Teach your children well

0:04SPEAKER_00:Welcome to Finding Our Why, a new podcast by the Jewish Independent. I'tetai Flesher joining you from Jerusalem.

0:11SPEAKER_03:And I'm Courtney Winter Peters, joining you from the Gold Coast.

0:15SPEAKER_00:We both grew up in Melbourne with the sweet memories of uh Corfield Park, seeing the ducks on a lazy Shabbat afternoon, and maybe even enjoying a coffee at the wall on a Sunday morning.

0:26SPEAKER_03:But our journeys have taken us in very different directions.

0:29SPEAKER_00:Yep, we find ourselves asking the same question.

0:32SPEAKER_03:At a time when so many conversations in the Jewish world are focused on anti-Semitism, security, and survival, we find ourselves looking for deeper meaning and grounding.

0:41SPEAKER_00:For the rituals, stories, values, and traditions that have sustained Jewish life for generations.

0:46SPEAKER_03:Not just what we're fighting against, but what we're living for.

0:50SPEAKER_00:Welcome to Finding Our Why.

1:00SPEAKER_03:Hello listeners and welcome back to Finding Our Why. Thank you all so much for your feedback over the last few weeks. We got a lot of requests for Itai's wonderful Shabbat Spotify playlist, so we're going to include a copy of that in the show notes to this week's episode. Welcome back, Itai, for episode three. Nice to see you again.

1:22SPEAKER_00:Thanks. It's good to be back. I'm excited for this one.

1:25SPEAKER_03:And welcome back to our listeners, or welcome to new listeners. Today we're going to be exploring our next why topic, why learn, which is a subject close to both of our hearts. Both of us have been engaged in informal education. Itai, you are still very engaged. You're an educator. So I'm really looking forward to this deep dive into the role learning and education plays in our search for why and our Jewish identity.

1:53SPEAKER_00:So, yeah, I wanted to begin with a question for you, Courtney, because I know even though you haven't specifically worked in education, you're obviously the head of an organization that educated thousands of Jews through stand-up. In what way has Jewish learning helped you find your why?

2:11SPEAKER_03:I think my understanding of Judaism has come, it started at a Jewish school. I think I was really lucky to be able to go to a Jewish day school. I went to the same school my whole life and I learned language, I learned history. But I think the biggest thing that stood out to me was, you know, the strongest memories, the most passionate memories for me are those lessons around culture, particularly around Khagim and how we would have a space where we could all come together and celebrate, you know, all dress up for Purim, being blue and white for your matsmawut.

2:49SPEAKER_03:These are the really strong memories where we were in crowds of people at the same school all singing together.

2:55SPEAKER_00:It's funny that you mention like Purim or Yomatzmawut, because I I often, you know, when I was an educator in a Jewish day school, kids would remember the festivals by not what they were about, by what we ate. So, you know, I would say, who can tell me the difference between shovel wat and simcha torah? And people go, I think shovel wat is the cheesecake one and simchat Torah is the waving the flag one. You know, after a while that's all they remember.

3:22SPEAKER_00:So often it's it's even interesting now, you know, 30 years after you finish school, that that's still what sits in your memory.

3:30SPEAKER_03:Yeah, food is definitely a big part of it, but I think what sits in my memory, there's the music side, but it was, and I say this as someone who loves a theme dressing, it was what we would wear. I put a lot of effort into Prim, I put a lot of effort into Yom Hatsmawood. These are the things that stayed with me. And yes, I loved learning Hebrew and Jewish studies, and I loved all of those subjects, but I felt in those subjects you had really differing levels of like engagement across the year level.

3:58SPEAKER_03:But when it came to the Khagim and the assemblies and whatever they were, it really brought everyone together. And they will forever be the most joyful memories I hold when I think about Jewish learning. But I think it's been a bit of a journey, and I know we'll get into this. That's the school side. And I guess now what I'm really looking forward to in today's conversation is why learn and what that looks like across a lifespan and where we're at now.

4:26SPEAKER_03:And a question I want to ask you, Itai, is you're an educator, you're a teacher. You you also went to a Jewish day school, but then you made a conscious decision to go back and teach in Jewish day schools and to teach Jewish studies. So what inspired you to do that?

4:41SPEAKER_00:So, yeah, I didn't intend to be a teacher. It's actually not what I studied at university. My degree from Deacon is actually a Bachelor of Applied Science in sports coaching. My lecturer was David Parkin, you know, the former Carlton coach. Fun fact about me there. Yeah, and I wanted to be a sports coach initially when I finished school. It's a degree that doesn't exist anymore, so it clearly wasn't uh that viable. Yeah, but after doing that for three years, because I was uh I was a Madruchan Hinaini at the time, and I thought I really like working with kids, and it's fun and it's creative, and and then so I did a second uh degree, which was uh what led me to be a secondary school teacher initially in in physical education and Hebrew, and then later on I taught many other subjects and in in many other schools from Adas to King David and the Oakley Greek Orthodox College and everything in between.

5:33SPEAKER_03:Last week you spoke a little bit about different teaching methods. So when we were discussing the why joy, but I'm really interested, firstly, that journey from sports coaching to where you are now is fascinating. But of all the subjects you could teach, why did you choose Jewish studies?

5:51SPEAKER_00:And I think when I came to Jewish studies and I started, especially in informal education, I noticed that Jewish studies was taught in a different way from every other subject on the curriculum. So when we taught at the schools I were at science or mathematics, there was like information and it was transmitted and the students had to remember it and then you know cough it out on an exam. And when we were teaching Jewish studies, at least the way I taught it in the schools where I was at, it was always like a personal thing.

6:22SPEAKER_00:It was like how did it affect your life? So we were never just giving information about Hanukkah or Purim or a Pesach et cetera. It was always about what are you going to do with this information? How is this gonna reflect what you think about freedom? And I remember at a in when I was a beginning teacher, I'd watch other teachers. So I remember I was sitting in a science class, and science is like something I know very little about, and the teacher was like going over the periodic table that the kids had to remember.

6:51SPEAKER_00:And she said there's lithium and beryllium and all of these sorts of things. But there was, she never like then got the kids to let's have a mock play where lithium and beryllium debate each other about like who's the more powerful element. Or when I was like learning algebra, like I was fine with maths until they dropped the numbers and put in X and Y, and I got totally lost. But I never like my teacher never said, Okay, let's all pretend to be you U B X and U B Y and let's work out who is greater, you know.

7:21SPEAKER_00:Like, it was just like all these numbers and multiple rows of working out, and I got totally lost. But whenever came like to Jewish studies, or we were learning about the first Zionist Congress, it wasn't just like should the Jewish state be in Palestine or Uganda, it was like you be Max Nordau and you be Chaim Weitzman, and like we all got dressed up and we had a debate, and there was just something about the way Jewish studies was taught that was like real and personal and was about my emotions, and it wasn't just a series of facts, and then I was like, I want to be involved in that and not in the sort of Matt's English and science, which I just felt wasn't speaking to my soul, it was just into my head.

8:03SPEAKER_03:You said something really interesting there, and you know, and I'm not just talking about your reference to using science as a debating mechanism and maybe as someone who studied law, that also would have made me more interested in science. But you you spoke about like not just the teaching method, but what Jewish studies actually gives us. That really sat with me because it just made me think that you know, face value when you look at a Jewish day school, yes, they're a private school.

8:30SPEAKER_03:I feel very, very fortunate to have gone to one my whole life, and I acknowledge that on a regular basis. Yes, there's the academic side that comes with it, you know. Often the schools do really well, but I actually look at my memories from it, and what really stayed with me is the identity, the community, and the culture and language. Like, yeah, yes, the language, and I'm really proud that I can read Hebrew, but it's it's that grounding and that connection to other people.

9:01SPEAKER_03:Like I look around even at my friendship group now, and a lot of them are still from the school I went to, and maybe that would have been the case no matter what school I went to, but I think there's something different having that shared connection to history and culture that keeps us bound together.

9:17SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think definitely, like again, if I compare it to other subjects, you know, when we studied, I don't know, the Great Gatsby or Shakespeare, I didn't leave feeling like I was a character in Shakespeare and wanting to call my friends Romeo and Juliet or Macbeth or those sorts of things. None of those classes formed a community identity or connected me with the characters, but I definitely think Jewish education, whether it's in a school or in a youth group or on a summer camp or however else you want to consume it, it does something that it bonds you to the other people that you're learning with in a way that I haven't felt with other subjects.

9:53SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think look, I think I just want to take a moment to just acknowledge you two and I, too, we're very specific people. We have connected through our shared how we resonate with Judaism, connection to organizations we've be both been involved in. I also acknowledge that there are plenty of people that have gone to Jewish day schools and potentially finish up at the end and don't feel so connected to community and culture as you and I have. And at the same time, there's also people that don't go to a Jewish day school that also feel just as connected to community and culture.

10:27SPEAKER_03:And I bring that up because I think there are lots of ways to look at what learning is and where learning comes from in terms of my own personal journey, where I'm at at the moment. I'm sitting here and I'm I'm raving about everything that you know Jewish day school gave to me. But, and I know I've touched on this a lot, but I've made the decision to take my kids away from a Jewish day school and they're at a public school now, where there's not much connection to culture and language around them.

10:58SPEAKER_03:So, you know, that's something you and I have discussed quite a bit. But I also think, you know, what are some of the reasons that people might not send their kids to a Jewish day school? I think there's like a balance here and what that looks like, and then that flows into a question of well, why learn and how what that looks like elsewhere?

11:16SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so obviously the major factor in Australia is the cost, you know, Jewish schools are obviously far, far more expensive than public schools. So that that's a huge issue for many people. Beyond that, there's the cultural aspects of being, you know, there's certain cultural things that happen in in Jewish schools that people might not want their kids to acquire. There's the location of where those schools are, you know, if they're near or far to where people live.

11:46SPEAKER_00:And if the school is not in the neighborhood where you live, then it detaches you from your neighborhood, and going to a school where everyone is in that neighborhood is also sometimes really special. So, yeah, I'm definitely not an advocate of everyone going to a private school. I think there's so many ways for people to learn, and I think now also we've got so many tools that we never had before, from AI to books and movies, and even on Instagram, like there's so many ways to find meaningful Jewish learning, and then there's adult programs, Limud and Tikunlal Shavuot, and you know, all of those sorts of things.

12:25SPEAKER_00:So, yeah, I don't think education needs to come from a school, but I do think, I mean, you touched on Hebrew, I do think that literacy is really, really important because to engage, you know, coming back to when I was a sports teacher, you know, I remember kids saying, Well, why do I need to know how to bounce a ball or shoot a three-pointer or whatever? And I said, I'm teaching you building blocks to play sport. And if you don't know how to jump, run, hit, swim, you know, basic things, you can't play volleyball, you can't go swimming, you can't play tennis, you know, on a holiday, whatever.

13:00SPEAKER_00:Once you have the basic building blocks, then there's a million things you can do. You know, I and a lot of people now, well, they want to exercise, but they can't go to the gym because they don't have even the basic skills that you need to go to to the gym. And so, in the same way that giving kids basic motor skills gives them the ability to enjoy sport for their whole lives, even not on a professional level, just on a social level, I think Jewish literacy is essential because once you know things like the Hebrew letters, the Hagim, the Jewish life cycle, a basic family tree of the Tanakh, then you can engage in Jewish learning, you can engage, you can go on a trip to Israel or whatever it is, but without those basic building blocks, then a whole lot of windows are closed to you.

13:45SPEAKER_03:I want to ask you another question. So you mentioned learning on Instagram. I saw a clip on Instagram, and I wish I could remember whose podcast it was on, and I apologize in advance. You know, lesson number one as a former lawyer, you should always have your references. So I apologize.

14:02SPEAKER_00:It's not the Royal Commission, it's okay.

14:06SPEAKER_03:But the clip that I saw was someone saying that Jewish schools are really important for kids to have Jewish connection, to have that community. And it really struck me because again, there's that guilt of with everything going on in the world, is now the time to remove myself from community. And what does that mean? And how do you how do you build those strengths and those ties? Do I even agree with that statement? I, you know, I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

14:41SPEAKER_00:Look, I mean, I know you were telling me you sent your kids to Havo camp this week. And sometimes on a on a week or a 10-day camp, there's a communal atmosphere and connection and memory that is more powerful than a whole year of a day school. And I've seen the power of a summer camp. So I don't necessarily think you know, going to a synagogue as well, doing a Kabala Chabat once a week. Like there's so many other ways to build community, both for children and adults, that doesn't have to be a former schooling environment.

15:12SPEAKER_00:So I don't think necessarily that there's only one way to get that.

15:16SPEAKER_03:I really appreciate that perspective, and it definitely does a little bit to ease some of my own personal guilt. But I don't think it completely resolves the question for me. One thing I struggle with when I hear people say, Oh, if you want your children to have Jewish friends and a strong Jewish identity, they need to go to a Jewish day school, is that it can make the decision sound like a really obvious choice. And it doesn't acknowledge why some parents make different choices, hard choices.

15:45SPEAKER_03:You've already mentioned costs as one of the big prohibitors, and that's a huge part of it for some families. But for us, you know, I'm really aware that we've made a choice to move away from a Jewish day school to a public school, away from community. And for us, it was about wanting our kids to grow up genuinely knowing people from different backgrounds and cultures. So I find it hard to hear that, you know, that this is the way that kids, Jewish kids should be.

16:12SPEAKER_03:For us, it was also about like challenging ourselves and being outside our comfort zone. And I agree with you, you're absolutely right that youth movements become really important. They're one of the great strengths of Jewish life. They create friendships and leadership and a deep sense of belonging. And I look at some of my friendships now, you know, they are created from being in a Jewish youth movement. And also like looking at the two of us, the fact that we both ended up building careers around Jewish informal education probably says something about how powerful those experiences can be.

16:44SPEAKER_03:But I still have this tension sitting with me that I'm sitting here talking about all the wonderful experiences I had at Jewish Day School and Jewish youth movements. But at a time of rising anti-Semitism, I moved away from community. And, you know, am I a bit of a walking contradiction? I don't know if there's a right answer, but I know that this battle I have around living in two worlds, you know, as an Australian Jew, is becoming more and more challenging in a world of rising anti-Semitism.

17:22SPEAKER_00:I just want to continue on from the last point you said about anti-Semitism because it's obviously something that is very present in many educational spaces about how do we deal with the rise in anti-Semitism, not just in Australia, but also obviously where I live in Israel, there's a lot of people that are questioning what kind of Jewish identity should we have going forward. And I was recently listening to a conference at the AJC, the American Jewish Committee, and uh a journalist in Jerusalem, Maddie Friedman, who happens to live in the in the same neighborhood as me, was asked an interesting question, which was if you had unlimited funds to fix anti-Semitism, what would you do?

18:08SPEAKER_00:And he gave a very interesting answer. It's about three minutes. I'm going to play it for you now. And then I'd love to talk to you about what they say. And especially as an Australian Jew, given what you've lived through in the last few years, I'm interested to know how his suggestion lands with you. Does it feel sensitive, insensitive? Do you feel like he sees you or he doesn't understand what's going on? But let's hear it and then we'll have a chat about it.

18:31SPEAKER_01:I think that the fight can't be won. I think that anti-Semitism can't be defeated. And I think that resources that are poured into it are resources wasted. And of course, I think that people need legal protection and they need, you know, lawyers who can protect people from discrimination and from defamation. That's very important. But I know that when people are presented with a problem like anti-Semitism, which is so disturbing and it's really rocking the worlds of everyone in this room, and certainly, you know, children and grandchildren, you have a problem and you want to address it, right?

19:04SPEAKER_01:You have a really bad rash on your arm, you want the rash to go away, and you're willing to do almost anything to make it go away. This has always been with us. It's always been with us. And, you know, we recently celebrated the seder, and we read in the seder in the haggadah, Bekol Dorvador, on dimalenu, l'halotenu. Which is a in every generation, they come at us to destroy us. And it's an incredibly depressing worldview. Okay. It's not the way I wanted to see the world when I grew up in Toronto in the 1990s, but in our tradition, we have this idea that this is always going to be around.

19:37SPEAKER_01:And the question is, what do you do? Do you let other people define you? Do you make your identity the fight against the people who hate you? And I think that's a dead end. Um, the the this crisis is hitting the Jewish people at a moment when many of us don't know who we are. And I think that's why it's hitting so hard. For my grandfather, who was a standard New York Jew, garment industry, lower east side, poor union guy, um, this would not have shaken him because he just assumed that this was the world.

20:05SPEAKER_01:Like this would, you know, he had his own thing. The term Jewish identity was not one he ever heard because it was just that was him. Like it wasn't, it wasn't an issue or something that had to be taught. So if I had unlimited resources, what I would do is I would make sure that young Jewish people have access to the riches of Jewish civilization. I would, you know, institute a program that would allow any young Jewish person to be fluent in Hebrew by the time they finish college.

20:29SPEAKER_01:Why is that so important? Why is that such an amazing key? Because if you're fluent in Hebrew, you can open a Tanakh, or you can open a prayer book if you want, or you can watch Fauda, or you can get on a plane to Israel and hit on Israeli guys, or you can watch an Israeli, like Hebrew is the key to Jewish life. And if you have it, a whole world will open up. And it's not one that anti-Semites can interfere with. It does not depend on the goodwill of our neighbors.

20:54SPEAKER_01:It's all about us and what we're doing with ourselves. And I think that if you're rooted in Jewish tradition, and I'm not saying becoming religious, I'm just saying diving into the riches of Jewish tradition, whether it's history or Gomorrah or Israel or whatever, if you're deep in there enough, then the other stuff doesn't go away, but it becomes less important. It won't be solved because it can't be solved, but it will fade into the background.

21:16SPEAKER_01:And if we make the center of identity the fight against anti-Semitism, they've won.

21:21SPEAKER_00:Okay. So interesting idea there. Maddie Friedman later on there goes on to suggest even that Jewish organizations should stop funding organizations that fight anti-Semitism, like the ADL. Brett Stevens also said something similar as well, and saying all of the resources that have been devoted to, you know, advocacy for Jewish rights or for Israel, that sort of thing, should be instead poured into Jewish learning, Jewish literacy, that sort of thing.

21:49SPEAKER_00:I know it's not an either or, but I guess in both these talks that sort of comes up. How do you feel about that idea?

21:56SPEAKER_03:When he said it's a fight that can't be won, was this like sense of hopelessness?

22:00SPEAKER_00:Yes.

22:01SPEAKER_03:And I've got to say, I have moments where I do feel that. And I just feel like, what's the point? And I think we discussed it last week when we spoke about the balance between the trauma and the joy. And I'm really trying hard not to say oil versus joy. I think there needs to be a balance. And I think it's really hard to say, turn away from supporting the fight against anti-Semitism. I think there is language around that that would benefit all of us.

22:30SPEAKER_03:But I think, you know, another thing that came up, and this is resonating across the theme of our podcast again, is shifting from focusing on our previous trauma to our joy. And I think I said at the end of last week's episode, you know, it really does feel like the harder decision to shift to that focus on joy that let's invest more in learning Hebrew, learning cultural arts festivals, you know, it feels hard. It feels counterintuitive. Why does it have to be an either-or?

23:01SPEAKER_00:Because there's limited resources. Like let's say I'm planning an event in a diaspora Jewish community, and I've got three choices of what I can do. One is how to advocate for Israel. The second is how to combat anti-Semitism. And the third is intro to Talmud. Which is going to get more people?

23:23SPEAKER_03:Not the intro to Talmud.

23:24SPEAKER_00:Not the intro to Talmud, right? If the intro to Talmud gets a minion, like you're doing well. And so why does everyone want to go to the session on the advocating for Israel or fighting anti-Semitism or letter writing to the newspaper or advocacy or some sort of training like that is because people feel like there's a desperate need that I have to respond to, you know, this thing I saw on the internet or this statement that happened or the attack on my synagogue.

23:50SPEAKER_00:And so we want to learn a strategy to do that. What I think Maddie Friedman and Brett Stevens are saying is what you actually need to be doing is going to the Intro to Talmud or to the Yehuda Amichai poetry workshop or to the session on the music of Idan Reichel and Yeshai Ribo. Because when you go to those workshops instead, it's not that the anti-Semitism will go away, but the anti-Semites can't take that away from you. And once you have that in your soul, that idea of the literacy and the culture and the heritage and the literature and the art that our people have produced so creatively and so in abundance, you can control that.

24:29SPEAKER_00:You can control whether you are connected to that, whether you're connected to that learning you do at Tikunel Shavot. You can't control whether there's another swastiker on a synagogue or whatever else is happening around you. That's obviously the police should deal with that. And that is a question, I think, for wider society to deal with. But when all Jewish energy is focused on, like even on social media, like I often find, you know, whenever there's God forbid, there's a there's there's an anti-Semitic attack on someone in Barcelona, let's say, wasn't let into a spa because they were wearing Magendavid, that's going to be all over my feed.

25:07SPEAKER_00:Like everyone is sharing some uh a Jew today had their rights, you know, diminished or something. Everyone should see that. But when I see like a great Jewish painting or a new sort of Jewish innovation in Jewish learning or or literature, it never goes as viral as anti-Semitism. And again, I know it goes back to to Jewish oi or joy, but like I really think that I don't want to be doing PR for anti-Semites on my social media. I don't want to be sharing all of the horrible things that happen to my people on a daily basis.

25:39SPEAKER_00:I always want to use my my social media and my voice to either show what is that's beautiful or imagine what can't be. And to me, that promotes a far sort of healthier Jewish identity.

25:51SPEAKER_03:I I definitely hear you and it resonates with me. And I know in my own journey I've found that I'm on the search for places like as an adult, where can I engage in learning? How can I focus on my why and where do I find that grounding and what does that look like? But what I will say is that I don't think you can, I'm gonna push back on the like completely avoiding the fight against anti-Semitism because we have we can't think in like the extremes.

26:20SPEAKER_03:We've got to think about like there are the people in the middle that want to engage, that want to learn. But I think they go hand in hand. And I think we have to know what we're fighting for. So it takes the conversation from let me yell at you about anti-Semitism to say, let me start here and let me talk about what it is about being Jewish that really resonates with me. And then you get to that point of saying, and this is why your words and comments might impact me.

26:49SPEAKER_03:And I say this as someone who was like trying to get funding for work that wasn't specifically about anti-Semitism. So it's really hard, and it's really hard to find that balance, and there's bigger conversations to be had around like in community Jewish communities across the world, around how funding should work and how it can work together. And that does happen in different degrees. But I think for me, there still has to be that language around anti-Semitism, but there has to be a grounding in sense of self first.

27:21SPEAKER_00:Do you feel though, sometimes, you know, like what you put your energy or your thought towards is often how you feel. So if I'm all day thinking about some horrible thing that someone wrote to me on the internet, which happens to me often, unfortunately, or some sort of tragedy that happened to a Jew in Spain or Barcelona or Germany or something like that, then I'm gonna feel all the time like anxious and worried and upset. And, you know, I'm maybe I won't even go to a synagogue because I'm I think it's now a dangerous place.

27:57SPEAKER_00:And I feel like I want to acknowledge that those things exist, but I don't want them to take up all of my headspace. And so sometimes I feel like I maybe have to overcorrect to the other side because I want my headspace to have place for a Jewish identity or even a connection to the humans that live in Jerusalem with with all our complexity beyond the conflict. I want to connect to someone celebrating a birthday or a wedding or a graduation or uh, you know, that they had a book published, or I I want to like not focus every conversation on the bad things that are happening to my people at the moment or that are happening to Palestinians around me.

28:45SPEAKER_00:So I I feel like also I share stories of of Palestinians experiencing joy as well, because I think that's also important for how I want to present their identity as well, because their life also isn't just suffering. And I think all people are complicated. And when you see a people just as their victimhood or their suffering, you don't that dehumanizes them. And I think the beauty of Jewish education, even if you went to that intro to Talmud class, you know, the Talmud has no shortage of Jewish suffering in it, but it also has like so many thoughts and ideas of how to cope with that, of different strategies and and prayers and poetry and like midrashim, which are like, you know, sort of ancient stories with fables in them that are just so are so beautiful.

29:34SPEAKER_00:And like I kind of miss that from our discourse, you know, even like rabbis that I follow that that used to share divre Torah and used to share, you know, thoughts on Jewish ideas, you know, all of their social media feeds are now, you know, Israel advocacy stuff about the Royal Commission. And I I kind of I miss the Torah learning. Like I when I go to a to a rabbi or to a Jewish educator, I don't necessarily want to hear about like another sort of testimony of a Jewish suffering or or one of their congregants.

30:09SPEAKER_00:Like I think there's a space for that, but when that becomes the entirety of the Jewish conversation, then we've lost something. And I think our tradition is so kind of rich and beautiful. I don't want to let that go because we're being hated at the moment.

30:25SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean, like we're absolutely governed by fear right now. And maybe the question isn't why learn? Maybe the question is how do we learn? Because maybe the uphill battle is like something like Talmud, it's not sexy, you know, on its face value. You and I have engaged in it and learnt about it, and we know that there's a richness and there's there's so much to learn for even like modern day life from Jewish stories, but how do we make that shift?

31:00SPEAKER_03:You know, even in reflecting on my memories from school, I wasn't sitting here saying I loved my Hebrew lessons or my Tanakh lessons. I have great memories from them, but it was the singing, the dancing, the culture. So, how, particularly as adults, like how do you get adults to come back to learning? For me, I'll I'll give one example that's inspired me. You know, I always felt as a female learning about Tanakh Talmud, like wasn't for me. There wasn't a space for me.

31:34SPEAKER_03:It wasn't, these are not texts from a Jewish voice. And I've been really grateful over the last few years to notice there are actually so many places in Melbourne, but also particularly around the world, that are engaging in a more inclusive style of learning. And that has appealed to me. So, for example, in Melbourne, there's the Bait Me Drash, and that is an inclusive approach to learning. You don't have to have former understanding. It doesn't matter how you identify, but you can engage and it's it's a way in, right?

32:05SPEAKER_03:And it's accessible. And maybe for people like me, the learning hasn't felt accessible post-school.

32:13SPEAKER_00:Look, shout out to Baby Mudrash Oz. I'm also a big fan of theirs. And I think definitely, and a shame to admit, a fellow uh podcast on TJI, they also really do a great job in making Jewish learning, you know, accessible to Australian Jews. So we really appreciate that all those things exist.

32:31SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's right. And I just want to say that that like what we're seeing now is that there's a lot more diversity, but how do we get people in there? Like more diversity now than there was 20 years ago when we were finishing school.

32:43SPEAKER_00:No, that's uh that's definitely very true.

32:54SPEAKER_03:Following on from our what we were just saying, we were talking about the how we learn, and one of the things you mentioned was Talmud, and I realized, well, I haven't learned much Talmud because I never felt it was easily accessible. So, Itai, I was hoping that you might have some learning to share.

33:13SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I thought we we would end this podcast by just learning a little bit together. This is one of my favorite from the Talmud or from the Mishnah, which is a collection of statements from rabbis in a book called Pirkeavot. And this was written at a time of crisis for the Jewish people, actually. It was written just after the destruction of the first temple in the year 70 CE, where Jewish life was centered around animal sacrifices in Jerusalem.

33:39SPEAKER_00:And there was a question of what would Judaism sort of look like now that we don't have a temple anymore and now that we're outside of our homeland, you know, many Jews were exiled or left to Babylon and to Rome and to other places. And there was a rabbi at the time named uh Shimon benzoma, and he had four questions or four ideas about how Jewish life is going to thrive in the diaspora. And the first question that he he would ask is who is wise? Now, what do you think is the traditional answer to who is wise?

34:11SPEAKER_02:Old people.

34:15SPEAKER_00:In our society, like in in you know, in the modern Western world, what do you consider a smart person? Yeah, educated, I don't know, maybe a lot of degrees, uh, you know, a doctorate, something like that. And so he says something really interesting. He says, Ezehu Khacham, halumed mikoladam, who is wise, one who can learn from every person. It's a pretty radical idea, you know, to say that in the first century as well, because he's saying wisdom isn't just about how much you know, it's about how much you're willing to learn from other people.

34:49SPEAKER_03:I love Jewish learning. What I love about that is there's a lesson right there. You know, you you and I touched on anti-Semitism and how to battle anti-Semitism. And I would say the first step is being able to have a conversation, to be able to learn from each other, and it works both ways, and it's right there in our learnings.

35:06SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I look at it as I'll say as a dialogue facilitator, I regular facilitate and I meet people with diametrically opposed political, religious views to me, and I've never not learned from someone I disagree with because I understand through talking to them, I understand why they come to hold the views that they do and the life experiences they had that led them to be, you know, in a very difficult political camp for me. And it makes me reflect on my own biases and my own maybe blind spots that I have about seeing the world.

35:38SPEAKER_00:So I think I mean for me, the azehuchaamalumedam is such a like important life lesson, only second to the second question that Shimon Benzoma asks, which is Ezehugiball, who is strong, who is mighty. Now, what do you think the traditional answer to that question would be?

35:57SPEAKER_03:I'm not giving the answers I believe in, but the traditional answer is just someone who works out and is strong and has muscles and can lift something heavy.

36:05SPEAKER_00:Yeah, with all the protein powder and peptides. Peptides and whatever. Yeah. So we often think strong and mighty is like, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger, buff, you know, wrestler type, whatever. And um, and again, he gives a really fascinating answer. He says, Ezehugibo Hakovesha Chitzro, who is strong, someone that can subdue their negative inclination, meaning someone that like wants to punch someone in the face and then pulls their hand back at the last minute and says, No, I'm not going to do that, says that is bravery.

36:39SPEAKER_00:Now, that is a very, very different idea of strength or bravery than uh I think many people would think of that word.

36:47SPEAKER_03:Yeah, there's the physical part, but then there's also the who can not shout, who can listen, who can respond with compassion and empathy, you know, that's also holding yourself back.

36:58SPEAKER_00:And Shimon Benzoma's saying that actually responding with empathy takes more strength and courage than responding with violence or might. Pretty amazing thing to say after your temple's being destroyed. So the next one, okay, this is a no-brainer, but Shimon Benzo, the third question you ask is Ezerhuashir, who is rich? Now we haven't really talked about money so far on this podcast, but for many, many people around the world, what does rich mean?

37:26SPEAKER_02:Cash.

37:28SPEAKER_00:Cash, credit cards, cars, houses, holidays, you know, and Australia is obviously a far wealthier country than than Jerusalem, so you probably see it all around you. What's your relationship to what you call someone rich?

37:47SPEAKER_03:In that very basic definition, or when you think of someone rich in Australia, who do you think of? Gina Reinhardt.

37:55unknown:Yeah.

37:55SPEAKER_03:Or do you mean like a specific like a a trait?

37:58SPEAKER_00:Well, no, but in like people you know, like what would make you call a person rich?

38:03SPEAKER_03:You're thinking about someone with lots of cash, you're thinking about someone with lots of assets, lots of things to show for it as well, like big house, nice clothes, nice car. And I think from a very basic definition, maybe not accessible.

38:16SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Like to be honest, I've always wanted to be rich. Maybe I shouldn't have gone into education, but like I think there's very few people that don't desire at some point to have wealth and to have, you know, the ability to travel and do whatever you like. Sometimes when my wife and I, if we like going for a walk and we want to talk about, we we have this fun conversation where we're like, imagine you won, you know, Tatselotto tomorrow and you had two million dollars.

38:41SPEAKER_00:Like, what would you do with it? And then we like imagine all of the fun adventures we had, and it's fun to do. It's exciting, it's titillating. Like this notion that this thing I work so hard for, which is money, I just have an abundance of it. Like, wouldn't that be fantastic?

38:55SPEAKER_02:But I'm guessing that's not the lesson.

38:58SPEAKER_00:But do you know what Shimon Benzoma says? He says, Who is rich? Someone that is happy with what they have. And again, it's it really it turns around my whole head about what wealth is, because he's saying wealth isn't the car or the house or the furniture or the holiday that you have. Wealth is something in your heart that if you're happy with what you have, whether it's very little or a lot, that is true wealth, the idea of being just grateful for whatever you have in your life.

39:31SPEAKER_00:And that's you know, much easier said when you're wealthy than when you're poor, but it's such a profound teaching.

39:37SPEAKER_03:It's beautiful and it makes you think, it makes you it makes you reconsider initial reactions.

39:51SPEAKER_00:And the last one that he says is about respect. So you're a lawyer, and whenever a judge, you know, walks in the room, what do you call the judge?

40:02SPEAKER_02:Your Honor.

40:03SPEAKER_00:Now, is there anyone else in life that you call Your Honor?

40:07SPEAKER_02:In my life? No.

40:08SPEAKER_00:Yeah.

40:09unknown:No.

40:09SPEAKER_00:Why not? Why don't why don't you call other people Your Honor or Sir or any other title?

40:14SPEAKER_03:I don't I well my initial reaction was to say they haven't earned it, but there's no rules around it really.

40:19SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Right. So there's a convention that that a judge is, because of their training and their wisdom, has this title of your honour. Sometimes members members of parliament also have, you know, respected chair or, you know, that there's an honourable member, you know, things like this. But what Shimon Benzoma says, which is interesting about who do you honour, who do you respect, he says Ezra U Mechubad, who is respected, a m chabed abriot, someone that respects others.

40:47SPEAKER_00:So again, it's saying respect isn't the degree you have or being the judge or the member of parliament or the prime minister or something like that. It's the ability to show respect to other people. And a person that can show honour to all of the people around them, no matter what their views, that is the most sort of elevated and respectable person in our society. How does that land with you?

41:12SPEAKER_03:Well, it's still saying you have to earn it, but it is earned for a very different reason.

41:17SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's almost like you earn it through your character traits, not through your degrees.

41:23SPEAKER_03:It's a each four of those come back to what I love about Jewish learning. It gives us reasons to stop and think. And yes, there will be times when we argue and debate, but that's also the beauty of Judaism, right? We like to joke about you know three Jews, 1200 opinions. That comes from the learning. And, you know, yes, you and I agree on each of those points and are very touched by them, but just the fact that it's made us stop and focus and think and take a breath and reconsider the people around us and how we might engage with them.

42:03SPEAKER_03:And these are lessons from a long time ago, 2002. You know, the world is a completely different place, but these are lessons that can sit with all of us today. Just before we wrap up episode three on why learn, Itai, I want to ask you for your final reflections, why learn?

42:28SPEAKER_00:I really enjoyed learning with you. I want you to teach me something next week. And, you know, I enjoyed this conversation. I feel both respected and honored, but I also feel rich that this is something that I get to do as a job, to have these conversations with you.

42:46SPEAKER_03:I also really loved learning from you. As I said, it calmed my nervous system to actually engage in texts and lessons from a long time ago. But also reflecting on all that what we've been saying, you know, the reasons to go to a Jewish gay school or to engage in a youth movement or other spaces of learning, it's what keeps us strong. You know, I look at everything that's happening around us and connection to history and culture and language is what keeps us connected and it gives us something to be inspired by, even in the hard times.

43:23SPEAKER_03:So I am looking forward to continuing to learn with you and finding other spaces to learn.

43:31SPEAKER_00:Amen. Kenya Ratson.

43:33SPEAKER_03:So thank you all for tuning in to episode three. We're looking forward to continue our exploration of why. Future episodes will include why practice, why eat, why argue, and why arts.

43:47SPEAKER_00:Looking forward to the upcoming conversations. As always, we'd like to thank Donnie Janks for creating both the intro music and the beautiful music you hear between all the segments. Our editor, Nick King, the Jewish Independent, for believing in this project and all of our listeners. Feedback is welcome at finding our why at the Jewishindependent.com.au. We'll put that email in the show notes together with the text that we studied today from PK Avot.

44:15SPEAKER_00:And I'll also add that if you enjoyed this podcast, TJ, I have a lot of other great podcasts that you should check out. One of them is called Politica with Sharon Offenberger and Juval Regev, which is about Israeli politics. Israel's got an election around the corner on October 27th. So if you don't know the difference between Naftali Bennett and Gaidi Isencott or a Knesset and a Kulpi, you know, this is the podcast for you to get up to speed with that.

44:43SPEAKER_00:And we hope to enjoy it. And thank you for joining us as always. Bye.