Joe Brumm & Hamish Blake - A Bluey-print For Dads

0:01I don't think my kids would have the dad that they have if Bluey wasn't around. I don't think I would have been able to recover from the mistakes I made as a parent without Bluey. Joe Brum, the creator of Bluey, joins us with special guest host Hamish Blake to talk about play, presence and the real impact we're having as parents. They're watching you and you're sort of part of their play even though you don't know it. You might not be down on the floor with them, but you're doing a pretty essential part.

0:30It's not so much what you're doing, it's like you're the game. The fact that you're there, you're the game. Like for them in that moment, that's what they'll remember. They'll remember the action of you just being involved. I was at the park with our mum and my son. Mum's entertaining him. And I got my phone out and I just looked at it and I got a very disapproving look from mum. And then she said, when I was your age and you were his age, she said, I saw everything you saw.

0:55I smelt everything you smelt. I heard everything you heard because I was there with you fully. You're not going to get that because you're not fully there. With our attention being pulled in a thousand different directions, how do we show up for our kids in a way that is meaningful to them? If I am going to the toilet, the kids are like, give us your phone. Like, turn it in. I'm like, I'll be quick. And they're like, yeah, well, let's have it. And welcome to today's performance of The Imperfects with Joe Brum.

1:27Today, the part of Ryan Shelton will be played by Hamish Blake. So sorry to everyone expecting Ryan Shelton, but I have been understudying him for 30 years. And in true Ryan fashion, I have come with no prep. So I feel like I should just step into the bridge perfectly. I feel like you've watched a lot of Bluey. I have watched a lot of Bluey, Joe, and I've studied you for many years too. Like, lucky enough to be friends with you as well. So I've come with some prep, some prep and a keen interest.

1:58But can I just say, this is an honour to be guest host. Well, it's wonderful to have you. And I think especially with today's topic, talking to Joe about Bluey and everything that comes with the extraordinary experience of... what you've created Joe I think just to say up front that I feel like the influence you've had on parents around the world and then Hamish also with your how the dad's dad you are also officially a father of the year um good to get that comment on that thank you yeah well it's all about trophies that's what it's all about um And also, Josh, probably my favourite dad.

2:32So to be having this conversation with all of you, it feels very special. But Joe, welcome. We're so excited to have you here. Yeah, thanks. Good to be here. You actually joined us on stage for our live show in Brisbane. And that was, again, a couple of years now. I remember thinking, my gosh, this has to be an episode. It was so good. Yeah, that was a good fun night, actually. It was... I mean, it's the first time I'd seen your live show, obviously, and it was once I'd finished my thing, I just went and sat in the audience and loved it, the Eckhart Tolle doll.

3:02Oh, that's Eckhart Tolle, yeah. Eckhart Tolle. And you know what? I think maybe I'd told you this, but right at the time I was writing something that was going to be a movie, right? Like I said, I'm going to write a whole new movie. But I'd gotten some advice, you know, and they were saying, listen, why don't you just write that as a TV series, you know, that makes more sense from this point of view. And I was like, okay, and I'd sort of gone along with it.

3:23And then at some point in it, I think it was your story, Josh, I can't remember the gist of it, but basically just said, listen, you just got to do what you feel like doing, you know, whatever makes sense. I'm probably paraphrasing you there, but... I remember walking out the night going, I don't want to write another TV series. I want this as a movie. I want to start making movies. And now that is a movie and I love it. So, yeah, that's what happened.

3:47Holy shit. Oh, my God. Josh, you're a film executive. I'm going to be rich. If the movie's shit, then I'll be on the hook. This is Joe's way of turning you financially liable for his film. Well, that's amazing. So thank you. Oh, that is incredible. I know this is not what this is about, but do we get to know what the movie is? Like what field it's loosely in? Yeah, it hasn't really been announced yet, but it's for sort of 12-year-olds. It's my goonies kind of.

4:16Oh, wow. That's so great. That's so needed. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. No, it's going to be a lot of fun. It's sort of me and my little mates when we were 12. Yeah. all that coming out in a kind of a bit of a weird setting. But the Bluey movie as well, that's happening over here, but this is the first new thing I've done since Bluey. I actually remember the question that Josh answered on stage. I remember you messaged me then, I think it was about a week later, but the question, Josh, you answered on stage was, if you couldn't possibly fail, what would your next move be?

4:48What would your next career move be? And I think that was what prompted it. So that's – Yeah. That's very exciting to know. Wow. Yeah. I mean, for context, I'd tried writing music when I was younger and got humiliated at a party when someone pulled out my lyrics book and everyone started reading it in a circle and saying how shit it was. And then I didn't really write lyrics again after that moment for, God, 15 years, I think. And then thanks to doing the show and sharing that, I thought a vulnerable thing to do is to write a song and perform it on stage, which is what we did that night.

5:18And it was awesome. Yeah. So good. It was a lot of fun. I know we're not talking about the film and that's not what we're here to do, but just because it fascinates me because I have a 12-year-old myself. Yep. To come from the world of Bluey, which is for slightly younger kids, you know, and all ages and parents, but, you know, it's in that world of littler kids. to then now your mind sort of turns to the next phase of childhood, like that preteen world, that 12-year-old world.

5:44Was that a conscious decision to sort of be growing a little bit and then delve into that world about how play, which is what we're sort of here to talk about today, but how play evolves from when you're a little kid, but then to hold on to that play and all the imagination that you have as a preteen in that world. Is that what it looks into? Yeah, well, it's a weird one because most... Play tends to subside around 12, that sort of imaginative, dramatic sort of play, and no one's really sure why.

6:12One suggestion is that it's all the things that you used to imitate and recreate you are starting to be allowed to do. For real. For real, you know, and so the need to, you know, recreate them and imitate them. Yeah. You don't have to pretend work when you're 14 and actually go to Maccas to work. Yeah. Yeah, basically. And it was sort of the same reason I left Bluey. It was my kids weren't at that age anymore. And it's like, oh, but this new age, they're 12.

6:39And I remember 12. And so I just wanted to just make stuff for them. I think just naturally that it's aimed at kids that are right in front of me. Yeah, because you're looking at the world through their eyes again. Yeah. Transported back to being 12. And the reason there's so many books and stories and movies, you know, coming of age movies, because it's such a – it is. You're – You know, you want to leave that childhood and they want to go into adulthood, but then they also want to do these tactical retreats all the time, you know, and it's just that little crossover point.

7:11It's also quite nerve-wracking. It's the first – like, Bluey's just – You know, you guarantee that at least people will watch it. Yeah. You know what I mean? If I write a Bluey movie or an episode whereas this thing is totally new and it's starting from the bottom again and you have to accept it'll never be as successful as Bluey and there's different reasons to do it now, if you know what I mean. I don't need it to pay my mortgage so I'm making it because I just love making things totally uh so so one of the great joys i have with this job is i get to write people's bios and i thoroughly enjoyed writing yours joe i have to say um i read it to my i've never done this before but i read it to my six-year-old daughter yesterday just to get her thoughts on it and she said um it's pretty boring um so it didn't pass elsey's test but uh stick with it So here we go.

8:01This is it. So in seven-minute installments, Joe Brum is responsible for the laughter and joy of millions of people around the world. As the number one streamed television series of all time, in 2025, Bluey was watched in the US for a total of 45.2 billion minutes. Growing up in Queensland, Joe graduated with a Bachelor of Animation in 1998 before spending over 10 years in the UK working as a lead animator on successful children's shows such as Charlie and Lola and Peppa Pig.

8:30In 2009, after moving back to Brisbane and founding his own animation studio, Studio Joe Ho, Joe began assembling his own team. In 2016, the pilot of Bluey was launched. Two years later, Bluey premiered on the ABC. When Bluey first appeared on our screens, most of us thought it was a show for kids. But we didn't realise that it was also quietly becoming a show for mums and dads. A show that would make exhausted parents feel seen. A show that would reassure us that we're not ruining our children every time We get it wrong.

8:58A show that would remind us that presence and play matters, whilst reminding us that this time in our lives is precious and fleeting. All over the world, there are parents who are a little more playful, a little more patient, and a little more connected to their children because of something that you have created, Jo. And even more importantly, there are children who will grow up feeling deeply loved because the adults in their lives learned something from a little blue dog, and that's an extraordinary legacy.

9:26How does that last bit land on you? I'm just interested to know as someone who has never, ever sought the limelight or recognition or fame, hearing that impact that you've had on people around the world, how does that land on you? Yeah, well, it feels good. It feels like an important area to have affected kind of positively, I suppose. I feel like Bluey may be. maybe just made it a bit easier to give permission for a lot of people to do probably what they felt was coming natural to them, you know, as we in our generation.

10:02I mean, you mentioned there that you felt like it gave people permission to maybe do what was coming naturally. I would say there's another quite large category of parents who – were way less cognizant than that, who were like, it was almost not a rule book but a huge inspiration to go, oh, wow, this wasn't the way that I was parented, but it's something I would love to try. But maybe I think there's a large amount of eye-opening to go this would be This is the kind of thing that I was wanting to do, but I didn't really have anyone showing me a concrete example of being playful and joyful and a bit messy and imaginative and silly with the kids.

10:44So I think that's a huge legacy of Bluey as well. Yeah, I think if that's even a little bit of that's the legacy of Bluey, then I think it's been worth all the effort, you know. Yeah, absolutely. I actually wonder if it's worth us, for the couple of people in the world who haven't seen Bluey, I'm just explaining a bit of the basics just in case we go into a few of the episodes today, which I'm sure we will. So you've got – there are a family of Blue Heelers.

11:13They live in Brisbane. And there is Bluey, who's seven. She's got a little sister called Bingo who's four and then there's the parents Bandit and Chilly and then there's a whole range of other incredible characters that I'm sure we'll get into as we talk about all sorts of things today. So just, I mean, we're about to talk about play obviously, but what's the definition that you kind of go by with Bluey? Well, a good definition of play I read, and I'm pretty sure I've got this right, was play is the voluntary overcoming of unnecessary obstacles.

11:50Oh, I like that. Really good. Yeah, it's cool because it's sort of similar in sport, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like we put a net on a tennis court. Yeah. Yeah, you have to have an obstacle. Yeah. Otherwise, there's no fun. Yeah, exactly. And this whole thing of problems, right? I think so much of the enjoyment of it is it's a problem that needs to be overcome. So play is just one of those situations where you all decide, look, let's put some problems in our way and let's all try and overcome them.

12:21I love the definition of – like that definition is amazing. The unnecessary bit is especially good. But I love bringing in problems as a way of viewing creativity because I've – throughout my life I've been quite daunted by the idea of creativity, that I'm not good enough creatively compared to other people. But for me – and I think this – I hope this might resonate with some people who don't necessarily see themselves as creative – that already solve so many problems in their life.

12:48And I kind of like the idea of creating a problem that I have to solve. And then the enjoyment of solving it creatively is sort of the special source. But I love the idea of reframing creativity as a problem. Yeah. To be solved. Well, even I suppose like a lot of adult play is solving problems. Like, well, sports, I suppose, that you play together. I mean, I don't want to talk too much about golf, but that seems to be the definition of golf. Well, we've created a problem, which is it's a very small ball and it's impossible to hit it.

13:18And if you get it once, you can never repeat it again. And the hole is really far away. The hole's really far away. And so small. And no one's ever mastered this, so good luck. And you've got four strokes to get it. Otherwise, we start penalising. Yeah, you get very few chances, and then everyone will start teasing you. Have a great day. But that episode Shadowlands was sort of poking at that. You know, it's like you can keep taking these problems out and then the game just feels flat.

13:43Yeah, exactly. If you get free passes or people get superpowers, then what are we doing here? Yeah. In that episode, for those who haven't seen it, they can only stand where the shadows are in the park and they're trying to get back to where the mums have made cupcakes and they seem to be at a point where it's impossible to get there because the sun has shiny light in front of them. And one of the characters said, I think maybe it's okay this time if we just ignore it and we just cheat.

14:08And they go very close to it. And I said, no, no, but we have to stick to the rules, the rules are rules. And then an opportunity appears, the clouds come over. And, yeah, it's the most exciting part of the game when they overcome the obstacle and they stick to the rules. I suppose it is just like any satisfaction in life comes from, play included, comes from overcoming an obstacle. Play is a fun way to do it. And maybe that is a part, I don't know, I'd love your thoughts, but is that...

14:32In terms of the rehearsal part of play, because you're rehearsing for real life by playing shops or playing whatever, playing mums and dads, you're rehearsing, really, and you need... You need obstacles to have any kind of satisfaction after doing it. Yeah, well, play theorists, since the late 1700s, they've all tried to figure out why kids do it, why they do these social things. One theory is it's a rehearsal and they're practising things they're going to need to use.

15:02One dude thought it was all humans lived through every evolutionary state of our prehistory, so kids would play hunter-gatherer and all this. Yeah. that one was sort of discounted. Once Freud came along, the psychoanalytical people were like, well, this is all internal desires and it's this and that. So I don't know why we do it. But I do think there's something important about the voluntary aspect of it, right, because we've got actual problems when you grow up.

15:30You have to pay your mortgage and no one just gives you money for free, if you know what I mean. Yeah. You could argue those problems. They don't feel like fun. No. No one's going, oh, what a fun. That's so nice of the bank to give me this fun problem I have to solve every month. Yeah. What a playful time. So when we choose in our free time to recreate the same issues, and that's why, you know, like the MMOs, like massive online role-playing games, right, like The Grind, So, people, this is your free time now.

16:06You've been at work all day. Now it's your free time and you're choosing it to be mining, you know, arcanite or whatever. If I look over your shoulder, this looks a hell of a lot like a job, you know. Yeah, there are people in the Pilbara that do this before they get paid. But yet you're choosing to do it voluntarily, you know. So there's obviously something about choosing your problems, you know, that, that suddenly it makes fun. I don't know the answer to any of this.

16:35I find it really fascinating. Yeah. Spot on. Because obviously, I mean, I know you're interested in the science behind play as well. I just wrote two notes to myself here as far as what I feel like, why play is so incredibly powerful for a child or for anyone. And I feel like this is what, to Hamish's point, this is kind of like what Bluey has shown parents. And I feel it's a bit stereotyped to say dads, but that's how it feels to me. The two main things I think we get from play are the first one is that it helps children to feel loved.

17:08I feel like when they're asking you to get on the floor with them and play, they're not asking for a performance. They're not asking to be entertained. They're asking for connection through attention. So I reckon that's the first thing that I've taken from Bluey. And the second one is actually for adults. I feel like play helps adults to feel alive. So like when Bandit drops everything and gets on the floor with the girls – Like he's instantly connected to things like wonder and creativity and silliness and joy, which I think for a lot of us, that stuff is buried beneath emails and mortgages and all those kinds of things.

17:42Yeah. Well, it's interesting because when you do get down on the floor, like it's hard to do, right? It's like I used to do, well, I still do, but I used to do those big, long meditation courses, right? And you've got 10 days and your knees are hurting and- The only way I ever found to get through it was if I kept thinking, oh, God, if I can get through this session, then there's another eight hours today and then this is day two. It was just you'd have to go, listen, you can't think about how long you've got left.

18:15You've just got to sit down and do what you meant to be doing. Do this minute well. To me, it's pretty similar back when you used to get on the floor and play at four in the morning, the 10th game of, you know, whatever it was, you know, shops with kids. All you'd want to do is reach your phone or all I'd want to do, sorry, is reach my phone or think, okay. I think you can say we there. I think we's okay. Yeah, fair enough. Oh, my God. Joe, you're so shameful.

18:48I would never think about a text. I would never acknowledge a buzz in my post. The buzz is the worst because you feel it. You're just like, that could be it. Don't just get through this 10 seconds of not reaching for your phone. I don't know. It's kind of like a – it's almost like a little spiritual exercise where you just have to say, look, do not think about when this ends. Just get fully absorbed in this little crazy scenario. And then I would enjoy it.

19:18And, you know, I guess as an animator I do have a pretty active imagination and that would help because, you know, the kids, when kids play together they need the other kid to feed back, right? So you often would start a conversation. I was quite, you know, like Monty Python and stuff, so I was quite good at coming up with... bizarre things that they had to then incorporate into their game. And as soon as you're locked in one of those and it's a back and forth.

19:41So fun. Yeah. Then you can get lost in it. It is playing at its heart. It's almost like jazz improvising, right? Like in the, in the best kind of play, it is improvising with each other. Like, You start off with a loose structure of, okay, we're playing schools. That's a big one. I have to attend my daughter's school a lot. But done well, it develops into something where you are improvising off each other. And that's kind of whatever that magic is in the human brain and heart that lights us up when something happened out of nothing.

20:13Yeah. That's a really good explanation of it. It's a group activity. So say with kids, right, leave the parents out of it, but with a group of four kids playing school, it's a group activity. It takes more than one kid, right, to have this particular type of play. But it's all individual pursuit. Every kid brings their little narrative to it. This school I'm not doing too well and so I keep putting in detention and the teacher says, okay, cool, Johnny, you're in detention and bounces off that.

20:43If the kid isn't bringing a narrative and it's just standing around, they'll get booted. It's really harsh, but, you know, your input's required. It's great. And it's when all those things weave together that, yeah, you suddenly, you're in this place, you've created a little story which you had no idea. Like you say, the basic setting is their school, but you'll find this plot evolves and everyone bounces off it and sometimes they need to stick and move and sometimes someone will have to suddenly change roles.

21:09You know, actually, we need you to be a kid. Yeah, okay, I'm a kid. Suddenly just you've turned that corner. Yeah. So it does work on memory, but it is imagination. So the sort of poorer players from everything I've read, they'll just bring memory in, right? And they go, right, my mum acts like this, therefore all mums act like this. Yeah, yeah. Whereas other kids, the sort of better players, they bring memory in, then they engage in imagination, right, if my mum was like this, what would she do in this situation?

21:36So in doing that, so many things come out of the kids, cooperation, sort of coordination, mental discipline, concentration, and kind of a goodwill. And goodwill to everyone having their say. And by the end of it, you know, that kid experiences the world as welcoming. They experience themselves as creative beings and they experience the world as receptive to their input, which is probably one of the most magic things I sort of learned in the course of all this.

22:05Sometimes I see people in meetings and they're scared to say to put their two cents in, right, because they haven't experienced the world as receptive to their input. It's so interesting. It gives them a self-belief that what I've got to say counts. Yep, and contributes to this little scene and is welcomed. So kids doing that day in and day out I think is pretty good for them. I also imagine that if you, not just that what I have to say is welcome, but it's also not make or break, I would assume.

22:35Yeah. Because I guess in play it changes so quickly from like we were doing this to now the phone is a telescope because someone came up with this new idea or something doesn't work and they don't like that. But then if they come up with something different, two minutes later that's actually a microscope and they like that, it's like not every suggestion is make or break, I'm a bad person, all that kind of stuff that starts to creep in. Yeah, and in poorer players...

23:02It does creep in. Criticism takes the form of its personal criticism. You know, it's like this, you know, you're not playing properly because you're an idiot, right? Whereas in the better players, the criticism is there just as, well, you're not adhering to this theme, you know, this mutual thing we're trying to create. And so it's not a personal criticism. It's just, listen, criticism. Telephones aren't, you know, they don't work like that. You have to have them.

23:29You can walk around with telephones, whatever. So, yeah, you never feel with good players, the kids never feel like picked on for coming up with something that doesn't fit the narrative. It's interesting to hear you use the term like poorer players or more adept players. Is there something that you've encountered that makes kids become better players or conditions that facilitate the development of good healthy play as opposed to restricted players?

23:59Well, not from my personal experience. I haven't sort of watched it because it's a hard thing to watch, right? You sort of need to be there. You need to then know the backgrounds of kids and stuff like that. But definitely from books that I've read, there is a correlation between the kids' home life. Yeah. whether that's quite an authoritarian household, all this sort of stuff, and that kid's behaviour while they play. The freedom to play. Freedom to play, their play styles, their ability to use abstract objects, you know, so it's like in the episode Typewriter.

24:35It's like some poorer players, they need an actual typewriter. If they're a writer in this game, yeah, and that was the subject of one of these books. It was how do we facilitate play, you know, and they tried a few different methods. They're like, right, should we... take the kids round to these, you know, because so much is immersive. So we make sure we take them to shops and take them to museums and then that'll inform their play. That didn't have much of an effect.

25:00What affected it the most was just a teacher there. Obviously, once you've provided all the sort of raw materials and space, was a teacher there just taking the lightest touch, kind of the opposite of Bandit really, but taking the lightest touch of if like a conflict was threatening to, you know, the teacher may arbitrate. But look, people, this is from reading a couple of books. I don't know. Which is all my knowledge. But I'm sure there are people listening going, I want my kids to have a great imagination and...

25:35But is it just sort of, you know, put the raw materials in front of them and know that the human brain is curious? I think if you're sitting there and you're having that thought, I'd say your kid has already got a good imagination. Okay. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. If you're conscious enough to be thinking that. Yeah, yeah. There's two bluey things from the show that I think are so relevant to what you're talking about there. And I feel like Calypso, is it kindergarten teacher, school teacher?

26:03Yeah, kindergarten. Kinder school. Yeah, preschool. I think – Any episode where she's in it, you see that light touch, exactly what you're talking about, that framework around play is just beautiful. But the thing that was more prescient to me in this discussion that I've found to be a really inspiring example is, and I can't remember the name of the episode, but it's the octopus... where they're running behind the back of the couch. Yep. And Bandit's been playing with Bluey at home and Bluey's friend and it's crazy and it's wild and it's this sort of erratic game.

26:36They're so much fun. And then the child, the dog, who is a... Is he a Labrador? Dalmatian. Yeah. Very close. Yeah. I mean, I wish you'd prefer yourself too much doing breed analysis. I think it proves I've seen it. The Dalmatian character goes home to their dad and their dad is very straight down the line, very sensible person and can't play the same crazy game. But by the end of the episode, they've worked out a way of playing that's very sort of scientific, very by the rules.

27:12And they've established their own rules. And you see this incredible connection develop between the father and the child. Because he had his way to do it. His way to do it. And I find that so inspiring that you don't have to copy what you see. You've got to find your own way that works for you and your child. It's beautiful. Yeah, and within a group of kids, every kid's going to come in with their own sort of proclivities, and that's what kids learn, is that they're like, okay, well, this kid has this sort of interest, you know, and the game just moulds around it.

27:42It's not like everyone has to be this personality type for this game to work. You just have to be... It seems to be the rules are you just have to take part and you have to adhere to the theme of the game being played. You can't just come in and say, right, actually, we're doing this. The more I think about it just now in this moment, but play, it teaches us so many of the most important skills we have. As adults, I think, so I was, uh, Josh's son, Charlie was at our place the other day.

28:11And so I had Charlie who's six. I had my youngest son who's three and I had our eldest son who's nine and we're all playing together and we're playing star Wars and we all had a lightsaber. I filmed the whole thing. I can show you guys later if you want. It's only 10 minutes. Um, yeah. And we had this scripted lightsaber battle. And so Charlie and my oldest were Luke Skywalker and Obi-Wan. Yep. And I asked Darth Vader and then we couldn't think of another evil character for my three-year-old to be that would have a lightsaber.

28:41So he was little Darth Vader. And they scripted it so they had music playing. So we had the stars and we scripted it so we bumped into each other in the hallway. And there was a few lines that we had back and forth. And we had it going. And every time we started, my three-year-old who didn't know what was going on would turn around and strike me down. And at first, I could see the frustration. frustration of Charlie and the old male Benji going, what the fuck?

29:07This is not... Why would little Darth Vader kill big Darth Vader? Probably would though too. He obviously knows the rules of the Sith. It's going to happen. It's the dark side. They don't care. Yeah, one has to usurp the other at some point. You've got to join that team. That's what's very apt. Anyway, the frustration on Charlie and Benji's face is quite evident. And we tried it a few times. We explained to him and said, no, you're on Daddy's team, so you don't kill him.

29:34And he'd go, okay. And we'd start again. He'd try and go, ah, and cut me in half. And in the end, it was like this – they decided to tolerate it and then they were flexible with it. So I said, okay, so big Darth Vader dies. So now – but you only die for five minutes and then you come back and then you kill all of us. And so that became – but that was so – They had to tolerate what wasn't perfect. And there's a three-year-old. There was the three-year-old who was ruining everything.

29:57He didn't know what was going on. But then the six- and the nine-year-old had to tolerate it and be tolerant. And then they had to come up with a new plan and be flexible. And I just think that's so much of life, really. Yeah. It is, but if you weren't around, that three-year-old would be ejected from that game. Or slay everyone. You don't have to catch him first. It's an interesting one because it's like so much of what we're talking about is kids playing.

30:24But if the rules hold for adults playing, it's just that adults don't play much. Yeah. We don't find ourselves in a scenario where we do this as much, I think, as we should where you have the same rules where it's like, all right, let's just imagine that this is happening and then, you know. No, you're right. Probably the closest that adults get is role-playing games. Yep. Pen and paper role-playing games. Yeah. I think that's why everyone loves like a night where you're playing like Dungeons and Dragons.

30:49Dungeons and Dragons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just you have to, there's an industry around it because you kind of have to I don't know, have some structure to say to parents or grown-ups, hey, it's okay to play here. Yeah, yeah. Like my wife and I, like we host the occasional party and we made a rule years ago to be like, let's never do a party that's not dress up because what's the, why? It's so much more fun if there's a theme because everyone comes and plays, like to some extent adopts a character, but there's a real atmosphere in the room because you don't get to do that as grown-ups very often.

31:21Yeah. I mean, it's a big part of kids play, right? Yeah. Yeah, because it's sort of like you just need a little thing to break the seal and you have permission. Yeah. And then I think there is under the surface a desire to play for people. Yeah, there definitely is. We've got this thing at the moment. I thought sort of play had left our family because, you know, our oldest now is 15 and my niece is now the youngest is – probably nine, but then there's this little five-year-old boy in there who's just sort of turned up, you know.

31:52Do you know him? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but it seemed like a lot of fun. We gave him a name. No, so he's the one boy in the whole six. There's six girls, all my brother's daughters, and then one boy. And so he has introduced Nerf to our life. I've just come off a big weekend in Nerf. Me and my brothers, we'd just go, why didn't we? This is the biggest parenting hack because we used to love playing war. Yeah. And so now we've got the six girls. They all want to be on their team.

32:27They're the ladies. And then the four boys, me and my brothers and Jack. Jack just thinks he's died and gone to heaven. We're called the Wolfpack and we just, we take over each of our houses, you know, every few weekends and then just blow the shit out of each other for three hours. And you keep fit and there's strategy. The kids learnt, Jack's learnt like call signs now, hand movements and stuff. Isn't it funny where you're like, if you broke that down and you're like, all right, what's going on in these games?

32:58It's like the structure's there. It's completely improvised because you've got to get a bullet in the head or not. And you're constantly doing trade-offs about do I use ammunition, do I not, like am I vulnerable? Yeah. And there's adrenaline to it. Oh, yeah. There's a heap of adrenaline because it feels risky, but it's so not. Yeah. You're pumped with adrenaline. But I think, too, it's that it's the, I don't know, it's kind of magic. In the same way like a water fight is or whatever, it's that it's battling, but a cartoon version of it.

33:29Yeah. I don't know. I think before I became a parent, I thought there would be heaps of opportunities to do things like this. I thought there'd be like a new game every day. But when you find one that works, it actually, there's less than you think and you do hold on to them, I reckon, like. Oh, definitely. Yeah. And this one, you know, everyone's older now, so it requires less of the imagination. There's no story to this really. But it's still play.

33:52It's still play. It still has all the rules, right, especially the six-year-old, right? It's like because there's an honour system, like, listen, if someone says you've got... hit and you've been hit. Yeah. But now I've got my gun, blah, blah, blah. Well, I had a real-life bluey moment because one of the first steps we did was Magic Xylophone where Bandit's frozen and he's got the feather bowler on and he looks a fool and he's out in the front yard and just a random passerby walks past and just gives him a look.

34:17Yeah. And me and my little nephew, I'd park the car down for an extra, like in front of the street. Yeah. And we were covering them. We were yelling instructions to each other and shooting and just some woman walked past with her stroll. Everything's fine here. We have a permit for this. We know the people in this house. I was just going to say on that, I had a similar experience when we do water. Like you can get these silicon reusable water balloons now.

34:47They're like two cups that come together. They're awesome. Oh, that's fun. And so we bought a bunch of them and some water pistols. And in summer, I had a massive water fight. And I live on the corner. So I had snuck out with like I'd loaded up heaps of water balloons and pistols. And it started like hoarding them on the outside of the property with a low. We've got like a one meter high fence. Yeah. And then I sort of commando crawled around so the kids couldn't see me to get around to the front into a hidden position with about 20 water balloons.

35:16I'd loaded up, ready to go. And then a guy started walking down the street and I was like lying, lying, getting underneath the fence with them all on me, looking like Rambo. And the guy was walking down and the kids were on the other side of the fence. And he looked at me and looked at the kids and he said, where's your old man? And they're like, oh, that's good. I don't know. He's like, yeah, he's not out here. And then he gave me a little high five.

35:37He's walking past. That's so good. Yes. Love it. Yeah. And I loved it. And I felt like for a lot of men, it's hard to, I think it's hard to play. Yep. And they find it very hard to join in and play. But this guy seemed desperate to join in. Yep. And I wondered if you had any insight on what it is that stops men from committing to play. Yep. Well, I mean, that's a public thing. Yeah, I don't know. Like other than it's just physically difficult to, I think, to stay undistracted, you know, and you have to when you're playing with these kids.

36:14And it is, you know, there's a mundane element to it. Other kids, it like plays for other kids, right? Like they don't have, there's just, it's joyful for them. It's a natural state. And we do grow out of that and we become conditioned and we, We've seen, you know, it's like the Born Yesterday episode, right? It's like we've seen leaves, you know, and even my kids now, you can chart the things that used to blow their mind. Yeah, I mean, just to jump in here for people who haven't seen the episode Born Yesterday.

36:45I actually watched it with my father yesterday who's a professor of public health and listening to his feedback on it was, most people go, oh, amazing episode. He said, it's just born of a brilliant hypothesis, this episode. The thesis here is, and it was terrific, his breakdown of it. But essentially it's the kids say, well, they learn the phrase, I wasn't born yesterday. And then they come up with the idea to band it. Well, let's play born yesterday and you have to pretend you were born yesterday.

37:11And he rediscovers, the beauty that surrounds him everywhere. And it's so funny, like so unbelievably funny, but just for those who don't know. Yeah, and he's forced into actually looking at things afresh again, you know, and it is quite, I can see it in my kids now, they're not fascinated by things, you know. When I come home now, it's only the dog that runs up to greet me now, you know, and it's all good. But... To answer your question, yeah, as we get older, it's just we have to move away from that state of just ease.

37:47Would it be maybe it's – I mean, they probably share a similar trait here where it's like it's almost like we get embarrassed by wonder as we get older. I reckon that's that teenage thing to be like, well, I'm not going to be fascinated by a leaf because I don't want people to think I've never seen a leaf. Like I think society sort of tells you to not be – not be in awe anymore. Like it's not cool to be in awe. You have to know what's going on. Like so much being a teenager is pretending you know what is going on all the time.

38:12You've got no fucking idea what's going on. So like he's been a good – I've had a good 10 years of my life just – squinting into the distance and pretending I knew what was going on while a cyclone of insecurity and questioning raged inside me. Yeah. And then maybe you get into adulthood and it's that same thing where you're like, all right, well, I'll just pretend to not be into things or not be in awe. But playing is giving you permission to go back into being excited and curious about things.

38:41Yeah. That's a great analysis, actually. And enthusiasm isn't cool at that age too. Which is heartbreaking to watch, but of course we all went through it. Yeah, it is heartbreaking, actually. Like being smart isn't cool and everything you want your kids to be. And everything you wish you could tell them, hey, by the time you're 25, this is all your wish you held on to is your uniqueness, your curiosity, all the things that make you special. Yeah.

39:08Please don't squash them. Yeah, because it will no longer be cool. At 25 and 35 and 45. To not care. To not care and not be, you know, enthusiastic. And maybe I did find having kids – kind of put that period of my life to bed. You know, you just care again, you care again, instantly daggy. No one's, you know, you, you're just not cool anymore. And, and so you did have freedom too. It's crazy. I don't know how I kept it. It's kind of great. I love it.

39:43I'm not having to be cool. No, it's great. I mean, I never can't say it was ever a big burden for me to carry. I don't think I was ever that cool. I don't miss what I never experienced. But, yeah, at least it's like now knowing I'll probably never play professional sports. I probably wasn't ever on the cards, but now we know for sure it's not going to happen. You run the experiment. This is a bit self-indulgent, but I feel like at some point in this chat I have to discuss my favourite episode of Blue Year, which I'm sure everyone wants to do to you when they meet you.

40:14But I just, for me, it's the episode Rain. which I have felt for quite a while is, and I've mentioned this before, that you get all the stuff when you have a child from a hospital, but I feel like for me personally, they should give you the episode rain to watch as well. Rain is an episode where Bluey keeps on, it's raining outside. Bluey is creating her own game with the rain, trying to dam it up, dam it up across the path. And she's going in and out of the house and Chile is trying to wipe her footprints.

40:46She's trying to give her a towel to stay dry. She's trying to impose, give her an umbrella. And I see myself in Chile, so much Chile being the mum of trying to just be like, Oh God, I'm going to have to clean this up afterwards. Trying to, trying to sanitise the game and not just stopping to see what's actually happening. And by the end of the episode, Chile has not only stopped to see what Blue is doing, but ends up participating and they have this beautiful moment It reminds me that the most important thing for me as a parent is to stop and just meet the child where they're at.

41:22And you might discover the most amazing moment of your day. But if you keep trying to impose your own shit on them, you'll miss it all. Very similar experiences in my life that brought that up about. Just dropping, kind of just giving up and surrendering. As soon as I would... I don't know, you just feel that internal resistance and that this should be going down this road. Kids at this age are meant to be doing this and should be doing that. And then you just realise that it doesn't matter.

41:52I can't tell this kid to do this. They're just doing this at the moment. This is how they are. And as soon as, I don't know, it's like you just, it's like a feeling of, you know, I don't know Letting go of something Yeah I suppose it's that feeling Where you go This imposition of rules Isn't doing anything For either of us No It's not keeping the house clean And they're not Turning around going Oh god Thanks for reining me in there I was having way too much fun outside Yeah But like My only title version of that Was like Remember I remember Like we moved into a new house about four years ago and the kids were still in bath age and there was splash water all over the floors.

42:32And maybe because I'm like, oh, this is a brand new bathroom. And it's tiles. I'd be like, guys, guys, guys, look at the floor. Like you're getting the bathroom so wet. Yeah. And I was like, what the fuck am I talking about? It's tiles. But it wasn't in the moment. It was like a year later where it would happen again. And I'd get annoyed. I'd be like, guys, look at this. There's a huge problem. Did you not notice this was happening? And after this, I'm like, what?

42:57What a pointless thing to care about. It's a tile. They're not dissolvable if they are. We picked the wrong tiles. But at the same time, it's like why step in and enforce something on those kids who are having, you know, one of the funnest times you can have in your life, which is sliding back and forth in the bath. If there's no danger. And it came because me and my brothers, we used to have up in Cairns when we were kids, we had one boxing glove, one set of boxing gloves, so we'd put one on each, right?

43:28I can see the link. And pound the crap out of each other in the front room there and there was this pot plant in a cane thing near the door and like once a week we would knock it over on white carpet thing there. Mum would come out and back when you could hit your kids, she'd line us up on the rhubarb of the Ford Falcon and give us the feather duster, right? Yeah. which, you know, it wasn't properly hitting. It's the boxing love of sticks. Yeah, yeah.

43:52It's got padding. It was bright pink, so the whole thing was sort of a... Ceremonial. Yeah, yeah. But it was, you know, you knew you were in trouble. And years later I said, Mum, you know, how important to you was that pot plant by the front door? Because we lived in fear of knocking it over, but we would knock it over once a week. And the whole, you know... thing would just repeat. I said, why didn't you just move it out just for five years? Just move it out.

44:22She said, yeah, probably should have. Yeah. And. Because we're in our ways. Like we, and I suppose just, you know, you're trying to exercise a tiny bit of control over the world. I think at the end of the day, and that's why I like rain, because it's a rhetorical question, right? It came from, you know, um, It's just you can't stop water from damming. No matter how good you build that little dam in the gutter, it's like water always going to get through.

44:50And it was sort of like that with the kids. It's like, yes, three boys, they should follow what you do. They should. But it's like we also, you can't stop us trying to beat the shit out of each other. For whatever reason at that age, you may as well have been trying to dam up something. Yeah, yeah. So better to facilitate that. Yeah. Yeah, thanks for mentioning that. That's where that app came from. Yeah, it's a cracker. Yeah, thank you. I love the inspiration behind that.

45:20I'm also keen to hear the inspiration behind Fruit Bat. So Fruit Bat essentially is, Bluey decides that she would love to be a Fruit Bat because they don't have to sleep at night. And before she goes to bed that night, she sees... And Bandit, he's on the ground and he's having a dream that he's playing touch footy with his mates. And I've never known if he was actually asleep or he was pretending to be asleep to make her laugh. I wasn't sure. Oh, no, he's asleep.

45:44Okay, great. Yeah, it was very good. And so then she has a dream that she's a fruit bat and then she flies over Bandit who's actually playing in the dreams, playing touch footy with his mates. And in the morning when she comes downstairs, he's doing sit-ups to prepare himself for one day when he can actually have time and space to pick up his hobbies again. And it's an episode about sacrifice. And I have to say, every time I watch that, I feel guilty.

46:08I feel really guilty. And I didn't quite understand where my guilt came from. At surface level, I thought, maybe I haven't sacrificed enough of my running. Like, I still run all the time. I don't miss many training sessions. And I thought, gosh, maybe I'm not sacrificing enough. But the other day I watched it and I saw Chilly sitting on the couch and she's taping up her hockey stick. And it made me think of Penny. And it made me think about my guilt comes from the fact that Penny has sacrificed so much for us to have kids, to have three kids.

46:39We didn't realise we're going to have the extra challenges attached to parenthood, our particular version of parenthood. Penny is so focused on her career, or she was, and she just hasn't been able to for the last nine years. And I realised the guilt I feel when I watch that is that, and I think this is the case for so many people, not just mums or dads, but you do give up a lot and you do sacrifice a lot and you're sort of waiting, you're taping up your hockey stick or you're doing sit-ups to be ready at some point when it's your turn again.

47:08Mm-hmm. but I think a lot of my guilt is that Penny has – we've tried everything, but schools will still call her when something's gone wrong or appointments, even though we'll leave my number, and they'll always find her number and she's going to fill out the form, and she sacrificed a lot for our family. And I – yeah, it's a brilliant episode again. Yeah, I never thought – yeah, I never thought the – Yeah, that's really interesting. I never thought about that when I was reading it.

47:40That's why I like Chilly taping her hockey stick up since she obviously doesn't get to play as much as she wanted to. But, yeah, it's a war zone and it's not always even, is it? We went through a similar sort of thing with Suze. Yeah. The bit I love about that ep is that they meet in their dream, you know, and bandit's totally okay with the sacrifice, but it's like both of them, you know, well, there's no resentment to the kids, you know what I mean?

48:11And it's just this thought of, you know, I'll get back there one day, but for now this is what I'm doing and this is you're important to me. And, yeah, let's say – And it does change now. My kids are older. It's like all those things come back. And for my wife, all the things she wants to do is come back and she's discovered painting and so her life's changed. But, yeah, while it was happening, it was a war zone, all right? I just have this two inches in my head and I feel like, I don't want to put words in your mouth, Josh, but I feel like you have been very inspired by Bandit.

48:45Absolutely. The image I have in my head is you very hungover on our trampoline at home with four kids in a circle playing Ring and Ring and Roses, like so hungover. And then they became fixated on trying to take your pants off. Yeah. And you were just, I've never seen a more hungover man deal with that. But you kept playing. You were trying to hang on to your parents, but you're also – the game kept moving despite how hungover you were. And then I remember soon after that at your place going down to the pizza to get pizza down the road and you were carrying two of the kids and the other two decided they wanted to be carried as well.

49:20One of them being my, at that time, seven-year-old son. And all of a sudden I was walking behind you and I had this – I was very emotional because I had this incredible, I'll never forget the silhouette of you in front of me. like holding four kids at great, it was incredibly difficult to do, but you just kept doing it because it's what they wanted to do and they were loving that experience. And it was very moving to watch because I was like, God, you are such an amazing dad.

49:45And I know you've got such huge inspiration from Bandit. It's not even a question. I want to say it in front of Joe basically. Well, to put, yeah, I mean, my back's never been the same since I did that run down the street with those four kids. Four kids? Mate, I wouldn't even do one. It's wrecked my back forever, but it was worth it for the joy it gave me. Yeah, my back was going to be ruined at one point anyway. No, I think it's important for me to say to you and everyone who has made Bluey that I don't think my kids would have the dad that they have.

50:19if Bluey wasn't around. I think I was one of those people that I think I was always looking forward to being a dad and really excited about it. But as we all know, as dads, you don't get any kind of handbook on how to do it, you get all that information about birth and the breastfeeding triad and all that kind of stuff that the hospital gives you. But then when all that initial shine of the new child wears off, you're kind of on your own and terrified and stressed.

50:52And I think that the amount of times that I have not only bonded with them just watching Bluey but I've been lying in bed thinking you stuffed up today. Yeah. I reacted poorly or I – there's a – this is very shameful to admit, but there's a – on our kitchen table at home, there's an outline of scissors from when I was like trying to balance – I was so exhausted and one of my children had already tipped over like so many things, wrecked so many things.

51:25I got them a glass of water and they just looked at me and tipped it on the ground again. And I had this scissors in my hand and I smashed it on the table and yelled at them. And I feel like I see that outline in the table as a reminder of the mistake I made as a parent every day when I have dinner. And I'll never forget the look on their face. It was like they, because they were two and a half, three at the time, and I hadn't gotten through to them.

51:48And I got through to them out of fear. And it was the worst feeling I've ever felt because they felt scared of me for a moment because of what I did. But then I lie in bed thinking about what could I do better the next day and I honestly think how would Bandit roll? Like what would he do the next day? And it gives me the energy to think of a game and before I know it, me and that boy who was scared of me, looks at me with like the other day we played and i had to go and then i left the house and he opened the door and chased after me and hugged me and said i love you dad and it was one of those i'll never forget that look and i don't think i would have been able to recover from the mistakes i made as a parent without bluey so thank you yeah uh well much appreciated yeah gosh it's um Yeah, I mean, I don't know what to do with things like that.

52:38You know, it's a byproduct of me just putting my life, you know, into a cartoon and tried to be as honest as possible and as forgiving as possible, I suppose, of myself. And, you know, I can guarantee you I can tell you three or four stories exactly like that with my kids. it's overwhelming to hear things like that. I almost have to keep it at bay. And I do think, I don't know, I'm better to draw on pictures than words in these situations. Well, maybe you don't need to respond to it.

53:13I'll take a picture. I really appreciate it. But I think you do a great job of You know, I know obviously it's a huge to hear things like this and you must hear it a lot, but it connects with people so, so deeply. It's such a beacon for people who want to be better. I think what Bandit has taught a lot of dads and Chilly as well. I love Chilly. I think as a parent figures, they... I think they reinforce something that I hold dear, but I think they reinforce the idea that doing something just for fun is a really valid reason to do something.

53:56You should do things just for fun because there's joy in it. And, like, that's it, full stop. Just do something for fun because fun is how we connect and joy is how we connect. And what you said before, Hugh, I thought was so pertinent to, like, it's connection through attention. Yeah. Joy is just so pure. Like doing things just for fun is just such a pure reason to do things. And I think that's what parents find when they're inspired by Bluey. And that's the connection.

54:21And it feels priceless to us as parents because we're like, ah, this is what I was after. Just something simple and joyful. That's what we want to have with our kids. We want that connection through joy and doing something just for fun. I agree with that. I think – This researcher, he's saying all the benefits of these kids at play and he just says, I remember one, he just says, it just seems intrinsically joyful to them. And he didn't have an explanation as to why or whatever it is.

54:52He just said they seemed to like it. You know, that's why even like going bike riding for the day, for any families that have done that before or bushwalking, I think you feel alive because that was our only goal for today was to do something really simple and just for fun. We didn't go on a bike ride because we had to take my tax return to the accountant and, like, it was something I had to get done. Yeah, or we're trying to get these steps up or this or that.

55:15Yeah, yeah. It's just living. It's just that you get back in touch with kind of the point of life. Yeah, I agree. And we were just talking about it before, but it's also there's something joyful about solving problems. You know, like so much of what the kids do when they're playing is problems. So much of making Bluey's problems and work is just these problems. There's something joyful about having a problem and solving it. It's almost that's just like that's the building blocks of play and all that.

55:40Do you think that's important when you go into that next phase of childhood, let's say like preteen and then into teenage years? Yes, there's less imagination, but there's no shortage of problems to solve creatively. And does that kind of, does that almost step into the breach as the evolution of those kids? I hope so. A lot of the problems that I've seen my kids face, and I guess I've faced at that age too, is personality stuff, right? Like, and a kid, you know, kid will come home and say, well, look, this kid is sort of like this and they're having a problem with this kid or whatever.

56:12Right. And the best moments that my wife and I have had is when our kid will sort of identify that this kid's being a bit too dominant or whatever, you know, and I don't really want to be involved in that. No, that's – I mean, that's what we all want as parents to see, like agency in our kids. Yeah. The ability to make good decisions. Yeah. Yeah, in relation to other kids, you know. There's obviously everything we're scared of or I'm scared of that will come in through the teenage years.

56:45Usually, you know, it doesn't rain from the sky. It'll come in through another kid. It leaks in through the door. Yeah. You know, marijuana does grow on trees, I guess, but someone will... Bring it in through the door. Yeah. But it's often, yeah, it can often come in through the letterbox too. Yeah. It's not smoked on trees. And so, yeah, what we've always been trying to do is just raise kids who, you know, are pretty adept at reading situations and other people and making good decisions.

57:20But, yeah, look, I love Ben and I'm really proud of, I think he is a good role model and Chile. And I think what I love about him is we're talking about cool, they're not too cool. They're like, we're trying our best to be good parents here because this is important. And then I will sacrifice any dignity. I have, you know, I'll play this game or whatever because we're trying to be our best at this. I don't know if you said this or I didn't invent this, but someone said it to me and it's always stuck with me.

57:49It's like a lot of the time with playing with kids, It's not so much what you're doing is like you're the game. The fact that you're there, you're the game, like for them in that moment. With little kids, that's what they'll remember. They'll remember the action of you just being involved. You don't have to be good. You just have to be there. Oh, you're like a celebrity. We had a pool. I'd never had a pool growing up, right, but we went in Brizzy.

58:13We had a pool when the kids, maybe they were six or seven, and – You know, they were obsessed with pool games. A lot of the bluey pool games came from this, right? They would be three-hour sessions of, like, games where, you know. You can say grueling. They were grueling. And then the whole game when you went to get out, they were like, no, and they'd chase you down. And then if you eventually got out, they would say, all right, handshake, you know, well done, and then, of course, you'd jump back in.

58:45It was full on, but I remember every now and then I just wanted to swim. I wanted to just lie there and I would sneak into the pool, like just not even making a splash, but eventually you would. Like a crocodile just about to. Yeah, yeah. 100%. Sliding in, but you would splash something and then you'd just hear this, he's in the pool. And you were. You were like this celebrity. It's like, whoa, he's come, you know. Yeah, yeah. His dad's playing with us.

59:14He's got free time. Yeah, yeah. Get it. It'd be like, yeah, like Mission Impossible. You'd just go, you'd see the drop hit the thing. I can detect one drop of cold water from a mile away. I find myself, I love that so much. And that feeling of being like, I am required for gameplay 24-7. But recently I'm feeling really shameful because I've just found myself, as you just said, just wanting a bit of not play. Yeah. Like I just need a little bit of like I can't go from one game to the next game to the next game.

59:54Like my wife, Sophie, will say, you can say no. Like you can say no and dad needs to do this. But I find I cannot... Physically say no. And I feel guilty if I do say no because there's this thing saying one day they're never going to ask you to play again and you just turn it down so you could, I don't know, hide in the toilet and swipe through YouTube for 10 minutes. And it feels so shameful. The presence thing and the distractions thing that we've brought up a few times today is...

1:00:23I think is the hardest thing for me to overcome. My phone broke about a month ago and I didn't really want to get like a brand new one. So I decided to buy a refurbished one online and that takes like five days to arrive. So I actually had no phone for five days, which was... I would say my best, the first two or three were really hard. The last couple, two of the best days I've had this year. And as anyone who has young kids would know, the bedtime routine is just gruelling every night and facing it sometimes like, I just can't fucking do one more.

1:01:00Like I've gone over the top. I looked at the phone call me the other night. It was like, I can't do it. I can't do it. What can I do anymore? I can't do it. Sometimes it's all right without even talking about it. And I do, I acknowledge that this is a luxury that you have as a two-parent house. One of us just won't turn up. Do you know how bad it is? Maybe it's specific to only having two or one. Like, I don't think I'd do it with three. Yeah. But I'll be in, and they're a little bit old now, so, like, thanks, but we're still in with both at bedtime.

1:01:29And so our daughter, Rue's eight. And, like, I'll be reading with Rue. And be like, I can't hear Zoe in Sunny's room. And I've done it too. Where like, she's like, all right, come on down, like start with teeth. And we're breaking your teeth. And then you're just upstairs and you're like, just wait a bit. And then sometimes you just give yourself one bedtime off. Yeah. And it's so allowed. But I'll just go and, you know, I'll be with Roo and there's like the whole performance.

1:01:54Yeah, scratch my back, scratch my tummy. Yeah. Rue's just, I mean, we call it resisting arrest. Like she's just so many excuses to get out of bed. Yeah, yeah. And then I'll go like, yeah, she's just taken one off. And I've done the same many times too. You just sit that one out, did you? Mate, I was just cooked. I'll duck in at the end for the final, for the curtain call. I'll duck in at the end for when the lights are off. For the kids. Then, like, finally we're landing the plane.

1:02:25Yeah. Which you need to do, man. Yeah. Calypso, who played the teacher, she wants to say, look, you know, you're busy. You've got things to do. Like, kids... Play with them when you can, but you're busy. I feel like Bluey doesn't... One of the things is Bluey does just show a dad and a mum willing to drop everything at any time. But you've just said the reality. You know that these kids are going to get old and there is that guilt. I think as long as that's where it comes from and not guilt like, oh, this is what I'm meant to be doing or whatever.

1:02:58Yeah. Yeah, no, for me it comes from the fact that one day I won't get to do this. But... To finish on the distraction thing, I had no phone. Bedtime came around and because I had no distractions, I came up with a game which was that the kids were all like spies and they have to get from the bedroom into bed and, like in their pyjamas without making a single noise that mum would hear. So they don't know, she doesn't know what's going on. Yeah. And then it developed into code words that I had to like yell out to mum that gave them permission to like scurry down the hallway.

1:03:35That's awesome. And it gave her the night off and it allowed them to get all the way into books without any friction. But I would not have come up with that game if I had my phone. Interesting. It's a bandwidth thing, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, and it's become a thing that we – it's a regular thing now and we're switching who's the spy and who's the one getting a night off. And it's purely because I didn't have a phone. I like that, man. I literally, as you were telling the story, went – in my head I was like, I'm going to get rid of my phone.

1:04:04And I was like – They can't, though. And it just ended up right back at square one. Go ahead. I was like, I don't want to go through the whole rhyme. It's a dumb phone debacle. So annoying for everyone else. I was just going to say on this, and I... Years ago, I was at the park with our mum and my son, and our son was going through a stage where he only did the slide. That was just the slide, up and down, up and down, up and down. And I was trying so hard to – because at that point in my life, I was running around Australia telling people to not be on their phones as part of my business project talks.

1:04:38And so I was really trying very – I could feel the battle of like, I'm getting bored, I'm getting bored. Mum's entertaining him. And I got my phone out and I just looked at it, and I got a very disapproving look from mum. And I got quite defensive. I said, no, I'm just checking emails. And she said, well, I'm sure it's very important if it needs to be ahead of this. I sort of looked at my son and said, And she said, yeah, it's not even really the child that I feel sorry for.

1:05:05It's actually you. And then she said, when I was your age and you were his age, she said, I saw everything you saw. I smelled everything you smelled. I heard everything you heard because I was there with you fully. And because of that, now in my 70s, I am filled with so many incredible moments of joy. She said, I can't walk past the jasmine bush now without... feeling this absolute pang of joy because when you were little, you were just obsessed with the smell of jasmine bush.

1:05:28I'm constantly reminded of things from your kids because I was there with you. But you and your generation of parents are not going to get that. You're not going to get that because you're not fully there. And it had a massive impact on me. But I do think that sentiment comes through with so many episodes of Bluey. Josh, you pointed out the bin night, like the last line in bin night. For those who haven't seen bin night, the episode is basically, yeah, it's been a taking the bin out every night with the girls coming with him.

1:06:03And he checks in with them. And he always asks, the running thing is, how's Kinder today, Bingo? And she's able to talk about some trouble she's having another kid. At the end, right at the end of the episode, Bluey's thing is always asking what she could be when she grows up. And she says, I might be a scientist. And she said, I might invent a robot to take the bin out for you, Dad. And he says, I hope not. I'm referring to, and it was just amazing.

1:06:25It was the very last line as they're walking off into the distance behind the house. And I just, the moments of connection, you often don't know when they're going to come. And they're not, when we think of creating family rituals, like, well, do this for Christmas, do this for Easter. That's not so much connection. I don't think it's little rituals like that. It's little things like that. And they're the things that I do worry that this generation of parents are missing.

1:06:50And, yes, it's sad for us, as my mum pointed out, but I do think about the kids and what they miss out on there. Oh, man, we're all screwed. Absolutely. And myself included. Your mum's 100% right. There's... Yeah, that attention span is just, I, me, my kids, my wife, we just give it over to the search, I call it, because... You know, really I learned that the chemical that gives the enjoyment, it's not so much, say, YouTube, it's not so much finding, you know, watching this video, my golf video that I want to watch.

1:07:31It's just that active searching. Maybe that's the one I need. But it's the searching of what could be next. Yeah, for whatever reason, that's the way our brains work, that it's comfort in something great might be coming, you know, and so you search, you scroll, you scroll, and it's just this, that's the bit that's enjoyable, you know. That's comforting and enjoyable because, you know, it's like, I don't know why. Pokies, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

1:08:00You know, like no one, the full-on slot jockeys, they're not going, if I can just retire, you know, if I can win enough, then I can get on with my dreams. They're just, it's, I enjoy this little release of, Or I'll come to depend on it. My only hope is that it's that this generation of my kids, they have to go through this to realise it. Yeah. No corrects. Yeah. It's like us looking back at photos of everyone smoking somewhere. And we're like, oh, my God, look at everyone.

1:08:30Everyone was just smoking. Yeah. And it's like, oh, my God, look at everyone. They're on their phones. I worry it's not going to be the case. It's true, though, because we're so strict on phone rules, like at the dinner table or whatever. It's interesting. Our kids have phoned police because obviously they don't have phones. They're little. And, you know, to the point where I am, you know, like when a cop's taken off the case, they have to hand in their badge and gun.

1:08:53If I am going to the toilet, the kids are like, give us your phone. Like, turn it in. I'm like, I'll be quick. And they're like, yeah, well, let's have it. So I'm like, this is great because, you know, I guess I'm like I'm annoyed because I did want to quickly go on the phone. But I, and I would have been very quick. But are you keeping them in the sister now? You go in for a burner phone. No SIM card, just Instagram. I've got a PC in the toilet on a bench.

1:09:28But I'm like, great. There is a glimmer of hope there because I think for families, and we're certainly not the only ones that have developed this awareness of like, okay, well, we obviously don't have phones at the table, we don't do screens in bedrooms, you start to develop like screen-aware rules in the house that you're like, maybe, just maybe, this generation grows up and they're like, okay. we don't like phones because we don't like it when mum and dad are on them and we don't want to.

1:09:52And they're at least framing it with some of the downfall, like some of the negatives, rather than just them being this golden shimmering oasis on the horizon that they just can't wait to get one of. Yeah. And... And it's not even a punitive thing. They end up realising they experience how this feels. Yeah, for someone else. And they go, you know, I'm sick of this feeling, you know, because I do think you get sick of just being in that search mode.

1:10:20The searching makes you feel good, but eventually you realise I'm not finding anything. No, we also hate ourselves for it. And you also get off and go, I can't remember anything I saw. Yeah. At all. Yeah. And that golf fix didn't work, you know. God damn it. But there might be one more. Yeah. But every now and then you have those real tangible experiences and, you know, like you say, they're harder to, for me anyway, I've found them they take more time and they require patience.

1:10:47They require everything that the phone isn't. But when they do happen, they're realer. It feels like real living. This is what our brains are meant to be doing. Proper food. Yeah, I was going to say the food thing. I'm like, it feels like it's all junk food that is not filling me. There's no satiation. Satiation? Is that the word? You've just got to get rid of that second S in your home. Satiation? Yeah, satiation. Satiation. Okay. I should probably know the words I'm going to use on the podcast.

1:11:16You've been great with the other ones. You're almost flawless. Yeah, but you have that moment of connection or a game that works or just the right look from your child and that's like the most fulfilling meal you'll ever have. It's the best. And I go back to these nerf wars we have, like everyone finishes exhausted and you just know... There's no phones involved. The kids and the girls have now got walkie-talkies. For combat. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, awesome.

1:11:48They can now report, okay, Uncle Dan's dead. He's in the kitchen, run around. Awesome. In the Nerf battles, do you have to stay down if you're in shot? Yeah, yeah. For extra realism? Yeah, yeah. Stay down. You can reload. Reload. When you're down? Yeah. When you're dead? Yeah, just because that then makes the next round go a bit sooner. Oh, of course, you've got to refill the gun. Can you steal weapons off downed people? I tried to take one of the girl's unicorn guns one time and the screaming...

1:12:17was next level. Especially because they were dead too. Yeah. Zombie screaming. Yeah. I'm just interested in the rules here. Can rigor mortis set in so you can hold on? It's a tear gun very tight. Weird, realised weird. It's funny when you violate a rule that no one realised was a rule. That's why. Don't touch the girl's guns. But this feels like we're eating proper food again. And I guess to add to that, like the effort required to play is high. So if you're already exhausted and you're a single parent and you're just doing it on your own, it must be so hard to commit and actually do the play that's required.

1:12:57I suppose the reason, like all this stuff we're talking about, the distractions, like, yes, there's the phone distraction, but it's also the life distraction. You're like, okay, well, there's washing. There's always shit that needs to be done around the house. You are usually taking a calculated decision to leave that for the time being to play because we want to be there for our kids and we want the benefits of playing. But it's not like you only, no one kind of, just plays at the end of the task list.

1:13:26Otherwise you would never play. And for single parents, you know, obviously you can, we're not in that position, but we can imagine like that task list is doubled because you don't have someone else helping buy you even a sliver of time to take that time to go and get on the floor. Yeah. Well, I'll say two things. One is that I have to just, it's just my bluey creative guilt that the ideal is kids playing with other kids. If you've got time to play with your own kids, then there's obviously nothing wrong with that.

1:14:04But the ideal is to get them into situations where they're playing with other kids because they're equals, right? And they all want to do the same thing. And a big part of that, kids are just completely observant, right? So if you have zero time to play with your kids and all they see you do is working around the house and doing this and that, that's them watching you. And then I can guarantee you that will then feed in the next day at kindy or whatever, preschool, to their play session.

1:14:33They'll play house or they'll play play. whatever your job is, and they will be putting... Sorry, I know you meant that as an example. You sort of looked at me and I'm like, yeah, what is my job? I thought you looked at me and went, whatever your job is. Yeah. Well, my kids are trying to figure it out with me as well. And so they're watching you and you're sort of part of their play even though you don't know it because they will be recreating you and if you're a mother or father, then you're showing them what a mother or father does and then they go the next day and they say, right, well, I'm now a – I'm going to be dad and I'm doing this and that.

1:15:16So you might not be down on the floor with him, but you are doing a pretty essential part. You're modelling for it. You're modelling it, yeah. I feel like it's on that thing that the dream is kids playing together. I'm only getting to the age. I'm not getting to the age. I've been able to play with kids with other people for a long time. My kids are only getting to the age now where we can have kids around for a play date for a few hours and they can play together And I feel like that's been one of the biggest parenting hacks I've ever realised is like, oh, they just play together.

1:15:46And I can do my thing and I can clean the house and I can do the things that needed to be done. Exactly. More kids is easier than less. Which is the opposite of having kids. More is harder. Yes. And when you put them together. With other people's kids. With other people's kids, more is easier somehow. Yeah. Magic. And I think if we could... If we could wind it back a few decades or whatever where the kids just lived on the street and, you know, obviously it went with the downsides.

1:16:14But – and families were bigger. Yeah. So there just were just tons of kids around. I do – you know, in our own little microcosm, for various reasons, like it's hard to get kids together sometimes. I reckon a lot of people in this day and age, especially as you're starting to get into that like late primary school – It just isn't what we had in the 80s, which is come home, be home by dark. Like come home, chuck your school bag aggressively at the foot of the kitchen table and get on your bike and be home by dark.

1:16:44Play with the neighbours. So much... so much just acres and acres of like just random time. Have you tried to explain that to your kids, that phenomenon? It's wild to go to them, hey, guys, we would not home after school. No one had ever heard of an extracurricular activity. We barely did intracurricular activities. So I was like... I mean, I think I was saying this earlier. We watched AT with them last year and there's a bit in AT where they discover the alien.

1:17:09They're like, well, we're going to stay home from school and look after this alien we found. And spoiler alert, if you haven't seen it. But the kids are about our kids' age. They're like, you know, you're six or seven maybe. And then the scene was like, okay, well, I feel sick. And mum's like, okay, well, you know, I got to go. And I was like, guys, you know, that's what used to happen when we were sick. you, like, mum and dad had to go to work, and so I was like, well, there's cordial in the fridge, and my phone number, like, call this number if you start to die.

1:17:43But other than that, you just walked around the house, looked through their room, looked through mum and dad's wardrobe, watched Ricky Laker. some coins off the top of it. Yeah, just learn about American culture through daytime television. I was like, oh, okay, so there's a lot of paternity fights going on. People aren't sure who their dad is in America. And then, yeah, just have a Barocca. Just wait until they got home. Better or worse? Better. Yeah.

1:18:10To the point where I almost wanted to introduce at the school, and I didn't, so again, no follow through on this idea. I was going to call it like 80s club or something, where it's like we do a rotating voluntary parent system, where it's like we're just going to the park near the school and there's no plan, but the kids just have to go to the park for two hours and we might take a few random balls or whatever. And the role of the parent is just basically to make sure they don't get kidnapped.

1:18:37And then, but just don't, you don't have to play with them. Don't interact. Yeah. Just be there. And, and there's like a Creek and like a bit of bushland and stuff. I was like, just go and be and see what happens. There was a guy in Silicon Valley, uh, you know, techie sort of dude years ago, and his idea, he called them playbouhards, right, and he wanted to create, somehow create neighbourhoods that were like the 80s again where they were physically structured so that, I don't know, maybe our backyards were all interconnecting or whatever, that were like that, that you've built his physical environment around that idea.

1:19:15I think it's so worth talking about, and especially with the single parent component of this, You know, we are talking so much about how we feel as parents and we're wanting to play and how do we foster this. But you're right. Like, we can't be another kid and they need other kids. Yep. And it's what we noticed a lot in COVID. Everyone had various experiences. But I was like, you know, Sunday was like in year one at the time. And I think that's what he missed.

1:19:41I was like, he needs to be a dickhead, to be honest, but surrounded by other dickheads. Yeah, yeah, totally. And I can be a bit of a dickhead, but I'm not a good seven-year-old one. I'm just a 40-year-old trying to be a seven-year-old dickhead. But he needs real dickheads. Real dickheads. Like, I'll throw this rock at that thing. And just like, it's like, you know. We can't fully give them what other kids can give them because just by being there, we ruin.

1:20:13It's like by observing. Is that the Heisenberg principle? By observing it, we ruin it. Yeah. So if anyone needed like a particle physics analogy, but... But you just – I lament that a bit. I don't really have the solution, but I think it's such a good point too because if it is that – there is that single parent thing that we've got so much on, I'm just like, well, there is a whole – other kids do the job. Other kids are what they need. And those other kids need your kids.

1:20:41Yeah, I agree. I agree. I'd love it if somehow we all – and that's sort of what Pass the Parcel is about really. It's just like, look, everyone – this will work. Yeah, the episode Pass the Parcel, yeah. The episode Pass the Parcel. This will work if everyone decides to do it. But it's no good just sending your kid out onto the street. Everyone else is – the kid across the road needs to be on the street too. Yeah. Like – I'd love it. You know, I heard something, one of the NASA guys saying a lot of their intake people at the moment, genius, you know, all top of the unis and all that, but they have no practical skills and they said the people we used to hire at NASA were the kids who would take apart a radio and put it back together with their hands, you know, and it was just that.

1:21:30There's something analogue that I think we've lost. And you'd also argue, I'm sure if you're hiring people for NASA, you need to be pretty good at living in a tin can with someone for four months. Yep. Like you need a bit of play. Pretty high level of play and social skills. Yeah, yeah. Just if you're bored, you take his, you know. Don't take apart that. We need that. That's how we ran into the atmosphere. At least if you do, put it back exactly.

1:21:54We'll find you a less critical component you can tinker with. There's a few episodes I want to bring up there. I'm conscious of time, but just things that have really stood out to me. One thing I think I've told you before, I had the great pleasure of when I was living with and working with the Queensland State of Origin side, that's when the Origin episode came out. The State of Origin episode came out. What's it called? The Decider. That's it. Yeah, sorry.

1:22:18Yeah. I said, we're going to watch it. And all the players and coaches who were dads. That's amazing. And so we all watched, actually watched The Decider with the Queensland State of Origin dads, which is just the most surreal but wonderful experience. But what I wanted to tell you about, I don't think I've ever told you, which is so funny, is that when that episode finished, another episode came, and we kept watching it. No way. No one said, like, missed training.

1:22:43We lost that year. Yeah. Thanks a lot, Joe. And, yeah, I remember it's a very, very manly group of men, but the episode that came on afterwards was Facey Talk. Facey Talk? Yeah. Yeah, Facey Talk. And there's just a moment that I, that's the most I've cried watching Bluey and the most I've cried in a long time. And I was with the manliest men you'll ever see, but I don't think I was alone. where Facey Talk is brilliant. It basically is the adventure of two families FaceTiming, the kids FaceTiming each other.

1:23:20You can see the parents in the background going about their family life. But it brings up, there's a particularly challenging child in one of the families, and it highlights the difficulties of parenting a, what's the word, just a really challenging child. and you can see the parents discussing different approaches to parenting in the background, and it turns into a bit of an argument And the kids are still FaceTiming, drawing all over the screen.

1:23:49But in the background, you see the parents reconciling their differences and hugging. I just, I mean, I was inconsolable on a beanbag surrounded by the manliest men in Australia. And I was like, oh, this has really got me. And I don't want to be seen to be crying this much here. But then I realized I wasn't alone. And I haven't told that yet. But there's a brilliant moment because parenting, even without challenging kids, is incredibly challenging.

1:24:20And any difference you have in parenting approach or philosophies around parenting, the more strange you are, the more tired you are, the more exhausted you are, the more that they sort of just exaggerate on themselves. and you do find yourself having moments where you're just disagreeing, but then the challenge is to come back together and coming back together for the kids and in that moment. And it was just a very special moment, and I think you captured that so incredibly well.

1:24:48Wow. Again, it's not a question, and I know you're uncomfortable. No, no, no. So we're just going to say things to you, and you don't need to say anything back. No, and I love the line soon after Trixie and Stripe have sorted it out that they're then coordinating how to capture Muffin and Bluey yells, watch out Muffin, they're working together. Yes, that's it. Would have been better if I'd recited that line for you. That's exactly, it's incredible.

1:25:14It's an incredible moment. Yeah, I saw that video. I think one of those was filmed of, a separate one was filmed showing the origin plays. Yeah, it was really quite... Especially, you know, because you do think of, you know, rugby league players as like, you know, that's the sort of manly sort of men of things. But that's the thing. I think it doesn't matter, you know, like that's all the external shell of these guys. Like they present to the world in really different ways.

1:25:42But anyone that's a dad... also was a little boy as well and has that inside them and is like, boom, straight back in touch with what it feels to be a little boy and all the things that brings up with them. So I think that's sort of what we're talking about with, you know, play as well and wonder. It is there for a lot of people. Just sometimes it depends how far below the surface it is. I think it also gives people the idea, like I think there are a lot of dads, I'm saying on behalf of dads, but I'm sure it's for mums as well, a lot of people wanting to do it, wanting to play, but it's really hard to come up with ideas.

1:26:18And I am shocked at like the amount of times I've gone to a playground and started playing a game or heard someone playing a game. And there's been many times where the kids have introduced games to me and I haven't seen that episode of Bluey and I thought they'd come up with the game. Then I see other kids playing, I'm like, hang on, that was our game. What did they do? They didn't know about Shadowlands. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But I think it's because I think we've talked about the challenges of parenting quite a lot today and I want to acknowledge to everyone that we're all struggling.

1:26:49We're all finding it really hard and it's not... judgment on anyone who is on their phone too much because I'm as guilty as anyone. But one of the things when you are stressed and you are not paying attention is coming up with the ideas of what we can do next. And Bluey, through Bandit and Chilly, have given just ideas that you can pull off the shelf. that you can incorporate and then suddenly you're in it and you're halfway there and you can come up with your own ideas and develop that game into your own thing.

1:27:16But it's a remarkable thing to have for people who are already, who are struggling and doing it really tough. I think 80% of it's just stepping back and letting them drive. Yeah. Like in the imagination stuff and being, and like I think a pull, noticing where your kids are being pulled is like all we want is where our kids are being pulled to something. Yeah. You know, I think we're all the same. We don't care what it is. We just want them to be into something.

1:27:42Sometimes a good, a relieving thing to remember for that pressure we put on ourselves is Sometimes it's actually just about letting go of trying to come up with anything and letting them, just letting them lead. Yeah. Yeah, it's like starting a fire, right? Just like, all right, let's just get a few little things here and, you know, now maybe they'll just suddenly add something and then. It'll catch. Yeah, it'll catch. That's so true. It's actually the perfect analogy because it's like.

1:28:10the spark is really the only thing you need to have to go from nothing to something. Yeah. I think that's why we call ideas sparks. Yeah. Because then after that, it can catch fire. Yeah. And then you look back, like we, this game eventually evolved out of shops where we had one of those little wooden shop things, which never made it into Bluey, but probably because it was called Head Sheeran. And basically I was the shopkeeper, but I was just a head.

1:28:38And I don't know, you know, because I was a shopkeeper, but that eventually I would just lie my head on the thing there, like just trying to rest, and they'd go, I'm just a head, okay? If you want stuff, you've got to get it yourself. And then I'd have a little rat, which would be my hand, to grab their feet, but then they would love it because they could just shoplift and they'd run off and I'm just a head yelling at them and... And so then we would just play head Sheeran for weeks.

1:29:02You didn't sit down and say, right, I'm going to play a game where I'm just a head, da-da-da. It just evolves. Head Sheeran, that's a nice one, a nice game to leave everyone with. Thank you so much, mate. That's so special to, I mean, for me personally, to chat with people whose parenting and dating skills I admire enormously. So thank you for being so generous with you. insights into the way you work, but also your time. We're so appreciative, mate.

1:29:29Yeah, no, absolute pleasure. Thanks, guys. Thanks, Joe. Thank you. If you enjoyed this episode and want a little more, you might enjoy our subscriber-only eps, available on Patreon and Apple Podcasts. If you want a little more but don't want to pay any more, then you can join our newsletter at theimperfects.com.au. And while you're there, you'll be able to see the names and faces of all the incredible people who helped make this show. A show made on the lands of the Wurundjeri, Woiwurrung people, and we pay our respects to elders past and present.

1:29:58The Imperfects is not a licensed mental health service and is not a substitute for professional mental health advice, treatment or assessment. The advice given in this episode is general in nature, but if you're struggling, please see a healthcare professional or call Lifeline on 13 11 14.