Jan Fran - Wars For Your Attention

0:00I've come to understand that community is a deliberate act of love. Jan Fran has built an incredibly decorated career talking about things that matter. And today we're going to do just that. I just feel like a fundamentally different person to what I was. Probably not as happy a person. And, you know, I think that it's a real common feeling that I think a lot of people have, and I know that because I have, you know, hundreds, hundreds, hundreds of people who reach out and say, I don't know what to do.

0:31I feel like I'm going crazy every day. I feel like I'm going crazy. When you think of all of the people in Gaza, for example, and now, of course, Lebanon, I was born there. You know, I do see my son in... in all of the children. I can so see how you feel this responsibility to look out for all of them. You should make sure it doesn't destroy you, but also don't lose it, because it's incredible. If you are somebody that is an optimist, I heard the phrase yesterday, I'm a pessimist by intellect, but an optimist by will.

1:11Oh, who said that? Oh, I think it was like an Italian communist... So there you go, boys. We're all becoming communists now. That's the answer. This is the Vulnerability House. Today we have sort of a friend of the show. It's sort of a friend of a third of the show. Today is our guest. So Jan Francia. Hi, Jan. Hi. We usually work in fractions, so... That's how we communicate. I thought I was a friend of the show generally, but no, I think you're right.

1:46I am just a friend of a fraction of the show. That fraction there specifically. The Josh fraction. Yeah, I am so excited. And I'm more nervous than normal. It's like when you have a friend... I don't know. I just want everyone to know how great Jan is. And so it's like I'm really excited about how this chat's going to go. But to give a bit of context, Jan and I have known each other for, well, I guess we first met in 2010. 10 or 11? Yeah, maybe 15, 16 years.

2:15Yeah, yeah. So this is the first ever housemate I've ever had on the show. Oh. And actually Jan was technically my first ever housemate. Really? Yeah. I didn't know that. I had no idea. No. Yeah. So when, to more context. Was that very obvious from the way he lived his life? No. Um, no, I mean, he was a great housemate. You were a very, very welcome addition into that house for me. Oh, great. I can't speak for everyone else. I can't confirm they liked you, but I can confirm I did, yeah.

2:48Oh, wonderful. Well, for context for everyone, my wife Sophie got a job with this program that ran at the time in Bangladesh. Yeah, so we were on something called the Australian Youth Ambassadors for Development, so the AAD program, which is like a government, a DFAT program where they would send young Australians around the world to work, you know. sort of on a semi-volunteer basis. You get a stipend to work in various like grassroots organisations on the ground.

3:13I mean I say grassroots, I work for the UN. That's not grassroots at all. That's the opposite of grassroots. And I was unemployed and from my recollection you were unemployed for a bit of it as well over there or you didn't have that much to do. I can't exactly remember why, but we would drink. Josh, she's just said she worked for the UN. Let's not bring it back down again. Sorry, that sounds really insulting. People thinking you didn't have that much to do.

3:36This is the opposite of a bio. Oh, this is, I feel like this is, we're diving in. We're diving in. Jan's real strong at the top. I might have brought up something I shouldn't have brought up. I mean, in my recollection, Jan, you had really nothing to do. I don't know why you were there. I was there to work with the UN, which I did for nine months. However, 12 months in a year, and you're there for 12 months. So for three months, you're right, I was not really doing very much and kind of working out what I wanted to do because I actually left the UN job.

4:09And as is customary, 16 years later, you're shamed about it. Yeah, exactly. And then it's brought up by my former housemate, who I thought actually quite liked me. Turns out, next minute, this is an ambush. Well, the reason I bring that up is because we spent a lot of time together in the afternoons. Recently on a live tour that we did around Australia, I spoke about that time and that I struggled a lot at that point in time. And I think you know this, but like our relationship and specifically the amount of gin that we drank together in the afternoons was a huge part of keeping me sane.

4:54a support person is the wrong term, just friend in that time to try and unpack, negotiate, try and get a Garrick of understanding of a place like Bangladesh and the world. And I actually remember a specific conversation early on. We were talking about something and, I said something probably ridiculous and you said, you do realise you're like the minority in the world, don't you? Like you being a white guy from a private school in Melbourne and it is ridiculous to say that at that point in my life it hadn't actually occurred to me.

5:27And it really, that's one example of how brilliant you have been as a friend to open my eyes to the world a little bit and I feel like just such a better person for knowing you. So thank you. Josh, that's so nice. I mean, I really appreciate you saying that. And I remember those, you're right, I was drinking gin every day. So was it. And so were you because we lived in the same house drinking gin. And there were also these very cheap cigarettes that you could get in Bangladesh as well.

5:56So I was just like chuffing darts and drinking gin on the balcony for hours. It was like Ab Fab at your house. Yeah, just amazing. And I probably have, like if I had to guess, there was probably some like obnoxious that came out, no doubt, that was like, and let me tell you another thing, Josh, about the world. Later in the afternoon. Yeah, as the sessions progressed into the evening. But thank you so much for saying that. It was a very special time in my life.

6:26Well, should we get on to a bit more about Jan, rather than just Bangladesh? Yeah. Having talked about the parts where she wasn't employed, let's talk about some of the employment she has had, because it's very impressive. I have had some jobs, yeah. So Jan Fran has built an incredibly decorated career talking about things that matter. And today, we're going to do just that. We're going to talk about Jan Fran. Born Jeanette Francis in Lebanon, Jan's family moved to Bankstown, Sydney in 1989.

6:52In 2009, Jan began a cadetship with SBS before moving to Bangladesh in 2010 to work for UNICEF. From 2013 to 2019, Jan worked as a host and reporter for SBS's Feed and in 2019 created an opinion segment called The Frant for The Guardian. Can I pause you on The Frant on that date, 2019, because I think technically The Frant began in 2011 or 10 in Bangladesh. Oh, it did. Yeah, and I'm just inserting myself into your brilliance because I reckon you came up with that.

7:28And I don't even remember this, but you asked me to make the banner for it. I did. I do remember that. Now that you met. What? No. Do you have it? Well, I found- Josh is pulling out his computer. I'm pulling out my laptop. So this might- for people who want to see it, you might have to go to YouTube, but- Brian, you might need to help me describe it, but I found the original banner for the Frant. So how did it start? It was a blog at the start? It was a blog.

7:51Yeah. It was a blog and it was called the Frant and I wanted to continue doing it in Bangladesh. It's a great title. Yeah. I mean, I will never stop punting my name. And so this was the original banner headline that went across the top of the blog. Oh my God. Wow. So this is, okay, so what I'm seeing here is it says the frant and then it's just got a really big image of Josh Topless. really sure what the thoughts were there, but no, I mean, there's lots of different significant people, definitely of that time.

8:28Yeah. Mickey Rourke. Jocelyn Wildenstein. Is that it? Jocelyn Wildenstein. Yeah. Sarah Palin. Two women in a burka. Yeah. The Queen on a bike. It looks like Einstein's a movie. That's Albert Einstein on a bike. Josh was looking at it upside down. It still doesn't look like the queen upside down. Josh didn't make it as well. Okay, Albert Einstein. That's Einstein. Oh, man, that's amazing. Wow. That was really the Frant 1.0, wasn't it? I think so, yeah.

8:57You were there from the beginning. I feel honoured to be part of it because it's won awards now, hasn't it? It has, yeah. Award winning. I assume it was for editorial pitches. I mean, it does. Is this Walkley Award winning? Yes. Yeah, it is, yeah. For best commentary analysis. It does sound like Josh was trying to put his name on the card. Who do I speak to, actually? Mr. Walkley? It's like, do you know that photo with the Queen on a bike? I did that.

9:26I should be in the credits. So, yes, Walkley Award winning for best commentary, analysis, opinion and critique. Jan has hosted many other shows, including The Project, and launched many a podcast, including Sexism in the City, The Few Who Do, and Jan Fran has Issues. In 2025, Jan co-founded Etta Media with Antoinette Latouf, which includes a podcast title, We Used to Be Journers. Jan Fran has a rare ability to cut through noise and speak truth with both clarity and courage, all while making people feel seen rather than judged.

9:59We're all so happy you're here. My God, what a lovely bio. Thank you. Yeah, I concur with that bio. All true. Okay, so this is Vulnerability House. Yeah. As you know, Jan, we've got some Vulnerability House cards in front of you. How this works for people who are new to it, we have a deck of cards, and on each card there is a question that will hopefully prompt or invoke some sort of vulnerable memory or story from your life. And the top three cards, if you want to pick the top three cards, read each card out.

10:31And if one of them rings true to you or sparks a memory or something you want to talk about, I feel comfortable talking about, then that would be great. So yeah, if you... I kind of feel like, just before we do the card, I feel like for context, it might help for people to know... So we asked you to come on the show a while ago, and it was a few years ago now, and when we originally asked, the answer was no, which is totally understandable. And I just thought maybe before you answered the question, it might be, to give context to me, it might be good for people to understand why for you it felt like not now.

11:07I think I'm very judicious with when and how I'm vulnerable because I think it's an extremely potent thing and I don't think it should be, you know, like canvassed willy-nilly. Woven into a weekly podcast? So this is an intervention, actually, what I'm here to say. No, I think there's definitely a space for it, but I think it has to be like a considered space. And often when you're vulnerable, and I find this quite a lot with podcasts, and I mean even being on this one today, like I have to say I'm a little bit nervous.

11:44Mm-hmm. Um, because, you know, I've known Josh for 16 years and I know you guys and I know your podcast and sitting here, it feels like really intimate. And I would happily answer any question that you threw my way. But then there's also the element of it being received by the wider public. And then suddenly, you know, them having a stake or an opinion in your life and your world. And for the most part, it kind of, it goes okay. It goes fine. People actually tend to be quite lovely.

12:09And I imagine your audience is quite lovely. Um, but it, it does kind of go the other way for me. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. I don't want to share, this is going to sound, I would be curious to get your thoughts on how this sounds because I feel like this is, it might sound, might not quite land the way that I necessarily intend it to land. But I almost feel like there's things that the world doesn't really deserve to hear. Yeah. Because I don't know you.

12:36I mean, I know you guys, but I don't know those people. I don't know. You know, we're not in an intimate space. And I remember when my grandmother died in 2020, I just felt this very, very strong desire not to share that with anyone publicly. You know, even though you do share your day-to-day and all of your ups and downs, but that one is like I didn't want anyone to know. I didn't want anyone to – to talk about my grandma. I just wanted like keep her name out your mouth.

13:07Kind of why? You know what I mean? Does that register with you guys or am I being a bit – I can't think about Will Smith now but yeah. Hey, this was before then. This was, you know, real pioneer stuff. That's a big part of our – what we do is like working out what are we comfortable with sharing, what are we not. And there's so much that we don't share because it's no one's business and it's just not. On the card deck, if it was in the container, the inside says always vulnerable responsibly.

13:37And it's also a disclaimer in there about like vulnerability should never be forced and needs to be on your terms. And I think that's such and you need to be careful about what you share and also who you share it with, because not everyone has your best intentions at heart. And so with all of that, I totally understand what you're saying. And I think it's like... Some things have to be your own and sacred and not shared, I think. Yeah. Certainly with like just anyone.

14:04Yeah. But it's also, I think it's also like a good, like I think what we've always done is we've always been pretty aware of that, I think, since we started doing this, which is why we're always, like we take so much care to toot our own horn, but yeah. So much care in like how we edit it and make sure that the guest is able to listen to it before it goes out because we're not trying to like trip anyone up. We want to make sure that everyone is like very comfortable with what is put out there.

14:34Even if they've said it in the room, they might change their mind the next day and go like, actually, I feel really uncomfortable about that. So for the person to be able to feel comfortable, particularly because you're speaking to thousands of people who you don't know, Like, that's a very unique situation. Yeah. And I think, I mean, you guys are, like, very hyper aware of that because you've been doing it for so long. And you do really talk about things that are very personal.

15:00So I've kind of felt that from the beginning in terms of, you know, coming on this show this time around. And I think what's changed from last time is that I feel like something has been cracked open. Mm-hmm. With me that maybe hadn't been five or so years ago or maybe even six years ago when you first approached me, Josh. Yeah, yeah. There's been a sort of – I felt like I've been more vulnerable in the last two and a half years, especially with, you know, everything that's been going on in the world.

15:29You see, I kind of – it's very, very difficult for me to talk about it. Yeah. So, you know, that's already there. And it wasn't there in the same way as, you know, I was six years ago. I think I'm fundamentally a different person. And part of that is seeing a lot of what's been happening in the world and this slow sort of devolvement that, you know, I've noticed in a hyper way maybe because I'm so connected with what's happened in Gaza today. and now Lebanon.

15:56But I know that everybody also feels it because there does feel like a shifting of the world order in some way that is so much out of our control and, you know, techno feudalism and AI and all of these big sort of changes where you feel a lot of despair and a lot of helplessness. And I feel like I've just been really vulnerable about that as a coping mechanism. And so this time around when, you know, there was an opportunity to come on the show and to talk about that, I just feel like a fundamentally different person to what I was those years ago.

16:28I feel, you know, probably not as happy a person. Yeah. And, you know, I think that it's a real common feeling that I think a lot of people have. And I know that because I have, you know, hundreds, hundreds, hundreds of people who reach out and say, I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm going crazy every day. I feel like I'm going crazy. And I just wanted to speak to that. I just wanted to speak to that and to let people know that, you know, you're not going crazy.

17:01Other people also feel this way. Um, and you know, there is something in, in the solidarity of people feeling this way that actually makes you feel sane. Um, that the insanity is the sanest way to feel right now. You know, um, I just want to make sure that people know that because it helped me. So beautifully articulated. I feel like if you're paying attention to what's happening, you would be a strange person to be feeling happy, to be feeling joy regularly if you're really paying attention.

17:33And even you showing me that from, you know, 2010, Josh, the front and the banner that you made, you know, that feels like a profoundly different time. It does. Yeah. And, you know, I really lament that that time is gone and I feel like maybe we're in a worse time. Yeah. And that's been a really difficult thing to deal with. Of course. Surprise! We haven't even done the card yet. We haven't even done the card. We need to do the card. Oh, God. But anyway, you kind of, you have to move through that.

18:10I'm not bogged down by it. I know that that might sound a bit... I don't know, people might have trouble believing that, but I'm not. I feel like the more I feel this way, the more I'm kind of motivated to do something, you know. But, you know, I think we have to acknowledge it. So I'm really glad that we did it at the top as well. Yeah. Brilliant. Should we draw some cards? Yeah, let's draw some cards. Are you all right to keep going with cards now or do you want to take a break or anything?

18:39Oh, no, I'll keep going with cards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Well, the cards are there. Like I said before, there are questions, but obviously just keep picking a card until you feel comfortable with one that you want to talk about or one that brings up something you want to talk about. So go forth and card. Go forth and card. You grab three, read them out. All right. Well, here are the three. The first one was how did you express playfulness as a child and how do you express it now?

19:12When has leaning into curiosity taken you somewhere positive? All the time. That's a really easy one to answer. Yeah, that's very you, that. Curiosity, best fucking thing ever. It's a great invention. Yeah. Whoever invented curiosity. Yeah. It was Albert Einstein or the Queen. And then the final one is what's something you keep doing that you wish you could stop? Can I answer the last one first? Because there's something that just springs to mind immediately.

19:50I mean, and like feel free to like this episode can be about like that card if you want. It doesn't have to be all three. That's not usually the format to do all three cards. Well, I want to do all of these cards. You're sitting here on the desk and there's about 50. So we're going to be here for a long time, gentlemen. Let's do it. Okay. Let's do it. Buckle in. All right. What's something you keep doing that you wish you could stop? This one's an easy one for me because I think about this multiple times a day, and that is I wish I could stop going on social media.

20:24Oh, wow. I wish I could. And I've struggled with it for years, years. What's your poison? It's Instagram. Yep. It's TikTok. It's YouTube. They're probably the three. But running a media business has sort of made that need impossible to detach from. Yeah, of course. Yep. Right? So whereas previously you could say, well, this is sort of a hobby. I'm just having a bit of fun. I'm just scrolling. I'm just engaging with the world. Now when you come to Step Away – It's like, oh, you're being derelict in your duties as a professional.

20:58Oh, my God. So it's made it even more difficult. And I was struggling with it before then and I'm struggling with it tenfold now and I truly cannot see a way forward. It is an intractable issue for me. And I don't know whether that's something you guys experience or feel or have an answer for. You're not on social media at all. Josh is off it, yeah. Yeah, it's good. It's a privileged position. Yeah. I mean, I've experimented with different ways. For me, it's not so much just social media.

21:31It's more just the phone itself, I guess. But in terms of that, I've gone through periods of using a flip phone and then only being able to access social media through my computer and... essentially not having you know in um like i've compared it in the past to like in alcoholic terms it's like not having the flask in my pocket all the time yeah so it's just like essentially creating a bit of a bit of a harder barrier to entry so i am still checking it i'm still looking at it but it's not the habitual checking every second there's a moment of boredom Yeah.

22:09I remember you, Ryan, actually you were talking about it, maybe in one of the episodes of the pod, of using OneSec, which is like the app that you download and it just takes like 10 seconds to load Instagram anytime you open it and that kind of does something to the brain where the brain goes, oh, I've had enough time to think about whether I want to go on Instagram and I don't, and you end up using it less. That would not be strong enough for me now.

22:31Yeah, neither. That would not work for me now. Neither. The only way it works for me, I have an iPhone now, but the only way I can not have Instagram on my phone is I use a thing called Brick. I don't know if you've heard of that. I have, yeah. I use that and so my phone is bricked 24-7. So I can't access the internet on my phone or Instagram or anything like that. It's just blocked. So until I tap it on the thing again when I get home, if I do, which I never do anymore because it's now just become the norm, My phone is now not a path.

23:02I cannot access social media from my phone. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So it just means that I have breaks from it. And that seems to have worked for you because I've also downloaded another app called Freedom, which is where it blocks the particular apps on your phone so you actually can't get into them. Yeah. You can't get into them to deactivate them or to remove them either. And you can set sessions, block for 24 hours, block for this. And that was working for a period of time.

23:29But then it's like an addiction. It is. Yeah. It's like an addiction and I feel like it's devolving my brain. It's fraying my relationships. It is having this impact where I think fundamentally it is affecting what it means to be a human being. I know that that sounds dramatic, but I think fundamentally that is what it is doing. I think this is something that like so many people struggle with. I mean, this is sort of like to state the obvious that it's like a thing that everyone's struggling with.

24:00But I think in your situation where you do need to check it for your work, like you are sort of reliant on being across it. But do you put much thought into, it's like at a certain point, do you go like, well, do I need to change the work that I do in order to save myself? I mean... I just started this. You know what I mean? I know, I know, I know. But totally. Yeah. Like that, and I'll be honest with you, when we were working on the idea of starting the business, what took us so long to do it was this aversion that I had.

24:41And I said to Antoinette, who's my business partner, you all know, Antoinette Latouf, I just said, I don't want to be on the internet more than what I am now. I don't. I know it's going to be fundamentally bad for me. And, you know, she said, look, we need to manage this. You know, we can't be detached from the world. There needs to be some degree of management where it's not completely overwhelming you. And to date, I have not been able to work out what that management is because you have to be legible in the ecosystem, right?

25:13Like you have to be... Speak the language, know what's happening. Exactly, exactly. Especially if you're in this line of work. And in order to be legible, you have to spend a lot of time on it. You have to read it, you know, constantly. And it's constantly evolving and it's constantly, you know, best practice is changing and there's constantly new information. You have to get the right information out at the right time. And, I mean, you guys know all this.

25:34Anybody who creates any kind of content in these spaces knows this. But I think what it is fundamentally doing to us as humans is, is, you know that saying there's a space between stimulus and response? And fundamentally, that is where the space in which you grow, right? The space between what comes in, you have the space, and then what you put back out in the world from what it is that you've absorbed. Like that space is fundamental to you being a fully self-actualized human being, right?

26:09Anything that comes in... There's a mechanism by which you process it and then you put something back out in the world, right? And that space is so – it's such an important space. Or you don't put something back out in the world. You just process it. But that's your response. You know what I mean? Yeah, exactly. That's how you've sort of processed it. Yeah. Can I get the full quote? Is that all right? Of course. I really intend to be quoting this in this moment.

26:34But it's a quote that is, I think it's attributed to a Holocaust survivor called Viktor Frankl. And it is between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom. Yep. And so when you have that space shrinking, which I would argue social media does, actually what you have shrinking is your growth and your freedom. Because that space is what lends itself to your growth and your freedom.

27:06And when that goes, so does that. And I don't think a lot of people necessarily realize that in all the good things that we might get from social media, I have a business. You guys have a business. I'm sure it's been useful in some ways to your business, right? Like there is an advantage. Yeah. I don't think they realise that actually what you are giving up is fundamentally what is your right as a human being, which is to grow and to be free. But the thing is, it's like, okay, well, if I'm not the person that's trying to have a nuanced conversation on the internet, if all of the people who go, fuck this, I know it's destroying...

27:41Me, it's destroying my health. It's destroying my relationships. It's destroying – I'm out. What happens then? Who ends up taking over the conversation? You know, what are the messages that get proliferated out there with, like, no ballast against them? You know what I mean? So, like, what's – how do you balance the need to be, like, I want to be socially responsible? Yeah. in this space, but it's so difficult, but I can't just walk away because then you get a whole bunch of misinformation that has no defense against it.

28:10And also there's a, there's a guilt that comes with not engaging with the world as well that you have to work through. You know, you, you're like, I'm ignoring all of this terrible stuff that's happening just to live in my own little world. How can I contend with that? When I'm someone who is so outward facing and, you know, wanting to do good and wanting to, you know, make the world a better place and all these sort of very lofty goals, but that is inherently what's inside.

28:33So it's also managing that as well. Yeah. You know, how you feel when you switch off. Can I, I can't stop thinking about something you said before. You said before you felt like, this is before you even did the card, you just said you feel like you've been cracked open. Yeah. And I wondered, because I've had the same experience and it's very simply one thing that has done that to me, it's being a parent. That's what's cracked me open completely. And I don't know if that, we didn't get to what it was that's cracked you open.

29:01Is being a parent part of that or do you know what it is that's kind of cracked you open and are you comfortable talking about that? Yeah, I mean, I think being a parent has a bit to do with it because when my son was born, I just became hyper-aware of how, like, innocent and precious and little he was. I couldn't believe that something so little could exist in the world. And so fragile. Did you feel that as well? I imagine lots of parents would have that feeling.

29:37Yeah, yeah. I... Yeah, there's certainly a weight of like, holy shit, this thing is so, like this is all up to me and Soph to keep this thing alive. Yeah, yeah. This beautiful, perfect thing. It's like, yeah. Yeah. There was something about the perfection or the innocence, the fragility that didn't square with what I knew the world could be. Um, and I, I was very, I, I, I'd get a lot of intrusive thoughts, which is something I haven't really spoken about before.

30:14Um, um, so it might be a bit difficult to talk about, but, um, just a lot of intrusive thoughts of bad things happening to him and, and people doing bad things to him. And, um, I would think like, how could, how could anybody do a bad thing to a child, um, You know, like here I am. There would be times when he would be sleeping in bed next to me, you know, and I would just be staring at him like I can't turn my eye away. I can't look in that direction just in case something happens to him.

30:44And he's just asleep, you know, next to me. Um, but it was this, this like very hyper vigilance. Um, and then I started thinking about other people's children and other people's children. Okay. And other people, good parents to their children. Just these, these sort of thoughts that had previously never entered my head at all. You know, like my friends are wonderful parents. I, I, I, I, I, Certainly as far as I know and as far as I can see, everybody is really good and loving to their children.

31:14And I very fortunately came from a wonderful family. I'm only surrounded by wonderful families but couldn't get these thoughts of just – mistreatment and abuse. And I would, sometimes I would drive past, you know, just be driving and you'd look in the window and you'd see like a family in the window or a family loading their car in the driveway. And the first thought I'd have is, is that child okay? Wow, yeah. And so it just kind of became this hypervigilance of just destroyed innocence or something that I couldn't bear.

31:50I couldn't bear it. Even, you know, from the minute my son was born, which is in 2022 – to now. It's such an intense feeling, which is when, you know, you start seeing all the sort of horrific images of children crying and being hurt and being slaughtered and their limbs blown off and crying for their parents. And it just magnified whatever that was that I had about my son to a level that I couldn't, could not cope with anymore. You know, could not process, but then I couldn't look away.

32:29I couldn't do it because then what would I be if I was looking away? Somebody that was ignoring it or pretending that it wasn't happening? You know, I couldn't do that. I could not do that. And those thoughts are relentless? They're relentless. They are relentless. They're just, yeah. It's so much, Jen. It's so much to carry around. I know, and I know it's not okay because I'm on my third shrink, you know. I know that it's not okay and I know that it's not a sustainable way of being.

33:09And I'm trying to work through a way that this is manageable. Yeah. But the intrusive thoughts are just, they are relentless. And then to be told that, oh, yeah. No, what you saw you didn't see, actually. No, it's not that bad. Oh, no, we can't call it a genocide. Oh, no, this definition is one that we have to actually really think about and talked about in this incredibly prosaic and managerial and administrative way. When you've just seen something that has made you, like, dry wretch into a bin...

33:46that's also been incredibly, it's been crazy making. And you feel like you are going insane. And I think that, you know, a lot of people would be feeling that way. I know because they tell me why I think we need to talk about that and actually how we approach being in this moment and having to engage with what is a live stream genocide on our phones and wrestling with these feelings. And some people can do it better than others. And you know what?

34:12Some people are not engaged with it at all. And I know they have a guilt around not being engaged with it and not being engaged with, you know, all the other terrible things that are happening in the world as well. So I think there was already that vulnerability element of it when my son was born, which was I started having these sort of thoughts that I couldn't quite understand where they were coming from and I still don't. So we very recently chatted to a perinatal psychiatrist and she spoke about how one of the things that happens in matrescence is that the brain, the mother's brain, has a heightened sense of worry and anxiety.

34:55It's quite a natural thing to happen. And so I can't help but think about that conversation when we're talking about the worries that you extrapolated out, not just for your child, but for, it sounds like every child in the world. Did you chat to any specialists on the topic of perinatal mental health at the time? No, and I didn't even think to, to be honest. I just thought that that was something that happened recently. when you had a baby. And I think there are some natural anxieties that happen that you maybe you don't necessarily need to see a specialist or a health professional for, because you're sort of adjusting to having this new person that's so fragile in the world.

35:41But I didn't think to, I thought it would be something that would dissipate. And I think that, you know, Had the live stream genocide not happened and, you know, the abject horrors of what was streaming into my screen every day, maybe if that had not happened, maybe that would have dissipated as he got older and a little bit more robust. But... I didn't even have the thought that maybe this was an intrusive thought. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah.

36:14I was like, maybe this is a thought. Yeah. I had a – I couldn't really – I mean, I can now because when I look back at it and, you know, with what's happened subsequently. But I think even back then I really couldn't discern the difference between a thought and an intrusive thought. Mm-hmm. They're all just thoughts that you're having. Of course. Like thoughts just pop into your head, don't they? Yeah. But some of them can be like quite menacing and come out of nowhere.

36:41This is the thing. I mean, I'm not an expert on intrusive thoughts, but they're detached from actually what's happening, the reality of it. They're just the thought that's kind of popped in. Yeah. And maybe in hindsight, maybe I should have, but I didn't even think about it. Mm-hmm. I completely understand what you're saying. So my wife, who is an enormous fan of yours, she also has intrusive thoughts a lot linked to her OCD. And I know when she's having those intrusive thoughts, it's not like they'll sort of be with her for a few minutes and then she'll get half an hour response.

37:19It's just they're always there. Is it kind of like that for you? Do you get moments where like, oh, finally they're gone? Or is it multiple times a day? Look, I have, because I've engaged with so much of it, and this is the thing, I used to work at SBS many, many years ago and this is when I first started. I was logging footage in the news library. So there was a literal library that had tapes and all of the episodes would get recorded onto the tapes, right?

37:49This was in 2006. And I was working in the news library and what you would have to do is log each shot. So it's like exterior, wide shot, park, park. Mid-shot exterior, mid-shot man walks. You know, every single shot so that the SBS could know what was in their archive. If you needed to pull up a shot for B-roll or whatever it was and you needed a wide shot of a man walking in a park, somebody had logged that. That was done manually. Right. And hopefully things have changed.

38:18Not a great job. I wouldn't recommend it. We'd like to think that there's some machination that allows this to happen easier, although that's a job gone anyway. That's another thing. But that's what I was doing. And I was doing it during the Iraq war. So, you know, the invasion of Iraq was from 2003 onwards. And I would be logging the footage that came in from Reuters and AP, which is the wire services. And sometimes the stuff that came in on those footage, on those tapes that were sent to us, you couldn't air.

38:48It's unfiltered. I mean, it's a little bit filtered. Reuters is not going to put the most hectic stuff, but for the most part – Some of it was just you absolutely could not put it to air. But I was seeing that. It was like your own personal infinite feed. Yeah. But that was, you know, in 2006 doing that and you understood that, okay, I'm coming into the office, I'm doing it from nine to five, there's scaffolds here that allow for me to stop doing what I'm doing.

39:15Other people will then take over. There's some kind of like mental health recourse. If it's too much for you, you can call someone and speak to them and, you know, go through that or whatever it is. And that was really traumatic and I still have to this day visions of stuff that I saw in 2006. I can remember it vividly. So I fast forward to now and there's no scaffold. There's no – no one else is coming to do this shift. There's no mental health plan.

39:44I'm not in the office. I'm at home. I'm in bed and the phone is here and my son is here. Yeah. You know, and my family is here. This has come into all of our spaces. And so there was a recognition then that it was bad what you were consuming and you needed to be very, very careful. And it seems like all of those boundaries have disappeared. And that's an incredibly, like, dysfunctional, not sustainable way of being. It will destroy you. Who do you turn to in those moments where you're feeling, I mean, you mentioned therapy, but I'm wondering partner or friends or.

40:24Yeah. Look, therapy is one thing and therapy has been helpful. In terms of my partner, I don't want to tell him everything. I don't want both of us to descend into the abyss. There needs to be someone else. We've got a son. You know what I mean? There needs to be someone that's able to pull the other person out if need be. I can't have him where I am. And that's a protection mechanism. I think I want to protect him and almost a pragmatism around this can't be a house of grief.

41:01It can't be a cemetery. We can't live in a cemetery, you know, and that's sometimes what it can feel like. And... The balance, balancing that, you know, it's been really difficult. It has been, you know, one of the most difficult challenges that I've faced in my entire life, I will tell you right now, because I can feel myself fraying from it and I don't know what to do. And that is the vulnerability element of it, is that I don't know what to do.

41:38And that is so scary because you represent billions of people in the same position. That's what is so scary is that we don't know what to do. There's, you know, we talk a lot about, And this is something that I've had to find in this time. It's like, what is the antidote to this? Because there's no easy fix. There's nothing that's going to take you back to what it was like, you know. I was really hoping for the 90s, mid-90s. Yeah, sure. Let's go back there.

42:07Let's go. You know, 2016 was the meme that I think everyone's feeling it. You know, everyone was posting. Yeah. pics of themselves in 2016, there's a longing for that nostalgia in a way that is coalesced. Everybody's feeling it, right? And I think in this time, like you asked, you know, who do I turn to? I've deliberately built community. I've come to understand that community is a deliberate act of love. It is a doing. It is a verb. You're doing like a physical community.

42:37Yes. A community of people. It's bringing people together. That's one thing. It's understanding. Not online, like in person. No, no, in real life. Yeah. In real life. I mean, there are spaces that we exist online. Obviously, we have our WhatsApp chats and even on social media. But primarily, it's an understanding that I see you. I can see you. Physically, I can see you. I know where you are physically. I know who you are. We've come into the same space together.

43:01This has been really, really important. Yeah. Just an understanding of like, right, this person needs to meet this person. They just do. I know it. They're both feeling a certain type of way and they both have these discernible skills and they both feel like there is this energy that they need to harness and put somewhere. They need to meet each other. So it's a matter of calling up this person and calling them out as we're doing a thing and you're coming and you're coming.

43:25And it's, you know, it's deliberate and it's, it's very, it's almost, it's almost mandatory. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because I've always had a community. I felt, you know, you go to university, you meet some people. You're in high school, you have some friends, and they're your friends below. You invite them over. You go to Bangladesh, you meet Josh, and Josh stays in your life in and out. And that's how you accumulate people. But this time has been a very different time for me because it's been trying to understand that – If I don't deliberately build this community of people who are – it's not even being like-minded.

44:00It's people who are where I am. And they're out there. I know they're out there. If you do not deliberately try and build them and coalesce them together, you will be destroyed from the inside. That community is truly the ballast to all of the horror that you are seeing in the world because you can't control – everything that's out there, but you can build connections with people that are close to you in real life, that are not tainted by the algorithm, that will not come and go at the whims of, you know, whichever billionaire decides they want to connect you with whoever they want to connect you for whatever agenda.

44:45And then when shit hits the fan, they're there, you know. And it's a community that coalesces around solidarity, right? rather than, you know, You think of the way communities coalesce. It's usually proximity, right? I live next door to someone. You build a relationship with them and then they become somebody that's in your life. It's like-mindedness. I have a similar hobby. I'm going to go cycling with this person and that's what draws you and that's how you build a community.

45:12Faith is another big one that builds community. But for me, what has been the glue has been solidarity, which is very different to all of those things, and that is you risk solidarity. something for the other person. Can you give an example? I sort of know what you mean. Yeah. I mean, the one that just pops to mind the most is, you know, when Antoinette was fired from the ABC, which we now know cost the ABC $2.6 million to defend in the federal court.

45:44Christ only knows why they went down that road. But God bless him. It was the people that stood up publicly and said, this is fucked. Yeah. That have developed into a community of people. Right. And that's because what they did was they risked also their reputation. Yeah. I'm doing inverted commas. Yeah. They risked possibly their relationships that they might have had with some other people, perhaps. Maybe they risked their, I don't know, personalization.

46:15professional standing, whatever it is. And look, maybe the risk wasn't that high for others. Maybe it was higher for some depending on who they were. But that act of solidarity, that's like we're tight. Yeah. come what may, baby, because it's all good when the sun is shining, you know. But when it's not, who are the people that are going to be standing right next to you? And often it's the people who've risked something to be there, you know. And so those two things have been really, really powerful, community and solidarity.

46:51And action. Yeah. Action is really the antidote to despair. Yeah. And the building of this media company, you know, it's a course of action to try and counter that despair, that feeling of helplessness, that I'm just one person, you know. I think it's been very affirming to be able to build something. not just feel like you're constantly tearing things down and this is bad and this is bad and this is bad, even though we do say this is bad and this is bad.

47:21There's lots of things that are bad. But, you know, to build a community around a kind of common understanding, you know. And I always try to come back to those three. And they've been really helpful for me in this time. That's great. That's so good. Yeah, I mean, such concrete things you can turn to because there has to be something. We can't just live in the despair and we can't just live in the hopelessness all the time. To have things to turn to, that's so good.

47:50Yeah. And you need a break from it. You do need a break from it. I'm not very good at doing that. So I'm, you know, kind of like I'm talking shit a bit. Yeah, yeah. But you need to. Hearing the anchors that you've discussed today, to me, for me, it feels like it would provide me with some form of hope. How does that feel? How does the word hope resonate with you? I'm happy for you. I love that for you. I'm glad it does. I'm glad that hope is anchored in something, right?

48:39I don't love hope. It's never really resonated with me. I find it like very nebulous and intangible. Like you can't grasp it, you can't touch it. It's not in the present and it's always in the future. I have a hope that the future will be different. Whereas for me, the question is always how. So what is it in this present moment that you can implement that will get us there? Don't worry about hope. That doesn't – It is almost meaningless to me. I'm very drawn to pragmatism of like, okay, what can we do in this moment?

49:12And I think if you do the things in this moment, which is the building of community and the forming of solidarity and the action, you know, the outcome will be the outcome. It'll be the right outcome. Um, and so I don't, I don't focus too much on having a hope for the future. I tend to focus a little bit more on, um, the, the anchors that pull me to the present moment. And there's also like, for me, hope I find to be a bit meaningless because it's not a measure of anything for me.

49:39Um, I think, you know, the, the, the measure is always when my time comes as it will come for all of us, the measure is always going to be that I did what I could. Yeah. And if I can say yes to that question, then I'm good, you know. So that always brings me back to now of like, are you doing what you can? Yeah. And if the answer is yes, you're good. Yeah. So I don't traffic in hope too much. What would be your ideal... living condition in terms of this, in terms of giving yourself a break?

50:22If you could properly do it how you wanted to, how would you, what's your North Star? If I could properly be in this world and really be engaged with it and do the work that I do but do it sustainably, I think we would probably need to grow a bit more and have a little bit more space for me to hire somebody to do the thing that I now currently do. I think it means working less, which like when you're in the throes of starting a business is very difficult.

50:53And I understand that. And we're not even a year old. You know what I mean? So like right now, working less is not a feasibility, but it is something that is possible. Yeah. Something to work towards. Exactly. So if I was in an ideal blue sky world, you know, it's been a couple of years. There's a way for me to sort of step back from the day to day of it. and, you know, build some other branches that are slightly more, you know, longer term. I've got another project, which is a long form documentary that I'm working on.

51:18And every time I work on that, I feel like my brain flips into a different Yeah. Does it feel good? It feels so good. I can imagine. It feels so good. Yeah. I'm like, wait a minute. I only have to think about this thing. And I can take time. Yeah. And I don't have to have a thought on it now. That's crazy, you know. But my brain has been so geared to – It started doing very funny things. And I'm curious. I mean, you guys are all sort of public facing and you would.

51:52I wonder if you experience this as well, where your brain starts anticipating what the feedback to you is going to be. And then so it starts to create a response to the feedback to what you are anticipating it to be. And none of this is real. It hasn't happened. It may not happen. but your brain is suddenly working overtime. Yeah. So rather than having a thought, it's had a thought about a thought about your thought. Yeah. And all the while, while you're just waiting in the coffee line at the library.

52:27You know what I mean? Oh, for sure. Yeah. I'm aware of it as a real problem for me. Yeah. And self-censoring, self-monitoring. This is a very, like, I don't engage with the sort of public-facing Instagram comments and stuff as much as I used to because I know I just, my brain can't handle it anymore. But recently I was like, I think I'm pretty good with this. Like I think I've got it like because I saw one and I was okay with it and then I saw another one and I was like, you prick.

52:56I was like and I just went into overdrive. But then it made me automatically think of like a lot Like if we're going to do this interview, what are people going to think? And I think as soon as you get in that mode, for me, I know it's over. If I'm thinking in that way of like what's the most – an unreasonable person's criticism of this going to be – then I know I'm in a bad place and I just have to, my workaround at the moment is to share it with Bridge or share it with Ryan or Hugh or Bella or George or someone in the team to say it out loud to a human being in person and have a discussion and be like, oh, no, I'm getting stuck in that thinking trap again because I think our show would no longer cease to work if I was trapped by too much of that.

53:48with that is something that we talk about a lot internally, like kind of we've mentioned it on air a few times, but the idea of like care and like such a big part of, you know, what we do on the Imperfects is, you know, trying to find topics. At the heart of it, it's sort of care for the people who are listening. You know, we're trying to kind of make people feel less alone by bringing up subjects which are really sometimes hard confronting But then on the flip side of that, we also talk about caring internally, like for ourselves.

54:21And it's a really tricky balance, but to be able to have these really difficult conversations and to bring these conversations to people from a care point of view. But then at the same time, depending on any individual's personal experience or life situation, some conversations can be really tricky and damaging and hard and can stick with you. And so it's trying to find that balance, um, is, is, is a really, is a constantly moving, it's a constant conversation.

54:55Um, so yeah, that, that's the only thing that comes to mind with that. Yeah. Um, I am jumping a bit back into something, but I, I have always known you as such a, um, I hope this term comes out right, but like a fighter. Right. And I've admired this about you since the moment I met you basically, that you have this or you appear to have this strength and this ability to stand up for things and fight for things that I don't think I necessarily see in myself or if I don't see it in myself, it's that maybe it's there but it's not quite as a well-versus muscle.

55:36But I just wanted to acknowledge many of the things you've talked about I totally understand why your brain, when you said, why would I think about that child of someone's family when I'm driving past them, when you know and are so aware of how bad the world can be and you see how beautiful a young child is, I can so see how you feel this responsibility to look out for all of them. And it just makes, I just want to say that it might feel like it's destroying you, but it's one of the most beautiful things about you.

56:09And I just – I don't think you should – you should make sure it doesn't destroy you, but also don't lose it because it's incredible. Thank you for saying that. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, but also it doesn't have to be your job to save everyone. No, I know. And every child's. She's very good at it, though. No, I know and I do see, you know, I do see my son in all of the children. Yeah. That's why, you know, I think what if my son was, you know, my son, my little boy, the most perfect little boy, you know.

57:08And I know it means that, like, I am a feeling person, evidently, and I don't want to lose that. I don't want to lose that. But it's so hard to... to not let that destroy you, to not let that wear you down and turn you into a contemptuous person and a calcified, a person that's, you know, calcified with hate and anger and rage at the world, you know, because I don't want to be that person. I'm not that person. I was never that person. To your point, like when you say like you're a fighter, that's because you are inherently an optimist.

57:56You must be. Mm-hmm. to fight in whatever way you're choosing to fight because you must believe that the fight is for something. Otherwise, why are you fighting? We haven't seen each other in person in a long time. But like I, that, that, the light and joy and, um, The optimism, it's all there. I don't see that light diminished at all. I know that there's so much more going on for you now, but it doesn't seem like it's gone to me. And I think there's so much you can just feel at the moment you're around you and you're a joy to be around.

58:39Oh, that's so nice. Yeah. It just feels you don't radiate anger. You radiate a zest for life and to engage with the world in whatever. Yeah, you're fully engaging with the world, that's for sure. But there doesn't seem to be anger as an emotion that comes across. And yeah, for what it's worth. And I also feel like I need to admit something that I think is, because you've alluded to it a couple of times, And I don't know if I've gotten the balance right, but for me, I don't engage with, well, I don't really have social media as a feed, which means that I don't engage with a lot of the content that you're talking about.

59:21Yeah. And it's by design because I know that if I was to go head first into engaging with the realities of what's going on in the world that my ability to be the dad that my kids need me to be would disappear and I would lose myself in it. And with that statement comes a lot of shame and guilt because I think when you grow up, you want to be the person that, like I have this idea of myself being, I'm going to be the person that can face the tough stuff and do the right thing.

59:50And I think potentially I've maybe dropped the ball a bit in some areas and I'm trying to still do the right thing. But it's, I feel a sense of guilt for not engaging with the world as much as I should have because I feel that as soon as I do, I'm letting down the most important people in the world to me. Yeah. And to admit that, and to say that out loud because I think a lot of people feel like that as well. And the truth of the matter is that you might be, you know, and that's been a very hard lesson is that in engaging with the world so much, you know, my family has maybe taken a second seat to that.

1:00:34And that comes with a tremendous feeling of guilt. And, you know, I think my son is maybe he's too young. He might not immediately notice it. But certainly my husband does. And so, well, what does it mean if you are engaged in the world so much that actually you lose one of the most important things to you? Because it will erode your ability to be present. It will absolutely erode your ability to be present. And it will erode your ability to find the joy in small things because you're constantly thinking elsewhere than what you are.

1:01:18Yeah. So I think that that's a wise decision, you know, but it's also one that, like I said, has to be constantly managed because you also don't want to be that person, Josh, that doesn't engage, that ignores and doesn't engage with anything. Agreed. Yeah, absolutely. You're not that person, you know. And especially someone who knows it out there and is sort of deliberately, you know, choosing not to look at it. Like there's a feeling of understanding that that's not, that doesn't square with who you are necessarily.

1:01:54But it's a constant case of management. Yeah, and trying to work out a way it's a balancing act. There's guilt either side, there's shame either side, but trying to work out a way to engage. And with so much of what we've focused on one aspect, but as you alluded to, there's the future of AI, there's climate warming, there's so many fucking things going on in the world that it's a real constant struggle to work out how do I engage, how do I exist as a decent human being in the 21st century?

1:02:27I think that that's the key question. And if you're a fighter, you know, if you are somebody that is an optimist, I heard the phrase yesterday, I'm a pessimist by intellect, but an optimist by will. Whoa. Who said that? Oh, I think it was like an Italian communist. So there you go, boys. We're all becoming communists now. That's the answer. But, you know, there is an element of that, which is like where you know that, you know, things are really bad and they're really devolving.

1:03:00But you are determined by... You are determined to believe that there can be a better world. You must believe that there can be a better world. And you must believe that there are good people that are worth fighting for. That's what everybody's fighting for. This is a glaringly obvious thing to say, but if everyone was like you, we would not be in this position that we're currently in. If everyone thought about other people's kids the way you do, we wouldn't be here.

1:03:27No. Just to really point out how correct your position is and acknowledge the sacrifices you make to be that person. Yeah. It's also like, I think this is like... So generous, you being so vulnerable and being here and talking about all that. I think there'll be a lot of people who can see themselves in you. And I think that's really powerful as well because there's a lot of people, obviously, who feel exactly how you feel. And for you to be so generous to really show yourself here.

1:04:07for us and for everyone watching or even listening. It's really powerful and connecting. Thank you. I really appreciate you saying that. And, you know, I do just want to sort of make a point as well that like there's also a guilt in doing this because like really when you think about it, I'm okay. I have a wonderful family and I have my health and I have my work that I find and derive meaning from. And I have my friends and I have my yoga and I have, you know, like I'm okay.

1:04:44And so there's a guilt in feeling this way when you think of all of the people in Gaza, for example. And now, of course, Lebanon, you know, we haven't even really spoken about that. I'm from there, obviously. I was born there. And to see the destruction and to see the people. And again, it's always like it's my boy that's there, you know. Particularly Lebanon. I mean, you must feel that so deeply when you look at what's happening there. It's debilitating.

1:05:16It's honestly debilitating because... It doesn't even come from a place of, it's like, I'm begging you, please don't destroy that country. You know? And so to see it get destroyed just before your very eyes in a way that you can't stop, there's a feeling... really of helplessness. But I always go back to the people that are there. I'm not there. So there is feelings again of guilt and shame in being this person. Like there's a complexity to it which is just like I just shut the fuck up, you know?

1:06:00And like I wrestle with that. I know it's not fully the correct answer. I think I get what you're acknowledging, but I also think you shouldn't feel guilty for caring and also what you're doing. hopefully will inspire people to care more, to build strong community and to take action. The very things that you were advocating as help for you. So I get what you're saying, but hopefully the knowledge that by you doing this, it might go some way to making the world a better place.

1:06:36And that's cliche and corny. Hopefully that obfuscates some of that guilt. But I get your point. Yeah. It's always just, it's always very sort of top of mind. And if I'm really honest with you, it's like there is a rage, unbridled rage that I have that, you know, needs to be harnessed. Because it really is about seeking justice. Mm-hmm. not so much peace. I don't think you can have peace without justice. You know, there's that very famous like protest slogan, no justice, no peace.

1:07:11How does it come if there's no justice? Yeah. You know, and that becomes a, you look at that, you're like, how's that going to come about? You know, and that's when things feel really, really insurmountable. And I always, always just have to come back to those, the three, the anchors, the community, the solidarity, and the action. There's nothing else. Mm-hmm. It's a great word for it, anchors. Anchors. Yeah. Because the way I would describe being in this moment is unmoored.

1:07:41Yeah. And so, you know, to continue the sailing metaphor, when you are in that state, it's like you need something to anchor you. Yeah. And it is those three things. Wow. Yeah. I usually like. Do like a summary of – or try and – Well, I mean, that's the first card. There is 49 to go. Yeah. I don't know if you want to move on to the next one now. Are there any areas of your life that you feel you've given away your autonomy? How might you work to reclaim it?

1:08:20All right, here we go. Did you say we have an hour for each card? Is that weird? I'm going to hand over to Josh to do the – to summarise the chat if you feel comfortable, Josh. I think there are so many people in the world at the moment who see things very differently and it's extremely difficult to talk about that and to have any kind of nuance or complex conversations. And I think today has felt like an incredible... human conversation that you've brought, Jan, of what it's like to live in the world at the moment.

1:09:04And knowing you for so long, I don't think I've ever seen you be so vulnerable. Yeah. I don't think I ever have. Even in private with no microphones. And I know what a huge thing this is. why I can only, I can guess that it's a huge thing for you. And I think what you've done, I think will help so many people out there to feel less alone. Uh, and I think you've given them some phenomenal anchors to help them through this. Uh, and we're so lucky that not only that you do the work that you do outside this room, but that you've done what you've done today.

1:09:39So thank you so much for coming and talking. Well, thank you so much for having me. And I've got 24 hours to pull the pin on this episode, don't I, if I don't want to? Yeah, yeah. We'll give you 26. Yeah. If you enjoyed this episode and want a little more, you might enjoy our subscriber-only eps, available on Patreon and Apple Podcasts. If you want a little more but don't want to pay any more, then you can join our newsletter at theimperfects.com.au.

1:10:06And while you're there, you'll be able to see the names and faces of all the incredible people who helped make this show. A show made on the lands of the Wurundjeri, Woiwurrung people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present. The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.