What Great Leaders Do Differently Today Explained | Simonetta Rigo

0:00In this industry that's consolidating and becoming more competitive, the companies that win have to show a good degree of organic growth. On the other hand, if you grow too fast, it can be a sign of not growing in the right way. Simonetta Rigo, chief client officer at Rathbones, began her career in management consulting at McKinsey. Today, she sits at the intersection of strategy, brand experience and growth. What's the best and worst of working in marketing Now? It's getting harder and more complex and more fast-paced to actually execute stuff.

0:29There's never been in a better place to be marketing and it's the best of time and it's the worst of times. It's the best of times because. What makes Simonetta particularly compelling is how she reframes marketing not as campaigns or comms, but as stewardship of the client experience. Why does anyone go to a wealth manager? Why don't you do stuff yourself? It's because they're going to do a better job, right? The expectation is of a client coming to a wealth manager is that they'll get more out of their money so they can get more out of their life. This is a master class in modern marketing leadership. Let's go.

0:58Hey Simon, it's amazing to have you on the show. Thank you so much for having me. Well, it is our pleasure. So want to give people the opportunity to get to know you a little bit first. So tell us a little bit about your journey into and through marketing, through the years with all the pivots and so on. Absolutely. I didn't really start my career in marketing right. And I, I almost stumbled upon it, very serendipitously. So actually my first job was a management consultant at McKinsey, but I had that and I loved the rigor and the analytics of it. But I had, I had a restlessness about two things #1 ownership, right?

1:38And, and seeing things through to, to real business impact. And the other one was I, I just always felt a bit like a misfit. I've always felt a bit different from your typical management consultant. And so I left, I joined financial services at Amex for 10 years. And I, I, I joined in their strategy team and then I went into their product management team and then product development. But I still wasn't a proper marketer. And then I left and I joined Boop International and I did 2 years of strategy and business development. And then that job came to an end and I was recruited by Western Union in a customer strategy role. And I kept thinking, well, why do they want me in this role? There's a marketer over there that can do this job really well, but they wanted me.

2:23They wanted my strategic thinking. They wanted my understanding of like product and product development and product management and how you take them, the propositions into communication strategy. And three months into that role, I was promoted to VP of Global brand and marketing for Western Union. And after a few months of panic and having a brilliant boss who really believed in me and, and supported me and a brilliant team underneath that actually from whom I learned a lot, that was a start in my career in marketing and I, I've never left it so far. Wow.

2:55Well, look, I mean, today you run sort of the full sort of client agenda at Rathbones. I mean, it's, it's quite fascinating because of course that includes sort of the, the full gambit from marketing right through to owning experiences and so on and so forth. So, I mean, you know, tell us a little bit about what it's like to kind of have all these sort of levers that you can pull out in this role. Yeah. I mean, what I loved about the the role when it when I saw it advertised was absolutely the breadth of the remand because you go from your insights function to propositions and service experience to marketing to brand and digital services. So owning the digital journeys as well and colleague communications and advocacy.

3:41So internal communication also sits in the function and to corporate communications and corporate affairs. So it's got really the full breadth of, of, of the client strategic client functions, right. But I think if you focus too much on, on remits, you sort of miss a bit the point, right? I think what's really great about this job is you to think about yourself as really the, the, the steward of the client experience. And I really believe that in financial services, the brand is the experience is the brand. And you know, you're in a professional services business. So really the experience gets delivered by the practitioners, these highly qualified professionals who deliver advice to their clients.

4:27So really they own the experience. So I've never think of myself as being an absolute owner, but I do see myself as a steward, as a facilitator, right? And I like to think about my job as as three things. The first thing is when you're in in professional services business where your colleagues are client facing, there's a little bit of everyone knows something about the customer, but nobody knows everything about all clients and nobody knows about the clients that we don't have.

4:58And so my job is is to be a bit of a chief listening officer is to harvest the insights that I get from my colleagues who speak to clients with the discipline of insights and market research and really build the full picture. So that's the first thing. The second thing is that there are a lot of parts of the business that touch the client and deliver the client experience. So I see myself more of an orchestrator rather than an absolute owner. And to orchestrate you not only have to be really a strong cross functional leader, right?

5:31And see, see yourself as managing the whole, even when things don't report into you, but you also have to be a bit of a chief inspiration officer because you can only influence if you inspire, right? And so the third part of the job is actually the the building that narrative, that vision about what do we stand for? How are we special? How are we going to win with customers and then get everyone excited about that agenda. So that I think is to me the biggest, the turning point of the role, no matter what sits in or out, because the remits do change as the organizations change, but it's really having that vision around what we need to do to win with customers and then inspiring the organization to deliver against that. I've got to say I'm, I'm, I'm really, to use your word, inspired by the way you've described the remit in the role into those three sort of core sections. But the thing, the linchpin that really I took from it is the role of experience.

6:32Now, how you influence that, how you inspire people to create great experiences, but it all is very much centered in and around the client and whether you're the orchestrator to help your colleagues to deliver on that, etcetera. And and so for me, one of the core facets of your proposition is how you kind of create unique experiences for your clients. And I wondered if you could bring that to life a little bit for us, maybe a few examples of how you do it the Rathbones way, which is unique from everywhere else.

7:02Yeah, absolutely. Well, we're on a journey, so I'm not going to claim our right success. I've only been in the role for a year and a half, but I always go back to first principles, right. And the first principle is what is this organization fundamentally here to do? What is our role in clients lives and how do we do that differently? Because we're not the only player in this category. In fact, there's actually quite a few of us, right? So the first step was to go back to redefining our purpose, right?

7:32And out of that, our positioning. And what we realize is first of all, is why do, why does anyone go to a wealth manager, right? Why don't you do stuff yourself? I mean, I went to the hairdresser yesterday. I didn't get my hair done myself. So why do you do that is because they're going to do a better job, right? And so they're, the expectation is of a client coming to a wealth manager is that they'll get more out of their money so they can get more out of their life. But then you could say that of every wealth manager. So what's really true and different about Rathbone? And, and I think I would, this was the hard part of the discovery, right it.

8:09But we, we are now the number one discretionary manager in the UK. We are one of the top three wealth managers. And So what do you and, and in really tapping into client colleague interviews and client interviews, like what's what was special about us? Is this pride of doing things well, this calling to high standards of quality, right. And so from that, the step into our new purpose was sort of a relatively easy 1. So our new purpose is to help more people invest their money well so they can live well. And that brings together what we do for clients, give more to them than what they can do on their own, but also this notion of operating to a high standard so that we can get our clients where they need to be when they need to be there and and make them successful in the long term. So from that, then you sort of think about, well, well, what does this mean in terms of how we show up and, and reigniting the pride in, in doing those things well. And, and, and that then drives a whole change agenda internally. How do you remove friction from the journeys, right? How do you become the best in

9:17the category by far? What does it mean to have the best app in the, in the industry? And we started off from the, the, the things that are easier to do. We looked at our visual identity. We said, well, that that doesn't kind of say any of the things that we want to be. And so we've, we've kept a lot of the things that, that were true about us visually as well as a brand and our brand codes. But we, we injected an element of energy and of difference.

9:42The cobalt touch. I, I live and breathe, right? And that becomes on the symbol of change, the symbol of invest well, live well. And how you then cascaded inside the organization and how you talk about it and how people take that and say, well, what does it mean for our sales standards, for our service standards? What does it mean in terms of our values? And and then it becomes a really generative change when the age of generative AI, I like to think about generative change as well, right? So you start from the top of the pyramid and then you let it cascade down.

10:14So we've got a lot of work happening. Some of it is already showing up in market in our website. Some of it is going to be a longer burn, but the organization now is in that heading towards that direction. We want to be the best by helping more people invest well so they can live well. Today's program is brought to you by two fantastic organizations. First up is Studio Space, A leading on demand marketing agency platform. Studio Space gives marketers complete control over their projects for matching the right agency to your brief, to managing contracts and invoicing, and even tracking all of your spend data, all in the one place. They take care of everything and it's totally hassle free. They even guarantee the work.

10:57So check out Studio Space today. Our second sponsor is the Marketing Skills Trust, a charity with a mission to make marketing a better place for everyone. They provide grants to help create a more equitable industry and support initiatives that really do Dr. diversity, inclusion and create opportunity. The Trust has been instrumental in levelling up the marketing skills across the board and do take a look at their website For more information. Now let's get on with the.

11:27Show love that and very on brand. I'm thinking the the only person who even came close was with Nicola Matthews where we had some like some Tony's chocolate on the on the table. But yeah, there you go incredibly on brand and the the thought of generative change you you said a couple of things that really caught my ear. Your answer to that question was like, like, let's go back to first principles and you started as a strategist and you talked about being a misfit. So you're a tiny bit unusual as a marketer because you probably start strategy first.

11:56So my question from that is how do you land the uncomfortable truth that a change of direction is required when there's all the vested interests and the assumptions and the, you know, all the history? How do you land big change into an organization? There is a, a, a combination as always, the art and the science, right? So I'm very data led and I really like to look at, well, what's the problem statement 1st and what does the evidence say about it? So I actually took a hard look at all of our brand metrics. I, I, I did a, a brand tracker.

12:36I looked at our growth metrics and I, I surveyed consumers from a qualitative perspective as well. And there were some very clear pointers about a, whilst we're a leader, our brand doesn't reflect our brand strength doesn't fully align and reflect that. B. The reason for that is we're not pressing the buttons that will get, you know, people to consider us right as a top brand. And the reason for that is how we're showing up on our website on our digital journey has a lot of bearing.

13:09And and so with the evidence, right? It's, it's your first, you build your case for change. And that's the consultant part in me, right? And then the other pieces, the is the tenacity around it, because there's a lot of people you need to influence and you need to kind of go back to re influencing the bringing them the art and the craft of the beauty of design, right? Whether it's a graphic design, it's experience design and, and showing what's possible. One, you can look different and then testing it with consumers and then saying, look, if we look like this, this is what's going to change.

13:46So really combining, you know, that creativity of, of being a marketer and then and, and an experienced person at heart with the rigor of the management consulting. So I'm really, really proud of having started my career there because it's given me quite a lot and I think it's actually very relevant. And I always think you have to surround yourself with the best expertise that you can. Because I wasn't born a marketer professionally, I always carry this sort of like, you know, the imposter syndrome, right?

14:15I always kind of think I was asking myself what, what do I not know that that a career marketer would, would know? And so I, I look to surround myself with internal and external talent, right? That you know that that can bring that, that that knowledge and expertise that doesn't necessarily, you know, belong to my past. Very good, very good. Now you talked about design a couple of times there. And in a way, wealth management is sometimes quite cautious by design.

14:44You know, it's, it's a regulated industry, there's a risk management management and so on. So how do you balance like you're ambitious versus there's, there's also like a sensible, you know, more moderate perspective. What's the what's the balance of those two things? It's, it's, it's really fascinating because actually what you want is in, in this industry that's consolidating and becoming more competitive, the companies that win have to show a good degree of organic growth.

15:11And that's the journey that we're on, on the back of our combination with investor wealth and investment. On the other hand, if you grow too fast, it can be a sign of not growing in the right way and you can end up in a place where you break the consumer trust. So how do you strike that balance? And I think that actually marketing and marketing disciplines bring rigor that's actually really in line without striking that balance. So because you go back again to the first principles, is my proposition, right, for the type of customers that I'm speaking to and that I'm trying to bring on board, if you're misaligned between your core proposition and the people you're prospecting to, then they're in like you've lost the battle already, right? So aligning who you go after with the proposition and the strength of the proposition you have is, is a fundamentally core good business principle because also meeting the expectation of the regulator, especially in these consumer duty days, right? The second thing that I'm a huge believer in when you have a, you have a number of routes to market. Part of my role is to enable my,

16:23my practitioner colleagues and give them content and give them collateral. But in the end, I'm, I'm really in enabling, in an enabling role. The other extreme of my role, I'm actually, you know, creating demand through digital prospecting, right? And, and gathering that demand through the website. And it would be very easy for me to say, well, I, I just generate the leads and I just pass them on. But I actually see it in my as my role to be to own that and oversee that end to end all the way into conversion, right?

16:56And so it in my books, there is no passing on you're accountable, right? You, you've brought that prospect into the franchise. You want to know the first human being they speak to, What does that conversation feel like, right? Is it in line with our brand principles or not? Is anybody saying the wrong things, right? Is everybody listening to what consumers are actually saying? And then doing something with that. So I actually am a huge believer in overseeing that route to market and to end even the pieces that don't report to me, right?

17:29I feel ownership of because that's the way that you can close the loop. And the third thing is having a culture of doing the right thing and actually doing the right thing is one of our 4th 4 values, which came out of the redefinition of our purpose. Because if you have a culture where people are empowered to do the right thing, then you, you sleep better at night. So for me, these three principles are, are really, really key too. And I think marketers have it in them of, you know, the proposition thinking and aligning the target market to the proposition, right? We take pride in, you know, in generating the man and in seeing, you know, seeing it all the way through. And I think that when you when you do the right thing by the customer, well that that sits at the heart of what we do and what we try to do so.

18:16I really resonate with the way you're describing those, those 3 core levers in areas. One of the, one of the things that strike me about your space, particularly when it comes to things like client acquisition, is that beyond the analogy, but ultimately you're fishing in a, in a relatively small sort of pool, ultimately, because they're selective customers, the customers that have a, a real, you know, bespoke set of needs and requirements given the given the wealth in which they hold.

18:47And I wonder therefore, and that's a, that's a blessing and a course because it's not a mass market element. It's so it's a very, very targeted endeavour. And I wonder if there's any advice you could give people who operate in similar industries, adjacent industries that have a very need for laser sharp targeting on their audiences. I mean, what advice would you give someone and be able to find those those pools of customers and then reach out to them?

19:10Yeah. So that is absolutely a fantastic point. The reality of the industry that I'm in and the client segment that I'm in is that is about at most half a million people in the UK that actually have a, they're our own target, right? And that doesn't mean that they're always the same half a million, right? And, and also defining people by the amount of money they have today is a very narrow definition of, you know, we are, we are people with life journeys, right?

19:46So we, we define them not only based on the money they have today, because we, we want to make sure we're relevant to them. If there isn't enough of them, a portfolio size, we can't serve them cost effective, but we can't add value enough, right? But people are on a journey and somebody who has half a million at the age of 30 is very different than somebody who has half a million at the age of 70 and is going to end up using it all. So the, you know, the best definition is really thinking about people in terms of the lifetime value, right?

20:13And also their attitudes. Are they people who are like very comfortable doing their hair themselves, right? Or they're very, you know, some people are delegators. So the first thing you need to do is a segmentation framework and a market sizing framework, right? And then you have to translate that into a set of data that helps with the targeting. And that's quite unusual for a wealth management firms, right? And this is where the combination of what I've done in my past days of what the investor combination brought to to Rathbund.

20:48We have a lot of that rigorous analytic definition and data sets that can help us with it. So we know what you know, we we know where we're sort of pointing our efforts. But I also believe that the brand has to be a brand that is exclusive in a way, but not excluding right. And it's it's like it took me 55 years to own and we Vuitton back right. But the the moment somebody said to me, well, we're going to give you a high, you know, a valuable gift. What would you like?

21:21That was the first thing that came to my mind and I never had bought it. And so your brand has to be in the mind of the customer well before they come into the category, right? And so you do your job, you're speaking to the the people who are in the category right now, but you're also sort of appealing to the people who aren't, but are very likely to be in the future, right. And so that's, that's the, the art here is to strike that balance between the here and now and building a brand that people look up to. And then when they are ready to come into the category, you're one of the first brands I think about. You have to give us an example or two about how you nurture new sort of people who are potentially going to come into your brand maybe even 5 or 10 years time. But still, as you say, you're taking a much more longer term focus.

22:08I mean, what kind of marketing activations would you do to try and keep those people salient when the moment comes? Like everyone at some point will have to confront the question of have I got enough money to retire on right? What does that look like for me? Am I saving enough today? Am I making the right investment decisions today? And so when you when you talk to your audiences about those those problems, right, those consumer problems, whether they are ready for you today or you're ready for them today or not, you're still giving something, right? And so really giving helpful content, right, whether it's a guide or it's a webinar.

22:52So one of the things we do is we do financial awareness courses for 16 to 25 year olds and that's a really long term nurturing, right? So being present in your communities, but physical community, our, our, our, our colleagues in the various offices do a lot of event activity and they do a lot of outreach in their communities, right. So you, you sort of give before you get, you become visible and relevant before you become needed. And so, and, and I think that, you know, the social media platforms are great, are a great thing nowadays. You know, 30 years ago this would have been much harder to do.

23:31But today you can be relevant to a lot more people, whether they're immediately in your in your target market or not. And that's what we do. That 16 to 25 year old activation is probably one of the best examples of iron sharpen mental physical availability to the widest possible market. So it makes me think, you know, the fundamentals of marketing don't really change, but the execution operationalisation of marketing is changing massively, Gen. AI, fragmenting media and so on.

23:59So I'm interested to know kind of from your view, what's the what's the best and worst of working marketing now, given that it's it's getting harder and more complex and more fast-paced to actually execute stuff? I think there's never been a better place to be marketing and that it was the best. It's the best of time and it's the worst of times, right? It's the best of times because with new technology come new opportunities, new possibilities, new learning, stretching your people and, and doing things differently. And so that that constant pressure you have on the budget, etcetera.

24:35Well, you, you have increasingly tools that can help you right, reach audiences more efficiently, become more productive. It's worse at times because everybody expects you to have done it yesterday. Like why are you not using chat 52 and as a? Leo's on Nano Banana and God knows what else you. Know absolutely right so so in a way, the the the tools of technology are there, but the ability to really bring them into the way you do business and you've got you know we're a regulated financial services business so we have to do this in the right way. People have a learning curve, right? And and so it really does stretch your brain and it does force you to always be on your tippy toes, right? To say what's next, what's next.

25:21But I guess it never gets boring. And that's why I love it, right? Slightly random question and I'm sort of guessing an answer might be wrong. If you weren't working in financial services, what are the sectors you'd really love to work in right now? And why? Gosh, I don't know. Actually, I think I love anything to do with consumers, with digital, with complicated, you know, with complicated regulations and with relationships and longer term relationships, right? So it'll probably be something like betting, right? And probably be something like utilities, right? So things that are regulated, that have longevity, that have a level of complexity and that have a retail consumer and a digital experience at heart.

26:11So those are the. Things again, that's the strategy, just putting you to something which is complex, nudely problem solving. Yes, I, I I think it's, it's such an interesting observation because Simonetta, I find that it or it feels like strategy sits in your DNDENA now given perhaps where, where and how you grew up in your career. And it actually makes me wonder if you think management consulting is a great starter for marketers. Not many marketers would necessarily start there.

26:45But given that you have, do you think it gives you a very unique vantage point and would you recommend it for other marketers at the at the beginnings of their careers? Yeah, absolutely. I think first of all, I don't think that management consulting is the only place that as a, as a person starting your career for just that rigorous problem solving, data, evidence based recommendation development and decision making. There are other places as well and some of the the great school of marketing in the P's and G's, the Unilever, etcetera. But definitely that.

27:18But I think management consulting is a fantastic, I think I think it was Mackenzie who had the strap line. If you work here, you can work anywhere. That was the employer value proposition. Like if you work here, you can work anywhere because the skills are so fundable. But absolutely, I think that it's it's a great starting point for many careers, including the marketing careers. You know, you, you, you, you alluded to at the beginning and perhaps why you decided to, to leave management consulting that you didn't feel it quite fit you. I love to explore that a little bit as to why you felt that you were, that you, you made the change in the pivot into marketing away from management consulting. What was perhaps the the nucleus of that? So for me what was always been really important is, is not just have the solving a difficult problem with data, but actually then seeing it implemented and seeing the business value come through.

28:11And as a consultant, especially as a junior consultant, you don't really get that right. And so I was feeling in fact you get a lot of varieties. So you go from A to, you know, client ABCD and sometimes often very rapid succession. And so I didn't feel I was developing that mastery and that craft and, and I wasn't staying enough to see the recommendations really adopted and, and the value delivered. And so I felt I was missing that. But I also always have a little bit of that like creativity and, you know, like getting to something in a slightly different way. I, I wasn't like that square peg in a square hole. I never been really.

28:50And so I didn't, I didn't feel like I, I had my career path assured because I saw that, well, the people who are making partner actually are, you know, are thinking this way and, you know, and they're all aligned and I didn't feel aligned. And you know, that feeling of being misfit is, it's not just with McKenzie, but even in larger corporate, I always felt a little bit like, you know, I, I have that need for intellectual independence and rigor and that doesn't always align well with corporate logic. So I took a risk.

29:19Actually, I, I left McKinsey without having a job. I joined startup.com land. I did a few months there and then the bubble burst and I had to go back and, and say maybe that wasn't the smartest career move in the short term, but I learned so much and, and, and it really, you know, it just opened up more opportunities for me than if I just stayed in a safe and comfortable place. You have to be a misfit, don't you? Because to align what a consumer wants and what the organization does, you know, there's always going to be a dissonance. And I'm reckoning you've got some top tips and tricks about how to stakeholder manage boards. You'd have done a fair bit of that. And many people listening in will be thinking about how the hell am I going to do that when I get there? Because that sounds a bit heavy.

30:06So what are some of your best learnings about getting, for example, you know, on the, I'm sure some board members would say brand redesign. What a waste of time. You know, how do you get people on board at board level? Yeah. So you first have to understand like, why does the board, what does the board want and why actually does, was the board supportive of a creation of a chief client officer, Right. And, and for me, there were three things that I, I identified that matter.

30:33The first thing was the organic growth agenda. And so I made it one of my, my, my 3 points in the agenda was, well, my, my mission is to help us be as good at organic growth as we have been at inorganic growth because that was like absolutely the top of the agenda. The second thing was actually a strong brand. The moment you actually share the data where your brand is at versus your size and how the brand is holding, potentially holding back the growth and our brand is just deferred growth, right? And you translate that is your short term growth. But if you want to grow in the long term, this is, it's like doing your accruals, right?

31:10You kind of convert your marketing. Our brand is just deferred growth. It's deferred growth. It may have been a throwaway line, but it's a it's a good one. It's a good one, yes. And then if you in a people business, if you want a strong brand, you have to have a culture that sort of delivers on it. And so your purpose and your values. And so my presentation to the board was like your short term growth, deferred growth is your brand and your your purpose and values and your people culture, right?

31:35Is your enabler of that. And of course, I don't own culture right. And I buddy partner with the chief people officer and with the execs in delivering that. But ultimately from a, what sits behind the culture of the employer brand, the employer value proposition and how it ladders up to the brand and what we delivered to clients to generate growth. That's all connected, right? And so, and, and then I actually did a, a crawl, walk, run and fly. One of my team members at Western Union used that framework to set out that the transformation journey can take time and your first year is going to be messy and you're going to deliver some results, but you're not going to do that efficiently.

32:14So I'm now we've now just almost concluded really, I think we're going from crawl to walk now this year, right? And, and the board loved hearing that and kind of it managed expectation on the pace, but it also put some real hard KPIs. I'm like, how, how do I know that I'm out of crawl and into walk? And then it's the measurement. You go back and you measure yourself against what you said you would have done very rigorously, very consistently. And then that discipline night, sometimes people associate the marketing function to all creativity and throwing petals and none of that rigor and accountability.

32:50So you've got to show the rigor, the accountability and the delivery and then that's how you get the support. Throwing petals? Not heard that one before, but I totally take the metaphor. You joinedthe.com boom 5 minutes before it burst. That must have been a bit of a kick where you don't want to get kicked. So how how did you? How do you dust yourself down when things don't go your way, bounce back, etcetera? It took me. It was a journey of leadership.

33:22Yeah, absolutely. Of leadership growth and maturity because obviously it's all I do prefer it when things go my way. But somebody said to me that there were two things that really stayed with me. The first one is if you're one step ahead of the market, you're a genius. And if you're 2 steps ahead, you're a fool. You try and drive too much change all at once, you lose. And then the other reframe was sometimes when you win, you lose and sometimes when you lose, you win, right. And so I always look for, OK, it feels like a set back and I feel like a loss, but actually what is the win that's going to come on the back of this?

34:02And, and a really interesting story when I was actually working on the rebound of even the renaming of Tony Smith and Williamson into Evelyn Partners and I had identified the name Evelyn and I knew my heart, heart. It was, it was right. It was like Tiffany. It was beautiful, elegant. It linked back to the heritage. It linked to our purpose and values, right. And I nearly had gotten it over the line when one of my business partners threw like her toys out of the pram and said absolutely not over my dead body. And my CEO basically said, we're going to go back to the naming round and we're going to find another name. And so it was just, it felt it was a really disheartening moment.

34:44But we went through that. We found another name and then we tested it. We tested it with colleagues, and colleagues hated the new name. Yeah. And then for me, the Reframe was understanding why it was originally rejected because while it was bold and it was beautiful, it didn't have enough gravitas for a professional services business. And so the inspiration there was what if we put the name partners with it and all of a sudden it's like giving somebody a first name and a last name and your last name gives you that gravitas. But you know, most of the time you operate on a first name basis, right?

35:20And so that was like a, a massive, massive comeback. So I've always kind of learned to look beyond the the loss, right? A short term loss can be a long term win. How do I get there? That's what I do. I'm banking there. If you're one step ahead, you're a genius. If you're 2 steps ahead, you're a fool. I'm putting that in the back pocket. I think that that was, that was that was absolutely brilliant. I really like these. I like these metaphors here.

35:45Let's come on to talk a little bit about the team and actually what I've what I've heard throughout the conversation is that you feel so strongly about the intersection between experience delivery and marketing. They kind of go hand in glove and in fact it's almost that your colleagues who sort of talk to your, you talk to your clients day in day out are really the ones who who are delivering that the the experience to them. Do you see them as a key lever within your marketing?

36:20Well, I mean, absolutely. At the end of the day, the brand is delivered through my colleagues and I, I, I need to make them proud of the brand. And, and that can be difficult sometimes because whenever you're driving change, it's change and you always have 1/3 of people who just love it and lap it up. You have 1/3 of people who are like absolutely resisting it, right? And then you have a third of people in the middle of like kind of indifferent in the client wants me here.

36:49They don't care about the brand, right? So you have to work really hard on it. And it's not just the upfront work. So when we, when we launched our new purpose and values, I spent so much time, we interviewed more than 90 colleagues and more than 30 clients. And then when I had the the final story, I spent time with key colleagues who I know were opinion leaders. And I sat down with them and I checked that what we were saying resonated in the hearts of hearts and the guts and the bowels of the organization, right. So starting from your people and, but it's not just once you launch, it's also, you know, there is always a, a risk of things getting undone.

37:33I remember when we launched the new name, even partners, even though colleagues have said, yeah, well, some colleagues, you can't speak to all of them, especially with a new naming project, it's quite confidential. But the moment went out, some of our competitors started taking the Mickey out of it and saying it's woke because Evelyn is, you know, gender neutral and it's a first name, it's a last name, it's a female name, it's a male name. And that's what we loved about and the versatility of it.

38:03But we did and that wasn't our press release in together with the story on our heritage. But competitors started taking the Mickey and our practitioners are very sensitive about what their peers and other competitors say, right. So that actually did undermine the confidence for a bit. But you kind of Fast forward, you know what, three years down the line, this is an incredibly well known noun and and respected name. And it's, you know, it's seen as a company that's going places. And and so, but you have that moment once you've launched a change where you know there's a confidence steps, you have to resell it.

38:41You have to continue to build that confidence in the change you've made over time. And then and then coming on to beyond the colleagues coming into your function specifically as, as you know, we all know only too well the transformation of our department is you know, is going through massive change. And I wonder to what extent you're seeing that in the way that you're organizing your team. What are the type of skill sets that you're looking for, have in the team or and what type of capabilities do you think are front and centre that they're going to hold you in good stead as you move forward? It's really interesting how that you need to put a lot of science and thinking on.

39:23The first thing is I always look at is what's our strategy, what's our growth strategy, what are our routes to market and how do I organize the team around that to deliver that. So the the first step for me is always a reflection on the operating model that we need. And, and then you look at the talent you have and you you assess it honestly, right. Some of your talent is really going to carry you 5 to 10 years from now. Some of your talent, you know, wanted to do what they were doing five years ago and they are no longer right for the mission.

39:57And some might actually grow into your next talent of the future. And so for me, it's, there was a big piece that it's not about the hard and technical skills, right? But it really is about the attitude, right? Somebody leading for the future. Are they leading for the present or are they leading for the past, right? So I, I tend to look a lot at that. And then obviously there is obviously the technical capability, right? And so you have to have people who are, you know, when you have specialist function, you have a UXUI design team, you have to have a really kick ass your design team.

40:30Otherwise you're not going to deliver on that change, right? And so it's for me it's less about the, they know we don't have TPC in house. So some skills I don't need to source internally in the team and I source them through my agency partners. But the mindset of delivering on our purpose, delivering on our growth agenda, delivering on our brand agenda. And then there, is there enough experience there, right? And can I develop people internally or do I need to actually bring that skill from the outside because we don't have it?

41:04And how do I strike that right blend between all of these things? So occasionally we'll bump into each other and industry events and you always look like you're having a good time and so on. But it strikes me, I think you're probably quite a good networker generally. So what? How have you got about curating a network for support, inspiration for learning? How's that part of the jigsaw puzzle come together for? You, you know, actually I haven't been a good networker because I, I tend to prefer few deep relationships.

41:36Like I'm much more of an introvert than people because I'm quite chatty and talkative and people think I'm, I'm an extrovert, but actually I'm quite the introvert in many, many ways. And so I tend to prefer a few deep relationships. And so I nurture, I nurture the relationships that are that, that give that depth, right? And so I have a few people, you being one of them, right? Ruth Saunders being another. I have a few people who are real rocks in my life, my professional life, that I turn to when I have a difficult question.

42:06And then for me, the Marketing Academy and the Marketing Society have been absolutely 2 fantastic platforms because the first part of my career was not only in strategy and product, but it was with American multinationals and global roles based in London. So for about half of my career I didn't really have a profile here in the Uki didn't have a community. And so I worked really hard to build that right. And I made a commitment to being more UK based in terms of my roles.

42:36And and and little by little patiently, I've been collecting those, those people that are the few and really important and then broadening my network based on based on their on their support. So shout out to Ruth Saunders. Now you've you've got your executive responsibilities, but I also know you have non executive responsibilities. You've had side hustles. So tell us a bit about the balance of their what you give and get from the non executive side. So in, in 2016 is when I started my career as a non exec and I joined first I joined at the same time the Western Union Foundation as and that was a governance and non exec role. And then I joined the Surrey Business School Advisory Board as a, as an advisory rather than a supervisory board. And then in 2018 I joined the board of Bruin Dolphin, which was at the time of AT250.

43:32And that's actually what started my career in wealth management, believe it or not, right. And I think that there is a, it's a tremendously complementary experience to being an executive. And I think if you have that one non executive role alongside your executive experience, it makes you a better executive. So the non exec, the governance non exec for me is, is a professional development, is preparing the next stage of my career, but it's also learning to be a better executive. And the Advisory Board is really the giving back, giving back to the community and, and being of help and support. And particularly in education, it's, it's very rewarding. And I think what you also learn by being on a board is how you interact with the board as an executive, right? And somebody said to me, the art of the non exec is to keep stick your nose in, but keep your fingers out. And then that's, that's a real pivot. And when you go from your first exec, your exec role to your first non exec role, you really are tempted to give a love it a lot of advice and give a lot of answers and solutions to the executives.

44:44But you have to respect that they've got their own independence and and you're the art becomes one of becoming a good prosecutor, asking the right questions persistently and doggedly. And so that is a real shift in mindset. And I really recommend it because it it's very formative you. You demonstrated perfectly why side hustles make you better in your core job, I think. Nice. So then in terms of, I suppose your leadership beliefs, what, what would you say have been the constants in the way you because you've moved through different functions from strategy to marketing and so on. What are the leadership beliefs that have been constant all through your career?

45:21Well, this is an example of how the side hustle makes you better because I was asked to do a graduation speech for at Surrey Business School. And I thought like, you know, what's my soapbox? What's my life soapbox? What do I tell people who are just starting their career to inspire them? And it made me think a lot about what's what's been true for me. And the first thing I would say is first, always believe in yourself. And this is really hard earned for some people.

45:50Like for some people, they are naturally confident and some people always carry that insecurity with them. And I've, I've always been in that second camp. And I realized that that what that really was is my desire to learn the things that I didn't know and, and, and, and, but I was letting me, letting it crush me, right? So I always reframe a failure into a learning, right? That's how you, you develop that confidence, right? And be confident that you can achieve what you want if you go at it with intent. So then obviously the second one has to be always keep learning, right?

46:23And it's not just because it, it makes the failures more, more survivable and livable, but also because genuinely, if you don't, if you don't learn, I just had, you know, the conversation about how the world changes around you and particularly in a, in a marketing job. So you always have to keep learning. And so then I say, well, in, if you always believe in yourself and you always keep learning, you can be anything you want, right? And I always say in a world where you can be anything you want, be kind, right? And I think being smart is a gift, but being kind is a choice.

46:56And sometimes you, you focus too much on your career achievement and what goes on your CV and you don't focus on off on the impact you have on the people that work with you. And at the end of the day, that's how you'll be remembered, right? So those are my three things. So what a lovely way to finish this interview here today. It's been such a delight having you on. Thank you for sharing your insights. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.