Maybe Having Another Kid Would Break Us

0:00[upbeat music] Hey, I have three kids. They eat so much. We try to eat real food. We try to cook when we can. We try not to waste too much 'cause it drives me nuts, and it's expensive, and also for obvious climate reasons, which is why the Mill Food Recycler changed our lives a couple years ago. It is an odorless, effortless, and fully automated food recycler. Look, we've had this thing front and center in our kitchen for, again, a couple years now it feels like, and it is just such a game changer.

0:38Way less waste, less smell, way less garbage, which by the way, saves you money. No leaky bags. Look, you got peels, bones, stalks, whatever leftovers, dump them in the Mill, and Mill dries and grinds them while you sleep. Again, it doesn't smell, which I don't understand. It's sleek. It's actually sexy. Here's a question people ask, "How often do you empty it?" Good question. It's every three weeks. I don't know, maybe, and there's a bunch of us.

1:07Plus, there's a little app where you can control it if you want and set a schedule, and it shows you how much food your family keeps out of landfills. A delight. Look, you can get $75 off right now when you go to our special partner site. I'm gonna read you the link, but you should know it's also in the show notes, and you can just click it. It is mill.com/lp/important-not-important. That is mill.com/lp/important-not-important. I couldn't remember that, so we put it in the show notes.

1:44It's right there for you. Check it out. Huge thanks to Mill for sponsoring our work and doing the right thing, and thanks to all of you listeners for supporting our partners. [upbeat music] I have a theory is that only girl children especially are always extremely advanced and sophisticated, and that can be harmful to the mom especially, 'cause I feel like I also hear about them being... Well, both parents. They can be extra smart and mean, you know, like a dinosaur that learned how to open a door. [upbeat music] Welcome to Not Right Now, the podcast about parenting through all of this.

2:24We'll be talking about slash crashing out over topics like- Soccer snacks and sea level rise. While the Arctic melts, question mark. Cleaning out uneaten lunchboxes again at 4:00 PM or 10:00 PM every day. Youth sports and other camp signups you forgot about and won't get into anyways. And is there such a thing as unstructured time anymore for anyone? For me? It's not an advice show. It's a you're not alone, and you're also not crazy for screaming in the shower kinda show. I'm Claire Zulkey from Evil Witches. And I'm Quinn Emmett from Important Not Important.

2:58You can find details on anything we talk about in the show notes or at our website, notrightnow.show..show. And if you like what you hear today, please share it with a parent who needs it or who might laugh and tell their kids to be quiet and then drop us a nice little five-star review. And reminder, you can send questions or feedback to [email protected]. [upbeat music] Hey, it is Quinn. It's 2026, something of that sort. We have a guest today, very exciting. Claire's been finding all kinds of fun people for us to talk to, and today's guest is Joy Natanya Thompson. She is a parent.

3:40She lives in Los Angeles. She is a fiction writer. She writes a newsletter sometimes called Midweek Joy, which is on Substack, and she's a pleasure to talk to and is really interesting for us because Joy only has one kid, and that is by choice, and it is a fascinating examination of the similarities between our lives and hers and her kids' versus ours, and yeah. So I don't know. It's fun. I hope you guys are safe and everything out there. Holy shit. [upbeat music] I feel like I'm raising my dad, you know?

4:14Only my dad is nicer to me than my kids, and sometimes he gives me money, which my kids don't do. Anyway, Joy, how is your 2025 going so far? It's 2026 and not great for anyone. I'll answer. It's going like that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's good so far. I'm in LA, and so last year it was, like, crazy at this time. I'm not near the fires. I'm about 20 miles away from Altadena, but it was like... It just felt really apocalyptic a year ago. So I'm just kind of like, wow, at least life is normal right now, and yeah, normal here right now. You know, it's, like, not normal in so many parts of the country, but our little neighborhood and house are safe.

4:55It feels like it's been so long since those fires, and it seems like only by the grace of God could we get through another year without something like that. Has there been anything, like, showing that something like that could happen again, or, like, they're just, so far things are under control? With the fires, I mean, it's always a threat in this area, and, you know, they're definitely doing everything they can. I work for a GIS company, like, as a editor, so I'm editing articles all the time about how fire departments and agencies are just doing all these things. But it's just... I don't know.

5:30It's inevitable in some ways, so you just kinda always wait for the next one. I don't live in the hills at all, and I never will because I grew up in Southern California, and so I'm like, I'd rather be down in the flats. And so we're usually safe where we are. But yeah, there hasn't been anything. We've had a really rainy winter, so that might help. Okay. But then usually that ends up just creating a bunch of brush to dry out and then create a really bad fire season the next year. So it's... I don't know. Yeah.

5:57That's part of the reason why Quinn left, I think, was, like, the just insurance going up and just the, like- Yeah... nonstop thrill a minute of the- I was in Studio City- Yeah... Laurel Canyon for a long time, and it was great, but yeah, not great. And you're right. Yeah. You're totally right. Everyone's like, "Great, rain." You're like, "Yeah, all that stuff's gonna grow, and then it's gonna not rain." Yeah. "And then it'll burn." So. Yeah. Anyways.

6:16Yeah.So we, I was reminding Quinn about our impetus to talk 'cause we, it's been a little bit since we first reached out. Remind me, and I said it's pretty simple. It's just the topic of how many kids you have or don't have, and sort of the baggage and choices that comes around that. But I think we could also talk about siblings as we are young and as we are older. But remind me how old your daughter is now. Yeah. I have one daughter, and her name is Zadie, and she just turned 10 on the 4th of January. So yeah, freshly minted double digits. And how did it go?

6:48How did her birthday go? I think we talked a little bit about having a kid whose birthday is around the hol- both you guys have kids whose birthdays are around the holidays, and I'm curious to know how you manage to separate that amount of joy, specialness, presents, you know. We don't do joy. I know my husband- We gave up on that a while ago. Yeah. How do you guys do- make that happen when you have a kid who, you know, when you may have Christmas or whatever, Hanukkah, coming up right after that? How do you guys make room for all of it? Yeah.

7:15When's your kid's birthday, Quinn? I was just thinking, it's interesting. It's a couple weeks before Christmas, but- Okay... we're usually like, "Okay, holiday season, also we gotta make sure to fit in his birthday." We're there kind of in a row. One of my other kids is couple weeks before that, and me, and Thanksgiving, and all that stuff. But yours is interesting to me because do you ever get through the holidays and then go, "Oh, fuck. Right. The- we gotta do the birthday." You think you're done, and- Yeah... then you got a birthday? It's horrible.

7:42It's so horrible, and I feel bad saying that, you know? But, like, even my husband and I were, like, pretty... Like, we were trying to have a baby when w- we got pregnant. Mm-hmm. And I wish that we would have just skipped that month and been like- Uh-huh... "Let's try next month because then we won't have a Christmas or January baby." And I think we did it for Christmas. I was like, "Okay, this won't land on Christmas, so we're good." But I wasn't thinking about how shitty it is to have a kid who's... Yeah. It's...

8:11So this year, her birthday landed on the day before school went back, so the very last day of winter break. And, you know, she's a total extrovert. She's a party girl. She has ex- incredibly expensive taste, and she just wanted a party. And last year we did this, like, whole Willy Wonka themed party, which I have to say I was very proud of, and it was amazing. And I said, "We're not doing that again. We're not doing a party next year," and then here I am. We did a party again. Yeah.

8:38So my plan is we start talking about it in November, and I'm like, "We need to decide on a theme, and we need to get the ball rolling because once the holidays start, like, it's gonna be over." So we decided on a theme, and I kind of ordered... You know, her theme was Paris this year, and so I got this, like, cool banner from Etsy that looks like a cafe, and it said Zadie's Cafe or whatever. So I ordered that early. You know, like, stuff that I needed to order early. And then I just kind of put it out of my mind.

9:05I sent the invitations, and then I put it out of my mind 'cause I was like, "Oh, we'll have, you know, a few days off to get all the other stuff and figure everything out." And then it's, like, New Year's Day, and, you know, you just wanna be done. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like, New Year's Day we always take down our decorations, and that's, like, the best part of Christmas to me is taking down the decorations and being like, "Okay- Very cathartic... we're restored to, like, our normal state." And to do that and then be like, "Shit. I have to do all this stuff now."

9:33[laughs] So yeah, it's kind of like running a marathon and then being asked to, like, choreograph a three-minute original dance at the end, and you're just like, "I'm dried out. I don't have anything left." Right. Yeah. But we did it. So how do you do presents though for that? Do you just buy a big pile of presents and then you break off a chunk for the birthday, or do you kind of treat them as s- totally different things and, you know, you do Christmas and then you're like, "Now it's birthday time"?

9:56Yeah. Yeah. I kind of did go crazy with buying presents this year. I think I just, like, kind of start to get into this weird, like, trance, and I just keep buying because you just... At first I'm like, "She doesn't want anything. She doesn't need anything." And then I start looking at all the gift guides, and then I'm like, "Oh my God, she would love this. She'd love this." And I'm Jewish, and so we also do Hanukkah. And y- sometimes we do presents for Hanukkah, and sometimes we don't. And this year I just had so many gifts that I was like, "We're doing presents for Hanukkah this year."

10:25And just once in a while. And it was, you know, it's like stocking stuffer stuff where it's like- Mm... there's too much stuff to even put in her stocking, so like that kind of thing. Or things that I wasn't quite sure if she'd like, I gave her, you know, for Hanukkah. It felt like low stakes. Yeah. But yeah, I just kind of saved stuff for her birthday, and I even... I gave her the things that I thought would keep her occupied for Christmas. Mm-hmm. Because I was like- Ah... "Okay, we have all this time." It's this, like, dollhouse that she had to build herself, so you know.

10:51And then she really wanted- That's smart... like, a desk and a chair for her room, so we got that for her birthday too. But then, of course, she needs something- God bless her... to open from us, so. Sure. Yeah. That's funny. This year, I mean, for those who have not tuned in to the last episode, we had a medical emergency in my family, and we had to postpone the recording of this episode. And so on the good side of it, in some ways was like, well, I get to be shittier at buying stuff for people than normal. I have an excuse.

11:17But, you know, my husband, to his credit, did an amazing job picking up all the pieces and being... Like, he's just been such a trooper with the kids. I mean, the bar is very low, but things like helping my dad put up the Christmas tree. He's going over there today to help my mom, help put up a, like a, put together a toilet seat for my mom. So I was like, "I can't completely ignore it." And he had no ideas for me 'cause he was so spent, so I got him literally undershirts, underwear, socks, and tea. But he was so excited. He loved it.

11:48And I made a crossword puzzle of, like, clues that were all about him, and he had a great time. So, you know, I feel like men can be easy to shop for. Quinn, can you confirm or deny? Yeah. I think with a, with a modicum of self-awareness, men can admit that they're easy to shop for, which is to say, especially I literally was showing my kids, who are not even the ones to think about yet, though I guess they are, that book, Nobody Wants Your Shit.

12:12It's like decluttering before you die, and my daughter was like, "I'm 10." And I was like, "That's great, but your room is constantly full of stuff, so get ahead of it. You know, let's fucking think about it."Versus, "I don't want anything. I don't want anything. I really don't." Yeah. And I know I'm surrounded by toys, but that's only because I have very little joy otherwise, and I'm not allowed to have these at home. How do you and Dana go about the gift philosophy with the kids who are closer to the holidays? I know you try to give them fewer things. Yeah, we've been trying to do fewer things and more, like, experiences, even if it's, like, a coupon book for, you know, Nintendo Switch time or baking with Grandma. I don't know. What would they wanna do that I don't mind doing or would actually enjoy doing as well?

12:50So we gave my 10-year-old, like, "Hey, here's a, here's a little card," and I print off Canva, "We'll go to a baseball game of your choosing." Great. He was so excited. Here's my question about coupon books, though. Do they actually use them? They do. 'Cause it's a good idea- Great question... but, um, yeah. Do they actually, like- It's gotta be-... trade it in?... usable stuff, and I think to- Good girl... probably to an age... I have a 13-year-old. I would be curious what, if any, coupons would be something he was interested in using.

13:21We're kind of crazy about screen time, so maybe more of that, like, for him to call his girlfriend or, you know, talk to his friends about butts, but yeah, or just, you know, a day without me commenting on what they're doing. Letting him do, you know, what is it? Grocery store, what is that show where you can go shopping as much as you want at the grocery store, like that? Was it, like, Sweep? Oh. Grocery Store Sweep? Yeah. Super Market- Super Market Sweep. Super Market Sweep, but it's 7-Eleven. For seven minutes you can shop- Yeah, yeah... for as much as you want at Seven- Seven-Eleven.

13:48I truly think if it were coupons where, like, I left them alone, they would use them and run out of them quickly. I texted Claire last night, like, 8:30. We've always been crazy about putting our kids to bed early, but, like, he's 13, and his body's changing. He's got things to do, and we don't even have that much homework. But we've always been like, "Here's the deal. We get into bed every... earlier than everybody else. You can read as long as you want, as long as you stay in bed. I don't care if it's five hours or 20 minutes, like, your call. Just don't involve me after we're done.

14:15Don't get out of bed." And last night I texted her at w- like, 8:30 my time, and I was like, "Hey, bud, you gotta go to bed." He goes, "I'm not interested in going to bed yet." I was like, "I don't care. I don't care." [laughs] How do you want me to respond to that? Yeah. Like, "Go the fuck to bed." That feels like one of those moments where he'd be like, "I have a coupon where you can't talk to me for the rest of the night," and- Uh... probably worth its weight in gold, so.

14:38So funny to me, but of course it's the kind of thing where when someone else says something funny, it's funny at the time, but to you, you're like, "I fucking hate you." I was telling Quinn how my husband and I were saying how our 10-year-old son is being such a jerk lately and, like, very contrary to everything, and my husband was so over it. And they were in Arizona in Flagstaff, and at night, my husband looked up in the sky and said, "Wow, there's so many stars out tonight. Look at all the stars." And my son looked up and said, "I can only see five stars."

15:05And like, [laughs] and of course I'm so mad, but- It really is those little ones where you're just like, "Fuck you, man," you know? [laughs] Yeah. God. Oh, yeah, and then Steve said they walked by a restaurant, and Steve said, "Ooh, that food smells good." And James said, "I think it smells weird." So anyway, for some reason they're better, these stories are better, like, when you tell them compared to, like, when you experience them, so. Uh-huh.

15:27Anyway, Joy, I love the topic of siblings 'cause I have, uh, always... I think every parent is always wondering whether they had the right amount of kids, whether they had the right combination of kids, things like that. Talk a little bit about the writing you've done, the thinking you've done about the topic of only children and sort of, you know, where you come from with that and, you know, the kinds of things you've been asked, the kinds of thoughts you have.

15:51Just go off. Yeah. [laughs] Okay. Well, starting out, I never thought I would have an only child, like ever. It didn't even cross my mind. It just was not an option to me, and I grew up in the suburbs, where I don't think I knew a single only child all of growing up, at least that I knew of. So it just was like a foreign or, like, something that you see in the movies, you know? And I have two older sisters, and my mom had the three of us within three and a half years, so we are really close in age.

16:21So Quinn, when you talk about your kids really close in age, I'm like, yeah. Like, the highs are very high, and the lows are very low. Oh. That's what I always say, especially when you're all the same gender. Yeah. And also my brother's wife has three sisters. There's four of them. Same thing, like, four kids, four girls in five years, and her dad was an emergency room doctor, and she frequently- Oh my gosh... describes her dad pulling in the driveway and just refusing to come inside. [upbeat music] Hey, I have three kids. They eat so much. We try to eat real food. We try to cook when we can.

16:52We try not to waste too much 'cause it drives me nuts, and it's expensive, and also for obvious climate reasons, which is why the Mill Food Recycler changed our lives a couple years ago. It is an odorless, effortless, and fully automated food recycler. Look, we've had this thing front and center in our kitchen for, again, a couple years now it feels like, and it is just such a game changer. Way less waste, less smell, way less garbage, which by the way, saves you money. No leaky bags.

17:27Look, you got peels, bones, stalks, whatever leftovers, dump them in the Mill, and Mill dries and grinds them while you sleep. Again, it doesn't smell, which I don't understand. It's sleek. It's actually sexy. Here's a question people ask. How often do you empty it? Good question. It's every three weeks. I don't know, maybe, and there's a bunch of us. Plus, there's a little app where you can control it if you want and set a schedule, and it shows you how much food your family keeps out of landfills. A delight.

17:58Look, you can get $75 off right now when you go to our special partner site. I'm gonna read you the link, but you should know it's also in the show notes, and you can just click it. It is mill.com/lp/important-not-important. That is mill.com/lp/important-not-important.I couldn't remember that, so we put it in the show notes. It's right there for you. Check it out. Huge thanks to Mill for sponsoring our work and doing the right thing, and thanks to all of you listeners for supporting our partners.

18:36[upbeat music] 'Cause it was, like, four girls between 13 and 17, and he was like, "Why would I ever involve myself in that? It's so dark." Yeah. It's seriously wild. And I love sisterhood. Like, I love having sisters, and we were each other's, like, ride or die. Even my oldest sister and I get along really well, always have, and she was kinda like second mom to me. And we kinda grew up in, like, a chaotic childhood. My dad wasn't really around, and so we kind of really had to be there for each other. But my middle sister, Rachel, she would beat me up.

19:10We were just always adversaries. But we still, like, you know-- Like, we were, like, integral to each other. Mm-hmm. And we still are. Yeah, so we're really close. And then my mom got remarried when I was 12, and my stepdad brought two little brothers into my life. And- Wow... so they've been around. Like, they started dating when my brothers were, like, two and six, so they're my brothers. Oh, hell yeah. So then there's five of us siblings, if all of us were home, like, if they weren't at their mom's.

19:38So it's-- So I kind of grew up in a big family. Like, I have those experiences. And, you know, even now, if we go on vacation together with just my parents, my siblings, and our partners and our kids, that's, like, 20 people. It's just, it's a lot of people. And I always thought of an only-child family as, "That's probably really sad. That's probably really quiet. Ooh, you know, how sad for them." But then I had a baby, and it sucked. [chuckles] And, like, my pregnancy was okay. And, like, I was living in Colorado at the time, and in this, like, really crunchy environment, so I was, like, trying to have the baby at a birth center.

20:15I did all my prenatal care at a birth center. I took all the classes. I did all the stuff that you're supposed to do. I watched the documentary. I did the whole thing. And, you know, of course, I end up with a 40-hour labor and emergency C-section. Mm-hmm. So it's-- Like, my sisters and I call it the Moyle special. Moyle is my maiden name. Mm. Because all of us ended up with really long labors and emergency C-sections. So it's-- I don't know. It's the Moyle curse.

20:37But anyway, I had that, and it was just terrible, and it kind of started my journey into motherhood, like, on a really tough foot. And again, we were living in Colorado away from all of my family and close friends. And so my husband was home for two weeks, and then he went back to work, and then I was, like, alone with this baby. I had never spent time with babies. I'd never changed a diaper before my daughter. So I was just like, "I don't know what to do." It felt terrifying at the time. I had postpartum depression, didn't know it. I just thought this is what it is now to be a mom.

21:14So it was, like, a really rough first couple years. We did move back to LA, and that helped, and I eventually got on antidepressants. That helped a lot. I eventually went back to work. That helped. But, you know, it was like I was just getting my head above water when Zadie was turning two. That's when I got on antidepressants. And so it was like, "Okay, this is when people have another baby," usually, like, this two or three year mark. And I'm like, "I literally cannot even imagine putting myself through that again," you know?

21:42It felt like this huge gamble. Oh, wow. Okay, maybe I have the resources now. Maybe it would be different. Maybe I could schedule a C-section 'cause I just know that it's not gonna happen for me, and that would be a better recovery. You know, all these things. But it was like, and maybe not. Maybe I'll be just as depressed for two years, but I'll also have a toddler. Maybe my marriage won't sustain this, 'cause it already feels kinda shaky. Like, it was just-- It just felt like, we can't do this.

22:07And then I'd say when Zadie was four, it was kinda like maybe. Like, we were still talking about it. It was still on the table. And then the pandemic happened. You know, and I guess some people did take the pandemic as a sign to, like, "Hey, let-- This is as good as time as any to have another baby." But that was, like, not the way we took it at all. Um- No. No. And m- my husband works in-- Like, he's a project manager in construction, so construction did not shut down for a single fucking day in the pandemic. Oh. So it was like I was just home alone again with my child. Yeah.

22:37And so, yeah, it was like, this is-- Yeah, we don't really have a lot of parent help either, so that's a big part of it. Yeah, so anyway, around that time-- And we even started talking to a foster agency, 'cause we're like, "Maybe we could do foster to adopt," and had an interview with them, and then we're like, "What are we doing?" Oh. Yeah. This would break us. Like, having [chuckles] another kid would literally break us. We can't do it. And that was so hard to, like, really admit, you know, and just admit it and be like, "We can't do it."

23:06And if that means that we're, like, weaker than our friends or most of society who can manage to have multiple kids. You know, I had to, like, work through all those feelings of, like, inferiority and failure and shame and all [chuckles] this stuff. And I would say probably two or three years ago is when I think all three of us started to be like, "This is good." Like, the three of us. Yeah. This is what it's meant to be. This feels really good. This is who we are as a family. But it-- You know, that was when she was seven, so it took a long time- Yeah... to get there. Yeah. That is-- I mean, that makes a lot of sense.

23:40And first of all, what you might call inferiority, I might call wisdom and- Awareness... because, you know, I mean, that thing, people talk about having another kid, it's just like putting another quarter in the vending machine. Mm. 'Cause I had-- I was induced both times with hypertension. And so I-- After the second one, I was like, "Okay, I'm not good at this." I fumble the ball at the one-yard line each time, and it's not gonna get easier the older I get. So that certainly played.

24:05But I would hear all the time, "Are you gonna go for the girl?" And I would-- Like, and it would really pain me, 'cause I mean, we could talk more about this later, the fact that you're one of three sisters, you know, resonates with me, 'cause sisterhood has always eluded me in any, like, literal every capacity that you could imagine. But I'd be like, well, first of all, that's how you end up with, like, twin boys after you have two boys, you know? But- Seriously. Yeah... also, I can't do this.

24:27And my second kid was-- I enjoyed him more as a baby, but as a older kid, he was a lot more difficult. And I was like, what if you have a kid who requires even more care? Now, Quinn, I know that you guys didn't set out to have three kids necessarily. You know, one rolled out, you know, as aSpecial bonus but did you guys, I'm just curious, with three kids and you're not all of one sex, do you still hear-- has anyone ever said, "Do you wanna go for another?"

24:52Or does everyone see you and be like, "That's enough. We would never... These people have more." All the above. I mean, I spent most of the time Joy was talking hoping she would say, "I'm in the market for another one," so I could send one to her which is most days these days. They're great, however. Yeah, so I think-- Well, I don't think most people say that, mostly because, you know, we are usually, not that anyone cares, but, like, we've been pretty honest with our-- Like, we got hitched, and I was six years younger than my wife, and they were like, "Yeah, sorry you're having trouble.

25:26Let's see what the story is." And we went to do, you know, starter IVF, basically, like a Clomid shot and good luck, and they were like, "Well, that's not gonna work." And then we-- The short answer is we never figured out really why we had so many issues. It wasn't specifically my junk. It wasn't hers after they combined. You read into that however you want. It was a shit show, went downhill. You know, I feel like I got a dissertation in at least, you know, 2012 era IVF. But eventually, finally made one with our first one, like, last embryo available, and same thing, like, pregnancy was fine besides, you know, the IVF stuff where you've just gotta be on our back for a couple weeks to start with, and we'd lost a few along the way before that too.

26:10And then we had him, and it was so traumatic for everyone involved for a thousand reasons. And then I remember going... You, you have to go see your IVF doctor shortly after, and I don't recall why, but I remember him, and he's great. We owe him everything in the world, but he was like, "If you're gonna do another one, you should try now." And we were like, "There's a baby in the car seat behind us. We can't have a baby. We have a baby." And he was like, "Yeah, but look at the math, bud." It basically didn't work out the first time, like, despite the fact that there's a baby here, and we did want them to have a sibling.

26:45We both have siblings, for better or worse. Mine are more spread out. Hers are less so. She's got one. I've got three. And we were like, "Okay, fuck it. Sure. Why not try it?" And it took a little while, and we got it to work, and then as Claire said, the third one was our, our love child, which sure, why not? I grew up, or I was the second oldest of 32 cousins. I'm the second oldest in my family. Grew up, loved babies, taught kids, coached kids, all that stuff. I would've had 12 or so. I mean, keep that in perspective. I just told you I would FedEx you one of my children.

27:17So we met, got engaged, got married, was told we couldn't have a baby, and then sort of by science failed and then made some. And so we never really had the chance to have the conversation of like, "How many kids do you think we should have? Or should we do more?" It was just like, "If you're gonna do it, do it, because it's probably not gonna work." And then we had three kids in, you know, three and a half years. And same thing, you're in it. There was a lot of postpartum depression. There was a lot of sleep. There was a lot of-- I don't know any marriage or partnership or anything that could survive this chaos, and we're super privileged to have help.

27:46Not a ton, but we had help. Dana does always joke, we do have one in a freezer somewhere, I will say, and we've often thought about just, like, anonymously sending it to a friend or something. Do you know what it is, if it's a girl or a boy? She thinks she knows. I don't recall. Every year when I get the bill for the freezer storage, it doesn't say, but I do at least... You know, so that would've been from probably 20- probably like 2013, '14. I mean, it's frozen, so it's not, like, aging. It m- if we chose to f- freeze it, it must have passed most of the tests then, though they're much better and more specific now, and it's much easier on the embryo to take the tests now. So the point is, I don't know, other than it seems to, you know, possibly have a chance, but I don't know.

28:38She's like, "You can do whatever you want with it." She's like, "I'm not carrying that fucking thing." Yeah. She's gonna be 50 next year. She's like, "No, thank you." She's like, "I love our kids, but oh my God." So that's kind of our conversation. I don't know. It, it-- We're- Okay... lucky to have what we have, but oh my God. But no one's ever given you any kind of suggestion that you should have more kids? No one's ever said- Not after they experience my kids, no. Do get the, "What about a girl?" Oh, yeah.

29:01Even now from one of my cousins, and like, first of all, Steve's had a vasectomy, and I was asking him to have a v- vasectomy while I was pregnant with my second kid 'cause that's how much I hated being pregnant the second time. So I, I knew we would have two no matter what, and I, I guess I really thought I was having a girl the second time because I have a brother, and I felt so different, like mainly shitty with my second pregnancy compared to pretty good with my first one, that I felt pretty sure that I was gonna have a girl.

29:27And then the first one was a surprise, you know, the gender reveal, whatever you wanna call it, and the second one I did wanna find out 'cause I just wanted to find out. And I, like, had to get over myself for a while to know this is it, that this is only gonna be two boys. And there are a lot of great things about having two of the same, as you know with sisters, hand-me-downs, and I think, this is not across the board, but I do think when it's one of each, they don't have always the same likelihood of having the same interests necessarily, and that's, again, having two of the same is not a guarantee of that.

29:57So they do things that are great in terms of playing sports together, but they have very different personalities. And anyway- So Cl- Claire and I agree, and I fully both embody and agree that boys are dumb. We're so dumb. You can say that, like, we're simple to get gifts for. We're dumb. And you were texting me about that last night about how, I don't remember your exact wording, but basically not having a girl means the boy dumbness is less diluted in your family than it may be in mine. Yeah.

30:25Yeah Which depends on the day. Yeah. I don't know if that's accurate. Uh, that, that's what I think, Joy, is that I have this-- I have a lot of big theories. I know they're all probably wrong and maybe even offensive, but I have a theory is that only girl children especially are a- always extremely advanced and sophisticatedAnd that can be harmful to the mom especially, because I feel like I also hear about them being-- well, not both parents, they can be extra smart and mean you know, like a dinosaur that learned how to open a door.

30:53But I feel like it's always these only children girls who are, like, rolling sushi for fun, you know, or they're, like, gonna bake cookies with no oversight and things like that where I'm like, "My kids' idea of fun is never anything remotely helpful to me whatsoever." You know? Nothing that is promising for their future. And so again, that's like the other side- Short-term or long-term, it's detracting. Yeah. Like, downstairs right now, I was stepping over cushions.

31:19I mean, again, he- here's both sides of that. On the one hand, they were entertaining themselves. On the other hand, they got Nerf guns for Christmas. We put it off for a long time. You can't fight City Hall, and I was, like, stepping over furniture on the floor because they were having a Nerf gun fight down there, which is again, like, you're glad you're having a good time, probably will end in tears at some point, like, glorifying gun violence, making a mess for me.

31:43You know, we're all gonna have to clean this up. So, you know, depends on what you're-- pick your poison, you know? But for me, my husband is an only child, and I think that maybe-- Like, our first son was-- I had a hard time as well. The adjustment was not easy. Same as you, I didn't have a lot of experience around little kids. I kind of had a-- I don't know how to explain it. I think I thought that I could just do it myself, not myself, but I didn't need help because I had the resources, and I had the-- I don't know what.

32:13In retrospect, I would've asked for more help than I had. But in retrospect, [chuckles] our son was a pretty good kid. But I think my only child husband, the way he described his upbringing and the way he kinda ran his parents, basically, and, like, they had this dynamic where he was the center of the universe, basically, made me think, "I don't want our kid to necessarily have that." That's not how all only children are. That was just his experience.

32:38But it has been fascinating to watch him with my kids, 'cause at least with my brother, I knew-- And I can talk about my brothers and my relationship. I know what it's like to love someone and hate them at the same time, like, in, in a sibling way, and I bet you guys, like, have experienced that with your siblings too, where you're like, "Well, I didn't ask you to be here," you know? But also, "Since you're here, I feel very strongly that I must protect you against a lot of things." I don't feel that way about any of mine, but I'm so confident they feel that way about me.

33:06Um- Where are you again in the running order of your siblings? So my older brother's four and a half years older than I am. I think my mom had a pretty gnarly, hiccup-ic pregnancy in between us, a miscarriage, and then me, and then younger brother's 23 months younger than I am, and then to the relief of everyone everywhere, they had a girl four years after that. They went for the girl, and truly against all odds, but thank God they got one, 'cause the three of us are such idiots. Yeah.

33:32I mean, Steve, my husband, would watch the boys, like, hate each other and love each other within the span of seconds. Yeah. And he just could not understand this dynamic, whereas at least I was like, "I understand." Like, it's a roommate you didn't pick, and, you know, there's ups and downs to it. Now, so Joey, did you-- Do your sisters or anyone in your family, do they provide any pressure that you might feel about, you know, having had about having more than one kid, or does that not come from them at all?

33:58I'd say when Zadie was little, like, my mom would sometimes be like, "Oh, are you gonna have another one?" But again, there's five of us kids, so we're producing enough grandkids for them to, you know, be entertained. Oh, you. Yeah. And no, I mean, uh, my sisters and I are really close, and we're all incredibly honest about motherhood and how much it sucks a lot of the time, and so they were completely supportive. My one sister also only has an only daughter who's a year older than mine. Oh. And then-- Yeah. And then my sister who's on the East Coast has two boys, and then she has a girl. Okay.

34:31And she was actually pregnant with her daughter when she came out to help me for three days in that first week when my husband went back to work, and it was amazing just to have my sister there for a little bit. And she was pregnant, and she was, like, really just torn about it, I'd say. It, it was a surprise, and, you know, they had all those conversations and questions, "Are you gonna go for the girl?" 'cause they had two boys. [upbeat music] So we're on a big cleaning streak right now. As you can imagine, I'm very annoying about it to my children. But we're trying to dial it down to the essentials at home.

35:06So whether you're an appliance, a piece of furniture, or clothing, whatever, you gotta earn your spot. Everything's got a place. Everything has utility, which is hard with kids who constantly bring things into the house and all their stuff, and it's really hard when you're trying to feed them constantly. And there are various appliances that are advertised to you that can literally do one thing that honestly can't justify the counter space. But I'll tell you what does.

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36:55That's why we put the link right in the show notes. So anyways huge thanks to Mill for doing the right thing and trying to cut down on food waste, most of which comes from our homes for sponsoring our work and of course thanks to you listeners for always supporting our partners. [upbeat music] And, you know, she was just really overwhelmed. She's a physician's assistant. She w- like is very career driven. You know, their boys were really small. And I think she'd say even now, like, that her daughter is nine, like, that almost broke them to have the third. Mm. Obviously- Mm...

37:28she's incredibly grateful for her daughter's life and all of that, and, you know, she's irreplaceable and everybody loves her. So my sisters, like, completely understand, thankfully. Mm. And, you know, we're all cut from the same cloth in some ways. Yeah, like, we all need sleep. Like, we all do horribly on, like, little sleep, which is- Mm... a big part of being a parent in the early years, you know, all those things. But I will say, like, my sister that has the two boys, she kind of says the same thing that you guys do, that boys are so simple.

37:54Like, she's just like, "It's so easy with them." Like, of course, they are crazy and they do crazy things, but she's like, "Compared to having a daughter, it's so easy." And I'm like, "Yeah, I could see that." 'Cause, like, my daughter- [laughs] I mean, you said, like, only children who are girls are geniuses. Obviously, I think my daughter's brilliant. You know? I d- I don't know if her grades show that, but I think she's amazing. But yeah, it's complicated. Like, I think that the mother-daughter relationship is always gonna be complex no matter what.

38:22Even if you have an incredibly close relationship, which we do. I mean, she's only 10. Hopefully, that continues, but yeah, it's a lot. And, and I'm glad that I don't have to split that attention right now with another- Mm-hmm... kid, to be honest. Like, that part is good because it's hard. Like, just parenting is so hard. And, you know, and even my husband and I both have a ton of, not a ton, but we have serious hobbies. Like, I'm a fiction writer, and that takes up time, you know.

38:48He's a mountain biker and, like, goes on road rides and stuff. That, like, takes hours and hours. And so, like, those types of things, like, we can hold onto that more as parents because we have one child. It's not as big of a deal to just tell your spouse, like, "Hey, I'm gonna go do this. I'm gonna be gone for half a day or even a full day," and they have one kid to deal with versus- Mm... two or three or four. I, I have a friend who said she has three kids, and she said, "Two is not enough and three is too many." And I thought that was... I, 'cause I, again, I never wished we had a third kid.

39:15I, and I think with respect, I feel like everyone I know who has three kids, they lost their mind, like, after the third kid. And then some people are like, "Let's just go deeper and go for one more 'cause what's the point? We already lost everything, so let's just dig deeper." But yeah, it is really interesting 'cause my brother and I, we were playmates when we were little, and then we really had a combative, hard relationship for a long time, and I think that my mom being sick kinda brought some of that stuff back up to the surface.

39:42And I had a friend in college who was really close with her brothers. They would go party together, go to the movies together, and I would tell her, I was like, "You know that's pretty unusual, right? To be friends with your siblings." And I think sh- now she's married to someone, and I think she sees a little bit more that that is uncommon. But my son, my older son, his little brother has ADHD. He's got more of a, like, an explosive personality, and I remember him once saying that he disagreed with some of our parenting choices [laughs] with his little brother.

40:15And he basically, I think, was like, "I think you should punish him more and, you know, go off on him more." And I was like, "Well, I see that, you know, but you have to understand that doesn't work. You know, we can't"... As much as I would love to spank this kid, and believe me, hardly a week goes by where I don't have the hankerin' for a spankerin'. It doesn't, it's not gonna get you anywhere. And I told him, I was like, "I know what it's like to have a brother who sucks all the air out of the room, and it's hard." And I said, "I see you, and I hope that you know I see you, and you get yours, basically.

40:45Like, you get to stay up late. We have these talks." But on the other hand, I think that it's helped him. I think he'll be a cooler human in the future. I think he'll be a really good roommate someday. I know that sounds crazy, but he knows what it's like to live with someone crazy, for instance, and to roll with things when things get spicy. It certainly goes both ways. Quinn, did you fight a lot with your siblings, like physical fight, or have, like, big emotional battles with them that formulated you in any particular way? I don't know. I mean, I'm sure we did a lot.

41:14It became a little weirder when I was, like, 11 and a half, 12 'cause all of a sudden, I was six feet tall. Truly, like, all of a sudden. So I was as big as my brother, even though he was four and a half years older than me, and I was into the same sports. Like, it was all, it was a little strange. I mean, he was bigger and stronger. He, you know, he could and definitely did just beat the shit out of me, and 1,000% deserved. I think I've told this story, Claire, and I'll find a picture of it somewhere, how...

41:39Keep in mind, again, like, my mom had this, like, horrific miscarriages in between us, so I was, like, the miracle baby. And she kept a baby book. Claire, have I told you this one? She, you know, kept, like, a little journal baby book like moms used to do when they were expected to stay home and just keep a baby book. And she only got... It was like, "We're so lucky. This is so great," this and this, and then it's like you're watching, like, you know, Shackleton in Antarctica.

42:04There's, like, skipped pages and, like, stains and things like that, and then there's just one entry, 18 months old, that says, "Quinn has become a capital T Terror," and then there's never another entry, Claire. Yeah. I, that's great. There's never... We found it. My siblings were like, "Check, yeah, 100%." And I'm like, "Oh, that adds up. Yeah, that really adds up." That's so funny. So try to keep that in mind when I'm parenting- Oh... my children, but also in, in constantly saying sorry and thank you to her, she's the greatest, because I'm sure we were impossible. Again, my sister is...

42:32It's ridiculous how much better of a person and a human and a sibling and a child that she is and continues to be. So I'm sure that was a relief for them, but at the same time, like, still had to get us out of there, you know? It's like- Yeah... my, Jesus, my God. One thing that's crazy about my husband's family is that his dad was married before his mom, and they got divorced, and he kinda surrendered custody in relation to his two older daughters.

42:55So my husband actually has two half-sisters out there that he never knew.And so he had this very only child life, but technically had two sisters. And he, one time his dad, it was right before our wedding, and my mom was showing his dad around the golf club where our wedding reception would be very proudly, and his dad looked out the window and said thoughtfully, "I'm really glad I don't have daughters." Which was like really fucked up just a in general, and also he did have two daughters as well. Also, he had... That's fascinating. There's so many ways to dig into that one. Yeah, 100%.

43:27And yes, there's so many different things. One thing my mom said about siblings that is true but also not helpful in any way is that she told me once that whatever you have, 'cause I was pregnant with my second kid, and I remember at the time, I don't know if it was pregnancy hormones or maybe if he was just at a good phase, but I remember thinking, "There's no way I could like my second kid as much as I like my first kid." Like, that, I know that's a messed up thing to think, but that was something I thought.

43:53And it was true. You know what's funny? I enjoyed James as a baby so much more because I was a mom that time, you know? Mm-hmm. And so we had a lot more f- he was a really fun baby. But then he, something happened. She said, "Whatever you do, they're gonna be different." Mm-hmm. And that was true. I mean, and they're not like so crazy different, but they have extremely different personalities. So if Zadie is amazing and awesome, then her brother or sister would be probably a basic bitch flop and, you know, pale in comparison. So, you know- Mm-hmm... you did, you knew what was right.

44:23I'm glad that she has a lot of cousins, 'cause I think cousins are better than siblings because you get the fun without the bullshit. Yeah. Do they see each other often, the cousins? Well, one of my sisters lives in Philly, and so those three kids, like we see them once a year, which is- Mm-hmm... horrible. And they were supposed to be here this Christmas, and then they got the flu, and so we didn't get to see them. It was so sad. But my other sister lives about an hour from me.

44:46She lives over in Seal Beach, and she's the one with the o- only daughter, and she's one year older than Zadie. And so when she had Naomi and then was looking like she wasn't gonna have another either, it helped me make my decision and be like, okay, they two are going to be sister cousins. Mm-hmm. And we call them sister cousins. And you know, we saw each other a lot more maybe when they were younger. Now that they're both like pre-teens, it's, you know, not as easy, but they have that bond where it's...

45:13Especially we're always like, "You guys are gonna be able to bond over how crazy your moms are." Like- Mm-hmm... my sister and I are crazy in some of the same ways, like neurotic in some of the same ways, and that's a big part of having a sibling, at least for me, is being able to talk shit about your parents, you know? [laughs] And just be like, "Can you believe that," or whatever. And just like to have someone who like witnessed your life from the beginning- Mm-hmm... is just so powerful.

45:35And so for her to have Naomi as that, and then my best friend actually recently moved to my town, and she has three daughters, and they're like cousins to my daughter. And so like she has those people, you know? And that best friend I've known since I was a baby, so she's like a sister. She's like that person that has known me through every single iteration of myself, who knows my family deeply. So even if it's not a like blood sibling, I think you can have those types of like really deep relationships that can kinda do the same thing. It's not exactly the same, but you know.

46:05Yeah, but- Sometimes a lot better, to be, to be honest. Yeah. Yes. Since we were gonna speak, I'm in this new phase of life with my parents where I'm kind of caretaking for them. And I guess it's not a coincidence, but all of a sudden many of my friends are in the exact same place. I have a h- literally a handful of people who I've been checking in on 'cause their parents are real- newly in the hospital or out of the hospital or about to have surgery or just had surgery.

46:29And it is such a cliche, but so many families there is like one functional sibling and then one fuck around, fuck off, selfish sibling, maybe more. And my brother's not selfish or fuck around, but we have different caretaking personalities. I live cl- closer by. I have a car. He doesn't. I don't think he quite understand... Like when we, when my mom was in the hospital, we had an argument because I asked him if he was gonna come take a shift with her. And he said, "I, she has around the clock care 'cause she's in the hospital."

46:59And I said, "Well, the nurses are not sitting there watching her the whole time while she's trying to pull her IVs out, you know, to get up to use the bathroom when she hasn't walked in five days." And we had a, you know, n- tense moment. And so I have a friend who is an only child, and her mom's in the hospital. But anyway, all it is to say that sometimes I f- imagine being an only child means there's less bullshit to deal with. I can't tell if it's like a win to just do it on your own, you know, in executive decisions versus putting up with some useless sibling or selfish sibling or, you know, completely different- Yeah...

47:31per- perspective sibling. So yeah. Well, and you might have, if you're an only, maybe you've built that support system because you need it. You know? It's like maybe by that time you have the best friend who's gonna do that with you or whatever. I was gonna say, when that happened to your mom, I... Like something really similar happened to my dad- Mm... right at the beginning of COVID where like he already had so many health issues, was like a noncompliant diabetic, had just recently had his second leg amputated, was still living alone, could barely take care of himself. It was so hard. Had mental issues.

48:03And we didn't hear from him for a week, and so my sister and I were like, "What's going on? This is so unusual for him to not pick up his phone." He lived in the valley, like an hour from each of us, and this was like deep COVID. We weren't even wearing masks yet. Like we were wearing cloth masks. And I remember we're like, "Okay, let's go out there and just see." And this is how bad my dad was, was that he left his apartment door unlocked all the time in case he fell and needed the paramedics to come in. That's the situation he was already in. Mm.

48:32So we like went out there together, and I remember it was like at night. And my sister had a mask, like one of, an actual surgical mask that no one was wearing yet, and she's like, "Okay, here, in case," you know? And we didn't even put them on, but you know, we went in there, and my dad was in horrible shape. And we had to call an ambulance, and that was actually the last time I saw him in real life, which is so sad. Mm. But I'm so grateful that my sister was there, you know? And I was thinking about you and having to discover your mom alone, and it's just so hard. That's- Oh, thanks...

49:05yeah, so-But it's not guaranteed that you're gonna have a sibling that's gonna do stuff like that with you. I lucked out. Yeah. And, you know, during the five years- Yeah... that my dad was having a hard time, we just were able to take turns and do a lot together, so. The non-compliance is, it's like breathtaking how folks of- Yeah... a certain generation are just, like, willing to take us all down with them by not let- making it easy on us- Yeah... to take care of them. In so many ways. Yeah. Does your husband have siblings? Yes.

49:33He has a sister three years older than him. Okay. And she lives kind of nearby, like 20 minutes away, but, you know, she's a good example of they get along fine, and they- Mm-hmm... got along fine growing up, and we see each other on holidays, and she has two kids around Zadie's age, but we don't, like, hang out, you know? Yeah. I wouldn't say that they're close, and so that also kind of helped me make my decision, 'cause it's just not a guarantee.

49:56And they were a close family, like, they did a lot of stuff together growing up and, you know, his parents are still together and, yeah. I don't know. [laughs] And she's a wonderful person, but just- I feel like a lot of it is where we live. I don't live in Utah. I'm not a Mormon. But, like, where I live, it is like when someone has three or more kids, three is, three is the limit, I'd say, but when someone has more than three kids, it's kind of like shocking.

50:17There's a couple families at our school- Really... of four, five kids, and you're like, "Whoa," you know, especially if they both work. And one of my best friends growing up was an only child, so it wasn't unusual, but I feel like it's not as commented upon. But also, I'm not a mom with an only child. Do you sense that? Do you feel like people have a different attitude towards it now than they did when we were younger, or do you feel like you've still got a lot of comments from the peanut gallery about choosing to just have one?

50:41I think it depends on where you live. Like, when Zadie was a toddler, we lived in Highland Park in LA, and everyone in the play group had only children except for one lady, so. Mm. And most of us have stayed with only one child, and that was common because they were all, you know, working in creative professions. They were all older. I was the youngest by far, and I was 31. Like, youngest by far- Wow... in that play group. So that was just a lot more common out there.

51:05And now I live in a suburb where, you know, I don't know a single family with an only child, and it's, we're kind of an anomaly, but people don't ask because it's rude. [laughs] So, like what, I had a friend, I had one friend, like we were going to a church for a while, and we were hanging out, like, kind of regularly for a year, and then I remember we were at a park near my house, and we were watching our kids play, and she asked in this way that I could tell she was nervous to ask and that she'd been wondering for a long time.

51:33And she was like, "Why don't you have any more? Can you not? Can you..." You know. Wow. 'Cause I think she had two boys, and she really wanted to have another, and she was struggling. Mm. So I think she was just, like, wondering, 'cause that's why I think sometimes people don't ask, because they don't know if it's, like, a fertility issue. Like maybe we- Mm... wanted another one and we never could, or maybe we had a child who died. Nobody really knows. Mm. I think there's, like, mystery around it sometimes. Yeah.

51:56Usually people ask me once I've known them for a year or two, and it's usually, like, curiosity less than judgment, you know? Like they'll just be like- Mm... "Oh, did you always know you wanted an only?" Or, you know, stuff- Wow... like that. But it's more like when you, like, I feel the judgment from people I don't know when they're, you know, not talking to me. I'll say, actually, like, a couple episodes ago on this podcast, the guest said something about, "Oh, I would never take, like, parenting advice from someone with an only child." Mm. I was like, "Well,"

52:26and that's common. You hear that a lot. And if I had multiple kids, I'd probably feel the exact same way. I'd probably feel like- Well... you're only doing half of my job. You have no idea what it's like. Like, my sister with three kids says, "One is one, two is 10, and three is a million." 'Cause it's just- Oh, wow... exponential, you know? And so I'm like, I get it, but also, like, it feels really invalidating, obviously. Yeah. To- totally. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah.

52:48I'm just, I, that's the kind of thing that you don't even think of, and I immediately jump to, like, it's not that we're doing more, but see, there's no contest. Like, it's all bullshit. It's not like you are- Right... you know, raising fewer, like you have less going on. Like, you just have, the gas expands to meet the amount of the- Exactly... what is it? Container? The, I don't know. Sure. But yeah. What about a kid with special needs, you know? If you- Yeah... have a family with kids with special needs, and like, I'm not gonna take advice from someone with kids who don't have special... You can do this forever.

53:14But also, like your, I, I mean, you have a very good friend who's got one kid, and he's a few years older than yours, and I remember during COVID he was like, "I am so," he's very close with our kids and our family, he's like, "I'm so thankful your kids have each other to keep each other busy." He's like, "'Cause there hasn't been a second of a minute of an hour of the day for the past two years where I am not directly responsible for entertaining my child," basically. Yeah. 'Cause what else- Yeah...

53:43are they gonna do? And that is- Yeah... fucking hard. Like, you're- It was so brutal. Oh my God. Yeah. But, but you have to talk about that openly as well, you know? It's like- Yeah. Yeah... you gotta be on- Yeah... all the time. Holy shit. Yeah. When COVID started, I remember sitting around a conference table, like, when they were telling us, "Hey, you guys are gonna take all your stuff. You're gonna go home, and you're not gonna come back for two weeks. Ha ha." You know? Ha ha, yeah. And I remember just being- Right... terrified. I was terrified. My daughter- For about two weeks... had just turned four.

54:08She's, you know, what you'd call a spicy child. She's just crazy. Spirited. She has a ton of energy. Oh, wow. A ton of demands, you know. And it was like, yeah, I was terrified. With two weeks, thinking that I was gonna have two weeks with just her and me, I was like, "I don't know if I'll survive." You know, thank God she was in a daycare that, like, wi- took her back at six weeks, after six weeks, because they had a lot of emergency workers' kids there, and I was like, "Please will you take her back?"

54:33They're like, "Oh, yeah." I was like, "Wait, could I have done this six weeks ago probably?" Can I ask that question? So it's kind of like intensive parenting in a different way. Like, obviously having- Yeah... multiples is another- Oh... type of intensive parenting, but, like, it's so much. And, you know- Yeah... yeah, like a kid will take up all the air in the room if they can. Mm-hmm. And you know how you said- Right... like your husband was kind of, like, the center of his parents' universe or felt like he, like, it's like a constant battle to push against that because- Yeah...

55:01you know, she's the only kid in the house, so of course we're gonna kind of revolve things around her, and then there's this constant, oh shit, like it's gone too much the other way, and now we have to be like, "No, we gotta pull it back," and say, "Life isn't just about you."And sometimes we have to kind of be dicks to her because we're like, "Listen, you can't just make that sound right now. That's so annoying, and if you had siblings you would have someone saying shut up," you know? And we don't say shut up to her, but we're like, "Okay, you gotta stop making that sound."

55:28The number of times a day I say to my children, "I'm gonna need you to not make that face or not make that sound," and they're like, "I'm not..." And I'm like, "Everyone knows you are. I don't know what to tell you, but stop." Joy- Yeah. Yeah... I have told my older son to hit his younger brother, and he refuses. Yeah. 'Cause sometimes he'll, he'll this, this, like, martyr thing. He'll be like, "James always hits me." And I'm like, "Well, hit him back." And he's like, "No."

55:50And I get so mad 'cause I'm like, "You would solve so many problems for us and the world if you just showed him his place in the world." So anyway, they don't do what you always want them to do just by being there. Yeah. But even, like, sharing resources, like, she just assumes everything's for her. You know? Mm. If you get a box of Popsicles, when I was a kid, there's six Popsicles in the box, there was three of us, you would see your sister eating a Popsicle and be like, "Is that your first one or your second one?" You know?

56:13[laughs] Oh, instantly. It was, like, so intense. And, and so no trust. None, no trust whatsoever. My daughter would just eat all six of them and she wouldn't even think that there's two other people in the house that- Mm-hmm... might want one, [laughs] you know? Or watching TV, you know? Mm-hmm. She just owns the TV. And sometimes we're like- Yeah... "No, you..." Like, we watch the Tour de France every summer, and she's just appalled that we are taking over the TV, you know?

56:32And we're like, "If you had siblings, you would only get to watch what you want, like, every three times." Like [laughs] that's kind of- Yeah... you know how it was for me. James would rather have less if he knew, like, that Paul, if, like he would, I don't know how to explain it, but it's like he will never be that, uh, that happy if he knows it's possible that Paul had possibly more than him. You know, he could have a million dollars, but if Paul had a million and one dollars it'd be, like, worse than nothing to him, basically. Like, his sense of equity is more important than his own pleasure. Yeah.

57:02It is, I will say the one thing that St- my husband, I feel like I had to, that he was an only child about, and he's gotten better about it, but he would get so butthurt if he ever felt like he was being un- if he was being interrupted or not listened to. And in my opinion, sometimes if he's listening, sorry sweetie, he would tell an anecdote and then take a moment to, I don't know, breathe or think or take a drink, and I would assume he was done speaking, and I would start speaking.

57:30And he would be like, "I'm not done," and get, like, mad about it. And I think that I was like, that's your only child speaking, where you never have to get in there on it. Oh, yeah. No. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's something my husband- That's a real luxury... it drives him crazy when we're with my family, 'cause he's like, "You guys just all yell over each other." I'm like, "Yeah, that's how it is in a big family." Survival of the fittest. Like- That's it. But Zadie does do that, where she'll be like, "You interrupted me." We're like, "You were pausing for 20 seconds." [laughs] Like, "We're, this is like- Yeah It's past an hour...

57:54I've said this to her so many times. Yeah. [laughs] I'm like, "This is how conversation works. You just gotta wait for an opening- Yeah... and then you jump in. That's how it works, so- Yeah... figure it out. And you're 10. Like, we're not gonna- What were you even saying that was so good to begin with? [laughs] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, this is really good to remember, I think, like, for me to remember the things I say that, like, even when you're complaining about h- the number of kids you have or the kind of family you have, that it might come off as insulting or insensitive to someone else.

58:23And it's always good to remember that everyone's kids are a pain in the ass in their own way, even if it seems like, again, a perfect daughter who is, knows how to parallel park at eight years old and is shoveling the walk, you know, unasked for and all of those things, like Quinn's kids do, obviously. Super helpful. I had a question for you- So useful... that's sort of related to siblings, but, like, from your own experience, and I don't know if you wanna go into this too deep, but, like, when it comes to blending families, how do you think you guys made out?

58:50Do you think your, your parents did it pretty well? Or, like, when you got your brothers, like, would you give advice to anyone on blending families based on your experiences? I was, like, studying psychology in undergrad, and I remember reading about blending families and I was like, oh, my parents did literally everything wrong. Th- they did everything you were not supposed to do. [laughs] So- Like what? Yeah. They changed everything. Like, we moved houses, moved schools, moved churches, which was a big part of our life at the time, and you're supposed to kinda try to keep things the same as much as possible.

59:18So I was just, like, everything was ripped away, and that made it really hard. But yeah, I don't know. I think it was really chaotic. [laughs] But I don't know. My sister was 15, I was 12, the other one was somewhere in between there. There was, like, a lot of puberty happening. There was just- Mm-hmm... a lot of chaos. But, you know, I don't know. It all worked out. Like, I think they treated us, I think maybe this is something good, that they treated us like a family right away, where it was like, "It's the five of you." It's not like the three sisters and the two brothers.

59:52It's like when we're all together, you know, like, my stepdad would discipline us, and as much as I hated it at the time, I think it did help us blend more because it wasn't like, oh, he's only dealing with his sons and my mom's only dealing with the girls. So that, I think that helped. And honestly, we went on some trips together, which I think also helped bond us. Mm-hmm. You know? Like, we went to Disney World, and that was a total shit show, but, you know, I still remember it. [laughs] I don't know. Yeah. It, I think, I don't know. And maybe just letting us, like, kinda duke it out too as kids.

1:00:29Like- Mm-hmm... they didn't really step in a lot. I just remember fighting with my brothers, and I remember really relishing getting to be an older sibling for once and, like, getting to boss- Ooh... somebody around and- Mm. You know... but yeah. Yeah. I think it's just time, 'cause now they've been married- Oh... for 30 years, which is nuts. Wow. And- That's, um- Like, Zadie will sometimes say, "Oh, well, but I'm not, like, blood related to Uncle Chris and Uncle Tim." I'm like, "What? Who cares? They're my brothers," you know? [laughs] And- Mm...

1:00:54like, she thinks, but to me I'm like, they're just as part of our family. I don't know. Yeah. I'd say time. That's probably- Yeah... the biggest thing. I'm sure there's no way to make it easy. It's like one of those things, like child rearing, you know, or taking care of older parents, where you can read all the books and they tell you this and that, but that won't make it, you know, if the people involved haven't read the book and agreed to go along with the book, like, it's all useless, you know?

1:01:15So I think that's really interesting. Did you, Quinn, did we talk about this? Do you, do your kids fight physically ever? Do they ever get, you know, s-Yeah, I'm trying to remember if we talked about this. It was hard for my wife to understand, 'cause her only sibling is a boy, a whole different thing. But m- m- mine's boy, girl, boy, and I've had to really help her, first of all, not be triggered by, and then be okay with, and then become comfortable with, and then even sort of endorse, which we're still working on, the boys beating the shit out of each other in a really... If you look at it closely and you do it more than once, understand, like, it is their love language.

1:01:57It is, I would say, three out of 10 times, maybe two out of 10 times, there's some real antagonism towards the end. Mm. But most of the time it's just them getting their shit out, and in a positive way, and there's usually laughing or things, and you're just like, "Wow, he just got thrown down some fucking stairs, look at that." [laughs] But they're still laughing, and you're like, "But they're not asking me questions, so that's a win." Uh-huh. And I've tried to- Yeah.

1:02:19She was like, "Holy shit," which I think is understandable, unless you, like, really grow up in it/around it and were part of it. So I'm sure there will be more times where it goes south, but w- yeah, we try to just, I don't know, encourage... A- again, it's really their love language, and- Mm... they have a couple other things in common, sports, things like that. But, you know, my older kid can sometimes go, "He doesn't get baseball," and I'm like, "You're fucking six seconds older than he is.

1:02:47Like, nice try, buddy." But they get a- I don't know. I don't know. It's funny. I definitely think it was probably more brutal for my brothers and I. Just ogres. Mm. Fucking ogres. I think that siblings are nicer to each other now. Like, the families that I know, I'm like, "These siblings are so nice to each other," compared to what my siblings and I were, or what my friends' siblings and they were. Like, I grew up with three other girls, like three sisters and three sisters, we grew up together, and one of them would drag her sisters down the hall by their hair. Like, my sisters and I fought physically.

1:03:16I remember one house- Yeah... we lived in, there were bar stools, and we'd hold the stool part to our stomach and just hit each other with the stool. [laughs] Whoa, whoa. Like, I- Whoa... my sister would hit me. Like, I... Yeah. And I remember one time fighting with my brother, my stepbrother, and I don't know, we hadn't been steps for that long, and we fought, and he had a gash on his knee, and accused me of it, and my mom had us stand with our nails out, and she's like, "Well, Tim, your nails are all jagged, so you probably just did that to yourself in the heat of the fight.

1:03:42Oh, well," you know? [laughs] Just moved on. Fucking '80s, man. And he... Yeah. Yeah. I love forensic. These kids now, they talk about it. They always talk about that with the NBA now, how, like, guys get fouled for breathing on each other. And you're like, in the '80s- Mm... or '90s, I mean, what did they call the Blazers? Like, the Jailbreakers or... I mean, it was just, like, abuse. Different rules. Yeah. Different set of rules. No, you could just punch someone- Different rules... in the face and get, like, a mild foul. No, it, it is...

1:04:03My brother and I would fight until he got to be my size and older, but I, I still remember, and it was this weird sibling feeling where we were in the school parking lot and he was gonna walk home, but we were waiting for my mom to pick us up, and there were, like, big storm clouds raging, coming, and he... I was, like, mad at him for doing his own thing, but also scared he was gonna get hurt, and we were fighting so bad I slapped him with an open palm, like, in the school parking lot, and I...

1:04:29It was that feeling of terror, you know? And, like, instant regret and fe- anyway. And my kids don't fight like that. And I, again, the younger one, he deserves it sometimes, and he just doesn't do it. And my older son, I think he likes being a mellow guy. I think he likes having the moral upper hand. But, you know, it always does give me life when I hear sisters, stories about sisters being assholes to each other, 'cause, again, that's just, like, the life I don't know.

1:04:54So my friend told me that her daughters will yank each other's ponytails, and I'm like, "Thank you for telling me that. That made me feel better," 'cause, like, they're, you know... I remember, like, knees on the chest, spitting in the face kind of things like that. Oh, yeah. So, yeah. We have more. See, aren't you sad that you're not experiencing this? Zadie could be... Imagine she had a brother come along and then he ruined her life, 'cause I always do think a little brother will ruin a sister's life, and, you know, she wouldn't be the genius that she is with her beautiful Parisian birthday parties, you know?

1:05:25Yeah. No, I know. She's missing out, but, you know, I, I don't know. Then she would've had a mom who's dead in a ditch somewhere, so- Yeah... oh, well. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And who's, like, mad at her, or just more angry at her life. And your pelvic floor is probably in much better shape, you know, just with just hers, so. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I will say, though, like, I'm ki- you know, I hate to identify this way, but I'm kind of a highly sensitive person.

1:05:47Like, noise, all those things I'm so sensitive to, and I'm so grateful to have one child in that way, because if I'm driving her and her friend somewhere, I seriously feel like I'm gonna jump out of the car while it's moving, because- Yeah... it's just so loud. Even though they're not fighting, they're having fun. Mm. They're giggling maniacally, and I'm like, it's making me wanna jump out of my skin. So- Yes... that is, you know, that's what you have to get used to when you have siblings. Yeah. I know my sisters and I fought all the time, and yeah, even if you're not fighting, you're making noise. Yeah.

1:06:17And so, you know, as much as that sounds like... I don't know, I hate to admit it, but yeah, that just shows, like, a weakness. No, accurate and... No, stop saying this. Be, say the, your self-knowledge and your accuracy. Self-knowledge. Sure. [laughs] And, yeah. No, I have... I took my, our two boys are friends with another set of brothers, which is wonderful, and also, at the same time, we were driving them home from the movies, and they were all being so stupid.

1:06:41Oh, it was, like, Dog Man movie, so they're all going, "Chicken Jockey," or whatever the fuck it wa- Is that the Dog Man movie? It doesn't matter. And I- It doesn't ma- it's all fucking terrible. Yeah, it doesn't matter. It doesn't- But I was like, I want to drive home as fast as I possibly can to get them out of the car, but I can't. Or just, like, close your eyes and let go of the wheel. And again, they're, like, having a good time, but yeah. Yeah. You follow that instinct. You are right. They don't get quieter the more of them there are. So yeah, they don't collaborate. I love this conversation.

1:07:06Siblings are always something that people think they know something about, and they don't, and it's deeply personal, and siblings don't always guarantee happiness or friendship or, you know, anything easy on the parents. And then I think we go deeper, and when the, there's so many siblings, then you start, I feel like once you get above a certain number of siblings, I always feel like the oldest siblings are getting abused in some way, 'cause they end up-raising the kids and, like, giving their chil- Oh, yeah...

1:07:30their, like, profits taken from them. So, you know, I think that you are- Then you have this feeling of, in my family, it was like, do I matter? There's five of us. Would anyone notice if I'm not there? You know? So- Yeah... obviously my daughter- Yeah... you feel that way. Joy, can you tell people where m- they can find your writing or your work, anything like that? 'Cause I know you've covered this topic before, and there's people out there who have one kid, or thinking about how many kids to have, or, you know, just wanna learn more about you. Where can they find you? Yeah.

1:07:54I'm on Substack. I have a Substack called Midweek Joy, and it's just joynataniathompson.substack? I don't know. But yeah, you can find me there, Midweek Joy, and I have written about it before. I'd love to write about it more if people want me to. I know that I'm desperate to hear from other people who have only, so hopefully this, you know, helped someone feel a little less alone. Yeah. Well, and again, I think it helps people be a little bit more careful about the things they, you know, just the silly opinions they toss off about assuming, you know, when it comes to how many kids parents choose to have or can have.

1:08:29And I also wanted to say, I think that when parents are... don't have help nearby, I'm never surprised whenever I hear someone doesn't have folks nearby to help watch, that they stuck with one. I'm like, that's very, again, s- like, self-aware- Mm-hmm... intelligent- Mm-hmm... strategic. Quinn, any thoughts about kids, siblings, before we sign off for today? No. You know, the only thing I could think of, back when we were just... No, not to start a whole new thing, but just to go back to, you know, sitting at the playground and people asking you, and even with the best of intentions or, or they think they're being helpful, i- is when you're not pregnant yet or struggling to be pregnant, and people say the thing, like, "Ah, have a glass of wine and f- relax."

1:09:05And you're just like, "Motherfucker." And again, sometimes they're just dicks, just, and sometimes it's well-intentioned, but it is. It's, man, just... There's a great, what is, like, the stoic quote? Like, basically, like, you could just choose to not have an opinion on this specific thing. You could just not. Mm-hmm. Which I tell- Yeah... my boys all the time, because they're the, like, the dumbest, most, like, unearned, confident white guys, you know? I have this... Claire, did I tell you the plane story? I think I, I'll finish with this. How we were sitting on...

1:09:33And they're smart kids, they're curious kids, they ask big questions, they care, they're thoughtful, they're so fucking dumb. And we were sitting on a plane, and one of my kids, the oldest one, looks back, and he's looking out the window, and we're getting ready to take off. And straight-faced, m- more confidence than y- y- any you have ever had about anything in your life that the sky is blue, he goes, "They don't even need that rudder." And I said, and I genuinely was like, "What did you... What?" He goes, "They don't even need that rudder. Like, why is it... It's just a waste." And I was fighting so many wolves inside my head to just be like, "You're the dumbest fucking person alive. I don't care how old you are- Uh-huh... or how long you've been on this planet." Yeah.

1:10:13Slash, like, "You're right, we should... Let's go tell the pilot, and let's go tell all the engineers- Yeah... who understand." Like, and you're just like, "Ah, God damn it. This is the problem. This is the whole... You people are the fucking problem." They don't even need that rudder. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Sure. What else do you believe? Yeah. You... Jesus. I mean, it's like, this is a different guy. I don't mean to... I'm not trying to one-up you, but I was watching the kids play basketball, and I told my son, my older son, I was like, "One of, one of the kids on your team needs to use his body more when he plays."

1:10:40And my younger son said, "You don't use your body when you play basketball." And I went off on him, 'cause the way he mansplained basketball to me, and I'm not, like, a basketball genius, but I did grow up watching Michael Jordan and the Bulls play. And the next day, my husband saw him, this younger kid, play basketball. He's like, "FYI, James doesn't know how to play basketball at all. It was clear by watching him, he doesn't understand shit." So- Dude, you're fucking terrible at it, bud... don't listen to him. I don't know what to tell you. Yeah.

1:11:06I remember when we walked out of Barbie, and my youngest son looked at my daughter and goes, "Let me tell you what it was really about." And I was like, "Are you fucking kidding me? That was the point of the movie." Ugh. "Jesus Christ." Yeah. "Go back in and watch it again." God, they're so- Ugh. Okay. I will say, though, that the confidence thing might just be this generation and not gendered, because Zadie just started playing basketball. She had her first game ever on Saturday.

1:11:27Driving home, she's like, "Well, I think I'm gonna go pro." She... So I believe it. I- See, I, I believe her... knowing everything I know about her. It's not gonna put- Yeah... a bunch of people in fucking danger. That's fine. Yeah. Jesus. No, I support this. I will go to her games when she is pro. Yeah, I'm in. Joy, thank you for coming, and thank you for reaching out and proposing this chat. This was fun. We could talk about this forever. So much fun. I hope you guys have a gentle...

1:11:48Now that I know what year it is, unfortunately, I hope 2026 is not [laughs] increasingly painful as it is trending, but, you know, high hopes. [upbeat music] That's it for this week. You're gonna make it. You're doing great. Or you're just doing it. Or just you, period. Just stop right there. But for more, you can hit subscribe right in your podcast player of choice. Please share our show with another parent in your life or anyone who might get a kick out of listening to what the hell we're going through.

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