DP/Operator Nick McLean Sr

Dave C: This podcast was originally recorded in June of 2023. Enjoy. On today's amazing show, you're gonna hear me say amazing way too many times because I was so excited talking to our guest. We're gonna talk about the deer hunter, close encounters, that famous scene in Marathon Man that everybody talks about, working with Alfred Hitchcock, and of course, hanging out with Burt Reynolds. Just a little bit of business before we start. There may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please. Listen responsibly. As always, our website, the op.io, is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done, the musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling, the blocking, the answers, the images, and so much more. If you're enjoying this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Like it up nice and quiet and let's roll. Victor 30 Echo Tech 2. Camera set. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the OP, the podcast where ⁓ we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. I am your host, Dave Komides, and ⁓ we are actually here ⁓ today at the ⁓ Panavision Woodland Hills Theater, which they have graciously allowed me to use ⁓ because it sounds better than my bedroom. so today I'm really, really excited because we have an amazing guest, Nick McLean Senior, who was like sort of the operator on everything. ⁓ I'll just give you a little little rundown of the highlights. These are just some of the highlights, by the way. ⁓ Cheechin Shang's next movie, which I just think is hilarious because it is it's it's hilarious. ⁓ Being There, The Rose, The Deer Hunter, Heaven Can Wait. Close Encounters of the Third Kind, looking for Mr. Goodbar, Marathon Man, Funny Lady, the list goes on and on. And as an assistant, just because I think this is notable, ⁓ he was a camera assistant on the Sugarland Express, which of course was Steven Spielberg's first theatrical movie. He'd done some stuff before that, but that was his first movie. So ⁓ cannot wait to hear everything he has to say. ⁓ Nick, thank you so much for being here today. It's a pleasure. This is this is like I I'm so excited. I can't wait to ask you tons and tons of questions. Great. You were a camera operator, or you were in the business for how many years? I got in the business in 1966. My first day was on the Iron Horse. ⁓ and then I got I think just one or two days. And then you had to have 30 days to get in the union. Okay. And then the next year I got one day. And then the following year. year I got my thirty days. So maybe I got in the union six nineteen sixty nine. Back then how and this w so this was this was six fifty nine. Correct. It was the lost ⁓ West Coast ⁓ correct ⁓ local. ⁓ so but how did you get a day if you weren't in the union like there wasn't anybody else available and they called you? Correct. Okay. My stepfather was a ⁓ director of photography. ⁓ And he was doing the Iron Horse. He introduced me to some people at Columbia and when everybody was working, then you could get on. I got so I got one day on, or I I think I got like ten days my first year. Okay. One day my second year. So it accrued year to year. And then accrue. You had to do it in a year. So then I thought I was screwed. ⁓ this is an interesting stor interesting story. I got a ⁓ a friend of mine who I made a a camera operator later, ⁓ he had a movie going to somewhere and got me on it and The union didn't check. But in the time there was a Gerald McLean, G. McLean. My first name is George. Okay. So th when the list came out, they thought I was Geor I was Gerald McLean. Yeah. I got my thirty days, I called the union, I said, You gotta accept me now, and that's how I got in the union. So I just wanna make sure that I have this right because this same sort of thing happened with John Toll. You're not worried at this point about the union finding out that you got in under under less than honest Circumstances. I don't want them coming in and dragging you away. What they told me when I f got in the union, and I forget the guy's name. What year was this to you? And how old were you? Well, I'm eighty two now. Okay. I'm an old man. I would not have guessed that you were eighty two. But when I got in the union, the guy that swore me in said, I want you to know nobody has has made so much money knowing so little. I never I never forget that line. This was probably what the president of the local at the time? Or do remember who was? Jerry somebody. Jerry somebody. I'll look it up. That's great. Right. I love it. Okay, so so and who was your stepfather? Fred Jackman Sr., who was a director and a cinematographer. Wow. And his my ⁓ grandfather was Fred Jackman Sr., who was the third or the first president of the ASC. Wow. And here's a quick story. The reason I never joined the ASC is because my grandfather was a gambler. He lost the Treasury and going to Santa Anita of the ASC. So my stepfather was an ASC member. They kicked him out. That's not they're not happy about that either. So when they asked me to join probably ten times, I said it's not good enough for my family to forget it. So I used to go because I played football at USC, I used to go Nick McLean, not A S C I would go USC. Which they didn't like at all. All right. Well there you go. ⁓ so so tell me ⁓ how you how so you got into that's how you got into the industry. Correct. And then and then and then you eventually worked your way up to first day seeing, obviously. I yeah, I was I was working at Universal and every ⁓ every night you go in and check the list. Or they'd send it out to the set if you were working and tell you which stage to go to the next day. You're you know, you're like a daily deal. So it was the studio system and you just went there wow. Exactly. Were you basically employed by the studio and they just said you go here today, you go there today? No. Well I guess I was. Yeah I guess you would say and then all of a sudden three features came out and one was with Hitchcock, which I really wanted real bad, and one was in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Okay. And luckily I got the one in Santa Fe, New Mexico as a second. And Vilmos Zig Zygmunt was the first. His first big movie is in the Union. What movie was that? ⁓ Red Sky at Morning was the the picture that ⁓ the Vilmosh one. And nobody's seen it. Okay. Well, kind of a Western. Yeah. But it was in Santa Fe, you know. All you have to do to be a hero there is push the button because it's beautiful. Every night, you know, they have the great What was what was ⁓ was Vilmosh Were you impressed by him? He could barely speak Eng English. Really. And the first assistant he didn't like. So he moved me up to the first assistant. Okay. And then at the end of that he says, I just got offered another movie, l little movie up in in Canada. Would you go with me on that? A and it was ⁓ it's called Presbyterian Church Rager at the time. But it was called it was Warren Beattie and God, I can't think of the name of that either now but Anyways, we were up in Canada for like ⁓ six months. It was But that's how it works, right? Even back then, it's like you like someone, you can be around them for sixteen hours a day and you go, Com come with me next time. Yeah, Zygmunt and I got along real well and then at one point I told Zygmunt I didn't want to be an assistant anymore. Yeah. And he always operated his own camera. I don't know whether you know about that stuff. Yeah, sure. I mean there a lot of people that's It was illegal but they did it anyway. Yeah, but it w yeah. And then He said, Well, why don't you become my operator? And I said, Because I wouldn't be an operator, you know. Yeah. He always had a standby. I gotcha. And he said, No, you'll operate every shot, I swear to God. Yeah. Yeah. So I really moved yeah, I moved up to operator. The first movie was ⁓ The Girl from Petro Petrovka, which we did in Austria, which was great. ⁓ that wow. And then it w it it went on from there. Well now I I want to hear all that, but if you have a Hitchcock story, I I I'm not gonna be many people who have a Hitchcock story. I was an operator, I was a real hot operator at one time. Yeah. So I get a call, they fired a friend of mine, and I won't mention his name. That's Hitchcock. Yeah. So I get I took the job and in those days you had to wear a suit not a suit, but a coat and a tie, which was great. That's great. So I got there, I did the day's work on an insert card and stuff, and the last shot of the day was a car coming down towards me and going off a cliff. Okay. And I looked around for the cameras, one camera. And and this is an actual honest to goodness car driving over a cliff, you're saying it's it's okay. Yeah. You know, it it's in the movie. It the movie was ⁓ Bruce Dern was in it, I can't remember the name. Anyways, so I'm sitting there getting ready to shoot this car and I'm thinking No extra cameras. I'm it. I put And I'm assuming nobody's in the car, like it's rolling on its own. Yeah, it was somebody in the car. Maybe it was just a small drop. Anyway, but whatever. Yeah. So I f I ⁓ every the reason my friend got fired was going from Hitchcock to Lenny South, who was the D P, something was being lost. So the camera operator wasn't getting the right information. I gotcha. So every shot that was up, I would go over and listen. Hitchcock was sitting in this l big Lincoln Continental. And I remember his stomach was just about it hitting his chin. And I would listen. You know, I'd listened exactly, you know, what he'd say. He would direct from inside the car because it was more comfortable or something. Yeah. So anyways, when we get ready to do the stunt, I hear him put a chair right next to my camera. I love it. And then I hear this shuffling. And they're we're getting ready to roll and Hitchcock says to me I assume your machine is functioning properly. So I said, yes, sir, and I turned it on, the car went off the cliff. I got he could tell whether you had it or And there's no video assist, right? No, gosh no way before that. Love it. It went off and all of a sudden up and away he went. That was my d did you interact with him any more than that, or is it pretty much himself? I took the job 'cause I wanted to work with him. And ⁓ I think I was on it two days and that was the last. Hey, that's that's pretty cool though. That's great. That's really cool. So so you became Vilmosh's ⁓ operator. I would say I did ten movies with with Zygmunt, which was you know, the deer hunter, the the Rose, the ⁓ god, it just went on and on and on. We just Close Encounters. Close encounter Yeah, that's right. Close encounters Sugarland. Sugarland, yeah. But Sugar Land you were a first AC? Yes. Okay. So actually so I can sort of keep this in chronicle on it. So when you were working on Sugarland, this Steven Spielberg's first ⁓ theatrical feature. He'd done I think I think he'd done a couple of T V movies. He did dual, yeah. And some and some TV ⁓ Which he won the award for when he was like twenty six. He won which award for? Best director in Europe, they gave it to Really? I didn't know that. so you did Sugarland Express, he's in his twenties, right? I don't know. was you know, right n now you work with Spielberg, he's an auteur, he's Steven Spielberg, he's da da da da da. Back then could you t could you see the seeds of what he would become? I mean ⁓ Spielberg? Yeah. Absolutely. How so? He was so different. I mean he the way he hired people, the way he casted actor actors, he casted real people, you know, then and he would put up with them missing their lines just to get their accent or to get this to get that. But he was just Different. So you could tell that this was a change in directing, this was a change in direct. It was different, you know. And we were on it on Sugarland, God, four months probably down in ⁓ Texas. Okay. And ⁓ you could tell it was gonna it was a real good movie. It didn't do too good, but now you've w you've worked on I mean I I listed some of them, not all of them. You've worked on massive, massive movies. When you're working on those movies, can you tell that they're gonna be good? Probably. Yeah, I would say so. I h how often how often did you work on something where you're like this is gonna be the best thing ever and then it's just it's horrible. I don't remember. I don't remember doing that. All right. So that's good. That's good. Yeah. ⁓ so so y you become Vilmosh's ⁓ operator, you work on all these things. Did you pretty much were you pretty much going Vilmosh Vilmosh Vilmosh 'cause he was just back to back 'cause he was I was and then I some somehow and I don't re ⁓ when I finished Close Encounters I got a call from Billy Fraker to do the Exorcist II. Okay. So that's how I kind of transitioned to Fraker. Yep. And then Fraker and I he knew I was a great operator, but we didn't get along at all. And he fired me twice though. Did he? I fired me on Heaven Can Wait. I saw that was on the list. Have you ever been fired? But Jor do you know the name Jordan Cronenworth? Sure. Well Jordan was a very, very good friend of mine. Yeah. And Jordan once told me, he says, You're not a great cinematographer. to you've been fired from every major studio in Hollywood. I love that. And I damn near got there. I love that. My my my thing is always if you haven't been fired, you you have you you you haven't been in the business long enough to do I've been fired many times. And let me ask you a question. Look, when when you get passed into your working on close encounters on the deer hunter and whatever, you get fired, you probably realize like, okay, it happens. When you were younger the first time it happened, when you were still a a you know a greener operator, how did that affect you or how did you deal with it? I think it would have affected me. I never got I never got fired for bad operating. Okay. I just in fact you want to hear the story how Fraker fired me. I totally On Heaven Can Wait. Yeah. Which I'd been on four or five months. Okay. We came back. Did you ever see the movie? I did. And Heaven Can Wait went on like nine, ten months. Michael Tamino? No. No. ⁓ Warren Beattie and Buck Henry directed it. ⁓ that's right. I'm sorry. I'm thinking of ⁓ I can't think of the movie. I'm thinking but anyway, yes. You'll love this. The we came back onto the set and then the the the huge airplane was there that they go to heaven on yeah and there's all dry ice everywhere and they was on stage I'm assuming. Right. Yeah. Okay. So and we'd just gotten back. So we got it all lit, ready to go, and they wanted to wrap and I said I was on the crane, I Billy, let me just run off two or three hundred feet and we'll look at this tomorrow and see if we can fit need it to fix anything. Nikki, great idea. So anyways, I got ⁓ to the stage in the morning And I called the lab and they said it's gonna be shown so and so. So I walked down there and I walked back it it wasn't theirs, I walked back and ⁓ so Billy came in and but he was hungover as hell. So he said, I said, Where are they showing the dailies? He said, Well how in the fuck should I know? Just like that. And I just it made me mad. So I walked back down to see the dailies. I'm coming back and Billy and the head of Paramount or wherever were And a a key grip art broker was there. And he said to me, Nikki, where are they showing the dailies? And I just said, How in the fuck should I He said, Just get in your car and get out of here And it was and it was a protest by Warren Beattie. He got real pissed off. Then you were being fired, yes. Called me at home and so on and so forth. But I was already on my way Zygman and I owned part of an island in the San Juans up off the coast of Washington. I said, Screw it. I'm gonna go up there and just kick back, drink wine, enjoy my life, knowing I'll never work in Hollywood again. Yeah. W Okay. And I get up there and the first day I'm there, I hear that we had a radio telephone and ⁓ this caretaker came walking down, said, Nick, I just heard from Zygman from Thailand, get on the next plane to for the deer hunter. ⁓ my God. Wow. So b basically like it's felling from success to success. Yeah. So so let me back up. But it sounds like you were with someone who probably liked you and wanted to protect you and wanted you to succeed. Yes. ⁓ but what which I this is a long time ago, so ⁓ you understand. what was that transition like? What what what were what what did you find were the hardest parts about jumping from being an assistant to a camera operator? Well actually the the physical part and the agility of moving the camera Yeah. At the right time and and knowing where to go and and I can remember I missed a couple, you know, people popping up stand ups and whatnot. Yeah, okay. And ⁓ but you get used to that after a while. But you know, once a couple of weeks and you know, I remember in fact Mike Jeannie was my assistant when we came back on Patrofa. I remember almost every shot that day. Really to this day. On on that first day. Yeah. The first day coming back. Well, we were in Austria for a long time. Yep. And then every time there was a shot that I don't think I could make, Zygmunt would just take over. So when I got back, it was illegal. Yeah. And so you were sort of protected a little bit. Exactly. Definitely. That's amazing. ⁓ and what about what about quote unquote running the set? I mean, was that like, you know, and and and dealing with the first A deal and dealing with the actors or or l let me ask you a question, 'cause ⁓ th maybe this is naive. As an A camera operator now, I'm very involved with that. Yes. It may not have been like that back in the day. I don't know. It pretty much was. It was. Okay. Especially with European or ⁓ directors, you know. They actually dealt with the camera operator more than the DP. And I did several with ⁓ John Schlesinger who he and I were just buddies, you know. Yeah. And I did the biggest bad movie he ever did that Honky Tonk Freeway it was called. I vaguely remember this. I don't know if I saw the name. so you're working with Zygmunt and like I said He obviously protected you a little bit. Did you have any experiences early on where you jumped on a movie where the D P did not protect you? I did on ⁓ when I was working I went back and worked for Universal occasionally and there was and I ⁓ you know who the D P was? I think Frank Thackeray, who I'd worked with his dad, okay, who was a Big DP in the back of the I did a year of Ironside as an operator. Ironside, ⁓ my god. I did. And I keep looking at I get get ⁓ back every day. Wow. But I haven't seen one that I remember anymore. There was a lot of that. It was in the family. Yeah. And was it hard to get in if you weren't in that in that crowd? ⁓ I don't know. I it probably was, you know. But I was Because my stepfather was a DP. Yeah, you you so tell th you have to have some amazing stories about the deer hunter. The deer hunter was unbelievable. I remember somebody got sick. A lot of people were getting dysentery and stuff like that. So when I was on the island of Zygmunt and I place, he called me to come over there. This is up in Washington, you're saying. Yeah. The San Juan Islands. And ⁓ when I got there I think there was only like a month left. But it was the toughest month. It was like and Shimino was with us all the time and Shimino was just ⁓ Tough guy. He was horrible. But let me ask you a question, but talented? I mean could you Of course. He definitely was talented. Yeah. But I remember one time we were out on a skiff in the on the River Kwai and he fell off the boat and everybody just turned their back. That's that's the kind of guy that And another time we had this b ⁓ there was a we had a if you saw the movie, we had a flamethrower or a guy had a flamethrower and we had the guy rig that the flame was coming at to catch on fire and it didn't work. And Samina said, Okay, we're gonna be back out here tomorrow morning at five o'clock in the morning. Well the sun sun didn't come up until seven or something like that. So we're all sitting around s saying what a jerk he was. Yeah, and he was right out there with us. He was sitting on the chair and heard all so sorry. I think I replaced the guy from there was a guy from New York there. ⁓ And so ⁓ did you did you shoot the the famous ⁓ the famous ⁓ Russian roulette scene? Of course. Wow. I was there, yes. And was that as intense as I mean Absolutely. And we would we stayed in this little motel. Wait, sorry, this was Thailand, right? Yes. Okay. And this was nineteen seventy three, four, or something. Something like that. Okay. A little town called Cachanabre, which was right where the bridge on the River Kwai was. In fact the bridge on the river Kwai was still there, but it wasn't what you remember. It was like a cement bridge. Okay. But we go on the they'd call them longboats. They're So you're saying the actual one or the one the one from the movie that they that they used? No, the one from the movie was gone. It was gone. So the actual Brazil. But we go on these boats, you could get about five or six people in them. Yeah. And they have a Toyota engine and they start the engine and it was a direct drive to a propeller and they put that in the water and take you out. They just take you out. Yeah. And at about ten o'clock there would be a barge with food and beer on it. And y they didn't want you to drink any water that you could all the beer you could drink. Which was great. And all the marijuana you'd want in those days, it was you know it was. It's amazing anything got on film. But that scene, that was an incredible scene. I think it was the day I got there. ⁓ my gosh. Yeah. So it was Yeah. It was something. I it took it. I can't remember. We probably took a couple days to do it 'cause it was pretty wild and then they It's intense to watch. I can't imagine the pit yeah having my eye on it. Well that's Chimino too. Chemino was a pretty talented guy. Yeah, absolutely. And then I disliked him so much that the next movie what's the big movie got The Chemino movie? Yeah. That's the one I was thinking of before. And I and I was thinking of Heaven's Gate, but it's not it's It is Heavensgate. ⁓ it's Heavens. So I was at Zygmunt and my Island Heaven can watch Heaven's Gate. That's why I'm confusing. Which is two hundred miles away from it and they needed operators real bad. And I refused it. I said, No, I'm not gonna do Yeah, not I have no interest in working with the guy again. Wow. Interesting. So so you you're in Thailand, you're shooting ⁓ what is it, a week before you saw dailies? I mean, how did that work? Didn't see ⁓ You didn't just someone someone from the States called up and said everything looks good or you got a negative report or something. Right. Interesting. I never saw any dailies there. Wow. So so so actually backing up a little bit or or I don't know if it's backing up, but Talk to me about going to dailies as an operator back then because that's not something I I I had the tail end of that. I I hit the tail end of that. I used to go to dailies. I I actually miss it personally because it was kind of great in the sort of social aspect. It was also kind of terrifying 'cause I was a younger operator and I hoped to God I wasn't gonna get fired. But what was that like on these big days? It was absolutely incredible. Especially I started I got hooked up with Burt Reynolds. Yeah. And I was a I did a lot of helicopter stuff. And Burt Reynolds for dailies at night would have a chef, a bar. It it was absolutely amazing. And the first stuff I did for Burt Reynolds was aerials at the opening of of ⁓ Sharky's Machine. I the last shot, and Bert went with us about three or four times, but we'd get we had to follow the elevator up until it stopped at like the eightieth floor. And then when the doors opened that was the cut. ⁓ you mean this is like on the outside of a hotel or on the side of the hotel? Beach weasant, which is round. Okay. So we would follow we did it about three or four times. The wind was blowing like crazy. ⁓ boy. So yeah. So Bert says, I don't want to do this anymore. Yeah. And I had an incredible pilot that that died on runaway train, but Ricky Hawley. But we did it about the eighth time we finally got it. Are you handheld in there? No, I had a mount. A mount. ⁓ But there wasn't enough light to use a zoom lens, so I had to use like a Flat lane, so we had to be real close. Yeah. You know, our rotor blades were like we're about ten feet from the building. ⁓ my god. Yeah. ⁓ that's amazing. It's you know, you say about the helicopter, it's like I I think y your generation compared to my generation was probably even a little more so, but there's all this stupid stuff that we did and we do that w that that And now it's all drones. I don't think they do helicopters. No, there there's really not much reason for it anymore because the drones can get I mean the drones can go up and carry one of the actual cameras now. So it's amazing. And they can do more s I mean, you know, what they can do is more impressive. So there's no question about it. So so so was early on when you would ⁓ Vilmos and and and on those early movies, when you would show up for dailies was was was there a little bit of fear until you sort of saw Absolutely. Yeah. And at one time Vilmos told me, he says, You're ruining my work. Really? Because we would we would decide on a composition, an opening composition. And again, just a reminder to p people there was no video assist back then. So he would sh he would show you the frame he wanted and then he would assume that's what you're getting. Right. Yeah. And sometimes I didn't. And or I'd, you know, do the wrong move or something like that. But yeah, he told me one time, You're ruining my work, you're ruining my work which was it was upsetting, but sure, you know. I didn't get fired. Wow. Yeah. ⁓ so ⁓ so let me ask you a question. As an operator now who ⁓ one of the things that bothers me ⁓ is that there is this whole especially with digital, there's this whole group of people who are watching a monitor who actually see more and better than I do, to be perfectly honest. Because they've got some massive monitor. So when I make a change or when I make a mistake that I think is a mistake, there's a little bit about ⁓ there's a little bit about Well, they've seen it, so I'm sure they're okay with it. And I'll usually bring it up, hey, were you okay with you know and i if it's something serious, but if it's minor, I don't. But back then They're completely relying on you to say we got her. One hundred percent. When they yelled cut, the director looked directly at you and not the D P. You know, and it was just between you you know It's great. It was great. It really was. And and and were there times where you w you know, so you change something or whatever and you're sort of like, you know what, I'm just gonna hope that this is okay 'cause I thought it worked or made ⁓ do it again. Yeah. No, but I mean I mean where you made a s a slight change, it was your decision of ⁓ of course. Of course. In fact Fraker used to tell me, you know, I used to creep. I used to get set and then if if there's something in the s in the s ⁓ picture that was move, I could creep with it. Yeah. I don't know whether you've ever done that. Sure. But we all have. But Fraker but Fraker would say, God damn it, Nikki, you're creeping again. You're creeping again. But it would get to a better composition, you know. Yeah. I get over if I didn't make it to that composition I could creep over it and get to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I I work with a really good D P who's a very good friend of mine. I don't know if you ever ran into him, John Lindley, who shot Field the Dreams. I know that name, but I never missed it. But ⁓ I was I I I I once landed a frame and it wasn't exactly what I wanted. It was a long scene and and and you know, over about a minute I probably moved the frame, you know, just an eighth of an inch. And I don't th you know, I'm thinking to myself, nobody knows and whatever and he came over afterwards and he goes, You realize I know what you're doing there, right? I said, ⁓ God. And you guys, no, it's fine, you were right. But I just want to let you know you're not getting away with it. Well. Was was there ever a time where you went into dailies and you were just sho like it wasn't what you remembered, or you're shocked at what you did, or I'll tell you a funny story. On the swashbuckler, which we did the first part at Universal, there was a shot and I think I was the B camera operator, and there was a shot of these guy and a gal way up God, they had to be forty feet in the air. And they were gonna come down And they were gonna go through this kind of a canvas and go into a a bunch of fruit or something like that. It was just a great stunt. Yeah. So and it was on a Friday, which, you know, you always want to make everything real good on a Friday. So I I was there and I took ⁓ about the first ten feet and for some reason I I to this day I don't know why, I went like this, I panned off ⁓ and I went down to the deal, and then they came through the top and landed. I went, ⁓ man, I'm dead. This I'm gonna be fired on this one for sure. Yeah, yeah. Jimmy Goldstone was the director who's did quite a few things. Pretty good pretty good guy. So I thought, well and I remember at Dailies on it Monday. Yeah. I was waiting for the shot. Sure. And here we go and I'm thinking this is it. As soon as they see this, like you're they gotta fire me. I'm done. So it happens and sure as shit I did pan off and I got down yeah and Jimmy Goldstart sa says, Great Nick, you got you got me two shots. I got one at the top and I got one at the bottom. And I went, ⁓ There you go. Dodge the bullet again. Yep. ⁓ that's fantastic. Close encounters of the third kind. Yes. Tell me something amazing. There's gotta be great stories about that. But yeah, we we started off at ⁓ you know the big mountain devil's pose pile or whatever it is. I'll I'll tell you something just as an aside. ⁓ several years ago we moved from the East Coast to the West Coast. I I got a a motor home and drove my family cross country 'cause I I I realized my kids have only seen the coasts and I wanted to show them. And we stayed at Devil's Tower at a ⁓ r right literally like the KOA campground. It was here. And it's in the background. And the reason we stayed there was because every night or every night they could or whatever, they had an outdoor movie and they showed close encounters with Devil's Tower in the background. We know on my book, the cover of my book. Yeah. I'm on top of a On top of a car doing a had a PanaVision, you know, with the eyepiece up like this, doing a two shot of the people inside, and I'm tied to the car. But dev the devil's tower is in the background there. So yeah. Wow. well, you're tied to the car 'cause it's a moving shot. Mm-hmm. That's how they did things back there. Yes. It would not fly anymore. Yeah, no, it wouldn't, would it? That's amazing. ⁓ sorry, close encounters. So yeah, what was that like to shoot? I mean, it was great. It was just it was something new And it's and it was Steven Spielberg. So you knew you were doing the best. Single camera? ⁓ I was the A camera operator, but I think in some times we had a couple of But not all not all the time. I mean No. And a lot of the time we had sixty five millimeter. Really? Or seventy millimeter. ⁓ And then when we got to Jul ⁓ when we got to Mobile, Alabama, they built that big set, the the landing side. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we were kind of christening it. And Spielberg, you know, he said, You we we got, you know, two more months or whatever it is to shoot out here and Spielberg picks up a bottle of champagne and throws it out. I thought he's gone nuts. But he was christening it. ⁓ that's cool. ⁓ because this is you were gonna be here for the rest of the movie kind of thing? Right. And he didn't drink either, but he's not a drinker or anything like that. But ⁓ what a great guy. Really? Fantastic. Well, you know, he produced the Goonies. Yeah, sure. And he made me be in the Goonies. So because we couldn't get ⁓ actors in there w had a big rainstorm up in Astoria. Okay. So he said, Nick, you gotta do this part. And in this shot at the opening of the Goonies, I played the p plumber. I was under the sink, but in the shot we had a TV, we had to balance the light from inside to outside because there's a car chase going on outside. Yeah. I had all kinds of stuff to do and shouldn't have been in the shot. But and I'm sure he'll help you out too, my operator in those days was Mike O'Shea, who was the greatest greatest operator of all time. I think we did ten he was my operator of the great guy. He's ⁓ he's on my list of people to talk to ⁓ God, he's the best. He's fantastic. He is absolutely the best. And you know he won an Emmy for ⁓ as a D P Ye I didn't know that. Yeah, on ⁓ I forget what it was, but yeah, he's he's he's the best. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so he was the operator and you were in the scene? Yeah. Well it wa he was the operator on the whole Goonies, you Yeah, yeah. ⁓ I see ⁓ ⁓ so you weren't on the Goonie. No, you were on the ⁓ you were the I'm sorry, you were the director of photography, I think. Yeah, but I was in it also as an actor. No, now I understand. Yeah. And you didn't decide to hang up the DP shingle and become an actor? No, I did not. But I still get a residual about every four months I get 30 bucks or something. Yeah, I was gonna say like the twenty five cents because I played in New Guinea or something like that. ⁓ that's great. ⁓ was ⁓ I mean, was Close Encounters was that the biggest thing you'd ever worked on? At the time it was. Scope wise, I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was huge. It was just And like I say, there was like ⁓ we had a ⁓ new motion control camera which was never ever been used before. Uhhuh. And in fact it was so sensitive it wa th they could probably do it on a computer like this now, but the computer was the size of that door. Wow there and that high. Like in truck somewhere or something. Yeah. And what what scenes did you use that for? Every all all the stuff, you know, with the with the ⁓ spaceships coming. So you could shoot the live action stuff and then they could They recreate. They drop without it, yeah. And then it and when the spaceship actually came down, we had like the top ten feet of it and then they put the rest in. I gotcha. Digitally. Right. That's amazing. Right. It was it was amazing. Wha was that the first sort of big digital effects movie you're It was. I think it was. And was it completely s I mean I it's it's hard for me to put my head in that space because look, the problems that I have now are You know, I worked on a a Marvel thing a little while ago and it's all green screen. And they're like, you know, tilt up and see the monster. And it's like you tilt up and they're like, No, it's bigger than that. And you're like, ⁓ well, where is I mean, I and and of course there's a big green screen, so you have no idea of where anything is. But so to me that's a that not overwhelming, but that's frustrating. But ⁓ back then that must have been completely overwhelming where Absolutely. And then did you just have the effects guys who were go, look, I know none of this makes sense, but what I need you to see is this and we had a guy named Doug Trumble. Doug Trumbull, sure. Huge visual effects. Right. And he's the guy that kind of set that whole thing up. And one night, you'll love this story, Spielberg and I, we were or Zygmunt was lighting something, and we went out on the tarmac and we were trying to see flying saucers. You know, we're trying to, you know, looking up for UFOs. And I started talking to him about when the mothership comes over. Yeah. And here's the difference between Spielberg and me. Okay. I expected the mothership to be the size of this room, you know, or bigger. Sure. And I said, Stephen, how big is it gonna be? He says, a mile across. And I and it was. If you look at the movie when it comes in. It's massive. Yeah, it's massive. So that's that's Stephen. Well look, the guy's got a he's got a vision, right? There's no question about that. I don't think we can argue that. And you couldn't you probably couldn't other than the the unless it was the ⁓ motion control, you couldn't move the camera at all in any of that, right? No, that was it. You could move the camera. You could. That was the first time with the motion control you could, but if it wasn't motion control, like you couldn't pan in a shot or something that had to be had to be lock offs. Yep. That must have been a very interesting thing. And it was seventy millimeter, I believe. It was either sixty five or seventy I forget why was it? Right. It's amazing because because I ⁓ now w when did you get out of the business? When did you retire? What year? I did the last hundred episodes of Friends. I started doing sitcoms. I remember when you guys didn't you guys there was something where maybe the hundred episodes sold and people got miattas or something. It was ⁓ there was some there was some ⁓ yeah, they were sp supposed to give a sit. ⁓ okay. But you know, those kids the last two years were making a million per show. Which now is nothing but the crazy you know and then I stayed on, they asked me to stay on to do the spin off of Joey, which went for two years and it was horrible. And then I went to do something else just because of my crew. Yeah. And this producer gal, you know, she's like twenty five years old, started giving me some crap. And I just got ⁓ went over, got my meters and that's when I retired. So that was film though, right, still? So that my qu I I guess my question was, did you ever work with digital? It sounds like you probably did. The last year of Friends we went digital. Yeah, that was that point. ER tried it too. I had a D IT sitting right in the room with me. Was it the Genesis or what do you do you remember what cameras? No, we had Panavision cameras, I believe. It was probably the Panavisors Genesis, or before that they had the F nine hundred that they sort of I can't remember. Anyway. In fact, I asked my son about that every once in a while. I What do you guys do now with it? They got a chip or something. No, and and and the thing is, what I was gonna say was did you ever work with Norman Parker? No. Okay. Norman Parker is an assistant who Stephen Poster's assistant for a long time. He's a very good friend of mine. Poster was our second unit DP on Close Encounters. On Close Encounters, exactly. That's true. That's we brought him out on it. Sure, sure. ⁓ so I I was bringing up Norman because I try to explain to him what it's like on set now. And it's just completely changed. And the reason I was bringing where I was going with this was from a visual effects point of view. I remember at first it was like, okay, everything has to have trackers and you gotta get we could move the camera, but we had to have I s at first we couldn't. But you had to have the angle of the camera and the height of the camera and the lens of the camera. And now they just sort of go, nah, you don't need it. Just do whatever you want, we'll figure it My wife's actual visual effects artist, so she's on the computer doing all that stuff. ⁓ really? And it's just incredible. It's incredible what they can do. It's amazing. It's incredible. I'll tell I'll tell you tell you a story. ⁓ she's ⁓ she's in her office in the house because she works at home. This is your wife. My wife. Yeah. And she she actually was a not that she's she was started out doing hand animation at Disney, then she did digital animation at Disney. Now she does You know, I don't even know how she does what she does, but she's amazing. But she'll come in she'll come in and she'll go, Look at this, look at the shot and I'm looking at the shot and I'm like what? And she goes, You see all the crew there? I have to take the crew out. Why do I have to take the crew? I said, Well, I don't know. I didn't you know. But you wouldn't have the crew there. You would you would you would catch that and and I said, Yeah, but she goes well why do I well I didn't do the shot. It wasn't me like you know, she'll get upset at me and I'm like, I didn't have anything to do with it. So now whenever I'm on set and people are like, No, they'll just take it out digitally, I go, No, no, no, no, you guys move those chairs. That's a good idea. I can't deal with it. But ⁓ yeah, so and and close encounters must have been months and months and months and months. I mean We were I would say five months, something like that. And we d in mobile it was a hundred degrees, you know, in the daytime, maybe more. And so we decided for the last month or maybe two months, we worked six PM to six A. ⁓ Just 'cause of the heat. And it was horri. It was just and we had air conditioner in there, but as soon as Yeah. Yeah, it didn't work. And back then air conditioning wasn't what it is now. Right. ⁓ I gotta ask you a very specific question about Marathon Man. Which you can probably guess. I'm a study camera operator. So ⁓ you know Marathon Man was probably like maybe the third or fourth movie. I always thought it was the first, but maybe No, the first was actually ⁓ the Woody Guthrie story. Correct ⁓ Bound for Glory. It was that step off and everybody kinda lost their minds. I think Marathon Man might have been the second one. Right. But ⁓ Do you was that the first time you'd seen Study Cam? Yes. And Garrett pulled up and they'd already done shots around of Dustin in New York. Yeah. But we used it for something and I remember it was in his trunk and there was no cases or anything. Really? Well, 'cause a coup I think there weren't cases for a couple of shows. Yeah, there wasn't. And he just kind of put it together and I thought, Jesus. Was it was it mind boggling? It it I knew it was going to revolutionize the The business. If it was good, if it worked. And and from what I'm hearing from you, pulling it out of his trunk and this did it seem what was there a feeling on set of like who the hell is this kid and what and then when you saw it, was it just I mean it was impressive. Now the story that I heard, which I think maybe I heard from Garrett was that he was doing a shot in Marathon Man where he had to s he had to ⁓ go across the street and step up on a on a step or something like that. And back then it was one of the first steady camps, I think it was called the Steady Cam. model it was called the thirty five I've heard but it had it had the you know the the spindle the camera was like locked on there and the spindle went down the post or something like that. And the monitor was up high and he apparently stumbled and someone said to him, you know if you put the monitor down low interest. You could actually watch and ⁓ so I didn't know if you you remembered that sounds like in New York they might have done that. It could have been. It could have been ⁓ so you shot you shot the you shot the interrogation scene ⁓ with pulling the tape. Absolutely. And Conra you know, Conrad Hall was the DP. Always has been my hero. One of the single greatest cinematographers. By the way, and it's funny, I I talk to younger people and they asked me about, you know, this and that and the other, and and when they ask about that, ⁓ about you know what what a great searching for Bobby Fisher, ⁓ to me it's it it's a great movie, but it is one of the single most beautiful movies I've ever seen. Every day on Marathon Man, Conrad and I would have lunch. And we would go to Dailies first and then go to lunch. Okay. And at lunchtime, and we'd have a couple glasses of wine, Conrad would say, I've lost it. He said, That stuff looked like shit. He said, So basically what you're saying is one of the most talented cinematographers in the world who was still had it was was doubting himself constantly. That's actually by the way, if nothing else comes out of this for younger operators to me. Well here's the thing, like I don't know it sounds like you were in a very different situation, it was a different time, but like for me, when I first started and my big break was really on ER and I was the A camera steady cam operator. And steady cam I could do, but A camera I was like, I don't really know what I'm doing. I don't kinda and so you're constantly questioning yourself. So that you go back and forth? From a regular camera to a well, yeah, and I was the only camera. I there's only one camera on the show. ⁓ I Back then you were on camera. So I I was the camera operator for when I was there. I mean, yeah. And ⁓ yeah, it was it was a single camera show. Wow. So ⁓ so yeah, so it was trialed by f and and here's the thing, the first two days or two weeks maybe even, I didn't really even like put a lot of stuff on the truck 'cause I just assumed I was gonna fired. So so going back to Marathon Man, ⁓ first of all, you used to have wine at lunch. ⁓ God, yes. What like like everybody. I But wait, but like officially with catering or or no. No, no, no. We to Oblats. There was a little restaurant right now. Okay, you go out for lunch and have some wine. I gotcha. And Conrad loved to t tell stories, yeah. ⁓ and ⁓ in fact, because of that, Princess and I had our honeymoon in Tahiti. Uhhuh. And of course that's where Conrad's from and he's got his own little island there and and I went his d didn't do you know his dad wrote Was it Mutiny on the Bounty? Yes, no, I think you're right. I think you're right. And we went to visit his house when he was a kid. ⁓ and that's how his connection is in Papieta. ⁓ wow. Yeah. Did everybody own an island back then? No, just me and Zygmunt. Okay. And I sold my portion of the island. I don't know whether Zygmunt did. Yeah. There was like twenty people in on the deal. We bought fifty one acres and put eight real bitchin' cabins on it and everything. That's amazing. For nothing. I think I think it was like a hundred fifty grand or something like that. So tell me about tell me about the ⁓ that that infamous scene in shooting the infamous scene in ⁓ in Marathon Men where he's where he's interrogating him and pulling the teeth and I'll never forget it. It was it was and Sir Lawrence Olivia and I, believe it or not, became real good friends. Really? Yeah. And ⁓ it was just mind boggling, you know, because actually they cut it out of the deal, but they rigged it so when he was drilling the tooth there would be smoke coming out of it. ⁓ boy. And they Because it was too it was they showed it somewhere and people were walking out. It was just too I mean that scene is hard enough to watch as it is. That would have been even more so is it safe? Yeah. It's very, very safe. No. No, it's not safe. It's not safe at ⁓ now you know the you know the story about that scene between Olivier and ⁓ and Dustin Hoffman and Dustin Hoffman being method and staying up for three hours. I was there. Wait, but is that is that a true story? Can you tell that story? Yes. It was when Roy Scheider came in and died. And ⁓ ⁓ Dustin was going crazy how to play it and so on and so forth. Yeah, and he did stay up two or three nights before that and so on and so forth. Yeah. And he didn't know how to play the scene and Sir Lawrence was sitting there getting pissed off. And finally he said, Why don't you just try acting? So it is true. It's true. You you were in the room when he said that I was in the room to say it and also I was in a taxi cab in ⁓ Dublin. Yeah. And we were going along and he found this guy found out that we were, you know, knew that stuff and I was on marathon and he asked me the story. Taxicab driver is It's a classic story. I was there, right? It happened. And I always assume there's part of me that assumed that it's apocryphal, and there's part of me that assumed that that no, there's no co because the that was old school acting meets new school acting, right? Exactly. I'm sure to someone like Olivier that was like, What are you doing? Well you know, years later, on when I was working with Schlesinger again, ⁓ Sir Leonis Olivier came on the set and called me by my my first name and people were just going, Whoa. Really? And because we'd gotten to be buddies on That's great. What was he what was he like as an interval? Great guy. Just a great guy. Great act. And the first day I worked on Marathon Man, I didn't know who he was. And the first shot was taking him off this airplane. Was he not that big of an ac actor yet? No, he was huge. He was. He was the biggest. Okay, that's what I thought. But didn't know I wasn't into that. Yeah. In fact, when I did ⁓ deal with the Rolling Stones, I didn't know who Mick Jagger was. I didn't. And I said which one is let's let's spend the night let's spend the night together, yeah. Right with Caleb. Yeah. Which I did Several with Caleb, you know. Wow. Yeah. ⁓ you didn't know who Big Jack but you knew who the Rolling Stones were. I don't know. I wasn't into that stuff. Wow. That's amazing. I barely knew who the Beatles were. I was a football you I was a sports. Well so let me ask you a question. Like the ⁓ very ⁓ here's the thing. I want to hear all these all these stories, but I also there's a little bit of me that wants to get some nuggets for people who are operating and me, by the way. ⁓ how do you approach working with with with actors, with hard hard look, Lawrence Olivier and and Dustin Hoffman are a perfect example. You had to work with both of them as an operator. One of them is an old school right you know ⁓ you do the and the other one is the new breed which which probably was sort of at that point was that rel I mean were w were people used to people acting that way at that point? Yeah you just had to kind of feel it out. Whatever they were you know, you just had to get along. And I usually got along with people real well. So if I needed ⁓ to move or get up or g do this or that I just approach ⁓ and if it looked like they weren't gonna do it, I'd have to do it with the camera, you know. It's just so basically you you you kind of assess whether you're gonna get the help from them or not. And then and then if you if you don't like I'm gonna I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that in that scene Dustin Hoffman didn't wanna know I I gotta lean to the left to get my light or whatever. So you basically just just try to work around that out of respect for the process. Right. Interesting. Yeah. And and You know, another question that I have, and maybe this I this is my this is my assumption. Now between digital and also I think lighting has changed or whatever, people tend to light spaces and let the actors play in them. And back then I I sort of get the feeling that it was a little bit more like, no, this area is lit and that area is not lit. So so was there less ability to Change things on the fly as an operator if you if you I think you if you knew what you were doing you could do it. You know, you could move the camera or you could ask them to move or you know, and they would pretty much know if they missed their light and stuff like But what about within the shot? Was there ever sort of that jazz of like changing something within it or was it pretty much no, we're set and we'll fix it on the next one? I would think what I would do if they missed their mark and stuff like that, I'd kind of assess it and realize, you know, if I got if if it was if it was gonna work when you saw it, you know, I I would just you know, go with it. You know, if not, if I I'd make a you know, I'd stop and make him redo it. Yeah. And so can you tell me about ⁓ tell me about working with dolly grips. I had two or three of the in fact that was one of my deals on two or three of my movies. I took my Dolly grip with me. Great. Who who was it? Timmy ⁓ I can't think of Timmy's last name. I can't think of anybody's name That's okay. Timmy Timmy Ryan was my dolly grip. So you can't he was a great he was a great storyteller. But he had a he had the the flow, you know, he had he What made him good? He could just go with you know, he could cheat, he could go like me on the camera. He would just, you know, be smooth, know when to start, when to stop. You just knew. The ups and downs were great. It was just great. Yeah. I took him with me on ⁓ being there and several other movies. And this was long, long before what's now, which is they've got a monitor that they look at. This was he ha he just had to be sighting along the camera and know the frame. Right. That's amazing. Yeah. In fact, a great story, Spielberg wanted to be an operator. Really? You know, and I didn't want him to operate. You mean he wanted to operate shots on his movies? Sometimes, yeah. So the first time he wanted to operate it was on Close Encounters. Yeah. And we had the PSR then we I don't We might have had the Panaflex. Maybe it was a Panaflex. But it was a little truck and it was gonna go, you know, a little model truck was gonna go to so Spielberg got behind the camera like that. I just held the magazine. So he's on the wheels and you're you're for starting to go and he and the truck goes So I told him, I said, You know, if somebody was on that camera that knew what they were doing, we wouldn't have to redo it. And he just got up. That's fantastic. ⁓ my gosh. But he operates everything now. Yeah. And it's probably a pretty good operator too, I bet. Yeah, yeah. I mean mi Mitch Dubin is his A camera operator. I should ask Mitch whether he ⁓ whether he jumps on there or not. ⁓ he probably does. ⁓ I think he does. Do you think it's a do you think it's a control thing or do you think it's just he likes to be in the process? He's just he's just Mr. Movies, you know. That's his whole life. Yeah. It was you know, he was he's incre it's like Caleb, you know. Did you ever work with Caleb or no? I never worked with you know, I I missed a lot of those guys, unfortunately. ⁓ he's probably retired now. Yeah. but he followed the guy that did the Godfather. What the hell was this? Gordon Willis. Gordon Willis. And he would go Caleb would go to eight movies on the weekend, you know, just to check lightings up again. But he was a total into the movies, which I wasn't. I mean I was, but I did okay, but I wasn't like those guys. Gotcha. ⁓ you know, I I I know what I know what you're saying. Yeah. I was actually just ⁓ I was just talking to a friend of mine, Buzzmoyer, who's a great study cam operator. I've heard that, yeah. A camera study cam operator. And he does he does B camera study cam on the Spielberg movies now with Mitch. Uhhuh. And ⁓ and he was saying to me, he said the first movie he did was The Post and he did this big study cam shot. And he said, you know, at the end he pulls up and and he he holds a lock off and he happens to notice that Spielberg's standing next to him at the end holding an iPad, which is now how you watch a lot of the shots, and he's watching it. And he's just got this big smile on his face. And it was great 'cause Buzz was like it was so great 'cause it was just like he was just this guy who really loves movies and he likes and he's happy that he's watching it. And I I thought that was you know, still at this point. I have to tell you about my steady cam shot. And my only steady cam shot. What y what year is this? No idea. But it was but Garrett was not available. Yeah, seventies on the Exorcist II. Okay. And Borman came to me and said this is John Borman the director? Yes. We want to go down these steps. The steps? The steps? Steps. Like but but I mean the Exorcist steps, like those steps? No, no, no. Okay. And there's a little river, and then he said, I want you to come up with the steady cam. Okay. And we're gonna mat, so you have to be steady. We're gonna mat We're gonna mat a tiger coming out of his mouth. ⁓ my god. So I said he said, Do you think you've never put a steady cam on before this? He said, Do you think you could do it? I said, Are you kidding me? Piece of cake. So I put the steady cam on. And the door he had to go through was about this wide. Yeah. Just wide enough for my shoulders. And then it was straight down ten steps. Yeah. And then so when I went through, I put the steady cam out. And of course then I couldn't get it back. Yeah. And I went all the way down. So it was get it was getting away from you basically. So it gets another thing where it starts getting away and you try to get it and it gets away. So I got down there and then I brought it back up and of course the thing was shaking like shit. So the next day at at Dalys I said, How was it? Borman said, unusable So we got ge we got Garrett back to do it. Yeah. When he was available. That's fantastic. So I took Garrett over there and he said, Nick it's an impossible shot. Yeah. You can't get through this And throw that out. Well, you felt a little better, right? You said what I will do is I'll t have him make this doorway this wide. So I and I didn't know. But that's the last time I ever put the steady cam on. Smart. One what yeah. I don't think I could be a very good steady cam on. Look, there's some people who can and some people who can't. It's just and there's no rhyme or reason to it. I th it well, there's a little bit, but not much. ⁓ did you ever work with Ted Churchill? I knew him very well. You did. But didn't he pass away? He did. He died. It's it's probably going on fifteen years now. Yeah, I used him back in Florida a lot for Burt Reynolds stuff. He was from Florida, wasn't he? I don't know. He li I know he lived in New York. I don't know where he was from originally. That's right. But I understand in his backyard somewhere, he had a whole like a place that he would run with the study camp. ⁓ I guarantee he probably did. Yeah. You know, the there there's ⁓ the the saying that Garrett invented the study cam and Ted invented the operator. Yeah. Yeah. He was a personality. Yeah, he was great. Yeah, you have any good Ted stories? I don't remember anything. Okay. But I remember sometimes when I'd get a steady cam in there and the steady cam operator would come in with the director there and take it, you know, and I'd be watching him he'd be doing a three sixty. Yeah. And he'd say, What do you think? I said I would say that okay, you light it. Yeah. Right. ⁓ what about being ⁓ there? What was ⁓ Being there was probably my favorite movie I ever done ever. Just because of Hal Ashby was my second favorite director of all times. Caleb wasn't a big shot at the time. He was kinda coming up. Okay. Great cat. Peter Sellers and I actually became good friends. Really? And ⁓ it was you know, we did the first part in Washington DC. I've never been there before. Yeah. So I got to see a couple weeks of Washington D C and then we did we were in the Asheville the Biltmore mansion. ⁓ in Asheville, North Carolina. Beautiful. I didn't rule I didn't realize that's where that is. That's where it was. That makes perfect sense. Yeah. And you know the driveway from the street to the steps is three miles. ⁓ my god. Three miles through there. So I knew every inch of that building. ⁓ y you were there for months or at least, yeah. Wow. And the funny thing about that, Caleb had a condo right below me and his two little gals out that are big movie stars now. They were like six and eight years old. ⁓ okay. And when it would snow they'd get the suitcase and have a sled down the hill and stuff like that. It's amazing to see that. That's great. It was just a great movie, you know. You could tell you could tell w is that one of those movies that working on it you could go, this is gonna be a classic? I don't really know until till the end, but there's more in fact I was doing an interview in in Dublin and it's like the Howard Stern of Dublin. He was going along and you know, he Known about a few of the movies I did and they slipped him a piece of paper that I did being there. The guy went nuts and what? Look, it's a it's a great, great movie and it and it stands the test of time. There's no question about it. ⁓ yeah. I mean I you know what's funny is now that we're talking about it, I should see it again because I haven't seen it in a long time. But I guarantee you it holds up. It's Chauncey Gardner. Well you know the the author was with us who committed suicide later. ⁓ I didn't know that. Jersey Gaczynski was his name. ⁓ Jer Jersey Gacinski. Maybe I did know that. Anyway. But so you've mentioned now twice that you've become good friends with with these fairly big actors. I did big actors. I'm actually a pretty friendly people and get along with people. Obviously. But but but a lot of actors are are, you know, they they're a little there are a few. They've got some. But but even even the ones who don't, I think they kinda have their guard up to people because a lot of everybody wants something, right? So what do you what do you at I mean, you obviously have a way with actors, and I'm sure that works on said. Yeah, not all but But most, you know, and like you say, some are just jerks. Well, but they're like everybody else, right? I mean there's some people who are and some people aren't. But I mean do you think it's because you just treat them like people or I do, yeah. I treat ⁓ well and and expect to be treated well back. So yeah. ⁓ You've got a tough job and and you're in front of the camera and I have all deference for that. But I also have a tough job and and we we all deserve respect. And when you say that it might piss ⁓ off, but it might not, too. So you don't know what's exactly right. Yeah. So you just kinda have to play it by ear. Did you ever you ever work with and you don't have to name them, any actors that it was just absolutely impossible to work with. Warren was beady and I did two or three things with him. Yeah. But he was just a jerk. You know, he just he was he would honest to God. on two or three of the movies, we would start betting on what we'd get to take. Thirty to forty, forty to fifty You are kidding. And Julie Christie, she would say, Warren, you're such an asshole. Because he's a because he's a perfectionist? Yes. Or he thought he didn't get it right. Yeah, yeah. In fact, on McCabe and Mrs. Miller, that was the name that I couldn't think of. ⁓ yeah. You were you were an assistant on that or you were I was an operator. I ended up as an operator. I did like the B C C camera stuff. Gotcha and that was in Canada. That was Vilmosh, right? Yes. Yeah. Okay. But there was a scene, it was a Friday night, and we had the weekends off, but we started the scene at six o'clock. Yeah. And the scene was this. Warren Beattie was drunk, he was in a hot tub, and his arm falls off the thing and it splashes up and he wakes up. That's the scene. That's the whole thing. That's the scene. Okay. Midnight. Really? Midnight. How many takes? Forever. Maybe a hundred. But could you Altman left. Altman said after take ten, he says, I got what I need. See you guys. And he left. And then Beattie was basically directing it. So a and let me ask you this. Could you actually sense a difference betwi from one take to the next? No. Do you think that he could sense something? Or was it just that he couldn't find I don't know. He wow. He would get out and do push ups and he just had a huge ego, you know. He just yeah. That's a tough one. Yeah. ⁓ I I so b back to camera operating, ⁓ just because I should ask you some of these things, although I could get lost in these stories. These stories are fantastic. What what do you what do you think the difference between a between a good operator and a great operator is? Hmm. That's a that's I think well then a great operator would be somebody that gets along with everybody, that's very coordinated, that knows when to move and when not to move. And a regular operator was just you make the moves. But if you kinda got into it, got into the movie, knew what was going on, knew what the day dialogue is. Yeah. You know, know when you can cheat, when you can't cheat. Yeah. That would be the difference to me. ⁓ that's great. and and you used to work with assistants who were next to the camera, right? Yes. You know where assistants are now? I think they're in the n next room or something. They're in another room a lot of times. And The interesting thing that I don't know and and you came from assisting to operating. There had to be an unbelievable I mean, I ⁓ while I'm saying this, I know the answer to it, but I want to hear your take on it. There had to be something in the fact that since you were sitting on the dolly and you knew that physically the dolly was moving, you just learned how cameras moved and you you knew that the operator was panning and this and that. And there had to be so much of that that you must have internally just understood without even knowing you wanted to do I have this big fear now that that's all it's not a fear, it's a reality. That that's all that's all gone because they don't have that that input. The other thing that they don't they don't hear is like you used as an assistant used to sit and listen to the dolly the dolly grip and the camera operator talk all the time, right? All that stuff. Right. So ⁓ yeah, ⁓ it's anyway. ⁓ did you do a lot of l shows where there was you were the A camera operator and there was a B camera operator, or were they mostly I think so, yeah. I think on a lot of ⁓ ⁓ that we found out you could work a lot quicker with two cameras. And what what do you as an A camera operator, what do you what what do you expect from a B camera operator? What makes a good B camera operator? I think just knowing his job and and you know and and staying in his own department and and ⁓ helping me and and ⁓ Do you expect them to check in with you on hey, what do you think of this? What do you think of that? And if they have a shot that to pitch ⁓ If it looks good, I'd go for But better to go through you before going to the DP to make sure they're not stuck on toes. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you you mentioned you mentioned that you were the DP on Friends. I was. For a hundred episodes. A hundred episodes. And you got nominated for a couple Emmys? I got three, yeah. Yeah, it's amazing. I didn't get ⁓ I got nominated. Should have won for one of them. You know, you what, the the thing the thing that I always say about those things is to me it's I know everybody says this, but The nomination is what's key because at the end of the day you have five things and it's sort of like my friend says it's like the dog the dog show. Yeah. That Schnauzer is a better dog than that poodle. I mean at the end you know. And ⁓ what wha what's the difference between ⁓ that was a four camera sitcom show? Four camera, yeah. What's the difference between you, an operator on these big movies where you were the A camera operator and and one of these sitcom operators ⁓ Well you you can you don't have to be a great operator to be a sitcom operator. Okay. You're There's you know, and the lighting isn't great. You know, I mean what there's A to D A B C D cameras and what's front light for this camera is backlight for this camera. So you know, unless the director or the producers come to you and say, Look at we want this specifically, I'd say, Okay, let's do it with one camera and I'll light it the way I light it in a movie. Yeah. And the producers always back me. We had great producers on that. Sure. Did you ever have a situation where ⁓ you were on a show and the D P and the director weren't playing well together and they were coming up and going, No do this and the other one's coming up and saying, No, no, no, do this. Yes. What what do you do? I just usually do what the director wanted. Yeah. Yeah. Well it depends what my relationship with the D P was too. Sure. If the D P was a jerk, you know Well let's say you let's say though, ⁓ clearly if you like one and you don't like the other, that's where you're going. You know where your next job's coming from. But let's say you like both of them, but they're just not they're what would I probably make my own choice and just see what was the right thing for me to do. Yeah. Just get in there and do it. How involved were you in designing shots back then or or as a D P? ⁓ no, is it no sorry when you were operating? a little bit. Depend on the D P how much you trusted me. Some And I would yeah. How about with Vilmosh? Vilmos pretty much he wanted his certain hi his certain ⁓ it's actually where I won compos or learned composition from him. Yeah. And so it would you know, he would pretty well give you the first the opening composition and the end composition. Yeah. And like I told you, a few times I didn't get it. Told me I was ruining his business. And you just do that with what? ⁓ with a viewfinder, ⁓ director's viewfinder or something like that? I would do it on the shot and I think Most of the time no, towards the end we had video, so he could tell what I was doing. Yeah, once you had video. So so go gearing towards, you know, newer operators, 'cause you were talking about composition, w w when you're when you're composing a shot, what are what are the things that you used to think about? well the way Vilmos you know, he ⁓ in the scene he always wanted something very, very dark and something very, very light. And if there was a big something to compose on, you know, it was pretty obvious. Yeah. But if you gave the camera to f ten different operators, they would and just say, you know, give me an opening. It would they'd be different probably. So it's just like what's in your brain, you know, for good what looks good, you I was gonna say, so is it the kind of thing where you just find and it just it happens to look right to you? You just sort of know? Exactly. And it was that there when you started operating or did you achieve it? I think most of my composition was from working with Zygman all those years. Yeah. And I think I ended up which isn't a bad thing to It's not a bad person to learn learn from Right. And I did. I ran Yeah. You know, and you're talking about being nominated for an Emmy. Zygmunt and I got nominated the same year. He got nominated for a TV deal, you said. And we showed up and we were almost sitting, you know, across from each other. Yeah. And it was almost embarrassing to be and all of a sudden he didn't get it. Because you're saying like here's this guy who's this big cinematographer and he's and he as soon as his He didn't win. He was gone, you know. I looked over to see and he was empty. Wow. If you had an idea of the shot that was different than what the DP or the director were coming up with, how did you how did you depend who the director was. When I did a lot with Burt Reynolds, who d was a very good director. Yeah. But I would always go to him and I would say, What do you think about this? Yeah. And he would s he would tell me what he thought. But mo ninety percent of the time he'd say, Do it. Let's see what happens. Gotcha. So he gave you he gave you one. He was just a great I you know, we didn't get into Burt Reynolds much, but he was one of my best buddies. Yeah. One of my best friends. He made me a D P. Yeah. And what was the fact that good story. Yeah. Okay, we're in Sharky's machine. Okay. You had worked on shows with him as an operator, I'm assuming. You knew him? Okay. Yes. But we're on Sharky's Machine, we're doing a thousand millimeter lens across this thing to a apartment where the hookers were in, stuff like that. So ⁓ you know Zygmunt did deliverance. Yep. So Bert was s sitting next to me and ⁓ we were talking about deliverance and ⁓ Zygmunt, you know, how great he was, so on and so forth. And Bert got up and started to walk out of the room, and he turned around and he said, Well, I'm gonna make you a DP and he walked out. And at the time Princess and I were together. Okay. And you know, she knew Bert ten times better than I did because of Sally. ⁓ that's right, because of Sally. And ⁓ so I went back to the room at night and I said, you know, he said he's gonna make me a D P and she said, Well he's he's not much of a liar. Yeah. About six months later I got a script at my house for to be move up on a feature. What what movie? ⁓ sh Stroker Ace. Stroke or Ace. And Lonnie was in it. And he was dating Lonnie at the time. He might have been married to her. But anyways, then about a week later I got a note to shoot a test on Lonnie. Yeah. Well, they weren't testing me. I mean, they weren't tossing Lonnie. They testing me. They testing you. But I had the best gaffer in Hollywood. Who was that? ⁓ Gary Holt, who tragically had a bad fall and you know, he was he was actually ready to be one of the biggest DPs in Hollywood. Yeah. And he hit his head on something and he's he's alive still but he's kinda not all there. That's so sad. Just sad. Just a sad deal. But ⁓ yeah, so the the test came back and I got the movie. Yeah. In fact Mike Jeannie was on it with me. Was he your operator? No, I think he was an assistant. Assistant? But I remember I was so new that I would send Mike to go to you know talk to the lab in the morning. Yeah. And I'd watch him coming back. To see if he had a smile on his face or a frown on his face. You mean as a DP you couldn't you couldn't deal with guns and I didn't have time to go up, you But so I'd send Mike because he'd call all that. Yeah. And ⁓ I would yeah, depending on what his frame of mind when he came back. Sure, sure, sure. And that movie I could shoot now with my eyes closed. It was, you know, ninety percent exterior, you know. ⁓ okay. And maybe a few sets, very few sets. But yeah, it was ⁓ but then I went from picture to picture to picture after that. What are the movies did you do with him? Did you shoot for him? ⁓ I did Horror House, I know. Okay. But I think I was the operator on the yeah, because Fraker was that How was Dolly Parton? Yeah, she was great. Yeah. She was absolutely great. She seems wonderful. She's like one of my favorite people. Abolutely good. I never work with her, but just the greatest. Yeah. Yeah. And I did with Bert, I went down in fact I directed a two hour movie. ⁓ really? For Bert. Yeah, it was called BL Striker. It was a T V movie, you mean? Yeah, yeah. It was like it was like a Columbo, one of those things, two hour T V deal. I did we did like two years of those. Wow. And I did all kinds of stuff with him. I can't remember all the stuff. That's great. But he and I just became good good friends. That's fantastic. Yeah. And I used to stay at this place. He had this mansion. Yeah. ⁓ in Jupiter, Florida. And then he had the ranch there. So it was it was back in those days he had it all. I'm sure. He was it was like one of the biggest stars in the world. Had his own jet. Wow. Yeah, which back then was it w that wasn't That was normal, right? And he had his own helicopter. Wow. And we would on stick, we'd work out in the cane fields, mm-hmm. And the guys would have to and take ⁓ an hour going over these bumpy roads. Yeah. And we just got jump in Bert's helicopter and pop out. Must be nice. Yeah. ⁓ is there a movie that you worked on ⁓ or a TV show. ⁓ but probably a movie I would imagine, that you think never got the credit it deserved. Like it was some movie you love that Just never made it or or Yeah. There was one that I did with Paul Newman. Paul Newman directed it. He wasn't in it. Okay. It's called The Shadow Box. Never heard of it. Yeah. Nobody ever heard of it. I was the operator. Okay. But he was it was about people dying of cancer. ⁓ wow. And that's why it never made it. Sure. But Paul was the director and he was great to work with. Wasn't yeah. And ⁓ it it c it was a good movie, but it never made it because Yeah. Of the what it was about. Who shot it? You remember? ⁓ a guy named Adam Hollander. ⁓ Adam Hollander, right? He shot Midnight Cowboys. Yes, that's why I know his name. And he's a very good friend of mine. Just a great guy. I did two or three movies with him. ⁓ And he was j we used to just screw with him all the time. He was from Poland. He was Polish. Okay. And ⁓ just a great guy. Chichin Chong's next movie. You gotta have some stories from It was terrific. And the D P who kind of dropped out of sight was ⁓ King Baggett. King Baggett, okay. Yeah, who's he started as a news cameraman and somehow got the movie of it. One of those guys must have liked him. Yeah. But yeah, I was the camera operator. It was great. They were they weren't big drug addicts. I think they smoked a lot of pot and stuff like that. But they were in shape. They loved to work out. And every Friday night after we'd rap we'd have a big party on the margaritas and the it was just fun. That's great. Great time, yeah. Location shows back then were basically just a constant party, right? This w yeah, this was actually at university. But in general though, location shows. ⁓ God, yeah. I'm not a big drinker anymore, but in back in those days, ⁓ my god. Yeah. Were people were pe ⁓ people drinking on set? Absolutely. Really. And you'd come in in the mor I remember first when I did work for my stepfather, you'd walk in the morning, you know that real whiskey breath, you know, the grips and stuff. They all smelt like that. Wow. You know, but that's kind of gone away, I think. It's gone away. It's or i it if it hasn't gone away, it's been pushed to back to you know, it's not as open as as it was. And drugs were a real big thing. But I never did drugs, so I was okay with that. Was it I mean, I've heard I've heard the stories of of you know, the the the camera ⁓ the film the film ⁓ tin going around with cocaine on it and people just Absolutely Absolutely in fact I told you about Julia Phillips who's now is past, but I lived with her for a couple of years. Yeah. She was a huge drug addict. And and then there was a lot of people back then, right? It was I mean ⁓ and and w was it was production buying this? They they had no choice, you know. And so production would literally buy cocaine for No, but Julia would buy she was the producer that she would buy it, and then she would give it to her A D's. You know, and th they'd be all, you know, they had Funny ways to do it. They would blow it on each other's mouth and stuff like that. But I told her one time, I said, You know, you're nothing but a drug addict. She says, Well, you're nothing but a wino, which kinda try it's a different world, there's no question. She was brilliant too. Wow. Wow. She did four major movies. Yeah. And I can't think of the name of ⁓ now, but Close Encounters was like I mean that's huge right there. Not bad. Absolutely. What were the hours like back then? Were they crazy? Horrible. But they still are. Nick on on Grace Anatomy, he works You know, twelve, fourteen hours. But but but weren't the unions but weren't you getting crazy money for yes going ⁓ so you're just making a lot more money. Yeah. In fact, on the Deer Hunter, I flew from LA to I think Hong Kong and then Hong Kong to Thailand. Yeah. I was on the clock the whole time. Wow. So once I was over eight hours, you know, it was triple time or quadruple time or something. But they didn't care back in that. That was just that was just the way and that's why those movies cost as much as they did. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. ⁓ someone who's coming up as a camera operator now. They're starting out as a camera operator. You got any advice for ⁓ just practice on the wheels, I think is the best. It it's not the same, you know. Once you get there it's a little different. I remember I used to always have problems when somebody would be running at you. Yeah. You know, to you know, their head would go out or yeah, you just practice. And I think the more agile you are, the more athletic you are, the better off you are, you know. Sure. It's yeah, I would just practice a lot and I wouldn't move up unless you knew the D P was backing you. ⁓ because if the D P wasn't backing you, you wouldn't be around. I mean, if he wanted to get rid of you and have somebody else come in, you know, that's that's that could be easily done. Yeah. But if the if you think the guy was backing you or if the guy asked you to move up, then I think you had a real good shot. What about what about advice ⁓ for the politics of being an operator? ⁓ I just think you just have to play it straight, you know, just you know, just you know, talk to the director, talk to the D P and and you can pretty well figure out who's who's what and be smart. What yeah, just be smart. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember ⁓ b ⁓ back when you're doing close encounters, back when you were doing, you know, all all these these great being there and and deer hunter and whatever? Were there other than sort of Makeup and hair and wardrobe. Were there any women in any of the departments? We had a couple gals in camera, but very few, I think two. ⁓ huh. At Leslie Hill was one was Was that rare? Yes. Yeah, there wasn't anybody girls. ⁓ huh. I can't think of the other departments either, but yeah, but makeup and hair was yeah. So you'd never you'd never seen a a a woman who's a grip? I did towards when I started doing sitcoms. Yeah, you started doing sitcoms. Then some electricians, yeah. Yeah. And they were damn good too. Yeah. ⁓ absolutely. It's just they just didn't get the chances back then. Exactly. ⁓ it's great that it's changed a little bit. Yep. ⁓ we were walking outside in Panavision over by the I they call it the Panna Bar, the coffee bar here. Right. And ⁓ you saw all the cameras. Right. Tell me about the camera that you found there. What I w saw over there and I heard that my name was on it, but I noticed I didn't see my name on it. But That was the first Panaflex that came from Panavision and it was like rev it was like the steady cam actually. Really? It was well the PSR was this big and the Panaflex was this big. Yeah. And remember when Jordan first saw the Jordan Cronenworth saw the Panaflex. They said, How can we improve it? And Jordan says, Give me a lens with a handle on it. But yeah, that was the first Panaflex. They sent one to me. How many were there at that time? Two, I think, maybe. But they sent one to me and one what movie? On Sugarland Express. And one to Papayon. Yeah. And when I got mine, I gave the before I even used it, I gave it to Johnny Connors, who was my assistant, I believe, from Chicago. And he took it in an old barn and we had four magazines and I think three of ⁓ scratched. ⁓ wow. So I sent those back immediately. And there probably weren't that many magazines in existence. No, and I don't think there was a thousand footer. I think there were four hundred foot. ⁓ my gosh. But Zygmunt maybe I had two, but Zygmunt said, screw it, let's use it. And we did some of the shots inside the car in ⁓ Sugarland immediately. Wow. He wanted to use it right now, whether it scratched or not. He was just Amazing. He was so it was it revel it was like your steady camera. And was that the first time you could you could put a thirty five millimeter camera up on your shoulder? Absolutely. There was a There was a ⁓ this is a good story. There was a thirty five millimeter sound camera that was an Airy, but it had this long blimp tomb. Did you ever see one of those? Is it the B L one? No. Okay. It was something before that. Okay. And you put the camera in there and it was a long throat and you'd th have to thread it up. ⁓ wow. I hated it. And actually on Sugar Land, one of the stunt gals who I was kind of seeing ⁓ I put the camera right at the end and I told her, I said, If you run over that camera, I'll take you out to dinner. And she did. She she bashed it. It was just ⁓ well. ⁓ just a pain in the butt. It just took forever to load it and it was noisy and it was it was this big. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll bet they have one around here somewhere in the archives or Yeah. So so so this was really unbelievably revolutionary. And was w was the optics better than than any it was perfect. It was just great, yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. So when you you were given One of two in existence. No, I was pretty pretty up on that stuff. You know, I just whatever makes it easier or better, I was go I was Gotcha. Now Sugarland Express I I was reading has something and I don't remember I I saw the movie so long ago, like so long ago. But there was something about it's the first time there was a car sh there was a shot in a car that went from the back seat to the front seat or something like that. Well that was probably when we had the Panaflex. It was probably when we would pa you know, we'd the the car would come up alongside and we pan through the deal around to this and I think I started operating from one deal and I'd send it to to Zygmunt. ⁓ so it's a handoff. Yeah. But it would one or something? It was on a tripod. It was on a tripod. Interesting. ⁓ wow. That's amazing. ⁓ that's incredible. So you were basically using the first Panaflex that there was. It was the first, yeah. Panaflex well, you saw it. Yeah. That's incredible. That's incredible. And I had when I when this is how Panavision was in those days. When when we sent the camera back, Gotchuk, the guy do you know who Gotchak is? I the name sounds like He was the he was the president of Panavision. He was the originator of Panavak. ⁓ okay. Gotcha. And he would call me up and say, tell me everything you would need on that camera to fix. Yeah. And there was like a little I built that little lens. Well, when I sent it back, I had a piece of cardboard. So, you know, the sun would hit the the meter, the ⁓ so you could you could see it. You could see the footage. So then they they recessed it a little bit, yeah. And then there was a deal where you could hit that thing in the back, the the twenty four frame thing. Yeah. And this would get in there so you couldn't ⁓ those two little like knobs that come up and hold it in place so that I kind of those are the things you don't know till you have it on in real world, right? You don't think about them. Right. That's amazing. So yeah, and you were also telling me that back then, tell me where what Pan what was Panavision like back then? Well we went to do the Eddie Riel and I were going to be the assistants on McCabe and Mrs. Miller. And to be do on Panavision, you were a big time assistant then. You got extra money and everything for Really? It was called ⁓ I forget. But you get like a dollar more because you were using you new Panavis. Yeah. But it was in West Hollywood. Okay. There was one employee. Really? And we went there and the the cases were all lined up and we loaded up. We thought we were the big shots. That was the big deal. Yeah. And I guess Zygmunt said, I want to use Panavision. Yeah. Sure, they must have been. Yeah. That's amazing. And then they moved over here, you know, to the other building, I think. Yeah. Yeah. And then now they got two ⁓ and they're on different coasts and whatnot. Do you remember the first time remote heads became sort of normal? Yeah, I used on Best Little Whorehouse in Texas, I used the Luma for the first time. Yeah. And ⁓ Was Andy Romanoff with you? I think he was. Okay. What w what was was that just mind boggling what you could do with it? Yeah. What yeah. Do you remember it what did it it worked well? It worked great. Yeah. I remember the shot I did and everything before. What was the shot? It was ⁓ in front of the whorehouse and Dolly was coming out. Yeah. And then we panned around and actually Dolly too, I think. And and w c is it is it that you there was be no other way to do that before that? There probably was a way to do it, but it was it was new stuff and we you want to get it you know out there and use it. Would you would you do that with like a Titan on a on a driving a Titan or something like that? Yeah. I was just But thing about the Luma, I think it had a video camera on it. Yeah. Does that sound right? I I I think it had a video. So in other words, ⁓ because there was no video assist, there was a video camera essentially next to it, so it was like looking in parallax, so you were kinda guessing what it was or whatever. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. ⁓ John Toll was telling me about the ⁓ Those ⁓ whatever I don't remember what camera it was, but with the rack over system where you had the B N C R Yeah the B N C R Yeah, where you had to actually ⁓ you know adjust the eyepiece for every every lens and everything. And then you parallax, you had a viewfinder and you had little cams you put in. Cams, that's what it And you'd go, you know, move this focus in and move the thing in and out. It's incredible to me that anything was in focus and anything was in frame. I the first picture I ever did was with or big picture I did was ⁓ it was in Japan. With Donnie Peterman, who was one of my best friends, the greatest guy ever. But we used a BNCR over there. Mm-hmm. And ⁓ you know, ⁓ I can remember getting a few s things that shouldn't be in the shot in the shot, you know. But it was it was really cool. That that's fantastic. What other what other shows did you work on that you haven't talked about that were just great? I can't remember. In fact, I started looking at my IMBD this morning and I went, Jesus. There's a lot, right? Yeah. It's impressive. It just goes on and actually is, yeah. It's a career. I was impressed with myself. D w back when you were operating on these things with Vilmosh and Sugarland and this and that and the other, was it a small enough industry that kinda everybody knew each other? God, I think it was in those days. Yeah. You kind of knew Yeah. people that I think are massive people were just starting out. Yeah. ⁓ you know what I actually wanted to ask you funny ⁓ lady. ⁓ a great story. Yeah. Great story. I figure there's gotta be good stuff for it. Great story. Well we got in there and we'd just come off something big too, and I can't remember what it was. But Zygmunt and Barbara Streisand just didn't get along. ⁓ And I remember we were d pre lighting her one day and Vilmos asked her to sit down on this apple box or get up on the something and Streisand said, What, the camera doesn't go up? And I went, ⁓ So we did this opening shot of there's all black dancers and the song was It's Gonna Be a Great Day. Okay. Then I'll never forget the song. Yeah. So the next day we came in and everything was very after we shot all day and it was very quiet. And I saw him come in and take Zygman out the back door. They fired him right then and there. And when I saw Dailies, y all you could see Of it's gonna be a great day is their white teeth. ⁓ geez. So it was under i and he could have got screwed, you Yeah, yeah. You don't know what happened. But in those days he was forced developing two stops and flashing and yeah, doing everything that Zygmunt did. But then Jimmy Wang Hao, the great old cameraman came in. You worked with James Wanghao? Yes. ⁓ my gosh. And in fact, Mike Jeanie was there too. How old was he at that point? I don't remember. He was an old man. I was a kid. That's amazing. They brought him in and I had to stay there because his operator wasn't available. So I had to stay with him for like a week, stuff like that. So it was pretty interesting. What was he like? He's great. Yeah. But I remember Mike Jeanie, myself, Cal Roberts were all on it, ⁓ another assistant, and we'd all just bought houses and we all just had been fired and we were walking off the lot together and we were thinking, ⁓ jeeze, what's next? ⁓ my gosh. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. We only lasted a day on that. Wow. Or Zygmunt only lasted a day. Wow. It was it was fun. That's incredible. Really fun. I mean, do you remember James Wang Hao coming in and you and you thinking, ⁓ my gosh, this is James Wang Hao. Yeah. He was very impressive then too. You know, he he already won a couple of Academy Awards. And and was this at the time where they were still using like arc lights and whatnot? Sure. I used arc lights on the Goonies. Yeah. Really? ⁓ I had a bunch of arc lights on it. And and for people who people who may not know, tell t explain what an arc light is. Arc light was where you have a positive and a negative and you strike it and the ⁓ whatever it the charge, yeah electrical charge is what gives you the light. So it's basically almost a fire inside this thing, right? It is a fire, yeah. And there was a there was like a smokestack or chimney or something. So were s the sets just unbearably hot? No, because on the Goonies it was stage sixteen, which is in fact when y they would yell lunch, we'd have to go ten minutes early just to get the guys down. ⁓ gotcha. It was like a hundred feet up to those things. Well the guys who were up there must have been must have been burning up because all the heat went up. I took Julia, my producer friend, on close encounters up into the grids one time. ⁓ And I said to her, these are the guys that really are the hard workers. Yeah. She couldn't believe it. Wow. Yeah, no, no. I I in the in that ⁓ it was so hot there that they're all walking in their underpants and they had like ice up there and you know horrible. It was tough. That was a different time. It was a different time. But it was worth it. ⁓ The Rose? The Rose was actually the best helicopter shot I've ever done in my life. What was it? it was right on her last concert and I had the best pilot at the time. Was it her this is Bet Medler. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And she was on the stage and it's where she d has a drug overdose. It's such a long time since I've seen it, but yeah. Yeah, and she and it was the shot starts I was the The she's down on the stage down below, and it starts and you hear the the music going and all these people are going like this. And I came around there's a stadium full of thousands of people. Right. Which were paid. So extras. And she was ⁓ I'm sure she probably did a little bit of a concert for him or something. ⁓ of course. Yeah. Yeah. And we got ⁓ did the whole shot coming around and then just I was on the back of her you know, doing it was Great helicopter. Is this why are you on a like a Tyler mount or something like that? Is that what I It was a it was another it wasn't the Tyler, but it was another one, like I forget what you're actually manually operating the camera? Yeah. But I did a lot of did a lot of helicopter work. Yeah. And then I got known for it and then I did a lot of commercials. ⁓ For ⁓ with my pilot and And did you get into that just because you're on a show and they want a helicopter and they're I know. I just like the helicopter stuff. ⁓ you know why? I'm thinking about it now. Don Morgan who's still alive, a great DP. Yeah. the first sh show I was on, I think I remember I saw this helicopter land and Don Morgan was the operator and he got out and I said to myself, I'm gonna do that someday. Really? That's I think really what what's what started my helicopter work. I did a lot of it. Yeah. A lot of especially on Beale Stryker and stuff, I did all kinds of helicopter stuff, which was great. Yeah and I had in my own pilot but Bert hi Bert had a ranch foreman that he sent to helicopter school. ⁓ wow. But he was real talented. And Bert had his own helicopter, so we could do any shot we wanted, you know. That's amazing. Yeah. Wow. Wonderful. And you know what I used to make? What's that? And I was the hottest camera operator. Twenty five dollars an hour. Twenty five dollars an hour. And that was a good was that w was twenty five dollars an hour what the union was paying or you you negotiated above the rate? I think I negotiated above the rate. And then I'd get a box rental too. Yeah. In those days. I w they Was the box rental for something actually? They would ask me what's in the box and I'd say these grants. And then you get like two or three hundred bucks extra. That's fantastic. Yeah. And ⁓ was it hard to make deals with the producers? Was it was were the it depends on if they wanted you. Yeah. And also, you know, you know, when you try and get your name, your yeah, credits on the on the deals, you didn't get that until they wanted your name. ⁓ once you they wanted your name for you know that say we got a good crew here. I gotcha. Then you'd get it, but you wouldn't get it. Well and what w what was was was the union beneficial to you back then? Was it tough? Yeah, well it had to be because they couldn't do anything without it. You know, but what about I mean, you know, ⁓ d as far as, you know, ⁓ just what was the union like back then? Were you involved in it or not at all. Just the same I never been involved in anything. The only thing I really wanted to be in was the academy. Yeah. And I once I got in the academy, I was, you know I didn't want to be in the d the ASC or the this, that but you got in the academy for for Friends or for television? No. I got in the real Academy, Film Academy. Would and the interesting thing about that I'd done a whole bunch of movies and then I started doing sitcoms. And then I I applied to get in the academy, which is unlike me. I you know but I wanted to get in. And they they only vo vote like once or twice a year. Okay. And my key grip I thought I was talking about, I said I don't think I got voted in. And my key grip was good friends with Conrad. He said, ⁓ you're in. Yeah. I talked to Conrad last night and he said they voted you in. ⁓ And that was the biggest I think I got in in ninety six or something like that. But I I really wanted to be a part of the academy. That's pretty cool. Have you seen the museum? I haven't been yet. But but what I have done what I have done there, which I highly recommend, is they have a theater. That is the nicest theater I've ever been in. I don't think I got into that. It's ⁓ it's y well they they have movies that they show which which you can get well you you can put it. I'm a member actually. But ⁓ so I went and saw what did I see? I took my family and I went and saw Goodfellas there. So you actually have been to the museum? I've been to the theater. I've I mean I've been to the building. I haven't been through the museum. ⁓ I see. I I need to go. But ⁓ but the what I was gonna say was A it's a fantastic theater. We have an actual projectionist who knows what he's doing. Right. And the bigger thing for me is look, I I obviously like everybody else, I stopped ⁓ going to movies during COVID. But the reality is I stopped me too. Yeah, but I stopped before that because I was so tired of people being on their phones and people talking and whatever. And the thing about the academy theater is everybody who's there wants to be there. ⁓ I see. You know, so like Goodfellas, I mean, I don't know ⁓ know if you know this, but ⁓ Joe Pesci's mother is played by Scorsese's mother in the movie. And so when she came out, everybody in the theater clapped because they knew who she was. I mean, these are people who love movies, so it really is. You know an interesting thing worth seeing. In which I did the aerials and the right stuff. ⁓ we gotta talk about the right stuff. The the when I was doing the aerials, my boss was ⁓ shit. Jaeger. General Yeager. You know who he is? Wait, you mean you mean Chuck Chuck Yeager? Yeah. He was my boss. Wha Because you Chuck Yeager, the the astr ⁓ no, he wasn't an astronaut, the the the test pilot. He was never an astronaut. You know, he yeah, there was a whole thing that's what the whole movie but he did the aerials. He he and they s I hooked or Caleb had me go out and had lunch with him first to see what we were gonna do. The actual Chuck Yeager. Yes. One of the coolest people in the history of all time. T shirt and Levi's and everybody was doing this. And I'd actually read his book. Wow. Wow. Yeah, it was he was What was he like? He was great. He was just down to earth I'll tell you a story about th we the studio made a mock up to go under did you see the movie? Yeah, you kidding me? Went underneath it was supposed to be the thing that they released. Yes. ⁓ to drop the plane. ⁓ what was the name of the plane that he broke the sound barrier in? X one or something. X one or something. Yeah. Anyways. So Chuck Yeager was there and they brought this this plane and ⁓ the you know, that they'd build at the studio. Yeah. And Chuck Yeager said, Okay, somebody stand on this wing. And somebody get up on that wing, boom, broke. So, you know, and they were gonna put it underneath the B B twenty nine. Yeah, because he's because by the way, he's a test pilot. That's what test pilots is. He said Jaeger then said, Okay, I want the FAA, I want Warner Brothers, I want this and I want that. And when I you get this act together, give me a call and he walked out of the room. But ⁓ and I what I was getting to on the right stuff. Yeah. He was in the movie. Did you know that? I didn't know that. He played the janitor in in the ⁓ whatever that bar was that they all go to. Well he played the janitor. I can't believe I had no He was back there with a broom. That's so great. Isn't that great? That's in fact I was talking to somebody the other day. ⁓ this guy from Ireland that came out. Yeah. Well he knows everything there is about movies. I said, Do you know that Jaeger was in the He said, Yeah, he was doing the the deal. That's so great. Yeah. So did you just do aerials on the on the right stuff or do you we No, I did the stuff in the cow palace. You were operating. Okay. We had about five cameras in that. Yeah. And then I think I did some other stuff. But yeah, I did I had a a Learjet and I had a F one ⁓ no, I didn't have an F one ⁓ five. I had a B twenty B twenty five. Wow. That I had a Aery set up at the back. ⁓ huh. And ⁓ is the one that the guy went out in that one movie down there and died. So I built this you know, when I go down the tube. Yeah. Which there was no bubble, it was just my camera. Using the tube that like it's almost like a like where the gunner would be and Exactly. But they didn't there was no plastic there. It was just an aeroflex and death. So yeah, but I would hook up to that. And you're sitting behind it. Yeah. ⁓ my god. And then they would I would have communications with the F one ⁓ four and I'd tell the guy to rotate and I'd have I'd be talking to the pilot. Yeah. And I'd had I'd be into a two fifty on him and as fast as I could zoom back that fucking thing would go by. Because it was just that fast. I was that fast. Wow. And I would just, you know, poof. And then I had a shot in there. I hate to keep tell talking No, this I love this. There was a shot in there that they wanted me to do out of a learjet, 'cause the camera was on the top of the learjet. Okay. And we had to get in what he wanted to see, full pipe of the F one ⁓ four, and they wanted him to hit the af after burner. Yeah. And the shot was he wanted to see it turn red. ⁓ you're saying the the ⁓ the exhaust. The exhaust. And the the pilot at the time was this Clay Lacy, this incredible pilot. He said, Y we can do it, but he says, you know, as soon as he hits that afterburner, they're gonna knock us right out of the air. And this is ⁓ this is a a movie pilot or this is like an Air Force pilot? No, this guy was just a private pilot. Like a private pilot. But he was like the best known pilot of the ⁓ so you're saying in other words to to get a close enough shot of it, he would have to physically be so close to your plane that when he hits the afterburner it would it would knock your plane out of the sky or something like that. So I worried about that for weeks of knowing I had to do that shot. Yeah. But we did it. We got it done. ⁓ and it didn't really it wasn't that turbulent. ⁓ okay. Yeah. All right. Now you didn't do that an unbelievable shot where Jaeger's character comes walking out of the out of the fire, did you? No, I wish I did. That is one of the greatest shots of all the you mean when the thing crashes and it and he just parachutes out or something. He comes but then there's that there's that, you know, I don't know, thousand millimeter shot where everything is so compressed and he comes walking off brilliant. But Caleb thought I was this hot operator 'cause I'd met Caleb when he was like nineteen or twenty years old. Caleb Dechanel. Yeah, and he was going then I thought he was gonna do it was like a a ⁓ high school deal or something, 'cause it was called the Black Stallion and he was going over. And I actually helped him. Where was that? It was in Sardinia, I believe. Sardinia, okay. And then when he came back here, I helped him finish up a couple of scenes. That's a beautiful movie. Yeah. Did you ever get to work with your son? All the time. I couldn't keep him. He would as soon as I'd get him, he'd get a better job and he'd be gone. So but he that that's the kind of guy he is. It was okay working w working together though. ⁓ yeah, it's great. That's great. In fact, I had him operating on ⁓ evening shade, I think. ⁓ yeah? ⁓ Bert Reynolds, right? Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, he was on two or three of things, but he was always Charles Derning was an evening shade, right? Charles Derning I probably did six movies with. So you y you know you know Charles Derning's deal with world w what he did in World War II, right? I was working with Jamie Cromwell. Really? And ⁓ Charles Derning I don't remember what show it was, but ⁓ anyway. But Charles Durning was a guest actor and Jamie came over and said, you know, he's the second most decorated, you know. Do you know that you ever seen that scar he's got? On his neck? No. No. Yeah, there's ⁓ ban a guy bayonated. No, he's told that story from what I understand, after Audie Murphy, he's the second most decorated ⁓ He was at the D Day. Evidently. Yeah. I think. It's unbelievable. But he was just a great guy. Just a quiet, super quiet, nice guy, lovely men. I mean and but but but ⁓ you know, cr Jamie ⁓ Cromwell came over and and and said that and he and he told me sort of some stories about what what Derning had done, and it's just like you gotta be careful. His funeral was more of a military funeral than anything else. Of course. And he had some people there that you know that had told a story that had served with him. Right. Yeah, and actually ⁓ I asked ⁓ because I apparently And I always thought this would be great to be in. Apparently there's I don't know if it still happens, ⁓ there's there's one of these ⁓ legendary poker games that happens every once in a while. All these old and Jamie Cromwell and Charles Durning. He told me a couple other people like you gotta be kidding me. And he Yeah, it's great. We don't talk about we don't talk about the business at all. We just play poker and have a good time. That's that's so cool. And ⁓ he was saying though, he said, Yeah, he never talks about any of it or talked now about any of his experiences. It was just It's a different generation, right? Just a yeah, just a great guy. Yeah, I've d I'll bet I've done five movies with it. What other movies did you do with him? I did Stick. He was in Stick. I did I think we ⁓ he was in Whorehouse. ⁓ sure. Okay. Yeah. He's the mayor or the governor or something. Yeah, that's the one of the times that I used the Lumacrine. Yeah. On that when he did his ⁓ that was the shot. Yep. Okay. ⁓ dance a little sidestep. But yeah, I did I could go on and on. He was just great. Yeah. And you know, when we did that He probably weighed three hundred pounds. And the capital had to be a hundred degrees inside there. And he did that dance about at least about ten times. And he's he's an old vaudeville dancer too. So is that right? Yeah. I know y he was a boxer as well from what I heard. I didn't know that, but I but I know he was a boxer. Quite talented guy. She's a d amazing guy. And and then sort of the ⁓ the quietest, most sort of unassuming person. And one of Bert's best friends. What ⁓ this is a shot in the dark, but you never worked with Jerry Lewis, did you? I d I took a class from him. What what class? My and he I in my opinion he didn't know what the hell he was talking about. 'Cause I was just getting started. Okay. And he had this huge ego. Okay. And my wife's best friend was his secretary. Okay. And I heard he was going to do this class at Warner Brothers in a classroom. Yeah. So I said, I'm in. I just wanna hear what he has to say. Yeah, yeah. And about sec and he actually what he would do is he said, I g I want you guys to go see this movie Bring me the tickets, I'll pay you back for it, which was a pretty nice guy. Okay. But I asked him some stuff about depth of field and stuff like that. He had no friends. Wait, sorry. So this class was just about filmmaking in general? Was it at a school or it was at Warner Brothers. Yeah. Yeah. He got a bunch of people in there talking about himself as well. I gotcha. Okay. And I I went to about three or four classes, but once he didn't know he couldn't tell me about depth of field and stuff like that. I said, I you know. Yeah. He might be a great actor and a great comedian, but yeah. Just because you mentioned it earlier, ⁓ I I I just wanna understand it a little better. So you're saying that you would go home at the end of a day and then Warner Brothers would call you up and say tomorrow you're going to stage twelve That was universal. Or universal. Yeah. They would either de or come down to what you were working on and tell you don't to report to stage you know So you'd be on stage twelve doing whatever and then the next day you'd come back to stage twelve and they No, you're not here, you're on stage forty two doing this other. And you'd be with a totally different crew? Absolutely. And and would you even know what it was? Yeah, I think it said so on the there was a sheet that you would go in at night and it had all the cameramen on the At the end of your day. Yeah. Yeah. And it would be all the in the little sign, you know, they'd have your name in there. So would the camera would so would the camera The D P wouldn't necessarily have their own people for a lot of these things. Wow. But yeah, it was it was a whole different system. That's a different world. Yeah. And ⁓ and and so you would have no idea what the story was or anything. No. So you're literally just going, Okay, do I pan here and I pan there? And I actually I think was a second assistant for six months or more and had never loaded a magazine. Because it all went to the ⁓ you you put it in the truck and they bring you back loaded magazine. 'Cause there was a there was a camera, ⁓ what do you call it? A camera room or department. Yeah. Yeah. They take it, unload it and send it in. But I thought, Jesus, what if I get and they always sent a couple of extra thousand footers in case you got to that. I thought, ⁓ I got ⁓ I don't even know what I don't even know what's inside the magazine. You didn't even know how to do it. No. So so John Toll told me about ⁓ he ⁓ he got a job on a T V show that I forget what it was called. Rookies or something. I don't remember what was called. But anyway, he said he was the second AC and he said it was a formative experience for him because he didn't have to load mags, so all he did was he kept some camera reports. That's it. And he ⁓ and he and he hit the sticks. And ⁓ then he would stand by the D P and talk to the D P all day about about lighting and the that's where he kinda like learned a lot of that stuff. It was a it was a different world, there's no question about it. Well any other great actors that you work with? The great old timers? I didn't dislike any of them, you know. I mean Moran Beattie was a jerk, but Everybody knew that, you know. Just but I did a couple of things with him and we kind of became buddies. Obviously. In fact he came on a set one time and left me a little note ⁓ you know, which I forget exactly what the note was about, but a person. ⁓ I know. He came one time and you know, was sitting there and he says, Nick, he s he says, I think we have a mutual friend. I guess gal that he was trying to bed down that was one of my old girlfriends at the moment. Okay. So we kinda g got close after that Yeah. He was ⁓ I like him. That's in fact Buck Henry and I Buck Henry. Jack Warden and somebody else before Warren built his house, he owned that property. Okay. And they had there was a tennis court there. So we were all tennis players, but but Warren wasn't. Yeah. But we go up there and play tennis every weekend practically. Wow. Yeah, Jack Warden was a great guy. Jack Warden was I know the name, but why do I know Jack Warden? What did he do? ⁓ let's see. D Heaven Can Wait? But he w he was ⁓ cinematographer or he was No Jack Warden was a actor. Was an actor. But in being there, he played the president. ⁓ I know who Jack Warren is. That's why I know who Jack Great. Okay. Great. I'm going through my mental role. You ever worked with Kerry Grant? No. No. But I dated Diane Cannon. Who was married to him, you know, and had the kid, yeah. You hated ⁓ dated you worked on a movie with Diane Cannon or Yeah, we I actually dated her. Yeah, no, but I that's how you met on a movie. Yeah, on Heaven Can Wait. ⁓ in Heaven Can Wait. Remember she was the wife or something like that. Yep, yep. Beautiful gal. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think she's like close to ninety now. She's she's gotta be. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw her on she was a Lakers fan. And I saw her on ⁓ Lakers. Jack Nicholson? Yeah. Worked with him? Never. ⁓ one shot. In fact the shot was a handheld shot. I remember the D P it was John Alonso. John Alonso, sure. And I had a handheld deal and there was like four cameras in there. Yeah. But I got to laughing real hard and And I kind of screwed the shot up. But he was a great I I would have wished I could have worked with him. I it's ⁓ Paul Newman was the great one though. But you worked with him as a director, you work with him as an actor? No, I never did. But after we finished that movie, he the rap ⁓ party was at the Sagebrush Cantina. Okay. And we all got there and he said, Okay, you guys enjoy yourself, get drunk, and then come back into this other room. Yeah. And I'll show you what I really like to do for a living. And we went back there, sat down. It was all about Paul Paul Newman racing. ⁓ okay. He was a real good sports car. Yeah, he was a real good driver. So what he was showing you what ⁓ a fish of it or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a whole like a documentary on that. Wow. So and as a director, I'm assuming he was great. He knew exactly what he was doing. In the those days I was making the big bucks and I remember just before this w great scene with ⁓ Melinda Dillon was in it. Mm-hmm. And she goes crazy. You know, she's something happens and she's All over the place and he had like this. Yeah. And I remember he looked over me and he said, Now let's see whether you you you're really worth the big bucks. Because you were so tight. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And And I did it. Okay. But I was scared the crap out of me. And you know, in Exorcist too, yeah. With Richard Burton, I would wear long sleeve shirts 'cause my I'd be, you know, like this waiting for You'd be shaking. Yeah. Yeah. If we didn't get it right, he'd start screaming at us, you know. Wow. Yeah. And and but hopefully that didn't happen that often? Not that often. ⁓ any other good Spielberg stories? I remember I got him ⁓ he never knew how to race motors or ride motorcycles. And I raced for a long time. On Sugarland, we had a little motorcycle. Okay. And that I would go and get magazines and stuff like that. And I taught him how to ride it. And he and he was never off it. ⁓ then. From then on he was on it. And then years later on Friends where I was doing a sitcom or something. And his stepdaughter was in this sitcom. Okay. And he came in and with his wife, I forget what her name is. ⁓ Kate Capshaw back. Kate Capshaw. And he I came over and said, Hi, Stephen, and he he said to Kate, This is the guy that taught me how to ride a motorcycle. He didn't say anything about the camera operator or anything. That's great. That's what he remembers. And so you did Close Encounters in Sugarland. Did you do anything else with him? The Goonies, you ⁓ the Goonies, of course. He was the producer, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Every night Dick Donner, who is my favorite director of all time. Okay. The best of all time. What what aspect makes him the best of the He just knew what he was doing and he was a good guy, he was funny, he was loud, he was He's like the king of the eighties. He was the k he was the king. Yeah. And every night we were first up in Astoria, we'd get a call, Dick would get a call, and I'd get a call from Spielberg, bitching about something. Yeah. A shadow here or ⁓ this there or that there, this didn't By dailies, you mean? Yeah. Yeah. And so ⁓ Dick said I g he said, I got this all figured out. The whole time we were up there he would call and get it. He said, When I get back to town, or when we get back to Warner Brothers, I'm gonna create a second unit, ask Stephen to direct it. And we did we never heard from him again. Because you kept him busy. It kept him busy and he was happier in hell. And I gotta say a lot of the great stuff in that movie he did. ⁓ God, he's ⁓ just a great guy. ⁓ ⁓ well listen, this was absolutely fantastic. Well, I enjoyed it. I love talking about myself. These stories ⁓ these stories are absolute golden. And the the great thing is I think there's a lot in there that that really look, younger operators are going to be entertained by it, there's no question, because I'm I'm just sitting here and listening to it. But I think there's a lot to be had from it. So thank you so much for sharing that. Absolutely. Wow, what an incredible conversation. That was personally just such a treat to sit down with Nick and hear about kind of the golden age when I was growing up really of ⁓ of operating in the film industry. ⁓ so many amazing stories. Please make sure to check out the op website, www.theop dot io, specifically the podcast page for Nick, where you can see a video that I took of him at Panavision explaining ⁓ the information about the camera they sent him. on ⁓ the Spielberg film. If you like the show, please throw us a five star rating and write up a review and share us with your friends because that's always a plus. And ⁓ otherwise we'll be back in a few weeks, so until then, thank you for listening.