um but let's let's talk about Uku then uh because it is you know, we're talking the same language, we we have the same problems, we have the same challenges. Um so it's nice sometimes to hear that. And and then solutions to those, you know, is I guess that's all about communities there for the good times, there for the bad times, there for each other, um, sharing in the same things and introducing new th new people to our things, uh and and and vice versa, you know.

1:00:10SPEAKER_00:So yeah, it's it's um community is everything, really, yeah. Especially, especially when you when you are alone or not involved or whatever. So for me, it's very important. But I can choose when I go there.

1:00:27SPEAKER_01:I'll cycle alone there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get the peace before I get there. Okay, if you could change one thing about how South Africans eat, move, and look after themselves, what would it be?

1:00:43SPEAKER_00:Yup. You know, look at running you in this you in this sport. I can't believe how many people are are running and what what that sort of brought the DJs, the vibe, the the coffee culture, the flipping, I mean everything. And it's it's quite incredible because everybody's doing it, you know. It's like we we have this logo or this this motto that's all speeds are welcome. And it's like all shapes and sizes are doing it, all fitness levels are doing it, you know, everybody's out there doing it.

1:01:16SPEAKER_00:And I think it's a perfect example of how it can be because it's it's you know, you're relaxing, you're laughing, you know, the 5k uh what do you call these runs, these um park runs and stuff. Yes, I mean it I mean that was massive a while ago. Now that's morphed into all of these other things. Sports clubs and bench warmers and and this, that, and the other, you know. We've even even busy with with a few of the guys. So yeah, um, if there's one thing I I guess from an eating point of view, um but you know, like but the way you the way you behave through the day and the way you feel during the day is a lot driven by diet, you know.

1:02:00SPEAKER_00:Um and there's so many apps that can help you with that, or so many people that can help you with that. You know, if you're getting tired in the afternoon, you know, that's that's purely just eating because you're not you're not tired because you've you know you've only been awake for five hours, you know. Yes, you can be mentally exhausted and you know, there's there's other other things, but you're not you're not gonna be going to sleep. So watch what you're eating at lunch and how much you're eating, and you know, have an earlier dinner and you know, that kind of thing.

1:02:25SPEAKER_00:Just I think just the the moderation of eating and and the common sense almost of of of a meal, you know, um is is probably is that and then get involved with with a walk, with a run, with a cycle, with a there's so many, so many options. The gyms, the not that I hate a gym, but yeah, you know, a gym or whatever it is, you know, just uh just move. Just move, man. Yeah.

1:02:50SPEAKER_01:David, when people stop talking about the restaurants, the awards, and the I'm gonna call it a celebrity. I know you're not gonna like that. Nope. What do you hope they remember about the man David Higgs? Um the legacy.

1:03:09SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I don't know about legacy, but I think you know, like I think we all want to be be recognized as doing something positive for this incredible country we live in, you know. Um, like I said, I've never left here. I've never wanted to leave here. Yes, I want to go get myself a little spot in Spain, but I also want to get myself a little spot in the career, you know. Um but uh I think if anything I want people to always to know that there was no doubt that South Africa was always the first, the first at heart and the first at at mind, you know.

1:03:44SPEAKER_00:Um and if you look at downtown Joburg and and what Robbie Brosen and and his team um with Jo Josie Marjosy are doing, Jesus man, it's just quite incredible how how far they've come um in such a short space of time and in what's happening down Maine, um down Marshall, down all those streets with all those incredible buildings. And yeah, uh, you know, that's a massive passion. Joburg's a massive passion, I'm not even from here, but I fucking love the city, especially the old city.

1:04:14SPEAKER_01:I love that. Because I was going through a stage in my life where I was going, I want to leave Joburg, I want to leave Joburg, I want to go to Cape Town, I want to go to Cape Town. And I'll be honest, I went to Cape Town, not to move there, but I went there for a long weekend and it was a sober weekend. Yeah, and let me tell you, a sober weekend in Cape Town compared to a drunken weekend in Cape Town is different. You start realizing what Cape Town's about, and I was like, I want to stay in Joburg.

1:04:38SPEAKER_01:Yeah, for me, I won't get into those reasons. Cape Town, I'm not hating on you. I love you, but yeah, no, no, it's it's a fact, you know.

1:04:45SPEAKER_00:It's uh you know, you either yeah, it's we all want different things, and but it's just um I know that I'm happier.

1:04:52SPEAKER_01:Are you at peace with the life that you've lived so far?

1:04:56SPEAKER_00:Yeah, just I'm very blessed and very fortunate and made some stupid mistakes, made some stupid decisions, which I do regret. Um people get hurt. Um I've got hurt, uh doesn't make it right. Um, but you know, and I'm still making mistakes, you know. But uh as a whole, um to get back to you know, this country where I live, the people that I deal with every day, the um my role uh for them as a as a leader, you know. Um yes, I'm very I'm very happy with where I am.

1:05:35SPEAKER_00:Very f very very lucky to to be here for sure.

1:05:40SPEAKER_01:If you knew you had one more year of perfect health, what would you stop doing immediately? And what would you make sure you did before it was over?

1:05:54SPEAKER_00:One year. Oh yeah, I'd leave tomorrow, I'd fucking pack my bike. And uh I would take a ride to the Pyrenees, the Alpes. Um wanna go to Japan to eat in Japan. Um wanna go to South America, I've never been to South America, I don't want to go ride my bike there. Yeah. All those things that I that I haven't done. There's no there's no not even a question. That's what I would do.

1:06:28SPEAKER_01:Thank you.

1:06:29SPEAKER_00:Where are