Part 4: Vagary

0:04JACK: [Music] Life is an endless stream of good things and bad things. We must be careful not to let the dark moments dim our light; nor do we want the bright parts to make us forget about the darkness. The combination of the two is what gives life its depth, understanding, and meaning. Seneca said he pitied people who didn't have misfortune. Because the world never sent them an opponent, we’ll never know what they're capable of. Sometimes when we look back at the worst or hardest part of our lives, we're happy we went through it.

0:46We gained new perspectives from it. We toughened up from it. We are thankful for the experience, yet we would never want to do that again. Misfortune has a way to show us who we're made of. Would you believe that I actually subject myself to pain and suffering on a daily basis? I do it to toughen myself up. I do it to get stronger. I do it to build resilience. I do it in the morning so that the rest of my day is easier. I’m talking about working out.

1:22I go to the gym a few days a week and lift weights, and then I go running on my off days. The exercise I do makes my lungs burn and makes my legs become unusable. My arms scream out from it, but damn, does it feel great afterwards. On mornings when I go extra hard in the gym, it gives me a wave of dopamine that lasts the whole day, and my body loves that I subject it to such misery. I’m faster, stronger, and happier all around from it, and that is weird, isn't it?

1:59Suffering builds up my ability to overcome even harder challenges in the future, so I always want to make sure that I remember that I went through some hard times in the past, because if I can see myself who's able to do hard things, then hard things won't slow me down in the future. Some try to avoid suffering altogether, but wouldn't someone like that also need to remove joy from their life, too? When I suffer or feel joy, they are both deep confirmations of feeling alive, of being human, and I think there’s nothing in the world better than feeling that.

2:42ZACHARIAH: Hey, I wanted you to know I appreciated that we talked about my mom earlier. I had forgotten about those days and how nice it was back then. I like that you reminded me of all that. JACK: Yeah, we're going on wild rides here. Speaking of wild rides, your first airplane ride, what was that like? ZACHARIAH: Yeah, it was scary as fuck. I stayed awake for thirteen hours on that plane wondering if we're ever gonna make it, but we did. Arriving in America was so strange.

3:13I didn't know anything about America. I only knew three things — one, everyone is fat, two, people treat gay people with respect, and three, everyone smoked pot. JACK: So, when you arrived, did you have any culture shock moments? ZACHARIAH: I couldn't believe these tall buildings that were made of glass. I was so scared that they were just gonna fall apart. The windows looked like they were barely hung up, and it just made no sense that the walls were made of glass.

3:42I was in awe of that. How is that possible? In Russia buildings are made of concrete and the windows aren't even glass all the time. Like, sometimes they're just plastic. You can't build a building out of glass. So, I was scared and amazed at the same time. I saw a black person for the first time. I remember staring at him because we don't have black people in Russia. So, I thought he was wearing a costume or something. I thought he painted himself to look like that, and I wanted to throw water on him.

4:14Then I saw more and more black people, and I realized not everyone looks like me. But as I looked around the city, I saw the US has the same problems as Russia. I saw some guy pissing on the street. I saw homeless people everywhere. I saw needles on the ground. I heard police sirens constantly. Police helicopters were flying around. It’s the same shit, you know? And I’m not saying that to say that city is a mess. I’m looking at it thinking, oh my god, this isn't what I expected.

4:49I expected the city to be clean and everyone be like wimps or arrogant of how bad things are in the world. But I realized they just have the same bullshit that I went through. JACK: Can you tell me what city you were in? ZACHARIAH: No, I can't say that. JACK: Alright, so tell me about this guy, Nick. Where did he have you living? ZACHARIAH: He had me stay in his apartment with him. It was a big apartment building downtown. JACK: How big was the building?

5:17ZACHARIAH: Like, I don't know, thirty-one floors. JACK: How many bedrooms did it have? ZACHARIAH: Only one, just one. JACK: So, where did you sleep? ZACHARIAH: In his bedroom. He told me I can stay in his room. JACK: Well, hold on here. You told me you're ultra-sensitive about older men in your life. How were you comfortable sleeping in his bed? ZACHARIAH: No, no. You're right, you're right, I’m on guard when it comes to pedos, but this guy was different.

5:48He appeared more genuine and honestly not that interested in me. I could see in his eyes, though, that he treated me like someone he once knew. I’m pretty sure he had a son once, but something happened. I don't know if his son died or he lost him somehow, but he treated me kindly and, you know, he trusted me with his apartment. Like, there was a lot of nice shit there, and I could have taken it all and left, but he gave me a key and left me alone for the most part.

6:17JACK: So, where did he sleep? ZACHARIAH: He slept on the couch in the living room. JACK: What was he like? ZACHARIAH: He didn't talk to me much. I didn't really get to know him that well. When he was there, he’d watch the news and read biographies and listen to rock music. He had long, black hair and he was tall, like over six feet tall, and he had a baby face, like no beard or anything. Honestly, I thought he was lonely. He didn't seem to have anyone special in his life, like no family or girlfriend ever.

6:53JACK: Did he make you work or put you to work? ZACHARIAH: No, not really. I think at first he wanted me to get used to my surroundings. He just gave me some money to get some clothes and just told me to do whatever. Honestly, he was out a lot. He worked a lot and he traveled a lot. So, I just didn't see him that much. JACK: [Music] So, what did you do with your time? ZACHARIAH: Drugs. JACK: I should have guessed. Tell me more. How did you get drugs?

7:23ZACHARIAH: I’d buy them from guys on the street. I could tell who was selling and talk to them, and I used the money that he gave me for clothes to buy drugs. JACK: What were your drugs of choice? ZACHARIAH: Pot and Adderall. JACK: So, you just hung out in the street a lot? ZACHARIAH: Yeah, I had a black hoodie and I’d put it on and zip it up and just walk all over, looking at the city, you know? I liked going up on a hill and looking down at it or finding a good view and just sit there and smoke pot and watch the city, especially at night.

7:57I loved doing that. Once when I was walking through the city, I came around the corner and there was a guy there laying on the sidewalk. I’m pretty sure he OD’d on heroine. He had the needle in his hand, but when I went closer I noticed that the needle was full. He didn't take any of the heroine. So, I pulled the needle out of his hand and went to where the junkies hung out, and I sold the needle full of heroine for ten bucks. I figure it was probably worth $60, but it was the first time I sold any drugs in the US, and I really wanted to.

8:40So, I just let it go for $10. I was so happy. I remember I had such a smile on my face. JACK: Wait, you sold a lot of drugs before, and $10 is not that much. So, why were you so happy about this? ZACHARIAH: Because all the gangster rap songs in the US talk about selling drugs. The songs about selling drugs in Russia just aren't that popular. But if you make a rap song about selling drugs in the US, it’s a big fucking hit. Everyone loves rap songs about drug dealing, and I felt like I was living in one of those songs, living in the big time, and it felt amazing.

9:22JACK: [Music] Do you know what the categorical imperative is? It’s a philosophical concept by Immanuel Kant. The idea is simple. It goes like this; you should only do things that you'd be okay with everyone else doing, too. So, for instance, if you think it’s okay for you to speed down the road, you should also be fine with everyone else speeding, too, and if that’s the case, then why are there even speed limits? But I don't like the categorical imperative since it’s too rigid.

9:59Life doesn't fit in some neat set of rules. Let’s take lying, for example. If you believe that it’s wrong for you to lie and therefore everyone else shouldn't be lying, either, then put yourself in this situation. Imagine there’s a murderer at your door and they say they've come to kill your best friend who’s hiding in the closet. Would you lie to the murderer to save your friend? Of course you would. Life is a puzzle to be figured out, and that’s why it’s important to live according to your own values.

10:32Trying to live by someone else’s rules is going to exhaust you, and you'll never find meaning or fulfillment. You've got to find what matters to you, what really matters to you. What does your life mean? That’s your first quest. When you figure that out, live your life like it’s the only thing that matters, because it is. But keep in mind, there’s no winning move. None of this matters in the grand scheme of things. Our lives just don't matter in the long run, and it’s important to recognize that, to embrace it, not run away from it.

11:12It all adds up to nothing. But not now, not in this fucking moment that you're alive in right now or any great moment that you've ever had. That favorite song of yours, your favorite food, that kiss on your lover’s lips that just made you want to melt, that thrill you get from doing your favorite thing, all of it has faded. It was here, it was amazing, but now it’s gone. Does that make the experience pointless? Does that make it not matter? Hell no.

11:50That song was amazing. That kiss was incredible. That accomplishment felt great. Let’s do that again. That’s the point, to find those moments that make life feel worthwhile. That’s what gives life meaning, which should be the most important thing we focus on. I cannot think of anything more meaningful or valuable than life itself, and that’s because I’m a human and I try to act like a human living, not a human being. A human living. This is Low, Part 4, Vagary.

12:39Zachariah really did luck out with this situation. He had a clean place to stay, food, hot water, Wi-Fi, spending cash, all in the land of opportunity, a fresh start. My theory is that Nick saw how poor and bad off Zachariah was and just took pity on him. There are quite a lot of homeless kids in Russia, and it’s sad to see. I mean, shoot, if you were in Nick’s position and you were some rich businessman and ran into a homeless kid while in Russia, you might want to try to help out Zachariah, too.

13:09But also, it sounds like Nick might have felt a little unfulfilled in life. Maybe he thought Zachariah could help him in some way. But he wasn't doing any parenting of Zachariah. He wasn't teaching him how to drive or navigate the big, wide world around him. He was just giving him another chance. ZACHARIAH: I already knew how to drive. JACK: Where did you learn to do that? ZACHARIAH: Back in Russia there was always someone with a stolen car, and I got to drive it sometimes.

13:35Like, I never stole a car, but if someone else stole it, I would drive it. But this guy did enroll me in school. JACK: What? How? You don't even have an ID. ZACHARIAH: Yeah, he faked all that. He got me a fake ID. I remember the name he used for the fake ID. He called me Adam Khalifa. So, I went to ninth grade for a while under that name. JACK: Oh my gosh. So, how did you do in school? ZACHARIAH: I liked it, actually. It was hard for me because I was only medium at English, and so — and everyone else had been going to school their whole life, but I was trying to catch up.

14:14The thing is is that I just tried to fit in and not make any problems since I didn't want to stick out and get thrown out of the country. JACK: Did you ever get sick or anything and had to see the doctor? ZACHARIAH: Yeah, I did get sick once, but Nick knew a doctor that just came over and looked at me without asking my name. JACK: Gosh, you just — you only know how to live in the margins of society. You're either unaccounted for and missing in Russia or living like some elite life that most people can never have in the US.

14:48ZACHARIAH: Yeah, I don't think I ever learned what normal people do. JACK: I just can't imagine a ninth-grader so adept with heroine that you could just pull a needle out of someone’s hand and then go sell it. That is so un-normal that it’s not even funny. ZACHARIAH: Yeah, I had to act like I didn't know anything about drugs in school, but I was pretty sure I knew which teacher smoked pot there. JACK: Well, actually, Adderall and Ritalin are prescribed quite frequently to our youth here in America.

15:18ZACHARIAH: Oh, yeah. The easiest place for me to find that was at school, actually. JACK: What, you'd buy it from them? ZACHARIAH: Yeah, it was great. It was easy. Their parents would buy it for them and then they'd sell it to me. Then they'd tell their parents that they spilled it or lost it in the sink or something, and their parents would just get them more. JACK: Then you would go and sell that on the streets? ZACHARIAH: Yeah, of course. JACK: Where else were you getting drugs from to sell it?

15:44ZACHARIAH: I found a guy who was selling a lot of drugs, different kinds of drugs, and I was basically a runner for him. He even let me use his car to deliver stuff. JACK: What, are you fourteen at the time? ZACHARIAH: Fifteen. JACK: How were you driving cars at fifteen? ZACHARIAH: Well, I didn't have a fucking license, but I knew how to drive. JACK: I mean, did your feet even hit the pedals? ZACHARIAH: Seats move, you know. [Music] This guy would get invited to all the college parties and stuff, and then he would send me with a bunch of drugs to sell at the party.

16:22So, I’d drive his car with pocketfuls of drugs and show up. I knew it was a safe place to sell since basically a bunch of underage college kids were getting drunk, and they wouldn't call the cops on me 'cause they'd probably get in trouble, too, right? So, we were all doing illegal things there. JACK: This is insane. These college kids must have thought you were some total badass, a fifteen-year-old pulling up in a car with all the best drugs. Did you ever get in fights with these college kids over these drugs?

16:48Like, did any of them try to rob you or push you around? ZACHARIAH: No, no. Let me tell you the secret of why nobody ever fucked with me. I never spoke English at these parties. I acted like I didn't understand a word of English and just spoke Russian only, and I acted like I knew only a couple words in English. JACK: Wait, so, walk me through how you'd make a deal without speaking any English. ZACHARIAH: Okay, so, someone would know I’d have drugs, and they'd come up to me and ask what I have.

17:19I’d unzip my jacket, and on the inside I had MDMA, pot, and I’d say, ‘this or this?’ in a thick Russian accent. JACK: Wait, what do you mean you had the drugs inside your jacket? ZACHARIAH: I saw it in a movie and I thought it was funny, so I’d duct-tape drug bags to the inside of my jacket so I could just unzip it and show them what I had. JACK: Oh my gosh, that’s ridiculous. ZACHARIAH: Yeah, I thought it was funny, too. JACK: Okay, so, when they say how much is it, how do you respond?

17:51ZACHARIAH: I just started talking to them in Russian. I didn't speak any English at all, right? I would just say pyatnadtsat’, which means fifteen, and I’d hold up my fingers, like one and five, and they'd act stupid and say, five dollars? I’d shake my head. No, no, fifteen. But it would all be in Russian. It worked great because it meant I didn't have to talk much or argue about prices since they thought I couldn't speak any English and didn't try to haggle.

18:17I could cuss them out in Russian, too, the whole time, and they wouldn't know, either. JACK: Man, that’s kind of a brilliant strategy, actually. Did these drug deals ever go wrong, though? ZACHARIAH: One time I was sent to this party, but I didn't know the area very well. It was in this nice neighborhood. I was driving around slowly looking for the house, but I kept passing it. I don't know, I was high and I could not find this place. I think a neighbor thought I was suspicious for driving up and back over and over, and called the cops on me.

18:53I eventually got to the party, and as soon as I pulled up, a cop car pulled up, too. [Music] So, I was like, oh shit. I just ran through the fucking party out the back door, into their backyard, and jumped over their fence. But I didn't realize that there was a cop on the other side of that fence, and I — when I landed I startled him, because he pulled out his gun and aimed it at me and was like, freeze. I was like, fuck if I’m gonna freeze. If they catch me, I’m screwed.

19:23So, I jumped up and ran off. I’m pretty sure I startled him too much and he saw that I was a teenager, and he just stood there and did not shoot me. But then he ran to his car and he started chasing me down the road in his car. I was hauling ass down sidewalks and around houses trying to find my way out of this neighborhood. I came to a little hill which was high enough that I could see down into someone’s backyard. A cop was right behind me, so I just jumped into their yard.

19:49I figured the cop car can't drive into people’s backyards, and maybe I could find a place to hide somewhere in there. But it was a bigger fall than I realized, and I landed on the ground too hard, and my knees crumpled down, and I fell. I rolled onto my back. When I looked up, I saw the cop on the hill behind the fence. He was shouting at me to stay on the ground, but I didn't stay on the ground. I got up and I ran to the other side of the yard. I climbed over that fence and into someone else’s backyard.

20:14This time someone was in the backyard, and when they turned around and saw me running by them, it scared the shit out of them. They were like, hey, what are you doing? Again, I just ran to the other side of that yard and hopped that fence. This put me in a place with a bunch of trees and shit, so I was running through trees. Then I saw the street, and so I ran towards that. I didn't know where to fucking go, so I just ducked down underneath two cars, and I pulled out my phone and I called the guy who sent me to this party.

20:35I was like, fucking come get me right now. The cops busted the party, and I need you to come right now or the cops will grab me. Come right fucking now! I waited between two cars for him to come. I saw him pull up and I got in, and we took off. JACK: Oof, I don't know what the cops would have done if they would have caught you. ZACHARIAH: Yeah, it would have been bad for me. I can't have that. JACK: Were you getting any drugs from the dark web then?

21:05ZACHARIAH: No, but I was starting to go there sometimes, like just to sort of see what the market was like and prices and what people had and stuff. Eventually I saw that I could buy a pill-press machine. This gave me an idea. So, I bought a pill crusher and a pill press from the dark web marketplace. JACK: Using what, Bitcoin? ZACHARIAH: Yeah. JACK: Did you have any of your Bitcoin from back in Russia? ZACHARIAH: No. I wish, because it would be worth so much more then.

21:37JACK: Okay, so, keep going. ZACHARIAH: I bought some MDMA from a drug dealer locally, then crushed it up and then used the pill press to press it into a new shape and design. This way I could say this is a very unique and special type and charge more. JACK: Oh my gosh, you made your own MDMA pills? ZACHARIAH: Yeah. Well, I mean, I didn't make the substance. I just rebranded the pills that I was buying to try to sell it like they were something special.

22:06JACK: Did you give these pills a name or anything? ZACHARIAH: Yeah, I called them Rockies, and it did well. People were asking for it by name and stuff. Well, I mean, it didn't get national attention like Flakka, but people around me knew about it. JACK: Man, that’s quite clever. So, how long did you live with this Nick guy? ZACHARIAH: About a year. JACK: Only a year? What happened? Why only a year? What happened? ZACHARIAH: Well, one day I got really wasted.

22:42I can't even describe how stoned I was. I remember I was walking around and I saw a broken cookie on the ground and I thought it was a dead animal, but I swear I saw it moving. So, I tried to help it by giving it water and putting it back together, but after a while I just realized it was a cookie and moved on. [Music] I needed to go back to the apartment, but I couldn't remember what floor it was on, so that took a while to find it. But then I got to the apartment and I had to take a piss, so I went to the bathroom, but the door wouldn't open.

23:16I thought I forgot how to open doors, so I went through all the steps; grab doorknob, twist it, push open, but it just — it would twist but it wouldn't open. I felt like something was blocking the door, something was pushing back at me. I just started hitting it with my shoulder and eventually knocked it open. As soon as the door opened, Nick fell behind the door and collapsed on the floor. He had a belt around his neck, and he strangled himself.

23:49He hung himself on the door. JACK: Oh, my god. ZACHARIAH: Yeah, I started freaking out. I was like, oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck, and I was too stoned to know what to do. I looked around, and on the floor was a duffel bag with a note on it that had my name on it. I looked in it. It looked like money, but I was too fucking stoned and out of my mind to understand what even country this money is from. So, I freaked out and I didn't know what to do, and I just dumped the duffel bag of money in the toilet and tried flushing it, because I thought, I’m gonna be in a lot of fucking trouble if someone finds me with a dead body here and all this money.

24:27So, I just grabbed some cigarettes and ran outta there. JACK: Wait, you just left everything, all — you left all that money, all your stuff, everything? You just left? ZACHARIAH: Yeah, it really fucking messed me up. I was in shock, you know? I had no fucking clue what I was doing. I was out of my head. If I was in Russia I’d have some idea of what to do, but being in the US and no home to go to, I’m fucked. JACK: So, where’d you run to? ZACHARIAH: [Music] Well, that’s just it.

24:58I didn't know what to do, so I ran to the stairwell and went up to the roof of the building. JACK: How high did you say this building was? ZACHARIAH: It was pretty high, I think thirty-one floors. I’d never been up on anything that high in my life. It felt like I was on the top of a fucking mountain. JACK: Okay, so you get up on the roof. Is it daytime? ZACHARIAH: It was — no, it was late at night. JACK: What did you do up there? ZACHARIAH: I was sick of this shit.

25:30I felt bad for him, and I blamed myself. I felt responsible for his death in some way. If there was some dead guy that just killed himself and left me some money, I felt like I am probably the center of something here, the center of problems. So, I stepped onto the ledge of the roof and I was gonna jump. I wanted to kill myself. ‘Cause I’m the center of so many fucking problems, I should be eliminated. People would be better off without me. JACK: Were you angry or crying?

26:21What was your emotion standing there? ZACHARIAH: Oh, no, I was blank. I had zero emotions at all. I just felt dead inside. I felt already dead. I had no thoughts at all. I just said, okay, I’m gonna kill myself. I stood on the ledge and I just started saying, jump, jump. Do it. Jump now. JACK: Oh my god, this is so intense. ZACHARIAH: How are you feeling? JACK: How am I feeling? Man, I’m just glued to your story. ZACHARIAH: What do you think of me?

27:11JACK: I think it’s tragic and awful that you went through all this shit in your life. Like, nobody deserves a life like this, and I’m just blown away at how much bad luck you can have. ZACHARIAH: Thank you. JACK: I can't believe all this happened to you when you were fifteen years old. ZACHARIAH: I was sixteen then. JACK: Okay, sixteen. That’s pretty fucked up for a sixteen-year-old. I’m just sitting here trying to imagine what life is gonna be like for you in ten years, or what adult life is gonna be like for you if this is what your childhood is.

27:45ZACHARIAH: I don't think that’s a compliment to say my life is pretty fucked up. JACK: No, it’s not a compliment. But what makes you so unique to me listening to your story is that I think most people wouldn't be able to come back from even one of these bad experiences you’ve had in your life. That would be it for them. Like, homeless at the age of ten — they would just, I don't know, spiral into oblivion or die of some drug overdose or something.

28:10But you somehow kept going through the worst parts of your life, and then it somehow became an even worse situation, but then you got through that, too. You know, my definition for what the word ‘privileged’ is is it’s simply having the opportunity to try again. A privileged person can try again and again and again, but someone who isn't privileged might only get one shot or no shot at all, and if they miss their one shot, that’s it. They don't get to do that anymore.

28:40They have to choose something else now. So, I’m just thinking about that while listening to you, that you somehow keep getting more chances and living another day, you know? Like, despite how unprivileged you seem to be, you somehow have unlimited chances at life, which I guess makes you very privileged. ZACHARIAH: Shit, that’s deep, man. I mean, some people can't afford to lose, but I don't have anything to lose, so it doesn't matter. JACK: Hm. ZACHARIAH: I don't believe in god, but I do believe in evil, and I guess the devil — because why else could all this evil shit be given to one person?

29:25Too much has come my way. This should be spread out to other people, not all on me. JACK: Okay, so, what made you come down from that ledge? ZACHARIAH: [Music] I’m really surprised I didn't die that night. I felt dead just standing on that ledge. Like, nothing at all mattered to me anymore, not a fucking thing. Even the idea of me dying felt insignificant. The wind didn't even fucking know I was there. I remember feeling it’d blow right through me.

30:02Like, I could feel it on my bones somehow. I just thought, death is meaningless up there on that roof, on the edge. I don't know, it’s hard to explain. JACK: I’ve heard people say life is meaningless, but you just said death is meaningless. ZACHARIAH: It is. I was just standing there on that roof thinking nobody gives a shit about me. They don't give a shit what I do with my life or what I think about. I thought about how bullshit it is to hear people say that they care about human lives and stuff when I’m up here saying, here’s my fucking life.

30:40Does anyone fucking care if I live or die? You know, I didn't give a shit what other people thought about me, either. So, it became a stalemate in my head. Both sides don't give a shit. It just felt stupid trying to act like life has some value or meaning when it doesn't. JACK: See, that sounds nihilistic, that life has no meaning. Is that how you felt, total nihilism, like nothing matters at all? ZACHARIAH: Hm, no, it’s not that. It’s not that it has no meaning.

31:18It’s more like I stopped looking for meaning and I became at peace with that. Before that rooftop I thought life was just whatever the fuck happens to you happens to you. But after that, it’s like, well, shit’s fucked, not just for me but for everyone. Everybody faces death. Everyone suffers. Everyone makes bad choices and has a shit life, and if I just accept that’s how life is, I feel like I can live more freely, you know? Live life on my own terms.

31:51Yeah, I know life is fucked, but so what? Why get angry about it? Why are we trying so hard to ignore that shit or think about how it should be different? It is what it is. There’s just some kind of freedom in that when you finally realize the world doesn't give a shit about you anymore. If nobody gives a fuck about each other, then fuck it, I’m gonna live life however the fuck I want. JACK: Man. ZACHARIAH: Anyway, I stepped off that ledge and sat down and lit a cigarette.

32:23I felt this overwhelming feeling of nothingness. Like, this fucking sounds weird, but I felt invisible, missing. The wind was still blowing right through me like I didn't exist anymore, and I swear to god when I took a drag from that cigarette, the smoke just went right through me. I couldn't believe that. So, I took off my shirt to look at this closer. Things just got real quiet sitting up there in the dark. It just was quiet. [Music] It’s so quiet that I could hear my watch ticking.

33:09For some reason it annoyed the shit out of me. I hated that tick-tock sound. It was reminding me of the present. I remember saying, fuck time. I’m on my own time. I’m past time. So, I took my watch off my wrist and threw that motherfucker as far as I could. JACK: You threw your dad’s watch off the roof? ZACHARIAH: Yeah. I wasn't gonna let time hold me down or hold me back. If I’m gonna be invisible, if I’m gonna be empty and nothing, I might as well be infinite, too, eternal even.

33:50After I threw my watch, I just stood there. I closed my eyes. My hands were facing up towards the sky, the big, black, empty sky. It seemed to go on forever. I just breathed deep for a while. I was very calm. I felt disconnected, disconnected from my past, disconnected from my mistakes. The world felt bigger than ever. I thought about how nice this feels being so empty. This nothingness is nice, because now I get to choose what to put in here. So, that’s what I thought.

34:52I’m gonna start with nothing and then see what I want to add. JACK: Damn, dude. So, what did you do? ZACHARIAH: I went back downstairs inside the apartment, and I looked for my stuff. [Music] But my stuff didn't look like my stuff anymore. It looked like someone else’s stuff. I just didn't recognize it. I went into the bathroom. Nick was still on the floor. I looked at the toilet, and the money I tried to flush was still there. It got clogged and didn't all flush.

35:27So, I picked up the duffel bag and I put the cash inside it. JACK: How much do you think you had? How much was there? Did you count it later or anything? ZACHARIAH: I don't know, ten — maybe $10,000. JACK: Wow. So — okay, so you grab the money, then what? ZACHARIAH: Then I looked at Nick on the floor. He had a nice ring, and I thought about taking it. Normally I would take his jewellery and his wallet, but I didn't. He was wearing a leather jacket, though, and I took it off him and put it on.

36:08The jacket felt good. It felt right. Even though the fabric was rough and heavy and it was too big for me, I knew it was gonna be something I’d have to get used to. But I felt great having it on. Then I grabbed his cell phone. It was locked, of course, but I just used it to dial 911. I called and wiped my fingerprints from it and set the phone down next to him. I figure if you dial 911, someone would come check on you. I looked at him again and I said, thanks.

36:41I threw the duffel bag over my shoulder, took one last look at the apartment, and left. JACK: Did you run? ZACHARIAH: No. I didn't give a shit about anything. Where the fuck am I gonna run to? I just put the bag over my shoulder and zipped up my jacket and walked down the sidewalks. JACK: [Music] Okay, so what was your plan? ZACHARIAH: I wanted to get high. I took some Adderall and I wanted to chill out somewhere and smoke a shit ton of pot. I just wanted to say fuck it and get high and forget life for a bit.

37:26JACK: So, is that what you did that night? ZACHARIAH: Well, that was the plan, but I had trouble sitting still. I felt like moving. I think the Adderall made me restless, you know? It somehow felt good to just keep walking. As long as I was moving, I was good. There was something fresh-looking about the world, kind of like how things look after it rains and then sun shines down and everything looks so clean. I found myself stopping and just absorbing all the sights and sounds around me, taking it all in, but also remaining as empty as I could be.

37:56It was like I was in a meditative state. But I wasn't walking through nice places, you know? Like, somehow I kept picking shitty alleys to walk through at night, and I didn't give a fuck, you know? I felt kind of drawn to the dark alleys, too, knowing that nothing can scare me right now. But this shit scares most people. So, I was walking down random alleys and I was going down one, and I heard a girl’s voice. She had an angry tone in her voice. It was sharp and desperate.

38:30I went closer, and some fat asshole was trying to rape this sixteen-year-old girl. He was fucking trying to take her panties off and was lifting her skirt, and she was trying to get away, but he was slapping her and choking her. I saw her eyes; they showed a type of primal fear, a type of fear that I’ve seen before. I didn't even change the pace of my steps. I just started walking directly towards them, and I felt my jaw clench up, and my eyes widened, and I opened up my pocket knife.

39:01He was pulling her hair, forcing her head backwards, telling her to shut up. I took a deep breath. I walked right up behind him and I stabbed him in the neck. He immediately dropped the girl and fell over. I jumped on top of him and I stabbed him again in the neck as hard as I fucking could. The girl was struggling to get to her feet. She was scooting backwards quickly, trying to get away from him. I stabbed him again in the neck, and again. She finally stood up and she saw the blood, and I heard her say, oh my god, and she ran out of there.

39:31This dude was at least twenty years older than her, a dirty, fat fuck, and I kept stabbing him in his neck every time. I just kept going until he stopped moving. I don't know why I counted, but I counted. I stabbed him thirteen times. When he finally stopped moving, I took my knife and wiped the blood off it with his shirt, and I put it away and looked at him. He was lifeless and bloody. I took my bag off and laid down right next to him. It was 4:00 a.m. I just laid there for a long time, right next to him in silence.

40:16JACK: What was going through your mind laying there next to him? ZACHARIAH: I don't know. Nothing. I was angry, but at that point I was just empty. Then laughter bubbled up inside me, and I just started laughing like I had gone crazy. I wasn't happy; I just couldn't stop laughing, though. JACK: God, that’s a bit maniacal. ZACHARIAH: Yeah, I know. I didn't know why I was laughing at first, but then I thought about it and I realized it’s because everything felt so absurd.

40:57How does anyone know what’s right or wrong? What’s right isn't always right. What’s wrong isn't always wrong. I mean, look at me. Look at everything; the shit I’ve done, the shit that’s been done to me, the way the world rewards the worst of us and crushes the ones who try to do good. Here I am, still breathing, still pretending that all this shit makes sense. It doesn't fucking make sense. The only thing I felt like I could do was to laugh. You probably think I’m some psycho or some shit.

41:30JACK: I mean, it sounds like all the traumas that you've experienced in your life were just coming up and out in that moment. Like, the laughing wasn't about the stabbing. It wasn't about this guy or this girl. It was like, it was everything in your life. It was just coming up all at once, and it was hard for you to process it. It was like a breaking point of some kind. Yeah, when all that comes up at once, I could see it coming out as a laugh. ZACHARIAH: Yes, exactly.

42:02Do you smoke pot? JACK: No, no. Not since college. ZACHARIAH: Hm. Well… JACK: I mean, I don't like it because it clouds my thinking. I remember that I would smoke pot and I would try to play chess with a friend, and I would just be sitting there staring off, forgetting it’s my turn, forgetting I’m even playing chess. I’m just like, wow, those are some cool-looking things on the table. My friend’s like yelling at me, go, it’s your turn already, man!

42:30What are you doing? I just don't like that frame of mind. I want to keep my focus razor sharp and experience each moment fully and not be off in some la-la land. ZACHARIAH: I can respect that. JACK: Alright, so you got me off track again here. Are you high right now? ZACHARIAH: Yeah, I smoked two joints before this call. JACK: Alright, let’s focus. You're lying there on the ground next to this dead fucking body. [Music] Jesus Christ. Do you pass out there or do you get up and leave?

43:05What do you — what happens next? ZACHARIAH: I took his wallet, obviously, then I threw him in a dumpster and set the dumpster on fire, and walked off. JACK: Jesus Christ, man. ZACHARIAH: I looked up his info later to see who he was. He was just some old dude who fucked up. There wasn't any news stories about him at all. He was probably homeless. I searched his name in the news for weeks after this, and nothing ever showed up. Nobody cared that he died.

43:38Fuck him, though. The way I see it is that he was responsible for a lot of suffering in the world. The people he hurt might take their pain and go hurt someone else, too, causing more suffering. I ended that awful cycle. I’m glad I did it, 'cause I’m sure that a lot of people, a lot of people that he could have hurt next, are much happier that I killed him.