S.7 Ep.8: Rethinking Black Locust

S7 E8 - Black Locust

[Greg Edge]

Welcome to SilviCast, the podcast about all things silviculture. I'm Greg Edge, retired silviculturist with the Wisconsin DNR Division of Forestry.

[Brad Hutnik]

And I'm Brad Hutnik, a Wisconsin DNR silviculturist still working until BMP stands for Bourbon Management Practices. And we're your hosts for today's show. How do you do Gregor, ready to go?

[Greg Edge]

Oh yeah, come on in Brad. I'll be ready in a couple of minutes. Have a seat here in the living room.

[Brad Hutnik]

Ooh, Casa Edge. Is that a patchouli diffuser? I've never seen one made out of a Birkenstock before.

[Greg Edge]

Uh, hey, don't touch my stuff.

[Brad Hutnik]

All right. All right. Right.

[Greg Edge]

And anyway, I want you to come in the backyard here. You got to check out the new stonework I put in last summer.

[Brad Hutnik]

Giddy up. Hey, what are you guys doing here? Hey, is this some kind of surprise party? Let's see.

Susan, Tom, Divish, Eli, Colleen, Heather, Carmen, Corey. Wow. Everyone is here.

[Greg Edge]

Well, it's kind of a surprise, Brad. We're all your friends, right?

[Brad Hutnik]

Sure. Sure. Wait, wait, what?

[Greg Edge]

Well, and as your friends, uh, we're worried about some of the choices you've been making recently.

[Brad Hutnik]

What? Wait, what?

[Greg Edge]

Brad, Divish found this in your van the other day. You recognize it?

[Brad Hutnik]

Yeah. Yeah.

Black locust biology, culture, and utilization. That's a classic. It's a conference proceedings focused on resurrecting black locust here in the U S.

You know, black locust is a good tree. It's just gotten a bad rap.

[Greg Edge]

Oh boy. Uh, Brad, we're worried about you. This is how it starts. First, you're a little curious.

Then you get the charismatic pitch. Next thing you know, you'll be paranoid about locust borer coming for all your trees.

[Brad Hutnik]

Wait, wait, wait. Have you seen a locust borer here?

[Greg Edge]

Oh, it's worse than I thought.

[Brad Hutnik]

Well, lucky for me this week on Silvicast, we get to dig into this. Our guest this week is Dr. Zsolt Keseru, a senior scientist, experimental station manager, and head of the department of plantation forestry at the university of Sopron in Sopron, Hungary. Dr. Keseru is a noted expert on the silviculture of black locust. You know, it's not a perfect tree, but it's not the devil either, Gregor.

[Greg Edge]

This isn't working. Hey, Carmen, get the electrodes.

*electric buzzing sound*

Thank you to our season sponsors, family forest carbon program and Nelson paint company.

You make the SilviCast world go round.

[Brad Hutnik]

Dr. Zsolt Keseru, welcome to SilviCast. Now I'm guessing most of our listeners haven't heard of you because you're kind of outside of the sphere of the people that normally listen to SilviCast. So for those not familiar with you, please tell us who you are, where you are and what you do.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Thank you. My name is Zsolt Keseru. I am a senior research fellow at the Hungarian forest research institute.

Institute of the University of Sopron. I work at the Puspeklodány Experimental Station and Arboretum. Puspeklodány is a small town that can be found in the eastern part of Hungary.

I have been leading the department of plantation forestry since 2016. And since 2024, I have also been serving as the director of the Puspeklodány Experimental Station and Arboretum. My primary research fields include the development of growing technologies for plantation tree species, besides agroforestry research and afforestation challenges on marginal sites.

[Brad Hutnik]

I noticed in getting ready for this episode that you've done a lot of work with black locust in the past.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yeah. I think we can say that the black locust in Hungary can be considered as a based tree species regarding the plantation forestry. And the black locust, I can say that the most important and prominent tree species in Hungary, because it's covered more than almost half a million hectares of the total forested area.

[Brad Hutnik]

Greg, I don't know about you, but that's kind of wild to me because like when we see black locust in Wisconsin or wherever I've been, I'm not sure people go, oh, let's plant some more of that.

[Greg Edge]

Yeah. Brad and I have had an argument about black locust a little bit. In Wisconsin, we're outside of the natural range of black locust, but people have planted it here for years for fence posts or erosion control.

And so many times people are, you know, trying to get rid of black locust here. So Brad's fascinated by the species. So we thought we should talk to you today to find out how people actually use this species.

So, yes.

[Brad Hutnik]

And I find it fascinating that when we want to talk about a species that's native to the United States and how it's utilized, we're actually talking to someone in Hungary who's done a lot more work with it. So it's a really interesting world.

[Greg Edge]

A little ironic. So I think, Brad, you have some questions right up front so we can kind of get the ball rolling.

[Brad Hutnik]

Yeah. And maybe this one, you can tell me if this is right or wrong. True or false, black locust was the first tree species introduced from North America to Europe at the beginning of the 17th century.

[Zsolt Keseru]

That's exactly. We can say that Jean Robin, a French botanist, brought the black locust to Europe in 1601, so at the beginning in the 17th century. Yeah.

And initially people grew it as an exotic ornamental tree. Black locust is one of the most important fast-growing, stemmed-forming tree species in Hungary, and its importance is increasing in many countries today. The species itself is indigenous to the eastern and central part of the United States, between latitudes 43 degrees and 35 degrees north.

I can say that its wood material can be used for a lot of different purposes. It can be used for wood production, honey production, ornamental purposes. And lucky that there is a low incidence of pests and diseases in Hungary.

[Greg Edge]

It was first brought over, you said, as an ornamental tree, but then they started to use it for all these other purposes.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yeah. In Hungary, while present all over the country, its largest contiguous populations are found in regions with loose sandy soils. So the black locust in Hungary requires warm, loose, sandy soils.

In Hungary, there are two different main growing regions of black locust. The sand ridges of the Great Hungarian Plain and the Transdanubian Hills. The most extensive black locust forests are located in the Kiskunság and Nyírség regions.

Kiskunság can be found between two big rivers, Danube and the Tisza rivers, in the middle part of Hungary, and the Nyírség region can be found in the northeastern part, close to Ukraine and Romania. So in the Great Hungarian Plain, it was massively planted during the 18th and 19th centuries, primarily to stabilize shifting wind-blown sand dunes, soil protection purposes.

[Greg Edge]

Erosion control. Yeah. That's interesting that you planted mainly on those loose sandy soils.

[Brad Hutnik]

You know, what's interesting in doing a little research on this, a lot of planting, like say here in Wisconsin, was done during the, starting in the 1930s as a response to that same thing, like erosion control efforts. And so it was kind of introduced based on evidence of success in Hungary, where black locust was used for that. So it's another place where we were looking to Hungary for guidance on black locust.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yes. As I mentioned earlier, black locust has played a role of great importance in the forest management for more than 300 years. Today, it's covering almost half a million hectares of the total forested land and providing about 20% of the annual timber output of the country.

[Greg Edge]

Wow.

[Zsolt Keseru]

In Hungary, in the lowlands characterized with forest-cap climate type, annual precipitation is not more than 500 millimeters. Most of which is outside the growing season. Thus, the drought is a frequent phenomenon in the summer period, coupled with very high atmospheric temperatures.

And due to these facts, about 40% of the black locusts in Hungary grow under marginal site conditions.

[Brad Hutnik]

So it's interesting. So you're growing it on maybe not the best sites. You know, you're growing it on those marginal sites, you're growing it in sands, which is similar to conditions we might see here in parts of the United States and in other areas.

But you guys are still working with quality in those sites, right? So it sounds like you guys have done a lot of work to improve the varieties that you have or the genetics that you're working with, and so you've identified different cultivars and have done a lot more work on that. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about that.

[Zsolt Keseru]

I can say that in Hungary, the black locust selection programs, we can say about two different selection programs. The first one was implemented in the 1960s, was led by Béla Keresztési. He was an academician.

I think the biggest black locust researcher in Hungary. So the first selection program were in the 1960s. The main goal was to select the new clones and cultivars, providing good quality and volume of industrial wood.

According to the basic selection goal, cultivars can be classified into three groups, the first group's main goal production of locusts suitable for sawmilling. So the target product was the sawlogs. The best cultivars are, I will say its Hungarian name, Nyírségi, Kiskunsági, Jászkiséri, Üllői, Epelecsi (Appalachia), Pénzesdombi, Röjtökmuzsaji and Góri.

[Greg Edge]

So Brad, can you repeat those, please?

[Brad Hutnik]

I'll memorize them for later. Yes. Yeah.

[Greg Edge]

Those are sawlog cultivars, Zsolt, is that correct?

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yes, sawlogs, sawlog, yeah. The stem form was straight and the growing rate was very high.

[Brad Hutnik]

And then there are cultivars for other purposes too?

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yes. The other groups, the main goal of selection was production for poles and props for the agricultural using. Main products, I can say that pitprops, wine and orchard props, fence poles, hop poles, and so on and so on.

And in these groups, the best cultivars is following Zalai, Szajki, Ricsikai, Császártöltési, so it's the Hungarian name, of course.

[Brad Hutnik]

It is interesting when you mentioned the posts, my experience here is that a lot of, like, and Greg, you mentioned it earlier, I've seen a lot of farms here that had locusts that they used for posts. Back when I was in the field, we had operations where we were trying to eliminate it. But there were hop producers here that would actually seek out locust because it was fairly inexpensive.

They didn't have to get a pressure treated pole, they could use that locust at a fraction of the cost. And it was really rot resistant, so it was really good for those purposes.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yep. Black locust has an excellent wood material because its wood material is really durable and hard. We can use it for a lot of different purposes.

And the third goal was the improvement of bee pastures and decorative planting. Best cultivars, Rózsaszín AC, Hungarian Rózsaszín, in English, pink. Pink. It's a color.

[Greg Edge]

Pink, yeah.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yeah, yeah. Debreceni, Halványrózsaszín, Debreceni 3, 4, Mátyusi, so on and so on.

And some cultivars are suitable for both forestry and honey production. Such a double use cultivars, for instance, Zalai, Kiskunsági, Császártöltési, Egylevelű (Robinia pseudoacacia var. monophylla, one-leaved black locust), and the Váti 46”.

[Brad Hutnik]

It's interesting, Greg, maybe you've had this experience, but when the locusts are blossoming here in spring green, like, you know it, like, because you can smell it every place. And I remember turkey hunting a couple of years ago where I fell asleep and I woke up and the wind shifted and all I could smell was the locust blossoms. It was like I woke up in Bermuda.

It was fantastic.

[Greg Edge]

Yeah, it's very strong. It's interesting, Zsolt, that Hungary has done so much work to breed for sawlog, the straight form that you're talking about, because here our black locust, at least my experience, has been very poor form. So it's very crooked, very difficult to get a good, solid log out of it.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yes, very interesting. There are a black locust group, Robinia pseudoacacia, Varietas rectissima, so-called shipmast tree, shipmast stem form. And it's very important from the selection program point of view, because in the past, Béla Keresztásy and his colleagues selected such a stem form, which had a very straight stem form, shipmast stem form.

So they selected these trees and established a lot of different experiments. And this stem form is very suitable for sawlog production.

[Brad Hutnik]

If I got it right, some of the cultivars that you guys have been working on, some of them, I think, are coming back to the United States or people are buying them and bringing them over here now, too. So they're basically bringing it back in a better growth form. I think here they're using it in agroforestry, so they're using it for a lot of different purposes.

But it's fascinating that, you know, there's this interaction of locust, not where it normally grows, but somewhere in Europe where they're doing much better work with it than we are here. So it's fascinating.

[Zsolt Keseru]

I was in the U.S. one time in 2017. I was Virginia Tech, Blacksburg.

[Brad Hutnik]

Blacksburg, yep.

[Zsolt Keseru]

There I met Dr. John Fike. He organized and collected a lot of leaf samples for providing us these samples. And we started genetic testing in our institute.

So here I would like to say many thanks for Professor John Fike. Without him, comparative genetic testing wouldn't have been possible.

[Greg Edge]

Those studies are always very interesting. And Zsolt, because Hungary is working with these cultivars, I assume many of the stands of black walnut are established through tree planting, artificial regeneration. Can you say something about what does that look like in Hungary in terms of tree planting?

How do they establish plantings? What is the spacing look like? What does that initial planting look like?

[Zsolt Keseru]

In Hungary, black locust plantation can be considered as the traditional silviculture and the other group, the industrial wood plantations. According to the traditional black locust stands planted, the planting spacing is 2.8 by 0.7 meters. Black locust stands planted for industrial purposes, the planting spacing is wider.

For instance, 3 by 1.5 meters.

[Greg Edge]

So there's two different planting spacings, kind of your standard and then the industrial you're saying is that wider spacing.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yes.

[Greg Edge]

Are those industrial plantings for saw logs mainly?

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yes. So the advantages of the wider planting spacing is lower seedling costs, of course, and wider row spacing, allowing trees to reach target diameter size much faster.

[Brad Hutnik]

I suppose that allows you to do less early interventions in the stand then too. You can just plant it and let it grow for a while. You don't have to come in and do some release right away or things like that.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yeah. The traditional afforestation and reforestation of black locust, the goal is to produce logs, posts or high quality firewood, fuel. And of course, the initial density is really high.

4,000 to 6,000 seedlings per hectare is used.

[Greg Edge]

Once those plantations are established and then managed, is the next rotation, is it oftentimes regenerated through coppice then, or is it replanted?

[Zsolt Keseru]

According to the traditional silviculture of black locust, the rotation period is about 25 or 30 years. But in the case of industrial black locust replantations, the rotation period is lower. It's only 15 years.

[Brad Hutnik]

Wow. Somewhere, Greg, someone listening to this, their ears just picked up and said, wait a minute, that's pretty short compared to what they're working with here in the United States.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yes, because it's a very important step, because usually in the industrial tree plantations, using very intensive cultivations, I mean irrigation, nutrient supplement and pruning and so on and so on.

[Greg Edge]

With those 15 year rotations, what is the size that they're growing those to?

[Zsolt Keseru]

The diameter at breast height is about 30, 35 centimeters, and the height of trees can reach 20, 25 meters.

[Greg Edge]

OK. Are those being used for poles at that point?

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yes, poles and props.

[Greg Edge]

It's great that foresters can talk the same language in terms of diameter at breast height. Brad and I just have to do the metric conversion in our heads.

[Brad Hutnik]

Yeah, I was just doing that. The 35 centimeters is almost 14 inches. So it's right in that small saw log kind of range for what we would see here.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Of course, these parameters can be reached under optimal site conditions.

[Brad Hutnik]

Season seven of SilviCast is made possible thanks to sponsors like the Family Forest Carbon Program. The Family Forest Carbon Program pays landowners to improve the health of their land and increase the long term value of their property. The program equips landowners with resources and support to implement sustainable practices that help them reach their own goals for their woodlands, while also improving the health of their forests and our planet.

To learn more about how you can access these benefits for our forests, visit familyforestcarbon.org.

[Greg Edge]

Are some of those plantations then cut and coppiced back so they allow them to just re-sprout?

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yes. Regeneration and afforestation of black locust stands can be done by coppicing or by planting seedlings.

[Brad Hutnik]

Is it common to use coppice in Hungary on the stands?

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yes. According to the traditional black locust cultivation, yes, yes. The management of the black locust coppice forest is a key aspect of Hungarian forestry, especially on the Great Hungarian Plain.

Black locust possesses an extraordinary vegetative reproduction capacity, making it the primary species for coppice management.

[Brad Hutnik]

So when you're doing it, and that's maybe in those traditional places, you're doing it with coppice. Are there other species that get mixed in in those stands? Are these really just pure black locust stands?

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yes. We can use it only for black locust stands because there are two different coppice methods.

[Brad Hutnik]

Yeah, right.

[Zsolt Keseru]

For instance, root suckers, regeneration from root suckers and stump spruce. But the stump spruce is not a very good method because these grow from the remaining stump after harvesting. They grow extremely fast in the first few years due to the existing root system, but are more prone to heart rot from the old stump.

So fungal infection can be occurred. But the root suckers, these emerge from the shallow lateral root system. They are highly valued because they develop independent root systems quickly and produce high quality straight timber.

[Brad Hutnik]

From what I've read, you go back into those stands then after a coppice, you actually go in pretty quickly to start working on the thinning and establishing and identifying trees that you want to grow in the long run.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yeah, we can do so-called tending operational methods. So thinning and clearing in the first few years, according to the tending operation method, and we can say about yield classes, the first and second yield classes of the final harvest volume can reach 218 to 380 cubic meters per hectare under optimal site conditions.

[Greg Edge]

So high volumes. Do any of those stands, do you do pruning for quality or is pruning not necessary?

[Zsolt Keseru]

It's a very good question. Pruning is a critical step, I think, because to reach the quality wood material, I think we have to prune the stems. Yeah, and it's very important the time pruning.

I think we have to do that early spring or late winter.

[Brad Hutnik]

So you've pruned the stands and a lot of these that were starting with coppice, are they then thinned at some point before the end of their rotation or do you just grow them to the end of the rotation at a higher volume?

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yes, after the clear cutting, we can regenerate the backlog with plantation by coppice or after the total soil preparation, we can plant by seedlings.

[Greg Edge]

So site preparation and then replanting them again. It's really interesting to talk to you about the species that many of our foresters try to get rid of, but you are managing it very intensely for a whole wide range of products. So it's just a really interesting difference from what we do here in the Lake States.

You're going to get Brad starting to grow black walnut plantations.

[Brad Hutnik]

Well, I don't know if we'll grow plantations, but we might not ignore it. I think here in the United States, I think we have a love hate relationship with it. I think some people I think more now we're seeing some people really kind of thinking about it.

But we've seen it kind of and I've read about it in Western Europe and other places. They talk about it like that invasive, you know, the weed that that gets established every place. You guys, though, you've been able to approach it and actually concentrate on the good qualities and then basically producing new cultivars and then being intensive about your production, which seems to avoid a lot of those problems, at least for you.

[Zsolt Keseru]

The perception of black locust in Europe is highly polarized and represents one of the most controversial topics in modern European forest and nature conservation. As you mentioned, a lot of people can be considered innovative tree species. It's a classic example of a conflict between economic utility and ecological preservation.

A lot of people say that the black locust is the enemy of biodiversity. From a strictly environmentalist and EU conservation viewpoint, the black locust is classified as an invasive alien species of significant concern. And the ecological conservationists criticize it because it spreads aggressively, displaces native European tree species, for instance, like native oaks and beeches, and alters soil chemistry because it fixes nitrogen in it, enriches the soil, which destroys sensitive nutrient for native ecosystems like cockerels, grasslands.

I can say that the European regulations is very strict regulations. The EU has strict regulations regarding invasive species, discouraging their planting and funding projects to eradicate them from protected areas such as Natura 2000 areas. But Hungary, I can say, luckily, Hungary stands out in Europe as the primary defender of the black locust.

When the European Union considered placing tighter restrictions on these species, Hungary successfully lobbied against the total ban. So maybe you know that in 2014, the Hungarian government declared both the Hungarian black locust and its honey as Hungaricum, granting them symbolic national protection.

[Brad Hutnik]

Which is fascinating. I mean, because that's kind of really embracing something. But it's been around for so long in Hungary that it's effectively, you know, almost like you might consider it native in a way there, the way you're using it.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yes, really, it's a very important tree species in Hungary, because, for instance, in the eastern part, in the Nierszegh region, a lot of people live from black locust growing. So it's a very important tree species.

[Greg Edge]

Economically, do the products get shipped out of Hungary to other places or are there restrictions in the European Union on that?

[Zsolt Keseru]

I think in case a lot of different countries, the situation is similar, considering the black locust. But I have to say that today, in the age of climate change, the interest in black locust growing is increasing continuously in many countries, too. For instance, I can say we have a really good professional relationship, for instance, with Korea, with France, Germany, Serbia, Bulgaria, so a lot of different countries.

Interesting. And coming to Hungary to study the Hungarian black locust cultivation.

[Brad Hutnik]

It was interesting, Greg, in preparing for this episode. We don't see it here, but you guys, Hungary, you're the leader in working on it. But just like you mentioned, it's one of the most common plantation species around the world, which is just fascinating.

It's got this whole story outside of our experience here. We know nothing about it.

[Greg Edge]

Zsolt, you mentioned that there's a renewed interest in the species, maybe from a climate standpoint. So is the outlook for black locust good under climate change scenarios?

[Zsolt Keseru]

We can say that today, black locust, at least in Hungary, site conditions can tolerate the negative effect of climate change. I mean that black locust can tolerate the dry, sandy sites and can tolerate the high air temperatures. It requires the well aerated and loose sandy soils.

But black locust also can be planted in the heavy, compact soil types also. So the site plastic is very, very wide here.

[Greg Edge]

A wide range. Yeah, that's what I would think of that species. And like you said, from a climate perspective, with hotter and drier conditions, that seems like it would sit.

So maybe people's impression of the species is they're rethinking it, as you said, in many different places.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yeah. Today, more and more colleagues call us from the northern part of Europe, for instance, Germany, United Kingdoms and so on and so on, because, of course, the climate in these countries will be similar to today in Hungary.

[Brad Hutnik]

It's always interesting to talk to someone who's an expert on something that I know nothing about. I'm guessing a lot of foresters in the United States have had a perception of locust that, you know, maybe this is something that or we just we start with a negative outlook. If you could give advice to foresters who are kind of maybe rethinking it or just looking at locust for the first time or, you know, like talking to North American foresters about it, what would you what would you want to tell them?

What would be something you'd want to leave them with as something that you would say, here's my advice on black locust?

[Zsolt Keseru]

That's a key message to deliver to North American foresters who are rethinking black locust. It would be, for instance, the following, the genetic selection. The genetic selection and the intensive silviculture are the difference between an invasive weed tree and the industrial gold.

While black locust is still widely viewed in North America as an invasive, crooked and low value species, European and particularly Hungarian forestry has proven that targeted management can transform it into one of the world's most valuable, naturally durable and chemical free hardwoods. I think personally that the genetic selection and the breeding work is very element and important. And the other one, if I can say that the management cannot be left to nature, for instance, the European experience shows that the best defense against pests is explosive early growth driven by intensive silviculture.

And I think that foresters and not only in North America, but I think all over the world, the foresters must recognize that the black locust is a pioneer species, pioneer tree species. It is highly tolerant of shade and cannot regenerate or spread inside the closed, mature forest canopy. Yes, I think it would be the important thing.

[Greg Edge]

Brad, if you're going to take that step in North America, we have a lot to learn yet about that species because Hungary is much further ahead on that.

[Brad Hutnik]

Well, you know, Greg, part of this discussion comes from looking at a lot of sites where we have locusts growing. And this is my personal experience. We've done a ton of work to eradicate it in some places, but they're very degraded sites.

They're very degraded forests. We don't I don't see a lot of black locust in high quality, high value sites, at least in my experience. And so we spend a lot of money to treat all of the stumps and to try and make sure it comes.

We don't get it. But then because it's got that it's that legume with that with the seed coat that makes it sit in the soil forever, you still have a ton of seedlings that come through. So it's very hard to eradicate.

And so, Greg, what's the song? If you if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with.

[Greg Edge]

Hmm.

[Brad Hutnik]

So in some places here, we might want to consider, is there a way to work with it and are there benefits or are there things we could do to actually use it instead of, you know, pouring tons of herbicide on the but it's all in a case by case basis. It's not every place. There are lots of places where it's maybe growing in a prairie.

We didn't want it. But if it's a but maybe a lot of landowners here wouldn't have the wherewithal to kind of to try and eliminate it, even if they wanted to.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Unfortunately, due to the negative effect of climate change in Hungary and I think, of course, in other many countries, the tree breeders have to find such other tree species that can be planted under Hungarian site conditions, for instance, because unfortunately, in the future, we can reach that era and black locusts cannot tolerate the changed site conditions, for instance. So we have to find the native tree species, indigenous tree species that we can plant under the changed site conditions.

[Greg Edge]

Well, that's a great challenge for all of us. And Zsolt, I really appreciate you coming to speak to us about one of our own native species, which we don't know, which we don't know much about. So it's really great to share that knowledge with us.

So so thank you very much.

[Brad Hutnik]

Zsolt, yeah, again, to reiterate, thank you. Greg, next time we're together, we will raise a glass of and Zsolt, I'll probably get this wrong, Pálinka , and we'll do it in your honor. So it'll be good.

Correct me if I'm wrong. It's a Hungarian brandy.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yeah.

[Brad Hutnik]

And Greg, maybe we'll flavor it with locust blossoms. It'll be better yet.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Yes, Pálinka is also hungarikum in Hungary, yeah?

[Brad Hutnik]

Yeah, yeah.

[Zsolt Keseru]

Different. Fruit Pálinkas. Yeah, yeah.

Thank you very much for your kind invitation. And it's really an honor for me. Thank you very much.

[Greg Edge]

Thank you, too.

[Brad Hutnik]

Yep. Thank you. Thank you.

Greg, that was a really interesting conversation. And, you know, in preparing for this, in reading some of the literature that comes out of Europe, I noticed that they use terms that maybe we don't use very often, so it's kind of really cool to do that.

[Greg Edge]

So you're thinking about terms, are we?

[Brad Hutnik]

I'm thinking about terms. So you know what that means? Yep.

[Greg Edge]

I'll cue up the Silvictionary music here.

All right. Well, or we're going to ride the SilviSaurus, right? So the words I was thinking of were low forest and high forest.

[Greg Edge]

OK.

[Brad Hutnik]

Now, you probably think of a high forest, as you know, like when you're out there and you're working in a tree, start to talk to you, you know, and you've got that kind of you've got maybe that cannabis alley cropping going on.

[Greg Edge]

I was thinking more of my friends in low places, sort of low forest. That's where I'm at.

[Brad Hutnik]

Yeah. Or maybe just, you know, doing stuff like that. But in actuality, so high and low forest actually refer to the origin of the stand.

So a low forest is a forest that's basically of coppice origin.

[Greg Edge]

OK. So coppice.

[Brad Hutnik]

Think of like our aspen stands would be low forest.

[Greg Edge]

OK.

[Brad Hutnik]

Maybe some of, you know, any place that we're using that. But if we're looking at seed origin for our stands, then we'll be or basically a planted stand that we'd be looking at something like a high forest.

[Greg Edge]

OK.

[Brad Hutnik]

And so historically, authors would use that distinction in trying to talk about the origin, because some of these might be used for different purposes. So low forest could be more intensively managed or maybe didn't have that if they weren't worried about diversity. They were basically just worried about getting something quickly out of that stand over and over.

[Greg Edge]

What if it's a forest that originates through a combination of coppice and seed?

[Brad Hutnik]

Then I guess they would have to take their pick on that, wouldn't they? And actually, you don't hear about that very much. It was interesting. We asked Dr. Keseru about what I'm always curious about is there must be some combination, even in Hungary, of other species kind of slipping into those, say, those coppices that they do. At some point, they must be there.

[Greg Edge]

Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. But it sounds like, you know, much of that management is very intensive.

Plantation culture. So, you know, it's probably other species get eliminated, I would think.

[Brad Hutnik]

Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of interesting just to think about.

And I don't use those terms, but now I think I had to go. Actually, the reason I brought it up here is when I saw it, I had to go, wait, what are they talking about? So one less mystery in the world.

[Greg Edge]

Yeah. And you see it a lot of times when you read old stuff, particularly, as you said, from Europe.

[Brad Hutnik]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for listening to today's episode of SilviCast. If you have ideas for future episodes or a question for the Dropbox, please let us know.

Greg, have you seen any questions in the Dropbox recently?

[Greg Edge]

Not recently.

[Brad Hutnik]

Not recently.

So we could use more questions. Send us ideas. Send us thoughts.

Send us artwork you're working on. Send us anything you want.

[Greg Edge]

OK.

[Brad Hutnik]

Send us beer. But we'll do anything. We'll take it.

The Dropbox is big. You can reach us at UW-Stevens Point's Wisconsin Forestry Center by emailing [email protected]. And feel free if you have a question or if you have any thought at all to create a sound file of your comment or question, pass it along. We'll put you on SilviCast.

And I think that would be pretty cool, Greg, if we could get one. We've used that line. How many years have we ever gotten one?

[Greg Edge]

No, we've never gotten a sound file.

[Brad Hutnik]

No, we have not. So you if you're listening to this, you could be a pioneer.

You could do that. And always remember, we learn best when we wrestle with questions. So please keep them coming.

[Greg Edge]

And take care, everyone. And as always, thanks to our team, our executive producer, Susan Barrett, Joe Rogers, editor and IT Jedi Master, theme music by Paul Frater. And of course, UW-Stevens Point's Wisconsin Forestry Center.