Stop Baptizing People!

0:00Speaker 1:What's up? I'm Granger.

0:01Speaker 2:Hey, I'm the Ant-Man. I'm Tyler.

0:03Speaker 1:I'm Parker. This is the 99 for 1 podcast. Thanks for being here. We think about the parable in Luke 15 where Jesus said, how many of you that had a hundred sheep, if you lost one, would not leave the 99 for the one? We think in terms of that, mimicking, following Jesus and thinking through the one lost sheep. So that's why we want to always include the gospel, because in Romans 1, Paul says that the gospel is the power of God for salvation. It is not something that we could convince you into. And the gospel is the mechanics, the hearing of it, that actually changes a heart of stone to a heart of flesh.

0:47Speaker 3:Combining two of those stories together, the lost sheep and the prodigal son, for a long time identified with the brother, going, I'm the one who's just been faithful. Why are we so excited about this other guy? And then I realized I wasn't him, and I was the brother that left, or I was the one that was the sheep that was gone.

1:05Speaker 1:It's very interesting. Then it becomes, oh, now I appreciate this story much better. That is fascinating. Yeah. We should now, as believers now, we should think of ourselves as the brother, the older brother, because we quickly forget, as we were the one brought in back into the fold. And by the way, we shouldn't see that as straying from the gospel, like you were a believer and then you left. That's not quite what that parable is talking about. Jesus says that parable because the Pharisees are grumbling that Jesus is going to sinners. Right. Okay? So we think of the one as unsaved. And then the one comes and is saved.

1:55Speaker 1:But now once you're saved, we immediately, it's crazy how fast we become the older brother. Oh, that guy? Yeah. We're throwing a party for that guy? Yeah. Yeah, that's fascinating. The story's also in Matthew 18 as well. We typically talk about Luke 15, but it's also Matthew 18. How are you guys doing? Good. This is the one time of the week we sit down in the same room together. See everybody. Everybody's going a million directions.

2:25Speaker 3:Contemplate our fandom of our football teams. How's your high school?

2:31Speaker 1:High school, sorry. High school doing? High school's good. High school's good. High school's 2-2 right now. Ant-Man is the voice of Salado, Texas football on TV. You guys knew that, right? He's the play-by-play guy.

2:45Speaker 4:Yeah.

2:46Speaker 1:And this is your first full year of varsity football. Varsity football, yeah. It's really cool.

2:51Speaker 3:I did basketball last season, varsity guys and girls. This year, doing football, basketball. And then next year, I think we're going to throw in volleyball. Volleyball is really good at Salado. Like, they may be state champs. So I'm kind of like, oh, I wish we could have done that this year.

3:08Speaker 1:Yeah, no kidding.

3:09Speaker 4:I remember growing up in Dallas, and everyone looked forward to being a seventh grader. because that was the first time that your games were televised on the local Dallas station that our high school had. And there was two announcers, and they did every game seventh grade through varsity and seniors. And that was the first time that you could see yourself on TV. And I remember the feeling of hearing my name called by an announcer for the first time when I was in seventh grade. And it was the same voices that did Tyler's 10 years before it was the coolest feeling. So I hope that's an encouragement to you that like, it's just like literally makes your whole world as a kid to hear your, uh, to hear your name called. I guess they probably don't record it and then televise it, but.

3:59Speaker 3:They can't live on YouTube afterwards. It's a film sharing thing. But what is cool is that we put together a highlight reel every week. And then I include some of the VO, some of the play by play in there, especially if it's a big play, like a, there's a guy named King David Tobe.

4:15Speaker 1:That's his name. Okay.

4:16Speaker 3:You do all, I'm not doing that every time he's KDT. So he got a nickname game one. And, but just to, you know, I thought, you know, he'll, I hope he does appreciate it. At least, you know, whether he plays next level or not, it's having those memories to look back and hearing his name called.

4:31Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Parker, the video you just made for you life. Um, you're going to shoot Fred with the propane tank. And then you instead, uh, had a change of heart and took him out, took him to the park and you guys ate ice cream together. That had such an impact on my kids. Maverick wanted to watch that over and over, like eyes wide. Like, and then he went out in the front yard and he started saying, started saying, you know, like repeating things you were saying about eating ice cream with Fred and skipping rocks.

4:59Speaker 4:But those of you who are very confused, I have a YouTube channel called Yee Yee Life and we shoot anything and everything with guns and we see what happens. And Fred is our ballistics test dummy who sits behind the objects that we shoot. So we see if the objects would stop the bullet from getting to Fred. So just FYI.

5:16Speaker 5:That was one of my favorite videos in the 20 years we've made videos. I don't know if that we've ever done as a bold statement.

5:26Speaker 1:There are two in this campaign. That's one of them. And also the one you did with the paper delivery. Oh yeah.

5:33Speaker 2:Yeah.

5:33Speaker 5:But I always, you can have, you can have, you can like a video, but, I, you, it has to go viral. It has to hit like for me to like, I can appreciate a good video like that, but I also need the other aspect of it.

5:47Speaker 2:It's like, it's got to impact.

5:48Speaker 5:And, but this video was, I didn't even, it was just super entertaining. And at the end I was like, Oh, we're promoting a shirt too. I was like, this is, this is the best like marketing for a t-shirt to sell video that I've ever seen. Anyway.

6:03Speaker 1:Yeah. I knew that because of the way my kids reacted to it.

6:06Speaker 4:Yeah.

6:06Speaker 1:Especially Maverick, like eyes wide open. He said there was something about his eyes. It's a mannequin with no eyes. Expression never changes.

6:18Speaker 4:Are they going to talk about baptism?

6:20Speaker 1:Yeah, we're going to talk about baptism. Today, I'm heading to Monroe, Louisiana to the Duck Dynasty guys, the Unashamed podcast guys. I'm leaving right after this podcast. Tyler's not going with me. You're not going to do it? He made sure to tell me, hey, I'm not going with you today. He just said that. I was like, I know. He goes, how did you know? And I said, because you never go. And he goes, hang on a second. I do go sometimes with you. Will you go on the Duck Call Room? I don't know. I don't know what that is. I've never watched a Duck Dynasty. You haven't?

6:58Speaker 1:You've never watched the shows? I've never watched any show ever of Duck Dynasty, no. I don't think I'd lead with that when you get there. Have you guys? Well, you know of it. Of course I know those. I mean, I know those guys, and I've had conversations with those guys.

7:10Speaker 4:I've never watched a full episode, but I've seen, like, the clips of, like, side.

7:13Speaker 1:Are we talking about you've never watched the podcast or you've never watched the show? Never watched the show.

7:18Speaker 2:Whoa.

7:20Speaker 5:I watched it back in 2013 when it was real popular. I remember that year because I was living in a certain house, and I remember watching it.

7:27Speaker 3:We got tired of garbage on TV and went back and started the whole thing over and watched all of it.

7:32Speaker 1:By the way, I'm not trying to act like– some like indie rock punk rock like i don't watch things like that i'm not saying that it's just for whatever reason it never it never came in yeah to my view and and i think those guys are great i know those guys personally and so it's not it's it's nothing weird or personal or like punk rock about.

7:53Speaker 3:It what's a little different too i would imagine if you know them personally watching a show about them like you know that would be weird you know.

8:00Speaker 4:Watching a show it would be like if It wouldn't be that big a deal if Willie wasn't like, yeah, I listen to Granger's songs every day.

8:06Speaker 1:That wouldn't be. No, it wouldn't be weird at all. In fact, people tell me that all the time. Like, I just be honest with you, I don't think I've ever listened to your music. And I'm not like, oh, I'm offended by this. I can understand that. I was joking.

8:17Speaker 3:I'm not leading with that. But no, I think Psy would be a fun conversation. Just this Uncle Psy old man doesn't care about what he says, what people think.

8:27Speaker 1:He's just past all that, you know.

8:28Speaker 2:Yeah.

8:29Speaker 1:So I'm going out there to do the podcast. I'm going to go out there tonight, but the podcast is tomorrow morning. And then... That's with Jep and Al, with Jason Al. I think so. I think that, yeah. And then that's at 10 a.m. My flight is out of Monroe at like 5.40 p.m. So I need to hold up in a coffee shop or something because I'm also preaching at our church. So I really need to... I need... I'm going to need this solid five hours. It'll be great.

8:58Speaker 1:But I just need the right space. I wish this podcast was coming out now and people could actually recommend a place to be. But I need just to chill out, quiet, put the headphones in, concentrate, and think through this sermon. They have duck blinds. Go get one of those. Be a good place. By the way, I had a friend that said ducks aren't flying like they used to out there anymore. Which doesn't surprise me. Birds fly differently than they have. When Tyler and I were growing up, we'd go out to Texas Panhandle and shoot pheasant. In fact, there's one in Mom's house right now from those days.

9:38Speaker 1:They don't fly out there anymore. Isn't that crazy?

9:41Speaker 2:Really?

9:41Speaker 1:You shot them all. I don't know what happened. It's scary. It's scary that it changes. Okay, so I am getting a baptism because I just got back from I was going to say, I just got baptized. I'm getting baptized. I just got back from South Carolina. and I did a run where I did North Dakota for one day, South Carolina for three days. Met a lot of people in both of those states. And not one time did this happen, but several times this happened. I'll protect the names and protect the places because it's personal things. But I was talking to one guy, having a conversation. This is normal. And I want everyone to kind of test this with themselves. Normal testimony type conversation. We're sitting in a room together, just him and me. And to me, small talk, especially in ministry, small talk is, tell me how the Lord saved you. That's a normal thing. This particular guy, I said ministry. I'm not saying that this guy was in ministry. I'm not saying that. But this guy said, well, I accepted Jesus when I was 15 and was baptized. And then I had a long, long time after that of just rebellion and sin. And ended

11:21Speaker 1:up running around on my wife and was unfaithful to her. And after that, I was brought in by the church and a lot of friends, and I just really saw my ways and saw that I actually wasn't a Christian. And so I repented, and I just really dove into my church. And about a year after that, I just felt like the Lord, I felt something change in me. And I suddenly felt the guilt of my old ways and the wickedness that I'm talking, trying to talk like him, wickedness that I was in. And I feel like that's, that's when the Lord saved me. I was like, when is, when, so when was that? He said, 2023. And I was like, praise God, man. Praise God for his faithfulness, for turning a wicked sinner like all of us have once been and turning us to himself and And I said, so then you got baptized? And he goes, oh, no, I haven't. No, I didn't. I was baptized when I was 15. So I said, well, I just want to repeat back to you what you said. You were baptized at 15, but then you were not saved. And then many, many years later, you were saved. Doesn't that mean you need to get baptized?

12:43Speaker 1:And he goes, huh. Ain't nobody asked me that question. He was like baffled, you know, looking up into the ceiling. I guess I reckon you're right. Just think, you know, like the gears are turning. And I said, he said, you think I should? I said, I know you should. This is not like I'm suggesting. This isn't like a 60, give me a 60% chance here. I know you should. And partly this is conversations that we have as elders. All the time. And I wanted him to be sure and be clear here. This is not, there's no shame in this. This is black and white. You're saved. You get baptized. And it's also not shameful to look back and go, what about that first time? He goes, but I was baptized. So you want me to get re-baptized?

13:44Speaker 1:I'm like, no, there's no such thing as re-baptized. It's black and white. you're only baptized once. Other than that, you're just getting wet. And he was like, oh, I reckon you're right. He goes, my pastor's right out here. I said, I think you should talk to him. So he leaves. He goes and talks to the pastor. I talk to other people, other things going on. He comes back after a while and he goes, I talked to my pastor. He just wanted to make sure that you're not saying that baptism is what saves me. I said, No, sir, I'm not saying that. But the Lord Jesus, from his own mouth, said, do this. He commands us to be baptized.

14:30Speaker 1:And he goes, oh. Well, my pastor said that, yeah, that he'd love to hear my story, which is interesting if you think about what that means. But he'd love to hear more of my story than maybe I should be. So long story short, he texted me yesterday And he said, October 3rd or whatever that– October 4th, whatever that Sunday is, I'm going to be baptized. And I was like, praise the Lord. Praise the Lord for his faithfulness, dragging you to obedience. So anyway, I thought that was– that's not an interesting conversation for me. Y'all know me. I have these conversations with everyone all the time. It's nothing for me to dive into it. conversation that might seem deep, but it's actually just, I enjoy these kind of, when did the Lord save you? When were you baptized? Where do you belong as a church member? Who's pastoring you right now? These are very normal questions. But that happened two or three times in this area. I ran into it Time after time. I think there's going to be people getting baptized here this next month. Four or five people getting baptized. Just because of the conversations. Because of

15:45Speaker 1:these conversations. Once again, I don't think they're special conversations. I think they're just very normal Christian conversations. But I've got little alarm bells that go off in my brain that if I hear someone mention baptized, and then I hear later them mention salvation, and I don't get that second chime of another baptism, you know. then I'm going to ask it. Yeah. Because it's almost like once I get that information, now I'm somewhat responsible before the Lord.

16:16Speaker 1:If I'm not going to bring it up. Of bringing it up. Yeah.

16:21Speaker 4:Because you would identify as somebody who believes that Scripture teaches what they would call believer's baptism, right? Which would be different than what, I don't know how much in this you want to break down for the people that are maybe confused right now of like, you know, Catholicism baptizes children. Presbyterians baptize children. Lutherans sprinkle children. There's like a million different routes we could go here without overcomplicating things too much.

16:52Speaker 1:Let me pause just right here and say, I understand that tension. I'll get back to you, Parker. But I want to say, I understand that tension, and I'm not trying to... This is not going to be a full dissertation on baptism. I don't want this particular podcast to be a full disclosure of Granger Smith's view on baptism. That would take a long time, and we would have to walk through the Bible through a lot of pages. So I'm not talking about Catholics and Presbyterians and Lutherans.

17:19Speaker 1:I'm talking about people that I met that said, I was baptized at 15 or 18 or 21, and then I recognized later I was not a believer. And so to that specific person, holding what I believe to be true and holding them to their own belief in believer's baptism, like you said, where do we stand with baptism? You know what I mean? Does that make sense?

17:49Speaker 4:Yeah, it's not so much that you want to cover, I guess, the different doctrinal beliefs of baptism in itself. This is just a particular person that was baptized and then believes that they fell away Particularly what you're talking about is maybe some of the dangers of what they call spontaneous baptism. In other words, potentially baptizing somebody prematurely.

18:16Speaker 1:That's right. I'm not sitting next to a Presbyterian on a plane and I say, when did the Lord save you? And he says, you know, 23, recognize my sin, blah, blah, blah. And I'm not looking at the Presbyterian going, so baptism? You know? Because I understand that he has a, he has a biblical foundation behind his view of baptism.

18:34Speaker 4:Maybe just give the very short dumbed down explanation of what you mean by that. What would, what would his different views of baptism? I mean, and you could just say, we don't want to go into that, but just because you brought it up and someone's going to be confused.

18:47Speaker 1:Yeah, this is good.

18:48Speaker 4:Why would you not explain to a Presbyterian why he should be baptized again?

18:53Speaker 1:Here's the, here's why. This is what I think I'm trying to say. Um, I will know in the conversation about conversion, which is why I lead with, when did the Lord save you? I will know if that person is grounded biblically in their conviction and how they believe, or if the person is just flippantly not really knowing. And so a Presbyterian, regardless of how we are going to go to the doctrine of baptism, you know, Which is a second-tier doctrine, y'all. This is not first-tier. Meaning?

19:30Speaker 1:Meaning it's not salvific.

19:33Speaker 4:And if you disagree about baptism, you're not going to.

19:35Speaker 1:Go to hell. This is orthodox view that salvation is not tied up into baptism. This is orthodox view. I know that there's fundamentalist groups that have risen in the last 150 years that have started to tie baptism with salvation. but you would be outside of orthodoxy to believe that. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone, okay? Baptism is a massively important obedient act that professes that faith publicly and It is a representation physically of the gospel of someone that's being washed by their sins, and it is also a promise by that person that they will now be committed to one body. So that's what baptism does, and that's what it means. And so I'm not going to argue the mode. The mode is how you were baptized, okay? So I'm not going to argue that, and I'm also not going to argue... Fundamentally, what is baptism if you're thinking about sprinkling a baby? I'm not going to argue those two things, mode and the fundamentals.

20:46Speaker 1:But what I'm getting, here's my whole thing with this dude in South Carolina. He was telling me, I don't understand any of it. I don't really know what you're talking about.

20:57Speaker 4:The Presbyterian would have biblical grounds and convictions on, hey, I interpret the New Testament and baptism as this.

21:05Speaker 1:This is why I did it.

21:06Speaker 4:I'm walking in repentance of faith, blah, blah, blah. Whereas you're talking about almost somebody who just kind of got baptized when they were a kid and then fell away, didn't show any fruit, actually didn't have any evidence that they were converted. And your point is... Maybe you shouldn't have gotten baptized in the first place because maybe you weren't saved.

21:30Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe my point is to tell churches stop baptizing so many people without knowing who they are or knowing what their conversion story is.

21:39Speaker 3:Yeah, I could see that because there's a lot. They have, like, this Sunday, you've never been baptized, you want to get baptized, come on. And there's no conversation with that person whatsoever.

21:47Speaker 1:Yeah. Oh, look at that. They all got swimsuits and t-shirts on. Everybody pop in. Most will tell you, you got to fill out a form. Yeah. Well, you got to say, you know, why.

21:56Speaker 2:Do you want to do this?

21:57Speaker 1:But there is really no depth in those conversations. Otherwise, I don't think we would end up with as many people. This is crazy. Think about this for a second. This is probably not an issue in other countries, nearly as much as it is in America. How many times did you get wet? Once.

22:19Speaker 2:Tyler?

22:20Speaker 1:Twice. Once. Okay, I'm twice. Twice. So 50% of this room got wet twice. And that's probably most.

22:30Speaker 5:You weren't baptized as a baby? Or like as a 8, 9, 10? Mom didn't do that with you?

22:36Speaker 4:No, mom told me that dad told her that he didn't want to pressure me and it needed to be my decision. And I never did it because I didn't want to. Until I was 27. Let me ask you a question on that thought right there, too. Someone who is a believer, but they... I think I know the answer, but I want to ask you to help explain for someone else.

23:00Speaker 1:They're a believer.

23:01Speaker 3:They don't want the spectacle of being up in front of people and getting baptized.

23:04Speaker 1:What do you say to them? I know that they're not being obedient. I get that part of it. So the spectacle, how do you describe spectacle? In front of people doing stuff? In front of people. You're not talking about... You're not talking about smoke and lights and big band, and you're not talking about that spectacle. You're talking about being individualized. They don't like attention being on them. Yeah. Yeah. Period. That ends up being a heart problem and something that we should have– we should listen and have compassion on.

23:34Speaker 1:But at some level, historically, baptism has been not just for the person. So to think, I don't want to be in front of people, it turns it into– somewhat selfish thing because proclaiming Christ and showing with the water the example of being a symbol of the gospel and proclaiming your obedience to Christ and his church is something that must be done publicly and not privately. And so wrestling with someone that is perhaps embarrassed to do that, it ends up being, there's a heart sickness in there that needs to be worked on. And historically in the church, no, let me say that again. Historically in the Baptist tradition or anti-Baptist tradition, many people have come to faith by happening upon a baptism at a river. Like, what are these people doing? and they walk up to the river, and they see someone in there with the pastor, and they go into the water, and they come back up, and the family's there, and they hear the words proclaimed, they hear the gospel, and people clap, and there's something that starts stirring in that person. They go, I want to know more about this. This is weird, but cool,

25:02Speaker 1:and I think I want to know more about it. There have been many people that have seen that. So to say, I don't want to do this in front of people is denying that evangelistic opportunity.

25:11Speaker 3:And it's almost a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way that you don't want it to be about you, and now it's becoming about you and not about.

25:19Speaker 5:Then you've got to ask the question, are they really saved? Because I think the most important thing to add to that conversation is, man, Jesus is the one making it happen.

25:28Speaker 1:Right.

25:29Speaker 2:Right? Like, even you and me, like, whoever....

25:33Speaker 5:It's a little uncomfortable for anybody to get up in front of 20 people, 100 people, 1,000 people, whatever your church is. Maybe you have to say your testimony maybe you know yeah then give it's uncomfortable for anybody unless you're a public speaker or something that's used to doing it so like um i i saw you know i've seen before somebody that had you know severe anxiety and uh severe like um fright of getting in front of people and did it and it's like to the point of like stirring and others like man this is awesome Like, this girl has, like, never gotten in front of people, is, like, scared to death, but the Lord is doing it through her.

26:15Speaker 2:Because of him.

26:16Speaker 5:Like, she's saved because of him, and the Lord is helping her do these things that seems impossible.

26:24Speaker 1:It's an amazing thing to see someone knowing that they're struggling with insecurity and that they're kind of introverted, and to see that is, you know, like, it feels... It fills a glass eye real quick of a grown man to see that. It's almost like watching a young couple get married and you think of your own wedding day and what that meant to you. You see the bride come in, the young bride, and you think about when you saw your bride come in in the same way you remember your baptism and the water falling off of you as if you've been made clean by the gospel because Christ died on a cross, lived a perfect life, and now becomes that propitiation, which means that word in the Bible means like satisfaction. God's wrath is satisfied in Christ that you deserved. It's satisfied on him. And so now as he raises from the grave on the third day and says, all who would turn to me and believe and be baptized as a symbol of this, these people would be with me eternally. And so you see baptism differently when you see it in that grand scheme.

27:45Speaker 5:Yeah, I was going to say, I remember everything about the second baptism of me and nothing about the first, which is kind of everything we're talking about.

27:54Speaker 1:Which is why I kind of push back again.

27:56Speaker 2:I remember every detail.

27:57Speaker 1:Even that idea of second. There is no second baptism.

27:59Speaker 2:Well, yeah, yeah. I've never heard that before. That's great.

28:02Speaker 1:That's good. What do Methodists do?

28:05Speaker 2:They whore.

28:07Speaker 1:So that may, I may have, that may have been done to me when I was a kid.

28:11Speaker 4:My old pastor, Mark Dever, used to say when people say, so you're saying I need to get baptized again? And he says, no, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that you were never baptized. You may have gotten, you may have gotten wet, but you were not baptized because we would see the New Testament as belief. And then following belief comes baptism.

28:27Speaker 2:When were you baptized?

28:27Speaker 1:I forgot. The first time or second? I'm kidding.

28:32Speaker 2:No, when did you get baptized? 2022?

28:33Speaker 1:Two or three? Yeah.

28:40Speaker 5:2023?

28:40Speaker 2:That's when I got baptized.

28:42Speaker 1:Were you at Emmaus? Maybe it was two. Yeah, at Emmaus. Marshall baptized me.

28:46Speaker 4:So a church has on the screen 2,400 baptisms this year and counting. They say who wants to get baptized. They get everybody in a room.

28:56Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, Tyler, two. Sorry.

28:59Speaker 4:They play a video. They get you your T-shirt. They march you out there. They dunk you. What's wrong with that? God's really moving in this place. Look at all these people getting baptized. Look at all these numbers for the year. What's wrong with you, Granger? You don't like people turning to Jesus?

29:17Speaker 1:Matthew 28, Jesus gives us what we commonly call the Great Commission. It's the last command of our Lord. And he says, go therefore into all nations and making disciples, basically. So what does it mean to make a disciple? He tells us, baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded. And then he says, and I will be with you till the end of the age. That's That's the last bonus of joy we get from this. But to make a disciple is to baptize them and to teach them. We also know through Matthew 16 and 18 and the keys of the kingdom that are given to Peter, that the apostolic authority that is given to the church, we know that Jesus is saying, Baptism is given to the church. And obviously discipleship is given to the church. So in that instance, that's why we know through the practice of baptism, it's always been connected to the church. It's what we call it a church ordinance. Same with the Lord's Supper. Those are the two ordinances, the Lord's Supper and baptism. And so when baptism is given to the church, then it

30:57Speaker 1:cannot be separate from the church.

30:59Speaker 5:So what does that mean? Like, can you go down to the river and get baptized by your buddy?

31:06Speaker 2:Or the ocean? You know, you see all these videos.

31:08Speaker 1:This conversation is going to trigger many people because this is widely disputed. But I think we could look to Scripture, and I would say for the people that want to hear me on this, I would say, thank you. And for the people that don't want to hear me on this, I would say, hang with us. And I understand... I am by no means saying that I don't recognize there are many opinions about this. But I think in a time other than now when we could open the Bible and go through many, many examples, we see baptism connected to the church, and it would be unwise to take your buddy down to the river and baptize him.

31:51Speaker 2:But that's what they did in the Bible, right? No.

31:55Speaker 1:No, there's one example we get of the Ethiopian eunuch. And it's the famous story of, well, there's some water, you know, and that's the only time we see that happen like that in isolation. Well, I'm not saying isolation, a part of a church. Yeah, so the Ethiopian.

32:18Speaker 5:Like when John the Baptist was baptizing everybody in the river or the sea.

32:23Speaker 2:Jordan River.

32:26Speaker 1:Yeah.

32:27Speaker 2:Was that a church community?

32:28Speaker 1:That was pre-Christianity.

32:30Speaker 2:Or was that... Okay, so pre-Christianity. That was Jewish.

32:33Speaker 5:Because he was telling anybody that wants to get baptized, right?

32:35Speaker 2:Yeah.

32:37Speaker 1:Yeah. John the Baptist wasn't saying that, though. Well, anybody who wants to get baptized.

32:42Speaker 2:What was he saying?

32:42Speaker 1:The Bible says that people came from all over Israel. They came to him. They were coming to him, which is a very interesting study to think about. How do they even know? Like, this is pre-social media. This is pre-radio. He had a blog. Yeah, pre-vlogs or blogs. People were coming from all over. Word of mouth, right? Yeah. So then when we get into the early church, so we're talking post-resurrection, and we see the development of the book of Acts, it's very fascinating to follow baptism. And we see first Pentecost, and we see 3,000 baptized right there.

33:23Speaker 1:The church is just forming. But by the time we get to the Ethiopian, you could see that there is no church in Ethiopia. There would be no one to baptism. So that's why Philip couldn't say to the Ethiopian, hey, man, you've been saved. The Lord saved you. So now you need to be baptized. And we believe that baptism is only connected to the church. So make sure when you get home, go ahead and hook up with your pastor and get... Because there wasn't one. Obviously, that wasn't going to happen. So... So we do see oddball examples, but I think we could explain that an oddball example like this wouldn't become the rule or start to overweigh a practice.

34:03Speaker 1:And we see this also in church history. So we see that people in church history interpret it that way, and they said, baptism belongs to the church. It should be administered by the church. And not just a pastor, but by the church.

34:16Speaker 2:That's what I was going to ask. So if it's your buddy....

34:21Speaker 5:Baptizing you in your swimming pool. It probably doesn't count. Pastor in the swimming pool? Does it have to be in the church building?

34:30Speaker 1:I wouldn't want the pastor in the swimming pool either.

34:34Speaker 2:Because I think... Does it need to be in front of witnesses? If so, how many?

34:38Speaker 1:That also... There's nothing that we would say... We couldn't put a number on it, but it would be disconnected from the church. Ask yourself... Is this connected to the church? What if you invited the church members to your house in your pool? Now you're outside of the church gathering. You know what I mean? Like, the church gathers, and this is— What if you don't have access to a church? It's the same argument with the Lord's Supper. Like, why wouldn't, when we just have a bunch of church members at our house, why wouldn't we pass around the bread and the wine? What if you don't have access to a church in another country, and you're doing a gathering in the house? In a very rare example that you're sending out a missionary— to a remote area with no church, then I believe he would be baptized in the local church that's sending him, but still connected to the gathering.

35:31Speaker 5:Because remember, it depends on how we define church. I mean, like, countries that are, like, secret. Like, there is no church. You can't meet publicly.

35:38Speaker 4:The problem is you're... Sorry, I'm asking a ton of questions. The problem is, like, Granger's primary point was for the majority of people listening that just got baptized as kids and then fell away, and what do they do?

35:49Speaker 1:I mean, that's... That's ours. this is fine.

35:51Speaker 4:Maybe we can ask about the exceptions.

35:53Speaker 1:You're asking, you're asking for rare examples of crazy exceptions, but if you're, if you're, we'll just run down this last rabbit hole. If you're asking about, well, I'm, I'm, I'm asking, I see it's a ton of stuff on social media over the years of somebody in a pool, somebody in the ocean, somebody in a river.

36:08Speaker 2:Like I see that a lot.

36:09Speaker 1:I would say stop it. I would say to the person in, in Iran, I don't know why we always go to that country on this podcast, but say you're in Iran and you're in a, private church, excuse me, a secret church. And the secret church is six people. And someone comes in and they've been evangelized. They're a neighbor to one of the six people and they bring in a neighbor and they just, they are converted and they love the Lord. Then those six people would put that person in the bathtub at the gathering, you know?

36:44Speaker 1:That's what you would do. You would go in their backyard and there's there's a little pool, or I mean, a little pond or whatever in their backyard, and they would put the person with the church, but that would still be connected to the church. You see what I mean? But yeah, to Parker's point, I never wanted to come into this podcast and argue the validity or the mode of baptism. I'm just saying, what sometimes baptism does is it reveals a A weak understanding of the church.

37:15Speaker 5:Putting this all together in my head, listening to all this, from back to the beginning of your buddy in South Carolina.

37:21Speaker 1:These comments are going to be crazy.

37:22Speaker 5:My questions about, can you get baptized in a pool? The underlying theme of all this seems to be, man, people just don't have the biblical wisdom and knowledge of what we're actually called to do.

37:37Speaker 1:Right?

37:38Speaker 2:And so my mind goes to like, You mentioned something earlier.

37:42Speaker 3:What he said, too, is this is not a problem outside. For the most part, this is not a problem outside of the United States. This is almost like a trendy thing.

37:52Speaker 1:To the interesting point about Iran, I don't think they'd mess that up. I think they would just read their Bibles. And do what it says. Here's the example. Here's what we do.

38:01Speaker 2:So we're saying that it's an American problem?

38:03Speaker 1:I think it's growing. We're exporting our McDonald's and our diet. And we're also exporting these bad ideas.

38:11Speaker 5:So I think in my mind as I'm working through it, for anybody that's listening, and you mentioned earlier that I'd like to, the pastor told him, I'd like to hear your story sometime. Oh, okay, that's the problem. So anybody listening, it's like.

38:24Speaker 1:He doesn't already know the story.

38:25Speaker 2:Do you have a relation?

38:26Speaker 5:Do you read your Bible, obviously? But do you have a relation? Are you in a healthy local church? We always go to that because it's so important. Do you have a relationship with your pastor? Have this conversation with your pastor. Like you said, with Marshall, I did the same thing with my pastor. We went to coffee and he said, tell me, tell me your story. And we worked through it together, told him I was baptized when I was, or I was wet, got wet when I was 12. He's like, yeah, okay, cool. I think, I think we should probably, you should probably get baptized now.

38:55Speaker 5:Don't you think? I was like, yeah, I think so too. I think you're right because I wasn't saved until, you know. So local church, pastor, talk to them, tell them, tell them your story, tell them your testimony.

39:09Speaker 1:And there could also be years that go by. Like with me, there was a few years that went by. We have a guy in our church that there was like 30 years. 30 years went by, and he wasn't baptized, and we baptized him. Praise the Lord. No shame in that. It was poor discipling that somebody wasn't pouring into him. I don't put that... on him. I don't put that on... I don't put that on anything else besides I say, praise the Lord for his faithfulness. Obedience has been done. Amen.

39:39Speaker 5:And if you can't talk to your pastor, you're at the wrong church. Yeah, it's gonna hurt people's feelings too, but if you can't, call, if you can't text, if you can't set up a meeting, if you can't talk to an elder or a leader at your church, ideally you're a pastor, you're at the wrong church.

39:55Speaker 1:I think the point I'm just wanting to bring up is if we started this conversation talking about 99 for one, and if there's one person out there that goes, you know, my story is like what Granger was saying. I was baptized as a teenager or as a kid or as an eight-year-old, whatever, and I ran from the Lord I've come to know that now as being unsaved, not a rededication. I don't like that word. I wish we could lose that word, rededicating my life to Christ. It's very much an American thing. The church I spoke at recently sent around cards and they said, let's check the box if you want to be saved, check the box if you want to be rededicated to the Lord. check the box if you want to be baptized. I just assume throw those cards.

40:50Speaker 2:Away, man.

40:50Speaker 1:It's like renewing your vows. Just throw the card away.

40:53Speaker 2:Is there multiple choice? Saved, rededicated, or baptized?

40:56Speaker 1:Yeah, don't even give people the choice of what rededicating your life means. And I had this conversation with many, and I just said, you're dead and you're alive. You're dead as a doornail or you're alive. God makes you alive. There is no in-between, there's no... Yeah, I was definitely saved and baptized, and then And then 20 years of running and denying him and debauchery. And then there was this weird moment when I heard the gospel or I was reading the Bible and all of a sudden I felt different and I felt like conviction over the sin.

41:31Speaker 1:And I felt like I wanted to live a life for Christ. I'm like, brother, that's called conversion. That's called salvation.

41:38Speaker 2:Being born again.

41:38Speaker 1:That's not the rededicating your life. You were born again. And so if you're listening right now and you're the one And you go, yeah, I was born again. I believe I was born again in 2021 or whatever. And even though I was baptized when I was nine, I say, let's get you back to your church and have a conversation with your pastor about this and tell him you want to be obedient to what scripture tells us and be baptized. One more thing. I do see a trend of people being baptized and Because of trauma in their life.

42:19Speaker 1:As a result of trauma. What do you mean? I've never heard that. There's a trend where drug dealers come clean and they reach their one-year drug-free mark. Adulterers confess to their wife and they want to start over with their family. Someone loses their loved one. And at the six-month mark of grief share, someone brings up be baptized. And so this is a trend where it's like you could start to look at baptism wrongly as a thing you do to kind of jumpstart a new life. What should we do after coming out of heroin? Or what should we do after we lost mom? Well, Let's go to Grief Share and let's do a 30-day treatment. And at the end of the 30 days, we'll get an award and a plaque for the wall, and we'll go to your local church and be baptized. See how we've disconnected that completely with just being born again? Wow. All that stuff actually is... I didn't know that was trending.

43:30Speaker 1:And I know that because I've talked to a lot of people that have been wet multiple times, and part of the wetness is... I was baptized when I was a kid, you know, because... of youth camp. And then I got baptized again. And when I was 19, after dad died of cancer and I was going through a really rough time.

43:51Speaker 3:Right.

43:53Speaker 1:And it's like, where was the Lord in the, in those things? You know, did you ask him which one took?

44:00Speaker 2:Yeah.

44:01Speaker 1:Which one of them took anyway? Um, maybe one person heard this.

44:07Speaker 4:So a lot of what you're saying is a lot of this comes down to conversion.

44:13Speaker 1:All of it does.

44:15Speaker 4:Like we're not born morally neutral. We're not born deep, deep down good that we just kind of need a little Jesus. And then, yeah, we fell away for most of our lives, but like, so what you're arguing is that baptism, as we read the new Testament, comes after this conversion, that we're all born dead and God has to make us alive, like go read Ephesians 1 and 2. And then once we're alive, we've repented of our sin, received the Holy Spirit, then an outward act after the conversion that shows what's happened inside of us is obeying the command to be baptized. So first comes conversion and then baptism and And then this cool expression of baptism into the local church, this body of believers now.

45:13Speaker 1:Yeah, part of baptism is the promise you're making to that local body.

45:18Speaker 4:That we will keep this man accountable.

45:22Speaker 1:And to the man, I will be accountable to you.

45:24Speaker 2:Yeah.

45:26Speaker 4:And it's representing, like, there's so many folds of baptism that's so cool. You're, you know, the death... You're going under the water showing this is my death to my old self, the Bible says, and then alive to newness of life. So your old self has passed away and then newness of life now. And then you're also symbolizing Christ and your future resurrection of how Christ died and then rose again. This is a foreshadowing of how now I, not only am I dead to my old self, but I'm now alive in Christ. And in the future, I will die, but I will rise again to eternal life.

46:05Speaker 4:So anyway, a good meditation on this is, or really not even meditation, just one of the best books of all time on this that could change your life is called Conversion by Michael Lawrence. And it's on Amazon for a future thought of this because conversion to Christianity in America is so misunderstood. I think hopefully this helped, but that book is also really helpful to think through what's the difference between somebody who quote unquote fell away for their teenage and college years and then came back to God and somebody who just was never saved in the first place. And to me as a 27 year old, it was reassuring to me to just be like, I didn't just fall away for 12 years. I was never saved.

46:51Speaker 4:I never showed any fruit. And now I'm born again. And that's almost like reassuring to just be like, okay, now I have the Holy Spirit. It's not like somehow I had the Holy Spirit and I was dead to my old self, but born again to newness of life while I was in all of this debauchery. Like that just, that wouldn't make it. It was almost reassuring to be like, yeah, I was dead then.

47:12Speaker 1:Yeah. Anyway. I have several copies of that book here so we could do a giveaway. nice yeah cool.

47:21Speaker 6:What should we tell people to comment they could say just they could comment whatever they're gonna say and then just add the word conversion maybe like conversion and then like that could be it or if you have conversion in your.

47:32Speaker 4:Comment in any way then maybe that will be entering is.

47:34Speaker 1:That cool with y'all yeah c-o-n-v-e-r-s-i-o-n yeah did you do give me that hat last week.

47:45Speaker 2:Uh did i look for a winner Did you get a winner?

47:48Speaker 1:Yeah, all eyes on you.

47:49Speaker 5:As soon as we were done, I went to Maddie, and we talked about me and Caden helping find one.

47:58Speaker 1:Yeah. I was wondering how many Gimme That hat was on there. Actually, I don't know. Okay. I need to go check today. I want to say one more time that people that are listening that might start thinking, I should be baptized. I've never been baptized. I just want to say... that does not save you. Deciding to be baptized is not, it's not like something you need to do to check a box, to be closer to God or to earn His approval. Or if you've heard us say the word obedient, and so you shouldn't start to think, I need to be obedient to God and do this thing they're talking about by being baptized. Because there is nothing you could do to please Him with your obedience if you're outside of Christ. And God sent forth his only son into the world knowing that we could not do that, knowing that no one had a chance. We have defaced his character like graffiti on a priceless painting, you know. And we're made in his image. And so when we image him and sin, we're defacing his image.

49:13Speaker 1:And the price of that is death. The price of that is eternal separation from Him. And knowing this, God made a way, sent his only son, who lived that perfect life without defacing. There was the perfect image, and then he's the one that took the punishment we deserved. The eternal separation, the punishment of hell, and then three days later rose from the grave saying, all who look to me will be saved. And to those who are saved and born again and converted, then they go follow obedience in Matthew 28 to be baptized into a local church.

49:56Speaker 1:Like baptism is the entry into your new life with your new people, your new family. That's what it means. And the symbol of the water coming out off of the person, them going into the water, going down into the depths of the water. Think about this. And then rising back up out of the water with the water falling off and they're clean, they're new. That's the symbol of a new birth. It's a symbol of the gospel. And those people do that not to earn God's favor, but because it's already been earned for them. And then it's also their entry into their new home. with their new family, God's people, abiding in their local church. If you took anything from this conversation, just hear that part.

50:49Speaker 4:And the thumbnail is going to say something like, stop getting baptized. And what you mean is perhaps stop baptizing carelessly.

50:59Speaker 1:Yes. Too quickly. Good point.

51:02Speaker 4:And it would be good. going beyond scripture for us to say, even don't baptize, never ever baptize someone the same day of them professing faith. Like, I mean, I feel like we almost see another hour, but essentially what we're saying is not necessarily don't baptize too quickly. Although sometimes people do, but it'll take time out of it. It's don't baptize carelessly in that don't baptize someone. And like, do they understand the gospel? Like in Acts, they had a knowledge of the truth. believing the word and then they were baptized. And so this, like this, the danger of a baptism is it now is something that they will look back on. Like I was saved because I got baptized at nine.

51:49Speaker 1:That's good.

51:50Speaker 4:And so that's the danger that we're worried about is the 58 year old who lived a whole life separated from the church, separated from a body of believers and, lived in sin, and always looks back to when they were nine because they got baptized at the local Baptist church by somebody, but they were never really saved and they're going to go to hell. And that's terrifying that millions of people are living thinking they're good because they got baptized as a kid, but no life indicates that they're following Christ because there's no fruit and they're lukewarm.

52:32Speaker 4:And Jesus is going to say, I never knew you, depart from me when you say I got baptized when I was nine. And so I hope that doesn't cause unwarranted doubt to the people who really are safe listening to this, but hopefully it puts a godly fear into you if that might be you. And you can reassess and confirm your calling and election, like it says in 2 Timothy, and test yourself to make sure that you're in the faith as we're called to.

53:02Speaker 1:I'm glad you said that. And part of that testing involves belonging to a body of believers that can hold you accountable for your profession, because we could deceive ourselves and a group of believers that walk alongside you in the context of a local church, always in the Bible, always, always, are the people that could then call you out and say, brother, you're in sin right now, or I think you're being prideful right now, or brother, I just want to encourage you how faithful you you've been lately, all those things. Also, Matthew 18 gives the church a form of discipline so that the church could also act with a rod and discipline the believer as a rescue mission, an act of love, saying, we have seen this in you, and multiple brothers have come to you, and then now we've taken it to the church, and you're still not hearing us, brother. So now we can no longer affirm your profession anymore. We're not saying you're not a Christian, but we can no longer say that we believe that you are. And that is a scary place to be, to treat you, like Jesus said, like a tax collector. You're outside of us.

54:13Speaker 4:A helpful way that I've heard it put is the church is like an embassy of God here on earth. So just like the United States may have a United States embassy in Egypt. And if you are an American in Egypt, you go to the United States embassy, you show them your citizenship card, and they cannot in and of themselves make you a United States citizen, but they can affirm your citizenship through their kingdom and country. And so the church, like an embassy of God here on earth, all of these little embassies, all these little outposts of the kingdom of God have been placed here so that they can't make you be saved or But they can affirm, they can say, by what you're telling us, we can affirm your citizenship into the kingdom, which is why it's so important because you get the accountability, you get the assurance.

55:05Speaker 4:And so we can only say so much on a podcast. You guys have to find a local body, like you're saying, so that you can talk through these things.

55:12Speaker 1:But dude, keep running that analogy out. Matthew 18, church discipline. Keep running that out. I thought that's where you're going. It's a beautiful illustration, but imagine, continue. So then you enact church discipline, embassy discipline on this citizen. We can no longer affirm your citizenship. We can no longer say that you're a citizen here. So you got to go out that door and sleep out there in Egypt. We can no longer say you belong to the United States.

55:47Speaker 1:That's a scary thing. And then that person, the goal is, the goal in Matthew 18 is that the person bangs on the door. I'm so sorry. I will stop. No more will I do my old ways. Please, please. I can't imagine not being part of this. I need you guys. I need this citizenship. I will not do what I've been doing anymore, you know? And they open the door and say, welcome back, brother. I forgive you 77 times, you know, which is literally the next paragraph in Matthew 18.

56:24Speaker 2:C.S.

56:25Speaker 4:Lewis loved that military outpost language because he was writing so much during World War II. And so it's a good point. It's like, we're living, he's like, we always, he always said we're living in enemy territory here on earth, ruled by Satan, the prince of the power of the air, you know, temporarily ruled, you know, God is ruling over all his sovereign, but you know, it says Satan is the prince of the power of the air and, and, is in a way ruling here in enemy territory. And these churches are like little kingdom outposts that radio in to our general who's in command back home. And so it's good because like these little outposts are like affirming our citizenship. And so how scary, imagine being in enemy territory in a war And you need to get in the U.S. embassy and there's enemies out here. And then Satan is prowling around like a lion looking for someone to devour at night. You need to be led back into the gates.

57:19Speaker 1:It's kind of interesting. I like this. This is a good illustration. This took a good turn. Thank you, Parker. I think identifying, because people immediately start saying at the beginning of this podcast, what's the harm? Yeah. Well, the harm is the false assurance, thinking I've already been baptized. I'm living out here in the streets of Egypt and I've already got the water, the magic water, so I'm good. That's a good point. So to the title, stop baptizing so many people. I don't know.

57:51Speaker 4:Like Ant said, the realization that you came to was that I'm not the prodigal's brother. I am the prodigal. That's the realization that every person has to come to a realization to, that you are Are or were at one point the enemy of God that was against God, that was separated from him, that was the rebel. And you need to be cleansed. Not the other guy.

58:14Speaker 1:Each of us. Tyler, are you good? Yeah. Should I end it? How? Because sometimes I end it and you go, oh, that's it?

58:24Speaker 2:No, yeah, no.

58:25Speaker 5:The conversation Parker and Granger just had was great.

58:28Speaker 1:Okay.

58:28Speaker 2:I loved it.

58:29Speaker 1:Love you guys. See you next Monday.

58:30Speaker 5:Eat you.