Bear Rinehart: The Long Surrender to Freedom

0:00I got to get this out and I'm sorry you got to be the one to hear it. You know, for having been public for 20 years and been successful as a commercial artist. Do you feel known? I felt like there was a standard out there that I couldn't possibly live up to. We're all the time just trying to be something for somebody. It's because you're worried if you told this person the truth, they wouldn't love you. A. Lot of anxiety is shame based if you really know me.

0:24If you really know who I am, then more than likely you're not going to accept certain parts of me. If I had to write on the outside of the house, just painting massive letters, all the problems I have to get rid of them, I'm ready. That's what you just did with this album right there. You did it in a way nobody's done it. What does take the pressure off is that I don't have to be anything. There's no experience in life for me that's been, you know, as great the weight of what was lifted when you get to that place. That's when the healing journey started for me. That has been absolute freedom of me. It's been really more than helpful. It's it's vital.

0:58We've been taught everything except how to be human. I'm Miles Adcox, and this podcast turns a raw experience into practical wisdom. So if you're ready to stop performing your life and start participating in it, you're in the right place. This is human school. Today's guest is the front man of Need to Breathe, a band whose music has filled rooms, arenas and lives for more than two decades, with their incredible rock sound and vocals that carry grit, soul and conviction. But beneath the anthems is a songwriter with a rare gift. Bear has a way of putting words to the things we usually keep tucked away.

1:40He spent his life learning how to turn complicated feelings into melodies that help the rest of us feel seen and a little less alone. His work has always been rooted in truth over commercial formula, and over the years that honesty has come with real weight. Bear has been open about the cost of growth and the pressure of leadership, and he's continued to do the quieter work of staying connected to what matters by understanding his own story, loving his family well, and letting music come from an honest place. From global stages to the table we share today, Bear carries a quiet humility and a tenderness that doesn't fit the usual picture of a rock star front man. He's widely regarded as one of the most powerful and distinctive vocalist of his generation, and at his core, Bear is an artist.

2:28Artist. Deeply expressive, emotionally honest and unmistakable from the first note. His voice has a way of making big rooms feel intimate and hard truth feel hopeful. Please welcome Bear Reinhart. Thank you man. That is, that does embarrass me a little bit. I try, you know, in these things, I try to personalize them a little bit because obviously the, the name of the podcast is called human school. And I've, I've had this unique opportunity and these guys kind of afforded me to be around a lot of interesting people that do really interesting things with my profession and my social circles too. I know our social circles overlap a little bit, but often I get to know the people behind the stages and the platforms. And it's one of the coolest things ever to understand the human behind the art because there's always a little mystique around you guys.

3:18And I had just mentioned before we started that I've always there's a little mysterious. There's things about Barry. I just I don't know, but I've been a fan of your work for a long time. And so I hope today I'm excited to get to know you a little bit more, but I'm also excited for our audience to get to know you and I can't wait. We'll get into it a little bit, but I can't wait to talk about what's coming. This project is right around the corner because I've I will honestly say I I'm AI did my R and DA little late, but I just got through it.

3:43So it's it is fresh and I am moved by this, this album that I just listened to. So it's going to be hard to turn back and start with getting to know you and not jump right into that. But I'd rather do it that way if you're cool with it. I just want to learn a little bit more about you. And but I will say there's something that stood out to me about you when we were, I don't know if you remember this, but it was I don't even know how many years ago it was. It maybe like 5 or 6 years ago we were in Florida and you were down there with a group of guys that you spend a lot of time with.

4:14And I think y'all were down there. I don't know if it was a retreat or if y'all were just down there on a golf trip to hang, but we've got a few friends that overlap. And I got invited to come to a dinner that y'all had that night. And the dinner turned into kind of a, a guitar pool in a way. And everybody's passing it around after dinner and playing. And, and there was some real talent in that group. I mean some legendary songwriters and artists in that group. But I saw it go around and, and you're hearing massive songs and incredible stories and it was all moving. It always is.

4:43It's what music's always done for me. But then it got to you and the whole room went, I mean, it was like the minute you you open your mouth and started to sing and play what you played. You didn't tell a story about it. Your story was the song. That's one of the things I think unique about you is that you didn't set it up. The song set itself up. But when you did that, the whole it, it did turn the whole room into an emotional experience. And we were kind of there, if you think about it, to dip in and out of spiritual emotional things. So it's a part of the conversation. But I felt like your music ushered in something and I it stamped something for me then is that man, I want to know that guy.

5:16And and I know we all move super fast and I'm I, I'm guilty of have a lot of good acquaintances and I don't nurture my closest friendships that much. So that was one thing that stood out to me. And you, you actually said that in a lyric in one of your songs and not quite like that. You said it much smoother than I did, but that was something I took away right away and I related to and I'm just curious if we could start there. Is it you know, do you, do you feel like you know for having been public for 20 years and sharing your art and been successful as a commercial artist? Do you feel known by your your base and do you feel known in? General yeah, that's a good no, I think. I think, I think the last couple years it started to, I've started to peel away a little bit of sort of a barrier. You know, we came up in a weird time 20 years ago. It's like, you know, people wanted to call us a Christian band and all that kind of stuff.

6:14So there was always a guard about what I said about my faith because it felt like, well, that would, that would line me up with all this stuff I didn't necessarily want to be lined up with. You know, it's always like I want people to like the music for that. And if they like it, 'cause I hear the faith part of it, great. But I didn't want it to be only that. And, and so I think I'll develop this habit of almost a fear of like, don't give them too much because you might get pigeon holed a certain way or you might. And I think also being a preacher's kid, there was an element, you know, like I, we were a Pentecostal church when I was a kid and my dad, it would just kind of get wild a little bit, you know, and so.

6:51I dated Pentecostal. Yeah, one time we went to a weekend revival and I was. Now keep in mind, I was a Church of Christ kid, so we didn't even do instrumental music or nothing, But there's similarities in the two. But I remember that first weekend, my hair was blown back. When I saw it, they're different, you know, we and I was used to it in a way, but also had friends in public school. I'm bringing them like we don't come to church for me, you know, and I'm like, Dad, don't do anything weird. Just just keep it, you know, And if you do something weird, explain it at least, you know.

7:18So I think I've always had a little bit of that of like, you know, we were kind of the outsiders. We had that record, you know, it's like we always felt like that. We play this like sometimes we get build it like a Christian festival or something. And I would hear the preacher get up there, some guy between the bands and say something like let's stomp on the head of Satan and all this. And I was like, it freaked me out so much because I was like, that's hang on a second.

7:41These people, What if they don't know this story and this? They're not they're not rocking with this. Exactly. Maybe that doesn't feel, you know, that's not the way to communicate. It probably felt like a fan club for something as opposed to like really like looking for people who are hurting. It's always felt a little bit of that in there. And also I'm painfully shy, like people, you know, people that know, I'll have people that I know for a year before they see me play and then they can't believe what happened on the stage 'cause I'm loud and I sing hard and all that to the point of like, I've gotten so much better at it.

8:16But you know, I, I used to not be able to go to a wedding, that kind of thing. If I'm in a reception or something like that, a lot of people I don't know, I'll get hives. The whole I mean, it was that kind of, you know, I'm past that for the most part now, but that's but so there's a piece of that too. You're in an interview and then it's been the lights come on. It's like, oh, oh, oh, I don't know, you know, So I think I think that comes across as a mystery in a good way sometimes.

8:40But another way it was just like, maybe I'm like hiding some things that that are important about the music that people might want to know. And I think for me to owning it toward of my own integrity and things has become so much more important. Even if it means that people don't like the music because of something or even if they want a pigeon hole a certain way or even if they, you know, they want to judge it. It's more important for me to be myself every day. You know what I mean?

9:11And I think that that to me has been, has started to happen more and more, which I feel, you know, has felt really good. You know, conversations like this, I felt way more now like I'm looking forward to them as opposed to where I used to be like. I got to go do this. Get prepared for this, you know, and see what I can make, make sure I aim it in the right way. Now I'm just kind of, I do feel much more open about it. I think that's one of the beautiful things about these formats which I was hesitant to jump in it. I've been in it before several years ago with a Co host and but I only did a couple seasons before I had our first kid and we had our first kid and then I just, I shelved it because it was just life just turned upside down and then added another and but I missed it and I couldn't.

9:54And I'm a consumer. I like long form conversation, but I, I missed it enough that I wanted to try to get back in. And of course now it's wildly flooded. You know, everybody's got a podcast. But I do think the way that, and I've been around your community for a long time and kind of been a advisor to a lot of artists and saw the traditional old school way to do promo and it always felt like you need to take a little bit of a shower after it. You know and.

10:18And then now one of my favorite things about these is it's, it's a it's a, it's a conversation. And you realize because you, you're, you're in somewhat of a dehumanizing profession and, and that people know you for your art, don't necessarily know you as a human and probably wouldn't know that. And I don't know if you'd call it, just tell me if you would you call it a, a barrier. But you explained symptomatically like you have some of the underpinnings of social anxiety or maybe had that, would it fit in that category? OK.

10:48And it, it, and you immediately traced the root back to it, which is it came from an honest place. It sounded like as a young kid. And I can relate to it that you knew that. Well, you, you correct what I miss. I'll throw a couple things out there that I got a hunch on. And then you correct me if it's wrong, but it felt like you had a hunch that there was some value in your upbringing in the, in the church you grew up in. Good things happen, but often it felt out of touch with what was happening outside of it. And you instinctively upfront, we're like, man, how do I be a bridge for some of these people so that we're not running them off with a good information?

11:22And, and by doing so, you kind of have to figure out what can I reveal versus what should I not reveal in order to be a neutral presence. That's been a lot of my life in my role is I felt like I've had in some ways, I put myself in a Switzerland place. And now that this is, is kind of taken off and, and gotten more eyes and ears on it than I thought it would in the amount of time, I thought I'd have more time to get better at or getting decent at it before anybody cared. And I'm thankful, thankful for all of you listeners. But I do feel this pressure now because more people are asking who's the guy behind the podcast? And I'm and I'm like, I've never had to reveal that nobody's ever asked me about my position about this. I'm way more comfortable being behind the curtain. And I'm curious about that barrier, even if you want to call it social anxiety.

12:08And it sounds like you've made some inroads to improve there. Tell me a little bit about that, about maybe where you the origin of it, which you kind of drew one thread and then what are some things you've done to be able to navigate because I make up you and I aren't the only two people that have have dealt with that. It's probably a lot of people listening that can can relate. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, I mean, it's a obviously it's a massive issue when you do what we do. You know, it's like it, it's maybe there's some jobs I wouldn't that wouldn't come into play that much. I could just, you know, I think the other thing is that it's obviously shame somewhere in there, you know, that that is probably I deal with the most.

12:49You look at like that conservative Christian background. You know, Dad's a preacher. That's like, it's very easy to become bad in that world, not because they want you to be or that's that's they're not setting out to do that, but because it's so, you know, that's it was just, I mean, it was the 80s too. You know, I might tell people all the time, like it's just, it is the craziest, like do not do this or else, you know, And so there, I think there, that was around me all the time.

13:17So I think I felt, I felt like there was a standard out there that I couldn't possibly live up to. And I, I was looking around and everybody said that they were living it up to weren't, you know, I was a preacher's kids. I I heard the conversations that were happening, you know, the counseling sessions and those kind of things like, man, this is messed up and these dudes are acting like everything's fine, you know, So I think, I think growing up in that world, certainly confused a little bit. And I think even with the faith part, it was like, how do I reconcile that, you know?

13:52And so for me, you know, one part of it was there's this guy, Tim Keller, you know, preacher, you know, it's like I started listening to his podcast. It's been 10 years ago, probably on the road. And I wasn't telling it. Nobody in the band knew I was listening to it. I was just like listening in the back, you know, the band or whatever. And, and that gospel started making sense to me, you know, this idea, this we're all broken, you know, and now that I've gone through so many elements of the, of the recovery, even like I've, I've got a men's group, it's kind of like uses a, a as as part of what we do. And that idea of like, we all walk in there powerless. That is like, that has been absolute freedom to me. You know what I mean?

14:37It's like we, we think of freedom as like a, I used to think of it, it's like this like T-shirt with a bird on it or something, you know, motorcycle, I don't know. It's by yourself basically. And for me that was always like, that's the sort of the rock'n'roll thing too. It's like the rebellion kind of, I do what I want, you know, And it's a lonely place, you know. And so I think that that's probably more recent in the last, you know, year even that's felt like, man, it's OK to walk in and go like, I just don't have what it takes. And that's amazing.

15:09When I go, I can give this to God, I can give this to the people that are close to me. I can kind of like be like, OK, let's start there. And it's amazing what positive things happen after that, how you're able to operate, you know, So I would say, yeah, I don't know if that's, that's a great way to answer that question, but it's like, I feel like it's a big span of 20 years of, of social anxiety for me. But what does take it the pressure off is that I don't have to be anything. You know, I think that's happened in the music business too.

15:40It feels like the number one question I ask my manager. I'm like, but do we have to, you know, he's like, we need to do we got to do this. I'm like, but do we have to like. And so many more artists that are inspiring to me now are finding careers in ways to do it without that, you know, forever. You were talking about like, you know, interviews and stuff. It was just like, I mean, I remember being a kid of 20 something, we have a pop single or whatever and you go into the radio station.

16:07I'd at this point I don't think I'd drink, you know, like I'm just like small town kid, like a pretty green and and the guy's like, you want to go to the strip club for lunch, you know, And I was like, what disadvantage or an agent and a radio guy. Yeah. And he wants to use, you know, the labels money to take us out to the strip club for lunch. And I was like, I mean, it just blew my mind completely. But then you're like, well, I can't say, you know, we didn't go, but I just like, but you're kind of but you, but it's a weird spot to be in.

16:36Like, no, you're trying to make up excuses of why you're not going to go because you don't want to lose the radio play of that thing or whatever. There's so much of that, like, you know, being a small town, sort of southern humble kind of thing. Like we, we just made so many mistakes and I feel like we're all the time just trying to be something for somebody. And it's been so encouraging to me. Like there's a friend of mine in this band right at Clay Strays. And Brandon is just like the sweetest guy. And they and they, you know, I, I don't think he'd mind me saying it, but they've, they've sort of, they've worked hard at it, but sort of stumbled into how big they are, you know, and they've done it how they wanted to do it. They're completely honest about it. It's like so refreshing to me to be around it. And I was like how that's such a, that's a good lesson for all of us doing this.

17:25Like if the music is good and if you're true and honest about it, like people will find a way to it. I feel like that being bad, not good enough was contributing to like, well, I better do this 'cause they're doing it. I better do. You know, all the stuff around the music was personal and sacred to me. But it was once that got released and then it was like, Oh, no, now I got to go spend a year doing, you know, so sorry that was a lot just dumped on you.

17:50But that's. No, I, I'd rather hear the story then, and I think other people would too, because I, I do agree that a lot of anxiety is shame based and not all of it, but a lot of it is. And social anxiety certainly can fit that category. If you really know me, if you really know who I am, then more than likely you're not going to accept certain parts of me. And you can imagine if you've spent a lot of your developmental years internalizing emotion and compounding stress, but not a healthy outlet to say, here's who I am in this environment, then of course that's going to only get bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and gets harder and harder.

18:30And I, I too have been involved in lots of recovery circles and still AM. And one of my, and I, and I also grew up in, in church and, and still am a believer. And, and, but I've, I've been on a journey for 15 years. I've gone through, you know, I know this has become a new popular term and I'm hesitant to even say it because it means so, so much different things to so many people. It's just deconstructing, you know, kind of your faith. But I've gone through that experience of, I really was searching for more of a relational experience that I could feel seen versus the set of rules I had to follow and try to figure out if I could ever measure up to them.

19:06And I used to, I used to hear this in, in anonymous rooms years ago. And even now I've heard it from a couple pastors, which is if you cause a lot of anonymous meetings, I'll call it anonymous, narcotics Anonymous, you just pick your poison. They are hosted in basements of churches, which is kind of cool. And there's kind of, you know, unique irony there if you really think about it, which I, I'm thankful to all the churches that open their spaces to anonymous meetings because it's a self funded program, you know, so there's no, so anywhere we can meet is, is awesome.

19:37But I used to hear that if you want to, if you want to hear about miracles, go upstairs. If you want to see miracles, go downstairs. Yeah. And for me, that's been true. And as I've experienced and participated in certain anonymous meetings over the years, I've always thought, boy, if the church could feel a little bit more like this. I think a lot of pastors say that now too. They're yeah, yeah, I think that's catching there's for whatever reason, the timing of it's finally here when it's. Like, and I don't know that it's as simple as if if Christians could be more like Alcoholics.

20:06But just that statement alone is the thing I love about recovering the recovering community is the secrets have run their course and and what you see is what you get. So much so that I'm going to, I'm going to introduce myself and maybe 2 words after my name, I'm going to I'm going to let you know about my biggest ailment. I'm Miles and Alpha, whatever that is. And there is something so freeing about that. I mean, I think the, you know, it makes me think when you're saying that it's just like I this going through this process the way I have and I've been, it's there's probably been several times in my life where I felt like, OK, this is the bottom. You know, like where you get to this place where like this is not working.

20:50Like this shame cycle thing working as hard as that white knuckle and everything being as hard as I can and then ending depressed and it getting worse and deeper and deeper and just being like you get that place where you're like, you know, and I used to think of it kind of like maybe there's a situation. It's like a certain number of whatever it is, you know, luckily I didn't have any of these. DU is it's like you hear that name means a lot. It's like, well, I got the 6th DODUI and I was like, maybe, you know, whatever. It might be different.

21:18It's like, you know, I think that's like, I always thought it was a situation. It's so much more change your heart and mindset to go. I told my wife was, you know, probably 8 months going through some crazy stuff and I was just like, I was like, if if I had to write on the outside of the house, just painting massive letters, all the problems, I have to get rid of them. I'm ready. I was like, you can put liar out there, alcoholic, you could put whatever anything you want, arrogant, you know, whatever.

21:51I was like, I'm just, that's the, to me, that's the bottom. And it feels, God, man, it feels like the world of the weight of the world was lifted when you get to that place of like, man, I'm carrying all this stuff because I'm worried about other people's opinion of me and whether they'll let me, like you said, or, or just like, well, I have a career still. It's just so many reasons why we carry this stuff. But it felt like to me, and now I'm just like, how even if somebody's not going through some major addiction like that, I'm always like, please, like it's the first conversation I have with friends. I'm like, you know, like, think about it, if you could, you get to a place where you could say like, I don't care about all of that.

22:34Like I could, you could get rid of the, you can move past these things. If you just could admit it, you know, start that and then admit it to the people you love and then try to make amends and, and really get into community with people that are also OK with all this stuff. I was like, man, life is on the other side of that. And so that's what it made me think of when you're talking about that. I just think that's the part of the church thing that doesn't. It's like it's been so much about appearances for so long. And obviously when you're a preacher's kid too, that's another thing you learn.

23:02You know, I had AI had some abuse, sexual abuse when I was a kid and it happened at a church camp. And so my dad had run this church camp. And I only bring it up to say that like the thing that I've only realized in the last year or two, one of the takeaways from it was that we kind of everybody kept it quiet. Then the reason was, well, this might affect the ministry negatively or it might, you know what I mean? So imagine what that kind of baggage you know when it comes.

23:35At the time, as a young as a kid, you disclosed it to the people and and. Yeah, and they kind of like sent the, it was a counselor at the camp. They sent him away, but there was no like legal kind of things. And I didn't get any help from, you know, beyond just like, you know, that's not good. But we should, you know, it was that kind of and you know, there's no, I'm like, well past the sort of victimhood part of that, it feels like to me. But it but it did hit dawn on me again of like, Oh man, how much am I wrapped up now about like being careful about what the church says or they're about the appearances thing. Do I really want to be a part of it that I want to say even if I believe in God personally at home, do I like that? I want to say that publicly because what it what would that mean?

24:18How many people have been hurt by that and all that? So it just got very. So anyway, whether I'd like solve that or not, I just I think that was very illuminating to me to just see the connection and it feels, man, it feels freeing to go like, but I can't fix that. I can't, I can't be, I can't be the like voice of what's good or bad about the church. I can't be the, you know, of all the experiences you've had. I can't explain it. Like I have my experience and, and for me, God's been a pretty huge part of it here, you know, the whole time in different, in different ways. But now in the sense of like the only person I've ever said everything to and felt the most love and forgiveness from when I mess it up the most was is God.

25:07You know what I mean? That, that that's the relationship right there of the example of what I really want from everyone else. You know, maybe it's impossible to get. So I think for me, like that's probably that's more open. I've been about that, you know, in my whole career and it but it's just because it's true to my experience. It's like it's, it feels very real to me. Well, I got, I'm well, I guess those that are watching, if you're hearing it, you may not see it, but I'm, I got a little, I'm getting a little emotional.

25:34I'm feeling, I'm feeling it right here in my throat, primarily because I around the, I don't, we didn't even ask the age and I don't want to ask the age unless you want to share the age range because I know that could get certain specifics out there, but I think it would be at a similar age. I experienced the same thing. You took it a step further than I did and that you talked to an adult about it. I didn't even do that. I just felt there was nowhere to go. And it took it oddly.

25:58You were so honest with your story. But then when you flipped it to where you were saying the one person I, I told I talked to you about everything was was God. And you said it in such an endearing way as if that's where you go when you need ultimate grace and empathy. But I remember at that time thinking that's the last person I can tell. So when you first started sharing that story, I was feeling connected to the young you at that age. Anytime I talk and I've I've worked with sexual trauma survivors my whole career and it still hits home because I just know what that loss of innocence at a certain age can do. And there's a lot of people that never find their way back. That's been the rest of their life either over performing, underperforming, lost, hidden on and on and on. And thankfully I get, you know, with what I do it, we get to see a lot of them and try to help redeem their stories. But I, it's interesting how you, you held up a mirror for me in that moment.

26:52And I, I was thinking about your little dude, whatever age he was at church camp. And then I thought about my little guy. And I thought, man, I never thought about taking it to God at that time. And even to this day, I've done all the, the therapy work you could do, you know, around that piece. And I feel a tremendous amount of freedom. I'm so much out of the victim Part 2, but I still don't know that I've had a moment where I just really talk to God about that experience and how much that impacted my relationships going forward. Yeah, it's, you know, my, my experience has been when I've had these bottom kind of, I have a grandmother. It's like the like the greatest lady, church lady, you know, piano lady, all that.

27:31She's always been. And so when I 15 years ago, I went through a kind of a bottom moment for sure. And I just remember riding around being like, I should tell my mom Nell, you know, she'd like, if I could just tell her. I can't tell anybody else, but I bet she could handle it. You know, it's like, so I, I definitely understand the feeling of like, you know, not wanting to. And, and probably for me, because I did, I was like 8 when this happened. I did tell when there was like this, you know, we talked through it and whatever when, you know, I got, I had so crazy situation.

28:05I was went to a private school after I was home schooled and then I was in AI was in 6th grade with a class that was all six to 12th graders. So I'm, I'm 1 of 20 kids in a six to 12th grade class, which is obviously not great. Go to public school in 8th grade, get bullied pretty hardcore. First day of school. I'm, I'm walking back from recess, get elbow in the back ahead breaks my class, you know, like I'm a kid, you know, and I didn't tell my parents then. So I learned the lesson of I don't know that they're going to, if they can handle this.

28:38So in a lot of ways I would say like identify with that fact of like when I went to them. But yes, they were a safe place at the time, but I don't I didn't buy it that they can help, you know. And so that that certainly led to like, you know, a lot of the sort of secrecy that you would expect, you know, just like I don't, I better not tell anybody this is mine to carry, you know, and there's a funny, you know, when I'm in those meetings sometimes or counselor or something, I'll I'll be like you rationalize as part of that same cycle thing, you know, and you rationalize like, you know what?

29:12I'm going to do the noble thing, you know, I'm going to take all this horrible stuff like, and I'll just if I if I can keep that from the people close to me, then at least it'll just be me. That's, you know, which is insane because it's coming out sideways all the time and you're hurting people that you love while you're trying to like protect this, you know. So I think I do think that sort of confession, you know, admission, you know, those things are, is like, I mean, you've been around it so many times, but it's like the dam breaks, right?

29:45And, and, and I, I've got boys little, I've got 10-8 and five. And so, you know, I'm always tell them. I tell them don't lie, you know, of course, but then I try to tell them, like, why do we lie? You know, and get into that thing of like, it's because you're worried if you told this person the truth, they wouldn't love you. You know, I try to get through that. It's like we're going to love you no matter what, buddy. Like we need to, the quicker you handle this, the better you're going to feel better. You know, we can help, you know all this. So I'm sure we're not doing that perfectly, but that's, that's, you know, really important.

30:17To me, I got well, 2 two things. One, I want to share one more part about something else just got illuminated to me, which was I was trying to think of why, you know, why I didn't feel like I could at the time. And I I think it was more I had had a similar experience and, and look, we're not here to bash religion at all. We're just telling our personal experience and, and, and I think it's super well intended, but it went through a phase where it was really rule driven and there's certain pockets where it still is.

30:48And for me, I, I felt even as a, you know, a 11 year old kid that I had a big part in it. And I really thought I'd disappointed God. And I thought if I say this out loud, he's going to hear it. And I felt so much shame that I felt responsible. You know, I really felt like it was my fault. And a lot of you out. Well, I know the statistics I don't want in four of you that are listening to this podcast have experienced some type of sexual abuse and you're talking to two two guys that tripped into that. I didn't know that about your story. You didn't know that about mine.

31:21But we're 10 minutes into a conversation and got right into it. And to me, I feel like I trust you that much more so much. I'm sharing some of my story with you because you led with it and there are people out there we didn't know this was going to happen. And we're sitting down for a podcast to talk about a new album and get to know each other a little bit more. And suddenly we found this common and, and you can too. I really want to say that if you're listening out there, because that I said alone with that for so long, this is not the first connect I've had around that story.

31:52Obviously I've had different connects over the 20 years I've been in some type of recovery. But but I just want to say that because I know a lot of you feel alone and a lot of you likely feel like it might be your fault and you have nowhere to go. There is one person that will hold that story and not try to change it. They're not going to put an agenda or advice in front of love and empathy. It may take a minute to find so much, so you may have to tell them what you want. Can you just hear me as I share this story? I don't need a solution.

32:17I just want to talk to you. And if you can't take that risk yet, even if you could just put it, write it in a journal, just get it out of you because that's when the healing journey started for me. Anything you'd want to share with the eyes and ears that might be? Yeah, man. You know, I think, I think it's easy, whether I brought up the kid thing, it's like it, you know, there's this thing of the most devastating thing with, of parenting to me, you know, is watching them go and like they, you know, they're struggling. They won't talk to you about it.

32:47It's just like that's the most helpless thing. It's like, it's like, I mean, I, you could not disappoint me. I mean, you know what I mean? Like you, I want to, I, I can, I'm, I'm, you know, I could see I've been through what you're going through. I can see the pain in it. And I think I think the truth is most people are like that. Not everybody, but most people. I would say 9 out of 10 times when I've gone into a conversation thinking I'm about to end this relationship with the truth that that relationship has gotten 100 times stronger. Come on, you know, it's just, it's just people they are capable of holding that, you know, they are capable of loving you.

33:27Not everybody. I'm not saying go around. I don't, you know, I'm not the reason you probably don't know about about me is because I'm like, I'm not, I'm not one that's like, I don't want to go dump all this on social media and some in a in a conversation. That's not a conversation, but saying that I think you find, like you're saying people that you could trust and talk to about it. I I, I think you all I can say is like, you can't imagine the, the relief he just, you know, I don't know you had that experience, but just like of going, man, I can't carry this anymore Here. The the the weight that comes off from that and the freedom that comes from that is there's nothing, no experience in life for me that's been, you know, as great and that's a heck of a distinction.

34:09I. Want people to hear 'cause I think when, when we're dealing with an internal struggle based on an external circumstance at any point in our life, you often think you need growth and, and the people around you think you need growth because they're witnessing your struggle. But you don't want growth when you're in that struggle. You want relief. And relief has got to come for growth, for growth to even potentially start. And relief is on the other end of of truth and.

34:35That's really well said. You said something else about the kids and I had a moment that I related to. It was last night, actually. I was on the couch and I let my up stay. I let my son stay up late 'cause I was watching Super Bowl and he's a big football fan. I am too. And we were and I have been saying to him over and over again, you can talk to me about anything. And I guess we hope as a parent I tell you everything. And but he started, I had just had, we just got back from a trip where it was a lot of work for me to pull off. I mean, it was like a lot of flights and a lot of challenging, but it was to tee him up to have a really surreal experience with the some of his heroes. He's a sports fan.

35:12We got to do some cool stuff and I was tired, you know, I was just tired. I was barely hanging on at the end of the Super Bowl last night. We were watching it and he brought in in another one of his buddies went it's one of my best friends was out with us too. And he brought up being he we didn't use the word jealous. He said I don't know that I want to go on any more trips with this this friend and instead of me being open and curious about wonder why I immediately felt like, are you kidding after three days of me wearing running, I mean, you're going to complain about the trip. I guess you don't want to go on any more trips. I immediately took it personal with an 8 year old and I thankfully I caught it pretty quick, but he's you know what his response was.

35:53I thought I could tell you anything. Right there, it's that. Subtle. So I just want to say that to parents out there and I'm, I look, I said, I've been in the psychology space for 20 years and I had kids and everybody started asking me questions about parenting. I was like, I do not want to become a parenting expert because I, it just feels like a set up from the word go. I do think there's a lot of tools that I have downloaded over the years that certainly inform and help me as a parent. I think it helped that I'm an older first time dad. That's helped a lot.

36:19I feel like I'm a lot more mature in my story, but I still am learning everyday. I'm so humbled. But I want to say it can be that subtle. It can be that easy for their little antennas are always up. But here's the good news. I'll do that again. I'll make that mistake again. But now I know. And I live in this place of humility where I I don't repair, repair. I mean, I I don't repeat it. I just repair it since I caught it in a moment. I literally sat down eye to eye with him.

36:43And I said, you know what, buddy? I kind of missed that moment. I felt like I went into a little judgement. That's not what I wanted to do. I'd love I'm I want to hear about it. Tell me what you might be talking about getting a little jealous. And he said, yeah, I feel like when we're together, you spent you give him more attention than you give me. And that's exactly where we were not with this beautiful conversation that thank God, I've got the wherewithal now not to miss because years ago I might have just stayed on the personal train of like my kids entitled. I just gave him what a great trip. He didn't even care.

37:08He's complaining. So I just want to say that to all the parents out there, we'll do this throughout our conversation. And I try to. It's not because I want you to pick up Nuggets out of this, out of our just sharing our experience, strength and our hope and our stories instead of us up here trying to try to lecture you on something. It's just a lived experience, but don't be afraid to repair with our little ones, and also, if you really want to, to have little ones that will tell you what you and I were afraid to say at that time.

37:39It's keeping an open stance and being curious about what they're trying to say. Usually the emotion that they're giving you upfront is never the message underneath the message. I'm learning that the hard way, yeah. You know that you saying the thing about, you know, saying you're sorry, basically saying I can repair this. Let me let me just rewind. Hey, my bad. Just like it. Sometimes it is going back up there. You know, my kids are upstairs. It's like go back up there. Let's just have a talk about this. I kind of blew that, you know, I asked, you know, be in this world.

38:11I've just I've run into a couple of people who had great relationship with their parents. You know, one of one of them was the Switchfoot guys. You know, I think John Foreman was like the sweetest, most, one of the best humans I know, you know, and, and so I was like, tell me it was like before I had a first kid, you know, it's like, how did this work? How do you do this? How do you do it like this? You know, and he literally was like, I think my dad just was, was really quick to say he was sorry.

38:36Wow. And I was like, you know, of course. So we say we're sorry. My my wife is also the mental health space. So there's, you know, that. But yeah, I think that's, I think that the thing that that like, I feel is like this kid thing, like being a quiet kid and one that didn't share a lot, you know, the emotion, it might not be real. Like it's you have a girlfriend, you're 16 or whatever it is. And it's like the emotion of that on some sort of scale of emotions is stronger than anything I feel now.

39:10You know what I mean? It's it's not not as deep maybe, but the, but sort of the, the like that drama of that and that. And it's easy to kind of with kids, I think just go like, why do you this is puppy love. This is not what you know what I mean? I think. And I think that's probably something I try to do with the boys. And it's always been if I can start with a story, if I can tell them where I screwed up, it's like the the floodgates open or what they'll talk about. I can say, man, when I was 15, I thought this and I got caught and here's why I lied.

39:41And anyways. And they're like, yeah, then the then the questions come and they sort of like, I think same way, you know, adult sort of relationships that they they leave with vulnerability that. It's amazing how quick they rebound their their ability to forgive in real time. He's like, yeah, a Wick. Yeah, we are. Got it. Thank you. Let's move on. We. Complicate the crap out there as. Adults especially like my wife and I, when we do the repair thing, it's such a long form conversation.

40:09Sometimes I want to take a page out of their playbook. You you talked about and and I thought you gave a great visual of the conversation you had with your wife at your house when you said if I could just paint on the outside of the house. All my labels are the things that I've been through that I'm I'm that ready you you're like I I would. I am that ready for change. It immediately brought to mind long, long surrender Yeah. And if I could say anything about. The the.

40:41Moment where change really it takes root. It's, it's the moment of, of surrender that's been the biggest, most important part of my journey as a in, in every way parent, leader, guy in recovery, all the things that you might think that I am. It's all had a healthy moment of surrender that was painful to get there. But I've never heard it until I listen to the opening track on your album called long surrender. That song rocked me. It was almost like I couldn't get the. It's hard to get to the rest of me because I want to listen to that one multiple times.

41:16But say more about why you wrote that, where that those two words came together for you and how that might be reflective of your story. Yeah, I think, I think I'd. Had so I'd had a sort of a surrender experience, I would say, you know, 15 years ago or so, one of these where like I went to my wife, like I can't do this anymore. I got to tell you like if this means it's over, I I mean, I just, I just told her every me, it's one of those like running, I mean to well before I met her even that I just like I got to get this out and I'm sorry you got to be the one to hear it, but we need to start fresh, you know, and so I looked at that as like, and it was really great. But I think, you know, the surrender thing is a, I've started to like trying to work on a definition. I don't have it yet.

42:03But to me, the way I think of it is that sort of like it's a, it's a condition of the heart. It's not a destination kind of thing. It feels like to me what's helped me so much in this last, you know, I don't know, eight or nine months while I was writing this record and all this record is just literally it all got written during this time, which is like it's been in real time. It was I was writing the songs like the morning before we went like that one I wrote at the studio in the morning go over, you know, it's like, so it's felt like a natural experience, but it's also that reminder of like this is not going to stop. This is not like I'm not well now. You know, I think that the recovery part was a good those experiences that go in there all the time as I could go in there. I don't know anything, you know, I'm it's basically like I'm starting at the beginning today, like it's hard enough to make it through today and the way I would like to make it through. So I'm I'm here saying, you know, I'm humble walking into this.

43:00I feel powerless towards this. And then tomorrow it's the same thing, you know, and then you look up and you've like, man, I'm surprised by the joy that's coming to my life. You know what I mean? It's not even I didn't aim it or anything and strive for it. How you walk out of some situation like whoa, that used that situation used to kill me and I'm like, I feel great. You know, it's like what? It's because like every day has started in that same way.

43:25And so I have a a buddy that's going through ALS stuff and and I was telling him, I was telling him about that song. Actually, I was like, I just wrote this song and I was like, I don't know, it feels weird to me, like I'm not old enough to know for sure if I'm going to think this when I'm he's like, listen, he's like, you know what, my word for the year is surrender. And it hit me in a totally. I was like, obviously that makes tons of sense. So I think the record, the whole record really I've I've never written a record or been a part of a record that was so a personally kind of my stories where I get written from, but also just it was all all the songs you could lean on the same lesson really, you know what I mean?

44:06They were, it's like different windows into the same house. That's what it feels like to me. Those elements of like, OK, what a surrender really mean is that they're not giving things away. I I'm asking for help all, all those kind of like believing in these promises around me that like that I believe are true about God and all those like that's what the record. I mean, it's just chock full of that sentiment. So it was really healing thing for me.

44:33And it also was one of the first time I've ever, I was making a record, didn't really know I was making a record. Does that make sense? Like, I wasn't, it wasn't like, well, when we get to 12, we'll have an album or, you know, we're going down here to do a record. And that's what going to be at the end. It was really like we stumbled into it. You know, we did. We did one song with the producer Dave, Dave Cobb, and he's like, maybe come do a couple more so we can follow that up.

44:58And then we're three days into that and he's like, he's like, does this feel like Morty? I was like, man, I don't know what's happening, but I'm writing these things in the morning, coming over here. It feels like we're making an album, right? You know. And I was like, I don't know what the legalities of this. I don't know. And he literally went out. I mean, I've never had this experience. It's not how it happens, you know. It's like, but he walks out, he just is like a Co president of a label. So he goes out and makes a call and he comes back and he's like we're making an album like 5 minutes later. Yeah.

45:28And I was like, I guess we are. This feels right to me. So I think that even that is like the record feels like something beyond me. And a lot of that surrender was me saying like, God, I don't this is probably not a very commercial sounding record right now. This is probably, I don't know any radio stations that would play this right. You know, it's so much it's that's a lot of that's the surrender of going like, but this feels meaningful to me. And I think you gave me these songs. Like I think this is what I'm supposed to do. I think This is why you gave me this thing, this gift or this or this desire to express these things. I think this is the whole point.

46:07Maybe I should just not put the cart before the horse in this scenario and just like follow that. And so, you know, I think I feel really proud of the fact that the band, because that band dynamic is a totally different thing. You know, everybody's going through some different things. Yeah. And but the guys that are, are in there now are just bought in all the way. Our, our drummer's dad passed this last year and he quit drinking at the same time.

46:31And it was like, so we, we were having a lot of like stuff, different things that were happening. The different guys they were, they were latched onto it like it was their story. And they were like, we're on, we're on this like trip, whatever this is. Like we see it in you. We believe in you. We believe what's happened here and we're down. And it was just like that obviously was really affirming and felt amazing to me. You know, also a producer like Dave Cobb was like, I'm playing him the songs in the morning.

46:58He's like, we're going to cut that today. The belief in that of like just made that so much easier. So yeah, I just, I'm incredibly more proud of the record than than I've ever been because of that 'cause I, I feel like I got out of the way. It wasn't proof, You know. I'm glad to hear that 'cause it. It feels so honest it almost it it's and it's to me that's hard to do. And I feel like I'm a music nerd, but I'm nowhere at your level of mastery around the craft 'cause I don't do it every day. And so I feel even spitballing with you to talk about the album.

47:32I'm not quite qualified, but I'll say what my thoughts are about it. Which is it? It feels like it reads like a memoir and it but it's hard to do that and make it make the memoir flow all the way through there. It's like a book you can't put down. That's what that's how I would describe it. And I was like a book you can't put down. And that's hard to do that with a full album because if you follow the formula, it's like, why? Which, which of the hooky singles? Where do we place them?

47:53Where you put them? It's like this whole thing tells the story. And I keep thinking, because we use those of you that listen, you know, I've got a involved in a company called on site Wellness and we have 2 or 3000 people from around the country come around and, and do you know, some type of therapeutic work with us at either campus or out on the road somewhere? And we deploy a lot of experiential tools and one of which is music. And so we're often buttoning up someone's experience with a song that fits the moment. And I was sitting there thinking about your says I would go through it.

48:23I was like, oh, grief, oh, trauma. Oh, I was thinking about relationship thing. But then I was like, how do you pick? I mean, because the whole thing is very therapeutic to listen to. But here's what I'll say about that. I'm most that I'm most proud of you for is I've been around my world for a long time and I've been around your world for a long time. I've seen how wrong we can get it When my world and your world tries to combine them, mostly from our side.

48:44It's like therapists that music therapy is a field. I think it's so great in its application in certain ways. And then when we try to make it applicable to everybody, the music can be so bad because it was almost like written with an agenda and it feels like you're trying to fit a therapy obsession into a song. It's way too many words and way too complicated. And you're the music is really good. Like it's really good and it's therapeutic. It's like, that's a double whammy. There was, I regretted sitting out there in the back porch. I didn't have a pen because there's so many little sound body hook and things.

49:16And I got to say to you, I think it was brilliant. I don't know how it happened. I'd love to hear how it happened, but come together with Dave on this. If you know music, and if you don't know music, but you've let you'll you'll know who Dave Cobbs behind. I mean, thanks, Stapleton. We could go down a list of a lot of great artists and a lot of great sounds that he's been part of innovating. And you're right. He now sits in an unusual seed of influence with with Universal. I thought that was brilliant on their part. I just saw him out in LA.

49:42He was at, we ended up at the same after party, after the Grammys and and I had seen him in a little while. And so I said, what's it feel like to be a big power music executive now? And it's so weird to see a guy like him in that city. And he said, I don't know. He said, but I am a creative that's got a little more influence. I thought there's Dave Collins making that poetic. I'm sure he's wearing them. Out. Yeah. You know, we got. I'd worked with him one time before and I always thought it'd be a great idea.

50:11Just obviously I lowered the records he's made and I like the approach, but I didn't know it in depth. Exactly. And I would say we went down to do a single with the red clay guys, and it was a song that I'd written by myself. I played it. You wrote that by yourself? Yeah. That Mama. Loves me song I just. I wrote it and I and I, I wasn't going to release it because I was nervous about, does this feel too trite at the end? Is this, this carry the weight that it needs to carry even though it's, you know, and, and that's phrase born again to me was like, it, what it meant to me was like this nostalgic thing of that. Like it had a sense of like an older but also still had value to me.

50:48And I was like, I don't know if people hear it that way. Is that kind of Yeah, I, I just probably 'cause it was vulnerable. I, I was second guessing it and I and I played it to Brandon. We were at a charity event and I'm not through the 1st chorus and he's like this should be in the world. And I was like what would you sing on? It was like, yes, you tell me when you know. So they were making a record with Dave in the just the timing work for us to go down there and be like let's meet for one day and do this.

51:13And that's really how it set off. I played him a couple things from my phone while we were down there working on that one song. Not even just talking about music, not thinking like I'm trying to talk him into working with us. I mean, we were, I would say, happily independent. You know, we weren't thinking about a record deal. We're like, we can kind of do records how we want. I was like, I don't think. And so it just happened really naturally with him.

51:35Like, man, if he called me like the next day, I think after we left and he was like, man, it feels like you're on to something as a writer. I can hear you in these songs. And I think, I think maybe it's time for you to make a record like that. And I was like, well, let me send you a couple other things. And then even just from that, I started writing for the up to like, not to impress him, but just more to kind of be like how this guy's giving me some like leeway to do that thing that feels really close.

52:03And so I think all the songs, but one of them I just wrote by myself, which is also another thing of a little bit of difference of, of just like I was in my studio of the house and just I'm saying like it's a memoir. I would think that's a big difference. Isn't it? Is that pretty? Yeah, yeah. I've always there's always been a few maybe on the record there like that, but I never felt confident in I mean, another part of the story with Dave is so classic. He just I, I sent him a demo.

52:30This song will take the blame. And it just felt I was going through some heavy and I this was my response to this heavy experience. I'm going through just, I mean it just, I mean it, whatever you want to call it, bledded out or vomited or whatever it was, it came out natural. Yeah. And I, and I sent him this was like I'd gone in there after I dropped the kids at school, right. So it's like 1:00. I mean, it's not like, I mean, this and the demo I, I never have confidence in my demos. So I sent him the demo.

52:57He's like, he's like, this is what we should be doing and I don't want to change anything. I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, he's like, we're going to leave. This is the vocal, this is the guitar, this is the And I've all of a sudden I'm mortified a little bit, you know, kind of. So I would, I give him credit for that. A level of like he knows what he's aiming at. Isn't that what he's like? He loves a. First take kind of guy yeah, he wants it that's and and there's.

53:23Such a his his thing is the performance is important. And I think over the years we've gotten, you know, you can do it however you can do 20 takes if you want to. You can get it perfect. But does it carry the same emotion that it had when you first sang it? Now you've become like a cover band of your own stuff a little bit. So the studio feels like that sometimes. So his thing is the opposite of that. Make you uncomfortable. Get in there, get in there, get in there.

53:46It's like go go, go. OK, come in. We're it's cut, you know? And so I just thought like we love that part of that first song we did. And because Brandon, me and Brandon from Red Claire down there and he's like I want y'all go in the studio together. He's like, I don't want you to see it yet, but I'm going to set 2 mics up. Y'all look at each other and sing the whole song like that. Come on. Right. And I was like, I don't know, I've never done this before. So it's kind of weird.

54:10So then we so we just kind of get in there and we just RIP it to each other, like come in. That's it. And we're like, what do you mean? That's it? You know, it's like, no, that's, that's the record. This is the way. And so I think, I think you get confidence with that a little bit as it goes of like, oh man, I can actually enter into this moment not fearing that I'm messing up or whatever. And maybe that is the that's what we're trying to do here.

54:32You know, I think he gets that as well as anybody I've ever worked with and, and he's a kid in that way. He's like looking for emotion through the music. And his biggest things he would say to me were I love what you're saying in this song, but the music doesn't really take me there. Let's strip it back a little bit. Let's make this. But what if you played acoustic to it? And just like, why don't you go in there, go in there and play it 'cause you do it real quick, just as like like you're playing it on stage. Maybe like that's the version we want. You know, it's that it's so it's, it is quick, but it's also, it takes a lot of belief in yourself to know I'm feeling this or I'm not feeling this, you know, And I would argue that's like more like Rick Rubin. Yeah.

55:12Totally. It's much. Harder. Have you ever worked with him? I haven't. I know that's his. Yeah, I have a. He's got a famous It's a. Quoter, I know he started doing more of this a few a couple years ago, and it was so cool to hear him talk 'cause he was kind of mysterious too, had worked with all these legends, but I forget. I'll I'll mess it up. It was something to the effect of what makes you confident in what you do, what makes you good at what you do.

55:36And he said nothing to do with all the technical stuff. I just really trust my taste in music, Yeah. Could be I mean, The thing is, once you what's funny is everybody feeds off of that in the in the Dave situation, you know, by by the second week or there or whatever. Now everybody's thinking that way. Guitar player is not going out there because he's got insecurities about being the best guitar player in Nashville or whatever. He's playing a part that is feeding into the emotion in the song, right?

56:02And that's it. And that might be easy. That might be simple, that might be this time it's, it's not as overthought as at least from my experience of being doing this for 20 years or whatever. And it's so relatable. And it compares to my profession too, because I've had some great mentors in my field. Some of The Pioneers have have kind of come alongside me over the years and especially in my early development of years. But I had one, one time say, do you think you have anything to offer them?

56:34And I said, well, I hope so. You know, if I'm going to sit in front of people for a living, I hope I've got something to offer them. I think I do. And he said, get clear about what that is. And I said, OK, can you help me figure out what that is? And he said, learn everything you need to learn. He said, but the presence is the gift you're going to give them. And I said, say more about that. And he said, if you have to believe that the person sitting in front of you has what it takes to grow, change and heal, to be effective for them, you have to have confidence in their story because right now they're lacking it. And that's an energetic exchange. That's not words.

57:06I can't tell you, you can go do that because it's not believable in real time. But I, I, right then I, I, I cleared and I was like, I've always got to put the human in front of the knowledge and I've got to show up authentically and humanize this experience so that we can have a confidence exchange. That sounds like that's what you and Dave had. I mean and and. And he was good with I think I'd carry this into well, starting to write for this record. And I felt more strongly about this idea of like when you because there's so many avenues.

57:35That's that's the thing I tell new artists all the time. I'm like, I'm like, screw how you're going to sell this. Like immediately you think how you're going to sell it. Now it's like this radio genre, TikTok, there's always like categories. Now you're aiming at a category. You're funneling some. All you have is your story. Nobody cares about anything else. Like this is not mastery of some. There's a million dudes at Guitar Center and play guitar like nobody cares, right? It's like, what is your voice in this? And and it helps when you sort of wipe all that stuff out of one.

58:09Like I don't know if anybody ever hears this record. And honestly, I hope they do. But like, I'm not responsible for that. Like I'm I'm responsible. So I think at least for me writing the lyrics, it became less of like, I don't have to even make the argument universally, you know, I'm not that guy either. I don't need to go to like, you know, I'm not doing Q&A's at Harvard or whatever, you know what I mean? It's like, if this is powerful to me, it is.

58:33And I so I think that that was freeing to me because I think there's always been a little piece of my mind of like, I need to make sure I justify this to all, you know, I don't want, I don't want just the church people to understand this or just the nun or just the people that drink or just people that whatever. I was like, man, maybe that's not my responsibility. You know, maybe my responsibility is just the simple really like, what did I feel this morning when I woke up?

58:57What's been working, what hasn't? Where do I find hope, you know, connection. Those kind of it's like it did get simpler. And that's I appreciate you saying lyrics are even good on the record because they feel as I was writing, my felt simple. It felt like I could have wrote 40 songs on this or written 40 songs on this record in the sense of like it. It was so naturally what I was waking up wanting to say. Was it enjoyable? Oh. I mean. You know, I had one scary the the night before I wrote long surrender.

59:33We had actually was a day. It was a day I wrote long surrender. We we, we went in there and tried to cut it the same day and just it was too much pressure and it wasn't the right version. And there was a verse I went sure about. It was one of these kind of like we pushed through it and I got down the other day and I was just like, I didn't feel that it feel like surrender to me. That felt that felt forced. I was nervous while I was in that, like there's something's wrong about that.

59:57And I just had that moment of like, I went, I've literally went back as I got it. You're going to have to fix this. I don't have to stand up to Dave Cobb. I don't have to stand up to ban. You know what I mean? I was like, I don't know. And I, I woke up the next morning and like said at a piano and just like it started flowing. I kind of felt and I got this like this is what you're supposed to do, you know, like I went into him and I was like, hey, man, I don't that version yesterday, wasn't it?

1:00:22And he's like, you sure. I kind of liked it. You know, I was like, listen, I don't know how to be clear about this because I'm not going to be a stickler about details, but I was like, I'm going to recut this song, whether it's here somewhere else. He's like, great, let's do it right now, you know? So it was like, it was a good. Yeah, I just felt like. This is a. Real this this feels so I think there's an element of that of just that's another thing is like me surrendering this need to be the guy like you know with a Dave Cobbs like him seeing me a certain way or what I was just like I got to stick to the to this like this my story and this thing and if that's good enough or whatever that you want to call that like for me it's got to be so I'm. I'm thankful that he was also reacted to that, like he saw it. He saw it in my eyes enough to go like, yeah, what's cool, let's take it out.

1:01:09Yes, do it. Having been on the. The back end of crisis and trauma and stress, which all again is a catalyst for often trying to control something we can't control. I usually haven't seen that over and over again to the tune of 70, eighty, 90,000 people in my career. I know what is likely to come on the other side of that, which is the answer that we started with this conversation was to surrender. And I do feel like humanity, whereas a lot of people are looking at it with a little doom and gloom right now.

1:01:39It's like, man, we couldn't be further apart. It's the loudest 10% on each side has the, the microphone and everybody's fighting with each other. And I, I agree with that, but I also am pretty optimistic because I've seen what happens when we get to this place. It's a painful place because I've been there internally where I had that conflict where I was trying to control my image and everything around me. And it's exhausting. You know it too. And then suddenly you hit your knees and you have a surrender moment.

1:02:01And. And boy, what's possible after that? I mean, you're living probably looking at you. You've got such a rested presence talking and you're just talking about having enjoy. You just came out of an album cycle and it's not even out yet. And you're. You've enjoyed it up till now. Yeah. Most of artists I talked to at this stage have been like through the tortured editing process and you've got a peaceful presence about you and a, and a trust of, of what's getting ready to happen with this and, and not even an expectation of having to control the outcome of how that's going to look.

1:02:28It's just such a healthy perspective that I think whether you're an artist or in psychology or doesn't matter what you do, to borrow a page out of that playbook of what is it that I can control? Really not much, but what is it that I can actually surrender and be powerless about? I mean, it's a page, I think, out of every playbook that we all could take right now when it comes to how we're moving about the world. I'm curious, you've brought this up a time or two about your wife being in mental health.

1:02:59I'm curious how that is what that's like to be married to a therapist. We're still figuring it out, honestly. You know, she, she started her own practice about a year ago now, I think. And that's, that's like there's an element of just being a therapist where, you know, they're obviously dealing with pretty heavy situations all day, you know, so that they're in. And there's it always, it feels, I told her at the beginning, like this feels like you're in the CIA or something because you can't talk to me about who you're seeing.

1:03:27You know, it's a little weird for me, my wife all of a sudden, just like, yeah, I met nine people a day and you don't know who they are and you don't know what you talked about. I was like, whoa. So there was a little bit of that. You know, obviously everything she learns, you know, she doesn't try, I feel like, to do that. But occasionally I get to be the, you know, the test case of how this might go. You know, these questions might go whatever.

1:03:49But I think the business element of that was a whole new challenge to it of like, man, now, you know, people want to see her and that's becoming a thing. And she's seen a lot of artists and stuff, which is great. And I think she's really good at what she does. She's she's always been incredibly smart and empathetic and can't really listen well. And like she, you know, totally different than me probably, but she she's really good. So it's turned into like, but hey, I'm over here.

1:04:16Like I'm going a lot to like, if we say we're not going to work on Friday, let's not work on Friday. So that's kind of been more of the thing. But the positives way outweigh the, you know, negatives of that in the sense that, I mean, I tell people all the time, it's like it's nice that she sees people that are, you know, messed up like I am. It makes it more, you know, it makes it easier for I think for her to come home, be like, OK, I see how we're working on this and see this is this is not the end of the world here. And how she is with our kids is amazing. You know, I have my own sort of way with them and I that, you know, I try to be effective, but I think she is so great with the sort of questions and knowing their different personalities and how to get something out of them and these little, you know, experiential things.

1:05:03You know, we're always, she like throws his cards out. They have these little cards. It's like animals on there, you know, pigs or something in the school and it's like 1 kids and one of the pigs embarrassed or whatever. You know, I've got one story I like to tell that 8 year old who I have 10 year old, real sensitive 8 year old, like confident bro, five year old, we'll see, you know, but but he's got so much confidence and he's so this things like the kids getting embarrassed at school and she and he he doesn't like to talk about his feelings, but when he sees the picture, it's like, let's go, this is some sort of game I'm playing, you know, So she says like, have you ever felt like that You ever get he's like, how do you feel the pigs feeling?

1:05:40He's like maybe embarrassed, you know, maybe maybe somebody said something, you know, how do you feel? He goes well, well, maybe bad at first, but then I remember, you know, I'm me. I was like, I just need more of that, you know, whatever you got, I need so but she's I just think that, you know, the fact that we're having those kind of intentional conversations with the boys that allow them to kind of, you know, Cher is, is she's really great at at making that happen. It's been a value add for the most. Yeah, for sure.

1:06:15It's been with that, it's been interesting with us. I think at times it's been a, for the most part, it's a value add. There's been times where I've, it's been hard for me to take that hat off, the mental health hat off, especially when we were navigating conflict, because obviously if you got a set of tools, you know, deploy them in real time. But sometimes I'm guilty of my wife has felt like the hey, don't take shut that put your therapist shut away and. And.

1:06:37After some, but, but it's been a real good challenge for me because I've tried to figure out, well, OK, well then how do you deploy a tool and neutralize the language in a way that doesn't make it feel loaded with stigma? And, and, and in the last several years, I've had opportunities to take concepts of emotional intelligence and psychology and go talk in other circles, entertainment circles and, and other other circles that aren't mine. And I've tried to neutralize language and take the pathology driven language out of it. And it, I've, I've found it, it's not just way more digestible, but it's way more fun to talk about. Because really, at the end of the day, I mean, the only reason we have a profession when it comes to studying human behavior and how that to help people work out certain proper parts of their challenges that they may feel stuck. It's the reason we have it is because for some reason we've made it such an unnatural thing to do as humans is to just have these conversations about let's talk about your patterns, Who are you?

1:07:32What's going on? You stuck what's happening, how you know, And I think that's ultimately what's going to guide us back to to being together. And I think it's I think it's coming. I think these next two generations are at first I was worried because I old school have been around in a while. And if I was there when it felt like we were pushing the snowball up a hill, IE mental health, and it was so much stigma related to it to get anybody to even care. And now it feels like it's kind of toppled. And at first it was like, OK, man, this is coming like hip sexy and cool now to talk about your mental health. And it got almost so trendy that it got pop culture eyes and it started losing its way.

1:08:05And we're still there. I think, you know, to the Tik Toks and Instagrams of the world kind of cheapened it a little bit. But I I'll take it. I'll take the trade off because more people are having honest conversations, more people are being vulnerable. Yeah, we have. I mean, I, I I was buddy of mine was at our we Christmas party. We got invited to. It's like it's and it's like it's strange to me that I've got I've like fallen into that was a quiet kid.

1:08:31You know, it's like doing what I do, playing music, all that. And it's like, I have friends that are very, we just have gravitated and I think partly because of her, probably because what I've been through, whatever. But you, it's an intentional, you know, I mean, we're at a Christmas party, but like when dinner's over now we go like that dinner we were at together. It's like it goes into, OK, we're going to answer 3 questions about our, our marriages and our kids now. Yeah, I mean it gets and it and it's so like, I mean, it's so that's a different thing than I think a lot of people get to experience where it is like we'll just let's just hit this party as hard as we can hit it until everybody, you know, passes out and goes home.

1:09:11I think the the fact that our friendships that like the really adult friendships, people going through that stage of life, we are are able to be like even the guys that are like, oh man, yes, I think, but I don't want to do this. But when the next they're the ones like crying at the end because they're getting a chance to talk about things they care about. So I'm thankful for that. And Nashville has been a obviously a part of that. I think, you know, move into a town where there's people doing similar things to us, not all the same a good mix, but like it's we've kind of been able to find some people that feel really the kind that I could walk in and say just about anything, you know, and it and it'd be like this is a safe place to do that. Like I got you, y'all got that built in, You got a good. Community.

1:09:56It's been, yeah, it's been really. I mean more than helpful, it's it's kind of it's vital, you know, one one of the guys that. We share in common and I think you are a lot closer because y'all got more time than we do. But I'm becoming friends with him and our buddy Chad. We actually talked about him randomly at the top before we even turn the mics on. Love that dude. But I I seems like when I run into you a few times at various events y'all been together and I'm just getting to know him a lot better. And I mean what I mean.

1:10:25It's some guy. He's unbelievable. Yeah, it's, I mean, he's a strange. He's, it's funny because I think that, yeah, I would call him my best friend, probably he. Yeah. And so, but he, we're so different. This guy's type a driven, you know, business guy, like all that loudest guy in the room. I'm the quietest, you know, it's like it's, but it's been, it's been incredible because all, all that mystery that I have or whatever, he just brings it. He's just like forces me into the conversation somewhere.

1:10:56I meet tons of people through him that I, you know, he's not in music or anything. He knows everybody just because he's loud. He's willing to talk about it. He's no shame. Just like going to dig in, you know, I'll ask him for if they'll come to the charity event, whatever. But he's been, yeah, hugely important in my life, you know, and, and a lot of fun, obviously, but just I think he's a he's a backer. And that way, you know, a guy like, even though I play music and that's a thing and whatever, it's this guy, he's a friend that I think will that is there no matter what, how this turns out, no matter how embarrassing it gets or how whatever, you know what I mean? He's just, he's got your back.

1:11:35And I think that's the fact that he's got so much going for him and all that, and that's also that kind of France says a lot about him. Well, very the interesting. Thing about him is I knew him for several years socially without ever knowing what he did and very impactful, you know, kind of highly visible entrepreneur, but never leads with that. I mean, one thing, you know, about Chad right away is he cares about impact. He cares. He wants to positively impact the people around him at all costs.

1:12:00And I, I just, I take a page out of that playbook because he's so intentional about it that, you know that, you know, it's his presence. It's the presence he brings. But I was going to ask you the same thing as what made me think about Chad as kind of a Bridges. What kind What kind of lights you up outside of family and music? I know they've seen two big priorities for you. What do you love to do? I know you got to be involved in some terrible stuff. We are.

1:12:18Yeah. That's always been. Really fun. We started working with a charity when I live in Charleston. And you grew up in Charleston, right? Yeah. Well, you grew up in a small town and other side of the state and. Then I moved to Charleston for 10 years, Yeah. And I met these guys that have started charity. It was medical mission stuff called One World, One World Health. And I just, I went on a trip because my wife was a nurse at the time and she was like, we got to go on this medical trip and was like, I don't like blood. I don't like, you know, it's like my nightmare really. And I've got there and it was, I was blown away by solvable problems.

1:12:56That was really like, that's always been a thing for me in terms of like the nonprofit world was like, we see a problem. We have the answers to the test now we just need people to help us do this. You know, that felt like so different than like maybe a relief thing, which those are great too. It is what it really got to me was like, we got a plan to fix this. And so I think that I came back from that. We got to do something. I don't know how to do it. So we just did a golf tournament and we were like, and when I sucked at golf, I was like, it's just, but I knew enough guys, I knew the club we could go do it at. And the night before the thing we, I'm calling all my buddies, I'm calling, you know, Ben Rector and people like that. But hey, I need tickets for, you know, I need 4 tickets for the we're auctioning random stuff, you know, and we raised a few 100 grand at first night and, and literally all of our friends, the band, ourselves, we're just stood on the side like blown away.

1:13:46I mean, weeping. That's a big, that's a big night. For a first time charity, yeah. And we? And we had no clue it was going to happen like that. And just with hands are going up to do this. And we just like we're we're at Waffle House after yes, like we were like, because at the time, none of us we're like none of us could have even afforded to raise our hand to any of those things. The fact that we got these people in the room and these were friends. I was like, man, the power of that's crazy. So I got, you know, like it just connect addicted to it in a way just of like, man, it cannot with whatever I bring. Are you going to multiply this into something bigger than me? And so I've always appreciated that We work, I work with Chad now on on four others, which is foster care stuff, and it's the same.

1:14:29That's the same thing that that intrigues me about it is they're not like they're not reinventing the wheel. They're not saying we've got the answer, which is over here, this random new thing. It's like we're going into like all kinds of technology. We're trying to take all the best organizations that don't speak to each other across the country and give them resources to grow them and build this like web in order to like this is a fixable problem.

1:14:51We got numbers. We got places that like kids in the home, fixable problem, meaning the foster care system. And it's just and because it's state. Run. There's so many problems from state to state and there's there's so many issues because, you know, there's a role all over in politics and all that kind of stuff. So it's like these kids are just getting left in a situation where like, man, we can, you know, there should not be kids in Nashville, you know, without a place to stay, right? It's like they shouldn't be staying in government buildings and all that.

1:15:17Like we should be able to keep up with this problem with the wealth that's around us, you know, and so anyway, that's that's really intriguing me and Chad been able to make some inroads there in terms of. Housing and stuff, yeah. And and and. I wish I could tell it better, but like the IT, we've been doing it for two or three years with them and I've just, I'm like coming along. I'm like the guy that sings, I'm the mascot sing a song at the thing. But yeah, last year we did a tournament at Troubadour, raised 16,000,000 in the night and that and I'll just like give so much credit to that to Chad and the way he, I mean, it's like, it's insane.

1:15:53You know, he asked me, we had a song with Tori Kelly and he's like, you think we can get Tori Kelly? And I'm like, I don't know, man, she's in LA. You know, it's like all that, you know, he's like, I think we'd probably do it. I'm like, OK. And so it was like, you know, that that he has, he's had everybody, you know, all kinds of big time artists and stuff do it. But the presentation that people get in the room is a lot of credit to the fact like this guy's running a a massive business, you know, and still is just chasing down people, getting them in this room.

1:16:20Knows that if we if we can, we can tell them what the problem is and that we have answers that'll help. So yeah, I I would say that's a that's a huge part. Still. We do a dollar the ticket thing. We were doing that for years. But it's also like, how do we bring it in the natural way to our audience? Doesn't tax them, doesn't make them wish they had to come to the show, you know, but it, but it tells them like, Hey, what the way we did it with foster care thing is, we just would tell them numbers of the city we're in.

1:16:46I was like, Hey, if, if these people, if we're in Phoenix or wherever it is, I want the people donating that night. I wanted to stay in their town, you know, and so and so for others, worked with us in that way where I I could say here's how many foster care, you know, people we need, here's how many families we need. This is kind of money need we, you know, this is your town and whatever we raise that night. It's like, and it was like simple. I just texted in kind of thing and blown away by like, you know, people are generous and they want to take care of their own towns. Well, the the the.

1:17:16In the the charity world is small, you know, it's at the circle is kind of small even though it's vast around the country, but that I have been unable to be at at child's event. I want to, I think I'm try to do it this year, but it's it's become legendary in charity circles. The fact that you've taken it from here to here so quickly because there's long term established charities to work their whole the life and never have a night like that. But what's even more impressive is not necessarily the number you raise, it's the impact you're creating because I've heard that over and over again, the reputation y'all have for what you're doing in that circle. And then that spaces it's it was impressive when it was local, but now it's like you're hearing about it all over the country. So that's all for being a part of that. And I wouldn't diminish your role. And I appreciate the humbleness and saying the mascot, but from somebody who's put on charity events, that's often the hardest part is trying to get talent to come alongside you, the people that can move the evening forward. It's not really about

1:18:08entertainment, It's people that can come and deliver something. They're highly invested in the message and the outcome. And I love when I see artists that know where they want to spend their time and they're anchored into the impact. Because I believe if you make good art, influence is probably going to follow it. And if you steward the influence and you're going to create some good in the world. And I feel like guys like you, especially when I sit back there crying on the back porch, listen to your record that the rest of the world is going to get to hear.

1:18:32What a month, baby. The rest of the world will get to hear very soon. To know that the guy behind that is living those lyrics to me makes them so much more. That's just so rich. So I'm, I, I wanted to get that part of your story a little bit because I, I too, like Chad, end up being a mentor to a lot of artists that are like, all right, I've got these resources and this influence. I want to do something good with it. And now I'm, I'm almost like, OK, Chad's come in and done it way better than I've ever done it.

1:19:03So talk to this guy 'cause he'll put you to work. Yeah. And you and it's a, it's a belief. Thing that's that's what I've been blown away by with him and I could talk about him all day, but it is I, I do I, I look up there and it's like God, the the, the goal it takes, you know, the, the sort of like to be like I'm calling him, you know, he called me one day. He's like, he's like, you didn't even get Coldplay. And I was like. You know that's the kind.

1:19:27Of thing, it's like it's like for me, I'd be like, no, you can't. I was like, I have no idea how to get in touch with Chris. And if I did, I still wouldn't ask him. You know, he's like, I think I can get to him, you know, he's like, so he's just a dog when it comes to that dog. He's got me working on some people. Right now, yeah, it's amazing. So. Well, it's got any better at golf since you started a few years ago? I don't know. I think there's. I think I'm better, but golly, dude, it's so frustrating.

1:19:54I what? I can't. So I played football in college, so I feel like I'm a good athlete. Where did you what position? I was a wide receiver. OK, where's your Furman? I was a 438. That's huge, yeah. I was a fast guy. I thought you. Were going to. Say like 4546 be a wide receiver at that level was a pretty big deal before 3. Dang dude, back then it was like a. Height thing, you know, every receiver was 6/5 at the time, so you went one AA or whatever. And if we had been in the portal sort of world, you know, we'd all been.

1:20:27My best friend in college is Billy Napier, who's a coach at Florida until last year and now at JMU. But yeah, but so I think of myself as athletic, but you get out there these guys that are not athletic or beating your brains out at golf, it's the most, you know, humbling thing. But we're working at it. That's my goal this year. I I. Just joined a club and I'm excited to get out there in the spring. I, I, I had, I played like 10 years ago pre kids for like 2 years really a lot and and got my handicap down to respectable level. It was something there maybe 1314 which that makes golf fun. You know when you're making a few. Boogies you can play.

1:21:02Fast enough to play with anybody. Right. And then and then. Kids came along and I just couldn't prioritize and so it got worse and worse and worse and now I'm kind of on that charity scramble tour. You do like 4 a year and that's the most golf you're going to get in. But I'm changing that this year. This is a hobby. It's something I love to do. I just want to spend more time doing it. I got into it because. Well, the competitive piece was like missing after college, but also on the road. We spend so much time inside.

1:21:27You know what I mean? It's a bus or even these arenas and stuff. They're all like white brick, you know, It's just, it's can be depressing. And I was just like, I got to get outside somehow. This is some excuse and then we've had buddies on the road, Drew Holcomb and somebody have tour with a lot and he loves to play. He's the one that wrote me a recommendation. I joined his club. Oh, nice. Yeah. So he's like, so that's a good example of like he would make me get out and play, you know. So I really Judah from Judah the Line, another one I just like he loves to play.

1:21:53So Ben Rector is all those guys like I've had on tour with us or whatever. So yeah, this year I have I play in this Crew Cup thing, which is an amateur. They say the best amateur tournament in the in America or whatever. And it's like like this year Drew Brees and Ben Roethlisberger were the 2 captains and so and it's Steph Curry and Larry Fitzgerald and all these, I mean crazy good athletes. And these guys take it serious, right? And I am definitely me and he wouldn't mind me saying this, but like me and Shay Mooney, Thomas Rhett, we're like the worst players they that they take, you know.

1:22:27So it's always like we're like barely sneaking in this thing. Well, then we're in these like we played, you know, Pinehurst this year is incredibly hard. These guys are like all we're the worst. So it it put me in a real bad, a really humbling spot this year of being like they I played the first day with Steph. It's Steph and Shay and me and another guy are playing right. So team thing. Well, of course Pinehurst is public. So they've got like the whole thing.

1:22:53I mean it's like I'm at a real tournament because everybody's heard that he's there. So everybody's there to watch Steph tee off and I'm teeing off. They're watching 1000 people. No, you got a gallery. I hit it OK. I hit it OK. Did you get a golf clap? Yeah. I got a little yeah, but it. Was the scariest thing I've ever done in my life, you know, So I'm going to work on it this year. What's the Steph as good as golf? As I heard of you, Yeah, it's natural. Man, it's so and he's a such a three to five handicap or better probably.

1:23:19Better than that. Scratch, yeah. Dang. I just I actually got just got to meet. Him for the first time this weekend, we were out there for his premiere for the goat movie. It's fantastic, which it reminded me when you were telling your story about your wife using the animal cards to talk about emotions. That's kind of the way they wrote this film and that the players in the film are all animals and down to the goat that ends up being the goat. But I don't want to give the story away.

1:23:41But it's a, it's a really cool depiction of you're not watching, just a cool sports story and a redemption story. You're seeing all these guys like for. I thought it was great for adults too. I was into it the whole time. I kind of took it so my son could see it, but Steph couldn't have been a nicer guy. It's so cool. You got to spend that time with him and play golf with him. TR is getting a little better. He's a buddy of mine. I can say that. I remember him a few years ago, that pisses me off.

1:24:03So I do have this over him. I'll say, 'cause we're buddies, but like he he the first year we went, I beat him in this one-on-one thing. Now he's much better than me now. So I can say this with, you know, but like, but he actually asked after the first day I want him again. He called me out and got beat again. So I'm back. I have that until we play again in this thing. I'm so glad I got this clip right now. I'm going to use this. I'm owning it until it doesn't.

1:24:30Happen because he is better than me right now. So what's the best? If you look back, I know you've you've had y'all carried your own tours, you've been on some really big tours with other people. Is there any that you would say felt the most meaningful or most memorable? Could be yours or somebody else. Yeah. Gosh, I mean, I still go back to like the, the, the biggest moment for the band was because we were, we were just a club. Like, I mean, we had signed a major record deal, but nothing was going on.

1:25:02I mean, they should have dropped us. It was that kind of. And so we're playing clubs around where we live for. I bet we played, there's a club in Birmingham called Work Play Theatres, probably 4 or 500 seats or something. It'd be like exit in here or something like that. And we play those places 1015 times before we ever sold them out once, you know? And so when the Outsiders came out, we went around, we're selling the same amount of tickets. The record come out, we're playing those size rooms.

1:25:31But the response personally about how people felt about the record was totally different. I remember the agent calling and he's like, hey, what's going on, 'cause the tickets are the same. Yeah. And I'm like, something happened. I promise you, he's like, I, I was like, I don't. The way people are talking about this record like they're living to it is a different. I'm not used to that. Like they used to come because we were loud and energetic and whatever.

1:25:53I was like all of a sudden this is meaningful to people. And so in that tour we did accident. The next step. I'm trying to think of that as a Nashville within the ramen. We did three level changes in period of like maybe a year. Wow, and that moment was like that kind of like, oh, we get to do this. You know, I we didn't see it as like making it. It was more like, gosh, we get to finally think about maybe we'll do this five more years when you first start, there's such a there's real just like maybe we got six months so we could survive this, you know, we could keep this, the wheel spinning. So that was really powerful.

1:26:32And then I remember that time of just being like blown away by it. Really appreciative knowing the venues you're playing. And then probably Red Rocks is the next thing. And we, we've been able to do that 5 or 6 Times Now. And, but the first time I remember they, they told us they're like, we maybe we got an offer for Red Rocks. They're like, and they're like it's 10,000 people, but if you sell 5000 it'll look pretty good. And we were like, sounds good to me. You know, that'd be amazing.

1:26:59And then we sold it out the first time. And I just remember all of us going like looking at you, Can you believe this is actually happening? You know, and I think we still have that. I still have that feeling of, you know, we've played Bridgestone and we did the Taylor Swift thing. It's like we've done a lot. So when when did you do the Taylor tour? God. Man, forever ago it was like. 15 years ago maybe. It was still massive then though. Oh. Yeah, it was.

1:27:20We were. Playing Cowboy Stadium, we played Gillette, we played, you know, all those massive places. We were not ready for that, but but we still have that feeling of like right now. I mean, we played Jacksonville other night. We're playing an acoustic tour sit down kind of. So it's a theater a couple thousand, you know, and it's and it's packed in there and we're all looking each other like in this amazing. You know, it's like we we still have that feeling of like, you know, not that we don't belong, but we're just appreciative that we've been able to do it as long as we have and people still care. Is is is crazy to me, you know?

1:27:53Yeah, it's a it's you got a favorite venue rock'n'roll wise. I like the Tabernacle in Atlanta. I don't think anybody else, I don't think people that go there like it is my yeah, I like it. I like it. Well, I mean, there's so many good. The rock club thing is good for the band. I know that people don't like it as much, but when I have the audience standing, the level of energy the band can get to in that scenario is so much higher. It's like there's a connection to it. Obviously everybody's kind of sweating on each other. Basically.

1:28:24It's like not what adults want to do really. But I think when when it's in that there's a the anthem is great like that in DC, it's like probably it's a bigger venue, 910 thousand, but it's set up like a rock club, balconies around the outside and stuff. The energy in those rooms I think is it's just hard to match at a nice theater, a nice place, but still like Red Rocks feels like the home run. It's it's really hard to be. I think that's my favorite venue, Yeah. It's just epic.

1:28:54Yeah, I think our. You know, our families come out and stuff. My boys, I took them this last time because they've heard about it. And whatever. I took him on stage even. Did you really? How'd they do? Did they like it? Oh. Well, that you know the eight-year. Old is the boy. Oh yeah, of course he's a girl. I hold him up my. 8 year old similar we got these. Boys together. Oh, he did. Right to the crowd. Right to the crowd. Yeah, that was a great picture of it.

1:29:16I was like born for this, you know like here's the way he looked and I was like this is amazing. Y'all got a photo somewhere I could? See it? Somebody pull it up. You got it on a phone or I'll have to find it. I do have a picture of it somewhere to get that because I bet everybody. Else going to see that too. That's alright. I feel like I'm giving you rapid fire and I don't usually do this like I don't have like a plan. Let me how they do that at the end of podcast or give you the 15 rapid fire. It's just stuff I'm curious about. I'm just all over the place, but you're aesthetic, your style. I like it.

1:29:46I've always liked it. We it's really I used to you've always got a great hat on. You always got incredible turquoise or something going on. You've always got a great look, like you walk a double RL model and is that have you have you always liked it? Do you do it yourself? What inspires the way you look? I definitely, it's definitely. Been a self thing. It took a while to, like, get, I've looked back a picture and like, you know, maybe this is just since I've known you. Yeah.

1:30:12Yeah, it took a while. It's always been a self, even in college. Remember, I was playing football in college and, and I was, we were playing shows, the band was playing like 50 shows a year while I was playing ball. And, and I'm like every thrift store, I met some guys that couple guys from Nashville actually that were into it like that. They just were like, oh, you got to check out these vintage Levi's and all. And I just have always been into, I don't know, I mean, that didn't line up with a football thing at all, but it just, I was always that guy, like I was a weird looking kid in the locker room, you know. And so I enjoy that.

1:30:46I also love perform. I went and saw Ben Harper, an innocent criminal that was in college, and he comes out and there's a silhouette behind him and he's got this western shirt he had. He's like silver eagles, like some sort of, I don't know. And and he put his hand up at the top and he's in the silhouette. And I was like, this is there's something about that is special about like this guy, even Tom Petty, when I saw him, his first thing was kind of putting his hands up like, you're welcome.

1:31:14You know, Like, and I don't have that sort of energy, but I love the idea of like, this guy knows he's a legend, knows these songs are important to people. They paid money. They're have all this anticipation. He's and he's here for it. Like this is he's owning it. Yeah. His is what we came from. He knows it. That's that's that's where Julian is in Charlotte Big Amphitheatre. And it was incredible. He's unbelievably alive. I saw. I saw him at Starwood Amphitheatre way long time. So it's like an old Nashville venue that's been closed for a long time.

1:31:41And then in I was at the at a hotel in, in Lai think it was the Montage. And there was a charity event for JPHRO. It's called something else now. That's Sean Penn's organization that he ended up helping all the earthquake victims in Haiti's where it started. And primarily it's it's a Haitian run group, but I think now they're in other countries too. Disaster relief. I got out in with him to the Paisley's and went down there a couple times and met Sean and got invited to their charity event.

1:32:09This is I didn't know what I was getting into. It was a small event and they said that there's a surprise musical guest every year and I was like oh that sounds cool. And I just didn't think much about it. And the surprise me because was Tom Petty 150 people. I lost my I'm a huge Petty fan. I lost my mind. I was like, you got to be kidding me right now. And it was like 2 years before he passed. I really got lucky to see him. Biggest inspiration artist wise.

1:32:34That's really tough. I would put it in like lyricist, you know, I really liked, I like Adam Durrett's for a certain period of time when I was coming up that was kind of like Dolls. I still, I love their weird stuff. But then, you know, in Springsteen, obviously I think the reverence that Springsteen has for life itself. But faith and all those things I always like. And way Springsteen talks about God is more reverent than most people who are trying to talk about God in their songs.

1:33:06You know, always. That's what you just did with this album. Right there, that's what you I. Couldn't say it earlier, but. The way you talked about what, you know, redemption and everything you talk about in that story, basically your story of overcoming something really difficult in finding the freedom to surrender, you did it in a way nobody's done it. Thanks man, I appreciate. That yeah, that that was always been so like lyrically there. But Joe Cocker, Otis Red, all the soul singer, gritty kind of yeah, I always look. Joe Cocker just looked like he was a mess. He was a mess just like he always looked so into the performance, you know what I mean? And I just, I always thought that was powerful. A gospel music for me growing up was like. So it was taught to me in a way that like you lean on this music.

1:33:51This is like how you get through and, and I think like writing in that way has always been important to me. It always felt cheaper when I wasn't doing that. So yeah, I think all those are. And then of course, I just, I think in terms of songs and things like that, I mean, Petty's one of them. Clearly sonically we're always like wildflowers is is like the Sonic gold record of all time to me because it's simple. We worked with Jim Scott got to engineer that record. Did you really?

1:34:21And and it was because we were just such a big fan like we worked, you know, so we went out California day. What a legend. And I go and you like this guy. I go I go first question I asked him like, how did you get the guitar tone? How did Mike Campbell get the guitar tone on honeybee? And he goes he goes Mike Campbell. I like I know, but like how did you he goes he goes there. He had two twins in there 250 sevens on there. It's it's the Heartbreakers.

1:34:47That's how they sound. And I was like, in one way that's devastating because you're like, I could never get this thing. But by the way, it was like, it was powerful. And that was he did the Outsiders record actually Jim Scott So and like, and it was a good example of back then he was, we did that outsider song on that record was a banjo kind of rock thing. And this is pre Mumford and Sons and all that. You know, it was like very odd. The label is like, don't put a banjo on there because nobody will play it, you know?

1:35:15But we did it. We did. I think we did two or three passes of that song. And he's like, come on in, let me get a hot mix together. You know, it's real, like the dude, California guy. So we learned a lot, obviously, from that experience of just being like, maybe the band has to feel good when they're playing the stuff down. And maybe the simplest thing is the best way to get to it. But every story that he had about that was like that, you know, it's like, there's no tricks. Like, quit trying to think about, like to go. It was early.

1:35:42So refreshing. Yeah. So we were all. That must be some desk you had. He's like, man, you know, Jim Scott didn't even know how to work Pro Tools. You know, he was like, I only do the stuff on the desk. So if there's a lot of channels, I just put more tape out there so we can figure out what they are. So I was a refreshing but also a challenging thing of like, man, these that my favorite Sonic record was just recording the most simple way possible.

1:36:08Just that band was that good. Says a lot about it. Well, you you I. Want I want to share. I know we got to land the plane here, so you've been so generous with your time. I got like 10 more rapid fires I'm going to do for you over coffee sometime if I can ever convince you to do it with me. I guess a couple of things I just love to nerd out on and know about. But you brought up Mumford and Sons and Marcus wouldn't mind me sharing this, but he's become a buddy over the years.

1:36:32And it's also been outspoken about an as an abuse survivor. And I remember when he wrote a very, very true and raw album that he did solo. And I remember right around Nashville with him listening to it. And I had an experience like I had with you. You weren't with me, but when I was listening to your album on the back porch earlier where it was highly emotional because it just felt so true and so raw. And I don't know what would happen with that other than it was just a, it was AI thought a beautiful way to tell the story. And, and Fast forward to a couple 2-3 months ago, whenever that I'm terrible with timelines, but whenever they came through Bridgestone and he hit me up and said, Hey, we're going to be at Bridgestone, You got to pop over. And I looked at the time.

1:37:19It's like 9:00 PM start and I'm a dad and I'm going to bed. And I was like, I love you. I want to come something. So I thought, I'm going to go over there and hug his neck, watch a couple of songs and head on home. And and I got lost in that arena. I was captivated. Now one could say, OK, it was Marcus Mumford and Mumford and Sons, but it wasn't because it was Marcus Mumford, the Marford sons. It was who Marcus was when he was on that stage. He was what I'm seeing here and what little I know you, I know Marcus a little better. He was integrated.

1:37:46He was in his truth, he was in his confidence, he was in his self. He was arrested. He was, he was surrendered. Yeah. And, well, it's. Huge that you say I'm I'm a big fan of what they do and recently the band is kind of because you know, they did a record with Dave and it and so we kind of talked a little about that whatever, but just like the whatever I told the man I'd like We all had listened the first couple singles for this new record and I don't know him.

1:38:10I never met him. I've never crossed at all, but I just told him I was like whatever is happening here is really they're in a good place. I was like, this music is pure and I was like, and it's like, so all of us have just been kind of what watching it alone. Like I'm not even on social media, so I can't follow really, but I'm like, send me the songs when they come out, new ones I'm following on iTunes or whatever. But I just, there's a you saying that makes a ton of sense to me.

1:38:37And I've seen that, heard that solo record and I knew a little bit of that story. But yeah, not knowing them. I think that is that's what we want to do, you know? And and that that the fact that I can tell from 1,000,000 miles away, I'm just like Holly, there's something so pure about this is powerful. It was palpitable that night. In the arena and I think there's a bit of a myth in in the creative space, which we acknowledge that part of the myth is actually true that some of the best arts created from some of the darkest spaces that we talked about.

1:39:11Joe Cocker, you know that the messes of the world that we're captivated by because they're living their pain story out loud. But there's also a redemption, reconciliation story that you can also live out loud and you can bring the pain into that because people are different parts of their journey. But that's the part that doesn't get told as much how the Bruce and Patty's of the world end up building this long term great marriage. And Bruce is still out there doing his thing.

1:39:33And I can give you 100 other examples of people who have built long term sustainable careers, long term sustainable relationships. And they're still out there in their pure truth, doing what they, they love to do. And ideally more of them say at the middle or the end of an album cycle that I'm actually enjoying this. And so I guess I'd say that's my hope for you because I, I, I would say that night that I was with the last time I was with Marcus and Mumford, it was good for all of us.

1:40:00It was really good for all of us to be a part of that experience and be in it, and I felt that way when I listened to your album. I was like, this is good for me to be into his art and now I can see it's crazy translates. You know, it's like the the band has talked about this a lot recently and it's just we've just started to learn, you know, the in the last six months, you know, we're playing some of this material and we're the the like, whatever you want to culture or whatever it is, you know, it's like, but the truth is it's just like, man, we are enjoying this and such.

1:40:32The the pressure comes from a different place. It's only personal and that sense like we want to do the best we can, has nothing to do with outside sources and all that. It just and it gets to be real beautiful. You kind of like you see Bruce have that joy. You know, I got to meet him years ago. It was on the Taylor thing. He brought his daughter, of course, Like it was amazing because it's super 10,000 people are there. It's Alyssa, right? Yeah and no, but nobody.

1:40:57Knew who he was you know, so they're like longer be like, will you take a picture of me and Taylor's mom? I was like, no, you know so of course we're like let's go back to see see if they'll talk. He was incredibly gracious He was like, I mean, you know, out of all the people I've ever met, I was just like he's like how you tour you know what you what you're riding in you know, tell me about what you play. You know, it was just like this it that's one of the only I don't get nervous around like most celebrities.

1:41:27I just not one of the I'm not like a autograph chaser really, But that was one I felt like I told him because our first probably 10 years of our career, I was like every night before we walked out those 10 years, I would say to the band, pretend that Bruce is in the 2nd row. Wow. All right. We got something to play for more than just tonight. You know, it's like this is this needs to mean. What a cool strategy. Yeah. And. So I got to tell him that. Personally, he was like, oh man, that's such a huge honor. We really just anyway, but so I and I, I saw that too of like a picture of like a healthy guy who's still doing this this long.

1:42:01It's the only way you could do it is this long, you know? Well, I'm super excited, man. I'm. Excited for you. I mean, I'm excited for what this record and this art is going to do because I care about that kind of thing. I think that you guys are going to have a a lot better opportunity to change the world than people like me ever will, because just the people you're in front of every night, you're creating such a ripple. And but more than anything, I just, I'm excited for you as a human. Thank you, man, I really am.

1:42:24You talked about a couple of things we didn't get to. You know, I wanted to spend a little time on depression because I know you mentioned that one to some of your lyrics and recovering from depression and something I've navigated. So maybe they'll be a Part 2 at some point. Won't be able to talk some more about some of that stuff. But I'll just say I, I felt depth and I felt honesty, but I felt a lot of hope. It was hopeful because it's just good. So it's it's really good.

1:42:45You got a lot to be proud of. But as much as I'm excited about your art, I'm more excited about you as a dad and as a husband and as a human and as a friend. And I just, I this journey you're on is inspiring and I know it'll be inspiring to a lot of people that are listening it. And on behalf of all the listeners, I just appreciate your time today. Thank you, man. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Before we go, if any of this resonated with you, chances are someone you care about Mike could use this as well. So pass it on and remind them that they're not the only one trying to figure this out.

1:43:15This is how human school grows. If you could help us by subscribing and following along, we will notify you when our next episode is ready. I'm Miles Adcox and I'll see you next week.