532: Interoception and Embodiment Science in Clinical Practice with Tracy Jarvis

0:00[SPEAKER_03]: Therapy chat podcasts up to some five-term each year. [SPEAKER_01]: This is the Therapy Chat podcast with Laura Regan, LCSWC. [SPEAKER_01]: The information shared in this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from a licensed mental health professional. [SPEAKER_01]: And now, here's your host, Laura Regan, LCSWC. [SPEAKER_03]: Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat, and hello from where I am, which is a very hot place where I am working hard on the book that I've been telling everybody can I'm writing.

0:54[SPEAKER_03]: You need to make some good progress, and I'm so happy about that. [SPEAKER_03]: Don't you just have to get away from your normal life to have that headstaste to be able to do that? [SPEAKER_03]: This week episode is about, you know, trauma resolution and nervous system regulation or hot topics. [SPEAKER_03]: We see all over social media, but there's another piece that's often looked out of the discussion. [SPEAKER_03]: This week, my guest is my colleague and friend Tracy Jarvis, who was a second therapist with a bad-growing neuroscience, who was a couple.

1:25[SPEAKER_03]: founder and one of the core faculty of interception international, a training institute integrating interception research with the clinical application of psychotherapy. [SPEAKER_03]: In our conversation, Tracy explores the complex world of interception, its role in trauma, recovery, and its implications for clinicians. [SPEAKER_03]: Tracy explains the moon of the word interception and how it's distinct from semantics and how clinicians can use to occur and how clinicians can use nuanced approaches, help clients understand and work with internal sensations.

1:59[SPEAKER_03]: Discover how understanding internal sensing can transform therapeutic approaches and improve emotional regulation. [SPEAKER_03]: Tracy Jarvis, MSC, is a licensed psychotherapist in a national trainer and consultant [SPEAKER_03]: specializing in neuroscience and trauma, Tracy combines a rigorous academic foundation with over twenty-five years of yoga and movement practice, bringing a deeply embodied and neurobiological perspective to her clinical and teaching work.

2:28[SPEAKER_03]: Before co-founding Interception International, she was the founder and CEO of PSEUK, previously psychotherapy excellence, a not-pro profit organization and the largest clinical [SPEAKER_03]: with a sensory motorcycle therapy institute, and she has a specialist private practice focusing on PTSD, complex trauma, and other trauma-related issues and diagnoses. [SPEAKER_03]: She teaches, advises, and consults on trauma and clinical strategy for various organizations.

3:00[SPEAKER_03]: worldwide, as well as for TV and film, emphasizing the importance of the bi-directional approach to treating psychological trauma. [SPEAKER_03]: So we're going to really dive into the topic of interception. [SPEAKER_03]: It's very important for anyone who's doing somatic work, anyone who's not doing somatic work to understand interception. [SPEAKER_03]: So let's dive right into my conversation with Tracy Jarvis. [SPEAKER_02]: Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat.

3:31[SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host, Laura Ragan, and today I'm so happy to be joined by Tracy Jarvis. [SPEAKER_02]: Tracy, thank you so much for being my guest on Therapy Chat today. [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's a pleasure, Laura. [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for inviting me. [SPEAKER_00]: So good to be here. [SPEAKER_02]: The pleasure is all mine. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm thrilled to be with you. [SPEAKER_02]: I've been wanting to interview you on my podcast for a long time, and we met.

3:57[SPEAKER_02]: I think it was two, almost two years ago now. [SPEAKER_02]: Very randomly in England when [SPEAKER_02]: We met through our real shorts and since then we've become buddies and good colleagues and got to spend a lot more time together. [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm super thrilled about what you're doing, which is what we're going to talk about. [SPEAKER_02]: And before we get into it, let's just start off by you letting our audience know a little bit more about your background who you are and what you do.

4:32[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I'm a licensed psychotherapist. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a trauma specialist and I see clients in Oxford and England and online globally. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm an international trainer, former trainer for sentry motorcycle therapy institute, [SPEAKER_00]: just set up our own training institute, Interception International, which is really focusing and we're busy building a curriculum on Interception and Formed Therapy. [SPEAKER_00]: I'm also one of the previous founders and CEOs of one of the Pessie companies and used to have my own business and after saying that I'd never ever start another company again.

5:23[SPEAKER_00]: I recently started Interception International with my good colleagues and co-founders, so yeah, and that sort of brings me today where I teach a lot globally and on trauma, complex trauma related to interception and embodiment, and that's what brings us to here now together. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, so, you know, some people may not be familiar with the word interception, but embodiment, everybody's talking about right now and somatic therapies and, you know, with you previously being a trainer in a somatic psychotherapy method, will you tell people what are we talking about when we say [SPEAKER_00]: So interception is how we sense internally, right?

6:19[SPEAKER_00]: So how do we sense, for example, sensation? [SPEAKER_00]: And it's not just sensation related to emotion or the trauma response. [SPEAKER_00]: It's also how do I sense when I'm hungry? [SPEAKER_00]: How do I sense when perhaps an organ has a pain or something's happening? [SPEAKER_00]: How do I sense my heart beat? [SPEAKER_00]: How do I sense what's happening in the body? [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of research. [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, there's over 4,500 articles on both the medical side and the psychological side on interception.

7:00[SPEAKER_00]: And yes, I do come from somatic therapy as a, you know, clinician, certified clinician, as well as a trainer, international trainer. [SPEAKER_00]: And what's the difference? [SPEAKER_00]: What's the difference between interception and semantics? [SPEAKER_00]: Sematics has a lot of more movement practices in it. [SPEAKER_00]: It is of the body too. [SPEAKER_00]: But when we look to interception and some of the research, interception 80% of it happens unconsciously.

7:33[SPEAKER_00]: even with the most complex clients where there's been a lot of trauma, it's been prolonged, it's been horrific, it's been developmentally timed for people who can't sense their bodies because for all the right reasons, actually their intersection of interceptive processes are happening in any case. [SPEAKER_00]: and that's 80% unconscious and roughly about 20% for all of us we can get a sense of what's happening. [SPEAKER_00]: So how it diffuses that on the interception side, there's a lot of emerging research.

8:11[SPEAKER_00]: and on the somatic side, I'm not saying that there isn't research, but there's less research. [SPEAKER_00]: And on the interception side, there's research connecting those unconscious processes signaling in the body to emotional responses through the memory all the way up to consciousness. [SPEAKER_00]: So there's like a line in terms of what we're seeing in the RCTs and the other sort of empirical evidence bases around the impact on certain things and intersection.

8:45[SPEAKER_02]: Even for people who don't really feel what's happening inside. [SPEAKER_02]: I know I was in that group for a long time before I learned [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I feel so many sensations all the time on my body, it's almost like distracting, because like with fiber of my algae, you have these like sensations on the skin or like there's burning or [SPEAKER_02]: a chill or cold and it's like, oh, what's going on? [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm really curious about this because, I mean, in addition to just as a clinician for my own self, I'm aware that my system is sending me these signals through this.

9:31[SPEAKER_02]: sensations. [SPEAKER_02]: And my mind thinks it's like trying to tell me something, but it feels like it's like an overactive response at the same time, because whatever it's trying to tell me, it's like it's here, then it's here, then it's here, then it's on my side of my leg, then it's on my right big toe. [SPEAKER_02]: And you know, it's just like continuously. [SPEAKER_02]: So what's the, [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so the role, if we look to some of Professor Antonia Damasia's work and others in homeostasis, and the role of interception is really around keeping everything functioning at balance.

10:17[SPEAKER_00]: And again, you know, I'm not a scientist, I'm not a researcher, I'm a clinician, and I work with [SPEAKER_00]: interception, and it's role in, you know, what Professor Demasio says, in keeping everything kind of functioning. [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like the baseline before the mind, right? [SPEAKER_00]: It's the mind before the mind. [SPEAKER_00]: So, and he calls up the proto self, and we know that [SPEAKER_00]: When that gets disrupted at a very kind of cold level, for example, from adversity in terms of, you know, at this child of experiences and all trauma because some aces on traumatic and some are, [SPEAKER_00]: That can impact that sort of what Damascus calls the proto self.

11:16[SPEAKER_00]: And then what we see or what we see in that theory is that that proto self-baseline homestasis has implications for the autobiographical self in terms of Damascus language, like the self as I am now, in terms of my experience, and everything that affects that. [SPEAKER_00]: So, that's one of the roles of interception as we understand it today. [SPEAKER_00]: So, it's not just about sensing internally, like in some acts, or we've sense internally, it actually has an incredible [SPEAKER_00]: biological, physiological, every kind of function that then relates into the interceptive system, which is critically important, for example, even just a staying alive, breathing, heart rate, or that kind of thing.

12:13[SPEAKER_02]: This is very interesting. [SPEAKER_02]: So you mentioned that there's a ton of research on what the impact of interception has. [SPEAKER_02]: Can you talk a little bit about some of those impacts and how they would relate to us as clinicians? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So, so one of the things you were talking earlier about, you know, if it's okay to use your Phybrometile jaznings, you know, you're saying lots of different sensations and what I understood by what you're saying that [SPEAKER_00]: then there was some interpretation that was going you know with what might that mean was that coming from and so in some of the interception research there's a couple of things that and again I you know I'm not the science expert and I'm still learning a lot as we develop our company but one of the current research questions at the moment and there's many papers on this [SPEAKER_00]: is around kind of, you know, signal noise reductions.

13:14[SPEAKER_00]: So what does that mean? [SPEAKER_00]: It means that when there's more adversity in the system, there's higher kind of noise or signaling, [SPEAKER_00]: misinterpretation. [SPEAKER_00]: For example, when I have this feeling or this sensation and that film sense, I'm sort of sensing in that posterior insular, the insular sort of is a brain region that anterior part of the insular [SPEAKER_00]: is said what the research tells us is said to kind of give that interpretation then on that felt sense.

13:50[SPEAKER_00]: So give you a clinical example, recently working with a you know 60 year old female who was unfortunately sexually abused by her grandfather and what would happen is that her legs [SPEAKER_00]: What's the first thing that comes to mind as you feel that sensation, your legs are tension and she's said to me, it's dangerous. [SPEAKER_00]: Now tension in the legs. [SPEAKER_00]: can mean a multi-plicity of things. [SPEAKER_00]: It can be like on the other side of that, it could be going for a run and really feeling like your muscles have worked out or doing yoga pilates and feeling like, wow, my fascia has stretched a bit, maybe a little bit sort of too much on the one side and it's okay.

14:39[SPEAKER_00]: But in terms of this specific individual, right? [SPEAKER_00]: The interpretation of the interceptive experience was as dangerous. [SPEAKER_00]: So we see that clinically and I see that clinically in my practice and I think many clinicians do that there is interpretation around the noise of the interceptive sensation or the signal. [SPEAKER_00]: It also goes more in-depth than I say like I don't know all the scientific research about the [SPEAKER_00]: Some of the research is so like the higher the noise that when that noise is reduced internally, this symptoms go away.

15:22[SPEAKER_00]: Now, that's really interesting, you know, for substance misuse, other mental health challenges, reducing that signal to noise ratio has a massive impact then on behavior and and and and and and adaptive strategies that were once. [SPEAKER_00]: whether it's alcohol or drugs or sex drugs rock and roll that will once part of a person's life because of the adversity. [SPEAKER_00]: Now then reducing some of that signal to noise ratio, then some of those behaviors sort of moving away going away.

16:00[SPEAKER_00]: So that's some of the clinical application behind that. [SPEAKER_00]: And there's a three-dimensional model by Professor Sarah Goughlin-Cole and colleagues, Professor Goughlin-Cole is out of UCL at the University College London. [SPEAKER_00]: And again, the research is not totally concrete on this, but [SPEAKER_00]: when we sort of bring more awareness to the system or reduce some of the signal signals, we see that three dimensional model actually get better.

16:36[SPEAKER_00]: And intersection accuracy, for example, is when [SPEAKER_00]: It's an objective measure, so for example, if I want to measure someone's interceptive accuracy, I might hook them up not clinically, but you know, in the hospital, maybe two like a heartbeat detection test, and I might say to them, well, how many times a minute does your heartbeat, and they might sense into their body, and they might say, well, it beats, you know, 45, but actually what the measure coming out at me beats 65.

17:05[SPEAKER_00]: So there's some sense of inaccuracy around that. [SPEAKER_00]: When we look to Interceptive Sensibility, which is someone's belief in the ability to sense sensation, and we know that in trauma survivors, well, you know, the research is a little bit mixed here, we see that Interceptive Sensibility reduced. [SPEAKER_00]: There's an impairment, [SPEAKER_00]: to them feeling super confident that when I have the sensation in my body I can feel it and I feel that that is the sensation I'm feeling.

17:44[SPEAKER_00]: So we see that in terms of dissociation or the numbing or [SPEAKER_00]: feeling things that maybe out there are are there depending on what's happening with the person. [SPEAKER_00]: And then in terms of, you know, interceptive awareness, which many people know is sematic awareness, we also see through different adversity and and and and trauma, [SPEAKER_00]: reduction in the ability to be able to be aware of what's happening inside, and clinically we do a lot of work in interceptive awareness to really engage those [SPEAKER_00]: prefrontal cortex areas to be able to sense and be aware of what is happening internally in the body.

18:34[SPEAKER_00]: And so when you look to those kind of three-dimensional model, the awareness, the accuracy and the sensibility, while we can't measure that clinically in clinical practice, [SPEAKER_00]: increase those measures because they are decreased through adversity, trauma, etc. [SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, there's a direct correlation between what we see mental health wise and where people are on those sort of measures. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's important because a lot of the time, somatically, we'll do somatical body under therapies, but we don't actually have a measure, not that everything has to be a measure, but it's a great way to ask the question, which we do need to ask ourselves, is what we're doing working?

19:29[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes, we might not be able to answer that in terms of science because the things that happen is you and I know clinically and between people that is not going to be in this lifetime that people are going to find the science that are going to tell us what exactly happened right and something some fascinating and surprising things happen and you don't see those things in the research a lot of times. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, and however these measures give us a little bit of a base as well, and then there's obviously a correlation between those and signal to noise ratio.

20:05[SPEAKER_00]: et cetera. [SPEAKER_00]: And what I haven't mentioned that I'll just mention is that when we were talking about that interpretation, then there's this interceptive appraisal, for example, with my client who, you know, the tension in the legs was dangerous, but then there's the reappraisal. [SPEAKER_00]: So for example, with a highly dissociative client, but you can't just go into the body. [SPEAKER_00]: But what you can do is start to kind of re-appraising sensation, so the system doesn't feel so unsafe.

20:37[SPEAKER_00]: Because if you have a fear feeling, for example, hypervigilance, and then you have a thought, or belief, this sensation means danger. [SPEAKER_00]: You're exacerbating what's there already. [SPEAKER_00]: There might be hypervigilance coming from, you know, the Paracord Dr. Gray and those mid-brain structures. [SPEAKER_00]: And now you've got an exacerbation because now there's another interpretation of what this might mean. [SPEAKER_00]: So now you're exacerbating the hyper arousal or the hyper arousal, you can go either way.

21:06[SPEAKER_00]: So with those dissociative clients and clients with a lot of complexity, it's easier to work and save it to work with the interpretation. [SPEAKER_00]: of sensation and get the system into more of a, you know, when I feel this, for example, with the client, the, the, the tension in my legs. [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, you know what, that feels like what I've just been for a run. [SPEAKER_00]: That's the same sensation. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it doesn't feel dangerous.

21:36[SPEAKER_00]: You know, funny enough, my heart's not beating right now. [SPEAKER_00]: As fast as it did when we first did the exercise six weeks ago. [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, that can really help bridge working with the body in terms of, you know, [SPEAKER_00]: clients who've experienced either a lot of bodily harm or for whatever the reason is Conquired go into the body because it's not okay to do so and it can kind of really spin people out of control.

22:02[SPEAKER_00]: So that's clinically how I use it. [SPEAKER_00]: I use it, you know, it's a bit a top-down work. [SPEAKER_00]: It's great because we really understanding what are some of those appraisals and then I can start to work with the body and clients are feeling safer to do that. [SPEAKER_00]: Once we've worked and identified some of those appraisals around sensation. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for the explanations and I just want to make sure I'm understanding the distinction you're making there is before going because the person is dissociated from their body and they're [SPEAKER_02]: that starting off this way more in the top down approach rather than trying to go to the body right away is gives them the chance to explore kind of more of an expansive perspective about what they're feeling, what they're, you know, even possibilities that they're looking at.

23:09[SPEAKER_02]: Am I understanding correctly? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and what the meaning that has been made around the, it's natural to feel fear and being frightened and terror when traumatic experiences, you know, when someone has had, you know, traumatic experiences. [SPEAKER_00]: totally natural. [SPEAKER_00]: And it's also natural to a praise and experience. [SPEAKER_00]: Something happens with so much kind of force. [SPEAKER_00]: For example, hypothetically, I walk outside my house and I walk into the road and I'm nearly hit by a bus God forbid.

23:42[SPEAKER_00]: And I think to myself, you know, because I then feel my heart kind of go up. [SPEAKER_00]: But I think then every time that sort of, you know, feeling comes into my heart, I'm like, I'm in a die. [SPEAKER_00]: And no, I'm not going to die. [SPEAKER_00]: I nearly died, but I didn't die, but then that belief, every time I feel that sensation has the kind of associated belief of I'm going to die. [SPEAKER_00]: So you can understand that, for example, with physical and sexual violence, emotionally abuse, coercive control, if we just look more widely climate change, wars, conflicts, [SPEAKER_00]: around these, you know, experiences that are happening and then some of those interpretations of the felt sense, of the interception.

24:33[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, with more dissociative clients, it's easier to work there because obviously the body's the enemy, right? [SPEAKER_00]: It's not for all clients who have experienced trauma because we know some of the statistics, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Only 80% of the [SPEAKER_00]: some kind of trauma, but only 20% give get a PTSD diet, PTSD diet, those are the figures of somewhere along this line. [SPEAKER_00]: So we can really help people who feel [SPEAKER_00]: that this is not the place to go into the body right now, but it can be by using more of a, you know, psyched occasional explanation about what's happening, totally normal to have those appraisals about what's happening in the body.

25:20[SPEAKER_00]: We want to get some kind of real praisal happening. [SPEAKER_00]: And once they are feeling comfortable, we can start to kind of tap into the body and tap out, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Tap in and tap out. [SPEAKER_00]: And then we can go deeper. [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the psychotherapies nowadays, certainly the body psychotherapies, you know, to go to the body. [SPEAKER_00]: Really? [SPEAKER_00]: We don't have to just go to the body. [SPEAKER_00]: We can do incredible work in a safe and phase-oriented way.

25:48[SPEAKER_00]: by working top-down and then going to the body and also depending on, you know, the client sort of system different phases of working with body, not working with body, doing a bit of this, doing a bit of that, to sort of to help people. [SPEAKER_00]: Because we must remember that a lot of this disruption in interception awareness [SPEAKER_00]: interception, sensibility and interceptive accuracy. [SPEAKER_00]: One of the core sort of ideas coming out of the research is with regard to emotional dysregulation.

26:28[SPEAKER_00]: So when we're improving those three measures, what they're seeing in the research and in some of the research, a lot of the research is an improved emotional way of regulating the self, which is absolutely critical to [SPEAKER_00]: just, you know, quality of daily life, just having an OK day for many individuals that have smooth and, you know, less bumpy up and down. [SPEAKER_00]: That's what we want for people, right? [SPEAKER_00]: We want them to be more emotionally stable, regulated.

26:57[SPEAKER_00]: And when dysregulated knowing, [SPEAKER_00]: What to do to get back to some of that regulation if possible and or give practices that can help with that this regulation that comes from that Misinterpretation of the signal issue. [SPEAKER_02]: I see I agree with you too that, you know, I mean, I'm actually going to add something and you didn't explicitly say this, but I've noticed that the whole [SPEAKER_02]: the whole story about what therapy should feel like and look like and how it should go.

27:38[SPEAKER_02]: Sort of like this cultural understanding of what happens in therapy. [SPEAKER_02]: I feel has really been influenced by social media and this perception that everything is going to be like a really dramatic body oriented like catharsis in every therapy session now and that's not [SPEAKER_02]: true. [SPEAKER_00]: That's right. [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, you know, I'm glad that you mentioned it because, you know, a lot of people nowadays either look to AI or they look to TikTok or they look to Instagram or they look to kind of some form of of of of something with some clinicians who aren't even licensed.

28:21[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe some coaches that aren't even licensed. [SPEAKER_02]: We're necessarily qualified with what they're sharing [SPEAKER_00]: That's right, that's right, that's right. [SPEAKER_00]: And I want to say to myself, like, no, I don't know all the research on interception, so you know, maybe I've made some mistakes in terms of how I was explaining it, but I know a lot of it as a licensed clinician and I'm knowing more. [SPEAKER_00]: But what you're saying is choose because the whole kind of trend has been about the body, about the body.

28:49[SPEAKER_00]: And I in some ways, I think that's itchogenic, meaning harm caused by intervention, because there's a large part of the population. [SPEAKER_00]: that does want to heal and that does go to social media or other sort of, you know, outlets for content, which are being sort of the information is incorrect and and and can lead to them feeling in worse positions because what happens if someone can't feel their body because it's numb or they every time they go towards it, but they get some kind of abreaction or something else happens.

29:25[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, what's the point, you know, I can't even, I can't even do this. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, just notice and send your breath for sort of, you know, three embrace and three operas will actually, with people with, you know, used to work in inpatient, with CPTSD and kind of on more the complex associative side of things. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, breath, feeling the breath, especially in sexual trauma survivors. [SPEAKER_00]: is eye atrogenic and can cause retraumatization because many sexual trauma survivors concentrate on the count of the breath or the breath to get through as an adaptive strategy whatever and unfortunately happen to them.

30:05[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, there's a lot of misinformation there and it's really dependent and I feel very passionately about this. [SPEAKER_00]: I read having the right strategies [SPEAKER_00]: in a nuanced way for the client or the person, and it definitely is not all about the body. [SPEAKER_00]: I've had, I mean, I've had a lot of success working with the body and I do, but I've had incredible changes for people, you know, just huge amounts of insight when they recognize or where they've been able to sort of, yeah, this feels like this.

30:39[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you know, totally shift [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm so glad you mentioned that because there's a lot of misinformation out there and certainly by people, unfortunately, they try to do good in the world, but it's helpful to be qualified if you're going to be working or putting content out, that can influence people who don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: That's their life. [SPEAKER_02]: That's right. [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, the the creator who puts something out and tells people this is how it is and this is what you should do and I'm going to demonstrate it for you and then that's what they think needs to happen is not going to be with you when you start having flashbacks or panic attacks and your system is overwhelmed and you don't know what to do and it's not blaming anybody for trying to find healing and help where they [SPEAKER_02]: note a look and and yet I think it's really important you know you're you have so much humility about what you're speaking about and you continually say that you're not a researcher but do you have undergraduate degree in neuroscience?

31:55[SPEAKER_00]: I have a master's in neuroscience. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay then [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't have a PG. [SPEAKER_00]: You know what you're talking about, though. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just saying. [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I know a little bit of what I'm talking about, because actually the interception or research is really so vast, you know, across not just homeostasis, all the stasis, signal to noise reduction, different sort of other systems working with the interceptive system, [SPEAKER_00]: you know, some of the mechanisms of change within interception and how those sort of like pair with like the default point network and the savings network and you know that there's a lot of things happening.

32:31[SPEAKER_00]: It's complex. [SPEAKER_00]: But the to your point, Laura, like, you know, for people putting out content, I'm big into nuance. [SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't know. [SPEAKER_00]: what's going to work for a client? [SPEAKER_00]: I might have a lot of experience of working with Choma. [SPEAKER_00]: But to think I know, I don't know what's going to work for someone. [SPEAKER_00]: It's about really being with that person and them guiding you, exploring and experimenting and seeing like what works for that system.

33:07[SPEAKER_02]: Yep. [SPEAKER_02]: rather than saying, well, you go do this and do one, two, three, four, and book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, book, [SPEAKER_02]: have to to some extent, but I struggle because so much of what we do with clients.

33:44[SPEAKER_02]: There's no formula that you could just make a 1 to 3 to 5 minute video about. [SPEAKER_02]: and it's going to fit for everyone and there's so much that is a felt-sense experience in the therapeutic process that is a felt-sense between the two nervous systems that are involved or if it's a group or whatever the case may be. [SPEAKER_02]: That's right. [SPEAKER_02]: And like you said, it's this [SPEAKER_02]: And seeing, is this meeting the person where they are, is this going where they don't want to go or they're not ready to go or whatever.

34:28[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I agree with you about nuance and this is really important stuff. [SPEAKER_02]: So you are training clinicians in your approach. [SPEAKER_02]: That's part of what you're developing with your organization, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So we're just busy building out. [SPEAKER_00]: Actually, we just launched our first event in in February. [SPEAKER_00]: And congratulations. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

34:55[SPEAKER_00]: We had like 2,300 people sign up and it was, you know, started the marketing super late and, you know, we've got several events coming up, but we're busy building a curriculum at the moment. [SPEAKER_00]: both for clinicians and then hopefully actually a coaching track because you can utilize you know, move the clinical part and actually impact a lot of people in a great way. [SPEAKER_00]: with the non-clinical part, and there's a robust evidence base behind it, which nothing, others have to be about evidence.

35:35[SPEAKER_00]: But it does give an evidence informed framework to what's happening around, like we mentioned earlier, like embodiment, right? [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and yeah, and it also includes, I can therapy, it can't just be about interception, because interception in the sciences is very specific to what's happening internally. [SPEAKER_00]: So we are going to be bringing in and probably through a paper that we will release [SPEAKER_00]: and exorception being about how we experience the outside world, and then that proper perception, you know, all those with a vestibious system and, you know, how we balance and the internal workings.

36:23[SPEAKER_00]: and how that then integrates in terms of the perpiscential and with the sentences, etc. [SPEAKER_00]: So we'll be bringing in those pieces of research as well because otherwise an interception informed model, it can't just be an interception informed model because we need different ways of sensing and also sensing externally, not just internally, to have a therapeutic model, which is exciting. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm very excited and I feel fortunate to be kind of like watching you birth this and I know your commitment to the work you do and your you know like you jokingly kind of jokingly said that you'd vow to you wouldn't start another company but here you are but you know there's [SPEAKER_02]: you, and you're doing something really important, and I know the colleagues who, at least some of the colleagues who you're involved with as well, are equally committed and deep roots in this type of work.

37:36[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I want to share something about that because actually I've never shed this before and it's on my website. [SPEAKER_00]: So this is public that I had post-traumatic stress disorder for sort of several years, five years. [SPEAKER_00]: But the first thing I noticed when this got triggered, I don't know where, you know, everything thought of coming up from adversity, when I, you know, from the adversity I suffered as a child, [SPEAKER_00]: I was able to, thankfully, notice a part and that part was a movement and interceptive sense inside my stomach.

38:09[SPEAKER_00]: And so, you know, birthing, interception and tenational speaks to if I, you know, rewind the clock. [SPEAKER_00]: It's over 20 years since this happened since I had a breakdown. [SPEAKER_00]: And fortunately, just that awareness, that interceptive awareness, I think, is what really helped me. [SPEAKER_00]: because I was able to stay with the sense of interception and then start to work of its through body psychotherapy after the talk therapy didn't work for some time.

38:48[SPEAKER_00]: But I never lost contact with my interception. [SPEAKER_00]: And I know for some people, you know, they're numb or they're constantly body. [SPEAKER_00]: They totally dissociate. [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, I had periods of really bad dissociation. [SPEAKER_00]: But I could still sense. [SPEAKER_00]: And so interception is really important to me, because it's kind of, if I go back off long ago, it's kind of where it all started. [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm deeply curious about the interceptive system.

39:19[SPEAKER_00]: for everyone because it has a lot of interceptive intelligence like we know the words you know somatic intelligence interceptive intelligence but actually when I was doing some research I came across a guy called Walter Cannon and this guy was around like the 1930s and when I was researching he wrote a book in 1932 which was called [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's called the wisdom of the body, which I'd never come across before. [SPEAKER_00]: I thought a lot of the semantic pioneers of our field today had discovered somatic wisdom.

39:57[SPEAKER_00]: But actually, when you look at the research into Walter Cannon and some of the other researchers back then, you find a lot of them talking about this internal wisdom. [SPEAKER_00]: And I had that moment of internal wisdom, because I feel that if I had not noticed that sort of movement sensation in my stomach, [SPEAKER_00]: I think that I would have probably ended up rightly so in a hospital with medication to to try and get back to reality.

40:25[SPEAKER_00]: But somehow I was able to sense it and never lost it. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: So that's why it's important. [SPEAKER_00]: That's why I'm doing what I'm doing. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for sharing that. [SPEAKER_02]: And then I will say, as I said to you before we started recording, speaking about that movement sensation in your stomach and the way that you know that it was some wisdom and it was something that you could hold on to when you were kind of losing yourself.

40:56[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that just I feel that on a visceral level and it's, you know, it's, it's like it feels meaningful and it's really hard to explain what feels so meaningful about it to me. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that, you know, that knowing that something is landing on a visceral level even though it's really hard to put it into words is a part of what we're talking about, right? [SPEAKER_00]: That's right. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes there are no words.

41:29[SPEAKER_00]: And there was so many words in those no words. [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a lot of, you know, what I experience in myself as a being, but also clinically what I experience with many of my clients is that so much can happen in that interceptive sense, or in that, you know, experiencing between, you know, client and therapist, and there are no words. [SPEAKER_00]: There's actually a lot of words, and there's a lot of information happening below the level of consciousness, right, in that 80% I was talking about in both systems.

42:04[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't think we have the, you know, the neuroscience apparatus, the neuroscience apparatus to measure right now, [SPEAKER_00]: what's happening. [SPEAKER_00]: But I believe we'll get there because we've got just some awesome people in this world doing the most incredible things, the most incredible things in the labs. [SPEAKER_00]: We'll get there. [SPEAKER_02]: And just because you can't measure it yet doesn't mean that it's not happening.

42:33[SPEAKER_02]: So [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think that it's something to think about just like for what it's worth. [SPEAKER_02]: We were talking about a felt sense and we're talking about using language and talking to access the felt sense as well and psycho education and you know, so we're talking about top down. [SPEAKER_02]: We're talking about bottom up, but as therapists and people who work with clients, it can be really [SPEAKER_02]: And when there's a pause to not just fill the space, feel into what's happening.

43:09[SPEAKER_02]: And that's all coming up for me as we're talking. [SPEAKER_02]: But whenever I'm around you, I always feel like that. [SPEAKER_00]: But you're so, but you're so right, right? [SPEAKER_00]: You're so right because, you know, perhaps to expand some of, you know, you know, Professor Dan Seekle's work, Professor Alan Schoer, Louis Cousallino, who developed interpersonal neurobiology, you know, that interpersonal than the neurobiological, you know, physical aspect.

43:43[SPEAKER_00]: There is a whole, you know, and as this sort of develops as a theory and, you know, research later, there's a whole unspoken kind of information said happening below the level of consciousness. [SPEAKER_00]: You know, Alan Short talks about it in terms of that right-brain-to-right-brain communication. [SPEAKER_00]: This huge amounts of research, I can't, you know, name everyone, and I'm always reminded of, [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the late Colin Chavasan, he was a professor of psychology at university, Edibre.

44:14[SPEAKER_00]: You know, he did a lot of work on kind of mother baby kind of language and kind of like the dance, with sometimes vocalization, but sometimes not vocalization. [SPEAKER_00]: Right, so, so what I took from that work and this might not, this may or may not be accurate, but is that there's a lot of data between caregiver attachment, you know, parents or non-parents depending on the upbringing with the developing person and also as we kind of fast forward into the here and now that when we're sitting with clinicians, [SPEAKER_00]: There's all that that's happening without words.

44:57[SPEAKER_00]: There's words, and there's not words. [SPEAKER_00]: And those are kind of like data sets that we can't quite. [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of like the epigenome right now. [SPEAKER_00]: We know in kind of transgenerational trauma that, you know, professor Rachel, you who does work, there's a link between, you know, if we just look to Holocaust survivors, you know, the grandparent's in the Holocaust, then there's a, then the parents don't have any symptoms and then, you know, PTSD, you might see a child or children with PTSD.

45:24[SPEAKER_00]: Seems even though there's been sort of no immediate trauma in their lifetime. [SPEAKER_00]: But how do we, how do we kind of know? [SPEAKER_00]: You know, we can, she's sort of proving that and it's similar with this kind of the unspoken that we, how we sit and how we are with ourselves, [SPEAKER_00]: and also our clients that one day, hopefully we'll be able to measure and kind of expand that into person neurobiology lens, you know, just coming back.

45:57[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that we can put words to interception and that interception also has no words. [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, obviously it has no words, but I think that there is another language here that we miss and that we can't measure just yet. [SPEAKER_00]: and that has a lot of impact. [SPEAKER_00]: Certainly when I'm working with people, I know because they're changed and not a lot has been said. [SPEAKER_00]: Some things have been said, but there is a different something that happens at a very kind of core level.

46:30[SPEAKER_02]: Very exciting, very exciting to see what will [SPEAKER_02]: So you have you're in the process of creating this training, but you have some stuff that's already available now on your website right can you talk a little bit about what people can find and then give us the the website link to so, you know, I'll put it in the show notes. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sure. [SPEAKER_00]: So there's, um, we've got several trading on the trading's coming up.

47:02[SPEAKER_00]: We've got Abbey Blakely on the power of interception and trauma coming up on the 29th of May. [SPEAKER_00]: I've got a interception and the neurobiology of complex trauma recovery on the 19th of June. [SPEAKER_00]: We've got consultation coming up of my guest speaker or my guest partner in consultation is Dr. Kate Truett coming up in September, October, November. [SPEAKER_00]: I've just trying to organize something for July. [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's going to be an interception and ASD ADHD, senior divergence.

47:37[SPEAKER_00]: So we'll have like a one day training every month, it'll either be six hours or three hours. [SPEAKER_00]: You can come, you can access it for free. [SPEAKER_00]: If you want the CE's, you can upsell and pay for that. [SPEAKER_00]: We've also got another summit coming up on the second and third of October. [SPEAKER_00]: So, um, that is, if I could remember, that's interception and neuroscience in clinical practice. [SPEAKER_00]: So, again, a little bit more of that kind of brain science neuroscience lens behind the clinical application in therapy.

48:08[SPEAKER_00]: And then hopefully, by then, we will have at least the first draft or first couple of trainings of our new curriculum. [SPEAKER_00]: uh, which we are just sort of putting together as a, you know, as a frame, as an interception informed research back framework. [SPEAKER_02]: Amazing. [SPEAKER_02]: Are you saying that these monthly three to six hour trainings are free? [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and then if people want to see ease, they can pay.

48:34[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's free on the day. [SPEAKER_00]: And if you want the recording and to get the CE's, you can sign up for them and, you know, fabulous. [SPEAKER_00]: We use the in-kific behind sort of our text deck, so you can have an account and access all your recordings of a lifetime access and have your APA or your NDCC or your ASW, forget the social worker. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I was listening for.

49:01[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there you go. [SPEAKER_00]: Fabulous. [SPEAKER_00]: And then the website is InterceptionInternational.com. [SPEAKER_02]: beautiful. [SPEAKER_02]: I'll be sure to link to that in the show notes. [SPEAKER_02]: Tracy, I'm so excited for you and honored that you shared some of your time. [SPEAKER_02]: It's very late at night for you. [SPEAKER_02]: So thank you for being with us here on Therapy Chat today. [SPEAKER_02]: And for everything that you're doing in the world, it's amazing.

49:31[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm so proud to call you my friend and have you as my guest here on Therapy Chat. [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much, Laura. [SPEAKER_00]: It's always a pleasure to talk to you. [SPEAKER_00]: And you know what? [SPEAKER_00]: I also really excited for what you doing in the world, bringing people together in the way that you do, putting up content and asking like super important and putting in questions, which impact our field and get people thinking in the right ways around, [SPEAKER_00]: what we're trying to do in this therapeutic space.

50:05[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I'm always, you know, have this sort of quote at the back of my head. [SPEAKER_00]: I think a sort of James Hillman said, you know, we've had a hundred years of psychotherapy. [SPEAKER_00]: and the world hasn't changed. [SPEAKER_00]: Now for me, you know, that's a statement and in some ways it's true because I think it's really important like you're doing. [SPEAKER_00]: We need us not asking the right questions and myself included doing the work that if we're going to be practicing [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's the same thing, us as a human race of where we've been here before.

50:50[SPEAKER_00]: It's not the first time the world has been here, but I think the question to ask, you know, what is it that we're doing within psychotherapy and mental health as a good one? [SPEAKER_00]: Because we're a microcosm for the wider world. [SPEAKER_02]: And I really believe so much ability to impact change. [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I agree with you a hundred percent. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so thank you for saying that and um yeah and thank you for the kind words that you said about me as well and I'm grateful for what we can do.

51:20[SPEAKER_02]: Try to get people thinking, try to keep opening, opening our perspective about things. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening to Therapy Chat, with your host, Laura Reagan, LCSWC. [SPEAKER_01]: For more information, please visit Therapy ChatPodcast.com.