Who Is Catechizing You?

Bryan Hollon: the culture itself is always catechizing us, always trying to form us, certainly always trying to form our children. And we live in an age right now where I think that the what what the church is up against and what parents are up against is is is more extreme than perhaps any other time in Christian history because of cell phones and because of social media. Our children are are no longer being brought up within the context of a family culture or a church culture. Rather, they have exposure to this massive online world where the values of the world are are assimilating them in really, really destructive ways. But it means that the ministry of catechesis is more important now than than than it ever has been. Because we have to continually fight against this sort of counter or or that we have to fight against this worldly catechesis and offer a counter catechesis in the truth. And that's what catechetical ministry really is. Welcome to the Holy Order Podcast. My name is Brian Holland, and I'm I'm your host along with Cooper Nye, my co-host. We have a great episode for you today on the ministry of catechesis. Cooper, how are you doing?

Cooper: I'm alright, how do I sound?

Bryan Hollon: You sound a little bit froggy, I think. Kind of like a kind of like a frog.

Cooper: Frogging. No frogging.

Bryan Hollon: What what's what's up with that?

Cooper: I was talking more about my microphone, but it it is it is going around here. it's going

Bryan Hollon: Sorry.

Cooper: around here. My wife is sick. My kids I think are sick and I'm telling myself I'm not. So hopefully I I'll I'll try and clear it up. Sorry. How are you?

Bryan Hollon: All right. Well, we're going to be talking a little bit about love today. And I think we we can point out now that a spouse and children are a great challenge which enables us to grow to become more like God and his steadfast love. and so let that be a lesson. that you're you're being blessed right now.

Cooper: That's right. That's right. And that is what we're gonna be talking about today. It's related to that catechesis, right?

Bryan Hollon: Yeah, that's right.

Cooper: And in talking about this, I know for me certain things come to mind that may or may not be true as what it is. What is it exactly?

Bryan Hollon: Yeah, that's a good question. I there's there's so much we could talk about today. And so I let me start a little bit or very quickly with my own background in catechesis. like a lot of people, I I was not catechized as a child. I was discipled in a liberal mainline church, which meant, you know, we had those felt pads with Bible stories and whatnot. And my introduction to the Christian faith was kind of a menagerie of Bible stories that I was to do something with. And quite frankly, it wasn't until I finished my PhD that I began to sense that there must be a better way to teach the faith. and I kind of discovered catechesis along the way. And when I did, it made so much sense. I had sort of intuitively been going towards or moving towards teaching the basic elements of catechesis to my students at Malone University. and so when I discovered the Ministry of Catechesis, I thought, wow, you know. How how is it that I'm just now arriving at this? but catechesis comes from a Greek word, kateo, which is found at least seven times in the New Testament. And it means very simply, instruction. okay. And so, but it has like Like so many Greek words, it's a combination of two words, kata and ekeo. kata meaning something like Down or into it's kind of a directional word, whereas ekeo I think obviously suggests echoing or kind of resounding. And so catechesis means resounding down through the ages. and so Catechesis has always been that ministry that receives something from the past, preserves it, and then hand it's hands it down, kind of helps it to echo down through the ages. and so That is that's what catechesis is. It's it's instruction, but it's instruction in the faith once and for all delivered to the saints, in the the the objective faith that we all affirm.

Cooper: Yeah, speaking of echoes, I I've heard you say almost that exact phrase in previous conversations on this when you've spoken about how what we're discussing here, whether it's natural law or truth or beauty, that it is communicable, that it can be passed down. So that's ringing some bells for me. Hopefully it is for other

Bryan Hollon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good.

Cooper: people. But when it comes to this word catechesis, and sorry for the frogginess, when it comes to this word, and you mentioned another one. That seems similar. You said discipleship. What's the difference there? Is there a difference?

Bryan Hollon: There there is there is a distinction to be made, not necessarily a a difference, I don't think. But interestingly, I was not a part of the earliest conversations about sort of developing a catechism for the ACNA, but a lot of people at Trinity were. In fact, Trinity was one of the it was really was sort of ground zero for the development of the catechism to be a Christian. and when it was being developed, I know there were quite a few people in the Anglican Church in North America. Who didn't think it was necessary, and who sort of objected to the idea that we needed this old, stale, sort of didactic ministry. and the argument usually was that why, why wouldn't we just use a more, you know, obviously biblical word like discipleship? And I know a few of those kinds of people who've actually come around to the idea and embrace the ministry of catechesis completely. and so here's, I think, the important distinction to be made. Discipleship, of course, is what we all want to do. It's what Jesus did with his own believers. However, there is a sense in which discipleship can seem to be completely subjective. it's completely open-ended and it is relational. And so we imagine it as an an elder Christian forming a younger Christian in Bible stories and in the faith in a kind of open-ended way. And that is all really important because discipleship is in fact. Totally open-ended. It has to do with changing the heart and the mind, regulating one's emotions, growing in the virtues and putting on the gifts of the spirit and everything else. But what catechesis is, is it is a component within discipleship. And it is an absolutely necessary component within discipleship, which suggests that there actually is a kind of objective content. It really means that. Discipleship is not only open-ended, but there is actually a faith once delivered. And that faith can be articulated, it can be communicated very clearly, it can be received, it can be preserved, it can be passed down. And so the value of catechesis is that it makes sure that when a person is being discipled, they're also receiving the biblically faithful, orthodox faith of the apostles, because that is important. and we absolutely must have confidence that this faith can be passed down. And so that's what catechesis is for. It's what the church has always done to pass down the faith, and it's indispensable.

Cooper: you just mentioned there there's sort of an objective approach to catechesis where it's not as subjective as perhaps discipleship. What are the components of catechesis? Like what what are the parts and how do you how do you perform them well?

Bryan Hollon: It's been remarkably consistent through the ages, actually. there's there are now four components in our catechism, the ACNA's catechism to be a Christian. And those are first of all, the gospel itself, and then there's the creed, the apostles' creed in particular, and then the Lord's Prayer. Mixed in with the Lord's Prayer, we have some sacramental teaching. And then to complete it all, we have the Lord's, I mean, we have the Ten Commandments. Now, In the in the early church, you always had the first three components. The the the gospel, which Augustine would have called the narratio, the kind of narrative, then the creed, and then the Lord's Prayer. the Ten Commandments were

Cooper: Yeah.

Bryan Hollon: taught in various ways, but in the Reformation area, it becomes a formal component of catechesis. And so those those four pillars or windows into the whole are pretty consistent through the ages. And and that is what we find now in our in our own catechism.

Cooper: And could you just go back to the that first part you mentioned that Augustine calls the narratio ratio? I didn't get I

Bryan Hollon: The the Norazio, the the narratio the narratio I'm you know

Cooper: I did it twice. I didn't get it right with either one.

Bryan Hollon: Yeah. It's just the narrative. Yeah, yeah.

Cooper: Could you talk about a little bit Yeah, what but tell me a little bit about that.

Bryan Hollon: Well, in in Augustine's catechetical ministry, he would make sure, he wanted to make sure that catechumens, those who wanted to enter into the church, were instructed in the biblical narrative, beginning with creation all the way down to the apocalypse, so that they really knew the biblical story. And so You'll hear a lot of Christians today talk about the drama of Scripture or the great narrative of Scripture. That really is what Augustine was talking about. There's a kind of coherence to the biblical canon. And when you're entering into the church, you need to learn, you need to learn the Bible itself. and you need to learn certainly that Jesus Christ is the key and that his sacrifice, his atoning sacrifice, is the key to unlock all of it. And so, you in other words, you need to understand that our entry point into that narrative. is the gospel of Jesus Christ. And that is really well emphasized in in the ACNA's catechism to be a Christian, at from what I understand, J.I. Packer's insistence. And we can

Cooper: Yeah.

Bryan Hollon: be grateful for that.

Cooper: when it comes to this, like a lot of these parts of catechesis, it's easy to like read a list of them and for me at least, I think, yeah, I I know that stuff. And then

Bryan Hollon: Yeah.

Cooper: if somebody asks me like a question though, to like, okay, then tell that story, tell that narrative of the the whole Bible in five minutes, I'd be like, I don't know. Like what what

Bryan Hollon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Cooper: advice or guidance have you seen on on how to do that well with in maybe a short amount of time.

Bryan Hollon: Yeah, there are a lot of it's sort of alliteration or acronyms you can use. It really, so for instance, when I when I learned it, I learned creation, calamity, correction, consummation.

Cooper: Okay.

Bryan Hollon: sort of as the four components. And you can divide up the history in in a number of different ways, but creation, obviously, Genesis one and two. the calamity comes in Genesis three. and really the the calamity is Genesis three through chapter 11, where the Tower of Babel is kind of the culmination of the entire fall narrative. And then and then the correction begins in Genesis twelve, as God calls Abraham and and intends to set right what had gone wrong in the Garden of Eden. It all comes to a climax with the ministry of Jesus. And the culmination is of course apocalyptic or eschatological. and so that's one that's one one good way of doing it, but you can do it in a number of ways.

Cooper: Well thank you. and then just trying to connect it back to some of the conversations we've had in the past. I mean, we spent a lot of time talking about education with you know classical and then modern. thinking about abolition of man in Lewis, you know, what what sort of connection do you see between a lot of those ideas and that conversation to to this one on catechesis?

Bryan Hollon: Yeah. well Lewis's warning of a a of a context where subjectivism has completely taken hold and and where we really cannot we really cannot affirm any eternal truths or eternal moral values at all. Ironically, Lewis also warns that in the absence of convictions regarding absolute truth, others will come in and they will to bend us according to the truths that they have invented. And so what that means is that the culture itself is always catechizing us, always trying to form us, certainly always trying to form our children. And we live in an age right now where I think that the what what the church is up against and what parents are up against is is is more extreme than perhaps any other time in Christian history because of cell phones and because of social media. Our children are are no longer being brought up within the context of a family culture or a church culture. Rather, they have exposure to this massive online world where the values of the world are are assimilating them in really, really destructive ways. And so I think the abolition of man actually sort of is a prophetic text which sees all of this coming. But it means that the ministry of catechesis is more important now than forever than than it ever has been. Because we have to continually fight against this sort of counter or or that we have to fight against this worldly catechesis and offer a counter catechesis in the truth. And that's what catechetical ministry really is.

Cooper: Yeah, that that's really interesting. It makes me this is something I've thought about a lot too, but that's what's sort of frightening about the algorithm, right? Is that it's it's serving to you what it knows like you engage with. It knows what you desire. And if your desires aren't right, you might like because

Bryan Hollon: Yeah.

Cooper: I hear people complain all the time, like, my feed's a mess. I see all these terrible things. It's like, well,

Bryan Hollon: Yeah, yeah.

Cooper: it knows you look at that. There's a part of you

Bryan Hollon: Right. Right.

Cooper: that doesn't. And resents that. Like maybe that's your heart saying I shouldn't look at this, but you're still doing it.

Bryan Hollon: Yeah. Yeah.

Cooper: what what do you make of that? is that like may an especial, especially difficult thing for for Christians to think about formation? I mean, there's a lot of directions to go with this in in terms of like content and technology, like the forces

Bryan Hollon: Yeah.

Cooper: were up against, like that I guess that's where I got. I'm rambling here, but it's you know.

Bryan Hollon: No, that's

Cooper: There's been screens, there's been radio and TV, but used to be like the family, you know, it was like family television,

Bryan Hollon: Yeah.

Cooper: limited number of channels. And now you have these

Bryan Hollon: Hey, yeah.

Cooper: devices where it's entirely private. The parents may not know what's going on with the child. And you see all these tragedies occurring with bullying and and and things like that. where do I want to go with this here? I know I'm I'm kind of rambling a little bit here, but what I'm trying to get at your thoughts on how is like the algorithm and these technologies, what is their place in catechesis, in how our culture is shaping us through the algorithm?

Bryan Hollon: Yeah, homo and curvatus and say is a is a great Latin expression to to describe this sort of turn inward towards ourselves. And it it's always been a a problem. But I do think that the algorithm that you're talking about, the algorithms make it a problem on steroids. You know, you hear a lot about, well, if you're a Christian and you read, you you hear a lot these days about expressive individualism. Carl Truman's Book, The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self, really identifies this problem as one of the key problems of our age. is the problem that we see. you know, it's a kind of the Oprah Winfrey Oprah Winfrey you do you, you know, you you are the inventor of your own self. you, your, you're you do your truth. I'll do my truth. Well, think about what the algorithms are are doing for that, because literally, we do we do tend to believe these days that. That we're not, there's no external sort of truth which precedes us to which we must conform our lives. But then we actually see and are able to to create our own reality as the algorithm sort of immerses us in this constant feedback loop so that our own fears and our own vices, our own addictions are continually reinforced. And it's crazy. I actually had to get off of

Cooper: Yeah.

Bryan Hollon: social it. I mean, it it's it is.

Cooper: Yeah.

Bryan Hollon: It's it's it's a really, it's really demonic, I think.

Cooper: No right.

Bryan Hollon: you know, I've got certain fears. I I started reading I started w you know, I I was on Instagram, mainly to keep touch you know, keep in touch with my kids. And I had concerns about the Islamization of the West. I have some pretty serious concerns about what's happening in Europe as I think people rightly should be concerned. But it got to where all that I was seeing was videos on Instagram, reels on Instagram. about this issue and it really affected my mental state. And so I got off. I deleted my account. And I think that's why as counsel people need to get off of Twitter, even though I've gotten back on, I shouldn't have and I'm probably gonna get off again. because it it's not good for our mental health.

Cooper: Yeah, exactly. That's such a good that's that's exactly sort of the connection I was trying to to make there. So thank you for clarifying all of that. It's pretty, yeah, it's so it's a pretty scary force that we're up against as as Christians, as catechists in this culture. and so I guess in that respect, like that's actually kind of a simple answer to this question. In certain ways, catechesis is more challenging today than in times past. Did you say or no?

Bryan Hollon: I I you know, it's always dangerous to say that because evil comes and goes and God's common grace is with us still. but yeah, what we're up against is with with social media and the ubiquity of our sort of digital world is I think unprecedented and it is it is really hard. so many things are going on. You know, the the tendency of young people to cut off their parents today, which is just unheard of. And and it's because they are being they're being sort of conformed to or catechized by these other worlds and they don't even think they need their family anymore. it's it's a it's a really difficult environment.

Cooper: And and on the other hand though, what what is what is always difficult about catechesis? What what is like the main challenge you think that it stays constant through through all of the different ages?

Bryan Hollon: Well, there's never been a time when when the world you know the the world, the flesh and the devil has not been trying to conform people to the principalities and powers of the of this present age, you know. in Romans twelve, verse Romans twelve verse two, you know, we have that famous statement from Paul, where he says, Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your minds. he wrote that because in the Roman Empire they faced the same pressure. and he knew how seductive Roman gods and Roman idols were. and so it's it's a perennial temptation. sometimes the temptation is more subtle, sometimes less. It is not very subtle right now. And perhaps that's a good thing. perhaps it can galvanize us against against the world.

Cooper: with all of that said, you've talked about what catechesis is, the different parts of it. What is it ultimately trying to accomplish?

Bryan Hollon: Yeah. it is trying to accomplish assimilation. it it it wants us to be conformed to God in Jesus Christ. there's a wonderful there's a wonderful phrase in Mere Christianity where, and I'm not gonna get it exactly right, but Lewis says basically the goal of Christianity is to make us all little Christs. And that's that's the goal. It's not it's not just head knowledge, but head knowledge is important, but ultimately it wants our hearts and minds shaped. like the hearts, like the heart and the mind of Jesus Christ, to have the mind of Christ and to have the the the the love of Christ within us.

Cooper: And then I guess could if you could add a little bit here to like the character or the quality of this knowledge that it's trying to transmit.

Bryan Hollon: Yeah. Well, this is really important in Christianity. You know, head knowledge really does matter, but at the end of the day, it's important that we understand the God that we are being invited to know. And God is not one being among others of greater power and proportion, like a great big man up in the sky, you know, or like the man behind the curtain, the wizard of oz, sort of orchestrating things. but God is not a part of the furniture of the universe. Paul tells us in in Acts 17 that God is the one in whom we live and breathe and have our being. There's there are all kinds of high Christological statements, as in like in 1 Colossians and in Corinthians and in Hebrews, which tell us that Jesus Christ is the one from whom and to whom and through whom are all things. In him all things hold together. He is the Alpha and the Omega. We believe that God is utterly transcendent and yet imminent, and on and on and on and on. God is not a being even. In fact, that's what the traditionists said. God is beyond being. He is wholly other. God is not man writ large, Carl Barth once said. Now, what this means is that we cannot know God in the way that we know any object in the universe. And what we learn in scripture, and especially and in the Johannine literature, we learn that our deepest and truest knowledge of God comes from assimilation to God. In fact, Thomas Aquinas once said that all knowledge of God. comes from an assimilation of the knower to what is known, which means that we know God as ultimately we learn to think God's thoughts after him, having the mind of Christ. We, we, we learn to see things as God sees them. We learn to love others as God loves them. That is the deepest kind of knowledge because it means that we are rightly situated, rightly postured in relation to our Creator. to have a grateful heart is probably the the very first experience that one has in in their sort of assimilation to God. And that is to be rightly postured before God, who has given his life, the life of his son for us. so there's a lot more to say about that, but in in in 1 John, we get the most direct definition, 1 John chapter 4, verse 8, where We read that anyone who does not love does not know God because God is love. Well, according

Cooper: Mm.

Bryan Hollon: to what John is saying there is that love is assimilation to God, to love in the true sense, which means first to have a grateful heart, and then to desire the good of others, and to pursue that good actively, even to one's own detriment. That's the definition of love. And that's that's what it means ultimately to know God in the deepest sense.

Cooper: Yeah, that's that's awesome. I wonder if if you could like just go back and maybe slow down a little bit with like Aquinas' conception of like the assimilation between the knower and the known object. Could could you explain that a little bit more?

Bryan Hollon: yeah, I mean, our our hearts and our minds can be at war with God and we can simply misperceive the world that we live in. there's a another wonderful quotation from C. S. Lewis. I don't think I've quoted C. S. Lewis today, but it's actually it's the very last sentence in a debate, a debate essay or or just his a debate that he was conducting. at the Socratic Club at Oxford, called Is Theology Poetry? That's the name of the essay. and the very last sentence in that essay is, I believe in God, as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. And so to be assimilated to God is is to see is as God sees. it it it truly is to be. right it is rightly abide in God, again to use Johannine language. And there can be no other way. It's to know God from the inside, I guess you might say, which is how we are invited as adopted sons to relate to God from from within his family and from within the body of Christ, his church.

Cooper: Mm-hmm. And so then back to catechesis, how does how does catechesis preserve this connection between love and and knowledge?

Bryan Hollon: Yeah. Well, this isn't really obvious, but catechesis and the shape of it, and this is one of the things that I think is so fascinating. The shape of it is assimilate is assimilating. and so it begins

Cooper: Premium.

Bryan Hollon: first, well, it begins first of all with with the narrative. and so we have to know the basic story creation, fall, correction, consummation. And we have to know how we fit into that story. And it's really interesting, the Christian life, and especially Christian worship. Is a constant and ongoing invitation to take our parts in that story. And so for instance, when we are baptized, we we go down into the water and we and we come up. And when we do that, we are participating in a sacrament which was prefigured by all the water narratives of scripture. And then there's there's this wonderful prayer over the water, actually in the baptismal service in our BCPs. Which repeats all the water narratives, the creation narrative, the flood narrative, the crossing of the Red Sea and the Jordan and et cetera, et cetera, which suggests that basically when we go into that water, we're being incorporated into the holy people of God and into this long history. So that that long history and all that God was doing throughout the ages was for us. and now we are grafted in, we're we're cleansed and we're grafted in and we're made one in Christ. And so his his story is ours. the same is true with the Eucharist, by the way. It it's prefigured by all the sacrifices in Christ. But this is all to say the drama begs us for entry. we enter into that story. And then, and so that's what the whole purpose of of the narrative, the you know, learning the gospel is, as the is the first part of catechesis. Then we come to the creed where we were which is more contemplative. it is to sit back and reflect upon. The God who providentially orders that story that we are entering into. And so the creed is shaped Trinitarianly, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And of course, we enter in through Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God. Then we come to the Lord's Prayer, which is all of it's a covenantal kind of prayer. And if we were to go through every one of the petitions in the Lord's Prayer, we'll see. That it it presumes that we are being drawn into a relationship with this God, that we properly posture ourselves before him, and that knowing what he promises, we make his promises the aspiration of our own hearts. And so we pray thy in the middle petition, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven, meaning that the heart of Jesus Christ has become our heart, and that the things that we desire in this life are the things that have been promised to us. And so. Again, you can see how it's assimilative. Well, then we come to the Ten Commandments, which are summed up by Jesus Himself in the Greatest Commandment. And of course, if you if you go through the Ten Commandments, depending upon how you how you parse them out, the first four are all about our our relationship to God and what it means to love him properly. the second six are all about relating properly to our neighbor. and so these are summed up in the greatest commandment. from Jesus in response to the scribes, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself. And then he says, all the law and the prophets are summed up in this. And so it's the ultimate assimilation. it is, it is, it is embracing and abiding in the love of God. And so it's like the catechism takes the broadest picture and sort of continually goes in until until our hearts have been conformed to God. And that's the shape of catechesis.

Cooper: Yeah, that that's awesome. I I had recently come to the understanding of you know the Great Commandment as having like this vertical element and then the horizontal, right? Like the social and and then like our relationship to God. But I had not mapped that to like the pattern of the Decalogue or the Ten Commandments. That's there too, huh? That's crazy.

Bryan Hollon: Yeah. Yeah. yeah. In fact, there's this I I have a a PDF of this nineteenth century catechism and it has the Ten Commandments and they are in a heart shape. It's really, really cheesy. but it it I mean this has always been the church's understanding.

Cooper: I love that. It's stuff like that where or just like as I as I continue to learn, like I find some new sort of like sort of like prophecy or connection across the scripture, and it's just like stop, like I already believe,

Bryan Hollon: Yeah. Yeah.

Cooper: like stop, it's too much. but on this of just like God is loving here, like you know, like just the way we're talking about. obviously such an important it is the heart of it. how you know and we're talking about too is like love is this path to knowledge. What practices can help us cultivate that rightly ordered love?

Bryan Hollon: You know, really all of life is an opportunity or a test, you know, is a kind of medi is a means to grow in love. And so I I don't I'm sure there are Christian practices. I I can just tell you what has been helpful to me.

Cooper: Yeah.

Bryan Hollon: learning about love theologically has been profoundly helpful, because it it's kind of reflection, which enables me to step back and look at my relationships and assess them and to see what what opportunities are presented to me. And so I've, you know, reading C. S. Lewis's book, The Four Loves, where he describes the way that agape love sort of fulfills and perfects all the other love, you know, affection and brotherly love and erotic love. We one of the one of the things I did as a parent that that I'm I think was not the worst thing. you know, like every other parent, I have a million well my I have wonderful kids, actually I shouldn't Say these things, but but you you you never do enough as a parent and you and you always feel like you could have done better. But I taught my kids the four loves from C. S. Lewis. Just talked talked through it with them. and my oldest son, we talked about these things in high school, when he was pretty young. And when he got married a couple of years ago, I had the great privilege of officiating at his wedding. And it was just a classic when, you know, it was a we went right through the the prayer book service. very, very we were we were trying to avoid the rain. And so it didn't take more than 30 minutes. I I gave a very brief homily. It was a beautiful classic service. Everybody loved it. Almost nobody there were were very few were Anglicans. And what was really and so they their vows, everything they did was right out of the prayer book. But before the before the official wedding ceremony, they had written out vows to each other and they said them to each other. And I asked Harrison if I could share this a long time ago, and he allowed me to, and cla and so I've shared it class. But our our photographer was taking pictures of them when they were saying their vows to each other. And so I could actually see what was written on Harrison's page. And what I saw was one of the proudest things I've ever seen. And that is he was actually going through the four loves.

Cooper: huh.

Bryan Hollon: and and as he was making his vows to his wife, he was sort of explaining how it is that that agape is a kind of love that is not Thickle, you know, it doesn't come and go. it is the kind of love that I described a little while ago. But so certainly learning about it is important, but learning about it is it is important because every relationship that we are in, whether it's a friendship relationship, you know, or it's colleagues or whether it's a romantic relationship, is an opportunity to become more like Christ, who loved us. And so marriage is a sac, I think it's sacramental. In the sense that it is a profound opportunity to practice and to learn steadfast love, you know, love over a lifetime, which, if you are faithful, will actually enable you to grow as a disciple of Jesus Christ and become more like Christ. and again over a lifetime. And so again, every relationship is that way. All the things that we do, you know, the prayer book services are have all got the gospel shape about them. They all pronounce the the mercy of God over and over again. They they explain how it works in the cross of Christ. And so hearing that again and again is invaluable and and and should cultivate in us a grateful heart. Everything done rightly in the Christian life is aimed ultimately about about becoming more like Christ and therefore about becoming more capable of of God's love.

Cooper: Yeah, that's that's helpful I think because I I think increasingly just the the I the awareness that there's more than one type of love is is is increasingly difficult for people to sort of remember or know. We're not really taught these things. especially when I just look at like our culture, I mean it's primarily there's always exceptions, right? This is generalizing, but I mean for the most part the depiction of love is Eros. or it's and ev or even less than that. Sometimes it's not

Bryan Hollon: Yeah.

Cooper: even an erotic love, it's just like sheer sexuality, like just a physical thing where I I think that's like something Alan Bloom wrote about in the past, about just like the

Bryan Hollon: Interesting. I don't know.

Cooper: the the the shallowness and like despite everybody's sort of fascination and like obsession with sex, he found his students and this was in like the eighties, I think, or the seventies, who were actually

Bryan Hollon: Yeah. Interesting.

Cooper: like very star for like this true truly erotic love and he he discussed it a lot. He he he he read a pulled a lot from Plato obviously, but I don't know. That that it's just that strikes me as like a really valuable thing to equip your children with and to

Bryan Hollon: Yeah.

Cooper: even know that there is an agape love, that you have this capacity

Bryan Hollon: Yeah.

Cooper: and that when you experience it it's life-changing. is this And this is kind of connected to like the next question I wanted to ask is like, what type of advice or encouragement would you give to listeners today? I'm especially thinking of like parents or priests or just lay leaders. Would it be something on this just related to love? Or what

Bryan Hollon: well that I mean it's a it's a really important message and I I feel like I ought to qualify here really quickly, but you know, I don't wanna sound like John Lennon. You know, all you need is love. I

Cooper: Yeah.

Bryan Hollon: will never sing on this podcast again, guys. I am so sorry. but

Cooper: I never want to sound like Yoko Ono.

Bryan Hollon: There you go. I don't want to sound like John Lennon because that's not what we're saying here. to love someone means to correct them. to love someone means ultimately that you want them to come into a relationship with Jesus Christ. the kind of love that Jesus teaches us is a love which is framed and defined in the in the orthodox biblical faith. No question about that. And so I hope no one misunderstands what I'm saying. love is not a wet noodle. Okay. Love is love has boundaries, love is disciplined, love will discipline, but always lovingly. and so, and always with the intention of seeking the best of those that we know. There's this great quotation actually in The Life Together by Bonhoeffer where he he says, you know, if if you have enemies and you pray for them, Then they will be transformed so that they are no longer enemies, but sinners for whom Jesus Christ died. That's a profoundly loving thing. Okay. But it doesn't mean it's not just toleration. That is certainly not what we're talking about. And I'm sure everybody understands that, but just want to just want to say it. what I would, the advice that I would give to people is to not not focus so much on catechesis or the catechism, although these are really good things. but but think about it in terms of the ministry of catechesis. which is a ministry which is fundamentally about receiving the faith once and for all delivered to the saints, coming to know it deeply enough to communicate it in a compelling and clear way to other to other people. and so we we desperately need parents who are who are expert in the ministry of catechesis to their children. we need we need all pastors to be catechists in the sense of, Having a high appreciation, really valuing this ministry of catechesis because it is profoundly important. The the bishops in the greatest sort of eras of the church, whether it be the early period where someone like Augustine or Cyril of Alexandria or any of the other early church fathers, they were all catechists. and the same was true of the Reformation era, the great, the greatest times of Christian reformation and growth. have have seen the the ministry of catechesis highly prioritized. And so I would just say, prioritize this ministry, which doesn't just mean pulling out the catechism, but it should include that. But it it really requires a proper understanding of what the ministry of catechesis is. It is again indispensable.

Cooper: Yeah, that that reminds me of this article. This this episode is being recorded before the release of this, but by the time it's out, listener, there will be an article from Dr. Alex Fogelman here at Trinity in Mere Orthodoxy on the heart of the catechist. And I want to read a quote from it that I thought was awesome. so he's quoting Augustine in his instructing beginners in faith. And For those who aren't familiar, it's you know, this deacon writes to Augustine with this problem that he felt like he was just boring the bejesus out of the people he was trying to catechize, and he was sort of asking Augustine, like, how do I do this? And Augustine writes, you know, we are we're given a much more appreciative hearing when we ourselves enjoy performing our task. And he says, the difficult part of our task is not in giving rules about where to begin. Where to end the historical exposition, or about how the historical exposition should be adapted to different circumstances, or about when to use the shorter and when the longer form. No, our greatest concern is much more about how to make it possible for those who offer instruction in faith to do so with joy. For the more they succeed in this, the more appealing will they be.

Bryan Hollon: Amen. Yeah, that's great. That's great. I hope you'll ask me a question which allows me to talk more about Alex Fogelman and others here at Trinity, actually. Good.

Cooper: Yeah, why don't you tell me a little bit about Alex Solomon and others of Trinity here?

Bryan Hollon: Good. yeah, if I were if I were to recommend anything to our listeners, if if you're interested in the ministry of catechesis, I would I would actually start with Alex's recent book, which is titled Making Disciples, Catechesis in History, Theology, and Practice. he wrote a much bigger, more academic book on the on the on the subject of catechesis, but this one is really, really accessible to pastors, to laypeople, to anybody. Alex is currently the chair of the catechesis task force, and the the he's which is a provincial ministry that he leads. He's our associate dean of special programs. And he's only one of a number of people at Trinity who really specialize in catechesis. Another is our associate professor of theology, Joel Scandrette, who is currently the official steward of the ACNA's catechism. He worked very closely with J.I. Packer, as I think the associate editor editor on the catechism. And so he's the one who kind of makes sure that it's being published by the right presses and then it's available and all that kind of thing. Joel is is actually Joel is probably the reason I'm at Trinity. he was doing catechetical work a long time ago, and I got to know him for that reason. we became friends, and it was how I really began to know Trinity well. Jack Gabig, another one of our professors was on the catechesis task force. So was Leslie Thyberg. again, we we really value this ministry at Trinity, but for all the reasons that we that I have been describing here. And we are gonna hear from some of these people throughout throughout the course of this of this. Podcast.

Cooper: Yeah, and then beyond and beyond people from Trinity, who just all of Christian history, is there someone in the tradition that's been especially helpful for you in thinking about catechesis?

Bryan Hollon: Yeah, I I'm not a patristic scholar, but I have read and taught Augustine as a kind of theological generalist for many years. And so he wrote a number of the the the text that you quoted from his is probably the most important of his texts on catechesis. It's been highly influential. but other early church fathers again wrote catechetical texts. The reformers wrote catechetical texts. In in recent history, J.I. Packer and Gary Parrott wrote a book called Grounded in the Gospel, Forming Disciples in the Old Fashioned Way, which is a really, a really good book. our own catechism, which we've been referring to here, to be a Christian, is a is a great text. there's there are really rich and deep and and a multitude of resources for anyone aspiring to the ministry of catechesis.

Cooper: Yeah, before I started at Trinity, I I'd read Packer's hist I think it's heritage or history of Anglican theology, his heritage. And he ends with like this call for more catechesis. I was like, That's a great idea. And then I get to Trinity and it's like, Yeah, you guys have been on it for years now. so that was cool. Any other resources? I know like there's the app, like the Catechism to be a Christian from the AC.

Bryan Hollon: Yeah, there there is an app now that I think just I've I don't have the app, I should, but it has the whole catechism to be a Christian on it. And it's a really simple way. It's a simple way to actually catechize your children if you want to do it that way. it's a good resource if you have basic questions about the faith. And so I would I would recommend it. I I believe it was produced

Cooper: And yeah, I

Bryan Hollon: I b I believe it was produced by the catechesis tack task force. under Alex Fogelman's oversight.

Cooper: And catechesis, like it's it's obviously a big buzz word around Trinity and the ACNA currently. There's a lot of discussions about the need for it. Is this a broader trend? Like are other denominations focused on catechesis or especially like and if there is, like is there a difference between them? You know, are like mainline Protestants talking about this or what what's like broadly what's going on?

Bryan Hollon: I don't think the the main line talks about it much. It doesn't really fit with the Ministry of Catechesis doesn't fit with at least the liberal mainline. It's not, I don't

Cooper: Mm-hmm.

Bryan Hollon: think, very interested in this. But after J.I. Packer's book came out to be grounded in the gospel, there there it seemed like there was quite a bit of activity towards an increased emphasis upon catechetical ministry. And so Tim Keller's ministry produced what is called, I think, the New City Catechism. And there's an app for that. I've not heard a whole lot about it recently. and honestly, I should know more about this, but I I I don't. I know that that catechesis is is popular among some circles in the A CNA. My hope, quite frankly, is that more people take an interest in this in the ACNA. We actually have a a demon, a doctor of ministry cohort focused on catechesis right now. And hopefully their tribe will expand and will keep that cohort going and and prepare many, many people over the years for this ministry.

Cooper: Great. Well, thank you, Brian, and thank you all for listening to the Holy Order Podcast. We hope if you've enjoyed the conversation that you'll subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, leave a review and reach out. Let us know what you think or if you have any suggestions or questions. We always love hearing from you all. and yeah, Brian, you wanna close us out with prayer?

Bryan Hollon: Happy to do it. thanks, Cooper, and thank you all. Let us pray. Lord Jesus, Master, Carpenter of Nazareth, on the cross through wood and nails you wrought our full salvation. Wield well your tools in this your workshop, that we who come to you rough hewn, may be fashioned into a truer beauty by your hand, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit live and reign, one God, world without end. Amen.