We Accidentally Deleted Programming (Presented by CodeRabbit)

0:02Welcome to Syntax! Welcome to a brand new episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast. Welcome to this week's JS Party. Live from ShipShape Studios, this is Whiskey Web and Whatnot, with your hosts, Robbie the Wagner and me, Charles William Carpenter III. That's right, Charles. We drink whiskey and talk about web development. I mean, it's all in the name. It's not that deep. This is WhiskeyWeb and Whatnot. Do not adjust your set. As more and more code is generated, developers end up spending more time reading and reviewing code.

0:40This creates an issue on reliably shipping quality code. So even though AI is promising, a lack of proper guardrails can slow down teams. CodeRabbit is an AI code reviewer, unlike AI code generators like Cursor, WinSurf, or GitHub Copilot. It reasons and submits feedback on your code base while you raise a pull request to merge code into your VCS. CodeRabbit is a self-improving agent, and it learns from your interactions and creates learnings. CodeRabbit generates one-click commit suggestions for some review comments, making it easy for developers to address review comments.

1:10CodeRabbit is used by 100,000 open-source projects like Vue, Next.js, and it's installed on 2 million repositories so far. It's also performed more than 15 million PR reviews. Hey, what's up, everybody? Welcome to Whiskey Web and Whatnot with your hosts Robbie the Wagner and Adam Thomas Argyle the Nerd. What's up y'all? I'm feeling good. How are you? I am good as well. It is once again Margarita Thursday, which I just call it this to make my wife upset because it is clearly either Thirsty Thursday or Margarita Monday, but I like to do the dumb one that doesn't make any sense.

1:48nice we do uh woody wednesdays we go to little woodies and then we used to do like faridays now that was really stretchy you know now i just love it pizza and pokemon that one always stayed good it's on a friday but yeah friday doesn't start with p it's okay yeah yeah these things are hard all right so i'm excited for the whiskey we have today this is a special edition where's my camera whistle pig Liquid Death collaboration. I'm a big Liquid Death fan.

2:18I really like their Dr. Pepper flavor. I forget what they call it. Dr. Death maybe. I should try that. I love Dr. Pepper. Yeah. So this is a wheat whiskey. It is 85% wheat and 15% barley. They use Liquid Death Mountain Water to proof it down, which like hopefully they got a discount on it because Liquid Death is not cheap. They're like popping all the cans and pouring them in there. Yeah, it's 86 proof. I don't know what the age is, but like you get the idea.

2:47Liquid Death Collaboration looks cool. Smells sweet. Smells fruity. Yummy. Okay. Yeah, I can never tell. Like sometimes there's a little funk and I can't tell if like my glass is dirty or it's got baby stuff in there. Yeah. Shouldn't have mixed Similac in my nice Nolan glass. Why did I do that? yeah i do i feel like i smell strawberry strawberry cinnamon perhaps i'm gonna taste it oh man i'm getting like a berry medley it's nice really light spice smooth and soft that is yummy a coating of my tongue from the front to the back so i got like the spice and then just the the saturation as it spreads across yeah this is very good i guess maybe some of the similar notes that i like from rise maybe come through in this because it's all like uh grains and i guess is corn a grain no i guess it is not yeah so like it doesn't have corn i don't know which i feel like makes it uh tastier like taking the corn out i'm glad there's still some spice i was like a little spicy bite and then uh it's pretty low on the proof do you do you pay for proof like do you are you like oh i'm if i'm gonna spend money it better be high proof do you do you care about

4:10that is that no no i just care about yeah yeah i care about interesting things and it being like if the distiller wants me to try it at 135 proof or whatever like okay like i'm down but i'm not seeking that out i usually like it to be a little higher than like uh 80 proof or whatever like whatever the standard is so this is a little bit higher i think right it was yeah 86 so it's got a little more burn um but yeah i think it's very balanced like doesn't burn too much nice spice fruity notes pretty good pretty good i'm happy so yeah what's what's your rating well i don't know what's our scale do you remember what our scale is zero to eight if it's zero you're like throw that shit away if it's an eight you're like clear the shelves i want this forever just put it in my belly uh and then you know anything in the middle um yeah what you got um yeah i don't have anything bad to say about it uh but it also is maybe not like my favorite one ever it's so hard we've had so many i'm just gonna say flat seven flat seven solid i was thinking six six and a half because yeah it's uh solid i like it i will have it again i do like that it's kind of soft and sweet it has

5:23a maybe that's the low it's the low proof is probably the softness and the mountain water and the mountain water yeah that matters oh oh i was reading about this too um it was uh aged in a coffin wait was it really it was real so they started out in an american oak like regular barrel but they move it from a barrel into a coffin uh which is why it has the uh coffin symbol on it and it's called gravestock so that's why it's called gravestock is there's an american oak coffin oh yeah that apparent and they're like teasing that final months resting in peace in a 380 gallon charred american oak casket yeah and was proofed with liquid death mountain water wow okay pretty fun love it i like the dedication to detail yeah what's the person that made that burn oh dude speaking of like death and and american wood here check out this banjo i bought myself for my 40th birthday here it's already beat up a zombie nice love it covered in blood it's covered in little zombie icons uh there's like a knife through his head there there's someone's foot uh it's called the zombie killer and it is very cool like here let's see

6:41oh i don't ever play this way so it's weird i'm gonna try to play mario nope i'm not gonna be able to do it standing here like that hey it sounds good it does sound good it's great having only heard you play banjo like lo-fi trying to throw it up against the mic i feel like this one sounds better than the other one you had cool i'm hoping this is my heirloom like dad's dead but don't worry we've got a zombie killer uh banjo so he'll live on forever with that sick banjo it'd be cool if they like reinforced it where they're like splatters are so you could like actually hit it on stuff and it'd be fine that would be cool did you see this saw that was around the edge too so the ring there's like a tone ring but around the ring is a saw like straight up edges of a saw it's super cool sounds dangerous yeah cut my finger ah i should put some of my real blood on there just because if it's an heirloom man i used to bleed on my guitar so much when i would play shows because i would like hit hit it wrong and catch my like nail or something and oh yeah be just pouring blood all over the guitar for like so cool yeah yeah yeah yeah we have to find

7:50some recordings of of you uh in some bands because i was saying we should do i don't know if we get chuck or somebody else to do it but we need people to listen to like a little bit of band i was in a little bit of band you were in see if they can say who was who i think that'd be a fun game i mean i feel like it's gonna be kind of obvious but i don't know maybe people don't know the past emo me and they'll be like who's this young kid singing yeah yeah i mean if you if you don't know like which uh part of the band you were i guess it's like maybe oh so you didn't sing okay okay that's yeah well i did do some singing um but like yeah so we'll see we'll see we gotta uh finish the developer band as well sometime i want so many things on the stinking to-do list it drives me nuts my to-do list is so big there's like stuff on there that i'm like i would like to get to that and i'm like yeah but there's stuff i haven't done for the past three days that i need to do so yeah i'll be an adult i guess um yeah that's what i unfortunately pick on the daily but uh maybe one day we won't have to pick that i like the uh the irony that i i texted you too it's like

9:00we need to spend some time automating ai to do some of our tasks so that we can have more time and i'm like wait that's a chicken and egg i'm like if i don't have the time i can't create the automations to save me the time i'm like agents are great for that because like they might not get it for me every time but i can at least be like hey i'd like this and then come back later and if it happened to do it then i've got it like um i did that tell me about claude co-work yeah Did you try that?

9:27I have not. But before we jump into that, I just wanted to say, like, I have I've automated one thing now and it's not 100 percent automated. But I made this thing. I was like, hey, I think I used warp on this one, not open code, because open code had the thing where you can't use your claw tokens anymore. Rug pull, rug pull. Yeah. But I was using warp and I was like, hey, build me this thing. It can be Swift because, like, it's just going to be me that uses it.

9:54So it can be Mac only. I don't care. I want to put in a link to a whiskey.fm episode and I want you to pull the title, the show notes and the transcripts, pull like five to 10 topics, then take those topics and make them into like concrete things you could make an image of, not just like react hooks, like something that's like a react hook doing it's like, I don't know, like make it like a thing that could be drawn then give it all back and like give me an image that i can use as the art for the episode because i'm trying to make like i spend too much time on those for no reason so i'm like they're super cool dude it's not no reason i love those things every single one of them i'm like dude the tlc in this is awesome yeah but like i don't have the time for that so they might get less good they'll probably have less people in them be more topic based because i used to like try to describe the person that was in the episode and have it like draw what they would look like or whatever.

10:55But now I'm just gonna be like, hey, what'd we talk about? Like, boom, we got it like better than having no art for sure. So I'm trying that out. Working okay so far. Cool. I've used warp to create an automation for me on my personal blog so that every time I drop an image into the image folder, it sends it through my I have like two phases of processing that I do, as well as generate the front matter for me. So that was like a really cool one to of the ai because the ins and outs are so clear um and then i saw something this last week too that i was very impressed by which is someone was um making a whole website a data-driven entire website so let's say you've got let's just pick music you want to do a website for the top 20 songs of 2026 whatever okay so you go get the data you stick it in uh you start a markdown file and you're basically you build out this pretty large prompt it's almost like a big prd but in the middle of the prd this person stuck a api key to korea and to um gemini nano banana and said hey i have no media for this site use these keys and create images that are engaging and um you know

12:08help with the site or whatever and then they took this humongous prompt which uh and yeah generated images for the whole thing which was anyway i thought that was cool but they pitted it against a ralph loop versus not a ralph loop and the ralph loop um was arguably not as good although it was really splitting some people were like the ralph loop one is better and i was like i kind of like the first one better they were both really good though the prd was just so well written with all these little details like i'm saying about like the image uh generation and these api keys i was very impressed also very intimidated i was like oh geez this site looks awesome and it got made for this person within minutes i'm like crap yeah yeah i mean i think sites everything is doing better and better at i think images are still kind of hit or miss like it especially if you tell it not to do a thing because if you've said the words if you're like do not put facial hair on this person is like well you said the words facial hair so i'm gonna put so much facial hair like you can't tell it not to you have to describe what you want and just omit the things you don't

13:12want or it will freak out um but yeah the next thing i want to build is like um we need a thumbnail generator so there's one built into riverside which i've been trying um for like youtube thumbnails to be like like you know like you need just the random guy with the weird face like and a title um and so it's been doing those and it won't change the text i even asked it was like can you like make the text not just the first word highlighted in yellow and then the rest black and like give me different fonts and do different stuff it's like oh absolutely i have full control over that and i was like cool can you like change it to this and it was like cool i did it and it was still the same thing i was like clearly someone has baked this into your like base knowledge somewhere hey that's that ai harness stuff we've talked about that it was like grok i was hey grok i want you to make me a meme make me a spicy meme that pisses off developers you know like uh i know you know what makes people mad and is is spicy do it and it um it was like hooks it had some comment about hooks and then um it couldn't even spell react right uh in the

14:16in the image it made i'm like oh you're so stupid this is bad yeah yeah anything like that there isn't a ton of source material on it has trouble with too like what i did i had a tweet series for like i don't know if i was trying to do one a day or one a week or whatever it was it was unsustainable i was trying to do like dad jokes about programming and i was like all right ai i've got like 10 pretty good ones here like can you understand like how i did these and like try to use the same sort of follow the patterns pattern matcher yeah yeah and it was like yeah yeah yeah And it gave me like a bunch more and they were all awful.

14:52So I was like, oh God. All right. There's just not enough people making dad jokes about programming, I feel like. Oh, geez. I tried to give a layup to, so this is the aisle. I like to describe this as giving a layup to AI. You're like, hey, I'm spelling out everything. You're smart, right? Use your intelligence to learn from what I just taught you. And it's like, it never works. um so one of the things i have on the agenda here to talk about is uh aim um which is just a trendy well it's not even true yeah what's your aim handle um i'm trying to well i succeeded i do know what flip is um from that was made by paul lewis the acronym first last invert play have you heard this i don't think so it was a way for you in javascript to take an element that needs to it's like in line in the page and now you're going to make it fixed position like over here uh so if you're listening everybody i'm holding my hands up in two different places and one hand is closed and one hand is open all right so anyway there's like an element needs to go into two states uh and they're both and tell me about sprites is one sprite entering

15:59ah yeah oh sprites i'm sorry to derail you keep going oh it's all good okay so you got element number one and you you like click it and it needs to morph to the position uh in position number two and it's not two different elements it's the same element needing to exist in two different layouts and you want to animate it between these things and you want it to be a css transition so that it's like interruptible and stuff like that okay so paul lewis comes up with this uh awesome simple way to do it called flip and the f in flip is for first you take the element where it is in the closed state um at the beginning and you take a it's not a picture but you get its bounding qualities.

16:36You get like, what's its top and its left? What's its height and its width? What are all these different properties about? What's its background color? And then you do the L, which is last. You actually put it into the new layout instantly by just setting the properties and causing reflow. So, then it goes into that end position. You take your measurements again and then you invert it, which means you put it back to the first position. And now that you know the first and then end position, you can interpolate between the two states and you get this really nice morph effect with javascript in a css transition david courchide who just had on a show recently has done a ton of play he wrote an article on css trick flip is a very cool technique for very dynamic meaningful morph transitions and i last week figured out how to do it all in css using anchor positioning uh interpolate size and oh crap there's one more feature oh starting style and so i did this yeah well i called it aim stands for anchor interpolated morph because okay so if you think about it's like uh the first part was uh finding out the measurements of the

17:40element its height its width and its position anchor can do that you just set that first element you're like hey you're an anchor uh element and so now anything else can like know the positions and bounds of that of that element and then you can take the next element which is just in its natural resting place, and then say starting style, start your styles from where this other element exists. So I'm able to make these elements morph from any element in anywhere on the screen using CSS because I can use anchor to measure where they are.

18:09They know where they are naturally, and then they can like morph from that position. Anyway, it's really cool. So I'm like figuring out how to do a flip with CSS and anchor. So anchor is really cool. and anchor just went baseline in firefox so i was just about to ask is it supported everywhere yet uh i mean it's not like we can use it it's so funny all these cool things come out i'm like at work i can't use it even even when it's baseline at work i'm like okay it's i have to support iris 16 oh because because of older stuff so yeah for me it's like supported everywhere i don't give a shit about the older stuff like if if the newest browser that's not like a canary supports it ship that like nice oh so you're yeah big fan baseline my site kind of does that well my site will early adopt all sorts of things i'm willing to manage two versions or even just have a lame version and then a dope one i'm like that's that's cool with me but at work we uh we can't do that it's like it can't be broken yeah uh yeah work is different i'm talking about my personal stuff i even did like broadly before it worked and like everything like chrome was the

19:08only thing i think and i was like hey it's way smaller gonna ship it like that's awesome yeah because like there's not that many people coming to my personal site or whatever so i'm like the people that are probably developers on like the latest chrome like it doesn't doesn't matter um but yeah i'm excited for the anchor stuff because i've been wanting to use that um like you can't do everything just yet you're going to need like some polyfills or extra code or whatever to support like we're using a floating ui um in shepherd to do like basically what anchor stuff does yeah and i would like to replace that because it is big and it is like the biggest part of the uh the library as of right now it's also badass but yeah oh it's great yeah no shade on them i just like you know in the chase or not chase race to the smallest libraries um i'm trying to do that and also i might replace svelte with solid because okay svelte 5 for whatever reason and rich is not helping with this so rich if you hear this uh maybe we can make it better but like it it increased the bundle size by like 10 kilobytes or something um like it went from like

20:2017 to like 28 or like i guess it's still four to five it went up yeah and so i think what he was saying is like the the waste felt five works is like the base part like uh i don't god i can't think of words the like uh the main part you're shipping like the little what do you call that the core the core the core is like bigger um but then each component is smaller since we have like five components we don't benefit from that because like it's like if you had a like a thousand component app then you'd be like oh my god it's so much smaller because like each component is smaller but we have five components and so like it's not smaller because the core is bigger which i think is what we're hitting um we are also still using the like legacy don't use this classes thing because like yeah because it's uh it won't let you send a reference to an element back out still so i need some magic from someone who knows how to do that to fix that um but i was like yo ai um this is pretty well tested you want to convert it to solid for me and it was like dope and it did and it was back to like the size of svelte 4 and i was like hmm could ship like

21:39so um i'm interested but i don't want to like i like philosophically like svelte so i don't want to like move away from svelte because just because like i want to make for sure that it's like what i have to do before i do it yeah good call you know the it kind of goes into one of our other topics it's like you want to make the smallest library how about your library doesn't even ship code yeah see did you see this post i put in the discord as articles somebody wrote no where they how if it doesn't ship code what does it do well let's let's talk about that they ship the specs and um all the expectations so it's basically shipping instructions for an llm so here's the thing this person shipped a library that basically does relative dates you know like five seconds ago or 20 20 days ago and it's all localized it does all it does all the things like a huge date functions library would do however it ships no code it just ships the the great spec and instructions and expectations so that an llm can do it in any language and so this person's like i made a library that works across elixir and ruby and rust and whatever because it's not

22:57it didn't prescribe to a language. It just is a spec. And I thought this was super interesting because I'm very pro spec-driven development. And this was the first time I saw someone to kind of do it at a micro level where they're like, oh yeah, I'll just ship all this stuff as a library. And I'm like, this is kind of awesome. The only thing that's like, there are downsides to it. Like you can't really log bugs against the library, which also maybe that's an upside.

23:22I'm like, oh, no one can log bugs against me? That shit rules. well you still could i mean it's not a like you know uh can't read whatever of undefined bug but it's like yeah um you know the spec is maybe a little wrong in this spot like i want to reword it like add some tests for this case that the ai keeps screwing up yeah yeah so i think i think that's where we're going because like um people are already like not even interviewing with code at all they're just like hey show me how you can prompt and like let's see how productive you can be i don't care how you do it um jake stuff yep shopify is revamping and updating their interview stuff what's up dude he's chewing up a box he says i know you're up here ignoring me i can smell the dog breath through the camera bro yeah yeah sorry you were saying uh something about shopify uh shopify is updating their their interview stuff too and i was asking and I have my own answers to this, but like, what if someone shows up to the interview and they just Ralph Wiggum loop the whole question?

24:31Or what if they take it, give it to, we were talking last week about Gastown. They just give it to Gastown. They're like, hey, mayor of Gastown, here's a interview. Why don't you just solve it? And then they just sit back and they twiddle their thumbs. So, hey, what do you want to talk about while all my agents do all this interview you know like you know do we reward that person do we not reward the person so there's all these different scenarios now that we're it all depends yeah so basically we don't want anybody showing up that just prompts the whole time and can't explain anything that's going on it's a bad sign or do you though so i mean this this is where i think we're going is like there's gonna be some percentage of people hold on okay hold on i'm gonna shut shut jake out one sec all right edit that out somebody editing this later okay so there's gonna be some percentage of people who are just like innately uh savants at prompting right so like if they're for some reason just really good at controlling all ai and they get really good results that work really well every time do you care if that person understands

25:33anything about the code if they're shipping insane amounts of really good stuff that people who do know about code go wow that's good stuff like i would say no you're right i hate that but it seems very fair in terms of like yeah they're producing the thing we want the output is desirable they can't explain it but who cares they can't explain why they're good or yeah like if you make good art you're probably like hey i don't i don't know how i do it i just go like bah and it's good like some but then again some people some artists who are like classically trained are like oh i know all of the different strokes and i like do it this way and And like, you know, like, I think there's their own colors, right?

26:17Yeah. There's room for both. And I think it's not as much of a science as we were led to believe. There's a lot of art to coding and making, especially in web development, like in a, you know, purely back end runs on your like computer app or something. There's not as much art to that because it's more just like input output. But like, there's a lot of gray area and stuff that has any kind of UI. Yeah. I mean, this is all very pro-spec too, because we're just moving so quickly towards the code matters less and less, which also comes in another one of the talking points, which I think we've briefly done before, which is, do types even matter?

26:57Does having a database matter? Because if a database is a layer of indirection for all your data, and AI doesn't give a crap about that, AI can just build a site off of local files, and it can write to files, and then you have no dependencies. And where is this going to end where code is just completely irrelevant in favor of prompting and spec authoring. I even think the spec side is even cooler. Like Toby at Shopify has a lot of great ideals and guidelines and just like things that guide him in general.

27:31And so you could kind of take a lot of that stuff, codify it into like the heart of the specs of your company, and then have all these additional people go build on top of those and elaborate and then your whole kind of system is a manifestation of your ethos and your your services uh kind of combined and then you combine that with brand and like a design system and some other things and you're really kind of reaching a new level of just producing software where the code doesn't matter it matters more about the the core that you were talking about earlier isn't the core of the framework it's like the core of like why why are we doing stuff uh becomes more important than what are we making and that i've i've always liked the why over what um so i'm anyway this is dude is wild can it slow down please i'm exhausted yeah i wish it would slow down um this we were talking about this at work is why i put this uh this bullet point on here because we're just now in like a nine or ten year old code base, adding some TypeScript in, which is always hard in an old code base with lots of cruft.

28:35And we were basically kind of having a philosophical discussion around like, what do we want to recommend as the way to do TypeScript, right? Because you can do it a few ways. You can have like one where it's like, oh yeah, I want everything to be super strict. Like if you type a file, I don't want to ever see an any, I want everything to be perfect. I don't want to ever use a type from that that's wrong. There's another philosophy that's like, well, I don't care about most of this because it's pretty trivial but this one thing is really hairy I want to like type that and then I want the rest to be any I don't care um and we were just kind of talking our way through like what do we want to do how do we approach converting the code base and then we were kind of like wait so you've got you know thousands and thousands of files it could take years to convert maybe you can do a code mod or some AI stuff to like make it pretty quick I don't know we're you know in the fact finding phase right now but we're like But what is the point anyway?

29:28Because if we're going to like, like the, as an alternative to converting anything at all to TypeScript, what if you spend a lot of time investing in your guardrails for AI and you were like, hey, everyone on like all these other teams who is maybe not as senior or doesn't know the full code base or whatever, like use this when you're writing code and it will keep you from doing dumb stuff that like TypeScript would also have saved you from. but like we don't care about TypeScript anymore.

29:54We just want you to like write everything through this. It'll check and make sure like you're not doing that. And then TypeScript doesn't need to exist except for if you fully typed it all too, then AI could go way faster because it could be sure about being like, oh, I know all these types are for sure this way. So like there's still some benefits, but it was kind of like, we're probably never going to do that because why would we spend a year of like a developer's time when ai can just kind of save us oh man i'm in i'm in a code base all day right now it's over a million lines of typescript no no any's uh everything's type love it jealous um well i i mean there's just there's just so many trade-offs like okay first off ai is not wildly empowered by this it's it's equally as hindered as like a it's like a human is and also i think it might actually be adding overhead um because it it churns it doesn't know all it knows is like i'm gonna try to go do this thing and it goes and does the thing it's like oh there's a lint air oh there's a type air and then it just like bounces back and forth in there and

30:59then it still can't see and even if you teach it to see um it doesn't oh man we we're trying to turn this thing into like a little human um and i'm not seeing it wildly do great things inside of a big code base and we just okay so here's a good example we just saw uh codex 5.2 come out uh chat gpt codex right yeah it's opening i codex anyway and its whole thing is they're trying to pitch hey if you got a big ass code base and you finding that ai models are really shitty at going through it and having long running ideas we just made the ai model for you it's called codex 5.2 and it's specialized for long running bullshit and it's like i don't think it's actually going to do that much better man like it's kind of like there's so much code and there's so many edge cases and it's like css css constantly shows up and it's all like it's all like my job's done you're like did you look at it and it's like yeah i took a picture look at the pictures and it pretty and you're like it no it's vomit dude like did you even know and it's like and then the other thing too is like we're trying to do code mods or migrations or whatever it is like it can take a

32:03picture of the beginning state and it'll take a picture of the end state happily and be like i took pictures and you're like yeah but what do they look the same yeah well a lot of times they're not supposed to so it's like how do you how do you describe what's supposed to change in the picture that's the follow-up one if it's a layout change get there because it's all based on like the uh oh god my brain doesn't work like the visual diffusion or whatever wherever it like you know makes it all noise and then static static picture yeah so like if we can figure out how to tell that like this part of the noise is now blue it could be like ah yes i've i've made the noise a noisy blue right there and it is now blue um i don't know i feel like there's a way to do it we got comments in here from mr ray dev he says codex is crazy worse than even cloud so mr ray dev was like a long running oh let me try it and then all of a sudden it's not and i'm just not surprised by that because um i want them to be good and i and i think i talked about it last week too where i've been rolling forward a skill so that way when i spin up agents that um you know like i have one

33:13little agent does this task and it helps evolve a skill and that way it passes information forward and i don't have to keep a database i don't keep beads i don't have to keep git i don't have to have gas town it's like i just have this one migration i don't need one code mod i'm not trying to do this to my whole and it's still um it just screws up enough times and it also hiccups on types constantly so that's why i'm looking at typescript going what are you really doing right now other than perceptively slowing us down um yeah yeah i mean i'm i think using it as a linter and not trying to be super strongly typed and using it like sparingly i think is the way i would recommend using it now.

33:54Like if it's a project that just I'm working on, I'm going to, I'm a completionist with the types. So I'm going to get it all typed. But like, I think in terms of, you know, leading a team, just type the like one or two things that, you know, people are getting wrong a lot or whatever, like help them there. But other, it's just a linter. Like you could also write an ESLint rule that would like check, am I using this thing wrong? And like, you know, I feel like it's like that.

34:18It just has less steps. So like, I think that is the way I'm to probably be using it going forward versus trying to have a fully typed everything um although i love when things are fully typed but it's fully typed feels good i'm not gonna lie dude it always that's why rust is popular if you can make your rust app run you're like hell yeah per like a kitten uh you know like there's no mess upstairs i feel like ai though like uh just it once you're past like four files it just starts to go downhill and even when they run these things over nights and weekends like people are just spending tokens and i'm not seeing amazing results yet and so here's the thing though it's like i'm assuming it's going to get there and so um i'm going to keep tinkering i'm going to keep trying to see how these tools work um because they're not done growing every week it's just wild so we'll see where it all goes yeah it's been pretty good for me i've been so at work we have an exception to use copilot and only copilot basically um sucks to be you well however so we have a loophole now this is new development as of today um github

35:26tweeted like open code this was jared fully supported and i was like hmm so i was like okay is this a loophole where we can use open code now and the principle on my team was like yes and i was like hell yeah all right we're yeah we're gonna you gotta go install that oh my open code it's a really great layer on top of open code i'm a big fan so i want to come back to that and hear what's in that but did you say they have a app now like it's not just the cli you can install an open code app i saw you write that and open code black so inform me i am not caught up so open code black is this thing um it's like uh the claude code like or claude's whatever where they have like the 20 tier and then the max tier that's like 100 and it's like their version of that but it just like spreads the work across whatever model they want at the time so it's like open code zen kind of except with a like more baked in price instead of charging you per token um and so people were signing up for it because they would open up like 20 spots at a time and they would sell out like before anyone could click it so now they have just a wait list like you can go buy it

36:34and be like we'll charge you whenever we like onboard you finally um so i signed up for for it and I'm going to give it a try. Because OpenCode, I think, is the best developer experience thus far. So I want to try it with a, like, I don't have to worry about every couple hours at going, hey, you got to wait a while to, like, do anything else. And also, like we said, you can't use it with, I was using it with my Anthropic, like, $20 code, which no longer works.

37:02So you can use Anthropic, like, charge me based on every character you send me. But I don't love that. so yeah dude let's uh let's compare let's wait open code like a corn site for dead nice that's good i'm trying to like so wait what is it that you like about open code over clod over um uh warp for example or even like are you in cursor or are you in windsurf cursor and windsurf are dead to me I don't want those so you're terminal all day are you using worktrees no I'm not doing anything super advanced and a lot of my preferences are just vibes like opencode was the first one to do the LSP stuff so it was better at typescript than everyone else just because they connected it to a typescript LSP and so that won me over that was the first thing where I told it to do something and it gave me a thing that I would actually ship.

38:05Like I did a lot of AI stuff before and it was like, ah, this was like an interesting, you know, debugging exercise, but I'm not going to ship your code. And this one I was like, wow, you did a good job. So I liked OpenCode for that. Warp has done a good job as well, but it seems to like, I don't know what it is. Maybe it's because it's kind of like, I have it set to auto pick the model or whatever. Maybe it's picking bad models, but it's like very hit or miss like sometimes it does a terrible job sometimes it does a great job and it feels kind of like ai used to feel like um so yeah sometimes i've i've been using warp more especially since the clod stuff stopped working in open code um and i've got some good stuff out of warp warp actually fixed a bug for me today with uh in swatch there's a um magnifier color picker thing i don't know if i talked to you about this bug before but so you got this circle right and you move it in the middle pixel like picks that color and on windows it works if you have a just a 100 dpi screen like there's no scaling factor but if you i have 72 or or what do you

39:14mean like like your your screen resolution let's say you have a monitor that's like oh it's at it's at its natural natural resolution yeah okay so then it worked but if you like i have mine set to 200% because I have like a 5,000 pixel monitor. And so if you don't, it's like teeny tiny and I can't read anything. Um, so at 200%, it was not, it was like a thousand pixels off. Like it was clear offset, like wasn't factoring in the DPI. And, uh, so I had asked open code a bunch of times to fix this.

39:48Like I'd released several versions and it kept being like, it's fixed, ship it. And I shipped it and it didn't change anything. And, um, so work was like, went down the same path for a minute and was like oh yeah let me fix it like we got to see what we multiply and divide and whatever and i was like wait what if we just make the windows side dpi aware so we don't have to do any math we just let it like pick the pixels i was like why haven't why has no one said that before why is it that's an option um so so we did that and it works now so like warp saved me there i don't know what model it was using or but like yeah it's it's like i feel like warp is right 50 of the time but does like super magical good stuff when it's right and open code is like uh stuff you could ship more often but is maybe not as magical and fancy and good i don't know like it's it's more the baseline that i can kind of count on um i think there's room for both and i've had success with both yeah so uh open code i've been playing with that for a couple weeks uh it's now available at shopify as well as clod code both of which i can kind of pick

40:53whatever model i want and so i have a lot of experience with both of those oh yeah we'll talk about oh my open code here in a sec but i also use cursor a lot um cursor has some killer features like people are like uh i i used clod today to to spin up three agents to do some work and i'm like you know in cursor that's just a drop down menu right you you write your prompt and you say, how many agents do you want to do the work? You say three. That's fancy.

41:18And it creates work trees, bro. So it's even fancier than that. So you go like three agents. Well, I haven't used it in a while. When I used it, it was like open-ended text box. I was like, can you make this change? And it was like, I made it. And I was like, no, you didn't. It was like, yeah, I did. I was like, no, you didn't. So I didn't, maybe I should try it again because it was terrible when I used it last. It's also like pretty wildly different.

41:39Well, it has two modes. Same thing with anti-gravity. like they have agent modes where you're like, I don't even look at the code. You're almost purely in like a, but I don't use those as much. But anyway, yeah, if you, if you open up cursor, fly out the side menu, write your prompt, look for the one X that's underneath your prompt, change it to three or four. And all that does is create agents and work trees for each of those work streams. They work, you get to watch their little batons come back and then they highlight green.

42:06You click them and you see their diff. You review the diff and it changes your code as if it would have done before and then you can like either accept it or try on the other one and try on the other one so every time you click one it changes your code to their changes you can see it in your browser if you've got live reload going on figure out the one you want accept the one delete the work trees and go back okay now claude can't even do that possibilities and pick the best one yeah i mean okay wait and i rephrase like claude and open code can do that exact same thing It's just you have to be very explicit and deliberate and you don't get the really rich switching kind of experience.

42:42Because like open code definitely uses subagents because I've seen it say like I've got a bunch of subagents doing this stuff, but it doesn't let you see and pick. Like it's not doing them side by side. I think it's doing like separate things. It's like four agents doing four different things, not four of the same to see which could have the better output. You know, so I think that's a compelling use case because you do get wildly different stuff.

43:04It's non-deterministic. So like I had four things doing the same thing. I picked the best one. I like that. I might have to try that. Yeah. There's also, there's so many, this world is crazy right now. Okay. So the other thing is you have people, and I've been trying this too, where you pit different AI models against each other. So no longer like right now we're in a very mono model model. Oh shit. That was M and M and M. Right. Where you're like monogamous with your model.

43:30But a lot of, there's people out there that are polyamorous with their models. and that's just fun to say um and they are basically saying okay hey gemini you go do this task hey claude you go do this task hey chachi you go do this task and then hey claude go review this work that's that came back from claude oh or whatever anyway you have them review each other and that's like one of the superpowers of open code is that you can kind of pit them against and warp right you can open up you can open up command t and warp you hit command d to split it vertically command shift D. And now you've got four quadrants, like you're in Tmux.

44:04You can have four different agents reviewing other agents work to sort of get yourself into this scenario where you're not trusting a single agent to do everything. That's wild. And so, yeah, you combine that with like work trees and these other things. So here's the magic of warp that I still really like is that I don't have to care about what is an MCP server, what is a skill and what is a hook and what is a command i get to tell it what i want and it sort of derives the best thing for me and my favorite thing is still mcp discovery where i'm like hey i need this thing to to get done uh like what happened doing that too it was like i was like do some get stuff and it was like pulling the git crack in mcp to figure out how git works and i was like oh shit okay yeah that's really cool stuff because uh it's really annoying configuring things like it's Okay, let me rephrase.

44:56Configuring things is very fun. It's also a time waste. So like if something can kind of configure on the fly based on my request, that's really cool. And Warp is the one that constantly does that for me where I'm like, I asked for a thing and I say, hey, go verify it. And then it'll be like, oh, sure. I'll spin up a browser. And all of a sudden Chrome opens up with this special profile and I can see it taking pictures. And then it starts to cost me a lot of money because it's like I took pictures and then I took the picture and I tokenized and I sent it to the server and I reviewed it.

45:22And I'm doing it again and again and again. And I'm like, stop taking pictures right now. You're going to eat up all my credits. $20 later, you should use this MCP. Crap. Yeah. But yeah, I was trying to just like tell someone why I like Windsurf better than Cursor the other day. And I just couldn't. It was vibes. And I'm like, this is annoying. I wish I could tell you more. I had both. And that was the same for me, too. It was like at the base use case of like, you know, opening a file and just working on some stuff and hitting tab to tab through stuff.

45:57It was better. I don't know why they both do the same thing. Like, but it was just I felt better with the like tab autocomplete. And at the time, the agentic stuff in both was abysmal. So it didn't matter. But like the, you know, day to day, I'm still writing code. I just want you to autocomplete a couple of things. worked way better in windsurf for me for whatever reason okay so let's talk about co-work and then i want to talk about agency what do you know about i saw co-work is like making files for people and has file system access and i was like nope i am not ready for this thing to like just be reading all of my shit no thank you i want to give it to it with a spoon i'm not ready for automated yeah i haven't used it but i just saw somebody tweeted like thank god anthropic is coming for everyone else's jobs now.

46:44And I was like, yes, yes, that is a, cause like, I do find myself being like, all right, I have a, you know, I can't think of an example, but some task I want to do in life. Like I'd like to plan this thing, schedule this thing, uh, you know, research, getting tickets to something, doing whatever. Like I would like to be able to approach that in the same way of just being like, hello, agentic thing. Like I want to do this stuff. Tell me the best way, like find it for me so i think it's compelling to like apply that workflow to the rest of your life but like yeah i i do think you're going to hit a token problem and like if we're using it for everything uh the cost is going to catch up at some point like you can't get used to using it for everything um so i don't know i'm cautiously optimistic i think it's cool i want to try it out but i just i just wanted to mention that it exists i don't have much else to say about it yeah i mean either i kind of got scared by it i was like i'm not ready for that you know the thing that scared me the most though wasn't a co-worker kind of like taking those jobs it said i saw uh ai is now

47:46growing crops it's growing food uh and i was like oh so farmers maybe we won't have farmers anymore i was like what if ai disrupts the farming industry yikes yeah well the farming industry is a whole nother episode we could talk about like i think that whole thing is broken we should not have big giant farms where like if one company has like a bad growing season we don't have food like the local farm model is what we should be doing but i'm not i'm gonna get off my soapbox because we're gonna run out of time so um yeah tell me about agency or whatever you're saying okay okay so agency um in in an age uh where uh intellectual stuff is on tap uh what you need now are people that are adventurers and tinkerers and the people that you can trust to go figure it out.

48:40So you need to, we're seeing a rise of agency, meaning that we want to give people less of a specific role and trust people to just go around and do good. Like work for the company. You can focus on this area and we're not going to tell you very much what to do. What we want to do is trust you that you're equipped with AI and that you are just constantly doing good. You're deploying agents over here to do that. That's improving whatever you're over here, improving internal processes.

49:11You're making an internal tool like you are free. Now you're now liberating. Your chains have been broken from your front end role or even your design role. We want to give you agency and trust you to just go do good. And I'm like, that's really cool. so it's cool but like in that world and i guess this is the world we're in everywhere even if you are specialized in one specific area like how do you ever get a raise or a new position or like if you're just kind of like you're in charge of the vibes of this area of work it's like well how do i show that i did good at the vibes like you used your agency and you actually showed your own made a change it's like yeah okay well yeah so i mean i guess there's that like if you're if you're your own manager in your own department and you're setting your own goals and you're writing rfcs that you comment on yourself and you're like i don't know like i feel like there has to be someone at some level that's deciding like is the criteria you came up with good do we agree did you do well should you get more money?

50:21Like, or I don't know. Maybe all of that is done. Maybe there's no more promotions for anyone ever. I mean, I feel like we're pretty quickly heading towards we don't need developers, designers, or any of us anymore. So that's depressing. Yeah. Please give me a severance of the rest of the money that I would have made for the rest of my life and I'll be happy. oh yeah my 401k is not not ready to have no job it's gonna be wild if uh if it really does displace as many things as it's kind of positioned to yeah no i'm i'm trying to get in the physical goods game like i was talking to my friend who is a local farmer he has popcorn on the cob that he just like he doesn't take it off the cob you just get the whole cob he gives you a bag and you put it in the microwave i thought you had to take it off the cob to pop it but you don't and so i was like this is so cool like people would love to take a fucking cob and put it in their microwave hells yeah why does no one sell it in this form so i'm like we should do that like why are we doing that online yeah yeah um and then he starts scheming he's like oh yeah you just need 40 acres and you can grow 1 million

51:37cobs a year and like i was like okay like i'm not ready for that but like yeah i want to get into something like that like experiment like i think ai can help you iterate on your ideas and you're like have a good website with basically no effort and like throw up some instagram ads see where where it lands like i don't know i i want to get into more of that kind of stuff because i feel like you know the developer stuff can't can't last forever like i think we'll outpace most hopefully like before we're stay on top of it yeah but yeah i don't know it's bleak it is oddly bleak um i mean last week was bleak right now we're bleak still i don't know we always will be we we still bring the joy though we're having whiskey it's okay hey i showed a zombie killer oh wait i want to talk about something that brought me joy this week it's a wantmymtv.vercell.app it's you can watch mtv so do you remember um mtv just stopped running right i saw that like well that's what i'm saying it doesn't have to stop you can watch someone's curated everything off of youtube all the music videos put them organized by like era and commercials and put

52:51it into a thing so it's like did you ever watch nick reboot.tv i think it was nick group you could just go to this website and it was playing stuff and you just tuned in like it was old school tv there was commercials you know skip it skip it or whatever um and you'd watch hey arnold and you'd catch half the episode because you tuned in late you know and it was awesome yeah uh got shut down for probably pretty good reasons but yeah uh this mtv one is awesome in the same way you can be like i want to listen to 2000s um music videos and you just go there you hit a button and there's like 3 000 music videos from the 2000s that'll just randomly play for you and play commercials in between every it's been awesome dude and i'm finding new music i'm like how did i know that song that metal song i was i was always a fuse listener did you ever listen watch fuse i didn't but my spouse was huge in a fuse yeah oh yeah yeah it was uh like as soon as that came out i don't know what it was like the alternative mtv like more rock based and i just had it playing like all day like i thought it was so cool um but yeah i'm i mean music videos i feel

53:56like are a lost art. Like people are still making them, but it's like, I'm, I personally don't like to go consume YouTube. Um, I'm probably in the minority there, but like, I like a thing that just picks it for me, curate it. I don't, I don't want to go like click on it. I just want it to be a feed with commercials and like, yeah, like traditional TV. Sounds good. You're going to love this. It's been really nice for while I'm working. So I just put it on, although it's been, it's okay.

54:22So let me rephrase. It's been really nice. That's still the phrase, but also sometimes really distracting because i'm like that music video is really sexy i'm like holy shit that was that i watched that as a 14 year old i'm like my goodness i'm like that shit was hot as hell jeez louise so anyway i just from like watching these music videos like that was okay holy jeez wow um but also some of them are just hilariously like simple and awesome so yeah enjoy everybody we'll put that link in the show notes yeah we always end up uh watching music videos at the end of like anytime we have people over and we're hanging out and it's like 1 a.m that's like you just throw on music videos so that'd be cool just throw that on you don't have to even pick the next one yeah yeah good call so yeah i uh got six ish minutes left um i do want to mention the topic that we didn't get to did we get to it and then when i was like should we talk about it more next time i don't know anyway the fact that booze and nicotine and like you know any sort of like thing that are fun or historically thought of as fun um are like way down um yeah

55:30and it's like people probably still like fun so i don't know if it's like a one one thing could be like a health thing like maybe people i know there's a lot of different like i get so many ads for like this cocktail alternative it makes you feel good i'm like feel good how what drugs are in it nothing okay probably doesn't do anything like yeah so i'm like um i don't know i'm skeptical about those i don't know if you've tried any of those na party beer oh i keep getting yeah i keep getting those like oh you still want to party but don't want to drink here have this na beer beer beer is awful i don't want to drink beer if it doesn't have alcohol in it that's stupid um so no but like the like kin euphorics have you seen those like no it's it's just like a herbally i don't know nootropic like supposed to be like good for your mind make you more social etc like you know the good parts of drinking but like not the bad but like i haven't tried them so i guess i can't shit on it until i try it but i am very skeptical um but anyway people could be doing some of that could be doing whatever how could that succeed though if if actual booze is down

56:34how could the na alternatives be up i don't know but yeah okay sorry anyway my hypothesis is that everything is down i think everyone is losing their jobs the entire economy is down inflation is up recession big time minnesota's throwing bombs into people's cars as they're trying to exit ice yep it's nuts yeah like um i saw on the today show the other day that pizza is down like 30 percent like what's up you know yeah that's what i'm saying it's like if even pizza can't do well like pretty much an american staple like um i think everything is down because everyone is like i can't afford to live much less go get a fucking pizza so like i'm gonna make a pizza at home if i want a pizza like i think that's what's happening so i don't think people like i think there could be increased demand for like all this stuff again i'm not sure i'm just like you know spouting whatever but i that that's how i feel i i don't think that it's like doom and gloom around the alcohol industry and it's going to fully go away because like you got to replace it with something people need something to numb their minds um tea man just uh just you know an herbal

57:44tea um i keep wondering about supply and demand so as soon as i'm like oh these things are down so supply is there demand is down i'm like what so is everything going to get cheaper that would kind of well that would be awesome welcome thing yeah because the whiskey industry has gotten nuts this stuff is way too expensive like chuck was telling me about it and uh i don't know the full story but the the essential uh facts are basically like uh you know they sell like this whistle pig let's say they'd sell it for 20 bucks 30 bucks whatever like the original cheap price and then they were noticing people would buy all of them and resell them on like you know i bought this liquor.com for like 60 bucks and they're like wait you guys are buying all this because you think it's good and just like making it more expensive we'll just make it more expensive we'll just we'll cut out the middle man and so that's why everything has gone up like to whiskey like the cheapest of a like not anything that's not like a jack daniels is like if it's a nice whiskey it's going to be 50 bucks plus like because that's what's happened and it's it's

58:46always a dinner for two anywhere it's ridiculous okay yeah that's it yeah so we've had this debate with one of our friends it's like he's like okay if you go to like i don't know fast food mcdonald's taco bell whatever and you're like all right i've got two adults a couple kids whatever the amount that you'll spend on that he's saying is actually sometimes more than you'll spend going to like a sit-down restaurant because like if you go to he has certain ones you go to that like if you get a adult entree your kids eat free or something like that and so it's like the kids aren't a factor in the costs you got two adult entrees at like 20 bucks or whatever and then like um yeah i'm like well what about tip or whatever he's like no he insists like it doesn't matter what he does it's cheaper to sit at the like sit down restaurant i was like that's fucked up man like that's not the way it should be like fast food has gotten super expensive super expensive i've noticed the same thing the uh there's so we do woody wednesdays and one of the reasons we do Little Woody's is because it's locally, it's like a local famous person.

59:50It's wildly cheap, really good quality. Their french fries are amazing. And I walk out of there and I can feed the whole family for 45 bucks. I pretty much can't do that anywhere, anywhere. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, well, Seattle is its own beast because when I was there, I got Taco Bell delivered and I got, let's see, like a burrito and two tacos or something. Like not a lot. And it was like $67 or something. Oh my goodness. Because they're like, hey, you're in Seattle, bro.

1:00:23Like this is going to be at least $30 just for us to even open the DoorDash app. And then like there's so many extra fees. And I was like, holy shit. So yeah, I mean, stuff is probably just more expensive in general. If you're buying food for just yourself, the order stuff is just stupid. You're going to pay more in fees than the food is. Yeah. That's why I always order like two or three meals whenever I get delivery. And then you just microwave it.

1:00:48Ooh, good idea. Dang, that's a life hack right there. Yep, yep. Yeah, and also Costco has Uber Eats and DoorDash gift cards. You can get $100 of gift cards for like $75 or $80 or something. How does that make any sense? I buy them every time I go. They limit you. You can only get like four per month or something because they don't want you just having infinite like percent off at DoorDash, I guess. I don't know. This is so weird. This world is so weird right now.

1:01:20Yep. All right. We are at time. Is there anything that we missed that you want to mention before we end? No, man. That was awesome. Cool. All right. Thanks, everyone, for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe. Leave us some ratings. Please actually do. I'm not going to say the same spiel that I always do. Go to Spotify, click our show, click rate, give it five stars. Do the same on Apple. It is very quick. Those of you that are listening that haven't done it, shame on you.

1:01:48I've asked you so many times. All right, we'll catch you guys next time. Yeah, like. You've been watching Whiskey Web and Whatnot, recorded in front of a live studio audience. What the fuck are you talking about, Chuck? Enjoyed the show? Subscribe. You know people don't pay attention to these, right? Head to whiskey.fun for merch and to join our Discord server. I'm serious. It's like 2% of people who actually click these links. And don't forget to leave us a five-star review and tell your friends about the show.

1:02:19All right, dude. I'm out of here. Still got it.