Emily Post: Ettiquette Queen

0:01Speaker 1:Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

0:11Speaker 2:Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here, too, keeping us proper. And this is Stuff You Should Know, the Sit Up Straight edition.

0:22Speaker 1:I got to say, after researching this, I am a big fan of Emily Post.

0:27Speaker 2:Yeah, she's a surprisingly cool person, especially... for somebody who literally wrote a book on etiquette. Yeah.

0:35Speaker 1:I didn't know much about any of this. And now I'm like, I want to know about her number one fan. I'm sure there's one person on planet earth that likes her more than me. Sure.

0:43Speaker 2:Maybe number two, we'll say three. All right. But yeah, still a big fan. Are you going to buy the book, the blue book?

0:51Speaker 1:Uh, I mean, I probably should. I'm sure it goes to something like her foundation or I want to support her financially still years after her passing.

1:00Speaker 2:That'll do it. Um, I know that I read some think pieces on people who went and read that book and were like lessons I learned from reading this book. And it's pretty much roundly described as lovely, charming.

1:14Speaker 1:Yeah.

1:15Speaker 2:And also useful still, because one of the things that set her apart is because of the way she approached etiquette and rules of etiquette and how to, you know, learn social graces. The, the, It was like a progressive way of doing it. So she was able to basically say, this is what's really important. So a lot of the stuff that she talks about is completely applicable today.

1:40Speaker 1:Some might say more so.

1:42Speaker 2:Yeah. More needed for sure. Yeah.

1:45Speaker 1:So, I mean, they had etiquette guides for sure. It's not like she, even though, you know, you might commonly hear people say she literally wrote the book on etiquette. She did. But she wrote one of the many books on etiquette. Hers was a little bit different than the others in a lot of ways that we're going to talk about kind of here and there. But one of the big ways is she was all about ethics. And as we'll see, you know, we're going to detail her life.

2:10Speaker 1:She was born into money, but she was basically like, hey, listen, just because you have money doesn't mean that you are respectable. You have to have a grounding in ethics. No matter who you are and if you don't have money and if you're, you know, not born into like a great family or something, then that doesn't mean you can't be a part of what she called good society. You just have to know like you have to be grounded in ethics and how to know like how to keep a clean house and how to behave with manners.

2:40Speaker 2:Yeah, which is kind of groundbreaking because up to that point, most etiquette books were basically like, this is what the ultra rich expect of you if you're in their presence. And if you don't do this, you're going to embarrass yourself. So memorize all of these. And she definitely turned it on its head, which, as you said, her being a society or socialite, I guess, herself was really something. She had like the background to basically say, no, there's a better way to do this. Not coming from the outside.

3:07Speaker 2:She was on the inside and that helped.

3:09Speaker 1:Yeah. And also like she wasn't so stodgy that she didn't embrace change when it was like kind of clearly happening. And as we'll see, you know, this book she started to write and came out during the Roaring Twenties. So it was a lot of people, including her sons, thought like this probably isn't the right time for this kind of thing. Like that kind of stuff is old fashioned. And she just said, just hold my tea and I'll take care of this.

3:32Speaker 2:Yeah. So the U.S. in particular has long had a preoccupation with etiquette for a big reason. One is we established our country as a society of equals. There's not an aristocracy, which is where people receive their etiquette from, say, in like England or the U.K. You just did what the aristocrats did or, you know, that was your etiquette. We don't have an aristocracy here. So it was like the wealthy. And like I said, up to that point, Up to the point of Emily Post, the wealthy were just like, or etiquette books were like, here's what the wealthy tell you to do. The problem is, is there are a lot of people in the middle class who were kind of working their way up because in the United States, wealth equals aristocracy, not being born with a title.

4:16Speaker 2:And those people resented the heck out of the upper classes who were just ready and waiting to embarrass them when they slipped up. And so Emily Post came and was like, hey, like you said, you don't have to be born wealthy. You don't have to. Your ancestors didn't have to come on the Mayflower. Anybody can learn etiquette and everybody should practice good etiquette. And that was, again, revolutionary.

4:40Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. So she was born into a rich family. Like I said, her dad, Bruce Price, she was born Emily Price in October of 1872. But her dad was a pretty prominent architect in Baltimore. Her mom, Josephine Lee Price, was an heiress to a coal fortune. And she was basically an only child. She very sadly had a brother who died in infancy. So she was raised an only child. And at five, they moved to New York City. And they were a part of the good society there because they had money. They were not part of that of what was called the 400, which was the super elite upper crust that, you know, a lot of them had aristocratic lineage. But She was in New York and like going to finishing school, that kind of thing.

5:26Speaker 2:Yeah. And you mentioned the 400. I read that that was a way for this elite upper class of old money and old lineage to differentiate themselves from the newly minted wealthy people who were starting to rub elbows with them. That list was one way to do it. Another way to do it was to found a little village called Tuxedo Park, a little north of New York City. And it was created as like an enclave, an escape for the incredibly wealthy old money to get away from new money.

5:59Speaker 2:And I want to preface this, Chuck, by telling everybody I'm not making this up, but Tuxedo Park in New York is where the tuxedo came from, aka the dinner jacket.

6:10Speaker 1:That's right. And her dad in 1885 built four cottages there. And, you know, cottage is a It's a loose description. These are very lovely, very large homes that he built. I looked them up and I was expecting, you know, what I think of as a cottage.

6:28Speaker 2:Right.

6:29Speaker 1:Same. Which is something like 1,200 square feet. These are big, beautiful houses. Tuxedo Park looks amazing. I would love to visit there one day, in fact. But he built four of these, rented out three of them, used one for the family, and, you know, Everyone started like going there in the summers and some people started living there year round. And the Prices were one of those families. Yeah.

6:55Speaker 2:And Emily was just doing basically everything that was expected of her. Like you said, she went to finishing school and at age 17, she premiered at a debutante ball. I think this is 1889. Following the script perfectly, she met her future husband at that debutante ball. His name was Edwin Post, and he didn't come from a ton of money, but he could trace his lineage back pretty far to old New Amsterdam. So he had that going for him. And Emily brought the money to the marriage.

7:24Speaker 2:This is apparently not unusual at the time. And they just went ahead and had two sons, Ned and Bruce. I guess Bruce the Two, the Deuce. Bruce the Deuce. They got there eventually.

7:36Speaker 1:Would they call him? How do you handle that if you're just named after a grandparent?

7:41Speaker 2:I think they differentiated him by calling him Bruce Lee Post.

7:45Speaker 1:Oh, is that it?

7:48Speaker 2:I don't know. Different last name. Little Bruce, Old Bruce, Wrinkly Bruce, Chubby Bruce. Who knows?

7:54Speaker 1:I didn't know if there was an official way you honor someone besides just the name.

7:58Speaker 2:I think it's the second. Is it really?

8:01Speaker 1:I thought that was just if you're named after your parent.

8:03Speaker 2:That's Junior.

8:04Speaker 1:Junior. Oh, okay. So it's the second, huh?

8:07Speaker 2:I believe so. I'm making this up as I go along, but it's based on 50 years of paying attention on Earth.

8:13Speaker 1:I got you. So that's my problem.

8:16Speaker 2:What?

8:17Speaker 1:Don't pay attention.

8:18Speaker 2:That is not true.

8:19Speaker 1:I probably would have picked this up.

8:20Speaker 2:You just pay attention to stuff that's important to you.

8:24Speaker 1:So, yeah, Ned was born in 1893, and Bruce II, Deuce Bruce, Bruce the Deuce, was born in 1895.

8:30Speaker 2:Very.

8:34Speaker 1:disappointedly, I guess she didn't have a very good marriage. Uh, Edwin doesn't seem like a very good dude. He was into sailing. Uh, she was prone to seasickness. So they didn't spend a lot of time together, like with shared passions. Uh, at one point he said that he had committed matrimony and was sentenced to life, uh, for it. So not cool to say something like that. Uh, and when her dad died, she was, she was a daddy's girl for sure. Very close to her father when he died in 1903 on his deathbed. Apparently, she had a flair for writing, and he said, you should go write. Do that. That's what you're passionate about. And over the next year, after he passed away, she wrote and published her first novel, The Flight of the Moth.

9:18Speaker 2:Yes. It's like a society novel about a woman who falls in love with a man who's already engaged. And this is actually one of six novels that she wrote, some of which were really popular. I only saw that one was poorly reviewed. One was mixed reviewed and the other four were pretty well received. So she was a good writer, a fiction writer. And that's what she wanted to be. Unfortunately, as her career's taking off, her marriage is deteriorating. Edwin's love of his ship or boating and her seasickness is not their only incompatibility. One of the big ones I think you could probably point to was him cheating on her all the time. Yeah. And he was the kind who I think didn't make too much of a secret of it. I don't think he talked about it openly because it's not clear whether she had full knowledge of it before he finally told her. But the reason he finally told her is because he was being blackmailed. And rather than submit to this blackmailing scheme that had been going on for a while, he decided he was going to be the hero of their circle of friends, I guess most of whom had been blackmailed

10:27Speaker 2:as well, and expose the blackmailers. The problem is, is like this brought tremendous amounts of shame onto their marriage and onto Emily in particular. Yeah.

10:39Speaker 1:I mean, I guess hell hath no fury like a man being blackmailed. because he was willing to throw it all away and embarrass, I guess he didn't feel too much embarrassment, but definitely embarrass Emily with all this stuff. Later on, she would basically say that they agreed that they would expose the blackmailers as a sort of a team. But according to her biographer, Laura Claridge, that was just something she said to sort of make it look better. Like she had some agency because apparently He just said, hey, I'm doing this and that's going to happen.

11:16Speaker 2:Yeah, he was basically like, heads up, your life's about to get really terrible. I just wanted to let you know the day before it happens. Essentially, he protected her in no way, shape or form on top of humiliating her. So they got divorced the next year and she moved on with the kids. I didn't get the impression that she shed too many tears over it, which is good. I mean, a guy who says he committed matrimony is not exactly a catch, you know?

11:40Speaker 1:Yeah, agreed.

11:41Speaker 2:So how about we take a break and we'll rejoin newly single Happening Lady Emily Post.

11:49Speaker 1:Thank you. Okay, Chuck.

12:20Speaker 2:So Emily has a lot more free time on her hands, not having to keep tabs on her gallivanting husband because she's now divorced. So she threw herself into a book, another novel, Purple and Fine Linen. Could not find anything about what that was about. That had some positive reviews. Two years later, she came out with Woven in the Tapestry that did not impress viewers. That was the one I was talking about that didn't get very well reviewed. And then shortly after that, she released another one, The Title Market, which was about European titled people marrying American wealthy people. And all of these are like people are fascinated by this, just like they are today. It's like.

13:00Speaker 2:inside scoops of how society lives. But one of the things that I think gets overlooked about Emily Post, she was not just dishing gossip. She was not being salacious. She was providing a very clear picture into society without going all Truman Capote and making everybody hate her.

13:21Speaker 1:For sure. So while she's doing this, putting out novel after novel, she's also writing articles in various periodicals. She wrote one for the delineator called What Makes a Young Girl Popular in Society. So at this point, she's she's sort of edging toward what she would eventually get, like, you know, widespread acclaim for kind of writing about some of this stuff, a little bit of society, a little bit of ethics. She published another novel in 1911 called The Eagle's Feather, kind of mixed reviews on that one.

13:54Speaker 1:And then she starts writing articles on like, hey, if you're going to have a baby, here's how you should plan for expenses. She wrote about Tuxedo Park. So, again, she's just sort of inching toward what would be her, you know, her big tome.

14:08Speaker 2:I'm talking about having a baby reminds me of, I guess, a tweet or something I saw recently. It said, how does somebody look at a baby and think I'm going to name that kid Gary?

14:20Speaker 1:Oh, poor Gary's.

14:21Speaker 2:I know. But it is true that it's not a baby's name. You know what I mean? Yeah.

14:26Speaker 1:It's also a name you don't hear a lot anymore for new names.

14:30Speaker 2:True. But it's also a middle-aged man's name, very clearly. But that middle-aged man had to be a baby at one point.

14:38Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true.

14:39Speaker 2:So- There's something that's going on here. Just like she basically told everybody that she and Edwin had kind of collaborated to come up with the way to expose these blackmailers. She also told people that she was kind of pushed into becoming an etiquette writer, an advice columnist, basically. Again, Laura Claridge has basically dug up that. No, she was basically going after it. And even her agent was like, you don't want to do that. It's going to bore you.

15:09Speaker 2:It's beneath you. And she still kept at it until she got a project in. Oh, I don't know. I think it was the lady's home journal. She finally got one or no, it was Collier's, I think one of the two.

15:21Speaker 1:Yes, she she went on a road trip, actually. She wrote another book that was serialized, but not picked up for publishing in book form. So she was like, all right, I need to clear my head. My sons are adults and they're going on a road trip in Europe. They apparently were all super close because it wasn't a drag for mom to come along. And then not only that, after that road trip, Ned was like, hey, I'm going to keep going. They built this new Lincoln Highway. I'm going to do a cross country trip across across the United States. And mom, I can't think of anyone I'd rather have along with me. So she goes on this 45 day trip across country. And that's where Collier is.

16:00Speaker 1:was like, hey, why don't you write about your road trip or whatever? She wrote these articles, compiled into a book later called By Motor to the Golden Gate. But that didn't do so well either.

16:12Speaker 2:No, I read that on that road trip, they had to ship the heavy silver picnic set that they had brought with them back east because it was weighing the car down too much.

16:22Speaker 1:Amazing.

16:23Speaker 2:So I misspoke earlier, Chuck. I said that she was– angling for like a monthly column or something on etiquette. She already had those, like you said, she had a couple of them. But rather than get like that monthly regular one that she wanted, she jumped over that and ended up with a book deal. The thing was, when she got this book deal, I think in 1920, to write a book on etiquette, between the time where she had been writing those columns and 1920, the world had changed drastically. Because World War I had killed so many people and the Spanish flu had killed so many people that the people who were left were like really happy to be alive. And the idea of following books of etiquette was not in the zeitgeist, which is why, like you said, her sons at the time were like, this doesn't seem like the right time for this kind of project.

17:12Speaker 1:Yeah, but she was excited about it. She was like, all right, I'm going to bang this thing out. It'll be a short little book on etiquette with my own spin on it. meticulous researcher and organizer. She was never like, hey, I'm the expert on this thing. I know all of like everything about etiquette. So you got to listen to me. She was asking friends. She was asking random people on the street. She was taking polls like from the public on what they thought to, you know, she wanted to put out something really thorough and well-researched. And so, you know, we like her. And she ended up writing a 619 page book called Etiquette, colon, in society and politics, in business and at home. And it was expensive. It would have been about $ 75 in today's money. And it was super long, but people loved it. It became really popular pretty quickly. And I think she reached the top of the Publishers Weekly nonfiction bestseller list about eight months after it came out.

18:17Speaker 2:Yes. I think they renamed it at some point to the Blue Book of Social Usage, which I don't think is any better a title than the original one. And she wasn't the only one coming out with the Book of Etiquette at the time. But so Jane McGrath, who we used to work with, who is a great writer at How Stuff Works and just a great person all around. She wrote the article that we're basing this episode on. And she was clearly a fan. I don't know if you picked up on that, did you?

18:47Speaker 1:I mean, it seemed like she was into the article.

18:49Speaker 2:For sure. She uses a rival or a competitor who released a book around the same time, a woman named Lillian Eichler, who revised a book of etiquette that had already been out by Emily Holt. And the premise of this was learn this stuff or you'll be embarrassed in social events or whatever. And Emily Post was not like that, as we've said a few times, like, It was everybody should learn etiquette because it's a lot more than just how to use a dinner fork or what to, you know, how to greet somebody. Those are all very important. Those are part of etiquette. But that is not the basis of etiquette. And anybody who says that is wrong, wrong, wrong.

19:28Speaker 2:I think that was the blurb on the dust jacket.

19:31Speaker 1:So, you know, it's 619 pages. So there's a lot in it. But she talks about, you know, how to have a proper conversation with someone. Um, obviously all kinds of things about like invitation cards, thank you notes, how to keep up your house in a way that's presentable. You know, you when introducing people, younger people are introduced to older people. But if you're a gentleman, you are always presented to a lady first. Don't put on airs like I don't want to say mixed messages, but at times she was like, you know, don't put on airs with your vocabulary. But at other times she was like, but you shouldn't say this. You should probably say this.

20:13Speaker 1:And it was just, you know, reflected like what she like I said earlier, what she called good society.

20:19Speaker 2:Yeah. So good society or she says that best society. And this is her her whole philosophy in a nutshell. It's not a fellowship of the wealthy, nor does it seek to exclude those who are not of exalted birth. But it is an association of gentle folk, which is my new favorite word.

20:35Speaker 1:I love it.

20:36Speaker 2:Of which good form and speech, charm of manner, knowledge of the social amenities and instinctive consideration for the feelings of others are the credentials by which society the world over recognizes its chosen members. So to heck with being rich and automatically having manners, you know, and at the same time to heck with being poor and never being able to reach people. a station in good society. And this is just completely turning convention on its head. And this is why Emily Post is revered and loved still today, because that is the ethos that America, at the very least, was like, we're going to keep going with this. This is right up our alley.

21:17Speaker 1:Yeah, like it was that like while she was writing about, you know, how a lady sits in a chair or when to take off your hat in an elevator if you're a gentleman. or how to host a tea or a wedding, but there's this undercurrent of here's how to be a good human. And I think that's why it really like jumped out to me, especially like these days when it just seems like all of this stuff is kind of decorum and all this. And I'm not, I mean, trust me, I'm no big etiquette guy or anything, but I just feel like there's been so much lost in just everyday sort of dealings with people that she, it seemed important to her.

21:57Speaker 2:Well, I think it is. I think even people who are like the most triggering, like purposefully, if you got them on, you know, under the right circumstances and got them to just let their guard down and be normal, they would probably say like, yeah, I think I think, you know, like having good manners is important. Right. And I think the undercurrent of all of this, Chuck, is being courteous to others. That was like the basis of what she's saying. And that, I think, is what's lacking today.

22:26Speaker 2:People are not courteous to other people or we're not courteous to one another like we were years ago. And I mean, 20 years ago, maybe. Yeah, I think it's just it's just courtesy and courteousness and just treating other people like they're a worthwhile human being as a default.

22:45Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. Some of the stuff that she wrote about, obviously, you know, when she's writing about the various, you know, chambermaids and butlers and things like that, like most of that stuff, you can't really apply as much today, I guess, unless you're super wealthy and have a chambermaid. I don't even know if that's still a thing. But a lot of the stuff that she laid down is still like, you know, kind of rules around a wedding and stuff like that, like who pays for what, who like the bride.

23:14Speaker 1:picks the bridesmaids' dresses and the bridesmaids pay for those. Like that stuff is kind of locked in for life. And it's not like she didn't make this stuff up. Like this is what was going on at the time, but she kind of codified it.

23:27Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. She also, one of the other things that she was remarkable in doing was creating characters. Because remember, she had a background in fiction and also a background in living among society as a member of it. So she put these together and she created these characters with– Funny names that really kind of got across what their purpose was in these narratives. The Worldlies, the Kindhearts, I love them. The Wellborns, the Guildings, the Toplofties.

23:57Speaker 1:That's fun.

23:58Speaker 2:There's another one, the Rich and Vulgars and the New Old Riches. each of these played like a different part and she could use them to say like this is what this this group of person this group of people would do and this is why you wouldn't do that um and so in these uh like with these characters i should say she creates narratives like mostly i think i was skimming it and i think every chapter had some sort of like narrative first and then she would break down different like the different components of that narrative like Dining or sending invitations or whatever to be a narrative and then the nuts and bolts of it.

24:38Speaker 1:Yeah, that's such a fun way to do it. Like create a little hypothetical dinner party where some guy, you know, farts when the soup comes. I would say that's probably Mr. Toplofty. And then she can write about how that's not the thing to do. So it grabbed the reader's attention. I think it was way more fun than any etiquette book that had preceded it. And she also wrote some about like fashion. You know, she she was like, you should be like try to keep up with the latest fashions, but don't be sheep either and just follow it blindly.

25:13Speaker 1:But she didn't like what she called frumps or dowds who like didn't make any attempts. So, you know, some of that stuff is is not really etiquette. I think she was just kind of throwing her own two cents in about modern society in a way.

25:24Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. OK, Chuck, let's take a break. When we come back, I really want to talk about my favorite part of the book, The New Ed's Disastrous Dinner Party.

25:34Speaker 1:OK, great. We'll be right back. OK. All right. Let's hear about your favorite part.

26:08Speaker 2:So did you see that little excerpt that I sent you about their disastrous dinner party?

26:14Speaker 1:I did.

26:15Speaker 2:Did it just did it make you laugh out loud at just how horrible this Mrs. Newwood felt?

26:23Speaker 1:I thought it was funny, but LOLing, that's too specific of a ask for me.

26:27Speaker 2:Okay, fair enough. I'll take that. But there was– so Mrs. Newwood throws this dinner party, and at the end, Emily Post explains what– all these different things go wrong. But what Emily Post explained at the end was that what really went wrong is that Mrs. Newwood took too big of a swing right out of the gate to mix my sports metaphors. And that she should have thrown a bunch of little dinner parties with people she was more comfortable with and throwing this really extravagant high end dinner party with the most important people in town. Right. So one of the things that happened was like the plates were collected in like a terrible manner. And so Mrs.

27:07Speaker 2:Worldly is watching this with almost hypnotized fascination as her attention might be drawn to a street accident. against her will. So basically the way that the, the server took up the plates was equal to, uh, looking at a car accident and how you can't look away.

27:23Speaker 1:It's pretty good.

27:25Speaker 2:And it gets so bad that, uh, Mrs. Newwood, uh, she says, there's no use in apologizing. There's no way of dropping through the floor or waking yourself up. So essentially this goes really, really horribly. And, um, it doesn't, there's no resolution. Like Emily Post is like, yeah, that was a really horrible dinner party. Here's how to avoid that kind of stuff. So that was, yeah, I love it too. It's such a great little narrative, but poor Mrs. Newwood, like really goes through the ringer. Yeah.

27:53Speaker 1:And just a great example of why this stood out from the others. Like if you can make a book on etiquette, a fun read, like you've done your job, I think as an author.

28:03Speaker 2:And as a human being, I think as a legend.

28:05Speaker 1:Yeah. And, you know, she also kind of, I feel like would take, That seems like veiled pot shots at her ex-husband because she was writing about how like all about core values and how like she says at one point, like a man is not a gentleman if he doesn't live up to a code of honor. It's more important than any mere dictum of etiquette. Like I think she's definitely taking a veiled shot like, hey, just because you put on airs like you're this, you know, person that maybe came from, you know, Dutch nobility. Like you're not a real man. I doubt if you read this. Who knows if you read it? Probably not.

28:42Speaker 2:Surely one of his like chaps at the sports club or something was like, oh, did.

28:47Speaker 1:You write this quote at the cricket grounds?

28:50Speaker 2:Yeah. And yeah, ultimately, what she was saying was certainly this is a quote. Certainly what one is is a far greater importance than what one appears to be. So, yeah, you can learn all this stuff. And if you're a SOB or a POS or anything like that. It's not going to add up to a lot. People are going to see you eventually for what you are. And you're not going to get invited to dinner parties anymore until you clean up your act.

29:15Speaker 1:That's right. If you're any set of letters, you're probably in trouble.

29:19Speaker 2:Unless you're a BFF.

29:20Speaker 1:That's right. So another kind of cool thing she did was kind of issue a charge to the upper class, which was like, hey, you got to like be cool, dudes and ladies. there are new people coming up the ranks with money. There are other people that don't have money and you need to be nicer to them and more understanding if they're not like living up to whatever standard that you've set. She's talking about in one part about how to be a good guest. And she says, you must learn as it were not to notice if hot soup is poured down your back. Like you have to ignore if you have a bad dinner guest and maybe they, you know, hand them a copy of this book and don't turn your nose up at them.

30:02Speaker 2:Yes, exactly. You can't look down on the lower classes just because they're lower classes or they're not doing this perfectly. And again, I think that was kind of one of the lessons from poor Mrs. New Wed's terrible dinner party, because in it, one of the one of the characters, Mr. Kindheart, leans over and says, cheer up, little girl. It doesn't really matter. And that was nice of the Kindhearts, but in the narrative, it actually seals it for Mrs. Newwood that it was a complete disaster, so much so that Mr.

30:33Speaker 2:Kindheart felt comfortable saying it out loud.

30:35Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. And this is the 1920s, and she closes the book with a bit on understanding that things change and not to condemn the younger generation's for being too fun and too loose with stuff. Like this was a, I mean, to put that out there in print in the 1920s of her saying like, hey, things change. Every generation is going to think the one below them is not doing it right. And that's not the way forward. It's just, it's kind of crazy that she had the foresight.

31:08Speaker 1:Like people today don't have that kind of wisdom, I feel like. It's true.

31:12Speaker 2:You're right. And she also went the other route too. And she basically was speaking to that younger generation and basically saying like, yeah, You guys have your own standards. You're the future. Here's the stuff that's really important that the old guard who you can, you know, feel some resentment or roll your eyes about. They had a lot of stuff that they really worked out over the years that actually is great. Here's that stuff that you need to learn. And then here's the other stuff that doesn't really matter that much. Or here's some of the silly jerks that you're going to encounter along your way.

31:44Speaker 1:And maybe be kind to us when you're explaining new technologies.

31:48Speaker 2:Yeah. For sure. Don't just say move and take over the computer.

31:55Speaker 1:So obviously, you know, I said earlier, pretty soon people would be saying like she wrote the book on etiquette that despite her achievements writing books. And like you said, she had some pretty popular novels. She was the etiquette lady after that book came out three years after it came out. She tried one more novel, a society novel called Parade. And in the advertising campaign, they were just like, hey, this is Emily Post, the etiquette lady, like buy her her new book. And, you know, I think it did well.

32:25Speaker 1:But that was the last novel that she wrote. Like it was pretty clear that people wanted to hear one thing out of her from then on.

32:32Speaker 2:Yeah. Plus, she'd run out of ideas. It was just 300 pages describing a single parade. And the parade wasn't even that great. Oh. So let's bring it down a second here, Chuck, because tragedy strikes in Emily's life in 1927 when her beloved son, Bruce, the deuce, died of a ruptured appendix. He had a stomach ache leading up to it. Plenty of warning, but for some reason was being stubborn and wouldn't go to the hospital, despite his mother pleading with him to him. When he finally went, it was too late. He made it just past 32 years old. So. He died quite young. And, you know, he was one of two. And Emily was quite devastated by this.

33:16Speaker 1:Yeah, as anybody would be, obviously. So she does what a lot of people do and face with this kind of loss. She throws herself into work, tries to learn some new things like gardening. She became really into gardening. And she was like, I'm also, you know, my father was an architect. I'm going to honor him. She was obviously way into design and architecture. So She wrote a textbook on architecture and then continued to just pump out new versions of her etiquette book. I think in the end there were 10 updates and 90 different printings. But she I think the first revision of etiquette appeared after I think the same year her son died. And, you know, she in each version, she would make more concessions. She would kind of roll with the times a little bit and see, you know, it wasn't just a. sort of useless update. She was she was trying to update it and stay current.

34:10Speaker 2:Yeah. Like she dropped, you know, the the proper way to behave in an opium den like that was no longer nearly as relevant.

34:18Speaker 1:Exactly. Do whatever you want in there.

34:21Speaker 2:Pretty much.

34:22Speaker 1:One of the things she obviously had to roll with was like girls and dating and how that changed in the first edition. She talks about like chaperoning on dates and how like that's a good thing because you can be more free as a young woman with a chaperone there. But in the very next edition, she was like, OK, almost like an acknowledgement. She was like, yeah, you know, you can probably go out with a man alone at this point. It's fine. Right. And one of the kind of final things she did, you know, while she was not final thing she did. But as far as other kinds of writing, she put out a book under a pen name. I think she everyone knew her as an etiquette lady. So she wanted to see how she would do if like her name wasn't all over something.

35:03Speaker 2:So.

35:04Speaker 1:She wrote a series of I think they were published in a magazine and then compiled into a book. It was a parody with a pen named Muriel called How to Behave Though a Debutant. And it was some racy stuff. It was very bawdy. It was about a young woman who like talked about sex and all this stuff. And in the book, she talks about like encouraging the older generation to respect the youths and stuff like that and to accept change. But yeah. It was a pretty big hit.

35:35Speaker 1:And then I think a few months after she came out was like, surprise, that's not Muriel. That's me, Emily Post.

35:42Speaker 2:She had sparklers and everything.

35:43Speaker 1:That's right. It's pretty cool.

35:45Speaker 2:Yeah. And everybody was like, oh, well, you're a little racier than we thought, Emily.

35:49Speaker 1:Exactly.

35:51Speaker 2:I want to point out, you said that she wrote a textbook on architecture. That is mind boggling. That's not something the average person walking around could do. You could write a book, be like, this is a pretty neat house. And here's a little bit about it. She wrote a how to be an architect type book called The Personality of a House. And I saw that it was basically like, yeah, this is a good textbook on architecture.

36:17Speaker 1:That's awesome.

36:18Speaker 2:So, yes, she was pretty accomplished. And she was also very much looked up to during her lifetime. She lived till 1960. And 10 years before that, Pageant Magazine, which was named after the failed parade in her book Parade, they had a poll that said that Emily Post is second only to Eleanor Roosevelt for the list of most powerful women in America.

36:42Speaker 1:It's pretty good.

36:44Speaker 2:An etiquette writer. Yeah.

36:47Speaker 1:I mean, like I said, 10 updates and 90 printing. She ended up on radio. She had an advice column called, or I guess just a syndicated column, a daily column called In Good Taste that was in 200 newspapers. So she really was out there, like one of the most famous women in the United States in the 30s and 40s, I think.

37:09Speaker 2:For sure. And then there's the Emily Post Institute, which is still around today, and they're making relevant stuff still today. I think it's largely carried on by her heirs and descendants. And they have stuff on like, You know, when it's okay and not okay to whip out your smartphone and just look at it in the middle of a crowd or in a conversation, like stuff that's relevant. And I came across something about, you know, how to interact with somebody who's grieving. And there is a lot of really good stuff in there. Like sometimes it's best just not to say anything and just be there with them. But they had a list of stuff not to say. And most of it makes sense. A couple of them jumped out at me like, who says this? One is everything happens for a reason.

37:57Speaker 1:Worst.

37:58Speaker 2:This one got me. If somebody whose child has died, don't say you can have other children. Oh, God. Who would say that?

38:09Speaker 1:Yeah. That seems old fashioned.

38:12Speaker 2:This is new. This is on their website right now.

38:14Speaker 1:No, no, no. I mean, it seems like something people like used to say more.

38:19Speaker 2:Oh, yeah. When you had like a dozen kids as farmhands. Sure. It is God's will. You're not ready for that yet. I know just how you feel. And then the kicker. Did he have life insurance? Don't say that to somebody whose spouse has just died.

38:37Speaker 1:Yeah. And in fact, if someone has any tragedy in their life, don't use the word I at all.

38:45Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good one, Chuck. That's a great one.

38:47Speaker 1:Doesn't matter if you've been through the same thing. That is not a time for you to one-up or share your experience.

38:54Speaker 2:Yeah. They said basically if you want to help, you say, I want to blank.

38:59Speaker 1:No, don't say I.

39:00Speaker 2:Whatever specific thing.

39:01Speaker 1:Yeah.

39:02Speaker 2:The person who's standing in front of you.

39:04Speaker 1:Me want to.

39:04Speaker 2:Would like to. And then blank whatever thing you want to help with, like buy groceries or cook dinners or something like that. I'll get in touch with you soon to try to figure out the best time for you. So it's not like let me know if I can do anything because the person's not going to let you know if you can do anything, even if they need you to. You're saying I'm going to help you with this. I'll get in touch to make it as easy as possible on you. You don't have to do anything right now.

39:28Speaker 2:I just wanted to put that on your radar.

39:30Speaker 1:Yeah. Bye.

39:31Speaker 2:Nice. Okay. Can I give one more Emily Post quote that I think really kind of holds true today, especially in this day and age that we've kind of been talking about? Yeah.

39:43Speaker 1:Okay.

39:43Speaker 2:Here it is. You ready?

39:45Speaker 1:Yes.

39:45Speaker 2:The best ingredients for likableness. So this is how to be likable. A happy expression of countenance, sure. An unaffected manner, like you said, not putting on airs. And a sympathetic attitude, caring about other people's life, lives. That's it. That's all you have to do for people to like you.

40:04Speaker 1:Yeah, I love it.

40:06Speaker 2:Okay, well, that's it for Emily Post. And Chuck said he loves it, so obviously it's time for Listener Mail.

40:15Speaker 1:We heard from a few Canadians about a mispronunciation that we're going to correct. Hey, guys, not trying to start a Josh fight here, even though I think covering the real one would be a hilarious short stuff. Josh is salt of the earth. How about that? Whose mind and sense of humor remind me of my own. But what I'm afraid is that some Canadians might sue Josh for pronouncing Sue St. Marie as salt St. Marie.

40:44Speaker 2:How do you know the Canadians aren't mispronouncing it?

40:47Speaker 1:Good point. Hey, guys, I know you never look at Wikipedia, but here's a link to that article, which begins with the pronunciation. But I'm just kidding. No Canadian would sue you, of course. It was just a play on words. Love the show. That is from Terrence Ward.

41:01Speaker 2:Thank you, Terrence. And you hit peak Canadian when you explained that you were joking about Canadians suing us. So we love you even more for that now.

41:09Speaker 1:That's right.

41:10Speaker 2:If you want to be like Terrence and show off your Canadian-ness, we love that kind of thing. You can put it in an email and send it to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.

41:23Speaker 1:Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.