Ep. 284 I How to Fund a Documentary Without the Industry

0:00[Jonathan de Jong] My mother said to me: Jonathan, dementia is worse than death. Don't make a film about dementia. It will ruin your career. We made dementia sexy. [Christian Taylor] Ha ha. [Jonathan de Jong] That sounds crazy, because that's exactly what I said to Teun when I met him. I said, we have to make dementia from dementia, we have to make it Coca-Cola. And he was laughing as well. He said, Jonathan, don't say crazy things. But I said, we have to approach it like it's Coca-Cola.

0:23We have to share the happiness. We have to share the good stories. We have to share the good examples in order to get a relief that people want to talk about it. [Documentary First title card] [Christian Taylor] If you've ever wondered how to tackle international production or shoot in 11 countries all over the world, or work inside medical facilities or schools, or actually think outside the box for funding, or become one of the most-watched human interest documentaries in Dutch history, well, you've come to the right place.

0:53I have a show for you. I'm Christian Taylor and this is Documentary First, the podcast where we talk about the craft, business, and the truth about filmmaking. Today I'm happy to have Dutch filmmaker Jonathan de Jong join me all the way from the Netherlands to talk about his film, Human Forever. Welcome, Jonathan. [Jonathan de Jong] Thank you for having me. It's exciting to be here. [Christian Taylor] Yeah, it's really nice to have you. Jonathan is the founder of SUPER7EVEN Productions.

1:17You told me earlier before we started rolling that you had always wanted to do film, but I think your parents made you have a real career first. [Jonathan de Jong] Yes, yes, exactly. Now my big dream was always to become a filmmaker. But then my family advised me differently to say like choose a studies where you earn a bit of money, a bit more a safer choice. so I I I went out and studied law, but I never did anything with it. and I'm really happy about it because now I follow my dream and became a independent filmmaker.

1:50[Christian Taylor] That's great. So you're telling me you didn't go to film school? [Jonathan de Jong] No. No, I'm a grassroots filmmaker. I'm a natural born storyteller that I believe. in everything that I do, I I I see stories. I'm curious by nature. and what I say, like I I often believe I see the world differently than the people around me and I really want to yeah, connect people to my world because I think it's a it's a really nice world that that I'm living in.

2:17[Christian Taylor] I agree with you. How did you become a filmmaker then? How do you learn? I mean, it it's a complicated field. You've become successful. [Jonathan de Jong] Absolutely. Absolutely. Because of course I think a lot of people have a dream to enter the film world and especially when you have a different degree, like I can't be there and say like, Yeah, I I study law, now I want to be a director and everybody's like, Yeah, Jonathan of course. So I had to start out at at the bottom, as assistant producer on the set and work my way up as a researcher because I want to say like I I think I think I'm more focused on becoming a film director in the end so I really want to know about how how to create a film and then I can I could create like more shorter f films and television formats.

3:03And finally, because my mouth was too big and I like, I have a dream, help me out. I I came across a very famous documentary filmmaker from the Netherlands and he told me, Jonathan, there's only one solution. If you want to be out there as as a grassroots filmmaker, you have to make something yourself. Like there's no other option. so yeah, but I thought like this is a big disappointment because I I thought he would help me out. And he said, like, no, no, no, no, no. It's not possible because th this world is so small.

3:31you have to really show them what you can do and show them your feathers, like who you are as a filmmaker. So when I had the chance and I w when I grew a bit had had had a bit more experience in the film world, I really knew like this is my shot. when I heard about place where people were living with dementia, but they were treated completely differently, like a very on a very humane way. And it resonated with me because during my college, when I studied law, I was a bus driver for the daycare in a nursing home.

4:03And then I came across dementia, the field of dementia and the people who are living with it. And it was such a shock for me that you could also end up like this, because I knew that you can grow old, but In a way like this, I never imagined myself to be in a closed ward, sitting at a table, watching Animal Planet all day. like and it's that's not the standard, but it it really made me feel sad that we didn't talk about it. And especially when I talk with the people who are so loving and so kind, and of course I saw also different kind of symptoms.

4:34But the majority of my time spending with them was such a nice, nice, nice way of living. And I've really felt for them to say, like, hey, how can I make your life a bit better? And they just just said to me, Just be Jonathan, just bring your outside stories to our home and just have a talk with us because that's all we need in order to have a sense of belonging. And then I always took it with me. And then when I became a filmmaker and when I saw the place where they had a such a radical different Way of approaching people. Really, as a human being, I thought, like, I have to make a documentary about this care farm because it was a care farm in the Netherlands. I did it with two good friends of mine.

5:13and yeah, it it it became a big success in the Netherlands, and then I thought, like, follow your passion, this is my way, and then I did a documentary on a Dutch superstar who was dealing with depression, so always social relevant stories, but I really Yeah, approach them in a way that it's for a big audience. Like I I make big stories small and I always let them resonate on a human level. And I think that's really important in our time in speaking the language of nowadays that we shouldn't address serious subjects on a serious way only, because the majority of the people will have to deal with it and and we also should speak their language.

5:53So I think That was my mission to really make impact with social relevant stories and and yeah, also approach them my films like this. so really start thinking about it while filmmaking. [Christian Taylor] So what was your very first film called? [Jonathan de Jong] I Couldn't Care Less, like, "care less", that was the the frame because it was a documentary series. and my first feature film was "Fred: The Other Side" and that was of course about his other side.

6:22but the film that I'm most known for is Human Forever, who featured in 2023 on a G20 summit. [Christian Taylor] And it was of course a a nice, nice platform to to start your film. [Jonathan de Jong] Yeah, for sure. especially because we want to bring a more nuanced story about Dementia to the world stage. So it was a big, big journey to come finally at the G20 summit, but we kept dreaming, we kept believing, and we kept manifesting it by creating a an army of ambassadors around us who believed in our story around Dementia.

6:55[Christian Taylor] Yeah, and that's what we're here to talk about, "Human Forever" You This is a film that it's a human interest story that garnered the largest audience in Dutch history. And this is part of your vision for your films, which is you don't really need to make a film unless you are serious about people seeing it. So how do you Yes. go about creating an audience for your film and making sure that people see it? [Jonathan de Jong] Yeah, it's it's often not a popular opinion, but I really approach my films also as a product because I'm an independent filmmaker, I'm a director at heart, I'm a creative person at heart.

7:32So of course I want to create the best possible film always, but I also have to think about as an entrepreneur because if nobody's gonna watch my film I will be out of business very soon. So I don't think it's it's a bad thing to think about it. On the other hand, I like the the opposite, I think. I think it's the only way to to to approach a film is to see like, hey, this is the subject. Who is my audience? How can I approach them? How can I get them ready in order because there there there are ten thousands of films coming out every year?

8:07How can I make myself been seen in this world that is so fast? And also When you're having a story about a social relevant topic, people need to get ready beforehand and not like when you're creating the film, say like, hey, good luck with it. I hope somebody will pick it up and hopefully it will become a success. When I started the film six years ago, I thought about it every step of the way. How do I get people ready? And along the way I saw we created a lot of ambassadors along the way, and there's ambassadors from politics, from media, from social influencers, from the the sector about dementia.

8:47We all reached out to them, said like, Hey, we're busy with a different narrative around dementia. You really should see it. And then first they said, like, nah nah nah, no time. And they said, Yeah, yeah, yeah, you really have to watch it. And then we shared bits and pieces of it too throughout all our channels, throughout social media. I focused and invested a lot of time in the in the main character, Teun Toebes, a young nurse who entered a nursing home when he was 21 years old.

9:12And also it was really important to make him a bit more famous because he needs to be more famous if nobody sees him or or believes him, then the film has no point at all. Like, why is he the main character? Like the big why was also focused around him. So We invested a lot of time to make him a key opinion leader in the field of dementia. And that also really worked out because when a film really came out, when it premiered, people knew him. So we wrote a book, became a worldwide bestseller.

9:42Of course, that's that's very convenient. We created a theater show where a lot of people in the Netherlands came to the show and we had discussions with them. So we grew our audience while we were filmmaking and the film was actually the the cherry on top. [Christian Taylor] Yeah, so you really created your audience, is what you did. You created it before you ever released the film. Now you said you created a theater show. What did you mean by that?

10:08[Jonathan de Jong] Yeah, like based on the book, we created a show of nineteen minutes as well. When we released the book, there was also a bit of resistance. People said like, yeah, it's such idealistic book. Of course it can be different with dementia, but how like we don't believe it that that we can change, It was so helpful in shaping the more nuanced story about dementia, because also when you talk with them, they get more understanding, they get more awareness of all the possibilities that we already saw around the world while filming and that we could share with them directly in our conversations.

10:39Then we saw that people were really opening up and they say, like, there is a different way, and it it is really possible. yeah, but then we're hungry for a different story. So it was really helpful for me as a storyteller. What is the focal point on which I have to connect in order to make people more open minded about a different story around dementia? So it was really a more deepening from the book that we wrote, but also it was a good preparation for the film that was coming out. Like where are the points that were people are really resilient and more resistant in accepting the message or where do they really thought like, hey, this is this is the way to go?

11:15[Christian Taylor] When you say theater show, was more like a live conversation, more like you would have a panel [Jonathan de Jong] No, no, it it it you would was really an artistic way where Teun, the main character of the of the film, was taking people on a journey yeah. [Christian Taylor] You created a play. [Jonathan de Jong] Yeah, a play, [Christian Taylor] Oh my word! [Jonathan de Jong] Yes, yeah. [Christian Taylor] So you And yeah, wrote a book, you created a play, and you would ha would you have [Jonathan de Jong] we we turned social media around like with 80,000 followers for him worldwide, in the in the sector, so on LinkedIn it was really important.

11:43Who are ready for a different narrative around dementia. I think it's really important if you want to have sustainable success or sustainable impact, that your target audience is in every possible vein of the society. So we really were focusing on who do we need in order to really get a movement going because that's that's the big goal. To change a policy through filmmaking, to change the sector through filmmaking, to change the perceptions of dementia in everyday households, in everyday people's lives, with creating a film and that really, really worked out because we were so carefully planning and getting all those connections together before the film was released.

12:21[Christian Taylor] Well how in the world did you do that financially? All of that costs a lot of money. It cost money to make a book, it cost money to travel, it cost money to put on a theater show. How in the world were you [Jonathan de Jong] Yeah. [Christian Taylor] able to finance all of that? [Jonathan de Jong] The finance way was of course the most difficult way. When we started out, the government heard about our plans of creating a film and they said, like, hey, we're gonna organize G20 Summit around dementia.

12:48Maybe it's a good thing that we premiering this film, but we were like, Yeah, Let's go for it. And they wanted to pay for it as well. And then COVID came and there was a big scandal in the Netherlands, with mouth masks. I don't know. It it's the Ministry of Health said we have to pull back all financing on all the other projects that we are doing today. And we were already two and a half years underway. So it was almost the end of my production company.

13:12because I invested hundreds of thousands of euros into the film already that I took from personal money from other projects that I did before or loans, all those kind of things in order to finance the film because I knew the government will pay so I'm okay. And then it wasn't okay And that was the biggest hit that we took in our journey. but then we said, like, hey, we can go into lawsuits, nobody will be happy about it. if this is the case, what can we do in order to survive?

13:41So we also asked the people from the governments like, Hey, what can we do differently in order to save us? Because else we will be in the gutter. Please help us out. And they said, like, we're gonna do the G20 Summit because that's really what I was thinking about. That would be a catalyst for for the rest of our impact campaign. So they said like yeah we're gonna do it and we're gonna ask some social relevant foundations, some social society companies like to help you out with a bit of money.

14:08So we raised a bit of money through multiple organizations and foundations in order to finish the film but we were deep in the red numbers when we came out but then yeah finally the universe repaid us with a big success because of course along the way we also invested All the money that we earned from the book, we invested in our film. All the money that we earned from the theater show, we invested in our film. Because we really had all the balls on the film, all the eyes. Like we we we that was the main goal, bringing the film out because we really felt that would be the biggest change.

14:44Because the book is nice, but people are still doubting because they don't see it. Theater show, we can talk with them, but they don't see it. But when a film comes out and he's then and the film shows really hopeful initiative that it's can be done differently, then people have no choice about saying then the change has already begun. So yeah. But it was a it Yeah, so was a big struggle, yeah. [Christian Taylor] Yeah, so Let's talk about what you see in the film.

15:08I watched the film last night. Incredibly moving. It was very relevant and touching to me. I've shared this before on some podcasts, but my father is 82 years old and he does suffer from dementia. I'm his primary caregiver. My sisters visit and help, but I I do most of the care and he lives in Mississippi and I'm in Illinois. So I care for him long distance, but am very involved and it is a challenge every day. And so watching your film, there were so many emotions flooding from the very beginning. And one of the things that I appreciated about it was how you started the film. This film is very slow and quiet.

15:56So it welcomes you into the experience. You are a a a silent partner on this journey and you are just drawn in by what is happening because everything is extremely intimate between Teun and the individuals in the film that he is engaging with and the premise is he is a this young 21 year old man, he's a nurse who goes and lives in these nursing homes and he is traveling around all over the world to see how care, dementia care is done in different places.

16:30The next thing I felt, seeing all these different things is this is exactly the struggles that I have. If in a perfect world I would have my father come and live with me, I would care for him because there's always this guilt that I'm not caring for my own father in my own home. But It's impossible. He's a big, strong man. He was a flight risk. There is, I'm a woman and he doesn't really listen to me. There's all of these other issues that I was facing at the time when I had to make decisions.

17:02So watching your film, it's it's hard not to come face to face with a lot of those things. You did a beautiful job of not making people feel guilty about any of their choices. What you did was show different ways all over the world how people are addressing dementia care and the positive ways actually that different countries are doing things. And you ask questions about how can we do this better. And so what I loved was that [Jonathan de Jong] From non Western perspective, especially because during the research I heard from so many countries, why are you coming to visit us?

17:42Because the Netherlands is the best country in the world when it comes to healthcare. And I always ask, like, why do you think it's the best country in the world? Because you spend so much money and look so wealthy and people are have their own rooms with their own flat screen televisions and I was like, But do you think the people who are living inside the institutions, inside the nursing homes, think the same? That's exactly the focal point of the documentary.

18:05The Netherlands, they spent one of highest amounts on healthcare. But still we can't buy happiness. [Christian Taylor] You have a Dutch accent, and I do not want our American audience to miss that. You said "You can't buy happiness" And that is a very good point. That's all throughout life, especially in dementia care. So you cannot buy happiness. And what you mean by that is that in the Netherlands, where you spend all of this money, you found people who still felt lonely.

18:38Isolated and unhappy even though they had big screen TVs or a beautiful location. [Jonathan de Jong] Mm-hmm. Yeah, and the most important thing is like we don't we didn't create it with bad intentions, like our healthcare system. The opposite, we created with good intentions in order to make people happy. But we forgot along the way to ask people, do you want this? Are you happy with this? And our film is exactly this. We asked people living with dementia, what does a good quality of life mean for you?

19:11And how can we facilitate it if we start to listen to you? And I think that's the opposite of how we organizing lives of people and are taking over the lives of people living with dementia after they get diagnosed. Because that's what people told me during the research. "Jonathan. Dementia, the diagnosis or the condition is not the worst. It's how society treats us. We feel after the diagnose, we feel ashamed for the 10-15 years that maybe that we are living.

19:39People are disconnecting to us because they are afraid or they don't know how to deal with us. And that really makes us feel that we don't belong to anything anything or anybody anymore." And to have and to have a sense of not belonging. I think this is the most dangerous thing when it comes to life, because then people feel like life is no point at all of living. So that's that's really what we felt throughout the research but also throughout filming in multiple nursing homes around the world.

20:09So with that urgency in order to really see the people behind the patient or behind dementia, that gives us so many hopeful examples around the world how we can include them and make make them feel belong again to the community where they were living. And so there are so many hopeful initiatives if we start looking differently. [Christian Taylor] I was so surprised near the end of your film you go to Moldova and you show this group home of people that are living in it doesn't look like a very beautiful place at all.

20:43It looks like a concrete jungle with bars on the outside and people s looking like they're caged, but inside they look very happy and they are functioning like it's a home and they're in a family, and you say as much at the end. that this is actually a good, happy place. And I was so confused. I was like, how could this be? And that was one of my first questions when I met with you offline because I needed you to explain that to me. Of course with my Western mind, I'm thinking the same way you think, like, this looks terrible. How can they be happy?

21:16And so how what did you say? [Jonathan de Jong] Yeah, that's that's also about our perspective because their reference of a good life is a community life where people are taking care of each other. And there that was a house where people with multiple diagnoses were living together. and because of it, they also had different needs. And because they had different needs, they could help each other out. And what we do for instance in the Netherlands, put all the people with the same diagnose with dementia together.

21:45And they have the same need, so they they can't help each other out. so and that's exactly the the the core of why it felt so so amazingly warm over there in Moldova, because people felt that they were still contributing to something bigger than themselves. People still could make themselves worthwhile during the day brushing the hairs of the fellow roommate or whatever. And although they didn't have flat screen TVs or fireproof curtains or like the the the the best furniture, they didn't look at it because they the biggest question from everybody who's in an institution or in a healthcare organization is like how can I have the best possible day? And the director of that facility asked that question to every person who was living there.

22:30And then they said together, how can we facilitate it today? Because every day is different. I think when you are in a group, you really can elaborate and also talk to each other like all those kind of normal examples where we need stuff they took care of each other and I think that's a really beautiful example of how healthcare could look like if we step over certain systematic things that we are inventing today. [Christian Taylor] Yeah, There were two things that jumped out at me in my father's place.

22:56Everything is done for them. They're served meals at certain times. They're remote from anything that happens. Everything is delivered to them. And they don't really They have a garden they can go out and walk in, but it's just, a little circular garden. Of course, there's not a lot of freedom. And in one place in Belgium, there everyone is chopping the vegetables, folding the napkins. And you see that they're doing the regular things that they would do in their home.

23:25And I remember my grandmother, who also had dementia, she was able to stay in her home with caregivers. And what she did in her time in her 90s, she would go around the house and she would fold the napkins and she would sweep the sidewalk. And they were just things that she did in her normal life that she still knew how to do. They didn't necessarily need to be done, but it was her routine of life that she continued to do. And it felt like she was contributing during the day.

23:50And I thought, my father's not doing any of those things, you know? And then I thought about the woman in the end, the the woman in charge in the end, where that facility seemed very remarkable to me because it was in a home like environment where the people were going outside and working in the yard, or they were maybe it was like a more wooded setting where they could walk around and I think they had animals maybe even. I think that's one thing that people in facilities miss a lot is they miss the interaction with with animals.

24:20And I think what I noticed when there were people, directors that were in charge of those places, and they really did see them as human people that needed connection and the same things that they had in their homes and were able to make that life similar to what they had before, there was an element of happiness that was increased among their, population. I think that's [Jonathan de Jong] totally true because almost everybody I would say is looking for how can I make my life as normal as possible. Because nobody wants to be seen as a patient.

24:56You don't want to be seen as a person living with dementia or person living with cancer or whatever, because then you feel being othered. And I think that's Really, really a problem when it comes to healthcare. When when we see people as the other, we also try to make different rules for them. And it's easier to make different rules for them because we see them as an another being. But in the core, we never change. Although we have multiple diagnoses around it with different symptoms, like we still are heartwarmed, social human beings who are looking for love, warmth, and care.

25:33If you really approach people as normal human beings, they thrive. They see hey as new sparkles in life and and it's really about how you approach them and about creating a normal life and what we do is the opposite. We strip down everything that was so normal for them. Because nobody is is used to living the institution. Nobody's used to being fed. Nobody's used to sit at a table all day or can't go out in the garden or having locked doors or we shouldn't think that it's the best possible way of living that's what we always ask to people who would want to live in a nursing home?

26:07And nobody's raising fingers if we are in Q&As after watching the film. But The fact is, a lot of people will end up in a closed door of a nursing home. If we don't think about it now, if we don't have a more honest conversation about what is a good quality of life, it won't change. So that's the whole film is about showing hopeful initiative examples around the world, how we can do it differently already within the system that we have. So it's always about cultural context, what makes us happy.

26:36And how can we implement those universal lessons in our culture in order to make a step forward? [Christian Taylor] One of the things that I was very curious about, I think other filmmakers would be too, is you really created the feeling of being a fly on the wall for the viewers. Mm-hmm. It was the camera was invisible. I don't know how you made that happen, but the people that you were filming did not feel uncomfortable with the camera being there at all.

27:08So I'm very curious as to how you created such a comfortable environment with a camera being present during those emotional, vulnerable moments. and how did you get that access to these medical facilities? That is not easy to do, but you had unfettered access to all of these medical facilities all over the place and were there in very intimate moments. How did all that happen? [Jonathan de Jong] It's not the most financial best advice, but if you really want to be the fly on the wall, you have to invest time. What I did is I invested so much time also without having a camera with me. I was there, I was being present, I was making connections with people.

27:50Often I would put the camera just in the living room or in a bedroom when I was chatting with them so they could get used to the machine that I was bringing because it's it's a big camera of course. By doing so people were so used about me being present and that is really only because of time and only about making connections as a filmmaker as well because of course I had a protagonist but if I'm in the room as well then maybe they get distracted.

28:17So It's really about connecting myself with the human beings I was filming with throughout the three and a half years because it took me three and a half years to travel to 11 countries over four continents, also during the pandemic. So it was an immensely time-intensive project. and I filmed 115 days for it. and the time without camera, I think it's even much more. So I think you can see it in the film as a result. I always use the word f fragile.

28:47I like I I really like my films to be fragile. You're really part of the film and I think that really worked well also with Human Forever the silences, the noises, everything how nursing home feels, I think you will feel it straight away. And people who are in the scene, it feels like I'm I'm there. So, and also young people, professors from prestigious universities, they all say, like, you you take me onto a journey, and I really feel like I'm part of this journey about looking at the humans differently. And that's what I'm really find the the biggest compliment, if I can contribute to a different way of looking at each other.

29:22That's why the film is integrated also in 43 universities around the world, including Yale, Oxford. It's more than a film about dementia. It's much more about looking at how how we look at at each other in society. [Christian Taylor] You really used silence, well. You gave us time to think and process what we were seeing come to our own conclusions about things. I felt you the motto that we hear in filmmaking all the time is show, don't tell. And I felt like you were a master of that in this sense because you did a lot of just showing we were seeing and experiencing.

30:02You did ask questions and have us think through the questions, but more than anything, we just watched things happen and we watched the people in the film express themselves or Yeah. demonstrate what they were feeling. And so that was that was incredibly interesting. But you also had to write the story. And so you're telling me you filmed 115 days. That's a lot of footage. Whittling that down to a story must have been difficult. So talk to me about the story itself and how you wrote it.

30:34[Jonathan de Jong] I did more than a year and a half research and also while filming I I went on with the research because in order to make it a real quest for me as well, I I needed the space to also be surprised about things that I saw. And still got the story straight from what I researched before, else it won't be a good story. And to do so, I I really, really focused on the urgency of money is not the solution in order to better quality of life.

31:03What is and what can we learn if we have a non-western perspective of what can we learn from your culture, what can we learn from your place and during the research I heard so many great examples, and I took Teun as like a thermal meter, like to say, like, hey, is it true what I know? Like, just try to feel it over there, and then we had conversations after a day that we were on a new place, and then we start saying, like, hey, this is so differently, and I knew why it was different, so we could interact, but I always told him.

31:38"You don't know anything." And I never told him anything about where we were going. So he was really real about what he saw. And I think it's also a part that you feel it's so legit, it's so honest what you see, because all the interactions are completely new, are completely from an open face, and because he was a nurse he knew a lot about healthcare, but I always told him "Be Switzerland." Switzerland was always a neutral country. So you don't know anything. And it's the hardest part when you know a lot about the sector, that you don't know anything.

32:11And that that really helped him getting the story out from the people who we so often forget. Like the people with dementia, we often talk about them, not with them. And we really want to have a narrative where the people would tell us how they see life and how would they experience life and how would you see good quality of life. So those kind of tactics were really important in order to get the story straight. And by finding new answers, I always asked the professors who were helping me or the governments, to who do you look up to?

32:43And can you get me in contact with the person? And then by doing so it was such a warm bath the whole research because people were saying I'm busy for 40 years around this subject and the only films that come out are so negative about what people can't do anymore, about the loss. Like it's a full circle. Every film that comes out is a l only stigmatizing people with dementia and not through bad intentions but only because it's what people are often focused on and by bringing out a more nuanced story and much more honest story about w what kind of things are there besides the symptoms that people find terrifying.

33:21I think that is so heartwarming, also for yourself when you think about hey, if I'm one in five that can get dementia, how do I want my life to look like? And is there maybe a different way, a more hopeful way? And yes, there is. How can we shape it together? So about the learning curve that you see throughout the film is also how I really take my audience with me in my own mind, like saying, hey. if we clamp onto this example, this example, then we have then we created a whole new narrative.

33:50And I think that's really how I want to work because I also really have to feel that I'm exploring while knowing a lot. [Christian Taylor] Well, we've talked a lot about the movie. I think it's time to have people experience it a little bit. So we're gonna take a break and I wanna let people experience your work a little. Today's episode is brought to you by our friends over at Virgil Films. With over 25 years of distribution experience, Virgil has released such hits as Super Size Me and the Oscar-nominated Restrepo, along with a trove of indie treasures like Forks Over Knives, To Die For, Seven Yards, and Speed is Expensive.

34:28Now you can find all of those films, along with the entire Virgil catalog, on any transactional platform out there like Amazon, Apple TV, YouTube, Tubi, and the rest. Are you a filmmaker having trouble with distribution? Talk to Virgil. They work with every major platform directly, and they offer a variety of deals that fit every filmmaker's needs, from standard distribution to service deals. They do it all. And they don't just distribute films, they elevate them.

34:59Truthfully, they're just really good people to work with. So if you want to learn more, head over to Virgilfilms.com and tell them Christian Taylor sent you. And now, on with the show. So here you go, everybody. Here's a little bit of Human Forever. [Teun Toebes] My name is Teun. I'm 24, in perfect health, and live in the closed ward of a nursing home. Why? I am 24, but not all my life. That's why I'm now going to start looking for answers for the future.

36:10In a three-year journey across 11 countries and four continents, I look at how other countries deal with dementia and the people who have to live with it. And how can we shape society in the future for the people who so desperately need our attention, but whom we so often forget. Surely everyone, regardless of age or diagnosis, has an equal right to a good life, right? [Resident] I am no longer of any use whatsoever. [Teun Toebes] Do you really feel that way?

36:49[Resident] Yes. It's the truth, isn't it? What good does it do now if I'm alive? [Christian Taylor] All right, everybody. That's Human Forever. I asked you before, but we didn't get to it, about access to medical facilities. How did you get such unprecedented access to the medical facilities? [Jonathan de Jong] Yeah, I thought it would it would be so much harder, but because the family members have to sign for it as well, they were all so happy that we were coming.

37:31So it was organized instantly almost. Like the we we we sent it to the healthcare organization. They knew us because Teun became a very famous face in the world of dementia. So they knew we were good people coming there for like a a different narrative around dementia so they were open-minded and to convince the family members it took them just a few days and then they said good to go so and by saying like hey we we visited those kind of places the the other facilities are like okay then and then this family member would would also say okay so it was really a big surprise because now in my new film about strong communities we're filming with people without diagnosis and all those kind of people just everyday people and it's so much harder to get all the signs on on on green because people are more critical saying like what are you guys coming to do like this is just ordinary life what do you want to film what is the reason like they're they're much more thinking about the reasons behind and I think with the film around dementia, people were very clear about, hey, those guys are gonna help us out in in a more hopeful story.

38:43So yeah, that was surprisingly easy to to get all the documents signed. [Christian Taylor] That's interesting because you have a lot of people in the film, all that signed [Jonathan de Jong] Lots. [Christian Taylor] releases. And so that that's a big accomplishment. Let's talk then about the international production part. You went to eleven countries. That can't be easy to work in 11 different countries. I've worked a lot in France, and that itself was difficult.

39:08And have traveled and shown my film in many other countries in Europe and just showing my film and selling some products there has not been easy. So how in the world can we do that? Right now, we'll use myself as an example. I've been trying to shoot for several years of The Brave Dutch and I have another Dutch production coming up. And it has been very difficult to find production partners or to even understand international production laws and rules.

39:34How in the world do do that? [Jonathan de Jong] I think one of the key elements in producing in foreign countries is to get in touch with the local community. That's how I do it, like not official fixers, because I looked for people in the sector. and that made made me connected with people from the government, but also big organization who said, like, yeah, Jonathan, you really have to film with us. We are such a good example. said, okay, that but then we need to organize things.

40:03So I let them organize my visit, especially the the permits. and then it also went a much, much more easier because I have a small team. I'm doing the filming myself, especially with Teun because we're it's such a delicate subject. I really want to have like a a a small team. so we said to them, We're lean and mean, we can go whenever you want. We we come to your country, but we really need certain things agreed upon before arrival. that is in the filming phase, producing phase, but also in the post production, in releasing the film. We have such a a big army of ambassadors who are really helping us out in order to reach the audiences in every country that they know much better than I do.

40:45Because then you have to go through official ways and then you always come to like certain areas where yeah where you don't get a lot of impact. So I always try to arrange a a big army of ambassadors before coming to a country and and that helped us out very, very very very much and that that's why we could travel even though it was a pa a pandemic we could travel Almost all the countries in the world. [Christian Taylor] So tell me give me in a specific example when you say you connected an organization to help you. So give me a specific example maybe in in each different country. What do you mean?

41:22[Jonathan de Jong] Yeah, like for instance, we want to go to s South Korea, Super Brain. it it they were so far ahead when it comes to prevention of dementia. but it was very difficult as well because Korea was almost closed for every outsider during the pandemic. But the people from Superbrain were really in good contact with the the government because they have a had a collaboration and they said r they felt the urgency of also participating in this film.

41:47So they Did all they could in order to get us there. And then that finally resulted in that we could fly to South Korea being quarantined for a long, long, long time. It was such a hard thing. One of the hardest things I ever did in my life, just be in a square space of two by three meters, whatever, sitting there 24/7 a day. but it really helped us in order to also get a hopeful message about their example. bringing it out to the world. And now they really see that they are being connected to the to the rest of the world because the film is such an international success.

42:20but they were our ambassadors. They did all the hard work in order to get into the country. [Christian Taylor] Makes sense. Okay, Let's talk about funding then. Funding is a Mm. really difficult thing, particularly here in the United States. I imagine it's true everywhere. I think it was difficult for me when I was trying to talk to the French people about funding, didn't end up with any funding there either. So talk to me about how you fund your films.

42:44[Jonathan de Jong] In the Netherlands as well, I think on a global scale, people always say when it comes to documentaries, it's a hard business to live from. I think that's true if we're only dependent on film funds or other funds from big organizations. What we try to do, and that's also the way of how we produce, about partnering up with social organizations, with foundations, with local governments, national governments when the topic is relevant for a lot of people there are always companies, foundations, organizations, who are willing to help you out in order to spread the message. Sometimes they're having campaigns for hundreds and thousands of euros that don't reach anybody because they they're not on YouTube, they're not on Instagram, they're followers.

43:26So we said like filmmaking as making impact it's new for a lot of organizations. So we help them creating Human Forever and the audience and outreach that we did. Now they know if we are participating in those kind of films, we can reach our audience much easier with a better message. So what we did for our next film that's about addiction comes out next year. It's also collaborating with a lot of social organizations who are busy with it every day around the world.

43:54And by giving funds to us, It's a small amount for them, but if we add it on to all the amounts that we get, we have a full film. talking about six figures or whatever. It's really a film that you can internationally produce. And by doing so, we create an audience at the same time. The organization that are participating in our film, they have a big, big audience, They have a number of employees with them. So if you're good in the sector already, that's one of the reasons that we created our audience because those people will be the biggest ambassadors when a film comes out.

44:24They say, like, hey, we participate in the film, go and watch the film, and their friends will say it as well. Partnering up with strategically good partners, you also create your own audience beforehand. [Christian Taylor] I have run into a wall when I've reached out to nonprofit organizations, museums or other associations. My fundraising or fund seeking has been in the World War II sphere or the veteran sphere, and they're all trying to raise funds for themselves.

44:55So nobody wants to even though my message is very helpful for them they'd rather use their money for their own causes. And I don't blame them for that. But it's very difficult to get them to see The bigger picture. Yeah. Mm-hmm. [Jonathan de Jong] Yeah. And I I think I think [Christian Taylor] So, how do you convince people? [Jonathan de Jong] It's also in in in every aspect in every sector that I'm creating a film in, it's very competitive because we live in a competitive world where attention is It's gold almost like we're every company, every organization, if it's a non-profit or a pro a profitable company, everybody wants to make a difference with their brand.

45:35in order to get the story out, I think the way they do it nowadays is not sufficient if they really want to make impact because impact is not fuse, impact is really how you sustain things that you are trying to to tell the people and that I think that's what we did with Human Forever we created a movement and a movement is so much more than just having 10,000 views on Instagram or having so much followers on Instagram or LinkedIn so I think it's not about branding I say we do storytelling.

46:07Storytelling is completely different because it's thinking about the concept of the message that we want to share, and also about implementing this vision, because that's much more important than just being the next best thing, and then three weeks later some Netflix releases something else, and then that's the next best thing. Our film released in 2023 in October, and three years later, I'm still closing deals everywhere around the world. Came back from a film tour with Teun throughout Australia. And that's just because we keep the message fresh, we keep it exciting, we keep it exclusive, and that's storytelling because we believe this story is for everybody in the world, but of course, not everybody in the world knows us.

46:52So it's upon us how to reach them and how to create impact. And I think If you show them, of course, now a lot of people understand the different way of reaching out of creating impact, and then it of course it makes it easier for your next film to get multiple partners behind you, but still there's an audience for everybody, I really believe. How small your story also is, but there there is an audience, and we can create a bigger audience if we think about it beforehand.

47:18That's the golden solution in creating a better film world is to have a different approach and really start to speak the language of the people who are consuming so much content nowadays. and we only think it has to be shorter but we proved them a different with our film it's a serious topic and we had a lot of young people coming to the cinemas because we made dementia sexy. [Christian Taylor] Ha ha. [Jonathan de Jong] that sounds it That sounds crazy because that's exactly what I said to Teun when I met him.

47:45I said, like, we have to make dementia Coca-Cola. And he was laughing as well. He said, like, Jonathan, don't d don't say crazy things. But I said, like, we have to approach it like it's Coca-Cola. We have to share the happiness. We have to share the good stories. We have to share the good examples in order to get a relief that people want to talk about it. Because just like my mother said to me, Jonathan, dementia is worse than death. People are so afraid of it. Don't don't make a film about dementia because it it will kill your career. It will ruin your career.

48:11[Christian Taylor] Awww [Jonathan de Jong] And I said, no, no, no, but there's a different approach to it. I know I can share it with the world. Together with Teun about the joining the forces, we really managed to make dementia as the topic itself sexy in order for people to speak about it. [Christian Taylor] Well, I'm a fan of your point of view. I think that what it does is it shows the tender side of humanity that we have marginalized and othered.

48:35And I think by seeing that in your film, it makes us feel the compassion. We see that, we see what's been invisible to us. And I think that makes it real. And we do care about what is real when we see real things, we do care. Through this film, you show us our own humanity. And You do a good job of showing us that could very well be us. And I I'm very well aware that dementia and my father is Alzheimer's actually, and that is hereditary. And my grandfather had it and his grandfather before him.

49:08I'm right in that line and I know that very much could be in my future. I applaud you for this film. I thank you for doing it. and I appreciate you coming on today to talk to me about this. Now, before we go, we do have to do everyone's favorite segment, which we call DocuView Déjà Vu. And I'd love to ask you if you have a favorite documentary that you could share with our audience. [Jonathan de Jong] Definitely have a favorite documentary. One of the best examples that a modern day fairy tale still exists.

49:35It's not a new film, but still one of the best ever made and that's Searching for Sugar Man. [Christian Taylor] Yeah, that's a good one. [Jonathan de Jong] I was in awe when I saw it for the first time because I thought it's impossible. It's impossible. It's impossible what they trying to do. And until the end of the film I I still thought it would be impossible that the character I'm I'm not gonna spoil it, but it it it's it's it's [Christian Taylor] Yeah, don't spoil it. Don't spoil it.

49:58[Jonathan de Jong] Searching for it's an impossible ending, but it's [Christian Taylor] sugar on everybody. Yeah, that's a great one. [Jonathan de Jong] It's so heartwarming. My work is all about connecting people, showing the beauty of of humanity, making people aware of the importance of connecting, of social awareness, about the power of social connection. I think this film really if you're not happy after watching this film nothing will make you happy ever again.

50:20It's a masterpiece. I think it's really an a fantastic example of what the power of storytelling can do. [Christian Taylor] All right, last question I have for you is where can we watch this film? [Jonathan de Jong] Yeah, it's fresh from the press. it's it's gonna be on PBS. so it's it's very exciting to after some theatrical releases throughout the country, we're gonna do a mainstream release now with with them. So very, very excited about it. [Christian Taylor] Well do know when it's gonna be on PBS?

50:50[Jonathan de Jong] Not yet. We have to we have to wait and see how the planning with them goes, but we we will keep people up to date. [Christian Taylor] Okay, well, I'll tell you what, I'll make you a promise. When you find out the dates, you let me know, and we'll begin sharing it on social media. So thank you, Jonathan. It was a pleasure talking to you. You taught us so much today. Thank you for all the lessons that you've shared with us. Thank you for the wonderful film that you made.

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