Episode 17 - Jack Dargan

0:10SPEAKER_01:What is up guys? Welcome back to another episode of In Plain Clothes. We have another guest for you today. It is a another warm Sunday, um, but we're getting through. The aircon is blasting. Uh, and today's guest is special because we've actually had his partner on many weeks ago in Jason Winters. So um that should already give you a clue as to who this is. Uh, my guest today has spent the last 10 plus years performing in musicals and operas such as La For uh if I can sp if I can pronounce this right, La Forza del Stino.

0:37SPEAKER_01:Better than me. Um Moulin Rouge, Bodyguard in Pieces, we will rock you. He's also danced uh for concerts, BBC and ITV productions, pantos, game shows, cruise ships, adverts, and movies such as Pitch Perfect 2, Rocket Man, House of Jojo, um McDonald's, Fire Dance, Winter Wonderland, and worked with artists including Little Mix, Shania Twain, Johnny Depp, Johannes Radaby, uh AJ Pritchard, Tarant Edgerton, Holly Willoughby, and Elton John. So please welcome Jack Dargan.

1:08SPEAKER_01:Thank you. How are you doing today? I'm good.

1:10SPEAKER_00:How are you doing?

1:10SPEAKER_01:I'm good. I'm uh I'm a little bit tired, but we're we're we're all good. It's it's a pleasure to have you on here. Thank you. Um yeah. How has the past like week been for you? Has it been it's the end of the week? It's really chill.

1:23SPEAKER_00:I only worked two days this week.

1:24SPEAKER_01:So is that at the um West End Tales?

1:28SPEAKER_00:No, I'm working at Phantom of the Opera.

1:30SPEAKER_01:Oh, lovely.

1:30SPEAKER_00:Yeah. How's that going? Have you been working there a while? I've been there on and off the past couple of years. I started before I went to do Mulan Rouge and I was there for like six weeks.

1:38SPEAKER_02:Okay.

1:39SPEAKER_00:And I just absolutely loved it. And then I was like, when I was coming back, I was like, hey, yeah, I'm back. So if you need any help. So I'm just sort of like a depth, so I just go in when they need cover.

1:49SPEAKER_01:Um did you and um because obviously you and Jason have both done Millen Rouge. Is that where you met originally?

1:56SPEAKER_00:No, and actually people always think we met on Frozen as well, because I was working on Frozen when he was there. He was like, Did you meet on Frozen? I'm like, no, we actually met on Instagram. I actually didn't know who he was. Okay, trust it. Considering I feel like people know who Jason is. Yeah, yeah. Um yeah, we met on Instagram when I was away doing raw rock you in like 2019, I think.

2:21SPEAKER_01:Wow, very interesting, okay. Well, this isn't about him, so No, it's not. This is about you. Uh so tell me about you and where you grew up, uh how you got into the business. Um yeah. How'd you start?

2:33SPEAKER_00:I do know what I think I started when I was when I was young, I I always wanted to dance or I liked dancing. I think it I must be like, I mean, I always danced as a kid, but just like playing around. And then I wanted to go to dance school and my parents started taking me, but there was just like wasn't much in my town. I'm from a really small town called Gainesborough.

2:55SPEAKER_02:Okay.

2:55SPEAKER_00:In Lincolnshire. There's just not much there. So I kind of went to one and then sort of stopped when I was in like primary school, I think. Yeah. And then when I was going to secondary school, there was only two like in my town. Yeah. And my mum went to the one that I wanted to go to. Right. And it had performing arts at it. Okay. And I was like, I really want to go, I want to do performing arts, I want to dance. She was like, You're not going there, it's awful.

3:21SPEAKER_00:And I was like, please, because my older brother was at the other one. Okay. So she wanted me to go there. Yeah. So I was looked after at least. Um anyway, I won the argument and I got to go to the one I wanted to go to.

3:34SPEAKER_01:Are you glad that you went there?

3:35SPEAKER_00:100%. Yeah. I don't think I would be who I am today if I hadn't gone there.

3:39SPEAKER_01:Okay.

3:40SPEAKER_00:Because I started dancing straight away. Yeah. And they did they put on a show every single year, every single Christmas. They had like a musical. Like we did my first year was fame. Then we did I don't even know I don't even know what it was. I think we did a hairspray one year. Oh, this is a long time ago. Yeah. And some other shows. And yeah. But my dance teacher there, I just I just fell in love with it. And her and she lived in a little village called Grinley.

4:10SPEAKER_00:Okay. And I had a dance like class that she would teach there.

4:13SPEAKER_02:Yeah.

4:14SPEAKER_00:So I started going to that. And I was like loving my life. I was like, this is this is like what I want to do. Okay. Um, and it just sort of snowballed from there, really. I was like, I wanted to do more of it, like do more different styles and more classes. And then I went to another dance school in Redford, which is like a 20-minute drive from my town.

4:36SPEAKER_02:Okay.

4:37SPEAKER_00:Where um another boy in my year had started going. And that was it. That was it. Then I was in it. I was like, okay. This is what I want to do.

4:47SPEAKER_01:And when you graduated, what was the first thing you went into?

4:50SPEAKER_00:From when I graduated from um from college.

4:54SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, from college.

4:55SPEAKER_00:Um I went straight into luckily, I went straight into We O Rock Hill on Royal Caribbean.

5:00SPEAKER_01:Okay.

5:00SPEAKER_00:Which I hadn't planned to do it. So yeah, yeah. I know the the lifestyle very well. Yeah. I hadn't planned to do it. It hadn't been something that I was like working towards. Yeah. Because I feel like at the time ships had a really bad rep. I don't know, I don't know why. I also didn't know much about them myself. Like I hadn't done much research. And I wasn't like I didn't go to college wanting to do musicals.

5:24SPEAKER_02:Yeah.

5:25SPEAKER_00:Like I just wanted to dance. Yeah. But then as it happened, I just I did like fall in love with musical theatre, but also that just happened to be one of the jobs I auditioned for.

5:35SPEAKER_02:Yeah.

5:36SPEAKER_00:And it worked out. And I was like, absolutely, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it. Also, one of my dreams at the time was to go to New York, and the ship was out of New York, so I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna do it. Yeah. And I don't regret it at all.

5:49SPEAKER_01:I absolutely like I always say I feel like it's ship is a brilliant first job. And I'm so grateful that I did that.

5:56SPEAKER_00:It really is, and I feel like some people like some people wish they'd experienced it or like done it sooner. Yeah, yeah. Like I'm so glad I did it. Like I've made friends for life on because I ended up doing that contract twice.

6:09SPEAKER_02:Yeah.

6:09SPEAKER_00:Um, a year in between. Again, I wasn't I didn't plan to go back, it just happened. Yeah. But I'm so glad I did because I've got like some of my best friends from those contracts. Yeah. But I do feel like being on a ship is so like up and down. Yeah. Oh, 100%.

6:25SPEAKER_01:Like you either love it or you hate it.

6:30SPEAKER_00:That's literally what I say all the time. Like it you can have like incredible days, and you can also have some of your worst days.

6:36SPEAKER_01:The highs, the biggest highs and lowest days for sure.

6:39SPEAKER_00:But then when you're away from it, I feel like you just look at the highs.

6:41SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like oh my god, and you go back and like, oh am I remembering this correctly? You forget all the other things that you that's not good, like the food and the cabin situations, and just for like within the cast, it's so because you can't get away from anybody, and like you live with the people that you work with, people you eat with, and it's just it's weird. A little bit of drama feels like the biggest thing in the world.

7:04SPEAKER_00:It's such a weird thing, and like the second time I went back, I felt like I had to remind myself that you can leave.

7:12SPEAKER_02:Yeah, do you know what I mean?

7:13SPEAKER_00:Like there's a get out, like you don't have to stay. Because I think I was worried about feeling trapped, trapped, yeah. And I just had to keep reminding myself, like, okay, yes, you're on a job, and yes, you're like in in this enclosed space, but if you really wanted to leave, you can you could leave. Yeah, so I had to remind myself of that, but it was fine. My second contract was a blast. I absolutely loved it.

7:33SPEAKER_01:I think because I knew because you knew what you're going into, you knew what to expect. 100%, yeah. And all these years later, do you still prefer do you prefer musical theatre to just dance in general, or is it kind of just they're both equal?

7:45SPEAKER_00:I actually don't know. Yeah. I think it's pretty equal. I think I've been really lucky with what I've done that that I've enjoyed both sides equally. Yeah. I think obviously musical gives you a bit more like stability, which is nice, but at the same time it's more taxing like on your body and mentally, and it's exhausting. But I think the spontaneity of doing more commercial work, more dance work is so exciting. Yeah. Like one day you're, you know, doing like a regular job or whatever you're doing to like make income.

8:23SPEAKER_00:The next minute you're going somewhere else and you're like, oh god, I'm on this job and touring with big artists. Yeah, like it's an incredible job, and you're like, oh my god. So I feel like that's the exciting part about it. Also, the money's usually good.

8:34SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's true. That's true.

8:35SPEAKER_00:Yeah.

8:36SPEAKER_01:Um, well, tell me about your you've got a side hustle, right?

8:39SPEAKER_00:Yes, I do.

8:40SPEAKER_01:Tell me about it. Tell me all about it.

8:41SPEAKER_00:Well, I I I I feel like I mean it is a side hustle because I do it in parallel with performing, but at the same time, it is also like half of who I am, I feel. Yeah. Um, so before I went to Erdang, yeah, I well, I didn't get into the full-time course when I auditioned at 16. And I'd always done hair growing up. Yeah. I'd done my mum's hair, my sister. My sister my mum was like, you should apply for this apprenticeship in town at this hair salon. I was like, oh yeah, maybe I will.

9:11SPEAKER_00:So I did. So I trained as a hairdresser, qualified, and then I auditioned for college again. Yeah. And then I went to London. But I was already qualified at this point.

9:21SPEAKER_02:Yes, yeah, yeah.

9:22SPEAKER_00:I was like, great, okay. So I was doing people's hair at college and bits and bobs like to get by. And then it wasn't until lockdown that somebody had put a message on Instagram or somewhere somebody had seen it and sent me it, and then maybe Jay should have mentioned it. And there was somebody looking for like a wig assistant at Tina in town. And I was like, well, I'll apply. Like I can do hair. I know that most of the wigs on that show are real hair.

9:48SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I was like, I'm gonna apply. Yeah. So I did it and started doing wig work, basically. But funny enough, before that on Rocky, you know, they always have like a wig supervisor or a wardrobe supervisor. I did the wigs for the show because it made sense. Yeah. I don't have any other duties, or I might as well have something else to do while I'm on board. So after that, I was like, oh, this is fun. And I already've worked with wigs here and there.

10:19SPEAKER_00:So I started doing that for Tina and loved it.

10:22SPEAKER_02:Yeah.

10:23SPEAKER_00:And I also was like so grateful because I was like, I've got no money coming in. Yeah. Like no one was working. I was like, what am I gonna do? Yeah. You know, I applied for a job in Sainsbury's and I just couldn't bring myself to go to the interview. I just can't do it. And I applaud anybody that did do it, but I was like sat in the interview room going, I can't do this. I cannot do this. Um, so I was so grateful that I had another skill. Yeah, still within the industry and what you're familiar with, yeah.

10:52SPEAKER_00:Something that I enjoyed and also something that I was learning from as well, because I'm technically not a trained wig professional. Like, I guess I am, but I'm not like I'm trained in hair, and they go obviously go alongside each other, but like I didn't actually go and get a qualification in wigs, do you know what I mean? So I just haven't I now have experience, but yeah, I just I learned so much on that on that job, and then I've just done different jobs from them from then on.

11:21SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like I went on to Frozen afterwards, which was great, and I loved working there. The theatre was amazing, the show was like so much fun, yeah. And it was great because I come in at 5 30 and leave at like 9 15. Yeah, because I was a wig dep, so like I didn't have to do all the extra hours.

11:41SPEAKER_01:Do you have your own kind of business as well with it that you do other people that people can pay to get the to for your services?

11:49SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I've been trying to set it up over the years, and I think because I've been here and there and everywhere, and like think as I'm still performing, yeah, it didn't feel like I could prioritize setting that up or like putting my energy and money into it. Yeah. So I have been doing it, but it's like slow here and there. And um, I actually cut wigs for a company that um do a lot of drag stuff. So I cut their wigs, they send them to me, send them back.

12:17SPEAKER_00:I'm actually doing two wigs for them over the next couple of weeks, like styling them for the Brighton Pride. Yeah. So I do have a page and it is like slowly building up because I kind of want it to be like hair in general, like hair wigs, like obviously I I did my friend's wedding hair like a couple of years ago and the bridesmaids, so I'm trying to set that up, but it's just like well, yeah.

12:38SPEAKER_01:Tell tell people where they can find it.

12:41SPEAKER_00:Find it on what is it called on Instagram by hair jack. Oh my god, what is it called? No. Hair by Jack Dargan. That's it. Okay, I think that's it. Oh my gosh.

12:54SPEAKER_01:No, check it out.

12:55SPEAKER_00:I've only been using it recently for the past couple of weeks. That's all right.

12:58SPEAKER_01:Okay, we're gonna move on to draw distracts. I'm sure you've uh heard of it. We're gonna try and draw a scenario whilst I ask you really deep, difficult questions.

13:07SPEAKER_00:Okay, okay. A construction site.

13:10SPEAKER_01:Oof, right.

13:11SPEAKER_00:Okay. That's that's tough. Okay, yeah, yeah. Okay. A construction site. That that's very broad, actually.

13:18SPEAKER_01:That is, yeah, yeah, you can do whatever you want, your imagination.

13:21SPEAKER_00:Okay. Ready? Yeah, I'll try. Okay.

13:25SPEAKER_01:First question. What experience made you question everything you thought you knew?

13:29unknown:Oh.

13:31SPEAKER_01:You can interpret how you.

13:32SPEAKER_00:I think actually, just like when I moved away to college, I think that was like a big moment in my life. I was like, oh my god, what am what what am I doing? Like, I don't think I realised how young I was either.

13:45SPEAKER_01:Like Did you go at 16?

13:48SPEAKER_00:18. But even then, I I just felt really young, and from I think being from a small town as well, I was like, this is so like crazy. Like I knew everyone in my town, and then I'd moved to London, and I'm going to college eight um, seven days a week or whatever, five days a week, doing hours and hours of dancing and not knowing anybody. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I think I need a new pen.

14:12SPEAKER_01:Yeah, me too. It's just gonna be a slow process of trying. And then I get some new ones.

14:19SPEAKER_00:Um, but I think that really like shook me and was like, oh, I don't know anything about life. How do I how do I survive? How do I budget? How do I cook food? How do I um do everything? Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, obviously, like I knew how to survive, but it was just like a big shock to the system, I think, of being like, and you're on your own, good luck. Yeah.

14:44SPEAKER_01:Literally is that, isn't it?

14:46SPEAKER_00:Yeah.

14:46SPEAKER_01:What is something you're afraid people will discover about you?

14:52SPEAKER_00:Um, maybe that I'm not as confident as I appear to be.

14:57SPEAKER_01:Okay.

14:58SPEAKER_00:I think. Which now everyone knows.

15:01SPEAKER_01:Well that's what it's for. It's like, you know, by yourself.

15:05SPEAKER_00:I think maybe I come off I don't know, maybe I do. I think people have said it before in the past that I come off like with with confidence, but actually I don't feel that way all the time, and inside a lot of the time my head's like going alert, alert, alert. Yeah, yeah. But I think that that's probably maybe the case for many people.

15:24SPEAKER_01:Yeah, of course it is. I mean, especially in an industry where it's we're kind of told to almost present in a in a way that is more confident than even naturally would than you would need to in a regular job because you're around so many big personalities. Um so to almost be seen or to feel like you're relevant. You kind of need to being quiet or timid or whatever it is doesn't it's made to you kind of made to feel like you're not not that you don't belong, but you're gonna get left behind a little bit.

16:02SPEAKER_01:Do you know what I mean? Because there's so many people that are like for various reasons just a lot um a lot bigger personalities. 100%. That was a really long way winded way to put it. But you know what I mean.

16:13SPEAKER_00:100% and I think I think being I think I had that experience a lot at college. I think that was when I realized that I needed to build my confidence or at least fake it from the outside because my first and second year I was absolutely petrified of what people thought, what you know, how I was perceived. Just so many things. I felt like I was so in my head, yeah, that I I almost wish like I could have redone my second year because it just felt like I didn't know myself or I didn't have any confidence.

16:52SPEAKER_00:I just was like constantly, you know, n not wanting to be in the class, like terrified what people were saying, thinking, yeah, feeling like I couldn't dance, all these things, like it was just crazy. And it wasn't until my third year that I felt like I started to get a bit more of it back, or started to realise that or at least fake it a little bit. Yeah, you know. Yeah.

17:16SPEAKER_01:What criticism has stayed with you the longest?

17:19SPEAKER_00:You're not a singer. I think that that has stuck with me a lot from being in college, I think they put me they put you into tracks, yeah, and they put me on the dance track, which is fine. But then you're like, well, then you're made to just feel like a dancer, which is not a bad thing.

17:44SPEAKER_01:But But if you want to be doing something as well.

17:46SPEAKER_00:But also, like, I thought isn't the point to be well rounded? Isn't the point to be to go and get better at the things that you're not maybe as strong at? Or is not your like strong point. And I felt like that wasn't the case. It was like, oh, we're just gonna push you into the dance world because that's what you're good at. Yeah, and it was the same for the singers, I guess. They got pushed into the singing world and that their dance was not pushed.

18:10SPEAKER_00:Yeah. But shouldn't you want to push the other stuff?

18:12SPEAKER_01:That's exactly the thing that I did. I was in musical theatre for my first year, and in the second year you had the option to change. Um, and I wanted to change to dance, and everyone's like, What are you doing? You you can only sing. Like, and I was like, that's the point. I'm like, I'm not good at dance, I want to be. So then so I changed, and now I'm much better at dancing than I'm singing.

18:32SPEAKER_00:Do you know what I mean? But I feel like that's that was the point in it, right? It's just like that's why we go to training.

18:36SPEAKER_01:Improve on the things that you you're not good at, yeah, that you're already good at. Do you know what I mean?

18:41SPEAKER_00:100%.

18:41SPEAKER_01:How's your pen doing?

18:43SPEAKER_00:Not very good.

18:44SPEAKER_01:Mine are terrible as well. You know what? We'll leave we'll leave the the drawing because it's the pens are actually terrible. Um I'm not getting any further than this. Mine's like rubbing out the work that I am doing. Yeah, mine's also gonna say the best I can do is a sky and and um like a truck thing. Right. That's good, but like, and and maybe some scaffolding, but I couldn't really see it.

19:05SPEAKER_00:Okay, but for someone that said they want to take art, this is not good. I did some gravel and I tried to do like a like a like a tower with some smoke, but it it's just not I mean it looks it looks good anyway.

19:19SPEAKER_01:I can see where you're going with it. Thank you. Um I'll I'll need to get some better pens for next time, but I'll just ask you these questions anyway. So might be easier because you won't have to focus on the drawing anyway. Alright. Uh what does vulnerability mean to you?

19:30SPEAKER_00:I think it means not being afraid to just not being afraid to show who you are. Yeah. Not being afraid to show your opinion and also not being afraid to to listen, I think. Like I do feel that's one thing that I've learned over the years is it it's hard to be vulnerable. Because I feel like I was or a lot of performers it can be very just like shut off and it's just like that mode all the time.

20:03SPEAKER_02:Yeah.

20:03SPEAKER_00:But it's and it's hard to just like open up. But I do feel that it's important, and I think that if you can just if you can be yourself, that's the biggest vulnerability. Yeah.

20:14SPEAKER_01:I think it's not being afraid of not being everybody's cup of tea. 100%. If because I've I've lived my life quite a lot trying to be like, what if this person doesn't like me? Or like what if I you know get on the wrong side of them or just like get under their skin or they don't they just don't like what if I don't act in the right way that they appreciate or they vibe off, but well then they then you don't. Who cares? They're not they're not your person to be around anyway.

20:37SPEAKER_01:And it's sitting trying to sit comfortably in the of that I'm gonna be me no matter what, and if people don't vibe with that, then it is what it is. Do you know what I mean? Like it's not even my slightly my business. Do you know what I mean? And that's really hard to get out of, especially when you go through college where you you essentially want to be like want to be popular in a in an industry that's very popularity, what you look like, all this kind of thing.

20:59SPEAKER_00:And I think that will always creep back up as well. Like, I don't think maybe someone has, but I don't think that anyone's cracked it. No. Do you know what I mean? I think it will always creep back up.

21:09SPEAKER_01:There'll always be those days that you go, oh, but what if they're saying this, or what if they think that, or what if yeah, you know But there's still very few people that if you're like, oh yeah, they really don't like you, that I wouldn't then go think about, why don't they like me? Do you know what I mean? I'd still think about I wouldn't just go, ah, that might oh well. Do you know what I mean? May maybe if I literally don't care about them at all, or like I've never had a conversation with them, then it wouldn't take any mind.

21:31SPEAKER_01:But like even in the back, I'd be like, Why don't they like me? What did I do? Do you know what I mean? It's really hard to just let people have their own opinions. And there's people that I'm not that keen on, and that like but it doesn't affect them, and it doesn't my like dislike or like not having time for them w won't doesn't make any difference to their life and doesn't make any di that's not like I think about it often. I really don't, like, do you know what I mean?

21:54SPEAKER_01:So why should it aff affect me the same way? Do you know what I mean?

21:57SPEAKER_00:I think it's especially the case of like in a in the audition situation when you haven't got the job or you've been so close or something and then you start to go or maybe they don't like me or like what is it that they what is it that they didn't like about me yeah and that's what you go to immediately yeah but maybe it wasn't something they didn't like about you. Do you know what I mean? Maybe it wasn't that maybe that wasn't the reason.

22:17SPEAKER_01:Or maybe the thing that they didn't like about you is something you cannot change like you're like two inches smaller than you need to be.

22:23SPEAKER_00:But you don't fit the costume. That's yeah literally like oh you're but meanwhile you're at home going you're not the gender we're looking for like you can't do anything about those right yeah yeah mad isn't it um when was the last time you cried and why oh gosh I think I cried yesterday I cry all the time I love it I love a good cry um so important I yeah 100% I agree I cried yesterday but it's quite sad actually it's alright I mean if you're happy to share it yeah I cried yesterday basically one of the dogs at Doggy Daycare passed away and it was a sausage dog so for anyone that doesn't know obviously we have a sausage dog me and Jason and we had two we lost one two uh two years ago so I think it was a real big reminder it was like yeah trauma like hit us both in the gut it was just horrendous also we'd both taken care of this puppy as well like yeah we knew him so it was just really sad and yeah we just both of us just like just gut wrenching mess yeah yeah I mean I think that that's a beautiful that's a beautiful thing to cry over I'm a very big advocate for practicing crying and I feel like most people are like what what does that mean?

23:37SPEAKER_01:You just cry when you're when you're sad and I'm like yeah it's not forcing crying but I every so often like a couple times a week I'll put myself in an environment that will encourage it. So like maybe I'll watch a sad film or I'll listen to music that I know affects me. So I'm a very empathetic person. Yeah even if I just see something slightly not even sad but wholesome on a real on Instagram doesn't matter where I am trained I will cry yeah and every time I do it it I don't I'm not embarrassed I'm not self-conscious I'm like I'm it's almost like practicing me being in touch with my emotions.

24:08SPEAKER_01:And every time I'm doing it I'm like I'm uh I'm feeling and I'm proud of that. Yeah because it get makes it easier every time I then feel my emotions another time to not bottle it up and it's like even if I'm not crying about this even if there's something else I haven't dealt with it's a way by proxy to help get that emotion out that I haven't dealt with um so yeah always proud of like let I never like try and keep it in if I feel like I'm gonna cry watching a film or something I will encourage it out.

24:35SPEAKER_01:Yeah keep the practice.

24:37SPEAKER_00:I'm just saying because it's it's like a muscle if you don't if you don't use it you don't sometimes it's that thing of like something could set you off whatever it is that you're initially upset about but there's been something backed up that you've not let out yet that ends up coming out through that cry.

24:53SPEAKER_01:Do you know what I mean like so many stresses of like whatever's happened the over the past couple of weeks I think came out in the past couple of days because I was already upset about this dog and I was already crying so then it was like just tears just coming out but then afterwards you're like oh I think I really needed that yeah but I'm so that person as well I remember I remember at school there being like guys would go around bragging because we're like I haven't cried in two years like and at that time you're like oh maybe I'm just like weak maybe I why I cried like a few months ago and now I'm like I'm proud that I cry like every week if not most days is something yeah even if it's just something little like a real video just one little tear just something like one of those sad songs that's attached to one of those videos and I'm done for yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's great I saw I I read a what is it I was sat in a theater I was watching ostentatious it's a really funny show and it was in the interval and I was literally just sat in the stalls in my seat people are around me and I was having a scroll on Instagram and I saw a post of a woman whose dad had passed away but she's carried on messaging his phone number I saw it with um with like updates from her life to kind of feel like connected to him even though obviously the number wasn't used anymore.

26:09SPEAKER_01:And then it was like five years later um and turns out a her dad's number had been given to like this other man who had been receiving her messages um and he had a daughter that passed away um and so when she was like updating her dad on on her life this guy was receiving the messages and like found it to be like the best part of his day because it was like almost his surrogate daughter in a way messaging him and he messaged finally messaged back saying I didn't want to because I didn't want it to be awkward but um I think your dad would be so proud of you and your message is the best part of my day and I was like sobbing in the theatre just reading loads of people around me in a comedy setting and I'm just like so beautiful though.

26:51SPEAKER_01:Oh it's incredible yeah all right next question what are you currently working on within yourself?

26:57SPEAKER_00:How to stay calm. Okay I um I'm known for being quite a stress person like stressful person. Yeah. Or I get stressed quite easily um and I try to remain calm but it doesn't always work out. Okay. And Jason will always be like you can't you need to stop stressing. I think he's quite a calm person as well he is or he appears calm on the outside I don't know how he does it. Yeah. Because I feel like he's always pretty calm. Yeah. It's rare that I see him stressed but I stress all the time about things I can't control.

27:34SPEAKER_00:And I think it just comes from my family. Like I think a lot of my family have lived like stressful situations or stressful lives that I think it's just like I felt like it's ingrained in me. Yeah and you know like this industry's hard life is tough like when you're trying to like be self-employed and do things and you're worrying about like where your next income's coming from and things like that. So a lot of the time I feel like I'm just like living in a state of stress.

28:02SPEAKER_01:Yeah so I've really over the past couple of years try to think more rationally rationally rationally logically and finally what do you hope people remember about you when you're gone that I'm a good time.

28:22SPEAKER_00:I have a good time I think that I feel like I get along really well with most people and I would like to think that people would just say oh Jack was a good time.

28:33SPEAKER_01:Yeah that's a good good answer. Alright as I just wanted to get your take on a discussion theme of the episode and I had to write down a bit extra on this one because I couldn't I didn't quite know where I was going with it. But the theme was the role of emotional vulnerability in the industry and I put in brackets being vulnerable to play characters but staying strong enough and resilient enough to withstand rejection because it very much is a it can be quite a petty industry and to play these characters that have got a lot of emotional depth because you're really trying to empathise with these characters you have to have enough emotional awareness and sensitivity to be able to to open yourself and put yourself in these characters shoes and all the emotions that they're dealing with around everybody in the space but also remain not like closed off but like resilient enough to not let all like the petty dramas and and things that maybe people other people in other industries wouldn't have to deal with that theatre makes very like in your face.

29:31SPEAKER_01:Yeah.

29:31SPEAKER_00:Um how do you think is best to balance those two things I think you have it depends on like I think it ha you have to have good people around you as well. I think if your environment is good then that allows you to feel more in like a stable place I guess to ha to to be able to do those to do those things or be or like get into that headspace. Do you know what I mean? I think if you're not if you're not in a good group or a or a good cast or a supportive environment then I don't think you're able to give yourself over to that.

30:11SPEAKER_00:Yeah. It's what I've experienced I think. So I would say I think as if it's important to have or to feel safe in that in doing it. Otherwise I don't think that you can really go there or just or it's not yeah truthful enough or do you know what I mean?

30:29SPEAKER_01:It's such a unique industry because there's no other kind of job that you would need to be that emotionally open with people you've just met and to trust people that you don't know you know in that way and you do have to open your up yourself up like that until it kind of forces that level of vulnerability. Because you can go to work in any other job and literally just be like hi how you doing and get on with your job. If you do that in this industry it's very like oh what's wrong with them like the why are they not as open yeah um and there's a lot of heightened emotions within the space for the how tired you get from the the material you're working with.

31:08SPEAKER_01:And so it is a difficult uh thing to balance if you don't have the right people around you.

31:13SPEAKER_00:100% and I do think that that makes a huge difference then is is the cast because I I can I I can only relate it really to like last year being away doing Milan Rouge like I was so lucky with my cast and everyone was so supportive and everyone would say you know you'd walk in the building everyone is saying hello everyone wants to make sure everyone's okay everyone's asking how you are and genuinely wants to know and like obviously the show is not that deep like it's not Shakespeare but like there is moments of like vulnerability in the show and moments where you are together as a cast and have to having to be in that sort of emotional state.

31:54SPEAKER_00:Yeah but I never once felt like judged or or not supported. Do you know what I mean? It always felt like everyone was there together and everyone was just sort of like holding the emotion or it didn't feel like somebody was just gonna like laugh or somebody was just going to like take you out of it or not support you. Do you know what I mean? And I feel like that is really important. I think as long as you have like a really great supportive cast or team or whatever it is that you're doing I think then 100%.

32:30SPEAKER_00:Yeah.

32:30SPEAKER_01:Well we're gonna move on to some quick fire questions. Oh gosh I can't think very fast. Well these are it's literally A or B, it's really easy. Okay. So hopefully this isn't gonna be too much for you. Um okay action or romance? Ooh action mountains or ocean? Ocean history or science? Science optimist or realist realist phone or laptop phone driver or passenger princess? Passenger princess trust or loyalty loyalty wealth or happiness? Happiness fame or privacy privacy cats or dogs dogs hero or villain villain singing or dancing dancing chess or poker poker.

33:13SPEAKER_01:Morning or evening comedy or horror? Comedy nice uh just before we go do you have any like embarrassing stories? Worst audition anything like that that you'd like to share? Yeah you've thought about this. That's it.

33:27SPEAKER_00:I did see it and I thought should I share this because it is so embarrassing. You don't have to like say what it was for or any other names involved but I would definitely like to hear it's something that happened in the show last year that is one of the one of the moments on stage where I just thought I want the ground to swallow me whole yeah yeah and I don't ever want to be seen again. And I I thought about sharing the video at one point because there's a video because the director filmed the show.

33:54SPEAKER_00:Oh you might have to send me that this morning so I thought about sharing the video and I thought I actually can't because it's so embarrassing. You've seen the show haven't you?

34:02SPEAKER_01:Yes yeah I actually saw it I've seen it twice but I saw it last week in the before as well.

34:05SPEAKER_00:Okay so you know when um when Sateen and the Duke are um in the boulevard section and they're all in their gorgeous like suits the like the purple so it's near the like partway through second acts oh second act okay just before they sing Only Girl in the world yes and then it comes on the curtain drops and they're all like shadows behind it. Yes yeah and then it comes up and there's they sing. Well I was on for a track for the very first time um a dance track so I was about to come on for only girl after this scene.

34:37SPEAKER_00:Yeah and he comes on from stage right and there's another team of boys from stage left but in the show in well at least for us stage right is gonna come on a little bit earlier because they have to get to stage left. Right okay fine no worries then I get there and I think oh I don't know the cue because it's in Dutch. Yeah oh okay the script's in Dutch but the music's in English so but I also because with the way the curtain was in the wing I couldn't see the screen so I couldn't see the conductor either so I was just like oh god I'm gonna have to try and figure this out and I always just stood there and I was thinking okay and the boys behind me was like yeah it's not yet it's not yet I was like okay fine fine but the the music sounds the same the whole way through that section it goes boom boom boom boom bum boom like something like that.

35:25SPEAKER_00:That sounds like Crazy Frog but it wasn't crazy frog. Um and I was like okay count it in count it in and I was like it's now yeah all of a sudden I just thought it's now I need to go yeah so I started walking across the stage like on your ready for the next number and it's like a big entrance that we just walk straight across in a line dum dum like marching and it wasn't the time and I was completely alone I was alone and the boys were trying to grab me back.

35:55SPEAKER_00:I can hear them going no no no no but it was too late. You know what it is I'd committed and I you just walked straight off the other side is that what you did I walked all the way across all the way across and at this point everyone on stage is silent because Tatina just said something and they all look to judge her. So they had all gone to look at her just walk and then all of a sudden they see me everyone's eyes is like this watching me walk across in a completely different costume.

36:31SPEAKER_00:All the way across I'm just thinking just commit just commit just trying to figure out when the next then the music starts for the actual truck the actual number it's not even like you could go off and run back around to start it was too late. Like so I got to the other side the music kicked in I literally hit um stage left pivoted turned around started walking again back into the number somehow got back into the position I needed to be in because it like it crosses the yeah you do and I was thinking at that point I was thinking what track am I doing who am I am I going to stage left stage right what's the point anymore I should just I should just left the other side and this should just done a a cut.

37:07SPEAKER_00:Yeah it was honestly it was awful that you just see that the video is so funny.

37:14SPEAKER_01:To be fair it doesn't sound like the worst thing that could have ever happened like you didn't fall on stage yeah you got the wrong timing and it might have been awkward but like it's not like a big like you didn't your top didn't fall down all that kind of stuff.

37:26SPEAKER_00:Yeah that's happened but it did feel like it was I was on there for about 10 minutes and I thought this is this is awful and everyone was obviously time moves so slowly when you know you're doing it wrong as well you're like and everyone thought it was hilarious and at the time I was like I will laugh about this but right now I just need to get through the rest of the show. Now it's hilarious and I can watch the video back and it is brilliant but that is so good.

37:51SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna you're gonna have to show me that thank you for coming on today I really appreciate you taking the time out and sharing some of your stuff with us um it's been really lovely. Thank you and guys feel free to check out the show feel the show the the podcast um check out Jack and all the stuff that he's doing at the moment as well um your Instagram I'll probably link it in in the description anyway um but yeah thanks for listening go follow on all the socials and we'll catch you in the next one see you guys