Snowball - Episode 7: The Morning After

0:15Speaker 1:Pushkin.

0:20Speaker 2:If you're landing here for the first time, best to go back and start this story at episode one.

0:27Speaker 3:It's the morning after I found my brother's ex wife, Leslie in a Californian car park. How'd you sleep, Simon? And I wake up in a cheap motel.

0:39Speaker 4:No crazy dreams last night.

0:41Speaker 3:The bed sheets are thin and crumple like crepe paper. We're still buzzing out.

0:46Speaker 4:It's more of a crazy dream all day, really, eh.

0:50Speaker 3:We lie there debriefing my chat with Leslie?

0:53Speaker 1:How are you.

0:54Speaker 2:Feeling about what you said now?

0:55Speaker 4:As in like I was kind of convinced, and well, I wasn't convinced, but I definitely yeah, yeah, I'm not conned. I'm not convinced, but I do. I did feel sorry for Leslie, and I felt that there was genuine sadness and maybe even a touch of remorse from her side of things. But having slept on it, even just for a few hours, I think that her sadness and her remorse is like I think she recognized that her life is not what she wanted it to be, or even perhaps what it could be, and she kind of like looked up at me like almost like you know, she was going, please, don't make me face all of this stuff.

1:55Speaker 4:And I think what I was feeling is I felt bad for doing that.

2:05Speaker 3:Am I just being charmed like everyone else in this story? From the brief chat I had with Leslie, it's hard to tell I'd left her with the plan to meet up and go through everything in detail. If we can sit down and talk, I won't have to rush through my questions. Maybe I can get her to talk about what she really meant when she said things weren't totally kosher, and instead of going slowly, I can just straight up ask her if she did stuff like inventor fake lawyer Eric t Weiss to fool people. If she can really answer it all of this stuff, she'll turn up. So I sent Leslie a text suggesting that we meet up at the Starbucks near the supermarket she works at, and she's just sent me a text back. So here it is, Hi, Ollie, and good morning. It was really good to see you too.

3:02Speaker 3:I hope you understand. All the things you asked about is all ten plus years ago, and I have moved on from all of it, and so has my parents. Okay, Cameron's story is actually from about six years ago. But anyway, I appreciate you want both sides, but in all fairness, you should have reached out way before. Twelve years later. I am past all the pain, lies, deceit, and loneliness my decisions have created for me, and I've laid it all to rest. I really have thought long and hard through the night and decided that I do not wish to bring it all back. I wish you all the best, Ollie, and good luck with all your ventures. Hmmm, so I guess that's it. We won't be seeing Leslie again. For the final episode of the season of Unravel, I'm Ollie Ward's and this is Snowball. I wasn't really in the mood for asking any more questions, but we had already planned one more stop on our road trip, a beautiful beachside town just down the road where Leslie had worked.

4:21Speaker 3:When we got there, Simon had a beer in the bar and told some people why we were in town. Word went round, and then a lady approached me. She said she had known Leslie.

4:31Speaker 5:Oh, yeah, we were very close. Actually you can be to her.

4:35Speaker 3:Yeah, okay. She had all the familiar stories about Leslie, having tall tales of successful international restaurants and a trust fund. But to be honest, I was over it. More of the same wasn't going to help me understand everything. Then, just as we were wrapping up, she said something that really hit me. I might just grab it.

5:00Speaker 4:So can you just say that again?

5:01Speaker 5:She was homeless for a time for most of the time she was working here this last time because she slept at the campgrounds. And she's because I helped her remove a camper to the campground and she slept in the back of her car. And then she slept over at a hotel because I remember going over there and having pizza with her, and so I know she didn't have a place to live here.

5:22Speaker 3:It's really sad.

5:23Speaker 4:Yeah, And why was she sort of homeless if she had a job here and was working.

5:30Speaker 6:I don't know.

5:30Speaker 5:She was always looking for a place.

5:33Speaker 3:As I walked back to the hotel room, I turned my recorder on. That doesn't make me feel good, like nobody should be homeless. I feel sad that Leslie's going through her life, going from opportunities and circumstances like living in Medicana in New Zealand, right down to sleeping in her car, maybe in a beautiful place, but nobody deserves to be homeless. And I just really hope that, I don't know, something can jolt out of this, because she's not winning out of any of us. When Simon came back, I told him what I had found out. The saddest thing was she said that when Leslie was here, she was homeless.

6:23Speaker 2:Shit that sucks. Just ed like I just, you know, we were saying kind of like this kind of existence must be traumatic and fucking sad and just torrible and just kind of like, yep, I'm not surprised when you say that, Like my heart sinks a little bit. I'm like, fuck, you don't really wish that kind of shit on anyone, even if they've kind of done you wrong and stuff like, I don't know, like that's sad, that's sad, you know what I mean.

6:55Speaker 3:I guess I thought this whole thing was going to wrap up neatly like a movie. Being in America, running around doing this investigation, it often feels like I'm in a movie, the car, the accents, So I was kind of expecting all my questions answered and tied up in a pretty bow. Instead, things feel complicated. I didn't expect to end up feeling sorry for Leslie, but I kind of do. She has brought a lot of this on herself. It's just her situation. I kind of feel sorry for some of the people that she hurt took years to recover, but they're all mostly back on their feet. It's Leslie that seems to be in this cycle of starting over again with nothing. If it turns out Leslie's biggest victim is herself, then why would she keep the cycle going.

7:55Speaker 3:That's what still doesn't make sense to me. But then I remember something that came up when I spoke to the psychologist Maria Konnikova. What motivates the con Because in our case, Leslie didn't get away with a whole lot of money.

8:10Speaker 7:And that is not at all uncommon. I think it's a huge misperception among the public that con artists are motivated by money. I really think that's not it at all, because for the most part, con artists don't make a lot of money and are incredibly intelligent and could have made much more money in more legitimate professions, and so I don't actually think it's about financial gain at all. I think that why they do it is power. They're motivated in the sense of power over other people, control over other people's lives, the idea that they're shaping other people's reality in a way that they want to shape it.

8:48Speaker 7:This is something that can be incredibly intoxicating. And I think that that feeling of power is actually one of the reasons that con artists are more often than not, and by more often than not, I mean, like you, over ninety percent of cases, true con artists are repeat defenders, and given the opportunity to go straight, so to speak, they don't take it. They can't take it, even though they say they will, and the will and they want to, because they're always driven back to that and they are unable to let go of that rush of power over other people. I mean, it is intoxicating if you think about it. You're playing god, You're controlling other people's lives, You're crafting their realities. You're creating entire worlds, and people believe.

9:29Speaker 3:You creating entire worlds like the world of Eric t Weiss. Leslie could control all of that. Maybe that's what this was about, not money, but a feeling of control, a feeling of power. Oh and remember what Leslie said about putting me in touch with Eric.

9:51Speaker 5:Like I said, I haven't talked to him in a couple of years, but I can give you the last known number for him.

9:54Speaker 7:I'd be happy to no problem.

9:58Speaker 3:I followed up over text and asked Leslie for Eric's number. She never gave me one, So I guess that means that her old mate, Eric t weiss Esquire will be lost to her story fictional history. That leaves one more question that's been on my mind all along. It might be the most troubling question of my investigation. Where to Leslie's parents fit in.

10:27Speaker 7:We'll be right back.

10:30Speaker 3:Doctor Kannakova doesn't know Leslie or her parents, but she said something that gave me a new perspective on what it might be like to be in their position.

10:40Speaker 7:Oftentimes, you know, people like the parents aren't in on the con as such, but they've been deceived. You have to remember, they've been living with a con artist for their for the entire life of that con artist, and it's their daughter, So you have an emotional involvement. And if you who are you know? Who didn't know Leslie when she was younger and had no kind of family or blood ties initially, If you were able to be pulled into her web. Just imagine how difficult it is if you're related to her, if you have kind of the closest relationship of all, I think it could be incredibly difficult. And I think that those are families are often the biggest victims of con artists, and we'll defend their children, will defend their loved ones to the end.

11:26Speaker 3:I did try to speak with Leslie's parents, Betty and Andrew.

11:31Speaker 1:At the towne.

11:32Speaker 8:Please leave a message for.

11:35Speaker 4:This is Betty.

11:36Speaker 8:We're not available right at the moment.

11:38Speaker 7:Please leave a message.

11:40Speaker 8:Record your message at the towne.

11:43Speaker 4:Hi, Betty, it's Ollie Ward's here. You might remember me, Gregg's little brother. I'm sure Leslie has told you that I am reporting a story just regarding.

11:55Speaker 3:I also emailed them and sent them a letter. No response. Leslie might have told them not to talk to me. After some friendly texts back and forth with Leslie, things had turned sour. Started to find out how many people we had spoken to for this podcast, and in particular in that last town we went to. Leslie heard that we had mentioned some of the allegations about her to some people at her old work, and she was not happy. About it.

12:25Speaker 4:Okay, A text message has just come in from Leslie after not hearing from her for a little while. Um, she says, lose my number. A journalist doesn't slander a person's character at their old workplace. This is not a story for your podcast. This is revenge trip. So fucked Ollie. After all these years, you reach out to me or my parents, ever, and I will file a restraining order against you, Simon and whoever else. I need to.

12:51Speaker 2:Restraining orders on us and everything. Now.

12:52Speaker 3:Of course, you know heavy, oh Man, cheaper is What Leslie didn't know was that revenge couldn't have been further from our minds. When I set out on this trip, I wanted to understand what happened and to get Leslie's side of the story. It was important to get her response to people all over the world saying she had conned them. But at the end of our trip, I've realized Leslie isn't some sort of two dimensional movie villain. She's a complex person with motives. Maybe she doesn't even fully understand, and maybe the person who has suffered the most from what Leslie has done is Leslie herself. So I don't feel vengeful. I just feel sad, sad for Leslie, sad for everyone who felt deceived and devastated by her, and sad for my brother Greg. I didn't know if Greg would react like I did, so I told him that Leslie might have been homeless.

14:03Speaker 8:It's hard to feel sorry for someone when they clearly have choices. And the thing with Leslie is she's had lots and lots and lots of choices. So her being homeless supposedly that's bad, but that will be a consequence of her actions, which will have affected lots of other people around her, who let's call them the victims, So that drops my sympathy down quite a few notches.

14:39Speaker 3:Around that time when Leslie might have been homeless, Greg had got himself back on his feet.

14:44Speaker 8:So where I did get to was a lucky place. I have a beautiful, highly supportive, intelligent wife, and we have a pretty magical young daughter, and then we live in a beautiful suburb. I've got a good job that provides for us, and all of the good things are ahead of us in life.

15:14Speaker 3:As for my mum and dad, they were mostly able to move on too, and in case that happened after Leslie left New Zealand. Mum and dad sued the lawyer who worked on the Dragonfly deal. The matter was settled before it went to court. I can't say much about it for legal reasons, but it worked out that Mum and Dad were able to get enough money to buy a home of their own again. Dad had to go back to work. But after a few years of tough times, my parents got back to being happy where they are.

15:43Speaker 3:They even reflect on some good that came out of everything.

15:48Speaker 9:And now we honestly have moved on and don't really think about that time much at all. It was a very proops almost you could say, another defining moment for our family. I think in many ways it brought us all together, not that we were apart, but it spu sputted us in pretty well.

16:15Speaker 1:Actually, for me, it's a gratitude. It's nothing to do with her. It's how loved and cared for that we are, that so many people cared for us, for the immediate family. They were so amazingly brilliant, and you three for sticking with it and holding us up. And at least we've got something to talk about at dinner parties, so they're not entirely free of us, not.

16:59Speaker 9:That we talk about it now at dinner parties.

17:02Speaker 1:We don't have dinner parties.

17:04Speaker 6:We're too old.

17:06Speaker 3:And like he always does, my brother Simon and sums it up for us.

17:11Speaker 2:I'm actually really proud of us through it as well. I don't know, like a big thing of this was just how you know, and I always I always repeat it, but kind of I don't. The reason that I don't feel angry with her or kind of forgiven her is just because of how close it made us, you know, we changed as a family through this, and so yeah, so I just yeah, I'm just I love look of you guys came out of it.

17:35Speaker 5:Yeah.

17:38Speaker 3:For almost a year now, I haven't been able to talk to my family without it being about this podcast. I'm looking forward to going back to talking about the usual stuff like how to turn the video on.

17:49Speaker 6:Here we go. Ollie wants to connect with you on Skype, except well, well we've got contact. Yeah, so hear me, can't see me. I can see you.

18:01Speaker 3:And hear you, and I need to call Greg Moore. I don't catch up with my brother nearly enough. This whole thing has been a good reason and for us to talk for me to understand something so profound in his life. But it's been hard sometimes to draw a line between my brother and the story I'm trying to tell. One time Greg called me and he started to cry. He was telling me about how he still feels pain from what happened. Part of my brain was thinking, I need to record this, call him back with the recorder on.

18:36Speaker 3:But the rest of me was thinking, my brother is upset right now, and I need to be there for him. You didn't hear that call because I stayed on the line with him. To Greg, I'm not a journalist reporting his story. I'm his brother. The story started with him, and it needs to end with him. I asked Greg to think about what he's taken away from this whole experience.

19:05Speaker 8:The important things are the things that are pretty close to you, like family and friends and what can fulfill you and make you happy. A lot of those things are actually right in front of most people right now. Things like being able to wake up on our weekend and walk your daughter down to the local school so she can play on the playground. You don't need to have a Ferrari to drive her there. It didn't need to be a life in the fast lane. The good life is hopefully what most people can get, and that is living on a regular street, doing regular things and working hard for them. I think that's what it comes down to, and there's a beauty simplicity that's hard to replace with money and possessions they ultimately don't really satisfy.

20:29Speaker 8:I don't think what really matters was always here and it was actually right in front of me.

20:56Speaker 3:I really hope you've enjoyed coming along for this ride. You can find a bunch of extras, including a feature article and the video of my confrontation with Leslie, at the ABC's Unraveled True Crime website. You can hit me up on Instagram at Ollie Ward's and if you share this story, please use the hashtag Unravel true Crime roll. The credits music Snowball is hosted and produced by me Ollie Wards. Big love to my brother Greg and my entire family for letting me tell this story, and thank you so much to the awesome team I got to work with, including Unravel's supervising producer Tim Roxborough, audio producer Emma Lancaster, fact checking and additional audio production from Shane Anderson, sound designers John Jacobs and Tim Jenkins, the biggest of US to flight facilities for our themes on additional music Bryce Halliday. Unravel is a product of ABC Audio Studios, led by Kelly Reardon and Unravel's executive producer is Ian Walker.

23:01Speaker 5:Why wait wait wait wait wait wait, You'll never really know what was real or not