Empowering Women in Software Testing - Line Thomsen

0:00Speaker 0: Welcome to Software Testing Unleashed, the podcast for testers developers and all project people who want to build great and quality software. Speaker 0: My name is Ritchie, Software Quality Coach, Keynote Speaker Author & Podcaster. Speaker 0: Today I have an episode recorded in Copenhagen at a quality beacon conference. Speaker 0: my guest was Liene Ebtrup Thompson. Speaker 0: She is a quality engineering manager and her passion to help making better software, which truly is customer end-end user centric.

0:32Speaker 0: We talked about women in tech and woman testing. Speaker 0: What are the challenges for Women In The Tech Industry? Speaker 0: And how can we motivate more women & girls To join the tech industry and software testing? Speaker 0: Enjoy this episode! Speaker 2: Hi, Lina. Speaker 2: Great to have you here on the show. Speaker 1: It's great to be here and thank you! Speaker 1: Yeah Speaker 2: we are at Quality Weekend, a Danish software testing conference.

1:08Speaker 2: they do is nearly at the end. Speaker 2: it was a great day with a lot of good speeches out there and keynote in the last keynote this just coming after our talk. Speaker 2: And a few minutes ago there was this panel discussion about women in testing, it's was supported by the ICTQB and you were part of this panel discussions. Speaker 2: Yeah! Speaker 2: This is a topic i want to also mention here too because when i remember my first times in software testing with the company.

1:39Speaker 2: There are around one hundred testers half-about women and half-about men. Speaker 2: so excited Because in testing maybe We don't have a problem there with the balance, but maybe we have. Speaker 2: But that way will clarify now. Speaker 2: so what is your opinion about women in IT or software development? Speaker 2: Or testing? Speaker 2: how do you see this perspective? Speaker 1: yeah I think it's...I mean i can definitely from when I graduated and then got my first job to now, like the division of men and women in IT.

2:20Speaker 1: And also in testing. Speaker 1: specifically, there's more in testing than if you look at developers. Speaker 1: but that is both places... At least in Denmark it seems increasing And there's more women now, but just like it and its moving in a direction. Speaker 1: But so I think one of the first projects that had we were around... It grew when i was here. Speaker 1: We're around thirty people. Speaker 1: There is an IT project. Speaker 1: then he said data engineers and it was developers.

2:49Speaker 1: Then I was this single tester Yeah, uh-and I think they were only three woman out of thirty or something on that project. Speaker 1: They are female And in the beginning you don't think about it, then at some point actually we're just three women. Speaker 1: So I was this single tester on that project. Speaker 1: and who is the one born source of truth? Speaker 1: Born source of knowledge! Speaker 1: Then there's someone had to teach everyone what testing was... ...and thats different.

3:17Speaker 1: now i see projects like the division. Speaker 1: Twenty-five or twenty three is something I think was also said in there like women and in Like. Speaker 1: uh, it's test rolls. Speaker 1: And this differently. Speaker 1: more Women in testing then than men. Speaker 1: So it's happening and i think It's changing and I think you're a fifty-fifty Is yeah, that's Speaker 2: the company Speaker 1: where? Speaker 1: Yeah What year is this? Speaker 1: i'm like i was just surprised by.

3:45Speaker 2: Was my first job in an all school company? Speaker 2: men and fifty women. Speaker 2: so maybe I get lucky. Speaker 1: Maybe you do but at least for me it's an impressive statistic especially because its not a newer story, we were just in the beginning of your career right? Speaker 2: That was a long time ago! Speaker 2: I'm Speaker 1: not going to go into that... You said it? Speaker 2: What did he think? Speaker 2: when we see that in testing are more women than the development?

4:22Speaker 2: Why testing? Speaker 2: What skins do you think, why is there more women in testing than other branches of the industry. Speaker 1: It's a good question. Speaker 1: I mean at least sometimes it's also... A lot people end up kind of random in testing because we don't have that degree. Speaker 1: qualifies you to do software testing. Speaker 1: So sometimes it's developers that ended up in testing, or people who did various degrees just like myself randomly end-up doing software testing was not something when I started my studies and thought i'm going to be in testing.

5:06Speaker 1: Like i said at the at the panel discussion i thought i was gonna use your research but then found out yeah actually a testing is more for me my field and what I wanted to do. Speaker 1: And why there's more women? Speaker 1: Some of it, maybe if you're a manual tester and come from like business domain knowledge then they become testers diverge into maybe more technical testing along the way. Speaker 1: At least, I feel like that's often the story i see when it is older testers and how they end up as either developers who ended up in testing because started doing development but then didn't like it much at all The reviewing part and picking things apart than I liked develop that skill instead.

6:02Speaker 1: Why it's like that I think, we talked about and i don't know if its a systemic thing but also changed the way that we view what is appropriate? Speaker 1: And What Is A Good Degree? Speaker 1: It'a hard question to answer! Speaker 1: We're definitely seeing more women in software development To me at least software development and attesting as creative things. Speaker 1: In testing you get to imagine what can go wrong. Speaker 1: And in the same way software development, right?

6:33Speaker 1: You have to imagine how we build things and I think often like... The more creative subject is when women do it then men do hard core technology and stem things. Speaker 1: For me at least its creative development, but then also testing. Speaker 1: You have to imagine what can go wrong? Speaker 1: How can we test it? Speaker 1: and so on... That Speaker 2: reminds me of one podcast episode a few weeks ago with Isabel Evans. Speaker 2: she did an survey with her PhD work about the background of software testing in diversity and testing.

7:13Speaker 2: She found out that background of the people who go into testing is completely different from any other. Speaker 2: There are arts, there are people doing planting gardening stuff and maybe this also one why we have more women in testing than another aspect? Speaker 2: We need different perspectives when you do software quality stuff Speaker 1: exactly it really builds on. Speaker 1: I had So I did a lot of recruiting in the previous company that I worked with.

7:39Speaker 1: It was also consulting, and I was asked to do a presentation for our recruitment department And it was both people who sat at this test. Speaker 1: but more generally like every role we were hiring For They said can you please do presentations about what should be looked for In recruitment? Speaker 1: But also because we're recruiting for jobs We don't have ourselves. Speaker 1: so can you explain a little bit? Speaker 1: And so I sat down and one of the things that said is like, it doesn't matter what degree you have.

8:10Speaker 1: Because i've seen...I had a really good colleague who studied...it was not biology but geology? Speaker 1: It's like stones! Speaker 1: What does this have to do with Speaker 1: testing?! Speaker 1: But its more her mindset than she thought. Speaker 1: She made herself such a good test manager. Speaker 1: So for me You know, like I wouldn't have anticipated that if you studied it then you would be a good test manager. Speaker 1: But also people who have softer backgrounds with their study of music and cultural understanding And they were such a good tester!

8:45Speaker 1: How is this? Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with degree... ...I think its something about being curious right? Speaker 1: The curiosity in wanting to understand and take things apart.. ..I had the grandfather. Speaker 1: he bought things for them Like a computer, he was like I wanted to know what it. Speaker 1: What? Speaker 1: Was inside. Speaker 1: so He took them apart and looked at that. Speaker 1: And that's one of the things i also said.

9:04Speaker 1: you need To be curious and want to take Things Apart needs to Be good at communicating because if You can't communicate you Can't tell people we can't go live or We should make this decision and then and Make People understand where we are in terms Of quality. Speaker 1: and So i did The presentation and they were like thank you and happy for the Presentation. Speaker 1: and Then A few days later One of Them came over Christmas party or something.

9:28Speaker 1: She came over, she tapped me on the shoulder and was like I just want to say thank you for a really good Speaker 1: presentation.". Speaker 1: And now everyone in recruitment they wanna do testing. Speaker 1: there's that cool job. Speaker 1: so cool. Speaker 1: what did we didn't know? Speaker 1: Everyone wants to do it right now! Speaker 1: Wow...I'm glad he came across..and i am glad they understood what is it we are doing then? Speaker 1: also degree can be anything Speaker 2: I think.

9:53Speaker 2: another benefit which comes to my mind now is you mentioned communication. Speaker 2: And when i think of a job, Testa typically people business in contact with all the stakeholders from DevOps and Business development who ask lots questions maybe not aligned with main site or project but also very empathic with the people you talked to, and I think that they're all skills which have women much better than men. Speaker 1: At least there was a presentation...I watched one of their Women in Testing, some other recorded presentations online before it.

10:35Speaker 1: And Amanda who is actually on the panel with me did a presentation. Speaker 1: One thing she said that really stuck with me Was that You need to be assertive but kind. Speaker 1: It's such good catchphrase firm and assertive but also being soft than kind because like you said, You have to critique other people's work. Speaker 1: And you need to do it with kindness in a specific way. Speaker 1: otherwise we will now be in conflict right?

11:02Speaker 1: So understanding how I get my message across to you and that you understand We're building a product together i'm not attacking your U.S as person or professionalism Or skills. Speaker 1: anyway It is us together building our products. Speaker 1: That ability is so important. Speaker 1: Also with explaining status where we are at, what can go live? Speaker 1: What's the quality like for a product that's just so key of our work and it's such an important... part and you need to be really good at that because otherwise chemical life like where are we at?

11:38Speaker 1: And it's a really important skill um, To have. Speaker 1: I think uh i've been told by some colleagues Like you can get away with saying things That if if they came... If I said exactly the same thing You did people would be..you know People will kill me but somehow Somehow and its men who often say to Me. Speaker 1: somehow you Can Get Away With It! Speaker 1: They're like I don't understand. Speaker 1: part of it is being kind and assertive, that you people know I'm not attacking them but i am also like Speaker 2: yeah this Speaker 1: what we need to do right.

12:09Speaker 1: So at least for me that really struggled with it was such a good way of describing it so simple as well. Speaker 2: Did he face in your career? Speaker 2: which challenges did they face? Speaker 2: directed branch like IT and tech stuff. Speaker 2: Or do you see any challenges at your clients or the companies who work where women did not get to space day, can't do their right things? Speaker 1: I spend a lot of, I think it's women but also maybe testers.

12:44Speaker 1: If you're the single tester in team with developers or people who have same skillset then they understand what each other does. Speaker 1: and if your'e only person right? Speaker 1: So is there any woman that needs to be able to advocate for yourself and coach my testers in doing that, so standing up for themselves. Speaker 1: And starting off with quality I think goes beyond gender. Speaker 1: but sometimes the assumption can also be because you're a tester or woman maybe less capable of understanding technology.

13:33Speaker 1: spend some time on breaking that barrier down, and you shouldn't let it. Speaker 1: if people assume. Speaker 1: You can control what other people assume. Speaker 1: but of course tell yourself they might have assumed this but its not the truth! Speaker 1: And you could convince them... It may take a while to get there. Speaker 1: so explaining about these things is important technology, and that you do understand what the project is about or whatever it is they're assuming.

14:02Speaker 1: That's important to spot then on trying work with breaking down. Speaker 1: so I at least try really coach my testers for this because there will happen male female if your a tester only person in team also feel responsible to do as well? Speaker 2: I think maybe this is also the problem if you're one woman in a project. Speaker 2: You need a lot of courage against these man-dominated areas, even more than just one tester on your team and this courage is better done when you have good culture or mentoring with them.

14:48Speaker 2: Do Any differences in the generations of leaders and project managers, what comes to how-to deal with women in testing and so forth development. Speaker 2: So we have a picture of the old white man who are doing just things for gender balancing only if they're forced too. Speaker 2: but what about new leaders? Speaker 2: Is it going better or is there an improvement or would you still have to do a lot of work in there for young leaders too?

15:20Speaker 1: I think it varies. Speaker 1: New leaders are more aware of this because there's just been a topic, maybe growing up and through education has been more about topics than at least before right? Speaker 1: So some of them were more aware whether they act different...I'm not sure. Speaker 1: let see but being aware is important. Speaker 1: think that we are past it, you know? Speaker 1: We solved it. Speaker 1: There's no gap anymore at least sometimes.

15:48Speaker 1: the thing we talk about in Denmark where people like job done! Speaker 1: We finished it. Speaker 1: so what do you call now? Speaker 1: and there're still things to see? Speaker 1: were its different right um... And I think people is still aware of this opinion on this. Speaker 1: some people feel We don't have to talk about it, the previous generation took care of it. Speaker 1: So I don't think that people are aware and trying. Speaker 1: how is this for my female colleagues or can i do more as an advocate?

16:27Speaker 1: We had an event where it was about women, of course in technology and then you have to give an award To the best ally. Speaker 1: And-and The guy who got the reward is really He's really humble! Speaker 1: I don't feel like i deserved this award Like...I'm doing something extra. Speaker 1: He said..i just felt that im doing what everyone should be doing. Speaker 1: This is not You know? Speaker 1: Im Not Doing Something Extra the bare minimum, right?

16:58Speaker 1: So for him it was like you know what and I think for people working with them they felt that he's actually doing this. Speaker 1: He is one of those who are very aware how to be a leader in both men & women and make things feel equal. Speaker 1: so at least from me... I don't do anything extra but just try to make it neutral. Speaker 1: If that actually is how people feel working with you, then you really accomplish something. Speaker 2: Do have any tips for female testers to empower themselves in a team or an approach?

17:38Speaker 2: What can they do if the podcasters are like I've got lots of work on my team and what tips would we give them? Speaker 1: Yeah, so one of the things like I also talked about it on the panel discussion is that sometimes i do with two yeah. Speaker 1: I hold myself back. Speaker 1: does this little voice That starts saying something? Speaker 1: but that voice can you know? Speaker 1: You could talk to their voices and make me sound like um uh Um, I'm you know, I talk to my self But it's more than you know that thought of like oh Can I do this or should I do This?

18:09Speaker 1: Or am I good enough? Speaker 1: or is this you know? Speaker 1: And and you can you can talk To that voice and tell It that business you Know. Speaker 1: Like I said you don't get offered things set that people don't think you can do, right? Speaker 1: So saying yes and taking a chance. Speaker 1: I mean this was my first panel discussion but i've also never done it before. Speaker 1: so taking the chances of trying something out... And if you don't like it then just don't try again!

18:34Speaker 1: Taking a chance with things is important. Speaker 1: Try an error when you get some feedback on how to change things. Speaker 1: And then the assertive and kind thing, I think is important. Speaker 1: Sometimes you can maybe fall into the role of like trying to step back a little bit... ...and i think it's important too speak your mind! Speaker 1: You could do that with kindness.... ...and still be assertive about what does she want to have done?

19:07Speaker 1: That would really encourage me. Speaker 1: One other things also mentioned on the panel discussion..... I didn't know that i was doing, which feels good for my career. Speaker 1: Because like my job and am really passionate about what im doing maybe also because there have been a lot of projects where ive been this single tester then I liked talking about what Im Doing. Speaker 1: I like talk about what I want to do something new I read or something we should be doing in the future Or Where I wanna go?

19:40Speaker 1: What I wanna Do And because Of This Then My Managers Knew What I wanted to do and what my dreams were, and what i want it To Do next. Speaker 1: so they knew. Speaker 1: What My skills for? Speaker 1: And what my Dreams Were and where i Wanted to go. Speaker 1: because of this It's easy to give me what i won't. Speaker 1: yeah And there was something that i didn't think about. Speaker 1: That i Was doing. Speaker 1: then at some point it occurred to Me is Because i talk About them Doing i This happened or keep this Or we're trying to do this?

20:04Speaker 1: or i read There's really cool article about Something right. Speaker 1: Then you get to understand what it Is. Speaker 1: both testing is about, what I'm doing and also where maybe we want to go next. Speaker 1: Maybe i wanna be a team lead or something else? Speaker 1: Where get more management responsibility? Speaker 1: So think talking about What it does you want do but also talk him out when your'e doing And finding that place because im an extrovert so its of course easier for me than if you're introvert But you can still Talk About what are u doing and being introvert, you just have to find your own way of doing it.

20:36Speaker 1: And its not bragging It's talking about what you're passionate about. Speaker 1: I think that is okay. Speaker 2: Sounds very good tips. Speaker 2: When we look at the future of testing especially human in-testing What skills do you need? Speaker 2: Do female testers more than man testers? Speaker 2: maybe Speaker 1: what we need more than mail testers. Speaker 1: And in the future, I think Claudia said it really well but that's maybe a general thing That being curious about whats going on.

21:18Speaker 1: there is a lot of technology moving fast right? Speaker 1: If you look away from AI and look back then its moved so far. Speaker 1: So keep being curious and keep learning new stuff and picking up. Speaker 1: Yeah, Speaker 2: maybe because I was saying challenges for men and women. Speaker 2: A young girl will come now to you who says, Lene why should i become a software tester? Speaker 2: What Speaker 1: would she say? Speaker 1: Like I said, the curiosity of like if you're curious and taking things apart.

22:13Speaker 1: Because I also feel like, as you said with testing You're in that wonderful space of technology and people And then some business domain. Speaker 1: If you liked the versatility Of going... Some is technology, some more management skills Then something learning a new domain. Speaker 1: That difference in your work Is interesting than maybe testing it for you Because then we have a lot of that. Speaker 1: And also I think one thing is, yeah... ...I personally really enjoy it!

22:47Speaker 1: So if you don't mind speaking up and being the one who says this where what's going on? Speaker 1: Giving other people feedback about their work in kind way Then maybe testing for creativity as well right? Speaker 1: Yeah It's cool and fun job And I think we get way less credit than we should get. Speaker 2: Yeah, but this is a very cool job. Speaker 2: Thank you very much for the interview here and also my questions in the podcast – it's huge value to have some insights that maybe tell us something about your future when dealing with these different testers and developers in the team.

23:36Speaker 2: So thank you very much, I wish a great rest of the conference! Speaker 1: Thank Speaker 2: you so much!