Lean Management: Why Problem Analysis Beats Quick Fixes - Nirmala Saneechur

0:00Speaker 1: I worked in a project, we developed like fifteen features for the client and when they started using their application then never used those fifteen features. Speaker 1: So that's a waste on time but at the right time When the client needs it. Speaker 1: It is not about blaming people. Speaker 1: Its' about seeing whether there are problems with this process. Speaker 1: For me Lean is a mentality so you can apply anywhere. Speaker 1: You could be home Speaker 0: It could be while Speaker 1: you're driving.

0:31Speaker 1: Am I doing gestures that are not required for example? Speaker 0: Welcome to software testing Unleashed! Speaker 0: My guest today was Niamala Sanichur and we talked about lean management, what it brings to quality. Speaker 0: Why do you rush solutions instead of understanding the problem? Speaker 0: What waste really means in a software project And how you solve problems once for all. Speaker 0: That's all here now In this episode. Speaker 0: Enjoy!

1:14Speaker 0: Hi Nirmala, great to have you on the show here. Speaker 1: Hi Richard! Speaker 1: It's great to be here. Speaker 0: Yeah I love it. Speaker 0: Here we are at the TestCon conference The fifth issue of the test conference Speaker 1: on Mauritius Exactly and its a great pleasure To have you here for the fifth edition And it is a great place to all the ASTQ members. Speaker 1: I speak Speaker 0: to the other guys from my STQP and we're so happy that here is such a rising quality community.

1:44Speaker 0: And they are so happy talking with each other, interacting with each others. Speaker 0: It's really nice to be Speaker 1: here! Speaker 1: It's very nice to see all of them networking with local people as well Lots of people coming to everybody and asking questions. Speaker 1: It's been a great experience for all of us, I guess! Speaker 1: Yeah Speaker 0: yeah... And you are big part because your dealing with the organization stuff here everywhere?

2:08Speaker 0: I'm running Speaker 1: around. Speaker 0: Everything is just have to go to Nirmala and she knows everything and organizes Speaker 1: it. Speaker 1: I am part of the organizing committee with Loveless & Anishta. Speaker 1: one and a half year of organization with the GA happening, and the TestCon. Speaker 1: And we have not been sleeping too much. Speaker 1: I hope everybody is enjoying what we've prepared for them. Speaker 1: It's good experience from other side as well because it gives us perspective on how to organize such big event.

2:47Speaker 1: It's the fifth time we're doing it. Speaker 1: I wasn't here for the first one. Speaker 1: they did, and i was in part of MSTQB. Speaker 1: So since the second one have been part of mstqb And on the operation side if you want. Speaker 1: so I do all the logistic management For the team. Speaker 1: that why? Speaker 1: If he made something you could see him. Speaker 0: That is really good! Speaker 0: You also had a speech about lean management.

3:13Speaker 0: That's very interesting because lean management quality, it fits together I think. Speaker 1: It definitely fits together cause we've seen the results at the company where I work, Ikera. Speaker 1: So i have the opportunity to learn Lean Management there. Speaker 1: so Im Greenbelt certified and its a company that sponsored it. Speaker 1: And what fascinated me about Lean Management is the focus on problems. Speaker 1: When we were doing the course and talking about problems, I got a feeling that when you see problem... ...we want solutions immediately.

3:52Speaker 1: We never take time to understand it. Speaker 0: Okay! Speaker 1: Yeah? Speaker 1: You are always rushing to solve it without really understanding what's going on And in the LEAN programme It was all about the problem. Speaker 0: Yes So Speaker 1: many of us spent so much time understanding the problem. Speaker 1: The solution came Like this, because you knew exactly what was going on and that's really amazing for me. Speaker 1: That is a mindset change Because it has already been my problem.

4:23Speaker 1: I need to solve it But now we take the time to understand It And i think thats where it joins with quality and for all. Speaker 1: You won't get it again, so you are bringing more quality into what your developing. Speaker 1: It's an amazing person. Speaker 0: That is great! Speaker 0: So let us take over of the big picture. Speaker 0: What is lean management? Speaker 1: Lean management as a name says its lean...so we have to make everything lean reducing waste.

4:58Speaker 1: And in lean management, waste is anything that does not bring value to the customer. Speaker 1: and how do you do it? Speaker 1: Is your deliver quality on time at a right time when the client needs it? Speaker 1: Yeah! Speaker 1: To do this we need our teams together so human are at center of everything you're doing. Speaker 1: these three principles So you need to give quality to your customer at the right time, not on-time but in a good way.

5:31Speaker 1: With making sure there's less waste and make sure that teams keep growing with continuous improvement. Speaker 1: It is really an amazing concept. Speaker 1: any industry started in Toyota, so it's a really factory-based concept and it works for our industry as well. Speaker 1: As we've seen with the results that we have got from some of the projects we applied to. Speaker 0: What do you mean by bringing quality at right time? Speaker 0: At the beginning maybe or when customers need Speaker 1: it.

6:07Speaker 1: I think many people maybe have experienced it, but when we're working on a project the customer has lots and lots of requirements. Speaker 1: Some of them they might need... But probably don't need it! Speaker 1: I worked in a project, we developed like fifteen features for the client and when they started using their application then never used those fifteen features. Speaker 1: So that's a waste! Speaker 1: You've produced... you overproduced something And your not use it.

6:36Speaker 1: so its'a waste. Speaker 1: It is not bringing value to customers. Speaker 1: That what i mean by delivering some things at right time On time? Speaker 1: We did it When they asked where was delivered but they didn't ever use them. Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's what I mean with delimiting at the right time for when the customer needs it. Speaker 0: And you said about eliminating waste which can be maybe too much or less of something? Speaker 0: Or a wrong process... What are the methods behind that?

7:06Speaker 0: to eliminate this? Speaker 1: The first thing is understanding the waste. Speaker 1: There're some elements like clicking twice and opening something could be considered a waste because it's not bringing value to the customer, but you have to do. Speaker 1: So that is a way of living with. Speaker 1: But then there are other types of ways. Speaker 1: like I have requirements and if i'm reading them ,I don't understand they will answer me.

7:39Speaker 1: this back-and forth is a waste. Speaker 1: we can work together. Speaker 1: at the beginning took the time, did it together. Speaker 1: So we would not have this go back and forth thing. Speaker 1: so that's a waste. Speaker 1: how could you eliminate that? Speaker 1: Instead of working in silos you work together. Speaker 1: there is no real method in eliminating the waste. Speaker 1: its understanding what What's the waste? Speaker 0: And thinking Speaker 1: about creative solutions to eliminate those wastes.

8:09Speaker 1: It could be like on screen when you go, You have to go through three tabs and then find what your looking for. Speaker 1: Maybe add a hyperlink in first page. Speaker 1: That is also... a way of eliminating. Speaker 1: So you have to be creative in how you're eliminating waste, but it's important to understand what the waste is Speaker 0: for. Speaker 0: You mentioned at the beginning that thinking about the problem this problem? Speaker 0: The waste or Speaker 1: problem It can't be the waist because its not bringing value to customer.

8:40Speaker 1: when you have a problem maybe production stops. Speaker 1: Yeah so could we consider the waste time your spending Correcting an issue on production. Speaker 1: That's a waste so you have to get it right the first time. Speaker 1: How do you do that? Speaker 1: Understanding where you went wrong before. Speaker 1: So each time you understand something more The better chance, you have two. Speaker 1: get it tried for us now. Speaker 1: Yeah It is a waste but how do you eliminate its?

9:08Speaker 1: one of ways of eliminating waste as well Speaker 0: yeah and You also said we had to understand it together. Speaker 0: solution I like this idea because Especially me as a man, we are always trying to have fast solutions. Speaker 0: We have to get rid of the problem here but understand that problems. Speaker 0: I think they're very important. Speaker 0: How can you do Speaker 1: it? Speaker 1: It's very difficult. Speaker 1: Yeah! Speaker 1: Even...I've been applying lean for one year and half And even now when you got your first reaction What is solution?

9:47Speaker 1: Which is not a bad thing because if there's problem in production and production stops you have to find the solution, right? Speaker 1: but then You have to get out of it and take that time to understand It. Speaker 1: And I think people think this is taking too long and i'm Not doing something productive But you're doing something predictive for their future. Speaker 1: Because once you've worked on it you understood The root cause. Speaker 1: you eliminated the chance Of the same problem happening again.

10:14Speaker 1: so its I think it's really in the mind. Speaker 1: It is very difficult, because as humans we want solutions fast and taking time to go back understand what happened why did happen without blaming people. Speaker 1: of course its not about blaming people Its' about seeing whether there are problems with this process or if they were not clear why? Speaker 1: taking the time to understand what went wrong so that in the future you don't have this same issue.

10:48Speaker 1: Very difficult, it's mindset change. Speaker 1: I do not have a tip for you. Speaker 1: It is just doing what needs to be done To let production continue and then takeing the time say ok i've done this its short cut solution ,i need real solutions So that i dont get these problems again. Speaker 1: If we had this mindset changes A lot of issues. Speaker 0: I think this is a huge challenge because the managers typically say we have no time for that, Speaker 1: and Speaker 0: don't think about it.

11:21Speaker 0: We need to fast solution right now. Speaker 0: so to argue that we needed some time To get rid off the problem in future It's not easy Speaker 1: but... I was lucky came from the management. Speaker 1: So, the managers were already trained. Speaker 1: They wanted to bring lean in. Speaker 1: so they understand that it takes time and when you start doing it It takes a lot of time but the more you do it You'll see that its quicker because you know how-to think.

11:57Speaker 1: The reflexes are building into your brain so it goes faster. Speaker 1: At the beginning we used take about one day or two just understanding the problem. Speaker 1: It depends on the problem of course, but it complex problems. Speaker 1: But now its much faster. Speaker 1: so management buying is very important and can be a challenge. Speaker 1: I agree... ...but i was lucky enough to have their buy-in from start. Speaker 1: So you need make them understand that once we do this... ...it solves the problem forever.

12:28Speaker 1: You will never have same problem again. Speaker 1: That's where quality comes in. Speaker 1: So you are building quality for the future, getting ready to do so as well? Speaker 0: I think it is also a part of maybe to train people and see if this is real problem we have to solve with the future or really one-time problems sometimes... You Speaker 1: need to make that difference! Speaker 1: When we do our analysis on problems how many times you've had this problem.

13:03Speaker 1: If it's just one time, probably you don't want to spend so much time understanding and finding... Of course we need to find the root cause but that time will be spent is not too much. Speaker 1: But if its something that occurs regularly I don't know. Speaker 1: if your test environment goes on regularly And they restarted then it starts working. Speaker 1: You won't understand what causes it. Speaker 1: So like..you can solve a problem.

13:26Speaker 1: It depends. Speaker 1: It depends on the problem, I think as well. Speaker 1: And Speaker 0: is it more about optimizing through eliminating the waste and problems? Speaker 0: Or has that also a positive part? Speaker 0: to make optimizations for that? Speaker 1: Um...I think there's an effect even if just at the end of the bit optimizes all process because when you're doing problem solving You will see that it does not only impact the bit you are working on.

14:02Speaker 1: It could impact your whole process, of operations for example. Speaker 1: So we have to work with everybody so they optimise their chain. Speaker 1: That's what companies want, optimisation in order to make more profit. Speaker 1: But in the end, you'll see that effects are much larger than just what you're doing. Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people don't really take that into consideration. Speaker 1: they think it's my bit. Speaker 1: so okay i do today or tomorrow but at the end even small bits will have an effect on your long run.

14:40Speaker 1: You optimize your process and when And if you're in another process when your working, so you optimize there and it's a chain reaction. Speaker 1: If you want yeah We've had that at Ikea where we started working on the IT bit? Speaker 1: Then we realized that is much bigger than just the IT processes. Speaker 1: It went larger then that and with still work in progress... ...and its more difficult to get people who don't understand lean to buy in into the idea, but it's a work-in progress and we see that they are starting to change their processes.

15:18Speaker 1: And everything is too much what we're doing as well. Speaker 1: so its a chain reaction Speaker 0: also. Speaker 0: Yeah yeah I can imagine something. Speaker 0: you have to implement an ongoing process for rest of companies life or something like that. Speaker 0: How do you install this routine? Speaker 1: It's very difficult. Speaker 1: It's very difficult because there are some people who will completely buy into it, but you would have someone say I'm wasting my time on this.

15:49Speaker 1: So what we've tried to do is... We had a session with the whole IT team every Friday where they share one of their problems that they solved and how they thought process in getting it solved. Speaker 1: So it encourages every team to at least keep working because you could be tomorrow, me next week. Speaker 1: It's something that we are kind of forcing... We shouldn't use the word but kind-of-forcing people do. Speaker 1: But its very difficult to get momentum and keep going.

16:26Speaker 1: That is one way where doing this. Speaker 1: And then there will also sessions for those who want more about Lean. Speaker 1: So we have a few people who are green-band certified, and they do coaching sessions with those people. Speaker 1: It's more about education. Speaker 1: if you want to... And then Speaker 0: it is the change process until Speaker 1: everybody Speaker 0: The critical mass of the people are doing is living it. Speaker 0: Yes, Speaker 1: exactly!

16:53Speaker 0: Yeah I think that's very crucial and reminds me also on this ongoing process in a quarter. Speaker 0: A few weeks ago i read about solutions from today to other problems for tomorrow. Speaker 0: so when you have such a process implemented your work on these ways can get as small as possible. Speaker 1: Well, it's a process. Speaker 1: It takes a lot of time and starts with whether you believe in or not because we've had people who are going through the same training.

17:29Speaker 1: they were unable to see how agile could work with lean but these... They worked together! Speaker 1: You're applying lean on top of your agile things. Speaker 1: You have your dailies, you have everything that you do in your. Speaker 1: agile continues on. Speaker 1: it's just what you're doing is having a way to see where the problems are. Speaker 1: The visual management is one of those tools which we have at Lean so you need to draw processes and wear tickets for example when you're solving them throughout the process.

18:09Speaker 1: It's time-consuming at the beginning, but once you get a gist of it... ...it is very smooth. Speaker 1: I think that takes time to work in progress. Speaker 0: When someone hears now about this episode on YouTube,... do you have any recommendation where we should start? Speaker 0: Okay! Speaker 0: Now i want to look deeper into Lean. Speaker 0: Is there any resource you can recommend for going first step? Speaker 1: tried any other resources and just looked on the internet.

18:40Speaker 1: There are lots of information on the Internet. Speaker 1: as you can go in search for it, I'm sure that you'll find a lot... Asked Speaker 0: the judge committee! Speaker 1: But making full with their answers to make sure they're right ones? Speaker 1: Yeah but all judge committee is there are lots and lots of resources over here. Speaker 0: yeah okay Nirmala, thank you very much for giving us this insight into lean management. Speaker 0: I think that's a good starting point where we want to think about the processes and their waste.

19:10Speaker 0: And i think a lot of companies have projected huge amount of waste in there processes... ...and we need get rid off it! Speaker 0: It is also an up-to date topic because When we look at all the AI stuff and want to do agentics, blah-blah-blAH. Speaker 0: We need clear and good processes And if their process are messy or event and something I would not help us. Speaker 0: So it fits perfect in actual Speaker 1: time. Speaker 1: Yeah i think you're completely right In that.

19:42Speaker 1: but for me lean is a mentality. Speaker 1: It's a mentality so You can apply anywhere. Speaker 1: could be At home. Speaker 1: yeah, it will be while your driving. Speaker 1: Am I doing gestures that are not required, for example? Speaker 1: It's something you can apply anywhere and everywhere. Speaker 1: And as we said in this AI era it is something to help us get things on the right track at first time. Speaker 1: So Speaker 0: let all be a little bit lean.

20:12Speaker 0: Yes! Speaker 1: Of course. Speaker 0: Thank-you so much Speaker 1: for having me Speaker 0: thank you for your conference and enjoy the rest of today here Speaker 1: same to you Speaker 0: you.