We Stopped Coding by Hand Because Agentic AI Is Too Good

0:00Welcome to Sintak! Welcome to a brand new episode of the front-end happy hour podcast. Welcome to this week's JS Party. Live from ship-shaped studios, this is Whiskey Web and whatnot. With your hosts Robbie the Wagner and me. Charles William Carpenter the third. That's right Charles, we drink whiskey and talk about web development. I mean, it's all in the name, it's not that deep. This is Whiskey Web and whatnot. Do not adjust your set. Hey, what's up everybody?

0:39Welcome to Whiskey Web and whatnot with your host Robbie the Wagner and our guest today, Carlo Trey. What's going on Carlo? Buongiorno. Or Buona Sarata. See? That's as far as you're going to get now. Not much. Pizza, pasta, pizza. Yeah, see but you and I say pizza different. You say pizza and I say pizza. Yes, the annunciation is different. The TZ thing. Yeah, it's been a while since we've been on an episode together, but we have a celebratory. We sold a co-working space whiskey to have today.

1:18Yeah. For one easy payment of hundreds of dollars for shipping to Italy. Oh my gosh, it was like, I think it's like an $80 bottle and then it costs three times that to get it to me. So that was not worth it. Yeah. And one of those three, one of those times was, I shit you not. Not only did it cost a bunch to send. When FedEx brought it, I had to pay import taxes. So I had to pay another 70 euros. Yeah. And cash and I was like, are you sure? And he's like, yeah, I'm sure.

1:50I tell everyone, every time I deliver a package, I, you know, you know, and then like a week later FedEx sent me a receipt. So it wasn't bullshit. Okay. I know. I was wondering. I was like, but I guess they couldn't take a check. Because what if the check bounced? And it was like 7640. Exact change. And I'm like, oh, okay. Well, tell us about this whiskey we're having today. Well, it is from a brand we have never spoken of. No, we love Sagamore. It is their 10 year reserve series.

2:21It is 110.8 proof. It's 10 years old. It's aged in new chart of barrels. And it is just right. It is a MGP. And it is a blend of a, they won't say how many, but it is a blend of a few MGP rise of various matchpills. So that's the best I could find about it. Was it, so I guess the resistance is older, because there are some of there like six and seven years are all their own distillate now. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's like the magic with them. And hadn't finished.

2:58This is a four year rye. And they do a 30 month age extra of all those separate ones. But anyway, this is not, this is a MGP select. I feel like I haven't even smelled whiskey in at least a couple weeks. It smells like a tire shop in a good way. Kind of a little citrus on top though. Might get that. I get a little bit of a rubber. Yeah. Rubber from tires. A little citrus. It's weird. Getting a little strawberry fruit by the foot. I'm not familiar with your artificial flavors.

3:30I don't know what that is. Well, in Italy, I'm sure they're just clear and they're made of just strawberries. Yeah. Turns out. All right. I'm going to give up priming. Remember, this is how you get your palate ready. We haven't had a whiskey expert on in a while. So we've been phoning in. Yeah. But you're fucking noobs. That's like syrup. Wow. Yeah. Huh? That is very woody. The extra few years are apparent for you. Possibly not a good thing for it.

4:05But age for 10 years in new charred oak barrels, which is not always the case with a rye, because it's not required. That's why there's a lot of finished rise too. As humans, the same as they're like, I think they're all probably new. I don't know. They don't have to be. Yeah. I'm not sure. And they're making a big deal. This is like eating a two by four. Oh. Huh. Like I don't hate it. But like as much as I love all the other Sagamores, this one is not doing it for me.

4:40Interesting. I'm actually, I think priming, like a light sip to prime my helps because it's not, it's mellow. It actually has a little bit of, what is that? Quantro. You know, the orange licor. Yeah. And it has a little bit of that kind of in the front. So it's like a bit syrupy with a like orangy citrus to it. I wonder if Adam and I have just been doing stuff that's not this high proof to maybe. Yeah. And so it's kind of just hitting my mouth kind of a baby.

5:19It has, I see what you mean, but I'm almost like feeling like it's a little more like fall leaves. You know, if you were like, hmm, crunchy dry leaves, a little more of that and a light bit of nutmeg on the finish for me. Hmm. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. I mean, it's not, it's not bad. It's just like, I don't know, whenever there's a really high standard of like it's my favorite one, I feel like if it doesn't deliver more than that, I'm like pretty critical on it.

5:50So. Well, you know, you know what they would say about the best Whistler? Yeah. It's the one you like. That's right. All right. So we've changed the rating system since you've been gone. It is now zero to 96 headphones or like how many bass strings, you know, maybe you guys did that since you both play instruments and these are four string and eight string and winner. Yeah. No, our scale is the same. Do you recall the scale? No, what it is. Well today, Bob, the scale is zero to eight tentacles, zero being terrible, spit it out, throw it away.

6:34Don't clean your toilet with it for middle of the road and eight being amazing, clear the shelves. Was that okay? All right. That was my commercial. That was good. Yeah. All right. It is for me. Pat and me. Sagamore is still great. This is probably my least favorite Sagamore. It's still good. If you can pick it up for cheap and not spend hundreds of dollars shipping it, you probably should. I'm going to give it five, I think. Hmm. Okay. Yeah. It would be very unfair for me to apply money paid to value given.

7:11So I'll just try to consider it street value at about 80 bucks. I don't know for a 10-year ride that is interesting for 80. I think it's for me, it's actually pretty, per me, non-chimata, but for, yeah, I'll just pull out the few words I know that, and I'll extend it through this entire podcast so you're welcome. I don't know. I kind of enjoy it. You're a ride person, so it's, and I know you like a lot more space, so I don't think this has that. It's not very spicy.

7:44I want to say it's a little above average for me. Like it's tasty. It's a little different, but I don't know, five and a half to six maybe, like that's about where I'm at. I mean, if I see Manhattan finish, I'm buying that all day long. This one, I'm like, it's not, it's worth having, but I don't know if I'd, you know, strongly recommend. Yeah. I mean, they might have purposefully made a difference, so you're not just like, oh, that's the exact same as like the standard offering, but their standard offering is so good for like 35 bucks.

8:18It's like, it's almost a disservice to all their other products because they can't, like it's just so good. Well, for you in particular, you might as well just buy, you know, six bottles of that and be good for the rest of the year, really. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Unless you've up to your drinking the based on the number of children you brought into your house, I mean, it wouldn't, that wouldn't look down upon you. Well, yeah. We've been trying to drink less and like, you get to the end of the day and all the kids are yelling, you're like, where that wine at?

8:48Let's open that wine. Like, I was going to say, like, I could, I was, I haven't even smelled whiskey in at least a couple of weeks. I mean, it's just not as available and so way more wine and a bit of gin, you know, so gin here, make some gin cocktails here and there and then, but wine on the regular, you can get a great bottle of wine between like eight and ten euros here. Yeah. Like, where are we? Yeah. And, and Phoenix, at least, we were definitely in the like 15 to 20 range to get something like this is what we'll have regularly.

9:24That's fine. Some nicer, but whatever. I mean, eight to 10, you're getting great stuff. You can get to land bottles of land. Bruce go for six that are fresh and great. Thanks. So that's, that's the direction of things. Yeah. I mean, I tend to not drink whiskey except for on the show or if I have like some people over because then it's a conversation piece of like, look, I have a lot of whiskey. Let's try something. I can tell you about it. I'm not a whiskey.

9:51Yeah. You know, this thing wraps up here and I have like a garage full of just booze or something boxes and boxes because you can't give it all much. I give them away. So like, I'm doing okay, not having too, too much, but yeah, I got a lot. Every time you go to like your parents' lake house, you're going to take a couple of cases. Yeah. I get my dad like at least four to six every time he comes here or I go there. Yeah. So well, I'm sure he enjoys that.

10:24Are you still driving his car around? I am. Yes. Free car ride. Yeah, it's a good trait. Well, yeah. Yeah. So the only problem is like, I'm too old and out of shape for like, how small and low to the ground it is. And so I'm like, because sometimes like we had a couple flat tires and like a ton of stuff where like, you know, Caitlin's taking the kids somewhere and I need to take them to school or whatever. And so I'm like, wow, this is not super convenient to like put a car seat in the back of this two door convertible.

10:58Yeah. So I was looking at some other cars. We were trying to find something that has a front bench seat so that our dog could sit in the front with us and then the kids can also in the back. That is really hard to find. Unless you want a suburban size vehicle, which I don't love. No. The only option is a defender like the one we had took to, yeah, didn't love that. It's open. Yeah. It's surprisingly smooth riding, but it's kind of for like a Land Rover vehicle.

11:32It's not super luxurious and then yeah, a lot of plastic in there. Yeah. The middle seat though is like the headrest is so high. You couldn't like, you can't use your rear view mirror and you can't like see in the back really and like, that's kind of a deal breaker. So yeah, leave, leave, leave it to the brits to break the whole system. Yeah. Because we thought that would be a good option and I'm like, yeah. So we found one that like we were going to get that's up in New Jersey and then we were like, hey, it's that's too far to go on a like we don't love this car.

12:04Yeah. So yeah, still waiting for the scout, possibly interested in an R2 this year if they come out like they're supposed to. The R3s look really cool too, but those are, I know, small free. Yeah. I need something bigger. Those Chinese, like now that I have access to Chinese vehicles, I've looked at some of those too because there's some really nice like Chinese cars. So what is it called like BYD is the main brand and then there's some offshoots from that and then there's the big electronics company, not Zui, but another one that is like coming out with a crazy luxury SUV where I guess they have it in China already and then they're starting to sell in other places.

12:47They're going to go to Canada. There's like no point in even trying to sell them. No, no. That's always been the point. Like we've kept them out based on tariffs because I mean they can subsidize their industry and make the price points very, you know, nice. But instead you get Ford, you get a Ford Machi, enjoy that. Yeah. I mean, that's my biggest problem too is I'm like, I would love to have something electric, but I don't know if that's feasible.

13:16Like I think probably what I'm looking at now is maybe doing like the cheapest Bronco I can find, like the new Broncos, not a classic Bronco. And then just driving that until the scout comes out in like 20, 30 or whatever. Yeah, whenever that might be. Yeah. So we'll see. Anyway, let's bring it back. We're not into going this. Yeah, we were talking about automotive technology of which we know very little. If only we could get into like auto hacking.

13:44I always found that like very interesting, but I'm like super scared to basically destroy a car. Yeah. Oh, I hack into it and make it better. No, and now it's, you know, a brick. It's a big brick. I used to, I had a tuner for my Mustang and I would, it was Bluetooth, which was scary as fuck because if you're in the middle of like changing stuff and it goes like, I'm not connected, then your car is bricked. Yeah. You still fix it. Luckily, if you can get it to connect back and stuff, but I'm like, oh my god, like, yeah, you take a lot of risk.

14:17Yeah. There's a whole, like, get one that plugs in, guys. The Bluetooth connection is not the move. Yeah. I remember looking into like a car pies, basically a Raspberry Pi set up for your car and it's meant to be like not modern cars. But I was like, there's just too much of a possibility that software fucks up a whole car. Speaking of software, what about web development? So I know next to nothing about this, but I saw the headline, Astro was acquired by Cloudflare, which is cool.

14:53Yeah. It is cool. Big fans of Astro. Yeah. Definitely. I think that's a great thing. I mean, what kind of, I think it was hard to define a business model otherwise. And they're making a great product, so it makes sense there is a, it seems like a natural landing place, maybe more than, like, bun to enthropic to a degree other than I guess. Flare, I think, has similar ideals of like, you know, let's make a multi-page application and like make it fast to go between them using some like special hacks we have.

15:29Yeah, yeah. It's like that. And I'm a list and in it and like using all of this sugar to attach it together. So yeah, it makes a lot of sense there. It's good for them to continue to be supported. It's good, you know, Cloudflare has had their, I don't know, a few issues recently. So it buys some good favor, I think too. I think to a degree is probably a aquahire as well. Like, yeah. I think Cloudflare, it's interesting them and like Verizon when they had their outage recently.

16:02Yeah. I feel like all of those just show people how widespread the company is. Like when Cloudflare goes down and you can't access any of the internet, you would think the stock would go down and they'd be fucked. But what happens is people go, oh my god, they control the whole internet and the stock goes up. Yeah. It's just like US East one going down or having problems and the other half of the internet goes down. You're like, oh, this is all very much in very few places.

16:30Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, don't worry. We're building as many data centers as we can here, so I'm too at least. I mean, that is caught up in lots of bureaucracy for sure when we were staying in Tucson before taking off for Italy, there was a lot of news around to Tucson community, feeling like with a win, really like voted against putting a AWS data center there and because it uses too much water and blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, that's a specific Arizona, yeah, that's a problem.

17:06It is kind of a problem in Arizona, but we can sell all the water to like Saudis and stuff and that's okay. So I don't know, yes, but also selective morality, then they can take up farmland and grow alfalfa sprouts and that's okay, but an actual American business also taking advantage of resources is not like, you know, it's just there's a face on one and there isn't on the other. Yeah. There's been a lot of complaints here. They put in tons of like Ashburn area is just like all data centers and everyone voted for that and it's actually, it's good for them because I think it, I don't know if it reduces their, I think it was like the average of reduced their property taxes by 40% or something was like the deal they got out of it.

17:56But the problem now is they're putting in giant power lines everywhere and just taking people's land to do them because they have to and they're like, you can't put that giant power line in my backyard and like, well, actually, you guys all voted for this thing and yes, we can. So, emanate domain and enjoy. You don't actually own anything so, you know, you don't, you own this property, but just, just kidding, you're going to pay rent on it forever in the form of tax.

18:20So, enjoy that. You own the physical materials the house was built with, you don't own anything else. Yeah. You bought some land, but you're going to pay tax on it forever. Yeah. What an interesting thing the tax system is managed to do and there's no more lands to conquer it. He's escaped tax. So, here we are. Mars. No, I guess Greenland won't be conquered right now, but will it not? Because I don't know. I am. The headline today was he backed down from that and the stocks were all up today because he was like, oh, yeah, I'm not going to do that.

18:52Yeah. By the way, I won't start another war or something. Yeah. I guess that's good. Yeah. I don't know. It's wild. It's going to be interesting being outside of the US and seeing US news just being, you know, just sitting and seeing even stupider than it does here. Or just, you know, it's just reflective of whatever it is, stupid or not, stupid. I don't know. You know? Yeah. No, I mean, I still think the majority of it is actually not as stupid as it looks.

19:28It's just all based on profits and we don't understand the system. But yeah, there's definitely a means to the end. It's not arbitrary by any means. Yeah. I'm sure. I want to talk about this. Everything is a loop. Have you ran a Ralph loop yet? I have not. Yeah. I mean, I'm always like a couple of weeks to a couple of months behind the like whatever's trendy and Adam tells me about all the stuff like the day it comes out. Yeah. Okay. Well, I don't, I'm not haven't tried it, but no, I haven't done that.

20:01I've been having good success with like no customization whatsoever and just telling open code what to do. And it's like, got you, doesn't matter what model you're using or yeah, yeah. Okay. Like when, I mean, I guess you still can't use the the clawed like mask or whatever. Or did they, they played it back? Okay. Yeah. That was an interesting thing. So got rug pulled basically is what I felt also had been using that. And then there was a work around and that worked for about four hours.

20:35And then I was like, well, yeah, I got to see how this all shakes out. So then I like everybody else went to go try, you know, codex and GPT52 and GLM47 and okay, let's load Gemini and just whatever for now. But see, yeah, and it's an interesting thing because like it, it worked just fine and clawed code. I just don't like that interface as much. I'm used to the open code interface and my own customizations and see you go over there and you're like, you know, like at least as far as like using that harness and in the terminal.

21:13So but I don't know, it was a day or so. It was like over a long weekend and I went back and tried it and that was like working again. So I don't know if that's a just, I'm super special or but it has been working. And I've been going back and forth between GPT52 and Opus45 just kind of compare and contrast in case it happens again. Yeah. So what model I've been using then? Well, I've been just paying for open codes in and then using the like, so I've been using Warp2.

21:47So I got like Warp subscription and I've been going back and forth. I still think the best results I get are from Claude, Sonnet45 with open code. That's what I'm typically using. I'll have to try the API key again and see if it works now. We can use it at work now, which is fun because they had an official partnership with GitHub so you can use like co-pilot to power it. So I can do that because we're allowed to use co-pilot and so loophole. I can use.

22:19Yeah. That's funny. Yeah. So I mean, I do have a team plan through work so I don't know if that's a loophole compared to normal max subscribers, but yeah, we have a team premium, I guess is what they call it when you're on team, but it's essentially max and gets some of a bunch of, so I don't know if that is the difference. If it's not working for you, that could be the difference. Well, I haven't tried it since the news hit, I've been spending other stuff since then.

22:49I would like to have open code black, but I guess DAX doesn't like me that much, so I'm still on the way. You know what he likes? He has a child now too, so he likes $200 a month, that's what he likes. I'm not paying for any of this shit, I got to be honest. So there's a big difference there too. I have some budget, so I had open codes in and was putting some money in when I was trying a few other models that way too. It's nicer than like open router and that kind of stuff.

23:17Yeah, but the Ralph loops I have run have been just running clawed to the CLI because when people were talking about all that stuff, I was kind of like, yeah, but I don't know. I don't know which of you were the latest crypto, weirdo, trying to pitch me some weird shit, so I don't quite trust it, but once Matt Polcock started talking about it, it is. Yeah, I get it. It's a four-loop that runs like, you know, especially when Matt Polcock started talking about it, and it was just like, just create a bash script, and it does this.

23:52Well, did it need to be him or was it just his voice that convinced you? Both? Yeah. I mean, he owns the voice, so I, that's what I'm going to say, it's going to be both, but I think he's a good teacher, like a good speaker in that way, and then when he started speaking to this subject, it just kind of clicked with me, and I was like, okay, now this makes sense, and read a couple of articles. You can mess with the, like, Ralph once, so you're just kind of practicing, practicing, and see what happens, and it's interactive mode, and then, okay, here's yellow mode.

24:23And then I tried to, like, write one that was open code working, but there's kind of not a one-to-one mapping, so I just was like, I don't know later. I have seen where a few people have, like, put out stuff to do it with open code, but if you're away from keyboard anyway, who really cares? That's fair. Yeah. So, done it, and it wrote a desktop app in Tori, and it does build and fires up and does a couple of things, but doesn't totally work. There's tons of things that are broken, so I'd say it was like a 50% run, but it was very interesting.

25:00Yeah. I mean, I think it doesn't really matter if you're doing a Ralph Loop or anything. I think, I guess there's more manual prompting, if you're not, to, like, make sure it's doing what you want, but I think you end up with kind of the same result. And like, I've been having, I built a podcast toolkit thing, which I need to share with you, but, like, for doing all the podcast stuff, like, you want some art, just build my whisky everywhere? That's good.

25:29Maybe you want to address that. Yeah. Just to say. So this is what happens when I convince Robbie to have a higher proof whisky. He becomes a sloppy old man, and, you know, the results are, hopefully, it doesn't destroy an electronic equipment, but I get to finally speak openly. He can't control me anymore. Oh, he's back. Oh, yeah. And so Robbie is an excellent co-host, and I'm really, I desk down on accident. Oh, God. Have another Mr. Wagner, I think it's just like, I think there's a hot key, like, just put it down to, yeah, all the way, yeah, excellent.

26:15This episode is brought to you by, I don't know what your desk is, autonomous or, oh, you used to have the beef low. Yours was the one that worked. Yeah. This episode, yeah, this episode is not brought to you by beef low because they sent me a broken product twice. It was very nice. They have aesthetically pleasing, yeah, it was aesthetically pleasing. I mean, I basically got sent to return, and that was like most of the problem. I guess it's not like totally their fault.

26:42They tried, swinging a mess, but they tried. Also, it was giant, so I couldn't take it overseas. It's like a nice desk, though, in that sense. I can't even, I can't even really tell the name of the one that I bought here. It's very much like the autonomous one, but called something else in that in Germany. I don't know, it works. They had a lot of different sizes. They have European sizes because many rooms are smaller here, so. Okay. All right. Of course, some more whiskey.

27:11Yeah. Do that. So everything's a loop, but I think, so here's the thing, is whether it's one prompt at a time, whether it is customized skills to help your context window be more efficient. The loop, the intention is that the loop is fresh context every time, and then it can just read a progress doc and your PRD and say, okay, these four are done. The progress doc said you did these things, and I have fresh context. And so, because polluted context is where things get bad.

27:46Your sessions run too long, things get bad. So I'd like to have no context, and it doesn't notice building. Yeah. And then it starts at zero. So, well, it has reference points, right? It has your PRD, it has your code base, it has whatever sort of agent set up you have, whatever skills you have, like, I don't know, I think there's ways to sort of load it up. The whole point of the conversation is, but first of all, is that, you know, I think loops are interesting, I'm going to continue to explore them, and or other new things like that.

28:19It's imperfect, but it's interesting, and that our jobs are changing in this way. I think our jobs are changing this way. When we talk about DX and developer tools, as we have, this is actually gone from crypto, which was a technology that has been used in a way that makes people distrusted, and you know, it's a, I don't know, a financial vehicle in a different way, or blockchain. I guess I should say blockchain, not crypto. So blockchain is a technology crypto had sort of one intention and was applied in many other ways.

28:57This had that possibility, and I think you still have people talking about it in a way they don't really know, and they're marketing it weird and trying to make money. But I do think it's a tool for web development where we have become, we've all been elevated to kind of like tech leads, and it's important to understand how the pieces fit together, and it's, we've enforced into like a product engineer role because planning is a huge part of success.

29:29And it's funny for me to say this because I was a self-taught person and took that path, but I think this, this kind of stuff is going to close the entry. I think it's still very worth getting a CS degree or getting CS learning because I think engineering understanding is pretty key. I don't know if universities still, you know, have everything there though because they don't really give you real world experience, so I don't know how we fill that void, but trying to be like a hobbyist turned professional will be very challenging in the future.

30:05I think try to get in that way. I think the only real programming is going to be building the AI tools and the new models and stuff, so like algorithms still very applicable, like definitely learn data structures and algorithms and stuff like that, but yeah, you know, taking a class on HTML and CSS or something, no way, do you ever need to do that again? Unless you want to build your own library in order for, you know, for the tool to use, I guess, like there's a nuance that you could do.

30:35There's some hobbyist aspects of that. I think systems design is actually highly important. I think like scaling exercises, things of that nature, like, yeah, those are all pretty important. It's going to be hard, like, there's no bootcamp that gives you that, you know, so, you know. Adam and I were talking about the general, like, you know, software engineer path, right? And it's like, oh, yeah, so like, it's kind of fucked everybody. Like, juniors can never progress or learn because like, you have to be super disciplined to like go learn it instead of just ask AI to like do it for you.

31:14Seniors aren't going to mentor you because they don't need you to build the stuff. They can just ask the agent to do it for you and tell it what to do. And like the whole thing, like nobody's going to code by hand at all, which kind of changes the whole game. And then when you hit that point, I was like, yo, so why do you need any technical knowledge? Like there's going to be a set of people who are really good at prompting for whatever reason, just innate ability and like, they're going to just kill it.

31:41Like they won't be able to tell you what a front end framework is, but they can build you a whole website. And like, at that point, do you care if that person knows anything about the technologies that end up building the website or if it works, are you cool with it? Well, okay, yes and no, I agree and I disagree completely at the same time. I don't think that like a prompt bro is going to like be a successful professional. Like good at it. Doesn't mean they can't get an outcome, but like really good at it.

32:14I just think that like the game pieces are changing or even just the board itself. You're like, wipe the board and you're like, well, these aren't the pieces I need anymore because it's kind of a different game. So I think understanding, understanding like CS principles, I think understanding systems design, I think understanding, you know, how to like take business objectives and user feedback and things like that and translate that into like technical requirements will probably still be a thing.

32:53So you'll need to kind of know, but you really don't give a shit whether it's written in, you know, going or Python, you'll just be like, I need users to be able to access the site and it loads in milliseconds. And then when it goes here, this and this are the important parts for them to get first and you'll want to, you know, progressively enhance in these ways or whatever, you know, who knows whatever the terminology of you along, along the way, but you won't care.

33:21I've actually been talking about this a whole bunch is sort of like the craft of code might be dying in front of our faces because it was always about like pleasing the human, you're right? It's like you have the craft and I can, you know, you document appropriately and you're using the most efficient array method for what you're trying to do here and you're not nesting tyrannaries because gross and it's hard for me to understand, but it doesn't mean it doesn't fucking work.

33:54And also the abstractions that we've added on top of things that end up getting like obfuscated in production anyway and so it's sort of like, oh, I'm doing, I'm putting this extra work to make the humans happy, but the machines interpreted it and they get a different input and interpreted in a different way. So it actually kind of doesn't matter so much and what does matter. So that's, I think those are the things that are very obviously going to change.

34:22I mean, perhaps like a junior today is maybe a apprentice in three years and there's someone who knows how to orchestrate this environment and they come in to learn how to also orchestrate a similar environment and force multiply in that way. But yeah, like pretty code goes away. People recognizing a framework probably goes away like, you know, I wonder if JavaScript in general or handwriting JavaScript and TypeScript goes away because it's so like, you know, the Wild West, same with PHP, like you have to enforce your own guidelines for it to like have any sort of structure.

35:09And like, so something I've been working on with Swatch, I built like a new, well, I didn't build it like open code built it. But like, the color picker thing, I don't know if I talked to you about this or just Adam. I tell you about it. You didn't, you mentioned it in a brief side note as I was like trying to change the API stuff. Okay. Yeah. So the color picker used to be, there's an eyedropper built into Chrome and it's an electron app. So we'll always have Chrome.

35:38So I was like, cool, let's use it. And it's pretty bare bones. The Chrome one has like just one big circle with like one dot in the middle. And it's, you pick that color. And it does not work on Linux. It will not work on Linux. They refuse to do anything with Linux. And I know why now because holy shit is it like so difficult to get it to work because like there's so many different things you can have like different, I can't even remember the terminology.

36:05Now, window manager is not the thing compositor is that I don't know. There's so many different things. There's a way. You can make that word. There's a, there's X 11, there's like all these different things that like render shit and tell you what you can do with permissions with the screen and what can record the screen and what it can do and stuff. And that's why Chrome just said, fuck it, we're not going to implement that for Linux. So I decided to do it anyway.

36:32And it's, it's not as full featured for Linux because it just like takes a screenshot and then like does it over top of that. And so you can't like get a color from your dock or like things that are slightly outside of the window. Oh, I see. Stuff like that. But anyway, I was like, yo, open code, make me this thing. Do it in Rust because Rust is cool. Yeah, Rust is cool. Yeah. Like, and so it built me a totally separate implementation for Mac, Windows and Linux.

37:00I like figured out how to compile it all and put it all into it. Like then the front end of it is an electron window that's just a little circle with like a grid of colors. And it works pretty okay. So for swatches, super slow now though. It is. Yes. So we'll get into that in a minute. But so I learned yesterday when I was trying to get this all to work because I was trying to fix a couple little edge cases and stuff like I took all of that code and took it out of swatch and I released a package called Hugh Hunter that is just for that.

37:34And so it's kind of annoying because it has like these assets. You have to manually go in your electron build and say like extra resources and pass at this stuff. And like, I want it to be just you install it and then you just like import and use it. Like, I don't want the extra steps. So I learned that there's a thing you can use called let's see, nappy RS, I guess. NAPI RS. And it is a thing for rust where you can turn all of your rust stuff into native node add-ons.

38:07So it basically compiles it to like C++ or whatever and then compiles that to like, you know, whatever node ships like because you know that they'll have like the node chip thing that like builds stuff. So it's basically doing that which once you get into that workflow, node and electron and stuff can kind of auto find all the stuff and like, do it with no extra like steps in your app. So like, that's the next path to go down. Anyway, this is a long-winded answer of like, I think you can tell whatever agent, build me a thing, do it in rust, use this thing to compile it to node.

38:44And then it gets all of that type checking that's super strict. It can't do anything wrong theoretically. Like it can do things inefficiently or whatever, but it's never going to error. So I mean, because that's how rust operates. And then like, put it all in node, release that as node modules that you then install in your app. You don't need to write any JavaScript code. You can make it super safe with rust, release it all that way. Like that's a very interesting thing.

39:15This is, and I think this is kind of the beauty of AI is I can't imagine that is a release path that you ever would have kind of come to on your own. No, no one would do that without AI, but you get to do a lot of stuff you would have never done. Yeah. And you don't have to fully understand, you know, the language to kind of get there like you get the gist, you know, you know, okay, there are syntax nuances and I don't have to work through that, but I can kind of, you know, the next thing I want to do, I want to add one of those like voice command apps that a lot of people are using in order to just speak through their brainstorms.

39:57I think there's like whisper and there's a couple other open source ones. I'm very intrigued by that because hands free development, hands free engineering. That's what I was doing that the other day. We were coding some stuff, pairing on some stuff for star pod and whatnot, and Borp has a little button. You just click a microphone and talk to it. You have some more voice. I like work. That was good. Dude, it just didn't, it wasn't sticky for me.

40:28It just hasn't, it's never been sticky. Yeah. I was telling Adam that like, it's one of, it's like a vibes thing because like, it's essentially the same as using open code, but it doesn't quite always give me the same quality of result. So it's like, you're like, what? Like they're kind of interchangeable, but yeah, I'm like, I'm like you, like there's, I can't really say exactly why, but like I like using open code and that's like, here has been my recent jam.

40:58So I've got a few different things. So I do, I use work trees and I'll run, like if I'm running multi agents in the same repo, then I use work trees and I'm in ghosty and I'll kind of do that. And then if I don't like, if I'm in a repo where I'm just going to run one thing, I'll open Z and then in the terminal within Z, I run open code and then I, they have a standalone app now. Yeah. The desktop app. Yeah. I don't know. I downloaded it and then I just don't use it because my stuff, you know, I got to get mad or whatever frustrated or thrown out for whenever reason to go that, that route.

41:39Yeah. No, I opened it up and I was like, this is totally different than just like typing in open code and using it. So like, why would I use this? I don't know. I feel like we're picking sides a little bit. It's like, Adam's doing the desktop app and Dex is doing the 2E and whatever and, and we all know Dex only code's perfection. So that's it. Yeah. He's and eats meat. He's sweet. He's hungry code and eats. That's true. I can respect a man who is eating a steak like twice a day for months and I'm like, I don't know.

42:12I mean, I know you've got to follow up with his blood work because he was like, yeah, I've been eating two steaks a day for, I don't know, it was like six months or something. He was like, wow. I'm going to go get my blood work done and make sure I'm not dying. Right. I'd be curious to see. You're still quite thin, sir. Adam is a vegan and he's jacked. So that's it. Funny. Well, he buys peanut butter by the like five gallon bucket. So exactly. Yeah.

42:37So it's a boring, it's a boring lifestyle for sure. He can't live here. He can live here as a vegan and enjoy your life in any way. Everything around you is amazing and you're like, nah, it's not for me. Well, there's a fucking egg in that. I can't have that. Yeah. I guess possible too if you had eggs in the pasta. Yeah. They're not all, but there's definitely many delicious pastas that have eggs and, but also like there's cheese all over the place.

43:03The cheese is great. No cheese is tough. Yeah. I can't be overdue. I could do vegetarianism. Yeah. In fact, we do some meatless days. So you do. All right. Yeah. Is vegetarian. So yeah. Yeah. Do you want some meat? You cook it. I'm good with whatever you're cooking. Mm-hmm. It's true. You know, throw some beans and stuff in there and you're like, I'm good too. Yeah, whatever. Yeah. Yeah, I can have cheese still. All right. I'm on board. Yeah. And whenever we go out, it's like they're going to cook the meat better than I would anyway.

43:39So I just get meat when we're out. You added the claw and co-work thing. Yeah. I'm going to talk about that a little bit because let me wrap up the swatch talk just because we're done talking about swash, but yeah, it's a wrap up mother. I don't know why it's slow. So when you run it locally, which is all I ever do, like running it from dev mode works perfect. So Adam was showing me like, look, I downloaded swatch and I was like, God, that is slow as fuck.

44:08What do you like? Is your computer broken? And I was like, wait, like so I tried running it, you know, the app you can download and it is so slow. And I was like, I don't know why because I also I've packaged it. So I was like, all right, maybe it's like just a dev versus prod thing. So I packaged it as a production app without like fully releasing it, like, you know, not doing the signing and stuff, like whatever, but it's still a production loading or whatever.

44:35Yeah. And it worked. It was pretty okay. It maybe wasn't as good as dev mode, but it was like not as slow as the released one. And so I don't understand what is happening. Like, I don't know if it's a V-thing or what, but like. It's hard to say, maybe it's time to move off of electron. Well, I mean, I just spent forever getting it to work, but you, I mean, you might not be wrong. Uh, Tories and Rust, if you like that. Well, then I don't even need to compile my stuff to, uh, to note.

45:07I can just use it probably, right? Like, I would think maybe, yeah, like basically the base of it is rust. And then it does the electron stuff, but rust. And it's like smaller. Their whole thing is like it's smaller packaging and so this and memory and, bro, it's a desktop app. Make it 10 gigabytes. I don't care. You download it one time. Yeah. Like, um, I don't want your stupid 10 gig fucking color app. Are you kidding me? No, it's, I think it's like 500 megabytes or something and like 400 of that is chrome or whatever.

45:44Like, but yeah. Um, so I don't know why it's slow. If anyone has any thoughts on that, let me know because, yeah, how is that going to work for a, uh, old 3G phone in Africa, where you can't use it on a phone. So, yeah. Well, I guess there's that I think phone is the path to success though. Remember, we like saw someone who had like a color app and they were like, just put point like as if you're taking a picture and then it takes the swatches from there.

46:14Yeah. No, it's not. It's not meant to be super successful. It's just for me to, yeah, experiment with this path. It's my sandbox. Your life is like that. You're like, you're like, I want to figure out this problem. I'm going to do an open source thing. Wait, I have a life now. I can't maintain it. Yeah. It's, it's tough. Oh my God. I finally got release plans set up on angular shepherd because every, you know, a few months, whenever a new angular, you're still doing angular shepherd though.

46:43I thought we agreed that we're no longer doing wrappers. Like millions of people download it. So I'm like, whether there's millions of dollars, not in your pocket. So like again, what do we need to do wrappers for? Wrappers has, well, if it has enough people using it and those people will become paying users. Okay. That's true. Yeah. Okay. So I don't know. I'm not spending time on it anymore because release plan has set up. I'm like, they're like, oh my God, it doesn't support the new angular version.

47:11I'm like, well, I make it support it and I'll merge your PR like I'm not doing the work. They had to do the releases and I was like, fuck. So I have to like pull it down and like build it and push it up and stuff. I don't want to see you got that. Got you. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Cloud co work. Yeah. Cloud go work. Have not used it. No, because it's not available to you yet, actually, no, they announced it and it's not GA yet. And it's part of my super special teams subscription.

47:46They sent me an email actually this morning saying that we're getting it tomorrow. So I was like, cool, because there's a couple of open source things. So there's like, Claude bot, which was, yeah, cloud. And then there was another like open work or I don't know. There was like another kind of anyway, some other people are trying to do these like desktop apps that connect to your file system and do things. I'm like, I think that's very interesting, but I can't trust a rando to have access to my entire file system of my computer.

48:25So I haven't pulled the trigger on any of them. I'm very interested, but like, Claude bot, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know, bro. What are you going to do with my shit? So I will start tomorrow. Yeah. Let me know how that is. I think I'm very curious about the like non coding applications of AI in general. Like there are pretty easy problems in my opinion that could be solved. Like the problem I now have is we have a thousand kids. So like I want to book a dinner reservation and like someone else is coming with this.

49:04We suddenly have eight to ten people and I'm like, Hey, open table goes, Oh, yeah, more than six. Like, Oh, can't do it. Like I want an AI thing that just calls them and goes, Hey, fuckers, I got eight people be there in a little bit. That would be amazing. I don't know. I don't let you just book it in the normal app anyway, but well, the restaurant probably sets some like boundaries there. And so there's a way around it. I do think that there's efficiencies all over the place in life.

49:31I think like some of the improvements that I've been able to make at work and like, I mean, a slow day is four to six PRs for me. And I've had days where I'm like 10 plus PRs. Like this, like said, it's so fast, yeah. Yeah. They're just 10x and it's, and I think that the quality is decent and all of that. And so I work for a small company. We've been talking across the company, how, what can we do and we'll try this? And we're going to try this and how do we like create things and more efficiencies?

50:13One, like one of the very interesting things in R&D recently that I've been doing through these like cloud loops and creating PRDs and talking about like over here, we experimented with this. What are the feature differences between this code base and this code base and it'll come out with a gap analysis. And let me turn this gap analysis now into a feature list and connecting the, click up MCP. All right. So go look at all the tickets, all the tasks we have created.

50:47The ones that exist to the, these, this feature set. And then that makes, click up usable because click up was so intimidating with it. It's so crazy. It's like, yeah, and they keep adding stuff there. And so it's like another notion to me in a lot of ways. It's like, I thought it was cool and now it's like too much. But now being able to connect my AI agents to it and I say, okay, what are the features that are not captured over there? Great. And create it.

51:16Just the top task, here's the sub tasks, looks exactly like the PRD that I'm going to run in a Ralph loop, perfect. And then I've been, where I failed is like in a Ralph loop where you are, you're dangerously set, you know, permissions or something to it. And that's not awesome either. So you can do that in a Docker sandbox, but in a Docker sandbox, it doesn't have SSH, it doesn't have your MCP connection, it doesn't have as much. Yeah. Because I would love for it to like isolate things, so you have a sandbox, you don't need a work tree, but like you should create a branch, you should connect your progress to this click up thing.

51:58I'm not quite there yet through our full process, but it's really interesting the way that you can like move faster through these normal pseudo agile practices. I think we kind of killed that job in a lot of ways. Did you see what animals I'm not with Vibe Conbon? I saw he posted a link and no. So it's basically you can, I'm unclear on the details. I think you have to create the Conbon board, like the tickets, and then you're like, yo, just execute this project.

52:31And it's like, what if like GitHub actually or not, GitHub projects or whatever was just that? Well, you could just be like, build, you know, you just spec it out and then you go, you know what? Done. Just implement it. So that's how it goes apparently with his Ralph Loops. So he'll like have them connect to like GitHub issues and just do the issue, do the like just loop through issues like, I'm kind of thinking about trying to figure out how to do that on Shepherd.

52:58Does that not get expensive? I don't know what kind of he used to, he works for a sell or did work for a sell. So I don't know. Probably not. Yeah. So he's not doing his own just like courses. He has a job job now, but I thought he did work for a sell, so I don't know. I don't know. I haven't talked to him since we talked to him on the show, so I don't know. I don't know. I've been drinking brown, and I haven't had it live recently. So yeah, I haven't thrown the rest of the one on the floor.

53:29Interestingly, it like, I've been throwing in, I have this liver and see how I have this black like desk mat. And it spilled on that and everywhere the whiskey touched like all the color is gone from the desk mat, which is interesting. What's that doing to my insides right now? Making them lost forever. Do you see that experiment? Someone did where they had like a petri dish of like bacteria and they put one drop of whiskey on it. It just all died instantly.

53:58I have like, Taylor, Point Dexter, like, reposted it. It was like, this is why I drink whiskey. Well, she seems quite healthy, so yeah, you know, food for thought there. Stop eating, well, never mind, I'm just going to say stop eating beef or rowdy, but I don't know. Shaz doesn't do that. Did buy some, they have where's Waldo's baguetteos now, got some of those for fanings. He's very into where's Waldo, so you fed him cancer. He doesn't like any foods, like we're just now getting him to eat dino nuggies.

54:36So like, I'm like, just eat kid foods that are unhealthy, like I don't, as long as it's not right. Yeah, I don't care. As long as you're just like eating, just fucking eat at this point. Let's go to McDonald's again. I don't know. Shit. Yeah. We'll even do that. Although he is interested now that I told him that happy meals have toys. He was like, tell me more about the toys. For sure. It's like you get the toy once you finish the four nuggies. Yeah.

55:00Oh, that's a good point. Yeah, take the toy away until they're done. Oh, for sure. Yeah, they don't touch that shit until they finish the primary, you know, nutrient source or whatever. Yeah, at least our McDonald's is a little healthier, but we still do McDonald's sometimes. It's amazing, but I have to use real ingredients at least. It tastes better. I'm not going to lie. It is better. There's a couple of weird things. It's better. So I started watching, let me see, I'm going to get it wrong.

55:2611, 22, 63. Oh, yeah. I see that. I don't know what that means. I don't even know what that means. So it's a, apparently, a Stephen King book that was turned into a Netflix show, but it's about like time traveling, like this guy's supposed to time travel back to prevent JFK's assassination. Hmm. But anyway, the point I was going to bring up is like, they're like, when you go back in time, like one of the things you're really going to notice is the food is so good.

55:57It's like, yeah, because this is before we had like all this fake bullshit. Yeah. Right. And the stuff your grandma made doesn't exist anymore because the flower is different. And you have an Italian flower now that's like from the only double zero, like, like like not, hasn't been altered wheat. And so they're like, the bag is like this size, like normal flowers like this size. And it's like this size. And it's like $8 and normal flower is four and I'm like 79 cents here, like the basic Farina, because it's, it's not shipped anymore zero.

56:37Yeah. It's just here. So yeah, it's, I was like, you know what, I'd love to do that because then it's, you know, all not modified stuff and theoretically healthier because like, you know, you can go to Italy. You need as much pasta as you want to not gain weight. So it's definitely a thing. It's not just the walk. You got the money for that. No. Anybody got time for that? Listen, if you just half the size of your house, then maybe you have the money for that, you know?

57:06Well, I mean, you have two offices in a wine cellar, like, you can't, yeah, I'm just, like, if you're going to be middle class in, in Trump's America, then you need two offices at a wine cellar, you have a gym too. So don't fucking, you know, undersell yourself. Yeah. No, I mean, you never need to leave the house, which is actually kind of my dream. Like if I move back, I'm moving to Virginia next to you and I will have all of those things because I don't want to leave the fucking house like I'm cares.

57:38Yeah. There's a house down the street that will still be for sale if you move back. They're trying to sell it for like, I don't know, $3.8 million or something. No, probably like $6 million, but like super devalued by the time, you know, I wouldn't move back. No, the most expensive house in the neighborhood, I think, is like $1.9 and it's like, there's just like $3.8 or something and I'm like, guys, this is not going to be good luck with that. And the market, are you looking at, are you, you remember, you remember what it was like four years ago and you're trying to keep it, you know, it's just not happening.

58:19Enjoy. I think the market's going to just tank at some point, but I think it probably will. And then we'll have a slower and up to normal. Yeah. Hopefully we can count our school district because that's the only thing keeping property values up. Oh, so I don't know. Yeah. That's interesting. I'm really glad that I'm mostly out of the property game except for the one that I hate the most. So that's fun. Yeah. How's that going? Terrible from bad to worse.

58:49I mean, just constantly, so we have a property in Tucson to remind those who may not have seen previous episodes of a property in Tucson. I learned a lot of lives there. We check out the episode where Chuck was working with the water heater. It's a good one. Oh, yeah. We're explodes and burned into my body. That's amazing. That's super fun. Yeah. So that's my time there, like constantly. I mean, I don't know. Have I talked, have I spoken on here about how because of my in laws, there's a lean on the property?

59:27Have I ever talked about that? The IRS has a lean on it. I don't know if you talked about it on the show. You definitely mentioned it to me. I mean, okay. So I don't care, like, full transparency. My former surgeon, father-in-law, is not anymore and many other things occurred because of that. And one of those is my, okay, I was advised to put my mother-in-law on the property to help get a better rate. And then, so she was like on the property loan, I mean, I guess they told me it did.

1:00:03They were like, you know, it's still 65 because it was an investment property at the time. Now it is a primary residence because I don't live anywhere else in America, but I can't refinance it because the IRS has a lean on it due to unpaid back taxes because a surgeon didn't pay his taxes, symbols that. We're working through that problem. And so anyway, so there's that. And then we were like Airbnb because it was sold as a great Airbnb and kind of wasn't.

1:00:39And then we had like some tenants and then other tenants and then more tenants and then no tenants. I also hate Airbnb's. So it's sort of like the larger one who's been an Airbnb for a while and that's been okay. And then we had like my mother-in-law and other tenant and the smaller one and he's moving out now. So cool. Hate it all. Yeah. There's nothing that will tell you like how shitty humans can be more than being some sort of landlord or having to deal with any kind of tenants because they are just like you're just like bro, like this is common sense.

1:01:22Like why are you being this big of an asshole about XYZ and they're like oh, this is like I hate that you exist. This is the worst. What I'm getting is like hey I'm going to move in two weeks and like well you know you have two more months on your lease. So you're going to pay. It'd be real cool if you just let me out now and I'm going to be like it'd be real cool if you just gave me money right now. Yeah. You can leave but just pay for two months right now.

1:01:50Yeah. You can do whatever you want but your financial obligation is this. Yeah. Well, we have learned from having a company and owning a building that like it doesn't matter what the paper says. If it's less than like 20 grand that you owe, I ain't nobody paying that like no, I don't know if this guy knows that but like you know if you know that the system is stacked to where like no one's going to pay for lawyers to figure that out then you just leave kind of like when Comcast goes hey you owe us a shitload of money you go no I don't and they're like yeah you do and I'm like okay come at me.

1:02:26Good luck. I'm going to dissolve that fake company I have anyway enjoy yeah I keep getting automated calls. It's like this is the Comcast building department looking for your accounts payable or whatever and I'm like yeah I don't know what company you're looking for never had a ship shape. Holdings or what were you looking for? This is not ship shape mode is probably yeah ship shape mode is I call them go ahead. That's a like shell company I've ever seen one all right yeah anyway are our overtime here does anything else on here that we need to talk about need really need is you know I mean I want to talk about video games I want to talk where it came to what's the steam machine going to do and how is it going to affect gaming as a whole I'm very excited news seems yeah you don't know the steam machine no fuck they're putting out their own like yeah I get that and I have like out and you know raw stuff and I have the raw galley it versus the steam that they already had a are thought they already had something like that they know the console slash gaming PC what will be really interesting is like

1:03:46the price point so like people said 600 bucks a thousand dollars whatever else I don't know I think this is like great for gaming though at least for so why not just buy an Xbox though if it's a thousand because it's better quality because it's a closed platform to close platform what do you have to play most games on windows anyway so like well this steam OS the steam OS which yeah the steam deck is Linux based and steam OS probably has to be and so much stuff goes through steam I don't know but I feel like it's a kind of emulator or something because most games are just made for windows yeah well I think this is a win they're just running they sell you a thousand dollar computer that runs wine and it boots up the windows maybe that was like what we used to do that but yeah I remember that I don't know but it looks very intriguing and so PlayStation as acquiesced and those Spider-Man games came out on steam which I got from my son and he was like oh my goodness amazing I'm like yeah this is this feels like the next stage like most the games you want to play are probably going to be steam released

1:05:10but you can also like on team decks in that I ain't never buying another hardware product like I'm just going to stream the games like he streams everything he has a MacBook that he like does his development on but he streams a Linux machine to his like right you think that's going to work for gaming yeah yeah that's he used to I want to see I mean it didn't work super well the few times I've tried it but I feel like it has to be like it'll get good enough at some point like if you have five gaming is the outlier because it's resource intensive and I guess like if you have any sort of hiccup like you're playing against someone like it's competitive and you have any sort of internet hiccup it will just not work it's so annoying that like my alley when I was playing handheld I was playing FIFA and it was like okay but the frame rates had to be kind of low and then anything online was like fucking garbage so I bought an external GPU just to do that and then I was like well if I want to play any modern games I'm like 10 years behind so it's not hard to please me I got some I do like that all these marketplaces have these games for like four bucks here and

1:06:24there I bought a bunch of Batman games all that stuff and they work pretty recently because I'm 10 years behind play any modern game like FC 26 and like okay I need the GPU okay yeah gotcha so yeah I have the Xbox Game Pass so you just like pay for that every month and get like all the games basically yeah and I think that works okay but kids don't need to go to college it's fine it's overrated well college isn't gonna be a thing by the time they go so I don't think so either I think five 10 years I think it's I would love to see I mean I think this is the best case scenario of everything just going back to local apprenticeships like you're gonna learn how to be a beef farmer you're gonna do it from a farmer you're gonna learn how to like fix I mean won't be cars because cars will all be electric there won't be a like internal combustion motor that you need to figure out how to fix um I don't know whatever the thing is I think it's gonna be like local little jobs like that or just a ton of people farming through agentic AI like trying to get everything to just sling out whatever and I don't know I don't love it but we'll hope for

1:07:35the best yeah you ain't got to love it but it is what it is yeah all right we're at time so thanks everyone for listening if you liked it subscribe do it subscribe right now and leave review link click yeah click leave a review that says I hated it one star we'll love that say this would be great but Robbie that's so much no jamaale no jamaale all right peace you've been watching whiskey web and whatnot recorded in front of a live studio audience what the fuck are you talking about Chuck enjoyed the show subscribe you know people don't pay attention to these right head to whiskey.fun for merchant to join our discord server and serious like two percent of people who actually click these links and don't forget to leave us a five star review and tell your friends about the show all right dude I'm out of here still got it