Operator Rochelle Brown

Dave C: On today's episode, we'll talk about the importance of getting people coffee, Federal Express, Django Unchained, Resball, and of course, eavesdropping on the walkies. Just a little bit of business before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. As always, our website, theop.io is up and chock-full of tips, tricks, and gooey operator goodness. Make sure to check out the breakdown where the best operators in the biz explain shots they have done. The musings where we discuss everything from quick tips to larger concepts of storytelling. The answers, the images, and so much more. This episode is brought to you by the Fullex Max. So you want to practice your handheld, steady cam, or even on the wheels, but you don't have a full-size camera to use? Well, fear not. The Fullex Max is here. It allows you to attach your DSLR or other lightweight camera and distribute that weight in a multitude of ways. Now you can practice with a camera cage that feels the same as just about any size professional camera out there. For more information, check out Folexmax.com. And as an added bonus to listeners, mention this podcast and you'll receive $100 off on your order. That's F-A-U-X-L-E-X-M-A-X.com. Finally, if you enjoy this podcast, please follow us, write a review, share us with your parents, and talk us up around the water cooler with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the op. Thanks for listening. Black it up, nice and quiet, and let's roll. Victor 30 Echo Take 2. camera set. Hello everybody and welcome back to The Op, the podcast where we talk about operating and the art of visual storytelling. My name is Dave Kamaitis, I am your host and ⁓ we are yet again here in Panavision Woodland Hills in their fabulous theater because it sounds so much better than the basement of my house. ⁓ I appreciate them allowing us to be here. I am very, very excited today because I have a young steady cam operator, B camera steady cam operator, named Michelle Brown. Some of Rochelle's credits ⁓ as a B-camera, steady-camera operator include an upcoming feature which is not out yet called Res Ball, directed by Sydney Friedlander, who's a director who I've worked with who's great, ⁓ Little America, Angeline the mini-series, I did not know there was a mini-series about Angeline, and as a second AC, which is what she was doing before she made the jump to camera operating, Judas and the Black Messiah, Homecoming, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Westworld, Suicide Squad, And as a PA, Django Unchained, which I want to ask you about because I know a couple of people who worked on that. Rochelle, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me, I don't remember the last time I saw you, but I see you since the Heart of the Fall. I must have, right? I think we have. OK, Rochelle and I, have a very stra- So was that the first time we met? It wasn't the first time we met, but it was the first time we almost worked. Yes, so- There's a feature called The Harder They Fall, Western in Santa Fe, New Mexico. And Sean Bobbitt was the DP, and I flew out. And Greg Williams was the first AC, and Rochelle was the egg camera second. And I had heard all about, I knew Greg sort of, and I'd heard all about you. I was all psyched. Went out there to New Mexico, did what, two days of rehearsal? You guys are probably there longer prepping, I would imagine. Yeah, we were A day or two of rehearsal, and then we got a call. into Netflix's offices and they said, there seems to be a bug going around and we're going to shut down for two weeks. And that was the beginning of the pandemic. And needless to say, yeah. So when we ended up doing the movie, what, a year later or two years or whatever it was, it was a different cinematographer and I was on board, but they had a different camera crew. And unfortunately we didn't work together. And then actually Sean called me for Judas and the Black Messiah and I wanted to do it, but I couldn't. I couldn't do a location show right then, so I missed out on that one too. Oh, so close. of these days. But now you're an oper... Well, maybe we'll work together as operators on the same show one of these days. But anyway, so we met there and I thought it would be great to have you here. I was telling you before, you know, you're a newer operator, so I kind of am interested in hearing what your journey is like right now because I can talk about it, but it was 30 years ago and who knows, you know, I'm still talking about when... Movies were hand cranked, but I'm getting ahead of myself. Tell me your story. How'd you get here? What's your story? What's my story? My story is that I was born in a little hospital in Port Antonio, Portland, Jamaica in March of 1987. I didn't know you were from Jamaica. Yeah. Wow. Okay. All right. And then my parents and I immigrated to the United States in 1996, December 7th, actually. I'll never forget that day. 1996 to Atlanta, Georgia. And you know, like immigrating to a new country is always a difficult process. So I didn't necessarily enjoy it at first. How old were you? I was nine. Oh, that's a great time to be going to a new country, Right? all your friends and oh yeah, no problem there. Exactly. so like, it was like a really interesting time and like rocky few years. And then I... By the made it to high school, I had this really great best friend and what we used to do on Fridays is that her dad would drop us off at the movies. And that was the first time I had been able to go to the movies. We literally, I remember when I graduated high school, we had stacks of movie ticket stubs because we went kept your stubs. I love I always did. That's great. But we would go every single Friday, we would see whatever the newest movie was. Nice. And sometimes we would see two movies and that was just our thing. And so that's honestly how I got into like watching movies all the time. But before I was interested in photography and my mom had bought me like a 35 millimeter Canon camera one summer. I just started to snap photos of everything like my nieces, everyone in my family. And I started to get them developed and see, you ⁓ this is what I'm doing. And then when I entered. Like maybe my junior or sophomore, junior year in high school, I found out that we had a class called Mass Media. And the reason I really wanted to take it was because you got to leave class early and you got to run around school with a little video camera. And so I finally got into that class and I remember that teacher, like I've since talked to her since I've graduated. And she would like, she taught us like, I remember her showing us Citizen Kane. And like the Truman Show. Do you remember liking Citizen Kane? I hated it. I was like, what is this build up to? And then when it comes out that bruise, it's a sled, I was like, really? By the way, anybody listening to the podcast, I'll put a spoiler at So sorry. So sorry about that. Some really angry people. But that's so funny. But you know, it got me into just like... Like, because she would like give us little assignments, like, what is hard light? What is soft light? And like defining things like that, you know, as a 17 year old, you're not really like really truly understanding what it is that you're doing. But what she also did was she made us do a TV show, like a morning news segment. And when I got to my senior year, there was no one else to anchor it. So I, me and my... One of my best friends at the time turned out, ended up being the anchors of So this is like shown in the school and homeroom or something? Every Friday. ⁓ that's so fun. They gave us a slot. Please tell me, do you still have these videos? I have some of them. have some of them. I'm going to put this, hopefully, if you'll let me, I'll put it up as a compliment to this podcast. I'll try to find them, but they're hilarious. you totally should. That's great. it's like, you know, the cheesy green screen with the terrible background. see it now. Like, I remember we had like a little book. They were called Magic that we would edit on these little magic boxes. And you could put the disk in and then you would like scroll through the different backgrounds you want and then you would click it and it would automatically populate behind your head. And it was just like terrible. I'm sure it was totally cheesy. Totally cheesy. But like that got us into like so we would shoot the news segments and we would get stuff from like all the coaches, the teachers would give us announcements. this was the school news. Yeah it was the school news and so and but then we would do little segments so we'd go out and we'd shoot like little commercials for like home ec or something like that and then we would also like shoot the basketball and football games and pep rallies. So we'd always have something to put in between the segments. I loved it because it was so creative and I had never done anything like that before. And I would like, she would allow me like certain students to take home the magic boxes and I'd go home, put on my TV and edit on the weekends like to finish my segments up and stuff like that. But that's when I really like truly like understood. was like, ⁓ wow, I really like this. Like this is something that I could do. Now granted, I had no idea about the film industry. I didn't even know this was a job I could do. And so it wasn't until she was like, what college do you want to go to? She's like, there's a school called SCAD. I'm like, SCAD? She's like, no, SCAD, ⁓ the Savannah College of Art and See what the SCAD? Yeah. It's a great school. It's wonderful school. just backing up, I'm assuming that the Atlanta that you're talking about was not. what it is today with the huge film industry. It's like there wasn't, okay. There wasn't anything. There wasn't anything at all in Atlanta. And actually they didn't even have film as a major in their Atlanta campus when I was there in 2005. So I ended up going to Savannah, Georgia and majoring in cinematography. Okay. And ⁓ from there I met... One, because our college has this film festival that's massive and it takes over all of downtown Savannah. I've heard of this. Actually, know, do you know who Alan Caso is? Yeah. Alan Caso is, I think he's the cinematography professor there. Yeah, I interviewed him, actually. He told me all about SCAD and we talked at length about it. Yeah. It sounds, and he mentioned something about the film festival. They're actually, he told me they're actually now ⁓ building full sound stages on, like, you know, feature quality sound stages. on the behind scatter as part of it that they're actually gonna use as money makers to rent out to film companies. That's smart and that's awesome. I actually know Alan. Alan was, I met him on the very first show I ever like, P.A.'d on. He was the first D.P. and he was very nice to me, like talking to me about Steadicam. he ever tell you about Roar? No. So for anybody who's... Listen to the Alan Kay episode. I won't tell you too much, but Roar was this movie that was made over about seven years in California with about 40 real lions and people got scalped. He was put in the hospital a couple of times. He was a camera assistant. It's the craziest movie in the world. And he was the camera assistant on it. It's crazy. ⁓ wow. So, anyway, side track. look it up after you listen to this episode. look up Alan Caso and listen about Roar. But super nice guy and a study camera operator, one of the earlier study camera operators. But yeah, so SCAD was great, SCAD was scary, SCAD was amazing, SCAD was, because I had no experience, I had no one I could talk to about film. I knew absolutely no one in this industry. So for me, it was very intimidating because I'd never picked up a- Motion picture can never picked up a film camera nothing like that and all of a sudden was that the same for most of the people who were going there at that time no, no that was the scary part was that I was in class with all these people who like knew film terms already had like shot 8 millimeter movie 16 millimeter, and I was just like I've never touched one before so you know as an 18 year old you feel intimidated by those people and and also because I knew like I was like my parents can't afford to send me to school I just got to make sure I stick to it and I make my grades. I have to have at least a B average to stay in here and that was like my main concern. But SCAD was great because I got to meet so many, not only a lot of film people, but because it's such a huge art school, you end up, like when you graduate, if you are like, if you go out there and try to make friends with a whole network of people that do so many things. ⁓ like that's, that was probably my biggest takeaway from SCAD was like, the network I was able to gather. That's cool. But from SCAD, okay, so from SCAD, I, at our film festival, my friend and I, who were, she was also a film major, we happened upon this panel and we asked this woman a question and we talked to her, like everything was random. We talked to her afterwards and she's like, hey, my company has an internship. We're in LA if you want to interview for it. Like, I'll put a good word in for you. We're like, okay, sure. So literally our next spring break, we set up an interview, we bought plane tickets with like four of our friends, flew out here, interviewed for the internship, got the internship, flew back to SCAD, and that was like our junior year that we got it, I believe. And that's kind of how I ended up out here. I was like, all right, let's just pack up our, literally like two days after graduating in May 2005, we packed everything. and drove out to California with like literally like 600 bucks in my account. That's great. Okay, adventure time. So what year is this? This was 2009. 2009. And again, there was no film industry in Atlanta, like nothing. Zero. There wasn't even anything like in Atlanta proper. So what would you do for this company? So for this company, I actually ended up with two internships because I opened my mouth and I literally because I don't know. I'm just one of those people who if I hear something I'm like, ⁓ yeah, blah, blah, blah, I'm interested in that. And then things happen. And so I just happened to open my mouth one day and was like, ⁓ my God, I love Davis Guggenheim. I love his documentary, An Inconvenient Truth. And they're like, you want to go intern in his office? I was like, sure. Wow. Absolutely. So at this internship, so I would go to Davis Guggenheim's office in Santa Monica on Mondays to transcribe ⁓ Waiting for Superman. ⁓ wow. Great movie that I don't think a lot of people saw. It is a great movie. It's an important movie that I don't think a lot of people saw. Watch Waiting for Superman. Go check that So good. So well done. And he's, I worked with, he directed an episode of ER like eons ago and I worked with him. Did you really? Yeah. He's such a nice guy. Super nice guy. Yeah. ⁓ But yeah, so I was trying to that's when I learned what even transcribing was like how you cut together Documentary and all of that because everyone in his production office were just wonderful people would just teach me anything I wanted to learn that's great And so I would do that for one day and then I would go to the company was called participant media ⁓ yeah, sure and so I'd go there I think it was two times a week in Beverly Hills to work in their office and after Like around, the internship was coming to an end and I had heard that Davis was executive producing a TV show called The Defenders. And so, I don't know who told me to do it, but I walked up to him one day and I was like, hey Davis, I heard that you're producing this TV show. I was wondering if I could give you my resume and you could possibly give it to them because I would love to be a PA on it. Kid you not, two weeks later, I get a phone call from someone and they're like, Hi, Rachelle, we've got your resume here. We'd like to know if you'd like to come in to interview for the show called The Defenders, and I literally nearly dropped the phone. Wow. And so I went in, interviewed, and got the job on the spot, actually. As like an on-set PA or an office PA? Office PA. I was one of three office PAs. And so But a paid gig now. Yes, paid good in the industry and that was key for me because I was still working at FedEx office so I had my day job day job. yeah, my day job day job was like working at FedEx office in Beverly Hills. So FedEx is nine to five or whatever and then you're interning at two separate things. Okay, you're essentially you're lazy. ⁓ yeah, I was super lazy. You're not driven in any way. in Pasadena, driving all the way every day. Are you sleeping on someone's couch or what? Oh no, was, four of us got a place in Pasadena. And it was like a three bedroom, because my boyfriend at the time was out here too. So it was like a three bedroom like townhouse that we shared. was like $600 a month for rent. And we're like, My mind, when I first, my first place was an apartment that I had myself and I don't quite, it was in Whittier, so it must've cost nothing. But the second place that I lived was right across the street from Disney Studios. Cause I remember you could go down to the end of our street and you could see like the, the dwarfs holding up the roof on Disney. It's not Disney Studios, it's like Disney corporate, guess, or whatever, over in Burbank. And it was technically speaking a one, technically speaking a two bedroom house. And we had five guys living in there. So we put a door on the living room and someone lived in there. ⁓ I had this in between room that I think was a sun room that was maybe eight feet by 10 feet, and that was my room. There was a pool, like pool table room in the back that one of the other guys lived in. And then the other two guys lived in the bedrooms. And I think we were just paying like 200 bucks a month or something like that. I was delivering prosthetic hips to hospitals to make money. So anyway, that's another story entirely. Okay, that's awesome. That's more exciting than a FedEx office. I actually picked it because I thought it would be interesting. would show me around LA. anyway, so your FedEx office, so get the PA job. ⁓ The defenders the defenders it was a literally first season. Yep. It was Jerry O'Connell and Jim Belushi Jerry O'Connell super nice guy is a sweetheart work with him bunch of times and he remembers everyone's name Yeah, right, right. I'm like Jerry. How do you do that? He's like, I don't know. it's just there Yeah, meanwhile, I'm like, I know you're the star but your name is I can't remember Same thing. You're like, that's great cool. but like So got the job, we shot the pilot, we were down and I was like, what is this downtime? Am I ever gonna get another job? And then it got picked up and then I did a year on that show. It was a 22 episode order ⁓ TV show. And so was like one of three office PAs. We were shot on CBS Radford. And what was really cool about that show was that They were super open to just like, they knew that I didn't want to be a writer or a POC or anything like that. And so they're like, what do you want to do? was like, camera department. They're like, okay, no problem. So what they would do is every time there was distro for camera, I always took it to them so I could get to see what an actual set was and I would get to like interact. Like that's how like I would talk to Alan. I'd go over to set, bring them their distro. hang out for second. ⁓ huh. ⁓ that show was Alan Queso. I either missed that or I didn't get it. ⁓ I got you. Yeah, yeah that was the So you basically bring them all the paperwork they needed and be like hey what's going on here? And just be like what's going on there? What are you doing there? And were they pretty cool? Yeah, they were all really cool. was the operators were this guy named John Flynn the... John Flynn? Yeah and then... Probably John Flynn the third. Third, yeah. And then Brian Sullivan, I believe, was on the B camera. then can't remember the rest of the assistants, but I remember the utility was this woman named Yuka Kodono. And Yuka was really cool. And Yuka actually, after the show ended, you know, you're in the wonderful, am I gonna work again? Where do I wanna go? Do I wanna go on set? And Yuka remembered that I wanted to be in camera department and randomly called me and was like, I'm... So I'm like the assistant to Janusz Kaminski and he's directing his first like feature and they need a camera PA. Do you want to come PA? And I didn't even have to say yes. I was like, of course you can. Of course, of course. And so that was actually the first time I ever like ⁓ camera PA. Which was really cool because I was like, first of all, it's Janusz Kaminski. Who yay? And then like the assistants were... What movie was that? I don't even remember the name. I don't know if he directed a movie. Okay, it obviously didn't do huge things. Exactly. So who shot for him? Where was the It was this like young dude. His name was like Keith something. My guess is it was probably some younger DP that Janusz could kind of go... Why don't we do this and why don't that? Which is fine. Everybody wins in that situation. Yeah, and that's because I remember hearing them say that it's like, it's got to be difficult to be a DP for Yanush. Yeah, but meantime this young DP is probably learning a lot and gets a good credit. so, know, like I said, everybody wins. But who were the operators? remember? I don't remember. I don't remember at all who the operators were. Get off of this podcast. I remember like the one of the focus was Mark Spath and then the A first, Mark Spath, second was David O'Brien. And David O'Brien was super cool. I would talk to him a lot about just things. He would teach me different things and assisting. But what David O'Brien did for me was David O'Brien got me the PA job on Django Unchained. And how that came about was like Buddha, Allah, whomever in the universe kind of just like placed it in front of me. Well sounds like that's happened a couple of times for what it's worth. Totally yeah. But like how that went, it was crazy because like I had, was like a Facebook group that you could find jobs on and I like, it's like a woman posted. I remember, I'll never forget it was this woman named Julie Heldman. She's like, looking for a female PA for a movie coming up. must be able to lift a lot, blah, blah, blah. So I see that and I email her immediately. Like, hi Jules, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I'm at a study camp practice and I got a call from David O'Brien. I'm like, hey, Obie, what's going on? He's like, hey, so my friend is going to be calling you. Her name's Julie Hilton. I told her about you. She needs a PA for this movie that's coming up. I won't tell you what it is, but just know she's going to call you. I gave you a really great recommendation. And if you want it, the job is probably going to be yours. And I was like, thanks so much, Obie. So she literally calls me maybe like five minutes after that. And she's like, hi, you you want to set up an interview? And I remember I was like, Julie Hilton, Julie Hilton. So I go back to my emails and that was the same woman I had just emailed. And she had actually responded to me telling me to come interview also. So we set it up and it's literally here at Woody. Padme's one the hills, in one of the rooms. And I come and I hang out and she interviews me with the loader, who is this wonderful man named Gary Bevins, who is now a focus puller now. And we sit there, we interview, I can't even tell you what the interview was because I was just on cloud nine because I figured out, I found out it was Quentin Tarantino's movie. And I was like a huge Tarantino fan, like Tarantino was the reason I went to film school. Like I saw Killabill and my mind was blown. That's cool. And I was like, what is happening in my world right now. like, how am I manifesting this? And so she goes, I never forget. She's like, well, Gary, what do you think? I like her. What do you think? Gary's like, yeah, mean, that's cool. She's like, all right, cool, you got the job. And I was like, excuse me? Wow. I have the mic right now. She's like, yeah, yeah, if you want to stay, you can stay and like continue, help us prep, you know, we'll teach you stuff. And I stayed and I labeled cases. And it was the, like, I was literally like, in awe, I thought I had died and gone to heaven. I did not know how I had made this happen, but I was just like, you know what? Just roll with it. And so Django was probably one of the best experiences of my life. This is all amazing. But for anybody who's listening who might not know, can you explain to them what the job of a camera PA is? So a camera PA is the lowest position in the camera department per se. And their job is really like I call them like I almost call them almost like the secretaries issue of the camera department because their jobs are really important, but I don't think it gets enough like respect because like When you're a P when you're a camera PAs Specifically that is the time that you get to learn so much about every single position if you're with the right people if you're with the right people exactly But mostly what you do is like you're bringing coffees in the morning to the director, to the DP, sometimes to the director, yes, to the camera department. You're running batteries for them. ⁓ You could be cleaning the trucks sometimes for them, cleaning cases, just like any ancillary tasks that you can do because technically with the union rules, you're not allowed to touch camera gear and do lens changes and such. And so... on Django, what was really great was that they would teach me everything. And they would let me touch stuff that I wasn't supposed to be touching. And I will say that because honestly, I that's actually on every and every set of things. So it's important because that is how I learned. Absolutely. And just to clarify for anybody who's not listening, the reason is, is because a camera PA is not a union position. Yeah. And their concern is that someone might hire a very intelligent well, ⁓ I was gonna say educated, someone with lot of experience who's a camera PA, which they don't have to pay union rates to, and go, well, you have this person, you don't need a second AC. So there's a reason for it, but I think, truthfully, most sets that I'm on, if people are smart, the ACs will judge the camera PA, and if they aren't gonna be dropping lenses, and they're like, hey, help me out with this. Right, right, right. And that was the thing, like, with, Jules and with Gregor was like, they saw. Oh, Gregor was the first, yes, of course he was, yeah. Gregor Taverner was the focus puller. Couldn't be learning from someone better. Oh, I know, right? Just like, One of the giants in the industry. Actually, now an operator. Yes, now an operator. And actually, I have him. He's on a list of people that I want to talk to. Oh my gosh, that'd be an amazing episode with Gregor. But. Let me ask you a question. it sounds like, it sounds like from the last one and this one, that you were successful as a camera PA. Yes. What do you think is about you that makes you successful that for someone who's getting into this who's gonna be a camera PA, what are the dos and don'ts of being a camera PA? Okay. One of the things I remember being told was that they could see that this meant a lot to me and that I was very like my passion was I had a lot of passion to learn and I was eager to learn and I was always paying attention. And one thing on Quentin Tarantino said, it's like you cannot have your phone on you. You get it taken by security at the beginning of the day and that's it. You have to interact with people. And what I loved about that was that I was forced to focus. And so I was like literally everything they did, not even just the camera department, grip, electrician. everyone. I was there looking. I was always trying to figure out what they were doing. And I would ask questions once I knew it was appropriate. And that's one thing that I feel like a lot of people don't understand. Like, you have to figure out when it's appropriate to ask questions. You can't just blurt it out in the moment, you know, when the DP is talking to the director. Remember it. Write it down if you have to. And when you get a moment, he gets he or she gets a moment. Pull him aside and say, hey, when you were doing this, this, and this, I saw that you did this. Why? And I feel like a lot of the reasons why I was successful and why I learned so much is because I understood my place. I was never where I wasn't supposed to be, and I was always where I was for the amount of time I was supposed to be there. And so they never felt like I was just hovering or whatever. They always felt like I was always eager. to learn something from them. And so they were very open with their knowledge with me, like incredibly open with it. And that was, that's honestly where I think I learned the most about like utility-ing, loading, and seconding who were in my camera P.A. Because after Django ended, I ended up being Bob Richardson's camera P.A. for like a year and a half on this whole run of commercials that he did. And that says something, is Bob Richardson is not an easy person to always work for. And that's why I got job. Because one of the assistants I ended up after Django ended, his then wife was going to AFI and We should say Bob Richardson is Tarantino's cinematographer, among other people's, but a huge and very talented cinematographer. Very. And an idiosyncratic person, perhaps? Yes. He literally reminds me of my dad, which is why we got along so well. Well, you go. Okay. Sorry, I got you off, but I just realized some people might not know who we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. So why do you think you got the job? I literally told me, they're like, hey, so you seem to know Bob's gear, first of all, because I learned it on Django. His own personal equipment. He's like, you seem to know Bob's gear and you also know how to talk to him and keep him happy. Would you like to do this commercial with us? And I said, absolutely. And after the first, I remember it was a CarMax commercial. After the first commercial, I was like on it. was like, okay, I to make sure I get in there and get his bag in the morning. I got to make sure he has his coffee in the morning. Not too much milk. And I literally used to write notes down for Bob. I like, this is what Bob likes in the morning. Step one, step two, step three, step four. And before I go to work, I would look at my notes and I'd make sure I hid everything. And I'd fade away in the background and he wears comms. So I'd wear one. Didn't have to. No one really told me I had to, but I would wear it. But I would hear what he would say to the assistants. And I'd go and I'd look and I'd be like, okay, that's an ND. That's where they're putting that in the- So you were eavesdropping. ⁓ all the time. That's probably like the best thing on a set, always be eavesdropping. It's funny because ⁓ one of the things that I will do with camera PAs, and I mention to people if they can, is when we're setting up a crane shot, if they don't have anything to do, I always go, look, there's two extra headsets, go put them on and just listen. Because crane shots are really hard to figure out if you're watching and not hearing what people are saying. But once you hear what they're saying and you're seeing, you're like, Oh, so they're doing that and they're doing this. And there's so many of them who have said to me like that was invaluable, but it's the same thing you did on your own. Oh, yeah. Which was just to listen to that. That's fantastic. And then I'm guessing part of that is also you can probably hear him just as an aside to someone else go, I think I might go to crafty and get a. pack a peanuts and then you bring it. Hey, you want to pack a peanut? Exactly. Keep his favorite snacks nearby. Hey Bob, do you want this? But also, look, I will say this. We could end right now and this would be one of the most valuable podcasts. No, because seriously, because I'll tell you, ⁓ there was a show I was on where we had two camera PAs. one of them did exactly what you're talking about. And the other one was clearly too good for this. I took the other person, I'm not gonna say sexes or anything that will define who these people are, but I took the one who wasn't so into it aside one day. And I said, I wanted to let you know, I can sense that you're frustrated if I say, hey, can you grab me a cup of coffee? And I wanna be very clear about something. I'm not asking you to grab me a cup of coffee because it's beneath me. or because I'm better than you. I'm asking you for a cup of coffee because I'm tired, I can't get away from the camera, I need a cup of coffee, and part of your job is to facilitate that, and that's okay. So there's no judgment here, but I said, the thing that you're not getting is that you're getting me the cup of coffee is as important as me landing the next frame, because it's all part of the same thing, and this is just where you are in the point. And at some point, you will hopefully be where I am and you will hopefully ask someone else for a cup of coffee with no judgment and with no matter. And I said, do you see this other person here? This other person is constantly coming up and going, hey, are you guys okay? Can I get you anything? Can I get you anything? And as a result, this other person is always hearing, you know, we're good, but hey, take a look at this. Look, this is the slide. Because they're in the space. And again, but this other person who was really on top of it, ⁓ knew when to ask something, knew when not to ask something, knew when to write it down and ask later. I said, you do whatever you want, but there's two people here, and if I had to make a call tomorrow, it wouldn't be you. And I said, I say that with love because I understand where you're at because you're like a racehorse who wants to get out of the gate, but you're not ready to get out of the gate. So you need to stay in the gate and you need to learn everything. And it was well taken and I think it made a difference. I get it, it's hard to, and I also think where you are in your career in the time period that you are is different than, I actually never camera-pa'd, so I can't even, it was a different time period, but whatever, but it was different than a long time ago because now, like back then, the only time you could frame something and edit something and whatever was if you were working, because we didn't have cameras, but now everybody's like, well, I know how to frame and I know how to do the, and I know. So I think there's even more of a like, why am I getting coffee? But it sounds to me from what you're telling me, like you understood how valuable that was. And the truth of the matter is, and you said it really well, is the reason that camera crew liked you was because you kept Bob happy. that's exactly what, you know. And so as a result, they're like, hey, we want you to keep Bob happy. We want you to keep us with us. So let's show you all this stuff and you know. ⁓ But it's it's. I interviewed Tommy Shalami who's West Wing and this and that and one of his things that he said which is so true is like if you're a PA be the best PA, if you're a second AC be the best second AC and you may want to be a director but I don't want to hear about you wanting to be a director. When we have beers tomorrow night you can tell me you want to be a director. Exactly. You're a PA now. and I tell that to people that I run into now like who are PA'ing, are utility, who are seconding and it's like look I don't care. I don't care. Don't care right now. Right now. you're my second. So I want you to do everything that a second's supposed to do because when you don't, I notice it. And I've also been a second. So you can't really get anything past me. And I think that's what a lot of people that I'm running into, like lot of younger people are not understanding. it's like, look, you will move up. But if I see that as a PA, you're killing it, you don't want to do it, sure, but you are killing it. I'll take a chance on you in a second on something I'm shooting off on the side. I'll take a chance on you because I know whatever job I give you, you're gonna give it 100%. That's amazing. That's fantastic advice. it's exactly right because so much of it is not, see you as this, it's more I see how you're doing your job and what you're putting into it. Exactly. I will never forget I was on Brooklyn Nine-Nine and I was a utility and it was my first year being the utility. And I had been working as a second for like a few years, maybe like two years, like, you know, non-union world coming up. And I got the job literally by opening my mouth like randomly one day and another job, right? Something that sounds like you've never done it. Right. And so I had to clean this tent. We had a ultra-balanced tent that they got specifically made for Video Village. And I had been dreading cleaning this tent. I was like, man, why do I have to clean this tent? Fine. And so I was like... I'm gonna do it. So I got my speaker, brought it outside, I set everything up inside I knew, cause I always check my side, I always knew where everything was, I was like, alright, they're about to be on this scene for probably like 30 minutes. They won't ever need to move anything, they're gonna shoot in this direction, I got time. Set them up, everyone was fed, everyone had everything they needed, and I said, hey guys, I'm go outside and clean this tent. Unbeknownst to me, the A-Camera focus puller came outside. Now I'm there, I got my cleaning supplies, I got my music, and I'm literally like bopping around. like, mm, You're in like the parking lot basically? ⁓ yeah, right by the camera truck. And granted, I did not want to do this at all. I tried not to do this. And I was like, nope, I gotta do it. Let's just do it. Clean in. And all of a sudden I hear on the walkie, guys, I just want to let you guys know that Rochelle is outside right now listening to music, dancing, and cleaning that tent. She's a better person than I am because I would not be happy to clean the tent right now. And I didn't say anything. I just said, thank you. And I didn't say anything other than that. like, she didn't, they didn't need to know that I it makes an impression. Yeah, it's like, like my other, my old focus puller used to say this thing where he's like, you can either do it my way or you can do it my way ⁓ irritated or mad. And was like, at that time, was like, yeah, I I knew it had to be done. I wasn't going to put a stink up about it. It's my job. Like, I might as well make it fun. And I feel like you have to like, honestly, in anything you do, you need to kind of have that type of attitude. It's like, yeah, I don't necessarily want to do this, but it has to get done for this job. So why am I going to be mad about this right now? Like, there's so many other things to be upset about. Just do it, get it over with, and then you'll be done. But like, yeah, I like to this day, like I actually was, I was talking to Bob the other day, because I shot a short and I was like, hey Bob, can you just critique this for me? Bob Bob Richardson, yeah, I emailed him and I was like, can you just critique this for me? And Bob sends me back a freaking email with everything in it, with suggestions, asking me questions. And I was just like, I was like, you don't understand how much this means to me, but thank you so much for doing this. And he's like, it's my pleasure. Well, obviously he respects you. Yeah, and it's like I like... That's invaluable. mean, that's unbelievable. It's amazing. It's amazing. It's like I tell my friend I was like, I don't know how this happened, but I'm going to lean into it. But you do know how that I do, but you know, when you're living didn't expect it to happen. Yeah, I didn't expect it. And I think that's part of it, though. You didn't clean the tent well because you wanted people to be impressed with you. You clean the tent well because you want to do your job. Right. And people are impressed with you because you do your job. And it's that simple. Yeah. It's again, like I was saying before, just be the best PA, be the best second AC, be the best first AC. And don't think about I'm doing this because I want to ask. Think about I'm doing this because I want to be proud of my job and do it. And I think there's a lot of that that doesn't happen anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. And you know, I was just talking to, ⁓ who is it? I was just talking to Brian Pitts about when he moved up. from camera assisting to operating. ⁓ And he basically was just like, just wasn't into it anymore. And we didn't go into it too much, but I know what he's talking about. It's sort of like, I'm not excited about this and therefore I'm not doing, I'm not working at the level that I want to be working at. So therefore I gotta find something else. I gotta find the next challenge. ⁓ And so, and I think that's actually, it's an important point of like people understanding when it's time to move on. Like, you know, when you're getting sort of like jaded and you're not excited anymore and whatever. I agree with that whole lot. Yeah, so that's fantastic. So you became Richardson's PA basically. Or the PA with their group. for a year and a half-ish. And I'll never forget, he says to me one day, hey, see all these assistants I'm getting in? I was like, yeah. He's like, get to know them. Get their contact info, because they're the ones that are going to be hiring you. I was like, OK, Bob. And I did exactly what he said. it ended up being some of those assistants who ended up taking me out. ⁓ Rochelle, like the wonderful Bob Hall, who is now retired, who is like the sweetest man ever. And to see him and Bob Richardson work together, they're so opposite. It's hilarious. But like Bob trusted him too. And he was like, OK, I can't mess with this dude. He's not frazzled by anything. And it was Bob Hall who like took me on Westworld as a loader. Like he I remember, like I thought I flashed a mag and I go up to him and I'm like, I'm so sorry, I think I messed up. He's like, what happened? was like, I think I flashed a mag. And I explained to him what happened. He was like, you're fine. And he goes and he turns and he puts his hand on my shoulder. He's like, slow down. It's okay. And from then on, every time I was in that tent, that dark room, it was like, please don't speak to me right now. Thank you. And I just had that moment. It was just him telling me or giving me the okay to slow down. So smart. It was just like it for me. And just anybody listening who doesn't know, flashing a mag is when you're loading the film. The magazine is closed obviously, so no light can get in. But when you're changing it, if you happen to turn the light on and you think it was completely closed but it wasn't or something like that, it is something that happens very rarely, but it does happen. And as a loader, it's... So frightening because if they have a thousand foot mag with a stunt that they could only do once and you accidentally do that. And the thing about it is, I I loaded for a teeny tiny moment, so I remember it. ⁓ It doesn't happen because you don't know what you're doing. It happens because generally you're moving too fast. You know, didn't triple check before you turn the light on or whatever it is. You're loading either in a bag or you're loading in a dark bag or you're loading in the dark room so you can't see anything. So ⁓ yeah, that's great advice because it is, most of the stuff that we do happens because we're going too fast. And what I find time and time again is if you slow down, you actually end up going faster because you're not tripping over it and you're not missing steps and going back and whatever. It takes someone with confidence to learn that and accept it. much so. Great piece of advice. you're loading on Westworld for Bob Hall. Yeah, I would day play. So he called me to day play on second unit on Westworld. they had done the Entourage movie. And so I did like they did a commercial for it. And I was a loader on that. And I was just like hop back and forth for people loading. But you're working with big people. Yes. you're a small fish in very, big ponds there. Very big ponds, yeah. And then I ended up like, I don't even know how got in the job, but there was this like new addition, the band or the boy band, there was a movie that was made for BET and it was like a three-part series directed by Chris Robinson and Crash and Karsten Gopnath, who goes by Crash. Really, really great dude. They came up in the music video world together and so... We're shooting that and we had a day player come on. was a loader on there. And her name was Lauren Gad and we're still friends to this day. it was like a walkie conversation. They were talking about Brooklyn Nine-Nine. I come on walkie and I was like, oh my God, you work on Brooklyn Nine-Nine? I love that show. Oh my God. And literally like two hours or so later, she calls me on walkie. She's like, can you come to the set? I'm like, And she's like, hey, so just want to know, like what are you? doing like ⁓ Because before I'd just been like day playing on stuff like between like Mad Men and like other shows like can't remember the names of right now like doing like low-budget music videos I was like really into that world too. Mad Men you were with Don Devine. Yeah. Yes, I used to day play on that. That's where I learned how to run cable. ⁓ really? Okay. There you go. That's fantastic. Lisa Guerrero. Lisa Guerrero. Great people. You're from great people. ⁓ my god, yes. She's like magnificent. I love her. And just for anybody who doesn't know, and I never completely understand, a utility does what? So a utility's job is they basically like, it's like a loader except... Like on some shows you will do paperwork, on some shows the DIT will do the paperwork, but mostly you're cabling stuff. Mostly you're cabling. Yeah, and Brooklyn and I was a three camera show that was all cables. Gotcha. And with two different villages. I like your show. yeah. So I would like have to... cabling. Yeah, full on cabling. And it was like, it was tough. Like if you were not good at wrapping cable, it would be a difficult job for you. like, and like I'm kind of anal retentive too. So like all my cables were like had to be straight. Like there were nothing that like... There were no diagonals on my set. was always like straight angles, which worked out really great. ⁓ But like, yeah, I had two villages and then sometimes a director's village on a stand that also had to be cabled. So I would like, I would be in there for rehearsals with the operators and the operators were cool. I would stand right next to them. And I would always know which way the camera was pointing. And so, like, on the stage, they literally had been going for so long that they had things set up. Like, they had fiber on one side of the stage that ran up in the perms up top. cable. Fiber optic cable. And so I would know, okay, they're over here. I'm going to have to drop the fiber optics. So I dropped the cables before the rehearsal was even done and have them waiting for me. And then, like, and all the villages always had the same spot. And I just, learned it really quickly. I would take notes my first season. so I always knew where to go. But what I did was because being a utility, wasn't like, I was already kind of past that point in my brain. So what I would do was I would make sure that all my utility tasks were done, village picture was up, like everybody, was because it was like the village on Brooklyn I know is very different. They had it custom built and they had like different things that I have to pull out, single channels like. the DP and the script supervisor had these little butt boards that they would sit on in their chairs. So I would just make sure, like, single channel drawer pulled out halfway so that they could walk by but not hit themselves, make sure all the monitors were up, they're properly tilted down, all butt boards were down. Andy Samberg liked to sit always next to the script supervisor, make sure there's room for Andy's chair to be there. And I just make sure everything that they needed was good because, you know, they're doing everything else. This is the one thing that I can do to help them to just sit, do what you need to do, bring you a drink. You okay? But again, all those things that's an important, it's a piece of the bigger puzzle that if it's missing, the puzzle's not gonna be complete. Exactly. there's no question about it. Exactly. But you have the right attitude about it, which is this is important, this is what my job is, I'm gonna do it well. Yeah, yeah. And they were also really cool on that show too. they would let me come sit in like one of the producers. He was really friendly and be like, Rachelle, come on in. And I get to like sit in video village tent with them. And then like Andy and I got really cool. And so I'd be able to like sit there and just like chill next to Andy and like watch stuff. then what, but what I would really do is I would research when I was on that show. So I'd get all my tasks done and I had set up. the costumes, the hair makeup village so that I could have a little desk back there with my iPad. And so I would take notes and I would research whatever I didn't know. So they would try to find me like, Rachel, picture you in down. I'd be like, OK, copy. So I wouldn't ever be far away from where they would need me, but I could do my own stuff. Like, I had little books I would read sometimes. Had like little office lamp set up. But like, the point was, because my job was done, they never questioned. where I was, what I was doing, because whenever I needed to be there, I was already there. Like, I would already know what the problem is. I would know how to fix it. And because they trusted me and knew that I knew what I was doing, and if I didn't, I would ask questions. They would just give me time. They'd be like, Rachele, what's wrong? I'd be like, ⁓ I need like five minutes to fix this transmitter. They're like, okay, cool. And they wouldn't ask any questions. They just give me the time. And so, like, that's the show that I started to like really kind of like like create a system. That was the show that I started to understand like, ⁓ okay, in each one of these jobs, you have to have a system for your job. So I would have, again, lists, that's my thing. I write stuff down all the time, because that's how I remember it. So utility had my list of things that must be done. Step one, two, three, four, five. Get that done, I'm good. And then the next season, I got bumped up to A camera second. And so with that, same thing. I need to do this. Phil likes his monitor here. Phil likes his grips here. I need to get this for his grips and make sure that they're good. know, Jamie likes this. Jamie likes her monitor here. She likes it. the A's and the operator? So the A, the operators was Phil Mastrella on A. There was Rick Page on B camera and then John Purdy on C camera. And then the assistants was Jamie Stevens and then myself. And then there was ⁓ Bill Gerardo on B camera and Will Schmidt on a B second. And then the C camera didn't have a second, but they had a focus puller named Dustin Miller. And then by my fifth season, the woman who hired me, Lauren Gad, was operating on C camera. That's great. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. And so that was my first, that was again, my first second AC job, an established TV show for a season. And so was super nervous about it, but again, my list saved me. And I took a lot of photos. I always made sure I knew what the camera build was gonna be. I was always prepared with everything I needed, had everything on my stand, my filters. And I was just very just tuned into whatever, wherever I needed to be and how the show ran. Because every show has its own atmosphere, I like to call it. the way they want to do it and once I learned it, it was a lot easier for me to kind of like inject little things that I learned different places but still keep the entirety of their own atmosphere together, you know what I mean? So that was a really, really great learning experience for me and just like wonderful crew, like the crew had been together for like four years by that time. and they were so welcoming. That's great. And like, yeah, it was a really, really good experience. I'll never forget Brooklyn Nine-Nine. ⁓ it's fantastic. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. So back up a little bit, because at one point you said, like maybe before you did Django or before you did whatever this thing was, that you were practicing steady cam. So, so. This whole time. So, so, okay. So, so tell me about that. When did that, how did you get into that and what? Because so, so you're now, you're now a Steadicam operator, like you're an operator in the union, you're a Steadicam operator, but you've been, you've been, you've been sort of wanting to be in practicing for how many years? ⁓ Since I left college, 2009. Wow. So, okay, how I got into Steadicam is very odd also. All right. So SCAD has this campus in Lacoste, France. Oh wow. And so I did a summer there and we, they take you on a trip every summer, they take you on a week long trip to Paris. Okay. And our RD at the time was like walking around Paris and found a film set that we're shooting. It was a Romanian film that we're shooting in Paris. And so he asked him, he's like, hey I have some film students, do you mind if they come by? So he offered it to us. No one wanted to go. What? Except for me. Why? Don't know. Weird. So I'm like, and granted I speak like little itty bitty French, right? And they're shooting an overnight. So I leave the hotel with a vague description of where they're gonna be. And I just like, I'm like, all right, here we go. And I find them in a train station and the woman who is a PA who's on the lockup, in my little bit of French, I tell her who I am and what I need to be. And she's like, okay. And she brings me over to the main set and They had known I was coming and they assigned me to this guy who was also like a PA, this dude named Matthew. And Matthew kind of like was in charge of me the entire night. And I'm sitting there and I'm just like, okay, I'm in France. I'm on a film set. This is amazing. A Romanian movie. A Romanian movie. And I look and it's like they're coming out of a ballet studio and I look across the street. And I see this guy and he's wearing the camera on his body and I'm looking at the monitor, I'm looking at the camera, I'm like, huh? And I asked him, I was like, what is that? He's like, oh, that's a Steadicam. I was like, I think we have a class in that instead. You'd never seen a Steadicam I had never really, like I had heard about it, like in school, but you had to be an upperclassman to get into the class. so I think I was like a sophomore then, it was going into my junior year. And I'm like, wow. And he's like doing a poll, and then he lets her go by and then he pushes her up the stairs. And I was like, that is the coolest shit I've ever remember who the operator was? I do not. I don't. And I just remember thinking that was so cool. That's so cool. I'm sort of jealous hearing that story. Like, I ended up staying on the set until like 6 a.m., walking back to my hotel. And when I got back to SCAD that fall, I signed up for the Steadicam course. So they have a course, I'm assuming, Alan, well, know, Alan Queso wasn't there when you No, was this guy named John Drop. OK. And he had been an operator out here for a short period of time and had done Steadicam. And he actually taught us out of the very first Steadicam operator's handbook. So he got it from Tiffin and would show us slides of it. I know exactly. I'll tell you a story about that. was doing, I don't know if I've ever told this story in here before. I was doing an infomercial for the Chipper Vac, which was like a lawnmower, vacuum cleaner, something or whatever. It was from my friend Adam Kane, was the DP. And I had, I don't remember, I probably had a pro by then or something like that. And I show up on set and he goes, you're not up for like six shots. So I build the camera and I think my friend Charles Papert, who's a Steadicam operator, was at that time, had just gotten a hold of the original Steadicam manual and had photocopied it for me. So he gave it to me. So I'm sitting there and I go, ⁓ wait, I got the, you know, and it's an infomercial. So it's not like I'm sitting on set listening to the dialogue or what. So I go, I got it in my backpack. it's in it's in a it's in a loose leaf binder. And I'm reading it and I'm like, ⁓ well, it's clearly excited. And this woman sitting next to me, we're in like a little area where people have chairs and she goes. What are you reading that's so interesting? And I said, ⁓ this is the Steadicam manual. I've never read it before. And she goes, And she goes, what do you do on the show? And I said, ⁓ I'm the Steadicam operator. they're like, ⁓ there's Garrett and there's another guy. And like 10 minutes later, my buddy Adam, the DP comes over and he goes, dude, what's going on? And I was like, huh? And he goes, producer just came over to me, tells me the Steadicam operator hired, doesn't know how to use the equipment. And I'm like, what? And then I looked at him I'm like, ⁓ wait. So I went over and grabbed her. said, wait, let me explain. And she goes, what? And I said, look, this is like from 20 years ago. I'd never seen it. It literally doesn't even have anything to do with what I'm doing. I'm an established operator. I was just excited because it's a piece of history. And she goes, oh, oh, I was a little concerned that you were, and I was like, no, no, no. But it's so funny because he came, you know, and he's, you know, he's trying to light a set and this and that. But like you say from that, I remember, you know, I'd been an operator for a while and it was just like, oh, this is like the Bible and half of it's wrong. You know? Yeah, that's great. That's amazing. ⁓ my gosh. So they were teaching you how to do Do you remember what you were? Was it like an actual, was it a cinema product study camera? Was it a pro? No, it was an ultra one. Wow. a flyer. Wow. Okay. So it was like the newer, the newer lighter versions of the study cam that they use for video cameras. But they essentially work the same way. The concept is the same. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Of course, you know, I was the only girl in the class. So was like, I need to go in the biggest one. It was the most painful experience of my life. I will never forget that pain. I was like, Oh my god, this is what it's supposed to feel like. And yet you stuck with it apparently. did. I'm a glutton for punishment. Really high pain tolerance. So that was semester course? That was 10 week course, twice a week, two and a half hours. And it's just Steadicam? Just Steadicam. That's amazing. I've never heard of a school having something like that. That's incredible. It was awesome. And we would like... like the first like two or three classes was just theory. He'd like literally have slides of the of study camp handbook and he would show us like, okay, this is the line dance. This is forward, backward. And then I think it was like a third or fourth class. We got to actually put the rig on. And everyone was just like, this is horrible. And so, but I, course, I was like, I'm never getting out of this. So my professor, I remember like we, there's a huge fountain in Savannah called Forsythe and we were gonna do a walk and talk around it and it's pretty large and so I'm like going and I'm just like, I'm going and I feel it. I'm like, damn it, here it comes, here it comes, here comes, here it comes, here What, the pain? The pain. And I'm like, ⁓ that sweet, sweet, sweet pain. And I just start to just like, just sweating, just profusely sweating. And I come up and I put it in rest position on my shoulder. I'm like, okay, I can go again. And he looks at me in the face and he goes, hey guys, why don't we just pick the study camera off of her for a real quick second. Like super calm with it because he knew I wasn't going to let it go. And they come in and they just pick it up and it was like, I literally just kind of collapsed. ⁓ because it is, it is like now I'm like super comfy and it feels great, but the first like five years or so of me like practicing with it were the most painful years. Yeah, for anybody who has never had a study cam on before, it's one of the most awkward feelings, because it changes your center of gravity, it's wrenching you in all sorts of bizarre ways, and it changes as it goes. It's really kind of not good. But for some reason you do get used to it and you build, I mean I don't know if you get massages after you have long days or whatever, but I remember I would get massages and if I got, you know, if it was on location or whatever and I'd get a massage from someone, you know, I'd never seen before obviously, they'd be like working on my shoulders or whatever and they'd sort of work down the back and then they'd get to my lower back and there'd be like a poke and a pause and a poke and a And then usually there's like, what do do for a living? Because I just, there's weird muscles there that don't exist anywhere else. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a different word. So that was 2000 and... That was 2004, 2000, no, no. That was like 2007, 2008. Okay, so then at some point you must have bought a small rig or something. Yeah, so I bought a small rig after I moved out to LA. I bought a pilot, SD pilot off of eBay. Okay. And I use that for, honestly I still have it. I need to like... do something with It's like a little video cam. Literally. 12 pound max. But again, works exactly the same way as the big ones do. That's the beauty of what Garrett designed is it's never actually changed essentially. Very true. Very true. So you were doing just like music videos on the weekend and stuff and whatever? Student gigs, And did you ever tell people on set that this was something you did? Not really. I just kept it to myself. You didn't go in and go, I know this is Django Unchained, but I got this piloted. I honestly would not tell anyone, even when I was seconding on the more larger stuff, I didn't tell anyone unless they seemed interested in me. It's not like something that I felt, maybe that's just my personality in general, is like, if you don't seem like you're interested in getting to know me, then I won't really tell you much about myself. I know like in my seconding career, I have gotten a lot of help. and just tidbits and stuff from people from study camp operas on set once they figured out. Because you can kind of tell when people are interested and they could tell that I was interested. Because I'd be like around when study was up even more and just like take care of them even a little bit extra because I understand what it felt like. And I'd just be like looking at the rig and like seeing how they would build things and watching how they walked, watching what their post hand was doing. Like I was just very like keyed in on how everyone did everything. So eventually people would find out and like give me like, like the wonderful Colin Anderson. he, such a wonderful human being. My God. Yes. Like he came in with us on Space Jam for like, I think a week and I would like, I don't know how I ended up telling him. And after he found out that I wanted to operate, he would like, go talk to the director and he'd come back and be like, so I did that because, and he would explain why he would do certain things. Doesn't surprise me at all. Right? Doesn't surprise And then one morning, he gave me a 30 minute lesson before work. That's great. Put me in his rig, watched me walk and gave me tips. There's something weird about steady camera operators when they find out other people are interested. And I think it's because we all had people who taught us because it was a very, especially like, you Colin, myself, other people who were sort of of that era. There still weren't a lot of us around. it was like, I mean, it was the kind of thing that it's like 2 a.m. your rig went down, you put a phone call out and someone got up and drove you their rig and no rental just like, because we all wanted to succeed. So it doesn't make, so I think it carries through a little bit. And also, we still want. I shouldn't say only we, you're part of this too. You want everybody who's a Steadicam operator to be good so that Steadicam operators are good. ⁓ So you want to pass it on. basically, so Brooklyn 99, you're an established second AC now. Yeah. Give or take. Yeah, give or take. You've had a crazy amount of experience on big things as a PA learning everything there is to know. Who was the operator? Was Scott Sakamoto on Django Unchained? No, it was actually Colin Hudson in the portions. He also, wonderful gentleman, he's given me rigs. of came up together. Super nice guy. He's like, you want my backup rig? Great upper. Yes, he's like, it only has a TB6. I was like, no problem, So did you buy his Steadicam? No, okay, so how I ended up buying a rig was I had to get a vest because what I found out was that those first five years was that the vest didn't fit me That is a big part that a lot of people don't know. yes. so once I figured that out, I ended up purchasing a vest used from an operator named Mike Nelson who he is like, he's operating now and is like big time whatever. ⁓ And he had a pro vest that he didn't like. Okay. And so I took it to Pro and Pro was still here and I was like, hey Jack, I bought this vest. Help. And so Jack took the vest apart, put it in two pieces, put one piece on my back, one piece on my front and bolted it on my body. And that is how I felt. at all comfortable in anything. Great, and my vest looks like a Charles vest compared to all of you guys's, but it fits so wonderfully now. I think you'd look ridiculous wearing mine and I'd look ridiculous wearing yours, so that's alright. It fits you. Yeah, no, was great because I wanted to take a big Grig workshop. I wanted to take the one in Philly because I knew a lot of those guys because, ⁓ also forgot to mention this, during this time of assisting and all this stuff, I had been volunteering for Tiffin at NAB in Cinegear. Okay. And so I would like go put people in rigs at NAB. Gotcha. So Tiffin who makes the Steadicam now, and you would be like the helper there as people come into the booth going, hey, you want to try this on? Yep. And that helps me in just understanding like how vests are supposed to fit. And I would also use it as networking opportunity because Garrett would always be there. Jerry would always be there. All these other operators would already be Jerry Brown, Jerry Hallway, the big names. Big names like Fruben from Amsterdam. He would be there, and so they would always teach me stuff. so I loved doing it. So I think I did end up doing two or three NABs with Tiffin. And it's like, you're not getting paid anything, but what I did get was rig time. You got paid. You just needed to pay cash. Exactly. Exactly. And so I did those for a few years. I also was volunteering with the SOC to do the camera operator of the year category so I could meet people. And honestly, I've worked with some of those operators. They're like, why do I know you? like, because I was the one calling you for your camera operator of the year subscription. That's great. And so, through all of this, I had been doing all of that too. So I knew, I was like, oh, I need my vest to fit better. So once I got that, Jack bolted it on me. I finally was able to take that workshop. Because I had taken my class in SCAD, and then I took a three-day workshop with the wonderful Peter Abraham. Abraham. who is still like one of my biggest supporters. Bob Crone was the lead instructor and Peter Abraham was one of the second tier, there's like five or six people at the workshops. Peter taught me. Peter's like, I literally talk to him every job I have. Wonderful, wonderful person. Such an amazing human being. And of course the beautiful Dan Nies who has been no longer with us. Dan was just like, you can do this. What do you mean? You can do this. Dan was never, that's what I loved about Dan. Dan was just like, you can absolutely do this. Why not? Like, you're right, Dan. And he would just give me tips. He's the one that hired me. He was doing like a low budget short. He hired me as a second AC for it and paired me up with his old Focus Briller and taught me a plethora of knowledge. Like, I've just been really fortunate to run into all these amazing gentlemen who have just wanted to help me succeed. And so like, So after Peter, like Peter, because when I took the workshop, Peter knew immediately. He's like, you know a little bit more, don't you? I was like, I kind of do. So what he did was, everyone else he taught, like it was basic. But for me, he gave me extra stuff. Because you were already past that point because you had your own rig and whatever. Yep. And so once I got the vest, I took the five day workshop in Chester Springs and again, like I knew all the instructors. And so I was like hanging out with them afterwards, before, blah, blah, blah. And that was when I actually realized and learned how a Steadicam worked. And I tell everyone who's doing it, I'm like, if you haven't taken a workshop, you need to take that one. Because understanding how the rig is supposed to work is one of the most important things you can do. because then you understand what your body is doing to it. Yep. And like, yeah, that was I love that workshop to this day. got to ask Jerry all these questions about the gear. Jerry Holloway. Yeah, Jerry Holloway. Super great. the study cam handbook or whatever it's called, study cam operator's handbook. Wrote that. Garrett was really great at answering questions. Yep. Like. I got to try different types of rigs and I love that they have their whole line there because you can just, you can choose which one really works for you. And so like anyone out there who is thinking about getting into study cam, please, please take a workshop. please, please. It's invaluable. My version of what you were just saying, which that's I'm sure much better is when I teach people, always go, look, the study cam works. You're in the way. So you have to figure out how to get out of the way of the study camp while still making it do what you want it to do. the problem is you. Yeah, I literally say that. was like, I learned how not to fuck it up. Yeah, it's exactly right. It's exactly right. Yeah, it's 100 percent. So when did you make the jump to operating? mean, it sounds like you're doing jobs here and there, but when did you make the union jump to operating? I made the union jump in February of 2021. So wow. Relatively. Or 2022, sorry. Relatively recently. Oh, very recently. And was that, was that, and you went from second ACing to operating. Yeah. Was that, was that a freaky, oh my God, I'm closing the door or? Kind of, but like, like you were saying earlier, I got real bored. Yeah. I got super bored. And I started to like, my mouth started to go and I was like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, Michelle. No. This is You do not get to talk back to people like that. No. And so that's when I figured out, I was like, ⁓ the challenge is gone. There wasn't massive that I was learning on my day to day anymore. And that's when I realized, and I was comfortable as a second, I was super comfortable. Had a focus puller that I was working with. It becomes a problem a little bit. Look, I did ER for three years. And ⁓ I left after three years because the first year, I would have slept on set. The second year, I could not wait to get to set. And the beginning of third year, I was like, I'm getting a little tired. it started to, even though it was amazing, it was on such a high level, but we were doing it so much. I it did 63 episodes as the only camera operator. And by the end of it, I was sort of realizing I'm getting bored. And I can't believe I'm getting bored, but I'm just getting bored because. There's only so much you can do in here, and the truth of the matter is there's always more you can do. But I just saw my attitude sort of going and I realized, you know what, I'm never gonna be this young at this point in my career on something this big, and I wanna leave while they still want me here, as opposed to after they want me gone. it was a really, really hard decision. But I left and I look back and I'm glad I did, because I think I was becoming sort of like, yeah, we could do that, and it's just like, don't wanna I didn't want to be that way, so very much. It's smart to listen and it's hard because you know, all right, I'm gonna finish this job and someone else will call me and I'll work that and then I'll say, you know, it's easy. But I think it may be a life lesson as well as just this business. If you're not challenging yourself, it's like you gotta move forward. So you made the jump to operating and you're basically a B camera operator, steady camera operator, right? And so the A camera operator is I'm assuming generally not a steady camera operator. You're the sole steady cam or sometimes? Sometimes for the ones I've been on, the A camera operator have been steady cam, but I've also known them forever. So it's been great. But so on those, have you just been B and not steady cam? OK, but so you're still learning from them, but you're not doing something. Yeah, which I love because, know, just camera operating in general, minus take steady cam out of it. It's a lot. And when you go from like seconding to operating, you have to like turn your brain a different way to like this new position. So I have not been upset at all about like, ⁓ I want to do more study. Like, yeah, I'm going to. But what I really want to just be is a really good operator. That's great. I just really enjoy a study camp because I'm in Glutton for punishment. Sure, sure, But you know, like, I'm like, OK, if I learn how to frame on a head, dolly, handheld, when I go to study, it'll be an even better frame because I can move through it. So let's talk about operating. You jumped from second ACing to operating. What are some of the biggest hurdles? Confidence. Yeah, okay. Because I was a really confident second. I knew exactly what I needed to do, where I needed to be, what my job was, everything. And now it's like, I'm like questioning myself in ways that I remember doing it when I first started second. So what do you do about that? On set, you're on set, you're questioning yourself. My wonderful mentor, Jeff Haley, has given me this phrase that he's like, practice failure. Because that's honestly one of the most important things is how you get out of once you fail at a shot, it's your attitude after that. Because you can either flounder and ruin the rest of your day, or you can say, hey, guess what? I'm human, I fucked up, it's cool. Now, what did I just do wrong? Okay, alright, I identify that. How can I fix that? Is that fixable? Sure. Let's come up with something. Alright, cool, let's do it. And like, I found out that if I look at it in that way, my mind doesn't have time to like, tell me I'm inadequate, tell me what am I doing here, like you're not supposed to be here, like look at you. You're like the only one here anyways. Like why are you even here? It's like my brain doesn't have time to like. So you basically just don't give yourself the ability to do that by filling it up with something that's actually useful. Exactly. Exactly. That's a good strategy. Look, my version of that is it's not the falling down, it's the getting up. Because everybody falls down. Everybody. Everybody falls down. And one of the things that I have, well I mean knew this, I have, talking to people on this podcast has, has pointed out to me is that I don't think a lot of people recognize this. They look at people with 30-year careers and they go, ⁓ everything they do turns into gold. And it's like, we're hanging on by our nails most of the time trying to figure out impossible things that we actually don't think are going to work. confidence is, look, where you are right now, no question. I go on to shows and I'm like, God, can I do this? Can I pull this off? not only, it's a little different because at my point, it's not can I pull it off? Because I know I can pull it off. It's can I pull it off to where I'm gonna be happy with it and they're gonna be happy with it? So it's just the range changes, but it's still sort of, you're still questioning. mean, one of the things that I ask the operators who've been around forever and I ask almost all of them is, do you ever get nervous? And they're like, every show. Which blows my mind because I'm like, I'm nervous the first day I show up. My hand just like. Yeah. the only difference is that the more you do it and the more years you're in it, you're like, OK, I'm still nervous, but I know that's just ⁓ a human reaction. Yeah. And I'm going to be OK. But there's a little part of me that's wondering if I'm going to be able to do this. So, know, so yeah, that's that's next. And what about what about ⁓ technical skills? What's been the hardest hurdle to overcome? Do you work on wheels? You work on a gear, on a fluid head? Yeah, awesome. Again, awesome mentors who've always told me, hey, you need to learn that. And also, honestly, I feel like I kind of had a leg up because, again, like the people I would work with knew what I wanted to do. like they would do things like, like, how is it? It was like, oh, space jam. Like, both operators are my homies. So what they would do was they're like, you're doing all the VFX shots. So they would walk off, go figure off the rest shots and they'd be like, all right, VFX pass. And I'd be on the wheels on the crane, replicating. And the VFX is for anybody is basically, it's called tiling also. I'm assuming you're talking about tiling. Yeah. Where the VFX people are just standing next to you, go, okay, tilt up, tilt up, go left, go left. But if you're doing that on the wheels, you've got to, first of all, you can screw up. That's the nice point. It's actually just a reference is really what it is. but you wanna make it go, so it's giving you practical, ⁓ you know what, it's funny, I'm gonna take that and do that myself because. Super helpful. Yeah, well and because here's the thing, number one, I don't really wanna do a VFX pass. I wanna go get a cup of coffee. But there is someone who's gonna wanna do a VFX pass who that actually can help, so I'm gonna take that, that's great. But basically, so. You were getting on the wheels anytime you could so that when you get a job with the wheels, you're ready to do it. Exactly. And honestly, everything from like, I remember on Cheaper by the Dozen, Mitch Amundsen, he let me do a shot one day and he gave me a critique afterwards and I loved it. I was like, please tell me everything. You were a second AC at that was a second AC, yeah. And so it's like, I've been lucky throughout my second in career that, first of all, there people who allowed me to hop off of jobs to go take steady cam jobs. Like I would do shorts, I'd do like four day shorts. I did a four day short on Space Jam. Like I did like multiple other things. But what I realized once I got on set as an operator was like all those times like helped me to understand like what I was doing and also as an operator what I need to ask for because that was one thing that when I first started I was really timid. And I was quiet and it was like, no girl, you got to go out there. You got to talk to the onset dresser. You need to go. You need to go walk your set. You need to see what's going to be in your way. Where are they thinking about shooting? Okay, cool. What's behind us? Can you move this, this and this? And so I had to really like step into my own voice as an operator and also realize what my power is because I was still second AC brain where I'm just there to assist. Now I had to realize, ⁓ Okay, they're looking to me for guidance. Shit. Okay, here we go. I can do this. And like just understanding, okay, cool. All right, this is my job. They're going to want to know the answers to these questions. What can I do to get those answers or facilitate them getting those answers if I can't answer it? And so... So, so valuable. I I find that I find that actually, B camera operators, newer B camera operators, specifically who are women. have a tendency to ask as opposed to say. And I say women because I think societally there's something there where it's like, I'm not supposed to, and I've taken a couple people aside and just gone, listen, here's the thing, I know this seems odd and I know you're questioning yourself and I know you're young and all that, but your dolly grip and your camera assistant are sitting there and they just want the information because they're like, they wanna make you look good. So like, don't, hey, can we put the thing on this? I need the camera over here, need a fluid head, I need a 25 millimeter. And that's what they want. And it's hard because you are questioning yourself going, am I making the right decision or whatever. But they're like, look, we don't want people waiting on us. Tell us what to do. Exactly. Exactly. So yeah, it's one of the things that I tell people when I'm mentoring, like be decisive. Yes. And that is also something that I was told too. It's like, if you're wrong, be 100 % wrong. Yeah, 100 % wrong. And then by the way, own it. Oh, you know what? I screwed up. I'm so sorry. This track has to come afoot over here. I apologize. You're angry. I get it. We got to do it. Let's move on. And then later on you go, I bought you a coffee. I'm really sorry. Exactly. It happens. And they understand. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I've been really like this last year. I'm like, OK, be OK with being wrong. And again, like Jeff Haley has been helping me. Like he's also a wonderful, wonderful person. Great operator, great person. person. like we like we have talks like weekly talks about everything. And so that's like one of the things that I've been like really working on. It's like, okay, why should, why do I think this needs to be here? Put it there. Okay, nope. So here's what's happening. I messed up a little bit. So we're going to go over here. The shot actually changed, but I'm getting more comfortable in like being okay with being wrong and just making a decision, even with framing. Like I shot this short and one of the notes Bob gave me was, He's like, commit to your pants. And I was like, oh, Bob, I know. I saw it and I'm exactly, was like, thank you for that. No, I know exactly what you mean. It's because like, I would always question where I would land things. And it's like, no, land. Land the shot. Okay, maybe that wasn't the friend that I wanted. And I can move now. Yep. Yep. Cool. As opposed to landing and then going, I'm gonna keep on moving a little bit for no reason until I get there. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And, and. Yeah, what I was told early on was, and that's what you want to do, you want to land your shots. You want to land them correctly, there's no question about it. But at the end of the day, it's better to land a shot that's off-framed and then like, ⁓ look who's so artsy-fartsy. Why don't you land the frame normally that day, know, as opposed to like, because everybody's going like, ⁓ he didn't quite make it. He's sort of going, and now it's an unusable shot. So it's literally like little things like that. Like, just like. Having the confidence to know what type of support you need also is a thing that I've been You mean asking for help? mean, not help is the wrong word. Or just like, should I be on a bazooka here? ⁓ that type of stuff. should I be like, yeah, should I tell them to break the neck on the dolly or should I just put them on the head? And now I'm like, you know what, break the neck. Yep. Cool. Yeah, I think we'll be around here. Break the neck. And so working with the dolly group. Yes. You know, do you mind me asking how old you are? I am 36. OK, gladly. People who are on a podcast who can't you do not. I would I thought you were in your 20s. OK, you see between your energy and your look. I think you're enjoying. But anyway, you you seem you come off as as a young person. Yeah. And this is an industry sometimes where you get there and the dolly grip will be 10 years older than you or whatever. And a guy and in some cases, like many people on a set, maybe not so psyched about taking taking well there's two there's two things not so psyched about being told what to do by someone who's new because they're gonna know that you because they've IMDb'd you ⁓ we all know that yeah and and going ⁓ god so am I gonna have to move the dolly truck 12 times because this person doesn't know what they're doing which is valid and then and then maybe not so psyched about taking you know taking taking direction from a young person who's a woman which is not valid So how do you deal with that? Okay, so luckily for me, all these older Dolly groups, I'm friends with them already because I've been seconding with them. There you go. And so when they see me, they're like, you moved up? I'm like, yeah, Brad. He's like, ⁓ so excited. And so what I also, like I learned this years ago, it's like, if you're going to hire someone that's good at their jobs, you're hiring them for their expertise. So what I do is like, say you're Brad Rays or whatever, I'll be like, Brad, what do you think? You've been doing this forever. Where do we need to be? This is the shot. I need to do this. I needs to go here. Let me know. And I find that like, if I respect them, and granted this is not gonna work for everyone. they don't like you, they're not gonna like you, even if you show them the utmost respect and I've run into that before. But what I found is I just, I try to utilize the knowledge that's around me because I know what my shortcomings are and I might not know some of them, but I know that I'm lacking in experience, but I also know that I'm trying to learn everything. So that's kind of how I approach every day that I go to set. I'm like, what can I learn today and who's going to teach it to me? Well, I think there's something inherent with what you just said is asking the Dolly group because their expertise is laying track or whatever what they think is not a weakness in you. It's an acknowledgement that they have an expertise that you don't. to your point of let's break the neck, I'll do the same thing, but I'll usually go, let's break the neck because I need to be here, but I think we're going to have to go here. I explain, I tell them, and there's a reason I tell them why, because then they can know why I'm breaking the neck. And if there's something I'm not thinking of, they could go, or I can do this and we can get both of those places, but we could also get up here if that happens. And I'll go, you know what, you're right. ⁓ Whereas if I just say break the neck, they're just gonna do that, but I may have missed something. And the other thing I'll usually do is ⁓ like for cranes. And ⁓ I'll usually, I'll look at the crane shot and I'll think, okay, I know where I want the base to be, because cranes are all about where the base is, right? Especially telescoping cranes. But then I'll usually come to the dolly group and go, okay, so the camera needs to be here and it needs to go here and we need to do this and we need to do that. And I just grab the shot. Where do you think the base should be? I'm not testing them. What I'm doing is I'm saying, I don't want to put anything in your mind. Where do you think the base should be? And nine times out of 10 at this point in my career, we're in the same level. But when we're not, I'll go, really? Because I thought it was going to be over there. Why do you think it's better over here? And then either they'll tell me something that I'll go, no, no, no, I'd like it better over there. Or they'll go, well, yeah, but you're not looking at those power lines back there that I'm going to have to be close to. So it's, oh, you're right. OK, so then let's put it, you know. So again, it, it, it a. I am using, they have an expertise that I don't have, but I'm sort of going, I'm using it to check myself to see whether I'm right or I'm wrong. But again, it's not a failing, it's a collaborative effort. Yeah, and like, I was like the movie Resball that I was on, like I had never met my Dolly group before, and they were all local in New Mexico. Who was your Dolly group? His name is Alex Cintron. And he's like this six foot four Puerto Rican dude, like, looks like Samoan in Puerto Rican. And I remember when they're, I was like, where's my dog? They're like, oh no, you'll notice him when you see him. You'll know him. And he came up to me and we literally hit it off within like five seconds of working. tall are you? I'm five five. Yeah, so I was gonna say, it's like you made a good team. It was like, honestly, like the DP, her name is Kara Kelly. Afterward, she was like, you guys worked really good together. At one point, the main actress comes up to us, she's like, how long you guys been working together? Like 10 years? And we look at each other, we're like, give or take three weeks. But it was because like, realized just like, cause even one day I was like, hey, just so you know, like I don't believe that the film industry is a solo industry. I believe that the film industry is a collaborative industry. So if you come up with an idea for an amazing shot, Tell me, I don't care if it's for me, what we're here to serve is Sydney. So whatever, if you see me doing something and you think, hey, that'll be a better shot, move me over there and tell me that. And so once we had that conversation, our synergy was so incredible. great. But that's a credit to you because you empowered him with that ability to do, and that's what I do with all the people I work with. Unfortunately, sometimes you have to You have to judge it little, because there's some people who can't step up to that, and some people who don't have the right instincts. Which, that's a tough situation, because it's hard to walk that back afterwards. and I ran into that on one of the very, very first shows that I had. And he was just, he was a really nice gentleman, but he was not a Dolly Grip. And it made my life a lot more difficult, because I was like, don't, ⁓ shit, I gotta figure out where to put this track right now. okay, okay, let me see what the move is and I would tell him and like, okay, I think that's right. And like, I remember like one time he put the chassis in the wrong side on the track and I was like, I need to be over in the hair. I'm so sorry, you're have to take this off. And it was like a set with glass walls, so we had to be really careful. He ended up having to take it back off and I just was like, okay, I now understand. I like, I literally have that moment where I was like. This is why the Mike walls of the world are amazing because I've got to these decisions myself is not relying Yeah, yeah, those are tough. Those are tough. Yeah to learn but again, it was another learning experience You know, have taken a lot out of like now but the dolly grip is like so important. Yeah incredibly important like I remember one day I'm doing a handheld shot in the basketball court And I'd been sitting there so long that my leg fell asleep and I had a charley horse and he pulls the camera off my shoulder and was like, Alex, I can't move, can't move, I can't move, I can't move. Alex, can't move, and he literally picks me up by my urgaric and takes me off this thing and puts me on the side. And like the publicity chick walks up to her and says, she was like, I don't know if you understand how hilarious that was to see. I was like, we're a team, we're a team dude. But like, yeah, it was, that was probably one of the best because it was such a long show. is my first long feature with someone. I was like, OK, this is the type of relationship that I want to try to foster. like, because it was so collaborative, like it was wonderful. Like he would like we had basketball moves and I'm like he would call out shots for me because I was like on a long zoom and we're like running a play. He's like, all right, key. I'm like, got it. He's like, all right, shot. Because like, you know, you're on a tighter lens and like, ⁓ Because he can see the whole world that's going on and you've just got a little piece of it. Exactly. And I didn't have to tell him to do that. That's fantastic. He just knew to do it. No, that's great. That's great. Well, and he wanted you to succeed, obviously. Yeah. And a lot of that actually ends up coming down to personality. He felt your personality. Absolutely. Realized you were collaborating. Absolutely. Let me ask you this. As a B-camera operator, so rehearsals, what are you doing? I'm in there. I try to get in on private rehearsals. I am literally. I try to be in there for every single rehearsal. And what do you do during the rehearsal? During the rehearsal, I'm looking at first of all where the DP is looking. Like, okay, you're looking at where you're going to put your lights. Cool, tight, tight, tight, tight, tight, tight, tight. And then I see where they want their shots are going to be. I'm like, all right, where's A camera going to be? Okay, so A camera is going to be there. All right, so that's that side of the line. Okay, let me see what I can get over here. And then also just like looking at what's going to be obstacles so that I can tell a set dressing. All right. I think it looks like we're going to be here. We're to be on this side. Can you just be prepare yourself, prepare yourself to move all of these things right here. And then also if you see that mirror, I think it might be a problem maybe for a camera. I think I might be might not have a problem, but just so you know, that might be a thing. So it's just. And for me as a newer operator, rehearsals are super important for me because I listen, again, eavesdropping to everything that's happening because every piece of information I can get helps me to be able to get my camera where it needs to be sooner so that I can practice my moves. that's what I do whenever I'm not, I literally I'm always rehearsing my move because I'm newer, I don't have 10,000 hours behind this thing. So I really have to make sure that I know where I'm going. And also sometimes, you know, because I'm newer, I'll back myself into a corner where I'm like, oh no, I need to pan left. And I just put myself right next to Aiken. My arms kind of hit the wall or whatever. Exactly, or something like that. So I really like utilize rehearsals like a lot. And I'm always on set. I'm always in the room. I'm always either. DIT or on set, like if it's a steady cam move, like I just did Resma with Justin and Justin Brown. Justin and I have known each other for like over 10 years now and this was our first time like operating together. So like steady cam moves, I'd be in the tent and he'd be like, yo, what'd you think about my, you like that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, different than I've never done before. so like, especially like right now for me, I'm learning so much that I just, I yearn to be close to everything. Like even lights, I'll be like, okay, that's why is that there? Like, okay, I think that's going to be out of my frame. But, and like also a part of my thing is I don't like to waste people's time. And when I say that, I mean, I don't like to. have people move things that don't need to be moved and like cost. And they don't like to do that either. Exactly, cost a deep-y time by not telling them about light. So I try to stay on top of that. Like I don't ever want to be telling someone about a light right before we roll. So I try to just like, I had an awesome operator who told me, get up off the dolly and walk your set. So I do that all the time. people what that means. walking your set means you literally go and you walk around the set. and just look for obstacles, look for problems that could impede your shot. there might be something in the foreground or there might be, I don't know, a light somewhere that you didn't necessarily realize that was there. But just any and everything that you can, that could impede the shot or honestly impede the actor too, because you have to remember that what you're doing is in service of the actor also. as the director because if they weren't there you wouldn't have anything to frame up on. I'm like, you know, I try to be very, and that's honestly one of things I really like about this job is working with actors. So tell me about that. It's invigorating actually, especially on Steadycam 2. I love, I love dancing with actors. Handheld too, like, it's just. If they can get me to feel the emotion that they're trying to get, I know we got it. Nice. And so that's one of my favorite parts. Like I love working out at Steady Cam Shots where I'm like, hey, so I got to do a change over a little bit. So if you can just milk that look, it'll give me time to turn my body around and we can start the walk. you know, when you're coming up on me, like remember one of your steps to a mine. So I know you want to accelerate here. I'm going to remember that and I'm going to take off. But you got to remember you got to slow down for a little bit of time so I can get around here and there there. And you know some of the greatest actors they totally get it because they understand it's like and some don't. And I've run into that before. So what do you do when that happens? What do do when you're working with two questions. What do do when you're working with the actor who doesn't want to work with you. And how do you. when you meet actors for the first time, how do you determine this is someone I can, we're gonna be working together, this is someone I have to work around, this is someone I probably shouldn't talk to? ⁓ Okay, so first of all, how do I deal with a more difficult actor? First of all, don't believe, I don't believe in having someone affect the way that I do my job, right? So if my job is an operator, and I have to talk to you, I'm going to come up to you, I'm gonna introduce myself to you, I'm gonna ask you for what I need. If you tell me no, I will say, okay, no problem. I will figure it out, thank you so much. And I will go back to my camera and I will let the DP know and the director just so you know, I asked, wasn't, it's not gonna happen, so we'll just pivot. We'll figure this out, we'll add another setup, it'll be fine. And then as far as like, how do I know? I kind of figured it out a little bit as a second, like marking actors. How to figure out who to approach and who not to approach. Yeah, yeah, because like, great example, Kristen Bell, love her. She used to see, she used to like tell me, don't worry about that, my girl, I'm gonna blast through that one, just give me one back there, don't worry about the desk, because I can feel the stapler on my butt, and I'm gonna put my butt on the stapler. And so I understood like, you can tell like when you meet someone, like first of all, if they look you in their eye, that's like a big thing for me. like, when I meet someone, I'll always look you in your face. If you do not, I'm like, okay, all right, copy that. You know, like eye contact, understood. And then I'll kind of like introduce myself, hi, I'm VK operator, blah, blah, blah. Let me know if there's anything you need. You know, how do you like to be addressed? Like, do you like to be addressed as your character's name? or do you like to be addressed with your name? It's funny, I do the exact same thing. But it's very calculated because it's an honest question that shows I care about them, but it also tells me a lot how they respond. Exactly, exactly. And I think I learned that from someone telling me about Denzel. It's like, don't ever address him as his name. a lot of rules about Denzel. There is, and I was like, I'm just going to be a loader and I'll be right here. I'll be right here. It's cool. But I try to just like... Just like, yeah, I'll ask them that. And just, you know, just be like, you know, I'm here if you ever need anything. You know, if you feel like just I'll be happy to just hold the role. I can make up something if you ever need anything. Just let me know. And for the most part, I have been lucky, but I have also run into more challenging people to deal with. But like, I don't know. It's. It's a fun part of the job, like getting to deal with their different personalities ⁓ for sure. ⁓ I don't think I have enough experience. Sarah gets to really say how I would work. so far I've been lucky and I'm gonna just knock on wood that it stays that way. But yeah, that's how I try to just approach them as human beings and just show them that I respect you as a human. I will always respect you as a human being no matter how you treat me, it's cool. But just know if you treat me badly then I won't. talk to you about what I need to talk to you and that'll be it. That's a good way to go. That's it. yeah. Well, Rochelle, this has really been fantastic. I feel like after listening to you that clearly I'm going to be your B camera operator someday. I'm trying to be your B camera operator first. But thank you so much. There's so much great information here. Thank you for having And as I suspected, ⁓ think you just, because you're in the process of this, I think you have a more immediate and probably ⁓ accurate view of some of the things that I keep talking to people about because you're in the midst of it and you also, ⁓ you speak about it very well, so that was great. ⁓ I'll leave you with my final question that I leave everybody, which is ⁓ slightly different for you. But what is your advice to people in your situation who are just. beginning this journey, ⁓ people trying to start the journey, film students who want to be operators. What is your advice for success? My advice for success would be Whatever job that you were currently occupying, do it at the best of your abilities. Like, don't worry about operating right now. Don't worry about, just try to be the best at what you are now. Because when you do move up to that ultimate job that you want, you'll understand just how important it was to be good at those jobs. Because... I am understanding that right now every single day. I am literally like, there's some days that I have that I'm like, you remember that when you were a second, right? Remember when that operator did that? So you honestly never know when a piece of knowledge is going to come in handy for you. So just be open in the position that you are to learning everything you can about that position and always be striving to learn more. Like always be striving to learn more because knowledge is definitely the key in this industry and preparation. Practice. Watch movies. Watch TV shows. Watch experimental shit. Watch shorts. Shoot shit. Shoot like a 30 second project. Shoot your cat. Shoot your dog. Shoot your toes on the ground. Frame something up. Take photos, like anything that you can do in a visual sense, like do it because you never know what you're learning. Like everything is a new, like every second you do something is almost like a new experience for your brain. It's like, cause you gotta remember like as adults, our brains aren't necessarily like taking a new information like when we were children. It's like playing back through a series of like experiences we've had. So if you can get to a moment where you're just like deep in it and you can have like these moments of like true learning, you'll get so much out of that that you don't even realize. It'll be in your subconscious and you'll be on a set one day, you'll be the A-op on something and they'll be like, hey, we got an idea for a shot. You think we can do this, this, this, this, this? And you'll be like. ⁓ shit! Yep, we can. We can. Cause you'll remember five, six years ago, you were in your apartment and you tried to do something like that and you were like, if I had this gear, I would have done it this way, this this way. So you never know where your references are gonna come from. So that's what I would say. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back soon with another great episode. Don't forget to check us out on theop.io for all sorts of information on operating and storytelling. So thanks for listening and have a great day.