Children's Book About Testing That Inspired a Future Tester - Kari Kakkonen

0:00It's like tissue testing these days, you know, you you need to have a new person to try out the same ideas. I realized that actually there's not too much information about testing to children. So many books for different angles of professionals and testing this, testing that, but not really for testing for children So for adults who are testing professionals, this is actually the thing to do. Try to read and notice these small analogies. I I don't I don't explain why the dragon was black.

0:31So so you can you can try to find the analogy and think why is it is it black. Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed. My name is Richie and And I have another episode from the Testcon 5 conference from Mauritius. My guest was Kari Kakkonen. He was one of the first guests of this episode. Maybe you remember his talk about software testing leadership. Today we talked about his book. that explains software testing with dragons and knights. Why dragons are defects and knights are testers, how children reacted to the story and why a 12-year-old girl now wants to become a tester.

1:11That's all you hear in this episode. Enjoy. Hello Kari, great to have you on the show here. Hello Richie. Glad to be here. It's a great place. We are now on Mauritius here at the Testcon conference. So we we meet everywhere except Germany and Finland. Yeah, seems like yeah, yeah. Conferences around around the world. Yeah. But it's okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And we have uh uh we've uh thought about what can we talk about uh because you have so broad knowledge and so long time being in in testing.

1:52Uh and uh you put out a book about dragons. Yeah And I did, yeah. Five languages at the moment. Five languages. Finnish and English. French, German, Polish. Oh, it's like Harry Potter. Yeah, almost almost. Maybe not as big s success. But yeah, I think it's getting there. Yeah, yeah. But what was the story behind it? Because I cannot get the dragons into quality. It's a good point. It it's um it it started when I wanted to write a book of my own. I didn't quite know which one it would be and how it how I would turn around And then I was thinking that okay w w w what is is there which is not really explored yet and I realized that actually there's not too much information about testing to children.

2:46So many books for different uh angles of professionals, you know, testing this, testing that, but not really for testing for children. And then I was thinking about so how could I Convey a message of testing for children. It needs to be a story. It needs to be a an interesting story. It needs to be something that they want to pick up. Then I uh a book that they want to pick up, so then I was thinking, okay, what um can I make it even more interesting?

3:13Can I can I maybe combine combine my my own passions and so what what do I like? So I actually like fantasy stories quite a bit and and in in many fantasy stories you have knights and you have dragons and they uh battling so so I was playing around with this analogy and then I was quickly able to find a few possible angles. It could be like that. Dragons could be good guys or bad guys. But it didn't that didn't really work when I was playing it with uh the idea verbally with with some some children but but then I tried how about if dragons are defects yeah And so who is going to find those dragons or battle those dragons?

3:56That would be knights. So knights would be testers and developers. So around that key analogy, I was then able to build a whole world of fantasy. Where anything that you see is actually an analogy of our ISTQB world. Yeah, different kind of dragons, different kind of defects, different kind of knights and people and villagers, lords and ladies They all have their place in trying to ensure good quality, you know, do software testing, remove defects, build better software.

4:27Yeah, all these things. So it yeah, yeah, it it was I mean it was the last one. Yeah yeah it is indeed a a good good uh intro book for testing for for any any edges. Actually I I like to say it's for ages from nine to ninety-nine. Yeah. Like we say in in games. Of course most of the readers are are probably children and and adults. who uh like to explain how how it you know what testing is to their their kids and also teachers who who um who want to you know, bring software testing and and as an extension the whole IT and coding and testing all of that in in into their schools and into their classes.

5:13So it's also been used there. Ah, that's great. And um not not to spoil it too much, but can you give us some examples? What does this this the story the storyline uh in the book Yeah yeah so uh we uh m m mainly there are two two kids, uh girl and a and a boy who are uh finding these uh interesting things happening, uh finding dragons and then suddenly there's also a knight and then they start getting enthusiastic about yeah yeah we we also want to help the knights and you know they want to help find different dragons and and get rid of them or even even make friends with dragons.

5:49Whatever, but you know, so that we drag dragons wouldn't be harmful. So that yeah and the story grows bit by bit they we meet different Kind kinds of dragons and uh and of course as a reader then when you read a book uh every now and then so roughly every page once every page there's a a uh explanation as a text box. So you it's you you see it's a separate thing as a as a storage. So okay what just happened in previous half a half a page was like this.

6:19So you you you you saw the green dragon and that would be the usability defect and and and use it with particular knight and that was a tester with particular skills like that and that so it's always explained out Ah okay. You know, really really spelled out. This is how it is. Yeah, yeah. And and on which parts of the software testing, software quality did you focus in the in the story? Um well it's it's actually Sort of everything. Everything. So the book book structure is that every every uh chapter is a different kind of a quality attribute or quite odd defect.

6:53So there's a functional chapter, there's performance chapter, there's usability chapter, a security chapter. And and so on. So we actually go through um I I was thinking about uh Kim Kahner's famous uh Buck taxonomy. You know, what are what are the different uh bugs or defects that they are and I and I was I was going through that. I was checking okay that that is covered now next chapter okay I'll take that defect covered so so in in that way I was able to cover all um well mm I I skipped a few but most of the uh defekts in in his klassification of backtexonomy.

7:32Yeah, so it it covers everything in a way. It doesn't talk about test automation or AI too much. Okay, so not everything in that sense It hints into these special things, but so I'm I'm leaving something for sekond second versus. Yeah, you need you can upgrade it or the second part in the in the series of whatever. Return to the Dragons or something. Trilogy of I don't know how many parts. Yeah, great. And and uh did you get uh any feedback from from from uh young people they they read the book?

8:03Yeah I did. I I I looked for it. because I I I wrote it iteratively as I as I mentioned. Even with idea I tried with some children. So I had a I had four different rounds. So first chapter round, then one third of a book, two thirds of a book and a whole book. I was always looking into different different um people so I would hear fresh ideas. It's like tissue testing these days. You know, you you need to have a new person to try out the same ideas.

8:30So but I but I I was able to talk to lots of people and I so I I found also adults so I found teachers, I find uh testing professionals, I I I find non-uh IT people and and also children of different ages and and so yeah they they all all read what I had so far and gave nice feedback and encouraged me that this is a good path Yeah. And I I of course I needed to change a few things. Maybe the biggest change was to actually make it the full storyline.

9:00Because originally with different chapters were slightly uh separate but but um mostly they we had these two two two kids all the time there but um but on a few chapters I I had to to To make the analogy I had it had done slightly different but I needed to redo those so that I could make it a continuous story where you you can have these, you can see these two children here all the time. I I can imagine that young people uh they give very hard feedback.

9:30Very honest one. Yeah, I do, I do. But when you get to this nice nice feedback as well. It sounds boring. It's fine. It's not to everybody. But then somebody else especially remember this This girl which was maybe twelve at the book fair where I was showing my books and and and she she came around and and and looked at look at the book back you know uh background and and then uh lifted through a little bit and and she actually said just based on that and and and her mom was there you know I want to buy this book and And you know it it seems so interesting that uh that I actually I want to do it for for profession.

10:13Yeah. It's like wow that's pretty good first impression. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so maybe maybe that's a that's a good good way to to inform about software testing because software testing is still in the when we we look at the school or university part a very very niche format. It's it's not It is, it is. And and even even in Finland where we have in in the curriculum of that government. dISTQBates you have to cover these things. Then we teachers have the uh freedom of how they cover those things.

10:44But they they they're coding coding is mentioned there. So all through elementary school, all the way up to high school you actually need to teach more and more coding. But it's always coding. There's nothing about testing. But of course as an extension many teachers think that okay and they understand you need to test and not only code so so they actually have have taken taken this and and use it as part of their classes of of different natures.

11:10So yeah I've I'm I was quite happy. And actually then when uh when we uh finish an English edition where um published uh together pretty much at the same time same year um I actually uh organized a a campaign of a um a donation campaign where companies and associations, so including many ICQB boards actually, they were able to uh uh purchase uh we pre even pre-order with books and and and then uh after that campaign was was done and we English and Finnish versions were available, they would donate these to local schools.

11:48Oh right. So in Finland I took care of donations myself, so I I distributed we we we donated books to uh about fifty schools and and and then in different countries the different uh ICQB boards did the same for the some some local schools. So that's pretty cool and and it to me it culminated in in in handing a um what I call certificate of donations uh into the uh to the Minister of Education in Finland and so she she accepted that and And also one one copy of a book, of course, and g gave uh great thanks about, you know, helping uh grow our children into better future.

12:30Yeah, yeah, I just worry. That's a good idea. And uh did you have uh do you have any plans to make it um audiobook too or an or um film or something like that? Um no maybe maybe. So I I I um I hired um Adrian Sell to create uh illustration but would be possible simple enough but would would make make it a a 3D character in a in a movie or cartoon or something like that so so Så när jag tänker vad kind of illustrator det ska ha. Okskä illustration, men what kind of illustrator?

13:06Så i was i injuning en styl mit Aidri. that you know uh it it needs to be like this. It it needs to be something that could later, if everything goes nice, it could be a movie or it could be a cartoon. So that's why the drag dragons are Det är simple. Det är väldigt. Det är exakt vad jag envisar. Jag kan dra vet väl. Och aldrig kan. Så vi också vi har vi iterat. Så har du ju. How would you like to see this? And and maybe like third iteration of what she draw was like oh yeah yeah this is what I want.

13:42So yeah let's let's do it like this. Yeah yeah Yeah and we just uh mentioned a few topics which could be in then next uh version or in the next uh t for the trilogy Do you have uh uh also um expect exact uh test automation and AI and other topics you want to put, would you put in into the next issue of that book? I think next one would also be about different techniques and heuristics. Because now it's it's a little bit of explaining uh testing types really.

14:11So you have quality characteristics and then you have related testing types and that's No, that's really what it is. So how how do you exactly find security defects? So there could be a whole chapter about security testing techniques. that that could be in in the next edition. So I think it's techniques, uh automation and AI. Mm-hmm. Oh, that that's interesting how you will map that to that brand story. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. Actually, and you mentioned adults earlier, so So something I was trying to do all the time was exactly carry the analogy all the way through a book.

14:49So not everything has been spelled out in these text boxes. So for adults who are testing professionals, this is actually the thing to do. Try to read and notice these small analogies. So I I give a hint which I often uh give in a conference talk also also today I think the you know there is a black dragon I I don't I don't explain why dragon is black. So so you can you can try to find the analogy and yeah yeah and and think why is it Okay. Yeah, yeah.

15:19Yeah, so so now we have the open question for the community. They can already sound great. Uh Kari, thank you very much for this insight into the book. We will link it in the show notes, so it's in five languages, so a lot of people can read it. Maybe hear it in the future and see. It is in audio already. In in English we have audio book as well. Ah okay, that's great. We will link that too. Thank you very much. Enjoy the conference here Yeah, I'll see you soon.

15:50Thank you. See you soon. Thank you.