Living Right Side Out with Andy J. Pizza (rebroadcast)

0:04Welcome to Hacking Your ADHD. I'm your host, William Curb, and I have ADHD. On this podcast, I dig into the tools, tactics, and best practices to help you work with your ADHD brain. Hey, team. This week we've got a really fun episode. I'm talking with Andy J. Pizza. That was weird. Let's try that again. Andy J. Pizza. All right. Well, we'll just go with it. Andy is a podcaster, illustrator, and creative thinker who's built a career by embracing the parts of himself that used to feel like liabilities.

0:33Andy's the host of the Creative Pep Talk podcast, and his Right Side Out series dives into what happens when you stop trying to pass for neurotypical and start living a little bit more like yourself. It's a journey into what it was like for him discovering his ADHD and how he wanted to deal with that. Andy was diagnosed in his 20s, and his experience navigating masking, creative burnout, and his late-in-life self-acceptance forms the core of what we're going to be talking about today.

0:57In our conversation, we talk about the cost of masking, the weird middle ground between accommodation and authenticity, and the realization that sometimes we forget who we are because we've been just trying so hard to be someone else for so long. We also get into creative practice, novelty, and his favorite ADHD-friendly productivity hacks. And of course, we talk about what it means to live right side out and what it really means to show up authentically.

1:21This was definitely one of my favorite episodes I've recorded so far this year, so I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. If you'd like to follow along the show notes page, you can find that at HackingYourADHD.com/221. All right, keep on listening to find out how you can start living right side out. All right. So I think one of the easiest places for us to start is, so you have your series Right Side Out, and in the beginning of the series, you talk about this story of wearing a shirt right side out versus inside out.

1:52And I think if you could tell that story, that might be a great way to set the tone of what we're talking about today. It's funny, like I feel comfortable being in a setting where there's a understanding of ADHD. You don't always get that. I mean, that's rare. So it's funny because ADHD people probably have a lot of stories like this where they're missing details, they're not paying attention to something, they get themselves into a bit of a pickle, so to speak.

2:17That happens to me a lot, so I have a lot of stories like that. One of them was… And this wasn't really my fault. One time, a few summers ago, me and my wife and kids were going to see my Aunt Sandy and her kids, just kind of like a family thing. And on the way there, she called me and she's like, "Hey, I forgot that today's the day that my church is having a memorial for Grandma." And my grandma just passed within the year. And she's like, "Do you mind if we go there?

2:46Like they're gonna have a memorial for all the congregants that had passed that year." And I loved my grandma, and I'm not a monster, so I was like, "Yes, of course. That's fine." And I plugged into Google Maps the new address, and we went to this park where her church was holding this event. And I went over to the little pavilion thing where all the families were, dropped off my kids and my wife, parked the car. And then as I'm walking over to the little overhead place, I get just a glimpse of the shirt I'm wearing, and I realized that I was in major trouble.

3:22It was actually the shirt that I was wearing. I just realized this is not the best memorial attire. And luckily, I noticed it in time, jumped behind a bush, flipped it inside out, and the graphic was obscured, and the crisis was averted. Now, the shirt had like… The thing is, this is my favorite shirt. It's the first one out of the wash. It's the most me. And on it has a giant slice of pizza, which is great. I go by Andy J Pizza 'cause I love pizza.

3:50Are you a pizza guy? Yeah, I'm going to definitely be eating pizza after this. I was like, whenever I think about pizza, I want to have pizza afterwards, and I was like, "I'm just gonna plan on this ahead of time." That's good. You knew after this call you were gonna be thinking about pizza. So yeah, I love pizza. I go by Andy J Pizza. And, uh, it's got a huge slice of pizza. Not super appropriate for a memorial, but not, you know, not a deal breaker or anything.

4:13Unfortunately, the pizza is held by a giant skeleton hand, and that skeleton hand is coming out of the ground, and behind that skeleton hand is a gravestone that says, "Rest in pizza Not great memorial attire. And, uh, I just had visions of being chased with pitchforks and, um, the whole thing. And luckily, I flipped it before I got there. And even though that shirt is super me, I think that was the right thing to do. And I actually think masking, there's a lot of baggage with masking.

4:43There's a lot of baggage with not bringing your whole self to every place that you go. But everybody, neurotypical and neurodivergent alike, have to be able to accommodate situations. So I was happy to flip, no matter how me that shirt is, I was happy to flip the me inside out in that occasion to respect my grandma. And that was also kind of an experience I had my entire life, I realized. The more I thought about it, I realized, like, when I've showed up to kindergarten, my teacher was really quick to be like, "Whatever this is," like, "turn that down." And so I would flip that self inside out on that occasion.

5:22Dinner table, Sunday school, first week of college, you know, graduation, dates, all of that, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip. And I thought about how you do that long enough and you get tired of flipping your… You know, jumping behind bushes and flipping your shirt inside out metaphorically all the time, and you pretty soon just flip it before you leave the house. And then eventually you're washing them that way and you're cutting out the tags and you've forgotten any of the reminders that you're not actually meant to wear this this side out.

5:56You're actually supposed to live right side out. That story to me is kind of a reminder of how easy it is for me to make those accommodations for everybody else and forget all the stuff that's right underneath the surface that I'm hiding on the inside. And, and actually, whenever I would have these safe spaces around ADHD, like I got interviewed for some illustration work that I did for this magazine for ADHD a few years ago, and in that setting where this was a celebratory space for being this way I noticed I was being more myself than I'd been in years, and I thought, "Man, it's so scary how easy it is to forget that you're masking."

6:35That's the story we start the series on, and that's the idea of the Right Side Out, and we're talking about what does it look like to live right side out, and why should we do that? Being around other people thing is also reminding me of when I've gone to the ADHD conference that they have every year from CHADD. You go there and you're like, "Nearly everyone here has ADHD," and it is. Yeah. Like, you're like, "Oh, everyone is just doing their own thing," and it's great 'cause people are like, "Oh yeah, I have not felt this free to be myself in such a long time."

7:04Yeah. I started thinking about it like there's a s- there's safe space to be yourself, and then there's celebration space. There's a place where you're actually, what makes you belong is that you're different, and that that's the thing we're celebrating, and I had that in theater in high school. It took me a little while to find that group, and then in art, like, that's what makes you special is that you're different, not that you fit in. And so yeah, finding those places have become really essential for me.

7:30Well, I was thinking about this recently too with, like, all the times that I have done this when I didn't really need to. I was just the assumption of doing it, and so not showing up authentically. And then what's happening I've realized is I'll do that, and I won't be forming any connections with these people because I'm not really being myself, and- 'Cause you're not really there. Yeah, I'm just kind of flat- Yeah … cutting things down. And so I'm not even being who they want me to be.

7:53I'm not being who I want to be, and it just is bad all around. Yeah. It absolutely is, and I think I'm grateful that I have, in small doses when needed, the ability to pass as neurotypical for a half hour if I need to. Like, that, I'm grateful that I have that, but it is scary how easy it is to slip into that to the point of forgetting who you are. As I grew up, I think that's kinda what happened to me. And I think it happens from an internalized, not just that you're different and you're embarrassed, but that what's different about you is actually a problem.

8:29Yeah, there's like some maybe apocryphal accounts of how many times children with ADHD are corrected versus neurotypical children, and even with not having actual data for that, I'm like, that feels very accurate to me with just lived experience and, like, watching my own children and being like, "Oh yeah, how many times do I have to go and ask my child to go get their socks from upstairs?" And then them being like, "Well, I forgot." And I'm like, "Well, this is why I'm reminding you." They're like, "You don't have to remind me." I'm like, "But you forgot." My parents were fairly good about my ADHD, I feel.

9:00But even though I was not diagnosed for, until I was in my 20s, my parents used to just keep extra shoes in the car for me because of how often I forgot to get in the car with shoes. That sounds about right. That sounds like a good accommodation, but also that was, uh, definitely, uh, a clue. But yeah, and it's funny how we do end up with this like, yeah, we're trying to be someone else, and we just can't find our way back to who we thought we were 'cause it's been such a long time since we've been who we are.

9:28I know there have been times where I'm just like, "Oh, what do I even want? Who do I want to be?" And it's, like, scary when I don't have that answer right in front of me. It's like, then question like is this something that people just innately know, and I am somehow broken not knowing this? Or is it something that I just really need to work for? I like that idea of the T-shirts that y- you know, you're folding them away inside out, you're cutting out the tags, and eventually you're not even gonna remember or much think about what was on the inside of this thing.

9:57And I think for me, when I started really thinking about that and started crafting that story, it came from that call that I had where I realized, like, how is it that I'm a full-time artist, my job is essentially to be myself professionally, and I'm still finding these experiences where an, a true unmasking feels completely foreign to me? And to the point of I've forgotten what it feels like to be this free. And then trying to do it on command. That's a whole other thing.

10:27One of the other things that happened as I was doing this series, I did a lot of different research and reading and, you know, when I had that feeling, being interviewed And being celebrated for ADHD, or ADHD being celebrated, I got off of that phone call feeling euphoric to the degree in w- to which I felt like this doesn't feel like a personal experience. This seems so profound that this has to have some kind of precedent. There has to be some catalog.

10:59Like, something happened here. I'm very aware of that. So I started really trying to dive into finding any terminology of what is this feeling? And it was one of those rare times where you can't even quite Google it. I started getting into, like, research papers, which I, you know, find very intimidating, but the odd time when I'm really desperate on a hyperfixation, I can get there. And I found this research from a guy, Dr. Ken Bonnow. He's a psychologist, and he did all this research on this exact experience, and he coined a term, and it's called pro-being pride.

11:35And it's the feeling of pro-being, meaning for being, pride. And it's the pride of your being, not necessarily being proud of something you did, but proud of the way that you are, and that you often encounter it when you're in the presence of somebody else enjoying your nature. He has kind of this research and theory around how it's extremely powerful in counteracting deep-seated shame. And so he actually appears later in the series, and there's a clip with him.

12:05I had a conversation with him. He's a really brilliant guy. But yeah, this pro-being pride thing, I thought, "Okay, this is the feeling." I have another person who's a researcher in the series named Angus Fletcher, who's an expert in story, has a PhD in Shakespeare, really interesting character who I- I'm a huge fan of. And he connected this too, because as I was thinking about this celebration space, that was what I was calling the pro-being pride thing I thought, oh, kind of what you said, but you actually clarified it.

12:34I thought, "Oh, I need to go be where all the ADHD people are." Like, that's what I need. I need to be where people are like me. But like you said, and everybody knows, it's, it's kind of like what they say about autistic people, where if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. Similar with ADHD. The thing that Angus Fletcher talks about is that that feeling of self-acceptance and self-love is more likely to come from a space not where everyone's like you, but where everyone's different and that's what they celebrate, and the differences is appreciated rather than the kind of spaces where differences aren't allowed if you're gonna be part of this club or whatever.

13:12I started diving into it because it was such a profound feeling. Probably, I'm guessing most people can think about when were you in a space where the person you were with just was appreciating your being. They just liked the way that you are and how freeing and powerful that is. Yeah. Remember a few years ago, shortly after, like, initial pandemic lockdowns and I could start seeing people again, and visiting with a friend and just chilling out at his house and just not…

13:42We weren't doing anything, but it was like, "Oh, but this is just great to be around these people where I don't feel like I have to do something." 'Cause that's often what I find with, like, doing the masking, is that it's, I'm putting on this, some sort of performance, and that is exhausting. Yeah, it's an act, an acting rather than being. It's almost the opposite. I get very drained by most social engagements. That's not- it's difficult not to fall into the masking And I'm, like, sitting there thinking, like, now, like, is it that I'm an introvert, or do I spend so much time masking that it doesn't matter what my social experience is like, it's always going to be exhausting?

14:19I think the same thing. I've had the same quandary. I've thought, like, I think of myself as an introvert, but I often think, "Yeah, that's probably just masking," the tax of masking socially. I do know if there's too many people, it doesn't matter, I'm gonna be exhausted, but I have a lot of trouble with focusing on more than one conversation or having a number of people in a conversation. Got the people like, "Oh, you're so quiet." I'm like, "Yeah, I can't track everything.

14:40I'm always just catching up here." Yeah, I can get like that. I can get like that if it's like, especially, you know, if you're in a bar and there's TVs and there's other conversations in the vicinity, like that- that's very difficult for me. Yeah. Or it's like I'm trying to talk to my wife and my children are doing, having their own conversation in the corner. I'm like, "They're not really interrupting me, but wow, I cannot focus right now." And it's like, I'm like, "They're being good, I shouldn't, but ugh, how do I communicate this?" And I mean, that's one of the, like, funny things where you're like, "I don't want to impose what's going on in my brain on everyone else."

15:12And so I think that's, like, kind of what a lot of the masking comes from. It's like, "Oh, I don't want to burden you with who I am." Which saying out loud sounds awful, but is definitely learned from my, like, Midwest parents. Uh Yeah. It's interesting because, you know, having neurodivergent people in my family and having friends that have totally different types of brains, I think a lot about what does it mean to accommodate, because what you just said is kind of a moving idea, like this idea I don't wanna burden other people with who I am.

15:48It moves me because I totally relate to that. And at the same time, there's a balance of that because I have autistic friends. We're cut from such different cloths, and I know there's certain ways I could be that are gonna be extremely taxing on them, and vice versa. And actually, the best way that we can be in friendship is making allowances and making accommodations. And so I think we're in this time where we're in this antithesis moment, this anti-thing of what was before, where the neurodivergent people were forced to make all the accommodations to the neurotypical people or the way that society has built itself.

16:29And in, in that, like, pushback, what you get is this, "No, we won't. We're not gonna mask. We're anti-masking." You know, whatever. Not, not anti-masking in COVID way, but in a neurodivergent way. And I think I'm interested in how we move past that, too, to get to a synthesis of there's an understanding that we're all different types of people. We need different accommodations, and just because this way that you've set up things is, quote-unquote, normal, doesn't mean that we all have to accommodate for that.

17:03That's what it is. We are accommodating for the normalcy of others. But not being so… I don't wanna be anti-accommodations either because how could I be if I'm asking people make accommodations for me? It is always tricky, too, when, like, things, like, overlap in weird ways 'cause, like, my wife has issues with misophonia, where she's very sensitive to sounds, and my daughter likes to stim by singing to herself, and, like, who, who are we going to accommodate here?

17:29Usually my wife, but, uh It's difficult. You have to find these different, you know, w- and that's what I'm, I'm more interested in a world where we have those conversations. That's what I'm interested in. I'm not interested in saying everyone has to just deal with the way that I am, you know? Yeah, 'cause there's, like, different things. Like, so yeah, often it's my wife being like, "Okay, you can't sing right now." But, you know, other times it's like, oh, my wife's like, "I'm gonna put on my headphones because I need to focus on this, and I… You can keep doing what you're doing, but I can't be both listening to you and doing what I'm doing."

17:59Yeah, it reminds me of something that Brene Brown spoke about, which I thought was really poignant, and she talked about how she would, when she gets home with her husband, they'll both say what percent kinda regulated they are, and they'll make accommodations based on that. So there are times where, you know, your wife might be like, "Look, I just can't deal with this right now. Could you please just quiet down or go in the other room?" And that makes sense.

18:26But yeah, it's that, again, it's that open communication around needs and preferences, and it's require so much empathy because for me, I actually thrive in noisy for a lot of the time. I r- actually remember hearing that same thing from Brene Brown, and it was one of those things where it, like, clicked with me, like, oh, I need to communicate how I'm feeling because it's not always going to be clear that I'm at 10%. I'm just kinda like, it's like, oh, are you s- just staring off into space because you're thinking, or are you staring off into space because that's the way you're just disassociated and that's the way your brain's coping right now?

18:59And you realize, like, yeah, sometimes you and your spouse are both at 10%, and there's nothing you can do but power through. That happens too. Yeah. Uh, a couple weeks ago being like, "Hey, kids, we're having snack dinner." Yeah, exactly. " Go find something in the pantry." Exactly. Gotta call that sometimes. One of the things I do love about ADHD is like this ability to go with the flow of things a lot of the times, because that is a kind of learned response from ADHD I find, where I'm like, "Yeah, I have had so many times where things have gone sideways and I've just had to deal with it and then keep going."

19:28And it is, I think, a very great skill to learn to be like, "Oh yeah, things didn't work out how I wanted to, but now I'm gonna do something else with it." That's one of the best ways to be creative for me too is I'm like, "Oh, this didn't work, but now this is this thing." Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I can even see myself self-sabotaging at times just to create these novel experiences. Like, that's the thing that comes to mind for me where I would see, you know, if there was a fire drill at school or d- whatever that threw off things, like nothing was better.

20:00And I realized, like, this is a novelty-seeking nervous system where I'm like, I am excited when things go wrong or don't go the right way or whatever just because it's different. And finding out stuff like that has really helped me navigate things. For instance, habits are so hard for ADHD people for so many reasons, and one of the things that I've realized is, you know, the definition of a habit for neurotypical people is doing the same thing the same way and making it automatic.

20:31And I realized that I actually can't do that. I can do the same thing if I do it in a different way. And so for running, you know, that's looked like I have to take the playlist for my run super seriously. It has to be totally juiced. I have to be like, "Oh, this song is hitting, like hard." And that means taking it seriously, wasting time crafting these stupid playlists because I need that novelty. It makes me think of that. Like, it does make you resilient because when the world goes upside down, there's a little part of you that's like, "Thank God, I couldn't take another minute of the same old, same old." It kind of makes you good in those scenarios.

21:10Yeah. I, I mean, I've known so many people in, with ADHD that are like, "Yeah, I shine in a crisis." It's like I finally have that stimulation to do all the things. Although I know if people take it too far, they're like, "I'ma always be in crisis," and then they're like, "Oh no, now I'm burning out. Ugh, can only do this for so long apparently." Yeah. Unfortunately, I totally understand that. A while ago I did this episode on, like, the dichotomies of ADHD where it feels like I need both a lot of structure, but I need a lot of novelty.

21:37I need a lot of, I need to have the time to do something, but I also need to have a very strict deadline to do it. I need to know exactly what I'm doing, but not have someone tell me what I'm doing. It does make you an annoying person to parent or, um, have as an employee, 'cause that's very confusing, and that… But I feel that. And it, it's one of the reasons why I really love that phrase from Dr. Becky. She says, "Two things can be true." Mm-hmm.

22:04And I feel like so much of trying to find a working philosophy for how to move through the world with ADHD in a way that isn't a complete disaster means having that flexibility of mind or being able to hold two things in tension, finding the tension of opposite ideas. Just like that thing I was saying, like doing the same thing in different ways. Like, one of my kind of hyperfixations is philosophy, self-help, that kind of stuff, and I really love opposing philosophies.

22:35Sometimes I'll read books that are almost polar opposites, and I love them because I need both gears. I don't know where this comes from. I don't know the origin of it, but I heard this idea that you need two pieces of paper, one in each pocket, and it, one of them says, "You are a piece of dust in the universe. You're completely inconsequential." And then on the other piece of paper it says, "You're unique in all the universe and there's nothing as complex and amazing as you."

23:03And you need both of those pieces of paper, and you need to pull out which one you need at the different times that you need it. And I think that kind of dynamic movement through life is the only chance that ADHD people have. And it's exhausting, but it can also be kind of fun if you can dance with it or something. Yeah, absolutely, 'cause it is… Yeah, it's figuring out when you do need those two pieces of advice. 'Cause sometimes, yeah, sometimes I need this one, sometimes I need that one.

23:28And- Sometimes I'm not good at choosing which one I need at the time. That is true, and the more dysregulated you are, the, the worse you are at choosing or being in touch with which one you need. Yeah, 'cause it can be feel with, uh, the ADHD, the very black and white thinking, where I'm like, "Oh yeah, this is how things are," and it's like, no. I mean, this is one of my funniest things when I'm, like, started working with this assistant producer person to help me get everything done, and I'll be like, "Yeah, I've decided that we're just gonna change this thing."

23:56He's like, "Oh," and I'm like, "Yeah, I realized we don't have to do it this way anymore," and he's like, "Oh, that's true. Great." And it was just, like, for, like, when I was, like, doing my newsletter, I was like, "Oh, I was doing it this way," and I'm like, "This is just torture for me to get this done this way," and I'm like, "Oh, I'm the boss. I can change my mind." Yeah, and not only that, and even, even more than that, you know, one of the… Like, my wife watched me over the past 15 years change how I make coffee in the morning probably 10 times.

24:21Like, you know, I've, I've gone through every type of process that there is, right? And she, uh, being, you know, the way that she is, she's like, "What are you doing?" Like, "Are you gonna find one that you like?" And I, it, that's where this idea of doing the same thing differently came from, 'cause I realized, like, oh, I'm not looking for the way to do it. I'm looking for a new way, because I'm sick of making coffee that way. Like, I can't do it anymore.

24:47It's driving me nuts. I gotta find novelty within this. And so instead of thinking, what I've adopted is instead of thinking, oh, this new way I'm doing the newsletter, that's the way, I have to realize, like, no, this is what I wanna do right now. It might not even be efficient. It might not even be effective. I just wanna try this f- for now, and it's getting me to show up, so I'll trust it. Yeah, and I think it's so important to try and embrace this fact that I'm, like, trying to think that I'm gonna do something forever is… I've never had anything that lasted forever.

25:16I mean, I've only been alive for 39 years, so can't really predict forever, but, uh, in those 39 years, nothing has been that constant, so. Yeah, I've learned to distrust that thought, actually. When it, when that thought that comes and says, "Oh, all I have to do is do this forever," I'm like, "Okay, well, I already know that's a bad plan 'cause I don't do that." I've got really good, you know, I got r- I got really good for, like, six, seven years of running every other day, running three miles, and I've just started to get out of it, and I think it's 'cause I'm, I need to introduce novelty back into it.

25:49I can figure out how to do the same thing if I can do it in a different way. Yeah, and I think that's often where people, like, stumble a lot, is they will be like, "Oh, I have this way that I do my to-do list, but I can't get myself to do it anymore, and I don't know what to do," and I'm like, "Just do it differently." Don't even… You don't even have to do it a lot differently. Make it so, like, uh- No. Yeah, just introduce some- something that makes it feel a little bit juicy.

26:09Oh, yeah. Just, I'm gonna just put a new column on here. It says how much I like to do this o- this thing. It's like, like, taxes sucks. Uh I'm like, "Oh, great. I get to- Taxes are a trigger word, okay, Will? Don't be throwing that word around. That's like, that- I've run my own business for 15 years. Mm-hmm. That right there is the bane of my existence. Every year I think I'm gonna get it. Oh. I, I never, I haven't yet. It's a nightmare. I'm like, "Oh," I'm, I'm like, "This year is gonna be the year," and I'm like…

26:36And there's so many things with ADHD where I'm just like, "Oh, yeah." Like, I'm like, "Oh, I'm just gonna stay on top of dishes and there's never, I'm never gonna have to worry about them. This thing's gonna be perfect." And then I get, like, everything put away and then two days later I'm like, "How did this happen again?" The two things that have saved me, I really feel, one is the same thing I've said 1,000 times, the same thing differently, but also bundling.

26:58Bundling, doing two things at once. That saved me. Man, when I was a kid and my parents would make us mow the grass, I… The one time, and this is the thing, like, I love, finding out I was ADHD was so healing for me because, you know, one of the things they talk about that I just felt like the worst person alive was boredom is physical pain. It is. Like, it is for me. Like, I, and I hate, you know, I don't even wanna say I hate that about myself, but I am prone to hating that about myself.

27:24It's a difficulty being a dad, being a husband, like, doing d- so much is difficult b- just because of that fact. And, you know, when I was a kid and they used to mo- make us mow the grass, I just, oh my gosh, I absolutely hated it. One time I faked falling down the hill with the lawnmower, faked an, an injury, 'cause I was like, "Oh, I can't do it. I can't…" So I was just like, "I have to get out of this. I, I can't do this anymore." And it wasn't until I realized, like, oh, I can actually tape songs off the radio- onto my tape and listen to all my favorite songs.

28:00And even all the way into adulthood, I would allow myself this accommodation of singing while I was mowing. So I'm listening to my favorite songs, singing at the top of my lungs. Looking back now, 'cause I don't- I listen to podcasts now, so I don't have to do that, I kind of can't even believe, like I'm in my early 20s, my neighbors think I've completely lost it. Like I'm… But it's the only way I can get through it. So I have, you know, all those different little audiobooks.

28:26Po- That's why podcasts are the ADHD medium, is because it's the perfect companion to everything boring. I spend so much time just being like, "Oh, I need to do something. Let's hop on a podcast, listen to some friends for a while, and we'll get a, get something going." That or doing a lot more audiobooks the last couple of years, but it's- Yeah. I think that's a trend because I think, I think podcasts kind of trained people how to listen to audio, and then the people that got super hardcore with podcasts needed like a next level, and audiobooks are so much more organized and concise.

28:57I still listen to podcasts, but I, I have different kind of go-to things, and I listen to a lot of audiobooks too. Yeah, it's made me always be like, "Why are video podcasts so popular? I can't imagine watching a podcast." It's kind of crazy. I know. It's kinda crazy. I- It makes me wonder if it's more of a neurotypical thing or if it's like a background thing for ADHD. It's like extra stimulation. But it took me a long time to get on board with that idea p- for that same reason because I, I use it so often in the car, you know, mowing, doing the odd things around the house.

29:28Yeah. Well, and it also reminds me of how often I like imagine that everyone thinks like me And then I'll, like, see things like people are like, "Oh, people love video podcasts." I'm like, "Why?" I don't love them. Well, you know, the other- And then it's like, people are different. Yeah, people are different. But also, you know, I have this creative podcast, so I've done a podcast for 10 years about creativity. So I think a lot about… I'm an illustrator, so I think a lot about creative practice, how to be creative, best practices, that kind of thing.

29:56And this is one thing that you were saying, like, people are different, and you're only thinking r- from your perspective. But creatively, I think that falls under this idea of taste, which I think is one of the most essential tools of being a creative person, is really the only thing you have is your taste. Like, you have that sensitivity. That's the thing that's gonna help you make decisions and know what to do. And that's why until I started, like, watching some podcasts on YouTube, I couldn't do the video portion, because I was just like, "I just don't know what the appeal is." If I don't know the… It's like, how can you be a vegetarian and open a steakhouse?

30:33Like, it just doesn't make any sense. You can't… You don't know what's good. You can't taste what you're making. So, you know, I think it's a, a valid point. Yeah, and it's one of the things where you go, "Oh, yeah, people are different," and they're… Slow down and be curious, like, "Oh, well, well, why do they like that so much?" Maybe th- they're consuming it in a different way. 'Cause I was like, oh, yeah, I'm not doing, like, YouTube podcast thing, and I just put it on the TV.

30:56That's better than putting on a movie, 'cause I know I'll s- if I put on a movie, I'll sit down and end up watching it instead of cleaning. I don't think I'll sit and watch a podcast, but it might have that, like, extra bit of, like, oh, there's, there's some people here. I've got a little bit of a, that accountability feel of, oh, people are here, they're talking, and we're, we're cleaning together, even though they're not helping. Jerks. I know.

31:16And I think that, uh, the other piece of it for me is that a lot of the stuff I listen to is kind of like nonfiction, informational. And so, but what most people listen to is more entertainment stuff. Mm-hmm. And so the entertainment shows that I listen to, I prefer to see those, too. And so I think there's some kind of, at least for my particular taste profile, there's something about, like, comedy podcasts, I get why you wanna see them. Yeah. There's a lot of acting out.

31:44There's a lot of, you know, extra flair if you're watching it. But if you're listening to people talk about psychology or marketing or whatever, it doesn't really… There's not a huge appeal there for me. Yeah, sitting there being like, "Oh, yeah, how are you doing this differently?" And- What's the appeal? More often than not when I'm like, I actually like sit down and like go like, "Oh, why would someone spend money to do that, that, this thing that I would never do?" I'm like, "Oh, it's 'cause you really love it and there is a reason that you really love it." I think this also comes back to the point earlier we were talking about, like knowing what you want and being yourself.

32:18'Cause it's like it's hard to always visualize what other people want, and so that's makes it so hard to try and be who you think they want you to be. Doesn't work, and why it's important to like, yeah, just be you. If they don't, they're not gonna like who you're pretending to be, so don't bother that. If they don't like who you are, then nothing changed. Like the equation didn't shift. It was either they didn't wanna hang out with fake you and they didn't wanna hang out with real you, well, that doesn't change how things go.

32:42Maybe find someone that you do wanna hang out with There's a metaphor in creativity to, that matches what you're talking about just in everyday life. Like, when creative people do that, when they try to give people what they think they want, they call it pandering because you think, "Oh, I'm so above the masses. I can see exactly what they want. I'm not even into it, but here, the… I know this, you're gonna love this." That's kind of what masking is.

33:08It's kind of like thinking that you know what these people want you to be, and you can give them what they want. And the truth is, just like you said, rarely are you that successful. I mean, have you ever just, like, yeah, there's some times where you've masked really hard, and people really like you for that, and usually that's, there's, maybe there's a whole bunch of other stuff wrapped up in that. But it rarely goes that well. You're not actually making a genuine connection.

33:31And I mean, I found it's been so important in my journey as a podcaster of like when I am doing the episodes where the number one audience is the other me sitting out there, and I am writing towards this person who I feel needs to hear this information, that it w- is me before I started writing that episode. Those episodes do so much better because it's like, oh, I am, I'm not writing for anyone else. I'm talking about the stories that I think are important to me, the facts that I wish I understood better.

34:02I'll, like, sit there and be like, "Oh, how do I explain this?" And I'm like, "Oh, this is… I thought I knew this way better than I did, but I can't." It's like, well, I'll be like, oh, that's been on the back burner for such a long time now 'cause I haven't found a good way to do it, is talking about, uh, people like, "Don't just rely on habits, rely on systems." And I'm like, "Great, what's a system? Oh, that's complicated. Let's dive into this." And I've spent hours and hours writing on this, and I'm like, I'm still not comfortable explaining this concept in a way that isn't overly abstract.

34:30Oh, I get that totally. You know, the podcast I do, I do tons and tons of monologue episodes, and that same thing has happened. It, it also what ends up happening is you're like, "Oh, this is kind of a…" I get an inclination of like, this could be an episode, and then you start diving into it, and you're like, "Wait, I don't understand this as well as I thought I did." You're doing research, writing, and you're like, "Oh, this is actually, like, five episodes." You know, that happens a lot too.

34:51Yeah, I did one on, like, energy management that ended up like that, where I was just like, "Oh, this is complicated," and I could've gone way deeper. I'm fortunately now ahead in my episodes, and so I can spend a little bit more time on things, but it used to be like, "Okay, I need to write this and put it out the same week." And be like, "Oh no, I don't understand this as well as I thought, and I really have to figure this out." Yeah, I've been there.

35:11I've been there. That's serious stress. Yeah, there was, uh, times I'm like, "Okay, episodes come out on Monday. This episode's finished at Tuesday." Well, there's, uh, definitely times where I'm, like, releasing episodes day of, morning of, night before, and I'm so nice to now not be doing that. It feels weird 'cause I'm like, that's, I don't know how you… To just, like… 'Cause I often have, when people, like, interview me, like, "Oh, how do you do this practice?" I'm like, you just kinda get in the groove and you do it.

35:38I think about this a lot because one of… my oldest kid is a lot like me, and she I've realized, like, there are certain lessons that people like me can only learn firsthand, because the only way that I could learn to do a picture book on schedule or do a podcast ahead of time is to feel the pain of what happens when I don't. Because then you realize, oh, there is an urgency a month out. There is… Th- this actually is do or die right now. And the only way I can tap into, you know, that idea of, like, you have this nervous system that is based on urgency or interest or whatever, only a few things really move the needle.

36:23I've had to learn the hard way a bunch of times what urgency looks like when you're working at, at a bigger scale, and that's how I ended up getting ahead. And we're not always ahead, but it's only because of so much pain, of so much like, "Oh, yeah, I'm back in this place that is the worst." It's not a place you wanna create from. I mean, sometimes you can get, like, great stuff from, like, "Oh, I… Like, my brain's just firing because it's like-" Sure.

36:48Everything gets- It needs to. Yeah. It's like the need fuels what needs to happen. But yeah, oftentimes I'm like, I find that, like, the revision of what I've… Like, when I do a monologue, I'll write an episode, and then I'll, like, come and look at it again and be like, "Wow, that is awful." Uh- It's terrible … let's rewrite that. Uh- Yep. I've done it- And- a thousand times … and it's like, I'm like, oh, it's so much better when I can give it the time to not just give that first effort.

37:13And while the first effort would have been fine and is what I would have turned in in high school or college for, like, a paper, I'm like, I could have been such a better writer at that stage in my life going through and doing the revision that needed to happen. That's one of the things I loved about doing this show for 10 years, is just spending a lot of time thinking about creativity and, and reading about it and getting into what researchers say about it.

37:35And one of the things that researchers around creativity, a phrase that comes up over and over and over again that you don't hear really much every day or with artists, you'll hear it in little pockets if you know to look for it, but it's One of the phases that they mark out in the creative process is incubation, and that's a thing that I don't think-- I didn't think about it for a long time. I didn't realize, like, it would happen accidentally, like what you're saying, um, where you've left something, come back to it when you need to use it, and you're like, "Oh, this actually sucks." But the interesting thing is when you go to rewrite it, you have all this subconscious help that your subconscious been working on this for the past however long you've left it.

38:18And I've heard Taika Waititi, the filmmaker, say that one of the favorite practices that he has when he can afford it is to write a script and then leave it for a year, and then come back to it. And you just see it so fresh. You're so-- You're not precious about it, and you have this benefit. Like, so many times we're working on picture books or episodes, I have this thing where I write and write and write, and I'm like real-- Like, I know it's… Okay, there's something good here, but it's not great.

38:42Th- there's-- Something's missing. And even-- And I've worked so hard, I'm like, "It's not there. This is just not gonna be good. It's just not… It doesn't have it." Then I'll come back a couple days later, I'm like, "Boom. There it is." You know, it's useful to kinda have these things in your, in your toolbox, so you're not Doing it on accident, you know? 'Cause for a long time, that's how I, I was doing it. I still do sometimes. Yeah. Well, and for a long time, it felt like that was the right way to do it, 'cause I was like, oh, if I'm- Yeah … like, I- it's so easy to tap into this energy to get stuff done if I am doing stuff up to that deadline.

39:18Yeah. I mean, that's the interesting thing. I can't remember what the three, like, motivations of ADHD are, but I know they're- it's interests, and it's urgency, and I feel like there's one other one. But I think school probably because for a lot of kids, it's not interesting, so that's not motivating. That's not a motivating factor. So they're pretty much just learning how to exist through urgency. That's the other thing about the novelty element of, you know, doing a project, a picture book, or a 10-year project with podcasts.

39:48I've also had to give myself a lot of permission to kind of go on tangents, because I know this is at its best if I can allow myself to be led by curiosity and not urgency only. Yeah. And it also tells me if I am being led by curiosity, this is something I really wanna work on. Like- Yes … 'cause I'm like, I'm like, oh, this is a topic that I'm so interested in that that's what's driving the work. It's not it needs to get done, needs to get out the door.

40:15That reminds me also of something we were talking about earlier where I was talking about the two things being true. You know, there's a book called Four Thousand Weeks by Oliver Burkeman, and, uh, great book. It was really useful to me to think about… He talks about this atelic versus telic experiences. And atelic is a play on telos, which is goal, goal-oriented. Atelic is non-goal-oriented, or where you're doing it for the experience, not for the destination.

40:43And so I've had to realize, like, in my creative career, there's a lot of, like, dopamines in the chase. And so I got so goal-oriented in my creative practice that I re- I forgot that This is actually about enjoying making stuff. That's why I did it. You know what I mean? For me, this two things at once looks like realizing, yes, I see the appeal and the validity of an Oliver Burkeman's atelic experience, where you're doing it for the experience of doing it.

41:09You're making the picture book because you want to make a picture book, not because you want to get on The New York Times or get the Caldecott or whatever. But for me, again, the two pieces of paper, that's what works best. If I can find something I'm naturally curious about that also has some kind of end goal, and I think of it like, "Can I pick a destination where the road trip will also be dope? I know that I'm going places that I wanna be," that's where I try to set my target.

41:39It's not always easy, but I try to do the same thing with podcasting. Yeah. This is also making me think of this, uh, concept from, like, uh, outdoor- during stuff where it's like type one and type two fun, where type fun is fun you're- where you're having fun while you're doing it, and type two fun is fun that you love that you'd have done it. So you, like, go on this really difficult hike and you're like, "I loved that I did that. I feel so good-" Yeah … and it's, I love it.

42:02But at the time it is awful. And that is, I find, uh, something I try and think about too with my work, where I'm like, when there's that slog of like, "Well, I want to have gotten through this. Am I going to enjoy the end product? Am I going to enjoy what I've done?" And I'm like, "Okay, that's can be motivating as well." Uh, absolutely. And I think I- I'm glad you brought it up that way. I really like that way of thinking about it. And I realize, like, for me as a kid or when I, you know, with ADHD kids, I know, again, it goes back to this, like, learning by experience.

42:31You know, I know so many ADHD type people that do, like, public speaking stuff, and they will, they have a really difficult time planning and, you know, they wanna wing it. And I get it. ADHD people tend to be good at winging it, right? Um, but I had to learn the hard way, and eventually I would put so much work into really planning, really writing, really practicing, that the end result would be that, I think the type two one, as you're talking about, where it's like, yes, it wasn't fun leading up to it, but the high of doing it and pulling it off was so good that I could learn to do that again.

43:08I think seems like, especially ADHD kids with the school, because school doesn't have a lot of those highs unless you're in, like, sports. They don't get that elation of, "Oh, I've finished the test. Wow, all the studying was worth it." They don't care, you know? It's like- So, like … Or they just didn't do it. That's another thing I think about when I'm parenting, like, how can I get them to realize that it's actually worth working for things? That's why I fell so hard into the … I fell really hard in the goal-oriented stuff for a while because I was really existing, getting all my dopamine from that.

43:41Once you learn that, it can be really, really powerful for ADHD people, I think, to figure out the, how… 'Cause, you know, goals and resolutions and habits are such a challenge that for the longest time I just avoided that stuff. And once I realized, like, oh, this is a source of, like, happiness, this is a source that, of something that can keep me on, on the path, I had to… I got too far into that. I realized, like, oh, now I'm never even enjoying every day.

44:08Like, every day is part of the slog towards a future day, and that's, it's difficult to balance. Yeah. I r- I remember I was, picked up a, uh, I love, uh, doing daily planning 'cause it, like, allows me to do, if I do know what I'm doing, then I can take, make sure I'm not doing too much and I can kind of, uh, try and balance things out. But I had one that had, like, what's something fun you're doing today? And I was just, like, blanking on writing that.

44:30I'm like, oh, no, uh, this is… I need to figure this out. Change your life. Like, if I cannot, if I can consistently not find something that I'm gonna be doing that's fun in my day, that's not a life I wanna lead. No. It reminds me of, I can get into that spot because of, I can get into these, like, hyper-fixation meals, where I'm like, oh, I'm eating this every day. Yeah. And the reason I'm eating that every day is because there's something about the combination of that that's really hitting me in the way that I need, like, in terms of, I don't know, whatever the chemicals are.

45:02But I'm like, "Okay, that's working." And so I get so in a rut. It g- that groove becomes a rut, where all of a sudden now I'm like, I can't be open to anything else because this is where I used to get that thing. And so that's another area where studying, uh, creative stuff has really helped me, because the key to creativity is openness to experience. That's the, like, technical term that they use, and it is exactly what it sounds like, which is openness to experience.

45:31And I have to realize, like, when I get into those days where I look at my days and I can't think of anything, not just today, but for the next five weeks, I'm like, "I don't even know… None of this sounds fun anymore. None… This meal isn't doing the trick anymore." Like, I have to realize, like, oh, it's because I've, like, locked in. I've lost my openness. And I have to be willing to be like, "I'm gonna try some new shows. I'm gonna try some new albums." I gotta, you know, do, just be open for a while, knowing that a lot of it's not gonna be good.

45:59A lot of it's not gonna be fun. But again, I have to find that novelty. That's what makes ADHD feel like an adventure, is that you're like, you never stay in stagnant. You always have to evolve. Um, because you just bleed everything till it's dry, man. Like, I just I really can take the fun out of stuff. Which is such a funny thing about ADHD is you're like, "Yeah, I'm gonna just beat this joke until it's done, and then I'm gonna keep going for a while, and- I'm gonna use this song until I don't ever wanna hear it again.

46:30Yeah. Yeah, my, uh… When I had my, like, Spotify Wrapped, it was like you were, for one of the songs it was like you were in the .00045% of listeners. I was like, "Oh, okay." Yeah. Same thing happened to me with, uh, Elden Ring. I put… That video game, I put like 300 hours on it, did the whole, um, DLC, was obsessed with it, just like could not get enough, and then got to the final boss of the DLC and I'm like, "No, I don't care anymore. This is-" Oh, it's so weird when I'm like, "Yeah, I've done everything except for these last two things," and I just- No, can't do it … it's, uh, I feel like I should go back and finish, but, mm. There's nothing left for you there.

47:08Yeah. All right. Well, I had so much fun talking to you. Good deal. Feels like I got a kindred spirit here, uh, with everything. I'm just like, like, "Oh yeah, that." Any final thoughts you'd like to leave the audience with? Same to you, man. This is great. It feels like that celebration space. It feels like a good space to just let it kind of fly, and I really appreciate it, and, uh, thanks for having me. I'll just say one more thing, which is the conclusion of the Right Side Out thing, the ADHD diagnosis was huge for me, not for any other reason other than self-acceptance, is that it made me realize that, you know, I got past the diagnosis, past the disorder, and realized neurodivergence is about embracing these parts of yourself and that running from myself wasn't helping.

47:53And so in my creative life, you know, it's really hard to be an artist if you hate who you are. If you… It's really hard to be an artist if you're trying to be someone else. Like, that's the whole idea. Art is self-expression, and you're not gonna love that expression if you hate the thing it's an expression of, which is you. And so that was a huge thing for me, like, this idea of you're a good thing to cultivate. Like, the answer is to cultivate it, not to overcome it.

48:18And that, that shift right there, that was the biggest philosophical shift in my worldview in my entire life, and it's the reason I did that series was because I actually think the prevailing point of view in modern society is the right thing to do is hate yourself enough to change. Mm-hmm. And that, that is toxic, and it doesn't work. There's been no amount of negative self-talk that has ever actually spurred me to do something good. No. If people wanna find out more about your work, Creative Pep Talk and all that- I call it Creative Pop Tart sometimes.

48:53Um, it's Cre- Creative Pep Talk. That podcast is anywhere. It's for creative practices, being creative. If you are a creative person and you wanna have a creative practice, I have a little PDF called The Creative Career Path- that you get when you sign up to the newsletter at andyjpizza.substack.com. And it's just a little, it's basically a tool for thinking strategically in your creative career or just being creative about how you approach career.

49:22So yeah, you can check that out at, uh, on my Substack. Awesome. And we'll get all that in the, uh, show notes, 'cause I'm sure people are gonna wanna go check this out, 'cause got some really great stuff, so. Thanks, man. Thanks, Will. Thanks for having me. I was really pumped to talk to you and get to be in the ADHD space. Yeah, this was so much fun. Thanks again to Andy for coming on the show, and thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end.

49:49Be sure to check out Andy's podcast, Creative Pep Talk, and I'll be sure to include links to the show notes to that Right Side Out series that we talked about during this episode. Before you go, though, let's do a quick rundown of today's top tips. One, masking isn't inherently a bad thing, but it certainly is when we're doing it all the time and unconsciously. We want to be intentional about when and why we're masking and aim for authenticity when possible.

50:12Two, it's okay to embrace opposing truths. We need structure and flexibility, goals and play. We don't have to fall into all-or-nothing thinking, and this can help us balance some of these ADHD contradictions, which, when analyzed further, actually go together quite well. Three, celebrate differences. Don't just tolerate them. Safe spaces are good, but celebration spaces where your uniqueness is actively valued are better. Look for relationships or communities where people enjoy your way of being, not just what you can do for them.

50:45All right, that's it. Thanks for listening. I'd love to hear what you thought of this episode. Feel free to connect with me over at hackingyouradhd.com/contact, or you can find me on BlueSky at HackingYourADHD. If you'd like links or to read this episode's transcript, you can go to the show notes page at hackingyouradhd.com/221. If you'd like even more Hacking Your ADHD, be sure to sign up for my newsletter, Any and All Distractions, which comes out every other week.

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