What Avoidant Attachment Really Feels Like

0:00Like if you think about, I don't know, like emotional issues that you had when you were young, it's not that they're gone. You still feel them down there, but it's just very mild. It's like the volume knob's been turned way down and there's like all this new emotional machinery that's been built on top of it. I'm kind of in the middle of one of these right now, I guess, if we can dive into that, because that's where I'm at. I'm like, well, where do I replace?

0:24I have this adaptation I've identified, and I don't know what comes next. A little bit. Okay. This is all kind of weird, too, and I'm a little disoriented around it. So let me know if I'm just going off the rails here. Okay. A little bit. We'll call this segment Off the Rails with Drew Bernie. That's, okay. Here we go, okay? I've talked pretty openly about my avoidance. Like, I'm an avoidant attachment. This is why I brought it up earlier. I was like, emotional level, this is our advantage.

0:51All your female fans in the comments have noticed. Yeah, okay. I was emotionally avoidant for a long time. I even knew about it early on. I mean, I studied psychology. I even studied a little bit of attachment science, like early on in my early 20s. So I knew about it. So there's that insight problem. I was like, oh, I know about this, so it's okay. But the way I was behaving was still consistent with being avoidant, and it was causing a lot of problems in my life, okay?

1:17And it really wasn't until just a few years ago, probably five-ish years ago, that I really got serious about like, okay, I really need to do something about this. And so what I did is I started with kind of the habit, the behavioral part of it, which was when I had like a partner would come to me and they have a bid for attention or a bid for affection of some sort. Usually what I would do is kind of shut down and be like, well, you're getting too close.

1:40That's not like that's scary. Don't do that. Right. What I learned to do is kind of flip that on. I says, like, OK, wait, catch myself. Like we talked about. I caught that adaptation in the moment. And I could then respond to them. Okay. I could not be, not behave in an avoidant way. I was prepared to come into this podcast and tell you about how, oh, that was my transformation and I have no longer avoidant. And then it really hit me when we were preparing for this.

2:06I'm like, oh, I'm actually no more secure in my attachment than I was before. I have just addressed the problem. the the habit the behavior associated with the avoidance i haven't addressed the rest of it it's kind of bled into the emotional stuff one thing i noticed like with a partner that i had who was anxious she was also she had a psychology background so we could talk about this in a nerdy disconnected way right and so okay we said all right we're gonna work on this okay and we did and i was like what i what i realized was oh these bids for attention and affection they're They're really not that bad.

2:38You just, you give them a little bit and they're fine. And then you can return back to your homeostasis, right? That's kind of bleeding into the emotional adaptation layer a little bit. I can handle those emotions, but that's just like in the receiving of it. I still don't express my needs very well because that's scary to me. And I, so I avoid them. That's the avoidant part of it. I have not addressed the underlying beliefs around this. I have not addressed the underlying narratives around this at all.

3:02I'm no more secure than I was before, but I felt like I was for a long time. But I've had this like recent realization. So I'm in this space right now around what do I replace those adaptations with? And I'm not really even sure because I just identified it. Like the belief slash narrative that I have, I think that's underlying all of this is just a fear of abandonment. That's what it is. I don't want to be abandoned. And so I close myself off. I don't even get involved in that way.

3:26You can't leave me. Yeah. I will keep you at a distance. And so you cannot leave me. Now I'm sitting here like, okay, well, I've replaced the behavior. But that behavior was a coping mechanism for me. And so now I'm sitting in this space where it's like, it feels unsafe. I'm almost feeling anxious. I think I maybe even told you a few times, like, I think I'm actually more disorganized than I was. But I think what that really is, is I'm just feeling the anxiety that was already there.

3:50There's always been there. Probably. But I was avoiding it before. And now I don't avoid it anymore. And now it's like, I don't know what's going on. But you don't know what to do with it. I don't know what to do with it. And like... What I want to do, you know, I talked about the contamination versus redemptive arcs. That's recently, that's what I've been thinking. I was like, okay, I need to return this. I need to turn this into a redemptive arc because right now it's a contamination one.

4:11It's like people leave. People aren't to be trusted. I'm a very independent. That's why I'm an independent person. I was like, I can take care of myself because you can't rely on other people. And so... what do I replace that with? What do I, you know, do I, do I try to make a redemptive arc where it's like, no, no, no. Those things happen to me. Like I did with the being poor and all that, those things happen to me. I survived them and I'll survive them again.

4:33I can't just tell myself that obviously. Right. And have it be true. So I don't know. That's where I'm at right now. I'm in the middle of one of these right now, which is just ironic. And yeah, it's tough, man. I'm going to work through it. I know I will. And that's the other thing is that I've decided like, no, I'm going to take this on and not turn away from it. And I think that's one of the problems that people see that and they're like, no, I'm running right the hell back, which I almost did that with this time around, too.

4:56And it's like I would give yourself more credit as well, because like you changed the behavior, but you didn't actually change. change the adaptation, right? Like we're going to get to this, but you know, behavior is the entry point. It is that change in behavior that has even opened you up to be able to talk about this and think about this in the first place because it was prior to that behavior. You weren't even, this was not even a discussion that in and of itself is a certain amount of progress.

5:20But I mean, this is This is the difficult part with adaptations in general, especially the deep seated ones and the emotional ones. Like they're not changed in months. They're not changed even in years. Like some deeper seated ones like this. I mean, it is years and years and years and years and years to like actually get to the other side. Yeah, it's been it's been weird. lately. And I think I've kind of felt it, but not like building up a little bit.

5:49And then this is all just kind of, you know, it's, it's coming out now. And I'm like, Oh shit. It was like a realization a little bit. Yeah. I just don't know like, Oh, what's the new story I need to build around this? What are the new beliefs and emotional patterns I want to have? And, uh, can I be intentional about that even? I was pretty avoidant when I was younger. And I, I remember, I mean, even up until, uh, the second year I was with my wife, like I had this belief, this operating assumption that like, I was never going to get married.

6:17Every relationship was temporary. And be ready to leave at any moment when it's necessary, right? And it just seemed like, and my ex-girlfriends, like they got it way worse than my wife did. By the time I got to my wife, I kind of realized I'm like, no, I actually like, I like having a girlfriend and I should probably not be a fucking deadbeat, you know, when I'm with them. So that was progress. But then I think that progress like opened me up to when I was with her to at least stick around long enough that it, it, it started challenging some of those other underlying beliefs.

6:53Right. Okay. Like, okay, well maybe, yeah, maybe, uh, Maybe I'm, I am capable of this. Maybe I like, maybe this is okay. But I would say those, those beliefs fell away slowly over the course of years with her. The other thing that fell away too, I had a bad tendency in my earlier relationships of just sabotaging things. I was definitely that guy who would like start a fight over like something very stupid. And I did it unconsciously, but I think what it was is it was kind of a triggered avoidant reaction, right?

7:24I totally do this too. Yeah. point something out that just you could just let go right or yeah and the worst thing is is that it tended to happen in like the most intimate moments and um and i remember actually so fernanda it was one of her birthdays i planned a whole day for her it was an amazing day we were dating we had two or three years amazing day together and she was so happy and we went to this like nice sushi dinner and i don't remember what but i just started being such a fucking yeah okay For no reason.

8:01Yeah, I've done this. For no reason. And it's, you know, it took me years to realize that, like, that was an adaptation that was stuck. I think you said something there, though, that rang true with me now anyway, is that you decided that you were going to stick with it this time. You decided you were going to actually look at this. And if there's anything I'm good at, it's denial. So that's what I've learned, too, is that, like, even me saying that, like, oh, I'm afraid of abandonment.

8:26Yeah. That, to me, I would, like... I, I, that makes me just curl up inside and like, well, I don't like that at all, but because it just seems so weak and it seems so, I don't know, immature. But the fact that it makes you want to puke. I know. And that's what I'm saying is now I have to turn to it. It probably means it's true. I know. And it is motivating a lot of this, um, which unfortunately that's the way it usually works. I don't know. That's where I'm at.

8:51That does help though. And like I said, I am just playing around with the stories now too. Meditations has actually helped me a little bit with this. Probably need to do some more therapy around it. But yeah. Probably the most useful thing for me is I just, and I was kind of in a similar place when I met Fernanda that like, I was aware I had this. I knew I still had it, but I was also like, I kind of don't want to have this. and I remember with her, I just made an agreement with myself, because, like, with my ex before her, I just, like, I was such a shitty boyfriend.

9:26And so with her, I was like, it's okay if it ends, but just make sure it ends for a good reason. Like, don't... Don't be a shithead. Again, and it was behavior, right? So it was like, I still felt a lot of the things that I used to feel in my old relationships. I still had a lot of thoughts and beliefs that I had in previous relationships. I still, there were still times I wanted to break up with her for no reason and go party and sleep with a bunch of girls randomly.

9:52But like, I had an agreement with myself of like, just don't fuck this up for a dumb reason. Like you can break up with her, but it has to be for a legitimate reason. Yeah. And putting that constraint on myself, I guess, just like eventually made me stop being such a wuss. Yeah. It's kind of where I'm at with my girlfriend right now. I think I thought that I was like Mr. Romantic in this. I thought I was like, this is the most expressive I have ever been.

10:21And just part of the impetus of this whole thing is we've, we had a big conversation and a bit of an argument about this and. She was like, you're not that emotionally expressive. And I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? Like, I feel like I'm just being always gushing. Just gushing all the time. And it's like, oh, that's how uncalibrated I am. And it comes back to like the relative definitions, right? So it's like in your head, you're 10 out of 10 expressive.

10:46And in her head, you're like a three out of 10. Sending heart emojis. Come on, man. Like, come on. I'm pouring my heart out into my iPhone right now. Duh. What else could a woman want? Women. Like, come on. No, I get it. Heart emojis aren't enough for them. Well, I guess this is a perfect segue into our next section, which is about relationship as adaptation machines. I mean, we talked about in the emotions episode how humans co-regulate each other.

11:15And also our identities, right, how we identify ourselves and our egos are also mutually defined. None of us define who we are in a vacuum. We largely define ourselves relative to the people around us. And it is those social relationships that kind of create the raw material for us to define who we are and how we see ourselves. So it makes sense that... one of the most effective ways to alter adaptations is to put yourself in relationships with people who maybe have more functional adaptations than you, who perhaps can spot some maladaptive adaptations in you.

11:52I mean, there's a real healing power to relationships. Relationships can also be destructive in this sense. So like, you know, you could almost define a toxic relationship as a relationship that amplifies your unhealthy adaptations or itself becomes an unhealthy adaptation of, um between you and the world i think you make a good point that this is like where it all plays out is in our relationships and this is where you actually like you can change like we're calling these adaptation machines relationships are adaptation machines we can sit here we can talk like we're just saying we can talk you can get all this insight you can intellectualize all of this but like putting it into practice through relationships is really where these adaptations will will shift around and they're most malleable yeah i think relationships are so powerful because it is one of the few places that you are able to catch all three of the cognitive, the behavioral, and the emotional simultaneously.

12:43If you and I hang out for a weekend and I do something annoying and you're like, dude, that's annoying. I'll be like, oh, Sorry. Right. Whereas if I'm like living with my wife for 10 years and she's like, you really need to cut this shit out. Like this is fucked up. Right. It's there's there's an emotional investment in that relationship that is very deep and powerful that when something is disruptive with her, like I'm way more emotionally invested in and actually like.

13:10looking at and addressing, you know, some sort of behavior or assumption or belief. Yeah, there's stakes. There's skin in the game. Yeah. You know what this reminds me of? Have you ever seen that documentary about flat earthers called Behind the Curve? No, I haven't. No. It's... It's so fascinating. There's a flat earth convention. Yeah, I knew of that, yeah. That people get on planes and fly across time zones to attend. So this documentarian started following a bunch of these flat earthers.

13:39And it is so fascinating because what you really notice as the documentary goes on is that these are intensely lonely people. And it's really like the flat earth belief, very much an adaptation to allow them to get some of their basic needs met. Like they are probably very neurodivergent. There are probably some like extreme personality traits going on. Maybe some trauma for some of them. A lot of them probably have a lot of embedded trauma and they are just not super functional in the day-to-day world.

14:15But something about this belief system and coming together online around it allows them to feel accepted and admired and appreciated. special and some degree of status or whatever, but it is, the documentary is extremely well done because it's just the way he shows their stories and how they describe themselves. Like it is so clear that they, they're, they're just lonely and they just want to feel like they're doing something that matters. And that's a hell of an adaptation.

14:43Yeah. So there's a version of working on yourself that is perfectly designed to feel like progress. but it produces no progress. And this is why you're still stuck. It's not because you don't understand yourself. It's because understanding yourself and changing yourself are two completely different skills. Interestingly, there's some research around how change actually takes place. This is very common in the clinical psychology world. So Prokaska and DiClemente have a model.

15:14It's the five-stage model of change. So there's pre-contemplation, contemplation, action, maintenance, and relapse. And pre-contemplation is basically the moment... before there's conscious awareness of an issue, right? It's just you're like, something's off. Something's off, but you don't know what, and you keep doing a thing, and you don't know why, and you're not sure what the problem is. Contemplation is you think you've identified the problem.

15:39I think I know why do I keep doing this. This is what I need to change. Action is when you try to change it. Maintenance is... Making sure that that action is sustainable over a long period of time, because as we're going to discover is that change itself is hard. Maintaining change is exceptionally hard. Most people are able to change their behaviors quite often. Most people are not able to maintain changes in their behaviors over a long period of time.

16:09It is exceptionally difficult. So it's the maintenance phase and then there's the relapse phase, which I kind of love how it's just baked in here. I love how they put it in too, yeah. You're going to fuck up. Yeah. You're going to fuck up. Nobody nails the landing on the first try. It's going to take a few swings and you're going to have to like get back on the horse. How many metaphors can I use here? No, it's like they say in recovery programs, relapses are part of the progress, right?

16:35It's part of the process is learning how you react in these situations. And when you do fail, how are you going to bounce back or are you going to bounce back even? So where would you say you are with the avoidance stuff? I think I'm between the contemplation and action phases right now. I'm trying to move myself into the action phase a little bit. It feels like you've taken some action. Okay, yeah. Oh, no, you're right. You're absolutely right. But I think there's more action that needs to be taken.

17:02I think what I've realized is I've put in some of the work. I haven't put in all of the work. I think the issue is that you've learned how to perform reciprocation. You're not actually emotionally reciprocating that bid for affection. Mm-hmm. And so, yes, you are technically behaving in the correct way, but actually the behavior that you need to change has not been accessed yet. That's, yeah, that's probably true. That's probably a good point. Yeah.

17:31I just think this is the story I have in my head right now. Okay. Is that if I can get through this and I can kind of address those, what I'm seeing right now is the underlying issue, which is fear of abandonment. Right. If I can somehow remove that barrier, I see it as a barrier at this point to something deeper. I don't know what. It's just like if I can remove that, it feels like something's going to come flooding in or out and something's going to break wide open.

17:56The fury you mean? Yeah. If I can remove that fear of abandonment. Yeah. It feels like it's like, it's blocking me. Because another thing, and I think I've mentioned this to you before, just about every girlfriend I've had in my adult life, they've asked me what I want. Of course, like everybody, you know, at some point they're going to ask you that. And I just go blank. I just like, I'm just... I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what I want. Like, this seems fun.

18:18I like you. What more do I need? Right? And so what I think is going on, what it feels like is going on, this is a story I'm telling myself currently. Again, if I can remove that, then I can finally figure out what I want. And that will at least give me some clarity. I'm not going to say that's going to fix everything, but that gives me some clarity around that. What new narrative do I want to build? What new beliefs do I want to build? I don't know.

18:43Maybe that's at the same time too systematic and too abstract. I don't know. So if that scratched an itch for you, the full episode is going to ruin you for every other podcast. Check out the full episode on Spotify. Search for Solved with Mark Manson. We go absurdly deep on every topic. So consider yourself warned. You won't regret it.