Operator Michael Fuchs

Dave C: On today's episode, we'll talk about working with A-list actors, falling in love with the Steadicam, weapons, wolves, and of course, playing Garrett Brown in a movie about Rocky. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website theop.io is up and chock full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done. The musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling. The answers, the images, and so much more. This episode is brought to you by the Folex Max. So you want to practice your handheld, steady cam, or even on the wheels, but you don't have a full-size camera to use? Well, fear not. The Folex Max is here. It allows you to attach your DSLR or other lightweight camera and distribute that weight in a multitude of ways. Now you can practice with a camera cage that feels the same as just about any size professional camera out there. For more information, check out Folexmax.com. And as an added bonus to listeners, mention this podcast and you'll receive $100 off on your order. That's F-A-U-X-L-E-X-M-A-X.com. Finally, if you enjoy this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Black it up, nice and quiet, and let's roll. Victor 30 Echo Take 2. Camera set. Hello and welcome back to the OPP Podcast, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. I'm Dave Kamadis, your host and coming to live at the moment anyway, I guess, over the internet ⁓ with an amazing operator, Mucklf. So there you go. Totally. Coming to you live today over the internet with an amazing operator, Michael Fuchs, who is in New York. And actually, we pushed it back a little bit today because we just both went to the no kings protests. So there you go for that. ⁓ Michael has done ⁓ a couple of things. Most recently, weapons. Happy Gilmore to a bunch of stuff for Saturday Night Live, the movie Wolf's New York unit of killers of the flower moon, the trial of the Chicago seven of Beale Street could talk. And I have to mention. Nick Offerman's American Ham, just because the idea of working with Nick Offerman seems like a dream. Recently nominated for the 2026 SoC Operator of the Year for feature film Weapons. In 2025, he had two nominations for the TV show Mr. and Mrs. Smith and ⁓ also the feature Wolves. And in 2019, he had a nomination for ⁓ If Beale Street Could Talk. ⁓ And ⁓ he's just, it's really wild because I had no, I'd heard. I'd heard his name before and I happened to see weapons because I knew people who worked on it and I watched it and I was like, this is unbelievable operating and I sent an email out and we connected and here he is. So Michael, thank you for being here. It is a pleasure to be here. It is a little surreal to be here and then have Dave Kamaiti say all these things about me. I still feel like, you know, I just got here and I'm just trying to get by. ⁓ is, it is an honor, truly is an honor. I remember going to steady shots.org when I was just getting started and looking at the incredible work of many operators, specifically Dave Commities and the work that was done on West wing and ER and just stuff that I used to see when I was not even in the business and then getting into the business of just like total pillars for ⁓ operating and steady can work and just being like, the bleep am I going to do this? to this standard. So to see, hear you say these things to me today is really something. Thank you very much. Well, I wanted to introduce you that way because it was, it is the truth and you can tell everybody. I saw Weapons Well, because I know Kate Roberson who did B Camera and you obviously know her as well. And Chris Cringle, ⁓ who is actually my landlord here in That is wild. Just wild. She was the AD on it and I knew smattering other people. And it was one of those movies that like, ⁓ I should watch it, but I don't have time, but I want to sit down and wonder. And then I watched it and I was just Like the operating on that movie is beautiful. Anybody who hasn't seen it, if you want to see exceptional operating all the way through, go see and a good movie. Go see weapons. Really phenomenal. So so so moving backwards, because we will get the weapons. How did you get into the business? How did you get started? How did you get to where you are? How did I get here? ⁓ I guess I did get here and it started from as a kid. I guess I was going to movies and I'd sit in the audience and I'd be like, huh? how do I get to be a part of creating this feeling that would sometimes happen in a movie theater where you're like, wow, just something a little bigger than ⁓ reality is happening and people are so into it and that special effect that the whole idea of ⁓ creating art is meant to have on people. And I was like, I wanna go behind the screen if possible. I just seemed, I was totally drawn to behind the scenes. It was like, I remember doing... going to a sleepaway camp one time and mom's been involved all her life in like sleepaway camp things and education and school and all this stuff. And I was at one where you could concentrate on being literally like a crew member behind the scenes of the theater productions they do there. And I was, I just loved it. It's like, how do I get as close to being seen, but not seen? Cause that also kind of translates into maybe what we'll also talk about in terms of the Garrett Brown, ⁓ unique situation with I Play Rocky. it really was like, how close can I get? to the show itself, but then be right behind it. And I think that's ultimately what drove me to know that, you know, it was gonna be crew work of some sort, and then it just became more clear. I did like a two week program in high school one summer for the infamous New York Film Academy out in LA, and you would rotate through positions. Of course, in that program, you'd be a writer, you'd write something, you'd direct, you'd be on the camera. There's probably one other. you know, maybe sound something, but when I rotated through that camera position, I remember when I held the camera, some of the earlier, or maybe the first times I was really a part of something on the camera that you were like telling a story and it was like a little script. And when the camera's in my hands, I just didn't have to, it was funny how I I felt like I didn't have to think about it very much. And it was just like this language that's like, don't know, did it come to me? Yes, maybe, but I wasn't thinking about it. And then if I... Backtrack a little further, when my dad would give me the camera, when we'd be on vacations or something, there was this thing. I remember the first time I was doing a pan on the little video camera and I incorporated a zoom at the same time and I was like, whoa, whoa. The two of those things together, holy bleep. So I do specifically remember, I do remember panning and zooming for the first time on a home video camera and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, it definitely spoke to me. So between that. And then that New York Film Academy experience, kind of also just being like, I think this camera thing might be what you're into. I then went to college and was able to have a concentration in the communication department at Northwestern near Chicago. I'm still not sure how I got in to that school, definitely off the wait list there. And ⁓ that was awesome because it was the student to student teaching there and the opportunity to create student films kind of on a grant system that they had, which. I was a little outside the school itself. was just part of what was one of the clubs. And I was just got so involved in making the different sized short films that they would grant. And then there was this one larger music video at the end of the year. And it was, it became clear how much time this business or the art of making movies and things would take from you. And it was just like, you know, could you get out of class maybe on the Friday to start shooting on the Friday and shoot off your Sunday and blah, blah, blah. And it was just such a preview, such a lucky preview to be able to do that. That's great. And have so much hands-on experience with film and SR2s and 3s and then renting, supplementing things from Chicago, which is such a great city to, you know, also be able to rent things in because it definitely had, you know, very nice rental houses there that would help us out as students. yeah, once I got out of school, I was like, so you're telling me there's a camera operator position and the DP doesn't operate all the time? Wow, that sounds like. That just sounds like a gold mine. So that was my question. So on all these things, you were DPing and operating, I'm assuming. Yeah, in school. On the ones where you were DPing. I was doing that anyway. Yeah, it was a DP man. I could be on the camera. Of course, I was responsible for lighting back then as well. And then at some point, a Steadicam operator came in and joined us from LA with a guy who had graduated Northwestern, who was shooting one of the projects. And he brought this guy, BJ McDonald. Oh yeah, BJ. And I was like, whoa, this guy's a holy. another bleep like this dude's such a rock star. He's so good. The steady cam thing looks awesome. He makes it look awesome. The shots look incredible. And I was like, could I do this? Could I strap this thing to my frail body and like get away with this? And the first time I remember trying it after like a weekend workshop with Janice Arthur in Chicago, like, I think I came, I think I remember crying after trying to do some of the work on that film. Just like, wow, I don't know if I really built it. You know, cause you take the workshop with her like a weekend and you know, then you can rent her rigs that you have available for students in the area. And my gosh, I remember doing the first one, it was so heavy. I was like, so not ready, you just such a challenge. came off of that day, I remember being quite upset thinking that I had any idea that I was gonna try that as a career. ⁓ And then I still went for it anyway, which is wild. So the first time that you put a study cam on, said, you know, mean, you know, tweaked you out like it does with everybody. But did you see something there where you went, if I could figure out physically how to do this, I like this, or was it like, this isn't for me? No, it must've been the former because I still went for it. Anyway, I remember putting on BJ's. That was the first time BJ McDonald came, did this music video in SR2 on there. And I was like, can I put this thing on? I'm definitely, can I put this thing on? And I did. And I was like, oh gosh, that was one thing. But that was very brief. That was just, I ran around with it for a minute and then I took that workshop. with Janice and at the workshop with Janice, was, you know, I was still thinking for sure, like I definitely want to pursue this. And then that short film doing it for the first time of like, okay, here's the call time. Now you show up and we do the thing. Yes, that was a tough day. I think I was just going to try to be a little stubborn about it because I did think that if I could handle it physically and got more used to it, that I knew how I wanted to operate. I knew how I wanted steadicam shots. to look and I was so inspired by the work that I had seen so far. And I swear as a kid for some reason, there's a weird thing I used to do. I used to like kind of walk around sometimes and pretend that I was like a camera. I would like go into a room and like go around a corner and print. I don't know what I was doing, but this has come back to me later as well of like, I would do this thing where I didn't know I was operating a Steadicam with my eyes, but I kind of was very bizarre. ⁓ that's great. But as a kid, did kind of like pretend like I was doing these like POV shots. I don't know. I'm a weird person. It's just what it is. I think that if you took all of the study chem operators we've ever known and put them all in a room, you would find like 80 % of us were weird kids in some way or another. think you have to be to sort of be into this. at that point, did you sort of go, this is my path? did you? Yes. Yeah, I took the gamble coming out of school. You know, PA down Tropic Thunder like everyone does, just go out to Hawaii, PA on that with some friends, totally, totally normal thing. That was amazing. Then I came back to you know someone? How'd you get that? It did. Yeah. It was ⁓ a friend from Northwestern was living out there and was like working for the founder of E-Trade and managing his estate or something to that effect. And then another good friend, very classic, very normal. And then another friend of mine also from school who I was very close with and who was in the film, who was a film major as well. was going out there to spend the summer. And then this friend who already lived out there was like, ⁓ this movie's coming through. you know, Tropic Thunder movie's coming through. Maybe there's a world where you, my friend Matt, you know, goes and works on that. And then I was getting wind of all this happening. I was like, this sounds like insane. So I applied, I tried to be the camera PA, but someone else seemingly had already gotten that. And then I just stayed in touch. With my friend who did get on it, my friend ended up being basically the aerial unit PA. He was the PA that worked with, you know, a couple of famous pilots now and aerial coordinators and photographers that, you know, did that movie. And he was like up in the Hueys all the time. It was insane. He doubled for people. like put on quickly. He'd end up like doubling for someone in a scene and they'd fly, you know, copter to copter and shoot him in there. I mean, it was just an insane situation. And I got there halfway through when they kind of like let someone go from just the main unit. PA world and I flew out there and lived with him and then kind of like bullied my way into the, when the second unit showed up into the second unit camera department and kind of did what I had done once or twice before on professional sets when I was still in school and ⁓ obviously time of my life. And that was Brooks Robinson at the time was doing Steadycam and I was watching him and he's just, mean, one of the kindest souls ever ⁓ and so helpful and so encouraging. ⁓ even certainly after when I got the rig and I was, you know, asking Brooks a lot of, a lot of things. ⁓ so, you know, watching that whole thing go down in that environment was an insane thing to see kind of straight out of school at 22 or whatnot. that's like right into the fire there too, cause that was a crazy show from what he told me. And, ⁓ told me stories about that. Yeah. And I only, I probably don't know. I wish I knew maybe more of the stories that happened, you know, way out of my zone or before I got there or, know, after they went to LA, but, ⁓ Insane to shoot in possibly one of the wettest spots on the earth. mean, there were days I think where rain delays would, there'd be separate rain delays over 10, 12, 13 times plus and working in the mud. I, that's when I learned what Neos were and the idea that I can't show up in like jeans and sneakers. That's not going to work as the mud is just up to your, or below your knees. And it was quite a, quite a thing. then yeah, the plan after that was always to come back at first to New York. And I had Steadicam, Steadicam on the, on the, that was top of mind too. That was going to be my route. thought I was going to, if I could afford a used package from somewhere, that was going to kind of be how old And how old are you at this point? That was 12, 20, I think I was 22. Okay. So you're fresh I got back from school. Yep. And came back to NYC. And so did you just start looking around for a rig or what? Yeah. That was kind of out. Yeah. I Steadicam forum. and the marketplace and just looking like, okay, if I can get a couple of these loans, because I needed certainly some help to do it. And it was going to be personal loans from a couple of different avenues. And the promise was if I couldn't pay it back in five years, then it was a fail and I would attempt to sell. And because the money had to get back to those folks in five years. So, know, lucky for me, the rest was history and I was able to hold onto that promise. So yeah, I found someone here. who was selling basically Jim McConkey's old Pro 1 stuff. This is what it ended up being. was like, really like, you know, legendary equipment. I thought that I was ending up with and ⁓ BJ had Pro at the time. And like, it was just seemed like Pro was like a good, everyone was just speaking so highly about their gear. And ⁓ I've really loved it. I mean, it's like the Pro stuff to me is just so simple and so light. And it's withstood the test of time as I upgraded piece by piece on it. But yes, it was. coming here and finding a used situation. ⁓ Yeah, and that's how I started. And then once you got it, did you just basically practice, practice, practice, practice? That's correct, yeah. Music videos and stuff? Gosh, mandy.com, anyway, there's very little, like sometimes a Northwestern thing would come up, know, people I knew that there weren't a ton that were out here doing stuff, but I remember doing the Boston Salsa Congress. as a Steadicam operator, it was the whole South of the Congress. There's a big dance workshop show and my friend was like capturing it for them who went to Northwestern and that was one of the earliest things. for like some HDX. things are actually, I I put that in the same vein as the music videos I used to do, which is like, you're learning how to do moves. Most of the people don't really care. They're just happy that you're doing what you're doing, right? And you can mess around and figure it out, right? It's time in the rig. I mean, it was everything I needed. was like, I even got a paycheck for that. Not very much, but it was just like, ⁓ this is a gig. Yeah. This is a gig where I wear the thing and shoot humans, you know, moving around and, little at dances, course, something that goes with Steadicam pretty well. So although that was a very early gig, but yeah, specs freebies on and on mandy.com for me, I remember using quite a bit. never really used Craigslist at the time for jobs, but because Mandy was basically like a specialized Craigslist Craigslist for crew. vacancies and stuff. I just did a ton of that and ⁓ you almost can't remember or trace back exactly what led you to getting those more like legitimate jobs. And then let alone the stuff that got you, you know, into the union or ⁓ yeah. And joining the SOA was, you know, being on that little roster there on the SteadyCam Operating Association site. I remember one or two ops, I think recommending me from New York that I'd never met because they just, you know, I think they found me on the site. Sure. Well, but that's how it happens when you start out, right? Is like you work with someone who goes, hey, I got this thing next weekend. You want me to throw your name in or whatever. And like people like you and there's all that. So you never pulled focus or anything like that. I'm gonna have to expose it nationally and globally now on this podcast that I was not a professional assistant. came in, that was kind of the gamble of course, as well as like, geez, if I could afford the gear number one, get good enough with the gear number two, then... could I come into a camera department and certainly not look like a total fish out of water. I, know, I, course there's a ton of student filmmaking, but that's, that doesn't always compare to how proper departments professionally run this business. So the most I had to draw on was, being a camera PA. I got to do that on the TV show, The Shield, kind of for school credit was a program that Northwestern offered out in LA. And I've met someone through a cousin, kind of the only family member who was really in the biz. was a TV director and Got myself a little camera internship on the shield on FX. What a kooky, crazy, amazing show that was to watch them do and be a part of it as a camera PA and, you know, shot 16. Who were the, ⁓ who was the camera crew? Bonnie Osborne, the A-First was the one I was talking to and brought me on. I met Billy Gerhardt, the A-Op, Richard Cantu, B-Operator. Gary Webster. Wonderful AC Gary Webster. Yeah, I stepped onto that set and it was, It was kind of amazing to see, because they would do stuff like Billy would be on the A camera with the zoom. Always a lot of the time, think, maybe though, it was always zoom lenses on those SR3s. And he would do stuff on the Steadicam where he would zoom on the barrel with his hand while on Steadicam. And I was like, this is freaking awesome. And I swear to you, anytime I can do that, it's maybe happened three times on something, but like. Seeing that happen and then like offering that as a thing if the conversation is going in that direction like a la Billy from the shield Was I mean you can imagine how wild and fun that is to do well and also as I remember that show was so frenetic that Exactly, exactly, know, even though there's gonna be some motion there. It's not like some slow-moving, you know perfectly ⁓ Smooth thing so you can you can put that in there that makes a lot of sense actually did did you did they let you Did they let you get involved? was that like- A little bit, you could, but you had to be careful if someone was coming around from 600. was for the best that you obviously played by the rules and didn't touch the gear because you were not insured to do that. But ⁓ I did, I got to slate. ⁓ I got to slate, I would do marking. It was the first time trying to mark people. ⁓ remember, back in the day, those boys, the shield crew, those guys, it was kind of a machismo, it a macho vibe. And I remember- Okay. I remember Chickless calling me maggot. do. mean, was like, it was jokingly, it was jokingly. I really like, to me, I took that as totally just like a joshing, like I do believe there was actually love there maybe, but. Yeah. And also Michael Chickless is acknowledging me. Like at least there's something there. Totally. Like, yeah, he couldn't, he couldn't avoid me. I'd be down by his feet, marking him sometimes. Yeah. Got forced. Whitaker was in that season, him and Chickless really, it was like they echoed. The characters were of course like so. against each other in the show and that, that tux or that like, you know, little bit of a belligerence or whatnot was definitely echoed in real life. And I was like, ⁓ this is like real acting, you know, it's like off the camera and on the camera. Yeah. Anyway, it was such a great, it was a great experience to see that and like take logs on the back of the slide was yeah, performing some second AC positions that they would allow me to do. And it was super amazing. That's where my, most of between that and not really Tropic Thunder. I I was not as hands on. No, no, no, that's right. When the second unit camera team was there and they stayed for longer, I did get to do some of that. It's like, God, I'll never forget. slated, I would slate in front of Colin Anderson. Like he would be on some ATV. I was watching like Colin on an ATV and I was like, you can put a Steadicam on an ATV. Like this gold rip tricks thing was just blowing my mind. And then I clapped the sticks and there'd be Nick Nolte with a flame thrower and Colin leading him on the ATV. And I'm like, holy, holy crap. This is insane. So those. PA positions were really exceptional for me and that was kind of the most actual, you know, being around or even, you know, AC adjacent in a professional setting was the closest I got. So then when I came in doing my own thing, it really was me trying to, you know, show that I definitely understood the way a camera department ran even if I had not been a proper AC for years and, you know, and an operator later. So that was definitely. Another fortunate, many, many fortunate things in my career, obviously, and to be able to get in with the rig back in around 07, 08, and get to operating slowly, obviously only being brought in as a day player at first, before anyone would trust you with the rest of the things that I really had fallen in love with all the way up to, Steadicam was one of the last things, and maybe the wheels after that that I learned, and I was in love with doing work on the dolly and handheld stuff, but you're not gonna get that trust. until you're around a lot and people see the Steadicam work going well. And then obviously as our business kind of changed into Steadicam operators being able to do A and B camera, know, it all kind of the flow went that way luckily for me as well as I stuck around and was able to pay off the loans and within five years. Yeah. How long did it take you till you were able to like, you know, get thrown onto a B camera and know you could do what you needed to do? ⁓ You know, I must say I was always so confident in like my other modes of operating that I wasn't able to prove to people for a while. So I was like really, because, that, you know, that was a lot of Northwestern, like being on the camera so much and having all those opportunities to screw up ⁓ and do the work and let alone on film, ⁓ you know, through the eyepiece and then seeing those things, you know, days later, or maybe in our work, I like maybe a week later when we were students getting stuff developed, but there was also some video things and digital things. ⁓ that we could see as well. And I just had so many reps, so many amazing reps there for four years. And then to get into it, you know, at the low level that I was getting into it outside of school, was all, it all made sense to me, but it, before I was really given a proper, I mean, gosh, it might've been a non-union feature or two that I did some B camera work on, but then it was, I swear it was Ari Robbins giving my name to Doug Emmett when. my first union opportunity, first narrative union opportunity to do a selection of B camera days and instead he can work on a comedy called Bachelorette that Leslie Headland directed in like, gosh, 2011 or something. And that, you know, that was really the first time I got to truly, you know, do the other work and be involved multiple days and be taken kind of seriously, I guess you could say as an overall. So you mean you came in on days for him or he gave you the show? It was B camera was only day play but it was I became like almost 70 % of that movie I think I was there for us. It was a lot of days for B and Steadicam and I was just so stoked to get that and I can't even remember how Ari, I mean Ari and used to chat a little bit. mean we both I guess started around the same time and his brother was a commercial or did a lot of commercials as a DP here and so on and I don't even know if I worked with his brother but the bottom line was there was some, Community connection and he I remember him giving my name to Doug and Doug had just graduated NYU here not too long before that so the New York of it all now This is also very lucky to end up here in New York because obviously tax incentives have stayed more or less intact in New Jersey now and it's it's basically in that way since the writer's strike of 2008 Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. What was the first job that you were an a camera operator on? That would have been don't think twice which ⁓ Joe Anderson, amazing DP, also kind of from the NYU crowd, was DPing that. And I'd done a little bit of day play work with him prior. My name had been fed to him from a few different places. And I did a really kind of amazingly disturbing movie in Savannah, Georgia, some days a study came on a movie called Christine. Rebecca Hall plays ⁓ this news anchor who does a terrible thing on camera. And... Then he shot this amazing comedy, Don't Think Twice, about a fictional improv group that Mike Birbiglia directed and he asked me to do A-Camera and it was so much fun. I mean, that truly was. To be able to do the A-Camera and have that ownership every day and that satiation of walking away from all the work that we would do, but that was such a fun, I was basically a part of that improv group is what it felt like. Just so many awesome. actors having such a great time and I would do these improv scenes with them on the Steadicam on stage when we would do that. And that was totally fun to kind of map that out with Mike and Joe and work with them. And it was such a great connection and amazing first experience, a tier one. you know, not huge stakes and huge moving pieces and tons of money. It was like a very, very chill, awesome set to be in a camera, you know, the first time. Well, that, yeah, that feels, that sounds like it's sort of like. a gift almost because since everything's so off the cuff and everybody's probably open to things not working perfectly or changing on the fly, it seems like it'd be a great place to be. 100%. So was it a tough thing then to go to whatever your next thing was if it was a completely scripted thing? was that? ⁓ I mean, Don't Think Twice was scripted. It was very much like a fully fleshed out script. The improv scenes were kind of written Those were planned as well and then we would do takes where they'd riff a little more. So it was still pretty grounded in narrative work and narrative approach to the filmmaking. honestly, it's hard that when people ask me about favorite, like narrative jobs, that still goes down as one of them because it was such a fun, ⁓ the environment, it's kind of that theater energy, which I have really liked when I get to be involved in like a little more theatrical ⁓ show or where theater people are involved, I think that. that energy ⁓ excites me and it's such a great, just a great energy period. That's fantastic. ⁓ Tell me about, just cause I have to ask you and I always forget, ⁓ Nicko from an American ham. It was just a great, I love, you know, again, like live performance stuff. love being a part of a multicam. Honestly, not always, always, I always maybe try to leave the Steadicam up to someone else in those environments because it's so. You know, so taxing the way you have to wear that rig for, and especially comedy. it like a two hour show or hour and a half or something like that? Nick, that was a standup special. That's all that was. And it was probably, yeah, I mean an hour and a half. Probably 90 minutes, yeah. Something like that. That was one of my first times, honestly, doing the, I was on some long lens in the back and I said, oh, you have a wheels position? Like, can I get on those wheels? haven't done those a lot. Let me just follow them around. Cause you know, I'd gone into rental houses and done that thing of, you know, just trying to get geared, had experience. back then and that was one of earlier. On the comedy thing, people are in a lot, are on the wheels in the back of the room? There was someone, it wasn't my decision, but someone was like, ⁓ we'll have this really long lens, some long zoom. I don't remember which zoom it was. And that'll be a wheels position. Someone had to just determine that. You know, I, yes, not, not a traditional, but not like I've, you know, been to many other, I don't think that's, I've ever seen that actually on any other multicam approach. Yeah, exactly. And I don't even remember if I was smart enough to ask for, or if I could have had reduction gears on those, because I certainly love those. If I'm on a gear, I'm like, I'm just one of those people who always wants, I can, if the shot, if I can get away with it, the reduction gears to just bandaid my, you know, my, my motion and have it happen. We have to do more rotations. just, I'm a big reduction gear fan. It's one of my kinks. ⁓ But back then, I don't think those were on there, but I do remember Nick Offerman that show being, I was like on the wheels on some, on some long lens, but very, very funny. And yeah, any multi-cam thing. I love doing that stuff. Just careful in the rig. might pass out. There's that. Thankfully I haven't, I did some years ago and I don't really want to do that anymore. I'm kind of past that. that's all right. So Killers of the Flower Moon New York unit, you work with Scorsese? Well, I've worked with Rodrigo Prieto a bit, which is another total gift. Very, very fortunate. I did a pilot with Rodrigo that never saw the light of day. I think it was five weeks, so much money. It was called Why the Last Man. They then had tons of things shifted and certain people left and everything was recast and they shot all of it ⁓ up in Canada. And then my near and friend, fellow Michael, Michael Heathcote, I think did the whole series. And I was like, did you get to, yeah, I know. Yeah. If your name Michael, it's going to just, you're going to have a um, career. don't, I don't know what happened to these Michaels that we got so lucky. by the way, Michael, Michael, that, that Michael, I had a very similar thing as with you because I'd heard of his name before, but I didn't know him at all. And I still don't really know him. We've connected. you got it. You got it on the Heath code. Incredible. Well, but, but I saw some of the stuff that he did in Handmaid's Tale and I was just like, who the hell is doing this? And I'm literally looking at the things going, are Colin Anderson's doing TV now? Like what's going on? Yeah, exactly. ⁓ my God, he did beautiful work in that show. It's just absolutely astounding. Yeah, he's a total pillar to ⁓ want to be like, no doubt about it. no, he's fantastic. ⁓ So, yeah, Killers the Flower Moon. Tell me about that. Killers was very, honestly, that was very minimal. The end of Killers is a radio play that happens. that part. And that's all we did. was a B camera alongside kind of an up and coming operator, Scott Sakamoto, who I thought he was doing okay. He's all right. he was just, he's learning on the go and just so innocent. But no, I mean, not even. that much work. We got to do some work here and there. I can't even remember the types of shots we were doing and that radio play, it was to be on a Scorsese set obviously is a thing. Definitely felt my, I felt alive in my body, mostly with nerves, but it was, yeah, and you're on film and you're doing the thing, you're doing the real thing. And then I got to a Super Bowl ad with Rodrigo and Scorsese, I think a year or later. And it's just a pinch me moments of, Everything's very, in line. it's, ⁓ everything's very much eyes are dotted and T's are crossed on sets like that. know, Marty approves everything and Rodrigo is just so capable of doing so many things and has such a vision. And it's so direct. And it's like at call time, the finders in his hands at call and it's a finder. It's, not a phone and you're putting tape down and it's like pretty amazing to watch and be a part of, a workflow that's so. So precise, there's still room for adjustment, course, and collaboration, all those things, but what a great person to work behind Rodrigo, just like the triangle, the tip of the triangle is so obvious and you just, you fall into that line. That's So actually you said the word ⁓ collaboration, ⁓ that's what I was gonna ask, with the two of them, is it a little more like, okay, so this is what you want and I'm gonna execute it to the best of my abilities, or are you involved in that as well? mean, are they, it seems like they know what they want. Like between Scorsese and Rodrigo? Yeah. Yeah. I think there's also a lot of, you know, with, and with Rodrigo it's again, because it's, ⁓ he's, he has such an idea and there's, you know, with, comes to camera placement and what the camera is going to do. Again, he's open to collaboration, but there is definitely an intention behind things from the get-go. So it's kind of, I like working that way a lot when you, there's such conviction at the top and, ⁓ you know, it's, if there's collaboration needed or suggestions, they're, you know, Rodrigo is someone that always takes them, but. to execute stuff that is also just well thought out and super tasteful and good is a pleasure to do. Well, it's funny. I always have felt that our job is to take what they give us and make it better. And if they're coming in with people like that, I'm assuming that they're already going, is where we the camera to be. And you're looking at it going, yep, that's where the camera should be. You'll finesse if you can, but it's like the finessing is already probably done quite a bit. Yeah. mean, that's what part of the talent is of what we do and having that, being able to have that forethought and see it. And then yeah, you get the camera there and then maybe you zhuzh it a little, but then you look at that frame anyway, kind of where you landed, you're like, yeah, that makes sense. That sure does make sense. And this lens makes sense and so on. it's a nice, it's definitely a nice way to work. Yeah. Do you have something in your mind that you consider to be one of the hardest shots you've ever had to do? Like does something come to mind? Hardest, yeah, goodness. Sometimes there's sneaky little shots, that you're just like, gosh, this is becoming, you know, this is trickier than you would think. I mean, there's obvious like, gosh, I did a longer Warner and a movie called Barry that was about Obama and his early days in New York City. And Adam Newport Barrett shot it. I remember doing this Warner that starts outside a apartment complex up the sidewalk into the bottom of the, you know, the lobby there, and then up this insanely narrow, you know, leading people up the stairs and how, you know, how I got my body through there. I'm not sure. then down the hallway back and forth into this party room like that, that was always physically, I guess I'll remember. And it's always a shame because we spent the whole day shooting that in like three shots, three parts. And then we just gambled and shot it as a one or of course a couple of times at night. like those three sections, I freaking like, really did. I like those three sections because of course you can. you can finesse things a whole lot more than when you're trying to connect all that stuff up the stairs. And then of course, in the movie, it's like one of the Wonders and I'm like, oops, getting out of that stairwell, going up and starting it and coming out of it was just like, don't, you not my favorite, but challenging, absolutely. But I don't- The reason I ask is because like the big Wonders obviously have their own, you know, can I make it through it? And I'm exhausted. I find that sometimes the hardest things that I have are things that you look at it on the surface and you're like, this isn't that But there's some small part of it that just takes you out. Right, or stuff you're just taking a minute to. mean, stuff you do on the crane that can get quick, quick adjustments with anticipation, things like I remember doing one shot in weapons where Josh Brolin's coming down the hill. think he's about to see that AR-15. Is that the name of the gun? It's in the sky? Yeah, up in the sky, yeah. AR, uh, yeah, no, I silly. don't remember. you want. I'll believe it. don't know. There's a gun up there. And I just remember that approach, like taking him down the hill and we were on the crane at that point. And for some reason it was like, we also probably were moving the crane and say, if he comes down the hill and then I have to, I think it's just some quick boom up or something. Cause he looks up there. just remember that taking like longer than it should have. And I was just having issues with the, with the timing and the anticipation of course. Cause anytime you're on a remote head that. sweet, sweet anticipation of everything. You just have to try to zen it out and work with as closely as you can with the other folks who are moving the apparatus. like, I don't even, yeah, something like that. I remember taking longer and being like, why can't I just nail this, blah, blah, blah, ⁓ within three takes. So as we all do. So since you brought it up, let's jump to weapons because I just thought the operating, it wasn't only operating, the operating was fantastic on the movie. but it was just everything was well thought out. seemed like everything was well executed. All made sense. There wasn't any fat in that movie as far as, you know, there was of course, which I know, I don't think you did. There was that, what is it, rollerblading stuff in the, what is it? Like convenient mart or the liquor store or whatever? The gas station, interior gas station. did one rollerblading show with the infamous Connor O'Brien, who is, Which, just spectacular. mean, like just the. I don't know what the word is, like the accuracy, I guess, of those turns when she's turning the aisles and whatnot, just fantastic. Yeah. So you have that work, like Connor came in and I had met him on Wolves because he's a friend of Larkin's and I was told, you know, back on Wolves, like, yeah, this dude is a former pro skater. He's an incredible operator. He's, know, an incredible Ronin tech and, you know, operator as well, knows the tool so well and moves with it so well. And so it's kind of a shame on Wolves. There's a lot of stuff, lot of chase stuff. following the same actor like Austin Abrams, who's also in weapons and was also in wolves. And he's always on the run seemingly in everything that Larkin and I do with him. But Connor came in, just did some amazing stuff on the rollerblades, chasing through the Chinatown mall in LA, I remember, and a lot of that stuff got trimmed, unfortunately. And then in the gas station, yes, the idea was like, how do we move the camera really quickly and do a quick turn like that? And ⁓ what device, what the heck do we use? was like, well, we should probably bring, probably bring Connor and certainly for that and what it ended up being. mean, he had tried stuff. Connor had demoed stuff. I remember him. Well, I remember, you know, Larkin talking to him about it and then him testing it out of like running with the Ronin, you know, on one of the arms that he would run with it. You know, Don Juan, like we do instead, can be facing over his shoulder and he was practicing, doing some practicing running, you know, one way having the lens face the other. And he, remember seeing the test and me like, that's pretty good, but it was. I, well, he wasn't in love with it. And I guess if anything, maybe there was some side to side stuff that he didn't love from that. Probably some of that is my guess. Yeah. More than the rollerblades. Yeah. Right. Right. And yeah, just having to have it like that and you know, as you're running, obviously just super awkward. it, you know, it became certainly the follow to be able to run after her and him on the rollerblades. First, I tried it on the wheels. He was on the blades and I was trying to time that. time that quick turn pan right as he did it and I did not it was just not happening. you do a lot. Yes, dual operators on that shot. Yep. And I was like, okay, that's failing. And it's like Connor, I mean, you know, can next option would be you just Zenning it. And I think the I sort of the take that's in there's the first take of him just in majestic mode, just like blindly shoving, you know, believable turning it as he's rounding the corner. Because I just, you know, I could not It was a tough one to marry up, obviously, without it looking weird. makes perfect sense. But the fact that you said that he was a professional skater. I think if I should check his literature, I'm pretty sure he's a former pro skater is how it should be phrased. But that makes sense because, especially in majestic mode, and anybody who doesn't know what we're talking about, with the Ronin, there's a mode where you can basically point it wherever you want. But of course, there's a moment of lag where it figures out, ⁓ you actually want a pan left as opposed to just this is a shaker or whatever. And so you would just have to so completely understand the physics of a turn on roller blades and what, know, have an, sort of have an internal understanding of that to know how soon before your turn to start turning. it kicks in. That's quite amazing. So then when it became just him doing it for that, that moment, you know, in that shot, it, ⁓ scientifically and physics wise and electronically it made, I mean, it was the best, it was the best take by far. did it. probably two or three times. And that was the one roller blade shot was the follow. And then the lead again, cause he was trying to do that, that experiment where he'd run with the Ronin forward lens backwards. And it was in the end, we just put the Ronin on the black Armani Rickshaw and had James Tripp, Peridale grip and Tony Gandolfi be Dolly grip just haul ass on the Rickshaw. they did. Yeah. And then that turn, you know, that turn, I even the take that's in there, I remember being like, Oh, I think they were receiving a take right where that. that pan right the opposite on the lead of like, I don't know if it was Julia that that shots of, or, ⁓ the zombie running, running towards her in any case, it's on the rickshaw. They're just busting ass and, and we went back to dual operating obviously. And, ⁓ I think even probably, I don't know if it was Connor that would yell when like when to pan if we tried that, cause he could, you know, see it better. So just again, cause it's such a, just like you described it so quick and it's, ⁓ you kind of have one moment to make that totally in sync. So that was ⁓ fun, fun to do. Was the whole movie storyboarded? Yeah, that's the key is that every time I talk about weapons, it's really like Larkin and Zack, their brains together, it's very powerful to begin with. And then they had all this extra time to pre-pro and really workshop things over and over because it was the strikes were happening during the pre-production, you could say, of that movie. The whole film was more or less storyboarded ⁓ and they went to the locations and took all these pictures and those pictures would surround us and where we would eat often at lunch at the stage. And it was always like bit of an accomplishment when like, you know, some of these scenes and the pictures would come down off the wall. You're like, ⁓ we're getting somewhere. We're getting somewhere. Yeah, right. But that's great. But Zack and Larkin, yeah, I mean, it's a good best way to describe it is just no fat. They were always of the intention. ⁓ it's just very intentional photography and so cool the way that's woven into the different perspectives, obviously that the story is told through the different chapters. And that was again, just another, like, what an awesome triangle to be a part of as an operator should be any ops dream to be able to carry out and be a part of their vision for that, for that movie. And yeah, you just take, mean, where we fit in again, it's like, you you can sweeten it up a little here or there, but man, when you have such forethought. going into the storytelling. mean, it's awesome. mean, reading that script, kind of knew, geez, if we didn't screw this up, like, this could be pretty interesting. It's so original. It almost doesn't matter who plays these characters when I read it. I just want to know what happens. ⁓ And then you had, obviously, a lot of things fall into place with the performances on screen and the whole Gladys and Amy and just all the magic of that happening. But yeah, to be able to be one of the operators who got to do work on that film that was so well thought out in advance. You that's, and you can tell, you can tell by seeing it, you know, how much forethought there was. There's no question about it. It's a movie that's designed. There's no question. So there's one, one shot that, that, ⁓ just I loved and it's so well, it's so simple on camera. ⁓ that, that kid is in the back of the cop car and, and, ⁓ the cop comes out and drags him basically into the house. He opens up the door, drags him into the house and I can't. I can't quite remember. It all seems like one shot, but it's like you're in the car with him and then he gets dragged out of the car, but the camera just goes right with him. I mean, it's obviously handheld or something like that. I'm hoping that the way that you did that was some really stupidly simple thing as opposed to some huge contraption with green screen or something like it's not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The contraption was kind of large to get the camera, to send the camera through the cop car. I think this was the brainchild. I'm pretty sure of Zach that he wanted to do this shot this way, but I also, could have been Larkin, like both of them, is such a director who loves to be challenged idea-wise and Larkin is a DP who has many insane thoughts and ideas and they're, and they end up in the movie. They end up in many movies that he does with the Daniels, you know, things that he's pitched and with Zach as well. And I feel bad not remembering which crazy brain thought or had this, you know, intention to do the shot as a oner, if you will. yes. They used a mod truss that was strapped to a dolly and that dolly was on track outside the, you know, the driver's side rear door. So basically tell you on the first, so exactly. So telescoping that and they put it in, what would you call it? A a cat box or whatever. Oh man. asked John day, the key grip, like, did you, what did you call that thing? It's basically a little wooden tray that they made for the camera to sit in. ⁓ a litter box, maybe in any case, ⁓ tray for the camera, a wooden tray that was secured to the end of this mod trust that, you know, breaks it worked just as an arm that was so yes, camera starts in that tray on track. The dolly is pushed, you know, with that much trust as it comes out the passenger side rear door, I'm trying to take it, you know, simultaneously in my hands, just, just grabbing the top handle and then following, following him low through the grass. I think, I think visual effects later. just added a little more life to the part where it's in the tray and being sent through the car just to blend it. Yeah, just to blend it better because it still was a little, a little jarring. think it's as as I would try to pick up that camera, you know, while it's still moving, of course, to blend it as best you could. think visual effects really helped us give the first part a little bit of the energy. I love the fact that that's as simple as it, well, I mean, not simple, but conceptually it's as simple as we need to move it from here to there and then you'll pick it up because it just has I remember when it went, I was like, oh, that's great. Cause it just has such, I don't know, there's something to that shot. That's just fantastic. Yeah. That's that second Larkin. Yeah. Just again, them having like awesome ideas and I'm like, oh, I get to do this. Sweet. You have a favorite shot from the movie? Gosh, do I, ⁓ you're extremely proud of, know, mean, yeah, mean, there's gosh, there's so many, mean, people really respond to that, that one where, ⁓ the mother's coming out of the house possessed with a knife and you see the front door and you're in the car where Julia's sleeping and gosh, originally. Yeah, we, tested that in prep because it was like, does the camera need to be on a slider to be able to, you know, get the first angle for at the door and then kind of slide back as you pan left and we're. ended up, that was a zoom shot obviously, and then, you know, see Julia and have it all end at the same time. And we thought we did. So we still built it on the day with a slider in there. ⁓ And I'm on the wheels and Larkin's on the zoom. And then it just ended up where the camera positionally didn't need to be so far into the car. And I could have totally done the zoom and been on the camera myself and it didn't have to be tuned. It didn't have to be wheels. ⁓ And it was just like, dang it. Like that would have been pretty sweet to just be able to be all on there one person to, but thank God, I mean, between me and Larkin, one of those takes, ⁓ you know, between my operating and his zoom ending, I remember being proud at least of that zoom and the panning and stuff at the exact same time when she comes to the door and no, remember that shot. You're absolutely right. And it is so funny because sometimes you're like, I don't know about you, but sometimes you're, also thinking of like, I want to do this shot, but I'm also trying to think about what they might add into this to be ready for that. And sometimes you over-engineer stuff where it's like, couldn't it just be this? And so I mean, was, even on a prep day, we actually did that shot on like on a test day because Larkin was already, you know, assuming that we would, we'd need to kind of pull back from Julia as we pan left and so on. But it just turns out where we landed on the day that night. It was like, ⁓ where it is now, you know, it's good. We were prepared for anything. I don't know. really will say, I mean, one of the longer slower dolly shots I like in that movie is when you're just seeing Julia speak at the podium. It was just nice and slow, this slow push. And it's so funny, there's even this piece in the floor. I mean, Tripp just... ⁓ James Tripp pair amazing dolly group down in Atlanta. cares just as much about the shot you're doing maybe even more than the operator. he like before I can get off the dolly, he's already run to look at playback. And I just, did a movie with Rodrigo in Atlanta or in Savannah where I met him. ⁓ I just fell in love with this guy and how much pride and how much ownership and passion he has for doing shots to do when the camera moves or doesn't move. But in any case. ⁓ Yeah, we did this show where we laid down floor on this, on the stage and he just does this great job, you know, trying to go super slow. There's this one part in the floor, which is super, it's such a bummer. you know, that was hard, I think to guesstimate where this like dip was. So if you actually watch it, I've, sometimes I've asked people, did you notice the little, we had this little change because it kills both Trip and I so much. I honestly, I just love that. I do love that shot. It's this very slow wrap around her. Then you see her. know exactly the shot you're talking about. And the principal in the background. And then the principal approaches the, ⁓ approach to the podium, we just pull back to this two shot and it's like, there's not much going on there, there aren't also too many shots like that, I feel like in that movie where we got to roll for a long time and have a couple positions. ⁓ I really liked that one, despite the fact that if you do look at it, there's just one little moment where the speed changes just a hair. And I'm sorry to say a trip, but it's just, I love the shot too much not to talk about it. And I've told her that I do remember almost turning the movie off at that point. Cause thinking like, Oh, it just slowed down for half a beat. can't imagine that. No one sees it. You will, you will see it till the day you die and nobody will ever know it. And I hope Tripp hears that too. It's, know, it's a mental, you know, we all need our therapy from those things where we take the work and the shots home with us and we want them to be perfect, but I don't care. I still like that shot quite a lot. mean, there's just so many, you know, cool things we got to do on Weapons, so many nice takes that, you know, last for more than two seconds. But yeah, think that's a good answer for now. Yeah, that's a fantastic one. I got to ask you about Wolfs because you're working with two huge, huge actors there, ⁓ George Clooney and Brad Pitt, right? Totally. Both of whom are fantastic, is, I mean, you're into your career at that point. When was that? 2020? That was 20th. No, no, it was more even a lot more recent. 23. Oh, 23. Okay. You've been around for a while, but is there nerves going into a movie like that? There's nerves for me. There's nerves for me going into everything. So let alone that. I mean, I remember the first night of that movie. I hadn't worked with Larkin yet. We were going to do it starting here in New York. New DP, new director, George Clooney, Brad Pitt, you know, kind of a seemingly a blank check at the time from Apple and just like, yeah, no, I'm still, you know, I'm not. I'm not a super veteran at that point, but yes, I've been doing some work and, ⁓ but still, no, that was, that was totally my stomach was a knots. and yeah, I mean, it was like the first night we had two, basically two oners, one on a crane, one on a dolly, ⁓ and a remote head inside the, and so it was like, okay, good. So we get to get this thing going. We'll get to at least, you know, people will see either that I'm, can, I'm worth it or not worth it. You know, it's always like two weeks for me. feels like those first few days of school. when you're with totally new crews, especially a new DP for me, I'm like, ⁓ man, how is this helmet? How's my stomach going to just be calm again? In any case. we did say, yeah, it was good. Especially that second shot we did, which is George's intro when he comes out of, comes out of the phone booth is the way that you kind of introduce him. hear him on the phone first and then you see him walk out of this phone booth in a bar. And we, ⁓ We, gosh, there were few different ways they wanted to do that shot. And John Watts, the director kind of hadn't re-envisioned it on the night of. So then we just, remember building that or Joaquin Padilla, amazing Dolly Grip here in New York alongside Brendan Lowry, amazing key grip here in New York building. Brendan Lowry is fantastic. I mean, the Lowry clan, it's a pretty cool place to be if you can have them on your team. so. It was cool with Larkin at that point, because I just, first night really working with him and the way, I know we only had basically two shots to do that night. So time was allotted, but like the different, they reconfigured that dolly with the matrix head on it. mean, three times, ⁓ you know, to get, to, get the shot to where it needed to be. And I was like, ⁓ this is cool. This, this DP will definitely be like an ally of like, if the shot's not working, you know, and it happened on weapons too, like we will change the mode or like, and it was great to have that backbone and to have that. person with you is so confident in the fact that if something needs to change, because it's worth it, we're going to do it and it may take time. You know, that's good that you have someone obviously in your corner, you know, operating wise, undoubtedly it affects, of course, it's all the cinematography, but you know, that can, that can vary how much dedication you have from someone like that. so, yeah, doing that George shot specifically was great because a few takes in, started to get it and it, and it went pretty well. And I really liked that, that one or that kind of pushes down the bar super slow then up to this phone booth and then you bring him out and then Joaquin does this three point turn. It's just, either George pushes the lens, I'm leading him, then Joaquin tucks it into the one place he could tuck it in to get out of the way so that I keep panning right really quickly and then come behind him and follow him out and, you know, to get that under my belt and under our belt on kind of night one ⁓ was really nice. I tried to show that clip at the SOC last year. I wasn't there, but then I was told. because also the feed went out at that time and I was told that like the clip, the clip was not like, it wasn't the right time code at all. And I was like, oh, dang it. So think people saw like maybe some back third of that I was told or something weird. We were like, what? Like it's a pan. Well, I tell you what, will, I will, do you have the clip? I can get the, I can get the clip. I'll get the clip and I'll put it on the web, the webpage that we're going to put up for you for this. it's on there. Cause I actually haven't seen the movie, but I'd to see the, The reason that I ask you is, assuming that you're an operator who is progressing and getting better and better and getting bigger and bigger shows, one is an operator getting better. There is that point where suddenly you jump and suddenly you're like, oh, I'm working with big movie stars now. Like I haven't worked with big, like I've done like smaller movies with smaller people who may have hit it big after or something like that. But this is... You know, that's a big movie with big movie stars and a big budget and it's Apple and it's this and that and the other. And I'm just wondering, do you have any, you have any thoughts for people? And I don't know if you were at that point or not, but do you have any thoughts for people for when, you know, working with big, big actors that they're not used to something like that on how to proceed or how not to proceed actually, maybe what not to do? Yeah. I mean, I, I think that is part of the, the, ⁓ the operator position that I've come to enjoy that challenge of not only all the communication you have, of course, from department to department and playing that game of just being that, you know, the go-between and the coordinator of trying to get shots to work out and like the art of communication and communicating with people in a way where they enjoy communicating with you, I just, is so important, I think on set because you can very quickly turn people off obviously in how you say things. It's such a big part of what we do when we work closely with people is how you say things to other people as you're collaborating to get stuff done and all the coordination that's required. And, you the same thing with actors. I like to hide behind my humor. think a lot. like, I think I'm a bit performative. I can be a little theatrical. I think that's also what led me to like be interested in, you know, trying to send in a self tape to be Garrett Brown for I Play Rocky. There's that part of me, again, it comes back to like wanting to be seen a little bit and then not be seen. ⁓ yeah, it's again, this like kind of perfect harmony of how, where I've ended up as a camera operator for movies and with folks like, ⁓ Brad and George, don't, I, you I like to consider myself decent at reading the room and reading people. And, know, you're going to start off a little slow, ⁓ at the beginning with people, no matter who they are, let alone, you know, folks like Brad and George. And you just kind of see, okay, how do they, how do they like to do their thing? But you know, also if you carry yourself with some confidence, that's a huge. a huge deal, even if in the back of your mind you're a little apprehensive, if you can play the game of being confident when you say things or ask people things, ⁓ it obviously, I mean, and I've been on the other side of that, that washes over you in a very nice way, or it's very easy to respect someone ⁓ when they are confident. So the combination for me is I am able to lean on, I've been doing it since since 08, which isn't forever, but it's definitely, you can count on a couple hands how many years I've been doing it. that confidence of what I've seen before and what I've been involved with before and a little bit of performative communication and some humor, it's just, it's playing the game a little bit. It's just yucking it up with them a little, a slow start to that. But I like to just shroud it in a little bit of humor, even if I'm asking them to, would you consider? ⁓ you know, at this point of not only maybe being or hitting this mark, know, hitting your mark number one, of course, if you're not on it, but then like, you know, doing this other little thing or asking about some other little move that they might be comfortable doing to help out the camera, to help out the shot, ⁓ you know, and before you know it, if it's going well with them, they'll of course offer up things that they can do to, you know, to make it better for the shot that you're achieving. ⁓ So I think that answers that. I really do rely on a little bit of humor to lighten the mood, but also I'm quite serious, of course, at the same time about what I'm asking or what I'm asking if they're comfortable with. ⁓ I also am not coming at it in a way of, you know, that's I'm demanding this thing that obviously wouldn't work for Jordan or Brad. They're like, who the hell are you? Your name's Michael. I've met a few of those before. So, you know, I can I can totally see that from the from the internal point of view where the humor is because I think I do this to the humor sort of like, you know, is trying to make you feel more comfortable and make other people feel more comfortable. But do think that there's something because I'm just as you're saying this, was thinking this. Do you think that there's something in the fact that if you're an operator who's coming to them with humor, that that's saying to them, ⁓ like this is someone who's comfortable, obviously, and I can trust them. Like, you know, that they're kind of goofing around like, ⁓ they must know what they're doing because they're kind of like messing around. Do you think there's something, there's like a mental game to that? I think you're absolutely right. And I just didn't, I didn't articulate that, but I absolutely that the fact that you can be kind of a little light on your feet in that way in front of. In front of anyone and in front of talent. Exactly. It also just kind of points, guess it links to confidence a little bit, like you're saying. And that just does not hurt you in those environments. So we've mentioned it once or twice. I have to ask you about that. I'm to tell you our side of it because our side being us antiquated Steadicam operators, we heard ⁓ that there was this movie being made about the making of Rocky. And as anybody who is alive, who knows anything about Steadicam knows, ⁓ Rocky has a very big. part in the lore of Steadycam because Garrett Brown went out and did these amazing shots that really kind of, you know, that kind of put it on the map there. And so we heard that they were going to be doing this movie about the making of Rocky because apparently the Rocky franchise hasn't figured out how to make enough money off of I haven't. yet. ⁓ then we heard, ⁓ so somebody's going to play Garrett Brown. And there are all these things like who might do it and this person's too old. And then we heard your name. So I reached out to you ⁓ actually before Weapons, which I hadn't seen Weapons yet, because I had heard that you were going to be playing this part of Garrett Brown. And ⁓ the final part of my story, which then let you tell us about it, is when I travel back and forth between Atlanta and Connecticut, where my wife and I have a place, ⁓ I will usually call Garrett and tell him I'm on my way and he'll have me stop through Philly and have me over and make me breakfast and he and his wife sit and we schmooze for a while. And it's actually one of my favorite things in the entire world because he's such an interesting guy. ⁓ And I was going to be coming through on the day that you were going to be doing the ⁓ famous stair sequence. And unfortunately, I think it rained and I missed it by a day and I was so upset, but I heard Buzz and Lisa were there. So with Garrett, but so tell me about the movie. Tell me about how you got it and everything, because it's just wild to me. And then I want to hear about what is the sort of meta internal thing that happens when you're playing someone who's as important as Garrett is to us. That's a lot of weight right there. I'm not sure if I'll understand it for quite some time, or maybe it'll be different if my scenes, or at least if that big dialogue scene isn't cut, where I spiel about, I basically pitched the Steadicam to Sly and the producers and director. you know, if that isn't cut, it'll maybe I'll start to understand it even more after. But yeah, from the beginning, again, relating back to that, a little bit of, you know, performance or theater interests that I've had ⁓ in this world of what I've ended up doing anyway, but, know, drawn to that from the beginning, did a little acting in high school, whatever. mean, we're talking minimal. ⁓ But ⁓ I knew the UPM of the film. She's awesome. Karen Ramirez. If anyone gets a call from Karen Ramirez, it should ideally be a yes. She's great. And she'd asked me about interviewing with Sean Porter, you know, to do my normal thing. And I just come off of a long run on something and I was going to take a little time in the fall. And then she just before leaving the conversation, she was, you know, but we just one thing we are also considering casting like a real Steadicam Operator play to play the Garrett Brown character in this movie. Because Garrett Brown, you know, there is a character in the movie. was like, what? What is this? One of us, one of us clowns could like, you know, be a thespian for a minute. And it just seemed like some sweepstakes that I'd like, I wanted to try and enter the sweepstakes. So yeah, she was like, here, here's a, you know, send or here, you know, told casting about me. They reached out ⁓ to send in a self tape, which what an awkward, even that was awkward, you know, setting up a tripod in my little. the place and putting the camera on it and then not looking at our radio. was like, wow, I do see how weirdly drawn I am to look into the lens because it's just so awkward. you know, just- Did you consider getting a Steadicam operator to do it as one big Steadicam shot out in the I didn't. I wasn't that cute about it. I wasn't that funny or cute about it. was like, I think the point is I have to make this as drab as possible so that they can really look into my soul and see if I'm the right actor for the part I- How many times did you have to do it before you were like, this is what I'm sending in? Because I don't think I'd ever get to that point just because I'd be like, I suck. Several times. At that point, it was the main scene where it's the pitch and it got rewritten later. But as it was at that point in the script, that was the scene I was reading and not reading with anyone who was just because he has enough of a monologue-ish thing going on that I just read that to camera. And then I did use my Steadicam vest as a prop at the end because it's at During that scene, does demonstrate it. Garrett demonstrates what the Steadicam can do. So I clip it in at the end and give this really cheesy smile. the, how that, yeah, I read it. I did several reads. I sent it to a friend of mine who happens to be related to Peter Farley, who was directing the movie. He is, I think through his mom's side. And he's a grip, used to be a grip here in New York. He's more of a director in DP now. Bobby, ⁓ So not the actor, Bobby Cannavale. This is a dear and dear friend, Bobby Cannavale, who's a filmmaker. And he, I just had him, I had him look at a couple of my self tapes and I was, and he was the one that told me like, I think you need that amp, I think you need to give some more ticks. You need to like be a little bit more, even if Garrett wasn't like this, like you just needed to be a little bit more, I don't want to use the word nerdy, but you need to make this a little more interesting. Because even if you're trying to play it like how I, understood Garrett to be, who if you listen to him talk, I don't think you would call him a nerd. You'd call him a very astute, intelligent person who's kind of a genius. so Bobby was like, think just to make this more attractive to the screen, you need to give it a little something. You need have more of a tick to you, some kind of pulse that makes this part jump a little bit. so... I did that and I sent him back a redone version. He's like, I like that one. I like the one you should send that. I was like, I think this is the best I'm gonna be able to do. I'm already sweating through them. I'm just sweating through my shirt doing this awkwardly. And yeah, and then casting told me that they selected me to play Garrett Brown. I was like, gosh, this is wild. Number one, I'm also curious how many other Steadicam ops were involved. I'd like to know who else sent in, if anyone. I know that I think one or two did, but I... And I, know, obviously buzz ⁓ well versed with that crew and so on. ⁓ But I'd like to know who else would have sent it a self-date to be very curious and we can all have drinks together or something, something light. ⁓ So when you got the call, you're going to be Garrett Brown. What goes through your mind? mean, is it just complete? Cause it seems like complete fear. Yeah, exactly. For me, for me as a person, exactly. was like, okay, this is exactly what I wanted, but now I'm extremely nervous. Like, wow, what are you like? You're just gonna have sweaty palms and an upset stomach for a while. And it was, ⁓ and that's just me. That's how I am with work a lot that I'm trying to work on. I thought in my career that the more I did it, the more comfortable and like relaxed I'd become. And I think as the stakes raise and you know, the jobs get bigger and so on, my anxiety has only risen more. So was kind of bummed to see that relationship be that way. ⁓ But. with the acting, was an exciting opportunity. knew I'd have anxiety about it. did, especially, gosh, that morning before the big scene, I was like, don't even know if I'm walking on the ground right now, but it was cool to have the anxiety in a little trailer. I was like, wow, I'm in this trailer, I'm wearing the warming coat. I'm like, no, none of the other actors are wearing the warming coat. I'm the one doing it, because I've seen it. I've seen everyone else wear it. I'm like, I want to wear that thing. It looks soft. So I know, Was that an actual, did Garrett actually go and pitch them or is this something that was fabricated for the movie? Exactly. A lot of, a few things in that film are a reach and are adjusted for the sake of telling their story. mean, really number one, they don't acknowledge that a portion of Feroci was shot in LA. They make it kind of look like all of it was Philly. there's a little bit of whole big political thing there, yeah. ⁓ yep. And they're like, so then we couldn't have both of the rigs weren't involved because, know, Garrett had, ⁓ the one model at the time in Philly. And then by the time he went to LA to continue with, there was a different one. And so, Buzz supplied us with that. Cause I think Buzz had ownership of that rig, ⁓ you know, after I think things got cleared out ⁓ of, ⁓ from Garrett's, is it a barn? I calling it a shed? huge shed. No, Garrett sold the country place and they cleared out the barn and gave stuff to everybody. And Buzz took the Model 1. But I think Larry McConkey took it and like, reanalyzed it for you or something and made it look. That's a whole, another part of the experience was I'd never been out to Larry's house and Larry's barn. And when I heard that Larry was of course from, I was like, where are these props coming from? Like what's happening here? And I think it must, yes, it was Garrett that told me, yes, Larry is working. on the rig and I was like, okay, I'm going to call up Larry McConkey who had worked up, worked with a little before back in the day when he was doing Blue Bloods, when Jim was shooting Blue Bloods and Larry, Larry and Jim were the operators on one on a couple of seasons of Blue Bloods. And I weaseled my way in there at the time and gosh, I got to do a whole episode where Jim McConkey was the DP, Larry was A and I was B and I considered retiring basically. considered retirement very seriously after that episode. I was like, what am I going to do? That's like, why would I continue doing this as an operator if I just worked with Both McConkies and me, like, forget it. Like, I should just stop while I'm ahead. And I had never been out to Larry's compound. And so to go out there and sit with this mad genius and just, like, experience his sense of humor and then use my sense of humor, the both of us together, I'm like, ⁓ my God, I'm doing bits with Larry McConkey. Like, what's happening right now? And he's Garrett's, he's making Garrett's Steadicam, like, with me, you know, he's doing all the, you know, design, obviously, but I'm there, like, you know, putting this thing on and Tory Willis as well. making the vest. mean, Tory was all over the vest and of course helping Larry. work in tandem. They made the vest from scratch because it exist from back then. Basically. believe so. I believe from like, yeah, all this 3d wish there was video of this because it's probably hysterical. The behind the scenes for us of that process of Tory and Larry making, making these things so that I could. you know, be a total star is again, one of those like how fortunate, what's so fortunate can I be? And so sitting there with Larry went there a few times, you know, and learning in a way how to operate the Steadicam more or less like Garrett did back then, which, you know, comes out coming out of the vest on the right side at the time. And then having it not cross your body, staying on the right, only using your right hand. The left hand is just down by your side. You know, of course that was like, what a more of this meta historical experience of like, wow, I'm getting to. to operate, mimic the way that Garrett did it originally ⁓ and do it for this movie. It's all very, very insane. So there was that whole experience with Larry where he, know, combination of 3D printing and machining to make that rig look like it did in the pictures from back when he was using it on Rocky when Garrett had it in Philly. That was the jam. And then unfortunately we didn't get to use Buzz's rig because the movie didn't want to confuse people. with the two rigs, they really just wanted it to be like, this thing all happened in Philly and like, know, with Garrett and that. And then they also unfortunately cut all of the boxing stuff from I Play Rocky. They shot it, but not from a real world perspective. They shot it just from the movie perspective. And then a lot of us from the cast were cut. You know, we lost those days because they didn't, the few things going on and they just, they didn't want to shoot all of the real life. You know, the movie outside of the movie was not photographed for the, which is a bummer because I was really looking forward to being in the boxing stuff in the ring doing that. the guy who plays Apollo was someone I'd worked with on, if Beale Street could talk. And I was really excited to get in the ring with him and be like, so surprised that like this dude, he, you know, worked with just as a, you know, an operator on that movie was now also an operator, a star, you know? And wearing his warming coat. Yeah, we're like sitting next to him. Stephon James, he's an awesome dude and maybe we'll see each other ⁓ at the premiere if it all lines up. to me, LOL. So Garrett was there though when you did the step sequence, right? Yeah, I'm surprised. just, that day was, mean, talk about having anxiety, you know, not only for the dialogue day. Thank God Garrett wasn't there for the dialogue day, because I don't know if I could have gotten through it, but let alone the steps, you know, which were slick, had been rained on. I'm hoping even if the steps were dry that I'm not falling. you know, just messing everything up with Garrett there and I'm playing him. And also me backtrack, I told Garrett, like, I'm so sorry, Garrett, they're not even giving me a wig. Like when you watch this movie, it's just gonna look like me. Like, I'm so sorry. They're just like putting this, you know, product in my hair and it's looking like a bit more curly and, and I'm wearing, you know, some, bell bottoms, which I gotta say actually don't look bad on me. But I was so, I was so sorry that I wasn't like gonna look more like him. And he's just so just like everything else. with no matter what was happening in the way the movie was stretching things and with me not looking like I'm just so cool, such a cool customer, so appreciative, I guess, of the whole thing happening. And I'm just an absolute leader upon leaders. He's always been, and ⁓ me looking like myself was no exception. Did you know him before this experience? I'd met him only at some workshops and like a demo or two, don't think he would, I'm pretty sure he would not have remembered me before I called him. And we talked on the phone the first time, I'm like, yes, I'm going to be playing you in a film. ⁓ And he was like, yes, yes, yes, I know you are. And then proceeded to tell me, you know, the things that were happening during that time and how he did, you know, to give me his vibe and motivation back then. He was like, I was really a very, He did say he was a very cool customer and very confident in the way that he was selling the product. Of course he was. And made me know, made me aware that that was the way he was and that I be that way. he was totally a great salesman of it. And then he sent me these photos that he had of being on set in Philly and a section of his memoirs, which I guess are not publicly out yet, but all the writings he'd done of basically journaling what it was like during that time for him and how that went shooting it and all the crazy. bits of that and to read that and just talk to him about it. then obviously he did show up on that, on that stairs day. And I just so happy I didn't fall on my face and just turning around and looking at everybody talking to him, you know, from crew and, and, everyone just kind of swarming him a little bit. And then watching it from afar as I'm, in this garb that I was and playing Garrett in this movie was all very, ⁓ I don't know when that day I'll process it, but, ⁓ Yeah, I'm just not sure. I'm not sure. Maybe I'll never process it. Maybe that's the gift. It's just a little too crazy to be true. But it happened. Well, the thing that just blows me away is like, you kind of got to be a part of this thing that none of us, none of the other operators out there ever going to experience. mean, we have such reverence for him and he's a good friend. So I shouldn't say reverence. He would get upset at me. It's actually funny because it took me forever. But just because he is who he is, whenever I see him, I would say like, how are doing, sir? And he would immediately go, don't call me sir. And I go, ⁓ I'm sorry. Yeah, that's scary. I'll usually say how you doing GB now or something like that. um, but such a joke. That's that's you got to sort of, you know, reenact hallowed ground in a way or something like that. I don't know what the word is. But it's, it's pretty cool. And I was so bummed. I missed it by 24 hours because of the rain. I was so I was so excited to be there. And yeah, but then partially to see you but partially to watch him see you and I called him afterwards. And was like, I was like, how was it? And he goes, it the meta of it all I can't even begin to explain. It was surreal but amazing and it was very happy with what you had done. I tried my Garrett Brown vest but it'll never be Garrett. Yeah, I mean there's a video on my phone that he sent me of him videoing me, being him, doing the shot up the stairs. He sent me the same thing. Yeah, and I'm just, I don't how, yeah, I don't take it, believe me. I value what happened there this past fall beyond anything. ⁓ Don't take it for granted for a second, still not sure it was real. All those things, believe me, it's like completely, I'm like in some type of a planetarium and it's all happening around me, but I'm not sure I understand it. Well, it's too bad you didn't do the boxing stuff because have you ever seen the video of him where the person in front of him knocks into the woman and he pats her on the arm? you know this video? No. So I'll send it to you. It's in the movie, I believe, because in the movie you can see Garrett on the side. Yes, and I've seen that. But Charles Pappert, a very good friend of mine, a camera operator. Charles. And I think he's the one who zoomed in on it because there's a point where there was like a recording. think there was like a there were all sorts of stuff connected to Garrett back then. I don't remember what his recorder, but there's someone walking in front of him and the three of them are walking as a train and they're walking on the outside of the ⁓ of the boxing ring where people are sitting, right? And the guy in front of him accidentally, I think elbows this woman in the head, like very lightly, not, you know, but you can see she sort of recoils and Garrett's the next person in the line. And as he's shooting, he leans down and pats her on the shoulder. And I'm sure said, are you okay? Or something like that while he's doing the shot. And it's just such a classic moment of Garrett, of who he is as an individual. I mean, it's really quite lovely. ⁓ had you ever done that, it would have been cool if they had actually redone that moment. ⁓ man. Most people probably don't know it. I'll send it to you. But it's a classic. So that's ⁓ what a great story. What an incredible thing to be a part of. ⁓ And also one of those things of like who in the world would have thought that your career would have ended up doing something like that? mean, that's not me. a left field, right? Way out of left field. I'm not even sure it's in the same ballpark at all. So when they make the movie about me, can we call you? Can you do six four? Can you pull it off? I mean, didn't do six four. I didn't do his height before. And it just, if we have the budget, they can put me on, we can develop something where I could be just a little taller. All right, good. And with AI, they won't even need me. With AI, they won't even need me. Exactly. Well, that's fantastic. One of the things that I didn't ask you about was if Beale Street could talk, because you were telling me about that earlier. Tell me about that. What was that like? I mean, that was awesome to be able to end up on the film that, you know, the folks who did Moonlight did next and they came to New York and it was really helped, I think, by Christian Springer, a friend and DP who wrecked me to James Laxton. yeah, I mean, I didn't work with James or Barry, obviously, at that point. It was just cool to see the two of them do their thing and how lyrical they are with photography and telling that story, which was a slow burn, I think I would say with Beale Street. But yeah, a lot of trust given to me to do some nice steady cam work. What did we shoot then? Was that the 65, the Arri 65? It might've been. was, yeah, the Alexa 65, yes. 65, yeah. I'm pretty sure. So that was a large format fun back then. yeah, was just, it was, and I never, gosh, back, that was the first time the SOC had nominated me for something like that. didn't think I was in that realm at all of being recognized or someone, people looking at that movie and thinking that was a thing. So that kind of blew me away, but it does speak to, again, James and Barry's vision, just like weapons. You know, when you get to be a part of someone's vision, that's so. it's so good and they have such a poetic way of looking at things and framing things, then that's where, you know, someone like myself benefits quite a bit. At this point in your career, ⁓ what's the hardest part of your job? One of the hardest parts of my job is being able to handle my own anxiety before a job, honestly. That's one part. That's an internal struggle. Because it's, have all, you know, I've now done this for, as I said, for a minute. And for some reason, I still can't shake the fact of like, but what if, but what if I screw this up? What if this takes me longer to do a shot or what, you know? It's like the fear of failure just never seems to subside. And that could be something I work out in therapy for sure, but. You're not alone on Sid. I mean, think that's more, that's more the norm than not. will, I will say that I asked David Emmerich whether he gets nervous and he said, you know, don't, I don't really get nervous anymore. He gives us a little bit, but not much. And I said, okay. And then about three weeks later, he called me up and he said, I just got a call to do. a camera on the Spielberg movie, the new Spielberg movie, and I'm completely petrified. said, okay, good. Good. All right. So do you mean David Emmerich says he does have a human side to him that's always encouraging to hear? But I think, I mean, to a point, I think that's healthy, right? I think, yes, of course, it keeps your adrenaline, it keeps you alive. There's no way I'm more relaxed or too relaxed, you know, when it comes to doing the work that, you know, we are expected to do, whether you're a day playing camera op on something or an a camera operator on something fully. ⁓ yes, I am driven to do well. ⁓ and so that part, you know, my expectations for myself and, know, it do gosh, you know, I'm on a podcaster, like I'm being recognized with nominations for operating work. And I almost put that pressure, you know, additionally upon myself of like, well, well, now it's like, you've done, you've done some things and then what if you, what if you can't do the next thing? And so that's a part that keeps me awake. And outside of that, I mean, the toughest part outside of my own internal, ⁓ mental state. I think it's always the community that just the balancing act you get to do as an A camera operator on set of just making sure you can run a set at times if it falls to you ⁓ and manage all the personalities, whether in front of the camera or behind the camera and manage them in a way that you feel good about and that they like you and that, you you just want to be well-liked in that position so that everyone is happy. then sure, you get called again, ideally, because people remember. Yes, your skill, they also obviously remember a lot about how you are and how you spend those 14 hours sometimes, or more, or ideally less, ⁓ next to people. that's what's gonna get, I think that's what gets me hired sometimes, ⁓ you know, heavily because of how I've carried myself on set. And so I'm always trying to work that, you know, and not let all that crazy heckness. stress me out and get me agitated, but it's a challenge sometimes. It really is in our high pressure, and I'm using quotes, you that high pressure environment, which does it need to be high pressure? It really shouldn't because no one is getting saved. That's not medical. We're not making huge advances, yeah. It's money and people's careers and all that other stuff. But so how do you not let that stress get to you or how do you keep that at bay and not let it affect you? Have you found like... things that you do or is it just sort of catch or scatch can? It's funny in the, know, lot of the stress comes before and then when I'm in the moment, you know, that there is something to be said, of course, about when you're in the moment, you're not thinking about the what ifs, because the what ifs are happening to you and then you're just reacting in the way that you have, you know, either reacted before or you're, you know, you've faced a situation and now this time, you know, it's great because you've had that experience prior and you can maybe treat a situation differently and. You know, there is, I of course will admit there's confidence brought from all the experience I've had and that's very helpful in those moments. But I don't, mean, there's exercises now that I'm just trying to be, you know, in terms of agitation and not letting some of those things get to me, it's just, you know, a quick zoom out. You you know that if you let yourself go a little bit, you show a little bit of that sweat or frustration that you're always going to regret it later. ⁓ And you wish, you know, you wouldn't have gotten seen in that way or. been broken in that way. it's of course, knowing that, knowing the flip side that you never want to walk away from a day and be like, ⁓ like that, you you let yourself crack a little bit or your personality, that weakness and your personality, being able to juggle all the things, you know, happen to you and, and knowing that I don't want that, of course, is one thing, but then being able to zoom out and be aware of like what I'm feeling is a very small microscopic thing in the sense of everything. And in the sense of life in general is what I, I do try to remember. that. when I get in the car at the end of that day, I don't regret having a moment where it was just like, you know, something was challenging and I didn't meet it with calm. It's so hard to be calm all the time, but it's so important and people remember that. Have you, back, talking about stress, have you ever had a ⁓ shot that just, like a point where you just failed at something, where it didn't work, you couldn't pull it off? ⁓ I got you. remember early, early in my career, I just had a really heavy build and I was doing this indie movie, this shot that took someone out from a restaurant to their car that's parked at like the far end of the lot. And I just had got back in the day, it must've been like a D 21 and a full on deck recorder on there. And I was young still. And I just remember being like, shoot, man, this shot is like too much for me right now. Like I'm like two or three takes in and I'm dying. And I just, remember having to go to the DP and tell. him that I was think I was going to struggle to complete the next, the next take, ⁓ based on my physicality. I don't remember exactly what we did. I don't remember what the, but it was at least it's like the DP was pretty great about it. I mean, nothing exploded, ⁓ back then. ⁓ when I said that, like I was struggling to do this and I wish I could say I knew what the. I mean, more or less, was just the, you know, the idea of being able to say when something, when it comes to physicality, like that specific issue. I mean, I'm glad I said something, because it would have been, I think, worse if I tried to do it and then just kind of like failed or, I don't know what would have happened if I couldn't complete the shot, but I did ⁓ have open communication at that time of like, okay, there's some, I'm not, I'm not up for this, doing it this way with, you know, with this thing that I'm carrying right now. You know, I didn't have a prep on that job. showed up, it was just a day play thing and it was like, oh my gosh, okay, it's going to be this plus this. I didn't have a chance to get- this and lose. Yeah, I didn't have a chance to be out in front of it at all. So that's life. communicating, you know, saying before it got too late, it was good that I said that. And I don't know, there's only been one job where a lot of steady chem ops were coming in and out of it. Any other DP was kind of tough and like, I remember not being called back. ⁓ an additional day for it. remember having to be in like low mode going around a table and like fricking my, top of the sled was probably hitting the ceiling. was tough style. wasn't the best. Yeah. Probably long take. I'm to go slow. I don't know. I probably like, I I do remember hitting the ceiling once. and it just, I had felt like a kind of like a sticky, not sticky is another right word, but it was, it wasn't a, it was a chilly environment and you know, I didn't get called back on that one to do any more additional work on that. that, and that was okay. that, maybe that's for the best. And maybe that's for the best. I remember several people like coming in and out of there, but it's either that or the other, the thing that is probably always a challenge is the different personalities you work with. And when someone like a director of photography is very caustic or makes you feel like you're not doing a good job, even if maybe in that person's mind, believe it or not, they do think you're doing a good job, but the way they know how to work is to just beat you down. over the comms literally while you're operating. I had an experience like that where I just hadn't had that before. And to have that kind of, where you just kind of on edge the whole time on those comms, while you're operating just doesn't feel like they're not helping you very much. But then sometimes maybe they'll tell you other times when you're not at work that you're doing great and you're just like, how do you... How do you handle that? Because then you come back in to work on that Monday and they're just berating you again. And that's like an interesting test of just what we do as operators, I think, is to how do you work under all those different conditions and all those different personalities? And I remember, did I handle it? I don't know, I just, took it. You you have to take it. ⁓ One time I kind of like, you know, spoke back to this person. And they were like, oh, I didn't know you. I didn't know you felt that way. And I was like, I think I needed to just do that once to you, just because I don't know how else to handle this. like, I don't know why you haven't fired me yet if you talk to me in this way. But I was kind of told that this is how this person works with operators, no matter who they are. And I was like, huh, well, the fact that this person hasn't actually fired me, I guess is encouraging. It's just playing that game of how do you handle all these different people's ways that they work with you. Yeah. And I think Personally speaking, when you run into those people who are constantly belittling and whatever, I look at that immediately. the way at least I deal with that is, well, first I go, are they right? Am I doing crappy work? Why didn't you tilt up at that point? And you're thinking, I did tilt up at that point. So assuming it's not me, which is always my first go-to. this just reminds me of, do you know the actor Brad Whitford? Bradley Whitford? Yeah, yeah, I did. One or two days ago, I'm going to think, yeah. That Brad, he's fun. He's wonderful. But Brad told me a while ago that every time a director comes up to him with a note, he goes through three very distinct ⁓ points. says, ⁓ fuck you. I suck. What do you need? ⁓ wow. That's sort of simple. That's like I might go, I suck. Fuck you. Whatever. ⁓ So first I try to figure out if it's if it's if it's accurate. And then the next thing I realized is if it just keeps on going on is, actually Tommy Shalami, a director, kind of pointed this out to me with actors who are tough. He said, that's a very, very frightened individual. Right. Because that's the only reason that someone would react that way consistently is that they're trying to deflect from their own insecurities. And so I sort of, I sort of embraced that and I go, okay, so this isn't about me. This is about that person. and I'm gonna take what I take and I'm gonna push away. But I know what you're saying is like that could be a very tough situation and it's not a situation you wanna go back into, that's for sure. No, no, but I also will say of course, mean, most would agree that you wonder about the insecurities of course of that person and that's 100%. And it's so weird when it comes from a person who's so accomplished and who does really good work. It's just like you're like, how in this business does this keep happening with some of these people who've been around a while, they're so good, their resume is beyond, they don't need to. anything anymore and yet they still work in this manner. It's just an interesting thing to see. Well, and I think people, it burns into them and that's just who they are. What do you, what's your procedure process for working with B Camera? How do you like to work with B Camera? Is it like a complete synergy or are they doing, you expect them to do their own thing and find their own shots? Like how does that work? For me, I want to incorporate whatever other cameras are available to just exactly whatever the director and the DP want from those cameras. I don't know, just, I mean, I think we all have an ego inside of us. And I've learned that even though I like to pretend that I don't have one, like I know it's there, it's what fuels us a little bit. But when it comes to that stuff, like I will change my shot. I mean, I don't care if I'm A in the person C or B, like, you as long as we're getting what we need. ⁓ I want to work as closely and as collaboratively with the other camera operators who are there 100%. So as long as the information coming down from director and DP land is that we need these two cameras, maybe three, maybe more doing whatever they're meant to be doing, then I want to make sure everybody gets the best shot they possibly can. just, would feel very odd going away from any situation like that where I tried to take more. more land than I should have or something. I just, I want it to work. That's something I definitely pride myself on is like when there's operators alongside, I, I want us to be all in it together. And if, ⁓ if we can make that other shot next to me better or across the room from me better, wherever they are, then I definitely want to do that. ⁓ whatever that takes, if that answers that question. No, no, that's great. I mean, it's, it's funny because it used to be, ⁓ when I got in anyway, and maybe, maybe when you started too, it used to be the A camera operator was like, I don't care what you need, I'm here. That's that. And now I think maybe societally things have changed to where it's like, no, we're all working this together. And it's even like the thing of like, I can't give you that, but how would we do this? Let me do this and then I'll pull that piece of track for the next take and you can grab that or whatever. It's about telling the story, but I think that's changed a lot. ⁓ So I'm gonna put you on the spot with something that I didn't tell you about, but I've started to do a little bit. ⁓ Five movies you can think of that you think an up-and-coming operator should see. ⁓ that's going to kill me because I'm a terrible cinephile, Dave. ⁓ you? I'm just bad. I'm just bad. ⁓ man. mean. How about this? I'll change it then. A handful of movies that are inspiring to you that you've seen. Sure. Even so, wish I had prepped that question or that answer for you. What comes to mind, ⁓ I was gonna say that if someone asked me, I would say go watch Weapons, but you can't say Weapons. I mean, I, geez, the fact that you would say that again is like, am I even on this podcast? Everybody should see that. Incredible. I mean, Children of Men, I remember watching in college and just being like, geez, Louise, that looks so fricking fun and it's so well done. Honestly, God, the BMW short films from when I was also in Caldessa and I learned to like Robert Richardson was and a couple other people those like, yeah, all those had a crazy cinematic vibe to them. And like, I remember that really being like an effective thing just again, when I was in school and learning, you know, starting to just get in touch with all these things that were also cinematography and operating heavy. with Daniel Craig? That thing? It was Clive Owen. Clive Owen, sorry, Clive Owen, you're right. Oh my God, I forgot about those. Those are really amazing. Yeah, yeah, that's so funny. That's cool. Yeah, that I remember, and that the children members were on the same time. Also with Clive Owen, don't know, maybe it's a Clive Owen thing, maybe just any Clive Owen movie. It's like you watch for operating, who's to say? Basically anything Colin Anderson has done, Scott Sakamoto, mean, the McConkies, Dave Kamaitis, like, Andrew Rowland. It's just like on and on. Like, you know, the steady shots, fricking just. which is now exists again. It's like, take a look at those films, sure. And then look at the movies that they're a part of. yeah, gosh, I wish I could remember probably one or two others that I should totally say. Is there like a genre out there that you haven't done yet that you sort of go, really would love to do a? hmm. Uh huh. What would that genre be? I've been lucky. I think I've gotten, you know, even, you know, with horror a little bit now and certainly comedy and like, Gosh, weapons almost hit a couple different genres you could argue within itself. what weapons was. That's exactly, that's the beauty of it. On that note, when you read the script, it basically like, ⁓ this is gonna be really good or was it, this is so weird, I can't quite tell whether, I could see that not working, I guess. Totally, no, for me, because I read a, I've read a good amount of scripts since I started in the biz, but you know, these days, especially like an original, totally original idea that to me read like a thriller mystery thing more so than a horror, like it had its horror elements. But I had a hard time describing to people before I was gonna go work on it when I described the movie. I rarely wanted to use the word horror because to me it really did kind of feel like a thriller. I thought it was a thriller. I thought it a thriller, it had a horror elements and it had like a little bit of light comedy, of course, which really ended up showing through quite a lot at the end there. And yes, reading it, that's what made me stick with that movie. I kind of had to dodge other things or like, just kept holding on for weapons to go because of casting issues and the strikes and like, to back out of a project once weapons went away and then it came back two weeks later. Within that time I had said yes to someone. I felt terrible. was like, I have to stick with this movie weapons. I I felt it from reading the script and knowing Larkin and Zach. And it was like, yes, that was, I had to because I didn't know, you know, at least I think I. can tell when an opportunity comes along that you believe in and weapons was certainly that. I mean, look at, ⁓ it's got me on the podcast. mean, obviously I think I did the right thing. No, no, no. You did great. The movie for me that was like that was Donnie Darko. I remember I read Donnie Darko and I was like, don't care what happens. I have to be a part of this movie. it was so, but actually there are two things I thought about about that movie that I want to ask you about. One has nothing to do with you, but when I was watching it and I'm wondering whether this was an underlying theme that they talked about. there was this whole interesting thing of you never know what a kid is going through at home and why they may be acting a certain way. Was that a very specific theme that they talked about within the movie? Because that hit me halfway through. was like, there's like a whole metaphor going on here that maybe, I 100%. I don't want to over speak because I only know so much, but I'm pretty sure that is exactly what was coming through from possibly Zach Kroeger's experience. in his life prior and why it was part of the reason why this, why he wrote this film and what he addresses in this film. Well, or just a message that's out there, this happens and you never know. just, that hit me all of a sudden. I was like, oh wow, this is actually really powerful. And then the other thing I forgot to ask you about was the kid chase at the end of the movie. First of all, like the craziest thing I've ever seen. It's just amazing. And actually it's so well done because there's so many of those great shots where it's like, you you're looking at the fence and it's quiet and then you slowly hear them and then they just slam through and they're screaming and they're running. there's one, there's one shot that like, I mean, there's a lot of shots that run through a house. There's one shot that like runs through a house and goes through a ⁓ glass plate window that blows. Yes. Yeah. No, the So that was one of the reasons why Connor was still in town as we thought we wanted to do that shot that chases the girl in pink who's an adult stunt artist, but short enough to fake it as maybe one of the kids. And so ⁓ that screen is like, a real screen thing that she breaks through the, ⁓ gosh, was the glass, does she break? Yeah, I think she breaks through like. I assume the glass was digital maybe. It might have been. Gosh, I can't remember. then she jumps through the window and then he just jumps through the window after her, right? Yeah, the window is real thing. And then she goes through that. So we thought we were going to do that ⁓ with Connor running with the Ronin in the ring and then me on what is called, I guess, the Force Pro, which is kind of that box you can hold that you can operate the Ronin that way to give it also kind of a mimic-y pan bar, what have you. Cause you could put it on a fluid head and do the same thing. And we thought we would do it that way, dual again, and with a kind of like a bit of a frenetic vibe. And then we just couldn't, you know, had a half day to do that shot company move halfway. Then we spend the rest of the day doing that shot. Couldn't get the signal to hold no matter where I was in the, in the house, uh, where, and where Connor was with the Ronin. And then it was like, he'd, you know, he'd already run the route at that, at that point of a few times. And, um, once it wasn't working, it was like, should we just have Connor just hold the camera? Just, just handhold and run. ⁓ awesome. And that's what we did and he wore the backpack rig and then put it in what he called turret mode. And then we called turret mode after that of just, know, stripped down camera handles, the pistol grips, the spider grips rigged to the side on each side of the camera. And with the backpack on, he just ran and I'm not sure. That's great. Pretty sure I could not have done that shot as well. He's just like, he's a bigger, stronger dude and he's, you know, a just used to moving the camera so well through like high energy environments. you're just like, people ask me if some of the people are still impressed that it's handheld at all. I'm like, yeah, that's how good of a command he had on that, on that camera. So he ran, he got to do that fun, fun shot running after the stunt woman. Yeah, the glass was digital, right? And then, but the window was not, and he gets to go out that ramp, you know, after her, after she breaks through the thing and out onto the lawn. And then we pick up with the other stuff. yeah, I forgot about that whole sequence. Cause it's, and especially like, when they come, they break through the front of the house. Don't they like, do they break down the walls of the house or something? Maybe the door or something? When they first come out, it's just like a stream of kids. It's amazing. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. have Amy goes out the house. Then we have a techno crane. Yeah, a little pullback as all the kids come out of the house, out of those windows and chase her. And then, you know, you're in the back patio, older couple eating, and then you pan with her. You know, she runs through and then I'm following her at one point with. in the same thing turret mode like Connor did. And then we also have a motorcycle with a movie on the back and leading the kids through that backyard on a motorcycle. then little calm shots, know, some more static shots. The kids just run through where you have the sound or the boom operator. Marty is the guy with the lawnmower who then looks stops and looks at the kids. That's the boom operator who got, know, again, it's what happens. You know, I'm not the only one playing Garrett Brown. There's other, you know, illustrious positions and movies played by crew. Marty's one of them, love that guy. He does a great job as lawnmower man. And then the sequence just, ⁓ and then getting those kids of course to rip her body apart. Sorry for the spoiler, it was hard, hard of course to get children so young to like be full of rage and look that way and be convincing as they this amazing prosthetic body made by these two individuals, I forget their names, who made the most incredible prosthetics on that film. ⁓ rip this body apart was, you I don't know if those kids will ever forget that. I know I won't. I'm hoping those children kind of understand what they did in an artistic way at some point in their lives. Yeah. Wow. ⁓ The other thing that just occurs to me I want to ask you about is I got to imagine watching a performance like Amy Madigan gave. It must be one of those situations where you're like, this is so close to being ridiculous that it's like, it's probably hard to tell. where it lies, right? It's either gonna be unbelievable or it's gonna be over the top. Because she was amazing in that movie. Just incredible. I mean, the whole film, you could argue, yeah, you're wondering how it's gonna land and gosh, it landed in such a way that Zach, for sure, did not think it would have such an initial success and a reaction. But Amy, when I talk about Amy, it's like she was so amazing. Obviously it's Gladys, but she acted in so many scenes, you know, with the young kid with Carrie, Christopher, who plays Alex, and he's so young. And she could be, you know, Amy was so good at doing these scenes with Carrie, the young actor, and going between just being, you know, as ridiculous as she was and creepy as Gladys, and then at the same time in between takes just being there for Carrie and just being such a great, you know, adult support. Colleague or collaborator. Yeah, you can just imagine it. Like she was so there for him and so good at getting him to be in these scenes with her and then doing the Gladys thing and then switching back to ⁓ being just a normal human who was like understanding that this kid is doing some wild stuff and reacting to her and all the things. So Amy was incredible as Amy ⁓ and incredible obviously the performance and the hair and makeup. Obviously just an amazing job creating this character and my probably the only time I've ever regretted my career not like asking for a photo, going away from a project with, know, with Gladys, with Amy as Gladys, just to have that, me, just me with my arm around her, it would have been so nice as a memory to look back on from Atlanta there, but I just never do that and I didn't do it then. That's the only regret. What are you gonna do though? What are you gonna do? Yeah. Well, listen, this has been really fantastic. I want to thank you so much. It's so great to get to talk to you. And, you know, we met at that SOC thing, but you were obviously a little busy there as well. ⁓ But phenomenal work. And I can't wait to see the stuff you keep on doing because it's great. You're obviously very dedicated to the craft. So thank you for raising the bar for all of us. I'm going to leave you with the question that I leave everybody with and you can take us out with this. ⁓ Advice for someone who is up and coming in the business on how to succeed and or maybe something you know now that you wish you had known back then. Sure and are we talking like specifically you know as in the operator position would you say or could this be anything in a kind of our world? It could be the larger thing if you want it's really what tickles your fancy what do you got? I would say I mean I well I'll speak from an operator perspective ⁓ In terms of getting into this business, mean, it is very helpful to be obsessed with it. It's very helpful to be paranoid about what you want to do and how well you want to do it and just having that driving force, which a lot of people, they want to do, I think what we do have an extreme passion for it or are obsessed in a healthy way of like, you know, being able to do this for a living. And it's still considered somewhat. It's an art, you get to be so creative and artful in what we do moving the camera or not moving the camera. And I'm just so thankful that my dad put this movie camera, the little home video camera in my hands. I grew up in Florida and we went to Disney World a couple of times and to have that in my hands early was so awesome. And then piggybacking on that, it's like, and operate and photograph as much as you can so that you can develop these instincts that you don't. you don't really have to think about or at least let that non-thinking kind of zen inform you as you're shooting these things and as you're operating, let's say on a set ⁓ or maybe you're operating in some other form or other world, that's of course a valid thing to understand too, is it doesn't necessarily have to be scripted or fiction. can be in live and there's so much amazing work going on in live television and all those amazing things you get to watch people do on the fly. ⁓ and controlling their own focus at the same time if it's on steady camera or not on steady cam and there's so much there's so much camera operating out there and every world is quite different but I think a lot of it is rooted in in your instincts and the lack of thinking you have to do when you're in the moment because once you start thinking about something that's when your brain can start to like malfunction a little bit I find and and you lose that beautiful Zen thing that has you panning tilting or moving your body in a way that you know is right for the shot and feels good and When you start to think about that, sometimes it can get a little, a little tougher. So as much as you can get your hands on a camera, if possible, that is obvious. I've been very fortunate in that way in my early life and then having that help in my career. just the amount of reps you can get always, always helps. ⁓ Something I didn't know that I wish I knew, but that I feel like I've come around on in a good, in a good way is that, is that art of communication and the balancing act of all the different personalities you have to juggle from. within a job, from job to job. It would have been cool to maybe know that, but also I felt like I discovered that in such a natural way of like, as it just kept coming at me, these work environments, project to project, I started to almost like the challenge of kind of killing everyone with kindness or the humor that I talked about and like kind of artfully dancing around that way of being a point person, which the A-Camera operator position is so much about. And then it's like, gosh, maybe only 35 % of it ends up being the panning and tilting or something. And then all that other stuff you do on a set preparing to actually do the shot is what takes up so much time and what can get you hired repeatedly. So if you can kind of be a healthy mind and body, which I'm still working on, definitely still working on that really helps us in our really kooky traveling circus of a job that we do. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on theop.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.