What would Carl Rogers think about MI?

1 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:29,000 Chris might be willing. 2 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:34,000 Maybe you could just get us started. I'm sure we all have plenty to say once the wheels get turning. 3 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:44,000 I tell you what Chris, since Why don't I try with motivational interviewing? And you try with Klein centered counseling. 4 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:51,000 But we just pause between them in case any of the others want to add anything to what I say or you know and then to what do you say? 5 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:52,000 Yep. 6 00:05:52,000 --> 00:06:05,000 How's that? Okay. So motivational interviewing is a style of conversation. 7 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,000 In which you 8 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:14,000 Adopt an attitude. 9 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:23,000 Of curiosity. Driven by compassion and acceptance of this person in front of you or group. 10 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:32,000 In which you Clarify a direction of travel in the conversation or what we call a focus. 11 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:44,000 And then proceed on the assumption that most of the wisdom is inside. And therefore, evoke from them. 12 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:53,000 How they feel about this change. Acutely aware that They often feel ambivalent. 13 00:06:53,000 --> 00:07:06,000 And then if and when they seem ready to talk about doing something about it. You might join them in a process of Planning that change. 14 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:15,000 And offering up information and advice. If that's something that they would appreciate. 15 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:20,000 How's that? Okay, I tried. 16 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,000 Okay. 17 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:27,000 I like your description of Li. 18 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,000 I'm not sure if it covers all of what other people call am I? 19 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:38,000 So what if I tried this? If I try, try to boil it all the way down. 20 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:47,000 I. Allows us to sidestep or defuse the cycle of pressure and resistance. 21 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:56,000 When talking with people who are ambivalent about change. And helps them resolve their own ambivalence in the direction of change. 22 00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:04,000 Through focusing on and drawing out their own values, goals, and strengths. 23 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:10,000 Love it. 24 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:16,000 That's as succinct as I've been able to get about what I actually think MI is. 25 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,000 I love that. 26 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:28,000 You're also pointing to That whole issue of pressure and bypassing that issued pressure. 27 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,000 Okay. 28 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:38,000 I wonder if we might. I don't know if you want to quickly do base versions of these or if we might elaborate, expand this a little bit. 29 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,000 Stick with MI for a little bit. 30 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:42,000 I don't mind. I'm wondering. 31 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,000 Love to hear your thoughts, Chris. 32 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:49,000 So yeah, so I have a couple of questions. 33 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:53,000 One is we say in the direction of change. 34 00:08:53,000 --> 00:09:05,000 But somehow, what changes has to be established? And. My sense is different people have different senses of how that comes about. 35 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:12,000 So that's one question. And. 36 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Well, we'll stick with that one for the moment. 37 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:23,000 If it's in the direction of change. How is change defined? What direction is that? 38 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:30,000 And I could respond with one word. Which is focusing. 39 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:35,000 Which is an activity or a task. 40 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:36,000 Okay. 41 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:47,000 Where you try and reach agreement with the person about what that. Changes. 42 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:58,000 I think, I think. Kind of historically. Motivational interviewing would focus on what the person wants to change. 43 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:03,000 How they want to do it, when they want to do it, and even if they want to do it. 44 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:11,000 And that's where and. Supporting autonomy has always been a big part of motivational interviewing for me. 45 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,000 And the very appealing part of it. 46 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:20,000 So in some ways, motivational interviewing to me is, is 47 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:27,000 Providing an opportunity. For the person. 48 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,000 To 49 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:38,000 Just decide what it is they wanted. Change or have different in their life. 50 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:45,000 And come up with their own arguments and reasons to do that. Based on what's important to them. 51 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:56,000 Not me. Coming in. And trying to install these arguments and reasons. On why they should change. 52 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,000 Because of what's important to me. 53 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:00,000 They they awesome. 54 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:07,000 Or the feeling the need. Or feeling the need that it's my job to fix somebody. 55 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:15,000 Absolutely. And there are these ethical Challenges in the process of focusing. 56 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:28,000 That can't. Often can't be avoided because I might sit with somebody in feel. This is probably a worthy direction of travel. 57 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:37,000 I can't honestly say that It's always about only what they think. Is an appropriate direction of travel. 58 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:55,000 There can sometimes be potential for disagreement and the skill of focusing. Is precisely the ability to form. A good connection and engagement with somebody such that you can raise a possible direction of travel. 59 00:11:55,000 --> 00:12:12,000 Eventually agree. Okay, and once and then if there is that sense of agreement then you can proceed with mining their wisdom so to speak about it. 60 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:13,000 Okay. 61 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,000 So the 62 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:25,000 I love that and I think we're already. Bordering on the topic. Of contrast. Between MI and client senator person centered. 63 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:34,000 Counseling because I think the process you just just described Steve. Is quite different from the way a person centered counselor. 64 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:45,000 Would conceptualize. Their way of starting and joining and moving forward with with a new client. 65 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:54,000 And doesn't that invite us now to try and capture what blind centered counseling is? 66 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,000 Let me just make a mark about the one part of that I want to come back to a little bit later then. 67 00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,000 Yeah. 68 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:20,000 Cause what I'm hearing you say is Focusing involves developing a collaborative partnership. To move toward a particular in a particular direction, either toward a goal or toward an outcome or just forward movement in a direction even if there's not an end goal to find. 69 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:31,000 And it's an active partnership of both people then working together and you said some of the skill is negotiating finding what is this thing that we both feel we can work together. 70 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,000 Toward. Is that correct? Okay. 71 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:44,000 And it sometimes starts off. A little bit vague. But there's agreement and then it can get a little bit more specific as the conversation unfolds. 72 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:51,000 Black and white, we have a goal to work towards. It's often an unfolding like a flower opening. 73 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,000 If you like. 74 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,000 Yeah. 75 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,000 But I would also underline that word negotiating. Because again, I think as we're thinking about. 76 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:19,000 The. The. Overlaps and contrasts between MI. And person centered counseling and, purely, sort of method, I think that word negotiation really is a, I would see it as a dividing line. 77 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,000 As a just as distinguish between the 2 methods. 78 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,000 That's very helpful. A fella came. 79 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,000 I think it's one of the most distinguishments for sure. 80 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,000 Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah. 81 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:31,000 Hey, how is he the only one? But A, Yeah, yeah. 82 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:42,000 I mean, someone got referred to me today with a specific problem and walked in with that specific problem. And in the focusing process. 83 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,000 Hmm. 84 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:50,000 We adjusted what that if she was and talked about something completely different and I think more fundamental but it was negotiated. 85 00:14:50,000 --> 00:15:03,000 It was negotiated with sincerity or authenticity, compassion. Kindness. But it was completely different to the reason why he walked in and why he was referred. 86 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,000 Sure. 87 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:13,000 So it's a continuum. There's a sticking point. I'm gonna name what I think the sticking point I'm gonna name what I think the sticking point is and then we can decide whether we want to hold that one for later. 88 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:14,000 Okay. 89 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,000 The sticking point being. 90 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:29,000 Programs having a goal. Existing before people have even walked in the door, right? Other people walking before a given client walks in the door. 91 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:35,000 And a kind of sticky point being. 92 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:45,000 What if we see something that seems beneficial for the client and they're not really so up to focusing on that now. 93 00:15:45,000 --> 00:16:01,000 And I, I don't know this is Stephen any of your work with MI, but I hear people talk about am I sometimes as I use MI when I want to try to convince the client to do something that I think they should do or we think they should do or is better for them. 94 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:09,000 And maybe there's still a negotiation of then do we do am I but the impulse of direction is coming in. 95 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,000 That's what 96 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,000 Okay. 97 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,000 Yeah. 98 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:24,000 Will swing back. So Alan, you're gonna really have to help me with this or join anybody else, but so client center counseling. 99 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:30,000 Classic client center counseling. First of all, I think was different things at different points, right? 100 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:41,000 So it had a Under Carl Rogers had about a 50 to a 40 year development period, 30 to 40 year development period and it unfolded in time. 101 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:50,000 So we can maybe talk about some of the differences over time, but the essence of it was As I understand it. 102 00:16:50,000 --> 00:17:06,000 Each person is. A master of themselves or of their own life. And when we meet people, they're not yet able to fully use that power. 103 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:17,000 To be themselves fully, deeply. And congruently. Because along the way. They have met with conditional regard, things that. 104 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:33,000 They've been shamed for scolded for, etc, that created a sense of internal tension and, a process of people kind of Having an outward face and an inward experience that are always congruent with each other. 105 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:42,000 Saying things that they think others want to hear. For you know forbidding themselves from saying things that they, you know. 106 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:51,000 Maybe have gotten trouble to with before. In the process of client center counts as I understand it. 107 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,000 Is to meet somebody. 108 00:17:55,000 --> 00:18:06,000 Human human and create a set of conditions in which A process can unfold of that person moving towards creator, genuineness, congruence. 109 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:16,000 And what Rogers thought was a fully functioning person or what other people talked about as being actualized. 110 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,000 The, I'll stop with that. I'm sure you can do much better. So I just. 111 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:26,000 So could I if I could just add one? No, no, no, not at all Chris. I think I agree with everything you're saying. 112 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:35,000 I would just add a nuance, which is maybe a point of emphasis, which is I think and I think this is again an important. 113 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:54,000 Key for distinguishing. Person centered and counseling and MI is Rogers was very explicit that that Lack of genuineness was not Only about, you know, I'm going to sort of be careful about what I say or how I express myself. 114 00:18:54,000 --> 00:19:07,000 With with intention. That what his view was is that people lost the ability to even be aware of. There what he would have thought is their genuine strivings. 115 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:17,000 That the processes of denial and distortion, which are defenses, in the classical sense of a classical meaning. 116 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:30,000 You know, psychodynamic sense of things that happen without our full awareness. Who's workings of which we are not fully aware. 117 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:44,000 Such that we often believe. We are genuinely the person we present ourselves as. And only the Malays and anxiety. 118 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:53,000 And dysfunction and broad sort of sense of stagnation and unhappiness with our life. 119 00:19:53,000 --> 00:20:06,000 Reveals. That those distortions are that that who I. Believe myself to be. As well as who I present myself as is not. 120 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:28,000 Who I genuinely am. What I genuinely want. And I think it's that disjunction, the incongruence in Rogers term, you know, the technical term that that from his perspective leads to suffering and brings people. 121 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:39,000 Typically seeking therapy and seeking help because without knowing why things are going so wrong for them. 122 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,000 Yes, so I just want to let you know my computer locked up as I'm also scrolling through the transcript. 123 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:50,000 But the essence, if I if I'm catching this right, Alan is Yeah, the incongruence is both. 124 00:20:50,000 --> 00:21:08,000 I always say that word. Strangely, but anyway, from inside to outside there is a difference, but also within that people get, I don't know that Rogers use the term compartmentalization, but that there are different parts of Self that people have access to. 125 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:15,000 And don't depend, you know, based on these. I don't even know the language interjected kind of values or beliefs or Okay. 126 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:20,000 Yeah, yeah, exactly. Conceived values as, 127 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:33,000 So, so then as I understand it, Rogers believe that. If you simply set up a condition and a relationship and this is one of the places we're different over the course of his career. 128 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:51,000 In which a person feels accepted, valued. Heard and understood. Those walls within and walls between will begin to disintegrate the facade will will go away, etc, and the person will. 129 00:21:51,000 --> 00:22:01,000 Genuinely inhabit their being. And be more of their true self. So again, different terms over time, but true self. 130 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:14,000 And that then out of that they will make choices. Readily that align with who they are and what their values are without needing us to do the work with them. 131 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,000 That's very good. 132 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,000 Or for them. 133 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:19,000 Or do the work for them. 134 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:20,000 That's true. 135 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:30,000 Yes. And so as I started thinking about this a few days ago, I was thinking, well, you know, it's the non directive versus all the different words MI has had. 136 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:40,000 Directive semi directive, directional with goal orientation. You know, the words keep kind of shifting, I think, trying to find what's the best frame of that. 137 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:49,000 And it kind of, my sense after reflecting a little bit was I don't really think that's accurate that I think 138 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:58,000 Rogers work is non-directive about choices, you know, what people would do. But he seems very directional to me on how people should be. 139 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:06,000 He has a very clear concept of what a fully functioning person is and a number of attributes and processes that go along with that. 140 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:17,000 And in his work is That's the direction things are moving. It's not a behavioral thing, but who people are, how people are, I guess, more than who. 141 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:34,000 And MI seems to flip that around to me, which is MI is. Really not interested in kinda how you are as a person who, you know, Trying to even look at are there problems with that it kind of accepts at face value what somebody presents is their view of their life. 142 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:42,000 And so it's non directive on that part, but more directional on moving toward a goal in helping people define their goals. 143 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,000 I don't know if that made any sense. But. 144 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:49,000 Can I raise a 145 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:56,000 We're very interested to. Hey, what Ellen and Chris think about it because 146 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:09,000 For me the 2 of you were the inspirations for this. So I've never had the opportunity of actually asking you, which is very arrogant really, but We made a shift. 147 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:19,000 Originally, MI was focused on addiction behaviour change. Then it was focused on behavior change. 148 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:28,000 And Now change, not necessarily behavior change. 149 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:38,000 Doesn't that bring? Am I in much closer alignment with client centered counselling? 150 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,000 Yeah. 151 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:50,000 And even growth now, now tipping that towards growth. In my review of the new version of the MI book. 152 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,000 Yeah. 153 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,000 I didn't see a lot of development of that, but the door has been open to consider that as a future direction. 154 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:53,000 I think that's a really, yeah, I think the, you know, the additional of that, of that. 155 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,000 There was 156 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:09,000 Of the word growth to the title and sort of the expansion of the purview of in that way was certainly something that I appreciated and was glad to see. 157 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:17,000 And I, I think at the same time, if I were to ask myself, when, when am I apt? 158 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:26,000 To to do am I with some one? And when would I be apt to do something? Else, which would be. 159 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:34,000 Would not be pure person centered counseling, but a much more. Depth-oriented exploratory kind of therapy. 160 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:45,000 The answer, the simple answer would probably be If there's something that this person feels stuck in. 161 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:56,000 Wants help in changing or is considering changing if there is a target if there is a focus even if they come in. 162 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:13,000 We redefine it and I really appreciated Steve your opening example of the way a focus can become be renegotiated that what the person thinks is where they're stuck is not is often not where they're actually stuck. 163 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:26,000 And as we talk together with them, they begin to recognize or take. They thought they were looking for help with this, but what's really going on is something like I'm struggling with this. 164 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:45,000 But even that I in those scenarios is where I think I'm thinking of MI. And if someone's coming to me with much broader kinds of Again, this sort of a sense of malaise about their life, a sense of I don't know. 165 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:51,000 I don't even begin to know what I need to change. I don't even like the idea of change. 166 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:59,000 Of thinking about changing something that already feels artificial to me. I just feel like I'm at a loss. 167 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:12,000 I'm I'm not doing MI. I'm thinking in that much more, in a much more sort of person centered counseling, exploratory sort of approach. 168 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:20,000 And I think that is something more like. What we usually think of is growth in the classical sense of. 169 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:31,000 I don't have a particular goal. I just want my life to be better. And I don't know why my life is not good. 170 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:43,000 But it's not and I'm I'm lost. So I still think there is a bit of a you know, sort of a natural. 171 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:56,000 Shifting back and forth between those those. 2 sorts of They'rerapeutic focuses. 172 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,000 Yeah, it, oh, see where you talking. 173 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,000 Go. 174 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:09,000 Yeah, so I wanna talk to both pieces of Steve's first question was, am I becoming more like? 175 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:23,000 Client centered therapy over time or is it opening up into similar territory? Maybe is a better way to put it And I think it is, you know, I think that from the first edition of the book that was preparing people to change a addictive behavior. 176 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,000 I don't know the exact subtitle to helping people grow and change is certainly both a broadening and a deepening of the focus. 177 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:43,000 MI. And in that way, I think the As MI broadens. You know, there's more it's broadening in a territory that classic clients that are therapy. 178 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:58,000 Has been at home in. If, at the same time, I have another part of me another kind of itchy feeling that in some ways MI is moving away from client. 179 00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,000 Okay. 180 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:13,000 Centered therapy over time. So I could think of a couple of examples of this, but one is one is simply like the I know we're in insider kind of stuff a little bit, but in the second edition of the on my book there were sections on when I'm when MI is non-directed. 181 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:20,000 And in the third edition and after. It was non directive was no longer a part of MI. 182 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:39,000 That at some point am I model in compass both. Periods of directional focus and periods of non-directional exploring and it seems to me that that piece has been taken out in favor of this what I call the gear shift model. 183 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,000 What? 184 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:46,000 I don't know if that's what it's called or that's just how it sat in my head that When when we're in gear, gear shift model like when when we're in neutral. 185 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:54,000 It's non directive, and then we put it in gear to move forward towards 186 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:55,000 Yeah. 187 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:56,000 I was like with neutrality versus being in gear. That's that's I like that. 188 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,000 Yeah. Good. Yeah. 189 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,000 And I don't know, I, you know, I don't want to say either any is better. 190 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:13,000 I just think there are different. Where of focusing and I personally think you could you could do really depth-oriented MI and you just rethink how you define change. 191 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:28,000 It doesn't, you know, it isn't just a behavioral goal or even necessarily a change in identity or a change in, you know. 192 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,000 Yeah. 193 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:39,000 Relationship or something like that, but just to change can be defined as growing into myself or moving towards piece or like the last decade and a half of a lot of therapies been around acceptance and I think you could say acceptance is a kind of change. 194 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:48,000 I wanted to find my change goal as becoming more accepting. With my life as it is. And I've worked out with a number of people with chronic diseases where that's really the focus. 195 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:59,000 There really isn't a change to make other than to stop fighting. You know, with acceptance of how things are now. 196 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:06,000 Move to that, be at peace, and then live a life that is more what I want. 197 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,000 I think. 198 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,000 Oh, I gotta hear that, please. 199 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:21,000 Okay. I could ask you the maddest question of the evening. Yeah, and then it will be quite interesting to sort of circle around to the question, which is the title of the seminar. 200 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:35,000 What is the What is the difference between clients centered counselling? And existential therapy. 201 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,000 I'm definitely looking, Allen on that one. You. 202 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,000 Yeah. 203 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,000 Oh, that's a that's a whole other Yeah So I think exist, yeah, try to be really brief. 204 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:57,000 Existential therapy really does start. From a certain set of premises about existence and about and and assumes that you know, when you, when you sort of get to the heart of things. 205 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:27,000 It, it, the existential realities of death and our knowledge that our lives will end. Finitude and and limitation. 206 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:45,000 Is about here are the causes of suffering. And here are the solution. Here are the ways to help people. 207 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,000 Okay. 208 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:59,000 You know, transmit that. Suffering, of course, like Freud, the existentialists start from the assumption that you can the best you can do with Freud said you want to transform neurotic suffering. 209 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,000 Neurotic, pathology into everyday suffering. He thought that was about as good as you could get. 210 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:12,000 I think the existentialists are not quite that primitive, pessimistic, but I think there is a kind of pessimism and existentialism. 211 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:17,000 Nothing. 212 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,000 Okay. 213 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:24,000 Not present at all in Rogers much more. hopeful I think and positive. Vision of, of human being. 214 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:36,000 One of the connecting threads. To existential psychotherapy. Client centered therapy and motivational interview and therapy has to do with personal values. 215 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:43,000 Has to do has to do with values and how you make meaning of your life. Based on your values. 216 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:52,000 That are going to inform the choices that you make. Which are incredibly important to be able to take responsibility for. 217 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:58,000 And so you're looking at the, you know, how do I make meaning in my life? Not what is the meaning of life. 218 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:08,000 As Franco would say, that's too abstract. You know, but, but if I look at the meaning of my life, then I can start to break it down in the way you were talking, Alan. 219 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:22,000 Start looking at what it is that I'm struggling with and you know and all of that and that's where I think the sort of humanistic existential connection came because that was during the the the human growth movement. 220 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:30,000 And you know like minds just kind of Get associated together. Even though you said, Alan, there's nuances. 221 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,000 And significant differences. Between exited. 222 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:34,000 Okay. 223 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:46,000 I think your I think your point about responsibility is an important one Joel that in existential therapy that, There is a sense of. 224 00:34:46,000 --> 00:35:04,000 An effort that we all tempted to try to deny. The car own responsibility for our own choices because because they are so fraught and and and we, so often make mistakes and don't know we've made them until after. 225 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:16,000 We've acted, and so the goal of helping people take responsibility for their choices except the responsibility for their own lives. 226 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:23,000 And then see that as a result that they also have a kind of agency. To make choices. 227 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,000 Okay. 228 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,000 Dark side as well as a positive side. 229 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:30,000 Okay, okay, look, I'm sorry, I took a software. 230 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,000 That's all right. That's all right. 231 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,000 You got us off on that tangent. Let's bring it back. Let's bring it back. 232 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:34,000 Get back. 233 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:44,000 Can I say something about, back on, on our focus, which that which came up as, as I was listening, to Chris. 234 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:57,000 Earlier I think and in this this conversation about growth and MI and growth. I think 235 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:05,000 What you call the gear shift model Chris I've I've I've been referring to as the standard model. 236 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:32,000 Of the which really is focused very much on cultivating change talk and you know in the context of an accepting a relationship and you know in the context of an accepting relationship a relationship of safety where and having a direction and having directionality, knowing where you're going and and facilitating that and an avoidance of Cultivating Sustain Talk. 237 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:43,000 And, caution about what would have been seen as the dangers. Of drawing out sustained talk as having, to keep people stuck. 238 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:49,000 And there is this other model that has been proposed and it's kind of popped up here and there. 239 00:36:49,000 --> 00:37:03,000 It was, laid out by, in the MI and psychological problems books. Which he and in his book on resolving ambivalence that he calls the conflict resolution. 240 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:15,000 Model of MI. That Henny Westra and her research has. Has really drawn from and using MI with people with anxiety disorders. 241 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:24,000 That makes the argument that exploring both sides of the ambivalence. Can be a crucial part of. 242 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:38,000 Effective motivational interviewing. I think the conflict resolution model. You know, if you ask what would Rogers think of MI, I think he would like the conflict resolution. 243 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:46,000 Model or understanding of how MI works much better than what I've referred to as the standard model. 244 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:59,000 With the idea of If you give people the opportunity to explore their ambivalence in particular ways and I think they I think it's the in particular ways that's what that M. 245 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:12,000 That's Embi's contribution and and advance over. Person centered counseling. But that exploring ambivalence in that way. 246 00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:20,000 Provides the kind of trust in the person's natural tendency towards growth towards being able to find their own way. 247 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:32,000 And at the same time helps. Resolve and ambivalence more more effectively than other kinds of conversation. 248 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:42,000 Nice. So what you've done is you've You've pinpointed an area for develop for real development and which I'm sure will all agree. 249 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:51,000 The best guidelines will emerge inductively from people's experience of actual Conversations and ever process research on these conversations. 250 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:58,000 I think this I feel this just personal I mean it's it's been too much premature closure. 251 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:06,000 On how to explore. Ambivalence. And I was with somebody today, you and I just let him go. 252 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:17,000 And he just, I mean the sustained talk was like. An incredible shower. And I waited until he'd finished and summarized it for him and I said, what next? 253 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,000 Did I freeze? 254 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:27,000 And the conversation moved off in a positive direction. So I think there's lots to explore there, but. 255 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:36,000 What would Rogers. Feel about am I now. 256 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:42,000 Somebody threads that I keep on this to come back to you, but. 257 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:50,000 So it depends to me a little bit if we're taking Rogers from a time capsule from when he was alive to now and when. 258 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:59,000 You know, for, you know, if he were living human being yet, he'd have 35 more years of Seeing the world develop and seeing helping systems develop. 259 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,000 And I think in some ways. 260 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:16,000 Looking these in looking am I and classic person center therapy in the context of their times and of the Focus and of the goals and the way services were delivered and organized. 261 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:27,000 Is different from just kind of talking about them as abstract things. And so I, you know, my sense with Rogers is He was a radical. 262 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:36,000 From the beginning. I mean, he He started psychotherapy research after being told only psychiatrists could do therapy psychologists don't know how to do it. 263 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,000 And he's like, well, I'll show you basically, and you know, started that. 264 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:59,000 And I, you know, it seemed to me he He kept unfolding over the course of his life to You know a model where it's about I don't know if empowering people in to use MI language, but is about more egalitarianism and less hierarchy, less people. 265 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:09,000 Standing outside of others and being experts on them. And I think Rogers would love that about, am I, and love that MI has helped advance that particularly. 266 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:23,000 In medical settings, criminal justice settings, places where the hierarchies traditionally were very strong. The the people at the top had the power for decision making. 267 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:30,000 As a psychiatrist classically did with people with mental illnesses and obviously is the case in the criminal justice system. 268 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:44,000 I think Rogers would really like that. That MI has been among You know, in medical, their shared decision making, there's other, you know, other models that have tried to do a similar thing but the idea bringing people. 269 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:54,000 Allowing people to have more of their own power and incorporating their voice. And whatever is going on, I think you would really like. 270 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:55,000 And then 271 00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:05,000 And Gary, Suffolk points out, I think very nicely. And, in a comment to us that, Bill and Steve were also radicals. 272 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:13,000 In in your time. I mean what what was being proposed as a way of working with people with addictions. 273 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:28,000 The idea that, you know, people with addictions could be treated as human beings. And and that confronting and so on and was was not only not not the way to work but actually harmful. 274 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:38,000 You know in their in your quiet ways this was also a radical stance. And I and I think I like very much the idea of that. 275 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:49,000 That sort of confluence between Rogers radicalism. And the radicalism that MI really represented when it was first articulated. 276 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:58,000 In the contrast of these models that were very different. We're not about empowering that we're not about. 277 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,000 You know, evoking people's voices. 278 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:14,000 I got an email this afternoon from Bill saying I've got a very serious regret about what we put in this fourth edition of the book, which is Just one way of describing in my it's not the only way. 279 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:28,000 And guess what it was? It, I, I, I, I see, Johannes is from Germany is here, apparently in Germany, MI has been defined as a form of CBT. 280 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:39,000 And within the reimbursement system you can't. Kit, am I? Unless it's defined as a form of CBT and this has been brought to Bill's attention. 281 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:58,000 And he and I in the last 3 days have been exchanging. A document about the origins and essence of MI as being client centered and now this often he wrote saying I just wish when we wrote this latest book that we hadn't emphasized that more. 282 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:04,000 Interesting. 283 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:05,000 So. 284 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:13,000 I was thinking about in my head, If we, maybe we ought to do this, get some audio of Rogers or. 285 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:23,000 You know, an expert in person center counseling encoding. You know, cause there'd be loads of reflections that below, really a low and softening sustained talk. 286 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:41,000 Pro, an almost neutral and cultivating change talk if not low. Hi in empathy and partnership would probably be you know because because of the stamps of the person centered therapist they're not trying to create a partnership where to engage the person. 287 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:49,000 And they're thinking about how they're going to do this. Is not an active process. I think, I think person centered therapy would not. 288 00:44:49,000 --> 00:45:00,000 By the current metrics we have in assessing MI proficiency wouldn't come close. Sure being motivational interviewing. 289 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:05,000 Well, I think it depends on, yeah, it depends on which variables you focus on. So we did this. We did study. 290 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,000 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I just, I just meant the standard. 291 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:20,000 We didn't publish it. Probably should but anyway looking at a number of approaches. By video demonstrations. 292 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:21,000 Yeah. 293 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,000 Rogers and Miller came out really quite close in their style, certainly the reflection to question ratio, the biggest differences. 294 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:38,000 Or amount of speaking time. Bill was higher than Rogers. So it was more involved, which I think is what we were talking about, not so much a companion as much as a collaborative partner. 295 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:47,000 There was, more focus on change talk. Not surprisingly, when we coded that and there was a future versus present focus, which I think also helps. 296 00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:55,000 Differentiate. Am I from client centered, classic client center therapy? 297 00:45:55,000 --> 00:46:06,000 But I mean, there's an overlap is. Sort of the, the spirit of MI meets the 6 necessary and sufficient. 298 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,000 Just through a blank. 299 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:11,000 Conditions. 300 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:22,000 Conditions. Thank you, Chris. Conditions, right? And, and, and But all of that is how you are with the person and what you're trying to create. 301 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:27,000 Or the person to be able to do some self exploration. 302 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:34,000 Yeah, I think, you know, just on the context piece, that we live in a different world where the amount of time. 303 00:46:34,000 --> 00:47:01,000 Is less, we're pressed for more efficiency for more. Demonstrable outcomes. In more structured settings that are often you know specific to a problem or a change or a way of organizing work in individuals couples groups etc. then when Rogers was practicing when it was kind of 304 00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:09,000 Figured out as you go along. You know, to pick up with the rest of the Rogers threat just so we don't lose that. 305 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:16,000 What would you think of MI? I think he would really like The empirical. Basis of MI. 306 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:23,000 How much research is done. I mean, he was very committed to that. And I think at the same time, he would. 307 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:31,000 Try to find out where this decry is the word that comes to mind. How much the focus is on. 308 00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:45,000 Outcomes studies and how little focus there is on process and the interpersonal processes. Because I think one of the big overlaps of these 2 approaches is that interpersonal process element. 309 00:47:45,000 --> 00:48:00,000 And it at least it seems to me he would look at this maybe it's just my own projection and say why aren't we studying what's happening between people why are we studying Like Allen's thesis dissertation, I forget what it was years ago. 310 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:15,000 How did the clients perceive an interaction? What did they take away? What stood out for them? You know, the thing I think I got most from MMI is just that sense of really tuning into whoever I'm talking to in the moment. 311 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:25,000 And riding the, you know, riding the ride with them and not being up my head deciding what do I need to do to try to influence them but helping find it together. 312 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:31,000 And it just seems like we. There isn't funding for that or there is an interest. I don't know. 313 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:39,000 We have like 2,000 randomized controlled outcome trials or something. Few dozen several dozen maybe process studies. 314 00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:52,000 And I would, I completely agree with you on that, Chris. And I guess I, don't want to seem like I'm doing a commercial, but, for any Westra and and her her research and her work. 315 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:58,000 Because she is one of the few. Who has alongside her outcome studies? Have also had an ongoing program at her and her colleagues at York University. 316 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:14,000 On process research specifically looking at the client experience of MI. And on what's happening when MI is. 317 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:30,000 Is happening and I it's not a coincidence because of those who know York University is the center of experience, you know, less Greenberg and experiential therapy, which is part of the what has been called one of the tribes of the person centered. 318 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:38,000 World and I think they have that. Culture there to do exactly the kind of exploration that you were just referring to. 319 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,000 Chris, that that we need so much more of. 320 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:53,000 And I think that us in this discussion as well as a lot of the people. I can recognize as participants would agree. 321 00:49:53,000 --> 00:50:00,000 That this has been a almost like a wave that overcame the field that we feel was unwise. 322 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:17,000 And If you ask me what bit of writing I ever did that I'm most happy with, it was a paper called Enthusiasm Quick fixes and premature control trials, which wrote as a commentary in 2,000 or something after the first meta-analysis. 323 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:28,000 And I felt then this was what and it's our fault, I feel. Because we had too narrower focus on the purpose of MI is to change behavior. 324 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:40,000 And of course, we then reaped. The punishment, not the reward of pursuit of control trial evidence. 325 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,000 So I think we agree that don't we? I mean. 326 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:49,000 It, yeah, I don't know how much the. Is on your shoulders. I mean, that's the zeitgeist. 327 00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:55,000 That's the times that we've just I think are starting to move out of but we moving through at a minimum. 328 00:50:55,000 --> 00:51:11,000 Of you know all of the attention going to horse race kind of studies or just demonstrations of you know, can this do something but without really knowing why or how. 329 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:22,000 Means we're really lacking and it means as you continue to develop a model, you don't have the data that would really benefit you in continuing to develop the MI model. 330 00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,000 But because it's not there's not enough research going on. 331 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:41,000 I do think that we sometimes Don't we get a little too narrow? In our focus and don't pay enough attention to related research that is going on that almost sort of adjacent. 332 00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:51,000 To what would be in my process research. So Robert Elliott's interpersonal process recall research that he talked about it. 333 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:56,000 PC last year, and he has, you know, he's been doing that for decades. 334 00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:04,000 I came across the study very recently that used a completely different language. To talk about ambivalence markers. 335 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:22,000 It was in the CBT context and and and looking at the process of what happens in a therapy session where client either expresses a new, what we would call change talk says something like I really feel like I want to be more assertive is that it was the example they gave. 336 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:31,000 I'm really tired of just quieting my own boys. And then in some cases would say, but then I'm going to feel really foolish if I do that. 337 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:41,000 And they call that an ambivalence marker. And, and the, the, the other, I can't forget the other turn they used, but for the first kind of language they called something like a. 338 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:56,000 Movement marker like a you know innovation marker or something like that and what they found fascinatingly was that And, it's markers meaning sustained talk coming immediately after change talk. 339 00:52:56,000 --> 00:53:00,000 Is associated with worse outcomes. 340 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:07,000 So is that the oscillation that, you know, Bill and Steve were writing about, you know, so decades ago about what you hear. 341 00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:16,000 When people are ambivalent oscillating between the 2, that that genuinely does seem to be. 342 00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:25,000 Destructive, you know, sort of keeps people stuck. Versus when they are articulate. 343 00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:33,000 You know, a moment of innovation and don't immediately follow it with the other side. 344 00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:37,000 Where that's associated with much better outcomes than a variety of ways in the next session, lower symptoms in the next session and things like that. 345 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:49,000 So I think there is some research out there that we could be drawing on. That can help inform our understanding of what we. 346 00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:54,000 What we are doing. That I think, you know, go back to what would Rogers think. 347 00:53:54,000 --> 00:54:02,000 I think he, he would say, anyone who's doing any of this kind of process research, you know, this is all valuable. 348 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:15,000 It's not, we, we figured out a way to do it, you know, the Q sword and the different methods that he came up with, but certainly that's not the You know, we need lots of ways of understanding what is the clients experience. 349 00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:23,000 What actually what's happening in the session and how does that then relate to what happens after the session. 350 00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:34,000 The the other thing that struck me. Kind of as a divergence is. And I shared this in our. 351 00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:44,000 Email exchange is that Person centered therapy and a brief intervention. Right, people were going to therapy twice a week. 352 00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:52,000 For 2040, 60 sessions. 353 00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:53,000 Yeah, yeah. 354 00:54:53,000 --> 00:55:00,000 Well, but you know, I decided to interrupt, Joel, but you have to remember, you know, talking about context in the context of times of 20 to 40 session therapy was a brief intervention right because the contrast was with psychoanalysis and you know twice a week or more for years. 355 00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:20,000 So Rogers as it worked was actually known as being much briefer, but what we would now look at it and say, 20 to 40 sessions is almost interminable versus you know the 3 to 5 session interventions that we're doing now. 356 00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:21,000 So if. 357 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,000 Sure, sure. Sure. I don't, I don't know you could do, well, maybe you could. 358 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:32,000 I've never tried. I'd be interested to see like person-centered therapy done in 15 min. 359 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:46,000 You know, I don't think given where. Where Rogers was going with the approach of what what where they were aiming for in terms of becoming a fully functioning human, it would take a while. 360 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:47,000 Okay. 361 00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:54,000 But that's a very Yeah, they're it's a very non 362 00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:55,000 One of the difference. 363 00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,000 There's a focus there, but it's not specific. Where, SMI is a very specific. 364 00:55:58,000 --> 00:55:59,000 Go ahead, Chris. 365 00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:08,000 Yeah, one of the in our context again is that I know and I know M is broader than psychotherapy, but therapy and counseling. 366 00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:14,000 Used to be intact, conceived of as an intact journey. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end. 367 00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:27,000 Or we're much more in an episodic care. Era now or come in and let's deal with this part of it you're gonna go have your life you may come back to me, you may go somebody else when you want to kind of take the next step. 368 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:36,000 As opposed to there's a start a middle and an end. And so I do think, you know, MI provides the tools to be much more efficient. 369 00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:42,000 By narrowing the focus to what's most important to the person seeking help or being sent for help right now. 370 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:43,000 Yep. 371 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:52,000 And that that can then open up or unfold. Either by extending our time together or by, you know, over multiple episodes. 372 00:56:52,000 --> 00:57:02,000 And I think this is where another place where am I. Is kind of moved away from what Rogers was moving toward, which is around techniques. 373 00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:25,000 So or the other way around. You know, Rogers that really got to the point where he's so dislike the cop even the idea of techniques, the idea of a reflection as a technique or an open question is a technique just were anathema to him toward the end of his life and am I come in and really embraced these as saying you know. 374 00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:42,000 You could, you know, the way I hear am I is that you it may you may be sufficient to have conditions where you're sitting with somebody and being part-to-heart with them, but actually if you use these techniques you can move things along quicker to an end that they desire and that that is better. 375 00:57:42,000 --> 00:58:01,000 And I think, you know, It, it would seem. Absurd to me if somebody was wanting to Quick smoking or came in and said, I just can't go on drinking like this, you know, to do person Santa therapy with them. 376 00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:02,000 It's not what it's designed for. 377 00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:07,000 It's not what it's designed for and I think we have pretty good evidence that it doesn't work. 378 00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:14,000 When you've got, you know, especially the things that MI was originally designed for habit change. 379 00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:21,000 Essentially, whether you call think of drinking and drug use or or smoking or health behavior, other kinds of health behavior changes. 380 00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:32,000 I think in, in those kinds of areas, the efficiency, the focus. The the the the specification of technique. 381 00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:53,000 Just results in a much more effective way of helping people. And I say that as somebody who, you know, still very much loves person centered and exploratory therapies, but I think the great advantage of the advance of MI is that we have different tools for different kinds of problems. 382 00:58:53,000 --> 00:59:03,000 Whereas before it was it was really the old you know you've got a hammer so everything looks like a nail sort of approach. 383 00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:12,000 I was just looking at Gary's question. Around the therapist factors such as empathy, acceptance and congruence and how there's overlap. 384 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:18,000 And that's, and that's something that. I'm glad you brought that up, Gary, because that That's stands out to me. 385 00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:25,000 So when you read about what Rogers would talk about about on becoming a client centered therapist. It was a real process. 386 00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:33,000 Where in order to do this you had to kind of put yourself through. Through it to find your own internal congruence. 387 00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:43,000 So then you could create the space. To to work with the person and you you're you wouldn't get and your stuff wouldn't get meddled up with their stuff. 388 00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:54,000 But particularly in the way he understood. What actually being empathic was and getting into the Clients frame of reference and they're phenomenological world. 389 00:59:54,000 --> 01:00:01,000 And you're there as a visitor, you're not there as a participant. Or there to to move things around. 390 01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:08,000 And I go out and teach motivational interviewing in 2 days of people that don't have counseling backgrounds. 391 01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:13,000 And so, where I think we're taking, we're talking about 2 different things around things like. 392 01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:21,000 Genuineness and acceptance. And even expressing of empathy. From a from a regerian perspective. 393 01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:28,000 To to a bill and Steve perspective. They're they're the same thing, but there's a little more. 394 01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:33,000 Emphasis put on on the helpers. Personal development. 395 01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:41,000 Well, I think what's really cool, one of the really cool things about MI is that you can do a workshop, teach people. 396 01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:47,000 And hopefully some follow ups, some coaching, some opportunity for integrating what you what they've learned. 397 01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:56,000 And set them loose. On you know in doing the work and they can be more helpful than they would have been prior. 398 01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,000 Yeah. 399 01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:09,000 To that. I, at the same time I would say, you know, when I've done, you know, in the coaching in in supervision. 400 01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:18,000 And guidance that I've done for for MI practitioners over the past, you know, decade or 2. 401 01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:28,000 Where, you know, that's a starting point, right? And if you want to be really good at am I. 402 01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:36,000 I think what it takes to be really good at MI. It begins to converge with what you would just describing, Joel. 403 01:01:36,000 --> 01:02:02,000 Which is developing your. Capacity for deeper level of empathy. A deeper, a deeper ability. To to maintain a pricing Gays the term that Rogers used alternatively to unconditional positive regard that I that I love best because I think It's that it's that gaze that. 404 01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:08,000 We look at when we're looking at someone we love and we're seeing through the eyes of love. 405 01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:17,000 Which is what I think fundamentally unconditional positive regard is and what I think. An affirming presence really is and I think it's what we need to do in MI as well. 406 01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:31,000 And to be able to do that. And to be genuinely have the genuine level of equanimity of acceptance that the person may choose not to do the things that you might think would be in their best interest. 407 01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:38,000 And that you can be fully okay with that. Even if you believe in your heart, they might have. 408 01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:46,000 Done better had they made a different choice. I think it takes a long time to be able to do MI in that way, but when you develop yourself in that way. 409 01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:53,000 You can be much more powerful as an MI practitioner. More effective and move faster, interestingly. 410 01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:54,000 And 411 01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,000 You become more efficient as well as more impactful. 412 01:02:56,000 --> 01:03:11,000 Yeah, I found it incredibly helpful a couple of years ago when You highlighted the surprising element. And you talked about in a way offering up rather than handing down. 413 01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:18,000 And I've noticed with schoolteachers and sports coaches, you know, it's in my last 10 years. 414 01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:23,000 How incredibly valuable is that distinction. 415 01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:33,000 In the delivery of an affirmation or in the offering of information and advice that's you know, I wanted to thank you for that. 416 01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:37,000 And, and I just found it so helpful. 417 01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:38,000 And crouchers. 418 01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:52,000 You know, you know, one of the, one of the things. That I think. Wonder about is is how the phrase person centered has become so big. 419 01:03:52,000 --> 01:04:02,000 Right, we have person centered services. We have person centered that. And and they're they're not even talking about Rajarian psychotherapy or or anything about it. 420 01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:11,000 They're just talking about we listen to our patients or clients. And we think about them versus, you know, It's something very specific. 421 01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:16,000 And, and I think for a lot of people and maybe, maybe it's just because I'm getting. 422 01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:23,000 I'm getting older, a lot of that is getting lost. In terms of what actually is, what it mean. 423 01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:28,000 From a regerian perspective. To be person centered. Kind of like strength based. Right? 424 01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:35,000 And it's, it's really changed a lot from its inception back in the 70, Si believe. 425 01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:51,000 In terms of what it is. And as Steve, you just said, you know, motivational interviewing gets spread pretty thin sometimes as to what exactly it is. 426 01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:57,000 That's what I was just wondering, what are you thinking about? Walk around the person centered world. 427 01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:58,000 Maybe you'd be happy. 428 01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:09,000 There's certainly You know, I think to some degree the history of Almost anything that has a starting point is it starts narrow and then it broadens. 429 01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:17,000 And certainly the person centered tribes as they call themselves Allen referred to earlier. Or strike me as very different from one another. 430 01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:24,000 I think Rogers would like some of those better than others, some are closer to what he did and some are really very different interpretations. 431 01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:33,000 But I think the thing he would support and that I hope we all support is that. We stay open and we keep changing and we keep trying to find. 432 01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:34,000 Absolutely. 433 01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:47,000 Something that captures it a little bit better. You know, I We still use the terms that Rogers assured toward the end, right? 434 01:05:47,000 --> 01:06:02,000 The reflection, open question. Thinking about. Using these as techniques teaching them as techniques. But hopefully, we, you know, am I captures that sense that he ended up with of We're, how do you put it? 435 01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:08,000 We're verbalizing provisional understandings or we're testing our perceptions with people. 436 01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:23,000 As we do this, we're not. Reflecting something strictly in a mechanical strategic way to try to influence the person's, where they're at in their ambivalence, but we're really trying to understand where they're coming from. 437 01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:29,000 Even if we're sometimes putting things into words that they haven't yet put into words. That we're not crossing that line. 438 01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:39,000 I think Allen's. Just share this, we're not crossing that line into interpretation where we're trying to plant an idea of how they should see things. 439 01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:46,000 We're just trying to reflect something that is their experience, whether they've come to that verbalization yet or not. 440 01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:47,000 Yeah, and I think that what you just described Chris is something that I think we've all seen. 441 01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:59,000 I'm assuming we've all had it's had seen some trainees, a new learning of MI struggle with. 442 01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:06,000 This sense of I don't want to be putting words into somebody else's mouth and my being intrusive if I go beyond. 443 01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:21,000 The things they say. But I think this is very much a place of confluence between Rogers and what he described and and what we how we think in MI the language we use is a little bit different. 444 01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:38,000 That idea you you referenced the the construct of the internal frame of reference, Joel, this idea that Our goal is to imagine ourselves into the world and the experience of the other person as if we were sort of walking around within it. 445 01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:53,000 And What Rogers thought was that part of what that allows you to do is to see and articulate things of which the person is only partially aware. 446 01:07:53,000 --> 01:08:05,000 Is aware of but is avoiding articulating. For the reasons we talked about earlier because it because conditions are worth I mitigate against it. 447 01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:21,000 And that we can sometimes express things. That the client will recognize. As theirs. That they have not been able to find the words for or haven't quite formulated yet. 448 01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:32,000 And I think that depth of empathy. Is powerful in MI and in person-centered counseling. 449 01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:33,000 Now look, Steve. 450 01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:46,000 Yeah, and I, I have a guess about where Steve's gonna go with this, but I'm gonna wait and see if I'm going to go with this, but I'm gonna wait and see if I'm right. 451 01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:50,000 I confronted Bill about this issue. 452 01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:57,000 How could I clarify what it might be a point of difference between MI and Kline centered counseling this? 453 01:08:57,000 --> 01:09:06,000 That certainly in the form of therapy that you are describing, Alan. There's great integrity and coherence. 454 01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:15,000 To how you describe the place of impactic listening. And empathy. 455 01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:23,000 Then if you fast forward into the hurried world of am I in healthcare in all sorts of environments. 456 01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:29,000 What if and I just leave MI out of it? I'll come back to, in, in a moment. 457 01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:50,000 A young doctor. Last couple of months came to me and said, look. There's no way in the context in which I'm working that I can really enter the world of all these people who dying in front of me and I'm telling them they've got poor prognosis and I'm dealing with distressed weeping relatives. 458 01:09:50,000 --> 01:10:02,000 I would burn out. I can't cope like that and can you help me and the way We, the way I feel we resolve this, if I could return to MI. 459 01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:16,000 Is more or less to distinguish between cognitive and emotional empathy. And then I checked it out with bull who says, No, you don't have to enter into someone's world in order to empathize with them. 460 01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:23,000 Is basically stating what I suppose you could call cognitive empathy. 461 01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:30,000 So this. This doctor found it extremely useful and has written up this little paper which I'm helping her write and stuff like that. 462 01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:45,000 And she's described a scenario in which she's capable of Cognitively empathizing with these people, but keeping her distance so to speak so that she can manage other aspects of her the work that she has to do. 463 01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:55,000 And is this perhaps a point of difference because And I'm not saying Bill Miller's view is the only view or characterizes MI. 464 01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:58,000 I'm just saying in his view. 465 01:10:58,000 --> 01:11:07,000 You don't need to enter a person's world in order to empathize with them. I've noticed inside myself. 466 01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:16,000 That I feel protected by that awareness. I'm worried about getting burnt and I have been burnt out 2030 years ago. 467 01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:41,000 And I think this was one of the reasons. So. I'm worried about not in a form of therapy, but I'm worried outside of therapy of this concept of empathy being People worshiping on the altar of this concept of empathy as if it's you know, the magic ingredients and solution, even to kind of resolving international conflict. 468 01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:55,000 When it's a little bit more complex. And not so easy for people not necessarily so functional and in the case of wider geopolitical conflicts people over empathize with their own people and fail to empathize with others. 469 01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:57,000 You know, you can 470 01:11:57,000 --> 01:11:58,000 Right. 471 01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:07,000 So I'm worried about oversimplifying empathy and I'm suggesting that This is a point of contrast between client centered counselling and M. 472 01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:08,000 Yeah. 473 01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:14,000 So, it might be, but I think it's also a point of contrast just within the umbrella of MI. 474 01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:22,000 Depending on what role you're in, what setting, the amount of time you have with the specific goals that you're using MI for. 475 01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:33,000 Right, because we know the at the very from the very outside. MI was used as an engagement tool into other therapies as well as to then helping. 476 01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:47,000 But even if you're using MI as a in a helping model, if you're physicians, you know, circulating on awards dealing with people or being you know, told their condition is terminal. 477 01:12:47,000 --> 01:13:06,000 And you've got to keep moving. You know, what am I is to you and how the the goal that you would be using it for the purpose you'd be using it for are different than if you are doing outpatient on going psychotherapy or you're working, you know, doing residential work with somebody. 478 01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:07,000 Yes. 479 01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:13,000 Yeah, I, I agree completely, Chris. I think. I don't think, and this is a discussion that goes also back a couple of decades, right? 480 01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:24,000 I don't think everything we call MI is the same. I don't think what I do when I'm doing MI in the context in the psychotherapy context. 481 01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:32,000 Is the same thing as what people do when they are doing MI in a busy hospital setting. And I don't think it's the same thing that I do. 482 01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:43,000 When I'm, in my current work, having conversations with people to help who are ill to help them do advanced care planning. 483 01:13:43,000 --> 01:14:04,000 I think Not, and certainly not what a dentist would do with, with, with the patient when they're talking about, you know, tooth care and not not only is it what for the reasons that you described Steve on the on the provider side, but on the patient or client side, you know, if you walk into a doctor's office. 484 01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:11,000 And the doctor is doing deep empathy with you, you're going to probably be weirded out. 485 01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:12,000 Yeah. 486 01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:18,000 It's not what you're looking for. From that in that setting. You know, you didn't go in there expecting somebody to be seeing into the depths of your soul. 487 01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:24,000 You, in there because you know you were feeling sick or you had a, you know, and you wanted help from them. 488 01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:39,000 With that. So I think whether we say it's different ways of doing MI or whether we should be making distinctions between what MI is in these different contexts. 489 01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:40,000 Not very 490 01:14:40,000 --> 01:14:56,000 I think MI is actually a very broad umbrella. And what it looks like in different contexts and there's a comment about, you know, in the criminal justice system, I would push back a little bit and I can't help myself from saying that you can't empathize with people who are engaging in criminal behavior in the in the full sense of empathy. 491 01:14:56,000 --> 01:15:08,000 And I think I, there's a paper that you wrote, Steve, decades ago about that I still love about working with with a person who had engaged in It's like abusive behavior. 492 01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:19,000 And, and the empathy of, and the power of MI in that context. But I do think. 493 01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:26,000 You're, you're not going to do empathy in the same way or at the same level in all contexts and nor should you. 494 01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:35,000 Yeah, and I've got it, you know, one of my sons a police officer and just earlier on this evening right he's looking at a video and then comes up on the video screen. 495 01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:40,000 2020. And so I walked into prepare food and I said, what's that? 2,020? 496 01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:46,000 He said, that's a signal on the video for me to take 20 min break before I look at the next frame. 497 01:15:46,000 --> 01:15:54,000 So distressing. Was the next frame going to be? Okay, so you forget about, you know. 498 01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:59,000 Yeah, I think you can finish my sentence. 499 01:15:59,000 --> 01:16:07,000 Yeah, and I think it's extremely useful what you're saying about the both of you, Ellen and Chris, that they're different settings in which you use MI. 500 01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:17,000 And different ways in which that happens and different Rolls for the use of empathic listening. 501 01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:18,000 Yeah. 502 01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:28,000 Yeah, so. Good context, different mechanisms, different goals, different focus. And it's where, I mean, 2 things come to mind. 503 01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:35,000 One is, MI is kind of what we would call a night name brand therapy at this point. And I think it's outgrown that. 504 01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:44,000 I think MI is. Maybe the name is not appropriate for this, but it's something more akin to cognitive behavioral therapy. 505 01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:59,000 A broad umbrella. In which the you know used in different settings in different ways but with kind of a general understanding of what the focus is in the general ways that we relate to people and kind of a set of tools that you can but don't have to use. 506 01:16:59,000 --> 01:17:09,000 Right in any given interaction. The to flip it around them to think about what is the other person experiencing is still work that I really hope that we do. 507 01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:28,000 More and more of going forward. Because you're you and Alan and and Steve you're contrasting different provider experiences of what empathy is, but if you flip it around to the patient or the client or the person on the receiving end. 508 01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:48,000 It may not really matter that they hear someone attempting to understand them and you're getting reasonably close and you want to get closer maybe the important things regardless of whether in your experience you're just cognitively identifying some things or emotionally alighting. 509 01:17:48,000 --> 01:18:04,000 You know, with things. I think Rogers idea of empathy and being both immersive but also detached, you know, if there's immersion and detachment at the same time, you're fully in but you gotta you know you don't lose yourself in it. 510 01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:05,000 Yes. 511 01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:09,000 Well, you, you never lose the as if quality. That and that was the thing that he was very explicit about that you've got one foot out. 512 01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:10,000 Yeah, yeah. 513 01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:30,000 Me mean something really different if you're doing kind of slow uncovering work of. You know, embedded traumas and how that's impacted people's identity over decades versus if you've got you know, pressing there's a problem right now and somebody needs to solve it. 514 01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:33,000 You know, I think it's just probably a different thing, but. 515 01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:43,000 I do and yet if I could just say one more thing about the cognitive empathy versus you know, something like what I would say the sort of full. 516 01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:52,000 Cognitive affective, which is what I think empathy really is a kind of both the art both I think. 517 01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:55,000 Very often when I have been working with with in supervision and coaching with folks who are struggling with the client and not able to figure out. 518 01:18:55,000 --> 01:19:08,000 And again, this is not in therapy settings. I'm talking about advanced care planning, patient navigation, so medical. 519 01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:21,000 Medical adjacent settings. Where they're feeling like they're just not getting anywhere in the conversation that they're having and the things that the client is saying is sort of that not quite grasping it very often. 520 01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:31,000 It's helping them to slow down. And allow themselves to resonate. With what the client is saying. 521 01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:39,000 And I, and I've adopted this concept of resonance. I found it to be very helpful for myself and for my when I'm doing coaching that. 522 01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:56,000 The metaphor, yeah, I've got my guitar in the background is, you know, when you pluck a guitar string, it's, it's the, the, top of the guitar resonates and, and how it resonates is going to determine the quality of the sound. 523 01:19:56,000 --> 01:20:01,000 If it's too stiff and rigid, you get no sound. If it's too loose, it sounds muddy. 524 01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:12,000 There has to be an ability to resonate with what the other person is saying. Which I think does mean some affective availability. 525 01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:21,000 And particularly when there's discord and when there is stuckness in the work between us. 526 01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:31,000 That will often give us the information, the clues we need to understand why am I not connecting. With this person that I'm trying to help. 527 01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:43,000 What's the unspoken? Between us that is creating a barrier. To them feeling accepted and safe so that we can actually work together. 528 01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:46,000 You know, in the direction of change. 529 01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:53,000 It's just superb. I've been getting emails from people while while we're chatting. 530 01:20:53,000 --> 01:21:07,000 Saying things like I had to knock off but is there some way I can access the recording? And I know from, Because I know Angela Well, she's probably thinking Is only 8 min left. 531 01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:14,000 And I'm wondering whether we should hand over 532 01:21:14,000 --> 01:21:17,000 The next few minutes. 533 01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:18,000 One 534 01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:24,000 Yeah, they'll definitely be. That will definitely be a way to access the recording. I mean, we do the podcast. 535 01:21:24,000 --> 01:21:33,000 And get it up on YouTube. So, you know, I'd love to say in 24 h, but we'll see how it goes. 536 01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:45,000 So, I mean, all of the all of our episodes are on podcasts. And on the YouTube so far. 537 01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:52,000 I don't know, just noticing. Well, I'm wanting to give some of the participants who are in the sidelines. 538 01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:53,000 Some space. 539 01:21:53,000 --> 01:22:03,000 Yes, I think we've been trying to address some of those they come up, but it would be great if people would pop up and share either the next thought or something we missed or. 540 01:22:03,000 --> 01:22:07,000 You know, something else that they would like to have a conversation about. 541 01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:08,000 Have a look. 542 01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:09,000 So what were you thinking we should do, Steve? Kind of watch it down. 543 01:22:09,000 --> 01:22:19,000 I love that last comment, the comment by on it and the last one that kind of came through, you know, it could probably be a whole topic of conversation, you know, you know, is, Is am I more complicated than it needs to be? 544 01:22:19,000 --> 01:22:38,000 I know Steve, you probably love that question because that has spoken to to your commitment to. And Bill's as well to find the simplicity on the other side of complexity in talking about MI and how we understand it. 545 01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:49,000 I do think MI is more than person-centered therapy I don't think any of us would disagree about that and and We can't reduce one to the other. 546 01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:52,000 Both more than and less than, different than, yeah. 547 01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:54,000 More than and less than, yes, different. 548 01:22:54,000 --> 01:23:08,000 I think it's comments got wisdom to it but really I really feel their eyes. Has got quite a purposeful quality. 549 01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:09,000 Yeah. 550 01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:19,000 To it. It's got a directional purpose for quality that's something that's beautiful and 551 01:23:19,000 --> 01:23:20,000 Yeah. 552 01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:23,000 I think what owners describing is an absolutely gorgeous description of engagement. To use to use the MI free framework. 553 01:23:23,000 --> 01:23:28,000 And then owner. Where next? 554 01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:34,000 Yeah, like the on a opened up the flip side of what I'd said earlier what And they said Bill was doing more. 555 01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:46,000 It's now that Rogers was doing more, but that was the receiving. I do think Rogers would think I might more complicated than needs to be, but I challenge him to try to get done in the amount of time what MI gets done. 556 01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:50,000 Without getting things up a little bit. 557 01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:51,000 Exactly. Exactly. 558 01:23:51,000 --> 01:23:55,000 Yeah, a lot of consensus. I wonder if there's. 559 01:23:55,000 --> 01:23:56,000 Hi. 560 01:23:56,000 --> 01:24:05,000 And that sort of comes back around. A little bit to the. Where we started when we started bumping up against the contrast with the negotiating part. 561 01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:13,000 And that's where it gets complicated. That's where, you know, I'm, I'm going, okay, we need to negotiate. 562 01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:26,000 What it is you want to address as opposed to you just. Be yourself and and and as I was reading Clients and in therapy, Roger's original book. 563 01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:48,000 I had this idea in under this maybe just like one of these joel things. Is it all the psychoanalysis and climate therapy are quite different and most most way a lot of well Rogers was influenced by auto rank and and gestalt therapy as well would look very different. 564 01:24:48,000 --> 01:25:00,000 But the therapist's role is to remain consistent. Whole time. And so if I'm the person's inner therapist All I'm trying to do is offer. 565 01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:09,000 Offer back to the person what I'm experiencing. From them in their words. Right, so there's no negotiation about where do we go. 566 01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:14,000 Well, But through the eyes of love and And right, right. 567 01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:29,000 Oh yeah, 100%. 100%. I mean he even wrote that there's no investment in the outcome even if it's the outcome could create harm for the client. 568 01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:30,000 Wow. 569 01:25:30,000 --> 01:25:34,000 Right, you just have to trust the process. That they will. You know, a line they'll integrate was a word that he would use. 570 01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:42,000 They, they would become integrated. Within themselves and then they'll make better choices. They'll make choices that they can live with. 571 01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:47,000 I'll be a better way to put that. 572 01:25:47,000 --> 01:25:53,000 There's a comment about pluralism. In the back channel, but I don't know that that's something we can tackle in a minute or 2. 573 01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:58,000 Pluralistic. 574 01:25:58,000 --> 01:25:59,000 That's what 575 01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:02,000 Okay. Maybe it's, still, waiting aboard, but can I just, can I just share one little? 576 01:26:02,000 --> 01:26:10,000 It's not nitpicky makes it sound bad but a little thing that I just want to mention so in honest 577 01:26:10,000 --> 01:26:23,000 Tat she quotes at the end part of a Rogers quote that is pretty famous that I always get a little unsettled because it consistently gets misquoted and this is the misquote here. 578 01:26:23,000 --> 01:26:31,000 There's a quote is that you know the curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am that I can change. 579 01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:35,000 And that's why it's quoted everywhere, but in Rogers books, it's actually book. 580 01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:43,000 It's actually when I accept myself just as I am, then I change. And it might just, other people might not think that's a. 581 01:26:43,000 --> 01:26:51,000 Fundamental difference. But to me it makes it difference in that acceptance just doesn't just open up the possibility. 582 01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:52,000 In after which people can change because they're not locked up. That's a part of it. 583 01:26:52,000 --> 01:27:08,000 But from Rogers position designers that acceptance is change. And he talks about, and I think to go back to some of the ways he'd think about am I in a complicated nature of it. 584 01:27:08,000 --> 01:27:14,000 He talks about once there is acceptance change just kind of happens naturally. I don't even think about it. 585 01:27:14,000 --> 01:27:21,000 People don't even think about it just flows out of them kind of being more congruent and genuine in themselves. 586 01:27:21,000 --> 01:27:22,000 Wow. 587 01:27:22,000 --> 01:27:26,000 So that one always, I don't know why it's all. Thank you, Anna. 588 01:27:26,000 --> 01:27:27,000 Thank you. 589 01:27:27,000 --> 01:27:35,000 It's not your missed call. It's the way I see everywhere online is I can change but I've checked multiple editions of the book and it doesn't say can there. 590 01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:36,000 Incredibly, that's 591 01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:54,000 But I think that is profound, Chris. Actually, it's not, it's small, but it is profound because it speaks to Rogers fundamental understanding of of personality formation, personality change and what it means to be a human being that that self acceptance. 592 01:27:54,000 --> 01:28:04,000 The most radical thing that can happen. The the most profound thing that can happen. For the person and and it's the absence of self acceptance. 593 01:28:04,000 --> 01:28:11,000 The limitations on self acceptance that other source of suffering. And they 594 01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:12,000 And then. 595 01:28:12,000 --> 01:28:14,000 And what we can do is we can help you have self acceptance and quit smoking. 596 01:28:14,000 --> 01:28:15,000 That's right. 597 01:28:15,000 --> 01:28:17,000 Okay. 598 01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:24,000 If you're, if you're gonna feel good about yourself, let's set it up so you can feel about yourself longer, like longer. 599 01:28:24,000 --> 01:28:25,000 Yeah. 600 01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:26,000 Stay around long enough. Yeah, to be able to enjoy it exactly. 601 01:28:26,000 --> 01:28:28,000 Yeah, it's really superb. 602 01:28:28,000 --> 01:28:32,000 In the context, they would have been smoking in the sessions back then too. 603 01:28:32,000 --> 01:28:33,000 Well. 604 01:28:33,000 --> 01:28:36,000 Yeah, we've seen that great. 605 01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:37,000 Right. 606 01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:54,000 Yeah, I study. I'm a couple of my professors in fact were guys who had been with Rogers in Chicago and all of them smoked like chimneys in the Even this is either of course I was in grad school in the early eighties and and but It was a constant in all the sessions. 607 01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:55,000 Yep. 608 01:28:55,000 --> 01:29:05,000 It is now on the half hour. So the session is now closed. Please feel free to leave. Thanks everybody. 609 01:29:05,000 --> 01:29:12,000 You've been thankful nit picking. Christmas. Is quite a compliment. 610 01:29:12,000 --> 01:29:14,000 8 days. 611 01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:27,000 I wanted to, I felt I didn't get to bring, to address Dave's comment earlier in the chat and looking for an opportunity to and didn't get to but amplifying the idea that exploring sustained talk. 612 01:29:27,000 --> 01:29:41,000 That is also is sort of drawing a parallel with. Messages of positivity that that lead people to be afraid to explore. 613 01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:51,000 Difficult emotions like regret. Sadness longing and how powerful it can be to give people that space. 614 01:29:51,000 --> 01:30:09,000 To to not shy away from or not think if we if If we allow people, you know, or invite people to express those feelings that we're that we're keeping them stuck or that we are in some way interfering with their their growth, but very often it's an important part of. 615 01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:12,000 Their ability to grow from their experience. 616 01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:17,000 Yeah, and if I have a regret, it's ever put, this is just personal, Len. 617 01:30:17,000 --> 01:30:24,000 I'm not, it's not a party line. I, I very much regret ever creating the impression. 618 01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:31,000 That MI is about cultivating change talk at the expense of sustained talk. I think it's a naive. 619 01:30:31,000 --> 01:30:40,000 An unhelpful. Proposition We've been too many occasions. I had 2 or 3 this morning. 620 01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:51,000 Too many occasions where you give someone Space to get it off their chest and to really Describe how to moralize they feel and why. 621 01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:56,000 It opens up the avenue for change and 622 01:30:56,000 --> 01:31:03,000 To me, it's one it's one useful tool in MI and we're much better off to be able to think. 623 01:31:03,000 --> 01:31:13,000 In this moment, it seems like cultivating the change talk and softening the stain talk or however you might could be helpful and then there are other times ago no this person just needs to vomit it all out. 624 01:31:13,000 --> 01:31:19,000 They need to say everything that's bad about this, everything they hate and then kind of go, okay, now what do I need to do? 625 01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:21,000 You know, they're times building confidence. 626 01:31:21,000 --> 01:31:22,000 And that would that would be in a more person center framework. 627 01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:35,000 Bye. But I think it's almost inevitable, right? When, I mean, I, you know, my perspective is that the idea of self motivational, you know, statements or change talk and this whole. 628 01:31:35,000 --> 01:32:02,000 This was this is you know one of the primary innovations that MI brought. To to the field and and it's an and sort of really important innovation and certainly I think for any of us who practiced and trained MI, or you know, you know, feel we'd probably feel very strongly about that that I can I can't imagine my practice now without that construct before I back to before I had it I feel 629 01:32:02,000 --> 01:32:14,000 like I was so much less effective as a therapist and as a practitioner. And I think when you have something like that that you know, it's in there almost inevitable that it becomes. 630 01:32:14,000 --> 01:32:19,000 You know, that there's a pendulum swing towards it, right? That it, that it becomes the thing. 631 01:32:19,000 --> 01:32:38,000 And we then lose sight of its place in in a broader. Context and and maybe that's where really what we would like to be seeing is that kind of re contextualization, not losing it, but having it have its proper place. 632 01:32:38,000 --> 01:32:41,000 In the broader milieu of MI practice. 633 01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:58,000 Helen, you're flying. It's absolutely beautiful. Because I found today that when I used reflection in response to change talk, it speeded up the process of receiving this shower and this person feeling acknowledged and heard. 634 01:32:58,000 --> 01:33:13,000 So it it was much better to use reflection in response to. Sustained talk. I guess the key thing is my awareness of what it is someone was saying that it was sustained talk. 635 01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:14,000 Yeah, it's very helpful. Yeah. 636 01:33:14,000 --> 01:33:22,000 And, you know, and my awareness that it a certain point I might well dive in and say, where does this leave you now? 637 01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:26,000 And where would you like to go? Yeah. Exactly. 638 01:33:26,000 --> 01:33:27,000 In the 639 01:33:27,000 --> 01:33:38,000 Yeah. And then. So it comes a fit and it was an efficient conversation with somebody who was very distressed where there was a lot at stake it was an athlete a lot at stake in this conversation. 640 01:33:38,000 --> 01:33:51,000 And I think he felt very validated by me hearing exactly how to moralize and angry and upset and misunderstood he felt. 641 01:33:51,000 --> 01:33:52,000 No question. 642 01:33:52,000 --> 01:33:57,000 Absolutely. 643 01:33:57,000 --> 01:33:58,000 Yeah, exactly. 644 01:33:58,000 --> 01:33:59,000 Yeah, the goal of MI is not a listening change talk. It's helping people change. It's important to know about eliciting. 645 01:33:59,000 --> 01:34:03,000 Well. 646 01:34:03,000 --> 01:34:04,000 That's very beautiful. 647 01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:06,000 Change talk as part of that, but that's not. Our goal. That's a method for the end. 648 01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:07,000 Yeah. 649 01:34:07,000 --> 01:34:12,000 And change talk and sustained talk, or just the 2 sides of ambivalence. 650 01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:19,000 So either you can you can say, oh, I'm doing with change talking. So state like, no, you're helping somebody explore and resolve their ambivalence. 651 01:34:19,000 --> 01:34:21,000 Is what you're trying to do. 652 01:34:21,000 --> 01:34:24,000 I love the look. 653 01:34:24,000 --> 01:34:25,000 Yeah. I will. 654 01:34:25,000 --> 01:34:30,000 That's still how I conceptualize it, Joe. I will never let go of, of, ambivalence being at the heart of how I conceptualize our 655 01:34:30,000 --> 01:34:37,000 And this guy that I spoke to today where there were quantities of both, I didn't experience it as ambivalence. 656 01:34:37,000 --> 01:34:44,000 You see, but maybe I'm wrong, but he was Just demoralized, misunderstood, distressed. 657 01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:52,000 And pessimistic. That's how we felt. He felt bad. Okay. 658 01:34:52,000 --> 01:34:57,000 So yeah, there you go. And then it's swung round. 659 01:34:57,000 --> 01:35:06,000 But we're well past the needing to be. Mindful of what we say. 660 01:35:06,000 --> 01:35:09,000 Yes, we're well past the button needing to be mindful. Yeah. 661 01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:16,000 Go, go, one thing for the few is to ask Ellen and Chris and whoever else we can find. 662 01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:23,000 What? So link between am I and acceptance and commitment therapy. 663 01:35:23,000 --> 01:35:24,000 Oh, don't ask me that. I'm not the right person. 664 01:35:24,000 --> 01:35:31,000 Oh, that would be fun. I will ask Chris that Chris is the guru on act. 665 01:35:31,000 --> 01:35:32,000 Yeah. 666 01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:33,000 Chris had someone. 667 01:35:33,000 --> 01:35:41,000 God, you're messing with me now. Joe's on up. Joe's on a conversation thread where I just said I just spent a month teaching act and then I went to try to read a Steve Hayes article couldn't even make it through. 668 01:35:41,000 --> 01:35:42,000 Yeah. 669 01:35:42,000 --> 01:35:46,000 I did. Totally lies that like what an imposter. I just thought something I can't even read it, but. 670 01:35:46,000 --> 01:36:06,000 But I think we should want to give credit to, you know, the use of the word acceptance and what do they mean there and I had a sports psychologist come to me today and said, Oh, Steve, it's very interesting to meet you. 671 01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:07,000 Yes. 672 01:36:07,000 --> 01:36:10,000 And my preferred way of working is acceptance and commitment therapy. It's quite widespread and be quite nice to understand what it is that that is a value in it. 673 01:36:10,000 --> 01:36:11,000 And how would 674 01:36:11,000 --> 01:36:15,000 That would be a great webinar. Topic actually. 675 01:36:15,000 --> 01:36:23,000 Yeah. Well, maybe we could look at something like, you know, people will also say. That evolution focus therapy and MI. 676 01:36:23,000 --> 01:36:26,000 Are a lot alike. And I know there's, you know, the one of the differences about. 677 01:36:26,000 --> 01:36:30,000 Yeah, solution focus therapy, I think is, is a thing of the past really, Joel. 678 01:36:30,000 --> 01:36:36,000 I mean, it's it's just kind of but I think it acceptance a commitment therapy is very much of the moment. 679 01:36:36,000 --> 01:36:37,000 It is, it is. 680 01:36:37,000 --> 01:36:38,000 Okay. 681 01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:43,000 And we have, of my practitioners and trainers who do both and who who really value see the the overlap. 682 01:36:43,000 --> 01:36:51,000 I'm not one of them but I know we have many and Great. 683 01:36:51,000 --> 01:36:52,000 Well, I'm sure. 684 01:36:52,000 --> 01:36:57,000 I would love to be a part of or at least listen to that conversation. Yeah, so for the last teaching a circle of approaches, am I? 685 01:36:57,000 --> 01:37:14,000 Act positive psychology DBT. Sematic therapies and compassion therapies. Because I got into this habit for years of only doing MI and I just started seeing everything as MI the whole hammer nailed like, oh, I can figure out a way to call that MI if I like it. 686 01:37:14,000 --> 01:37:20,000 And so I wanted to start separating these out in my mind if figure out what really are the areas of overlap and and difference. 687 01:37:20,000 --> 01:37:21,000 And I think different differences with act. 688 01:37:21,000 --> 01:37:29,000 Yeah, and then. And Diane Slate is quite rightly pointing out there's a lot of process based research which is worth looking at. 689 01:37:29,000 --> 01:37:36,000 Then there's compassion focused therapy and there's a fella. Who fronts that who will come onto this. 690 01:37:36,000 --> 01:37:40,000 I know him. We've communicated. I'm sorry. I've forgotten his name. 691 01:37:40,000 --> 01:37:45,000 We didn't meant to stand, but if you're talking about the 692 01:37:45,000 --> 01:37:46,000 So. 693 01:37:46,000 --> 01:37:51,000 You might be thinking of more of a British, there's a couple of British guys who are very, yeah, yeah. 694 01:37:51,000 --> 01:37:54,000 They'll come on and help us with that. 695 01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:59,000 So if we do that, I would want to invite you to also consider self-compassion work. 696 01:37:59,000 --> 01:38:06,000 Which is adjacent to compassion, focused their boot is really a different model. In many ways. 697 01:38:06,000 --> 01:38:17,000 That's really super of course being in sport. You know, guys, people, women and men beat themselves like, up like you wouldn't believe, right? 698 01:38:17,000 --> 01:38:22,000 So if you ask them, what's it going to be like if you're only 75% today? 699 01:38:22,000 --> 01:38:27,000 You know, you what you're inducing is the sense of. You know, compassion for themselves. 700 01:38:27,000 --> 01:38:34,000 And they go out and perform better. That's my experience anyway. I'm a very concrete guy, Chris. 701 01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:36,000 I live in a very concrete world. 702 01:38:36,000 --> 01:38:39,000 Right. 703 01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:42,000 That 704 01:38:42,000 --> 01:38:44,000 Alright, we gotta go. Looks like Angela already is like, all right, I'm done. 705 01:38:44,000 --> 01:38:46,000 Yeah. 706 01:38:46,000 --> 01:38:47,000 She left. 707 01:38:47,000 --> 01:38:48,000 Yeah, no, she made me host. 708 01:38:48,000 --> 01:38:53,000 Yeah. Thank you for the, for this opportunity to have this conversation. It's, 709 01:38:53,000 --> 01:38:54,000 Yeah. 710 01:38:54,000 --> 01:39:03,000 No, I remember the 3 of us did something similar. With Bill and England at Sheffield. 711 01:39:03,000 --> 01:39:06,000 But it didn't, don't recall it as being we didn't have this long. So. 712 01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:11,000 No, and we had we had, that's where actually I forget the gentleman's name now. 713 01:39:11,000 --> 01:39:13,000 The person said, I forgot his name. 714 01:39:13,000 --> 01:39:25,000 Yeah, we talked about the tribes of that was the first time I heard that term the tribes of of the person centered field and this idea of you know, these the subgroups within it. 715 01:39:25,000 --> 01:39:40,000 Yeah, that was fun. I mean, it's It's certainly been our, you know, for several of us, it's been one of our, I think, recurring, you know, goals to continue to bring. 716 01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:54,000 Bring Rogers and the person centered world together. And Of course, Bill has adopted that to some extent as well by going to PCE and giving those talks and We haven't, I don't know that we've had a lot of receptiveness on the PCE side on the on the person sentence. 717 01:39:54,000 --> 01:40:01,000 It's mixed. Yeah, the call that I've been to and presented. It's mixed, certainly. 718 01:40:01,000 --> 01:40:06,000 You know, cause it feels like I think there's a competition for turf and like who's this? 719 01:40:06,000 --> 01:40:15,000 They're new, they're not really. Person centered and they're a lot bigger than most of these approaches in terms of studies and reach. 720 01:40:15,000 --> 01:40:16,000 So. 721 01:40:16,000 --> 01:40:21,000 Good. 722 01:40:21,000 --> 01:40:22,000 You might. 723 01:40:22,000 --> 01:40:25,000 I think Robert Elliott talked about at last year's PCE. He does always analytic work on psychotherapy effectiveness. 724 01:40:25,000 --> 01:40:34,000 And the client center therapy was looking pretty good, but he acknowledged that the reason why clients send the therapy was looking pretty good was that there were a lot of MI studies in there. 725 01:40:34,000 --> 01:40:42,000 And they were, from his perspective, It would be, included, but. 726 01:40:42,000 --> 01:40:43,000 Yeah. 727 01:40:43,000 --> 01:40:52,000 Did it didn't weren't you one of the conferences Chris where You're talking about a study, maybe the, the Selman study where They compared MET to. 728 01:40:52,000 --> 01:40:57,000 Person centered or probably more of like an. 729 01:40:57,000 --> 01:41:01,000 Catholic counseling. And somebody said, who role played the person sitter counseling therapist? 730 01:41:01,000 --> 01:41:09,000 It was it was Bill presenting on one of Terry's study where they contrasted. MI versus the non directive. 731 01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:17,000 Selective practice and the advantages of MI. And yeah, that was the Very challenging question from somebody in the audience. 732 01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:21,000 So who role played the person-centered therapist? With the clear implication that like you don't really know what you're doing. 733 01:41:21,000 --> 01:41:29,000 You can just pretend to do it. And so it's not, and actually. 734 01:41:29,000 --> 01:41:34,000 I think there might be some legitimacy to that, not to question what Terry and others do, but. 735 01:41:34,000 --> 01:41:41,000 You know, again, I think in the MI world we tend to think of person centered therapy as am I without direction. 736 01:41:41,000 --> 01:41:46,000 And there's so much more and different to it. It's not even, you know. Okay. 737 01:41:46,000 --> 01:41:53,000 Did he ever use the word joy? 738 01:41:53,000 --> 01:41:54,000 Joy? 739 01:41:54,000 --> 01:41:56,000 Yeah. 740 01:41:56,000 --> 01:41:57,000 Rogers. 741 01:41:57,000 --> 01:41:58,000 Yeah, or Miller, we have. 742 01:41:58,000 --> 01:42:03,000 Ha ha. 743 01:42:03,000 --> 01:42:15,000 Well, I have to say the biggest emotional response I've ever, one of the biggest emotional response I've ever seen from Bill was his reaction to The paper I did with Karen on positive emotions and positive. 744 01:42:15,000 --> 01:42:20,000 Psychology into MI. 745 01:42:20,000 --> 01:42:21,000 I don't, about it. 746 01:42:21,000 --> 01:42:38,000 Hmm. I think this, you know, You know, I do think there is another, I mean, this contrast is partly characterological as much as anything else between MI and, and clients in the therapy right because Rogers the form of of the classic, you know, Rogers response was always you really feel, right? 747 01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:47,000 I mean, they when they did teach it as a technique, it was Start with you really feel. And what really matters are the feelings. 748 01:42:47,000 --> 01:42:53,000 And you know, when you watch, you know, Bill doing MI, you know, from the earliest demonstration. 749 01:42:53,000 --> 01:43:05,000 It's very much more of a cognitive. The thought focused process and and I think that And I think that's what allows MI to be. 750 01:43:05,000 --> 01:43:15,000 Brief and to be focused and to be all many of the things that that we all appreciate. Good. 751 01:43:15,000 --> 01:43:23,000 It's not about. The depth of feeling per se. 752 01:43:23,000 --> 01:43:32,000 There's joy. 753 01:43:32,000 --> 01:43:33,000 Alright. 754 01:43:33,000 --> 01:43:39,000 I love it. That's a great quote, Joe. 755 01:43:39,000 --> 01:43:40,000 I'm happy to stick on or go whatever Joel you direct us in. 756 01:43:40,000 --> 01:43:43,000 Yeah, I, I probably should go. I have a meeting that I've. I'm late too, so and happily late too, but that's fine. 757 01:43:43,000 --> 01:43:53,000 I should probably still go to it. Even though this is more fun. 758 01:43:53,000 --> 01:43:58,000 Yeah. Okay. 759 01:43:58,000 --> 01:43:59,000 Okay. 760 01:43:59,000 --> 01:44:00,000 Okay. 761 01:44:00,000 --> 01:44:01,000 Lovely. To be with you guys. I'm gonna go now as well. Thank you so, so, so, so much. 762 01:44:01,000 --> 01:44:05,000 Thanks guys. Much for Chris. I'll talk to you later. 763 01:44:05,000 --> 01:44:11,000 Thank you for the conversation. Steve, it's really my experience kind of rare to be able to. 764 01:44:11,000 --> 01:44:21,000 Have conversations with people who are founders, co-founders, co-developers who are so rigidly attached to the way they see things that it kind of takes over the conversation. 765 01:44:21,000 --> 01:44:29,000 You can't really, it's not really a You know, a mutual conversation. It's just people talking and it's nice to actually feel. 766 01:44:29,000 --> 01:44:34,000 The back and forth and you know, you listening and reacting. Even if it's, what was that face you made? 767 01:44:34,000 --> 01:44:38,000 Yeah. 768 01:44:38,000 --> 01:44:40,000 It was a great face. Something either I or Alan would say you guys forget and then 769 01:44:40,000 --> 01:44:46,000 Okay. 770 01:44:46,000 --> 01:44:47,000 And, and, and then the moment. 771 01:44:47,000 --> 01:44:48,000 Okay, it was me talking about that, you know, the deep empathy. Yeah, entering another person's, world. 772 01:44:48,000 --> 01:44:52,000 Yeah, yeah. 773 01:44:52,000 --> 01:44:53,000 Yeah, the moment. 774 01:44:53,000 --> 01:44:54,000 Okay. 775 01:44:54,000 --> 01:44:55,000 Yeah, Oh. Not that I don't need value, Ellen. 776 01:44:55,000 --> 01:44:57,000 No, no, no, but I, your point, I agree with completely, Steve. 777 01:44:57,000 --> 01:45:00,000 Yeah. 778 01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:06,000 Yeah, the points where you say we're not sure we did it right. I mean, just So good to hear, right? 779 01:45:06,000 --> 01:45:18,000 Because the danger of all of these things I think is they get locked into some. I mean that's the we could eventually have a splintering when you and Bill stopped contributing. 780 01:45:18,000 --> 01:45:26,000 Or we can hopefully have a way that there is some sort of umbrella that people can have different. 781 01:45:26,000 --> 01:45:30,000 Pieces under and will argue you know is one of your one of your feet on the outside of the line or not but 782 01:45:30,000 --> 01:45:31,000 Exactly. 783 01:45:31,000 --> 01:45:35,000 We're gonna have different tribes. 784 01:45:35,000 --> 01:45:40,000 The I think I think I heard you say Jeff Allison was on at some point, but I missed that. 785 01:45:40,000 --> 01:45:44,000 Thank you, for you sent me an email. 786 01:45:44,000 --> 01:45:53,000 Because there was something else we could have talked about like toward the end of Rogers work. And particularly Gene Genland who picked it up. 787 01:45:53,000 --> 01:46:06,000 And I don't know if Rogers totally agreed to gentlemen, but Genolin was saying. Focus your attention on things that are unclear where the story is vague and is not yet unpacked. 788 01:46:06,000 --> 01:46:14,000 Because it's behind that where you can really help somebody. And it reminds me of some of what Jeff used to say about ambiguous talk, I think he called it. 789 01:46:14,000 --> 01:46:23,000 And I believe you just presented on that and at the UK, Ireland. Thanks. So, happy to see him kind of back in the mix. 790 01:46:23,000 --> 01:46:24,000 Talking with us all. 791 01:46:24,000 --> 01:46:25,000 Yeah. 792 01:46:25,000 --> 01:46:26,000 I would love to hear that. Would have loved to have heard that talk. But Yeah. 793 01:46:26,000 --> 01:46:27,000 Okay, on this computer. 794 01:46:27,000 --> 01:46:37,000 Yeah, the idea, you know. Part of his idea was, you know, find those things are ambiguous and work with it and see if you can help somebody find change talk in that. 795 01:46:37,000 --> 01:46:39,000 Yeah. 796 01:46:39,000 --> 01:46:47,000 That is not always clear if it's change or sustained talk that sometimes it's kinda depends on how you hear it and you know what you went back. 797 01:46:47,000 --> 01:46:50,000 Alright, see you all and have a good meeting. See, Even have a good evening, Joel. 798 01:46:50,000 --> 01:46:51,000 Yeah. 799 01:46:51,000 --> 01:46:54,000 Yeah, Thank you. Thank you all so much. It's been a joy.