538: How To Help The Helper: Caring For The Self with Vanessa Bear

0:00[SPEAKER_00]: Therapy Chat Podcast Episode 5-3-8 This is the Therapy Chat Podcast with Laura Regan, LCSWC. [SPEAKER_00]: The information shared in this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from a licensed mental health professional. [SPEAKER_00]: And now, here's your host, Laura Regan, LCSWC. [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host, Laura Reagan, and this week, I am so happy to be speaking with Vanessa Bear.

0:51[SPEAKER_01]: Vanessa Bear is a UKCP registered integrative psychotherapist who works with children and adults. [SPEAKER_01]: Vanessa also works as a mountain leader, yoga teacher, and Willowbasketmaker. [SPEAKER_01]: She created the Wilder Mild being card deck and co-authored with Bebent Rothschild, the keys to safe trauma recovery workbook, and the new helped for the helper workbook, which is what we're talking about today. [SPEAKER_01]: Vanessa lives in the beautiful Lake District National Park in the UK, and we had a beautiful and very resonant conversation, in my opinion, [SPEAKER_01]: about care for the self as a helper.

1:31[SPEAKER_01]: It's a topic that is not new to therapy chat, but it never gets old at the same time. [SPEAKER_01]: It's a constant area of attention for us as helping professionals healers. [SPEAKER_01]: Those in the healing arts, you may not call yourself a healer, but if you are a caregiver, if you steward the land, if you are an animal rights activist, if you are a parent, or have a family member, who you take care of or give care to, if you are a therapist, [SPEAKER_01]: a yoga instructor or an acupuncturist or an occupational therapist or a professor or other types of professionals who take care type of caregiver who often we don't speak about as better in variants and they carry so much stress from their jobs.

2:36[SPEAKER_01]: We all carry so much as we care for others, and if we don't give the same care and attention to ourselves, it really takes an harmful toll. [SPEAKER_01]: So that's what we're talking about today, but we're not talking about it in a negative way. [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about the things that we can do. [SPEAKER_01]: We're talking about safety and self-awareness. [SPEAKER_01]: and the impact of social media, the importance of community, the signs of compassion, fatigue, and bike areas, trauma, and how they impact us.

3:07[SPEAKER_01]: The significance of relational safety and attenement when doing our work and in our own relationship to self and others, how our personal histories come into our work and make it extra heavy, how to [SPEAKER_01]: And this moment that we're living through, who if you're alive right now, wherever you are, there's probably some kind of political stress, climate stress, other violence or fear of war, aftermath of war, natural disasters.

3:46[SPEAKER_01]: These things are happening at all times in all places. [SPEAKER_01]: but not always in so many places at the same time as it feels now, which can make it seem so inescapable and yet we can return to ourselves, which is what we're talking about in this conversation. [SPEAKER_01]: I also want to name that we spoke about the importance of the role of women in the trauma movement. [SPEAKER_01]: Because the voices that seem to get the most attention from the media tend to be the male leaders.

4:19[SPEAKER_01]: But there are so many women leaders in the trauma movement who have not, in my opinion, been given the [SPEAKER_01]: attention and respect, they deserve. [SPEAKER_01]: And one of those is Babette. [SPEAKER_01]: Roth's child, as I talked about, we both talked about in this conversation. [SPEAKER_01]: Babette is one of those women leaders in our field of trauma who makes massive contributions, but isn't in the public spotlight a lot. [SPEAKER_01]: So we talked about what she's doing and she couldn't be with us on the interview because she was busy doing some important work supporting other helpers.

5:05[SPEAKER_01]: So this is what it's all about supporting each other on micro and macro levels and supporting ourselves and supporting one another to support ourselves if that makes sense. [SPEAKER_01]: We're all woven together. [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it's like a braid. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking of that title, braiding sweet grass, that wonderful book from Robin Wall, Kimmerer. [SPEAKER_01]: As I'm recording this, it is the 11th birthday of therapy chat.

5:34[SPEAKER_01]: I know I've been talking a lot about trauma therapist networks fifth birthday this month, but therapy chats 11th birthday is nothing this needs at [SPEAKER_01]: therapy chat is reaching so many people and trauma therapists network is helping therapy chat reach more people and therapy chat is helping trauma therapists network reach more people. [SPEAKER_01]: So once again, mutual support, though they're both my companies, you know, they're working together and separately to [SPEAKER_01]: Create a world that is more trauma responsive, and I don't consider myself alone in that effort, but I'm very proud of the segment of that effort that my work has been able to contribute to.

6:22[SPEAKER_01]: And I say that humbly, but proudly because I think it's really important to [SPEAKER_01]: acknowledge that what we do does have an impact, whether it's a positive or a negative impact, we are impacting our world and the people around us. [SPEAKER_01]: So I didn't think that I had anything to contribute in life because of my own trauma and without even being all that conscious of what I was [SPEAKER_01]: hundreds of thousands of people, I would never have believed that was possible and it doesn't even seem real when I say it.

7:03[SPEAKER_01]: But numbers don't lie. [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you to everyone who listens. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you to every guest who's ever been on therapy chat. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you to every trauma therapist network member. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you to everyone who uses the trauma therapist network directory or the other resources on the website to support trauma survivors. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you to all the trauma survivors who have learned about themselves by listening to therapy chat.

7:30[SPEAKER_01]: and found more responsive therapy choices through that process. [SPEAKER_01]: That was really one of the things that was super important to me in creating trauma therapists network, but another thing is supporting trauma therapists. [SPEAKER_01]: So we're all doing it together. [SPEAKER_01]: Then let's get into my conversation with Vanessa Bear and I hope it will land softly [SPEAKER_01]: and that it's something you can come back to and be sure to check out the help for the helper workbook.

8:07[SPEAKER_01]: It is a beautiful offering to the world. [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host Laura Regan and today I'm so happy to be speaking with Vanessa Bear. [SPEAKER_01]: Vanessa, thank you so much for being my guest on Therapy Chat today. [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so much for having me. [SPEAKER_02]: It's lovely to be here with you. [SPEAKER_01]: It's lovely for me too. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really grateful to be talking to you and to be talking about the new book that you have coming out with your co-author, but that Rothschild.

8:44[SPEAKER_01]: Help for the helper. [SPEAKER_01]: Workbook, personalize your toolkit to prevent compassion fatigue and by carries trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really excited to get into talking about this wonderful book, but before we do, can we start off with you just telling a little bit about who you are and what you do for our listeners? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm a psychotherapist. [SPEAKER_02]: I work with adults, children, and adolescents.

9:09[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a certified somatic trauma therapist, which is the training course that we're about Rothschildruns. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm also trained in yoga therapy and Ecosychotherapy, and I integrate nature connection and embodied [SPEAKER_02]: And I also weave into my week, my working week, being a mounting walking guide, a basket maker, and a yoga teacher. [SPEAKER_02]: Before I was a therapist, I used to run a community bike project and community center, and I worked as a youth community worker.

9:44[SPEAKER_02]: I also worked for a charity that, [SPEAKER_02]: encouraged people, thought enabled people to use sustainable transport. [SPEAKER_02]: And I also worked as a primal school teacher. [SPEAKER_02]: As well as this workbook for that me and Bobette have just written the help for the help of workbook. [SPEAKER_02]: I've also made the wild and well-being card deck, which include practices to develop a deeper connection with nature. [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm also the co-author with the best again of the eight keys to safe trauma because we work book.

10:19[SPEAKER_02]: So this one is the second workbook that we've done together. [SPEAKER_01]: It's beautiful. [SPEAKER_01]: And as we were discussing before we started recording, I really value and appreciate, but that's contribution to the field of somatic trauma therapy. [SPEAKER_01]: her very important book The Body Remembers from 2000 to 2000? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's right. [SPEAKER_02]: 25 years last year. [SPEAKER_02]: So we celebrated the quarter of a century.

10:53[SPEAKER_02]: Lots of those who are assistants on her training course. [SPEAKER_02]: We all made videos about what the book had meant to us in our practice and we sent them all, it was surprised to prepare and she was [SPEAKER_01]: I really want the listeners to hear that this book has been out for 25 years, the body remembers, and many may not be aware of it, but it was definitely deeply impactful for me when I was starting to my work with survivors of sexual trauma, which started in 2002, to really understand how [SPEAKER_01]: The body holds a narrative about an experience which might conflict with our dominant narratives about those experiences and the ways that people might be expected to share what they went through.

11:51[SPEAKER_01]: Speaking of dominant narratives, you know, in western culture, it's so often male voices that are really elevated as the experts and I think the way that female identifying professionals in our field tend to speak about our work isn't always heard as loudly for many reasons, not because we're not talking about it. [SPEAKER_01]: So I want to amplify. [SPEAKER_01]: What, Bobette has done in the past and is doing now on what you two are doing together.

12:24[SPEAKER_01]: And the importance of that safe trauma recovery concept. [SPEAKER_01]: Can you say a little bit about that? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely. [SPEAKER_02]: And like... [SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the kind of couple of the key things that makes kind of the best work, a different is that she writes about quite complex concepts and ideas within psychotherapy and within neuroscience. [SPEAKER_02]: But in a really clear, easy to understand.

12:55[SPEAKER_02]: common sense kind of a way of these to me anyway. [SPEAKER_02]: It makes things a really complicated, very simple and easy to understand and easy to think forward. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and then easy to apply as well, because she also wrote the body remembers casebook and gets loads of different examples of how [SPEAKER_02]: then she puts them at that theory into practice so that it feels possible, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And it feels like it's easier to integrate into our work rather than it just feeling like a like theoretical concept.

13:25[SPEAKER_02]: It feels like it can be directly applied, which is also great and doesn't always happen, I think, in books. [SPEAKER_02]: So I love that. [SPEAKER_02]: And then another really key concept of hers like you say is around making [SPEAKER_02]: So making sure that people are able to feel present and grounded and feel safe and stable and that being the number one importance that the client is able to be to feel safe and to feel stable. [SPEAKER_02]: one of the things that she says somewhere on one of her books is and that trauma therapy shouldn't be traumatizing.

14:07[SPEAKER_02]: And I just think, yeah, obviously, that's exactly the common sense that you just think well, yeah, of course. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so yeah her work is is fantastic and she also runs the somatic from a therapy training and all the facts is underpinned in all of her training and all of her work, this kind of what feels like common sense, but [SPEAKER_02]: isn't always so common. [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel, I don't know how you see this, but I feel that there are there's kind of a direction in therapy of and in coaching, of taking practices and separating them from the context and just like doing the practices where it [SPEAKER_01]: overlooks or ignores the need for safety, as if it's okay to just, you know, was as soon as you meet someone who's feeling very traumatized and potentially unsafe and [SPEAKER_01]: to just begin doing techniques with them, without them feeling safe and stabilized.

15:27[SPEAKER_01]: It's, I feel it's being touted in our culture, in Western culture, to do things that way. [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a whole kind of model around that, or structure around that, where that's being encouraged. [SPEAKER_01]: But the missing piece is the relational safety in the therapeutic experience. [SPEAKER_01]: one's self, like their own, the client's own relationship to self as well. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think this feels connected to me, so I'll see what you think.

15:59[SPEAKER_02]: But for me as well, there's something as well in acknowledging that there is no, there's nothing that works for everybody. [SPEAKER_02]: you know, there's nothing that is going to make everybody feel calm or feel stable or feel grounded with it. [SPEAKER_02]: There's something about how do we also individualise things, individualise practice and be very slow and very aware, right, and mindfully aware that what's [SPEAKER_02]: and being really aware, but while something might do very good for the therapist, it might not be good for the client and it might it might be good for one client and not good for another client, it might be good on one day and not on another day.

16:48[SPEAKER_02]: And so this very kind of having this very slow, aware approach that [SPEAKER_02]: there's very into the highly individualized. [SPEAKER_02]: I also think kind of fix into what you're saying as well. [SPEAKER_02]: It's great. [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't always happened. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, yes, this is what you're saying, there's something about, oh, we just share these exercises or this thing or social media, but I feel worse. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's actually great.

17:14[SPEAKER_02]: So great notice in that you feel worse, you know, great awareness. [SPEAKER_02]: And I wonder, I wonder what we can do instead, or wonder what would feel better for you. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you know, I feel like what is standing out to me and what you said is, I agree with everything you said, first of all. [SPEAKER_01]: There is no one-size-fits-all approach. [SPEAKER_01]: And as a therapist, am I doing this collaboratively with the client?

17:42[SPEAKER_01]: Because it's what is attuned to this moment [SPEAKER_01]: am I trying to force something to happen that the client system isn't ready for yet? [SPEAKER_01]: Or was ready for? [SPEAKER_01]: But it's not now, you know, and there's so much about consent there. [SPEAKER_01]: And a tunement, again, because misattunement is one of the big barriers within therapy when the client doesn't feel attuned [SPEAKER_01]: re-enactment or re-experiencing of something that had been, they couldn't have integrated before because there was too much for them.

18:28[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that, you know, there's something really, really important about that fear they know of fear in the kind is in the drive this, see, right, because I guess the, probably the definition of trauma is being out of control. [SPEAKER_02]: how do we ensure that the client feels like they're the one in control of their healing perhaps? [SPEAKER_02]: Whilst at the same time, there's also feeling contained and held and where there might be suggestions that come of, or under what it would be like to experiment with this, but with the real emphasis on the client being able to notice and to gauge what feels right for [SPEAKER_01]: So something that we talked about before we started recording that I wanted to bring into this conversation is, well, first of all, the idea that being a helper as the help for the helper workbook is talking about.

19:31[SPEAKER_01]: is not only about therapists working with clients but all types of helping roles and professional roles as well as just personal roles that we are carrying out in our lives, volunteerism, passion projects, the ways that we care give people in our lives, [SPEAKER_01]: Anyone who is a helper has that helping identity can be impacted by compassion fatigue and like various formal. [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, as we were speaking about some of the other roles that you had in addition to being a therapist and making health.

20:19[SPEAKER_01]: And I think about people who are passionate about climate change. [SPEAKER_01]: you know, impacting, protecting the earth, helping the earth, what's going on right now. [SPEAKER_01]: People were passionate about nature, animals, you know, veganism, all the different ways that we can feel driven to make a difference. [SPEAKER_01]: And yet, oftentimes, it feels like the mythical pushing the stone up the mountain, you know? [SPEAKER_01]: So, can you say something about [SPEAKER_01]: how in those roles, in addition to, as therapists, how compassion, peteing and by Karis trauma can come into the picture?

21:02[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely. [SPEAKER_02]: So, what I think first of all, I just want to, I have that image is really in my mind about kind of pushing this kind of bold up the hill, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that's sometimes how do we feel that or how do we notice that? [SPEAKER_02]: How do we have [SPEAKER_02]: this self-awareness that says, oh, actually, I've ticked over to the point where if I continue in this way, I'm not going to be useful anymore.

21:26[SPEAKER_02]: You know, let alone looking after myself and making sure that I get my needs met and making sure that I also have a full filled and which life, I also might not be able to keep spinning all of these plates. [SPEAKER_02]: And having that kind of self-awareness of that is really, really important and it's probably like the main key to avoiding compassion fatigue and vicarious trauma and burnout, right, is having this kind of mindful self-awareness, but also because we're talking about compassion fatigue, but also having this compassion for self, like how can I [SPEAKER_02]: notice when it is that I just need to eat, I just need to drink, I need to hydrate, I need to rest and I think that was something that really showed up in the pandemic and also in a lot of world crises whereby [SPEAKER_02]: people are helping so much and doing so much that they forget to eat and they forget to drink and they forget to rest and so many therapists during the pandemic that I spoke to for example didn't take a holiday.

22:33[SPEAKER_02]: I mean they couldn't go away on holiday but they didn't take a break at home where they could just rest and just not work and not have that in their mind because it was [SPEAKER_02]: I guess they kind of just felt like they were on a bit of a treadmill of wanting to support people and feeling like that and kind of everything went out of the window. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's one of the first things that I kind of think about is this self-awareness how is it that you're going to keep pushing the holder up the hill.

23:09[SPEAKER_02]: having compassion for yourself and compassion for what you're doing as well. [SPEAKER_02]: So you asked me about compassion fatigue and for those people who are like, what is that? [SPEAKER_02]: It can be described as emotional exhaustion from prioritizing others needs or this well being above your own. [SPEAKER_02]: So I guess that's sort of what I'm talking about really is feeding everybody else but forgetting to feed yourself so that you just collapse.

23:37[SPEAKER_02]: And then by Kerry's trauma you also mentioned which tends to be having a response or having symptoms as though an event is actually happening to you even though it hasn't happened to you. [SPEAKER_02]: So for a therapist for example that might be having like nightmares around something that maybe a client has shared with you, but it isn't something that you've experienced yourself. [SPEAKER_02]: and I mentioned Bernard, which is also, I think it's really important to notice as well, and this isn't just about helping professionals who know certain, so many people in this busy hectic life feel burnt out, which is [SPEAKER_02]: I guess defined as kind of physical and emotion of exhaustion.

24:23[SPEAKER_02]: Usually caused by stress. [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I think it makes it sound very neat and tidy when we say it like that. [SPEAKER_01]: But it doesn't feel like that at all. [SPEAKER_02]: No, absolutely not. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And I do think this first thing is something about, you know, we hold, we hold this in our awareness [SPEAKER_02]: And we kind of have this like, oh, I need to do this for this person, I need to do this for this person, I need to do this and it's like, what would it like to add yourself to the list, you know, even if that was just like the smallest thing that you could do is to just add to yourself to kind of be fed watered and rested to the list at the very minimum, you know, which and I think there's [SPEAKER_02]: and times in world crisis and times such as the pandemic where just that just won't always happen.

25:18[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and I can remember during the pandemic, especially in the beginning, as feeling of, no, no, no, I can't stop. [SPEAKER_01]: I can't stop. [SPEAKER_01]: There's everyone needs, it wasn't even the fully [SPEAKER_01]: formed thought, but it was just like, no, no, no, it's not possible to stop right now. [SPEAKER_01]: I can't, I can't because everyone, I have to take care of everyone somehow. [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't sound right to myself when I say that out loud, but that's sort of what the drive was that I felt, and I know so many therapists felt.

25:53[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, at the time, some were calling the pandemic, [SPEAKER_01]: you know, a time of poly crisis because there wasn't just the COVID-19 virus and its effects that were the problem. [SPEAKER_01]: It was the the other things that were coming to people's attention that they hadn't really a lot of people had not really been aware of. [SPEAKER_01]: All of that, it was just like this big weight coming down, and for me, I can remember a time much earlier in my career where I had kind of a burnout crisis.

26:33[SPEAKER_01]: It was like around 2004 or five, so not very long into my time working with clients. [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember the same feeling, my supervisor saying, I think you should take a couple of days off, and I was like, oh no, [SPEAKER_01]: And, and I also felt like, I can't, I can't, the problem is so big, I have to help, and I feel a lot of compassion for myself, feeling such a burden of responsibility. [SPEAKER_01]: to help as if I was the only one who was doing anything, you know, and and I can think about how that relates to my own attachment and trauma history, you know, and sort of like the child who felt that way that I have to hold it all together somehow, you know, it's my if I don't keep this whole like family together somehow.

27:31[SPEAKER_01]: Not that anyone else thought that that was my job, but I, that was my reaction to the way it was and just how it's so isolating it takes you away from feeling connected with the earth with yourself with others that you're not alone to carry a burden. [SPEAKER_01]: You know that and many of us can do so much more if we realize that there are many of us and you know it's like that I'm alone and I have to save the world versus you know let's all Do what we can and it makes a difference what everyone is doing and the more we come together and realize we're not alone the better we all feel even if we're still tackling the same problem the problem didn't change but [SPEAKER_01]: It's like our relationship to it, ships when we feel less alone.

28:24[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I feel like it can be a really lonely profession, right? [SPEAKER_02]: In a sense, it was always with people, but not in a way that we're kind of taking care of rather than this feeling of kind of togetherness often. [SPEAKER_01]: We're a superacity. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I feel like obviously you might have supervision or there might be, you know, peers, but especially for those people in private practice, it can feel really isolating, [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that that, also one of the things that I organize is that there are pists social every month when we go out for a walk in the countryside and we have a meal afterwards in a cafe and we kind of come together and we don't really talk about work at all.

29:04[SPEAKER_02]: It's more to just spend time with colleagues, people within the profession and I just think [SPEAKER_02]: things like that are really important. [SPEAKER_02]: How do we get the sense of belonging and the sense of community that's so essential? [SPEAKER_02]: But so essential to us as humans, right? [SPEAKER_02]: But definitely essential for us in our work. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's interesting what you brought up about, you know, your past and how that comes in.

29:31[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's something that we explore in the workbook a little bit is, I remember when I first started my training, we were kind of asked, you know, to think about what's in our own history. [SPEAKER_02]: what kind of science we might work with and might not work with or what kind of presenting issues really. [SPEAKER_02]: We might find more difficult with regards to kind of the potential for count to transference when I would like have a reaction to the client based on our own history.

30:00[SPEAKER_02]: And one of the things that we mentioned in the book is about taking your own heat like we used to taking client history but taking our own history and noticing [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, noticing about our own past and what's come up for us and what's still around. [SPEAKER_02]: And even the present, what's going on in your present, what's happening now, and how are you feeling about things? [SPEAKER_02]: And so that you get a good sense of where you might come close together with what's going on for you, what feels like it's too close.

30:34[SPEAKER_02]: So what feels like it's too close? [SPEAKER_02]: too much at the moment or it's a little sort of brings you bring some of those memories that more to mind that feel difficult to cope with from the moment and not as something to kind of think, I'm terrible like I should be able to do this and that just to say okay to have that kind of compassion at hand on your shoulder that kind of says it's okay that you can't do everything it's okay that [SPEAKER_02]: You're good at some things and some things, they're just not for you and there'll be somebody else who they are right for.

31:11[SPEAKER_02]: Somebody else will be able to pick that up and kind of trusting in the community that there are things that you can do and and some things that you can leave for others and that being okay. [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a really compassionate perspective. [SPEAKER_01]: And I also, I know that so many people are like, I've been through XYZ and so I want to help people who've been through XYZ, which is great, and it's not to say, [SPEAKER_01]: You can't work with people who've been through X, Y, Z because you have, but it's more, I, I hear, and what you said, it's more like, it's okay to wait and take care of those parts of you first, so that then you can really share your healing, helping gifts with, [SPEAKER_01]: from your integrated embodied place rather than from the wounded place.

32:11[SPEAKER_01]: I want to say one of the hard things about that. [SPEAKER_01]: When I started, I was so in 2002, I was 31. [SPEAKER_01]: And I started in grass roots organization. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have my master's degree then it was a grass roots crisis intervention counseling sexual trauma hospital accompaniment hotline work and we did like crisis counseling in the office as well. [SPEAKER_01]: And it was more than like what coaching is now, but it wasn't therapy.

32:46[SPEAKER_01]: It was crisis intervention focused, but we're working with people at the moment and after when these things had just happened to them. [SPEAKER_01]: So it was very much a lot of witnessing very acute trauma. [SPEAKER_01]: And I wanted to understand exactly what you said, what are my issues, what are my, what should I know about counter-transference? [SPEAKER_01]: What's my history? [SPEAKER_01]: And I could not answer that question.

33:15[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like my family was fine. [SPEAKER_01]: I was loved. [SPEAKER_01]: You know, everything was good. [SPEAKER_01]: And I literally went to therapy. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm kind of laughing gently. [SPEAKER_01]: at myself, but but I'm sure other people can relate to this in some way. [SPEAKER_01]: I went to therapy and I literally said, I'm here to figure out what my issues are and the therapist was like, okay, well, what do you think could be some of your issues?

33:42[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, I don't know, I'm asking you, like I really didn't know it all. [SPEAKER_01]: And now the reason why it's funny is because you know, my adverse childhood experiences, [SPEAKER_01]: study score is a 10, like I have all the stuff, and it wasn't like I didn't have any memory of child had I just didn't have any memory of those things. [SPEAKER_01]: And so, and one hand, I'm feeling super driven to do something. [SPEAKER_01]: Like, this is my passion.

34:13[SPEAKER_01]: I have to help trauma survivors. [SPEAKER_01]: I just, I was like, [SPEAKER_01]: And I was really unaware of my own trauma history. [SPEAKER_01]: I did not feel like a trauma survivor. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't identify that way. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't identify as having any sexual trauma, which was not true. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have sexual trauma that I just didn't know. [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't, you know, it was disconnected. [SPEAKER_01]: So I say that with compassion for my younger self who just cared so much.

34:44[SPEAKER_01]: And something was resonating with me. [SPEAKER_01]: are in this field and they do feel really passionate about the work, but they don't know why they're so driven to do it and they don't think they have any, you know, significant history to, to could be concerned about how can people. [SPEAKER_01]: identify that. [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I eventually got there through long, long-term therapy, but do you have any thoughts or ideas or anything that might be in the book about how people can kind of begin to recognize that something is hitting too close to home even if they don't really know what it's getting close to?

35:28[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I guess maybe we don't always know as well, [SPEAKER_02]: I guess what I mean by that is my dissociated or it might be when we were too young to remember I guess in the situation like you're describing or in the situation like I just mentioned, it might be simply having awareness of yourself and noticing how [SPEAKER_02]: how you respond to clients, how you respond to the work, how you feel, keeping an eye on what exhaust you, what clients may be, what you come away from certain clients feeling and what happens maybe in your body, what happens in your emotions, what's happening [SPEAKER_02]: just some people in their mind.

36:25[SPEAKER_02]: And I guess what I mean by that is keeping an eye on what overwhelms you, and maybe you don't necessarily need to know the why, but kind of way to saying, just what it is, and then so that that means that you have that awareness, [SPEAKER_02]: And it might, again, it might not mean that you don't work in that area of all with that client or with that presenting issue. [SPEAKER_02]: What it might mean is that you think, okay, well, how can I bolster myself?

36:51[SPEAKER_02]: Now I've got this information that x, y, and z that make me feel abancy. [SPEAKER_02]: That's like, then how do I bolster myself in this work in order to do that? [SPEAKER_02]: And it might be, well, [SPEAKER_02]: I take on, I work with clients with X, Y, and Z less, or it might be, I time them. [SPEAKER_02]: I'd better deal with that in the morning, rather than before I go to bed. [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to see if those clients second work with those in the morning.

37:22[SPEAKER_02]: it might be, I have a ritual before I work with them and after I work with them, it might be making sure that you have moments where you hold dual awareness by that I mean having awareness of what's happening within your body. [SPEAKER_02]: What's happening externally with the client at the same time so that you can maintain awareness of yourself in the session as well as the client so that all of your focus isn't going on the client and then afterwards you come out of it and like Oh goodness, I feel overwhelmed so that when you have that awareness you're able to kind of notice or I'm feeling my [SPEAKER_02]: And heart beat faster or I'm able to say, feel, will you do that something and you're able to kind of take a moment to do whatever it is that helps you to feel karma, whether it's having a wiggle of your toes or [SPEAKER_02]: But things like that, I think, something around having awareness of how you feel with certain things and then thinking about how you boast to yourself with compassion.

38:37[SPEAKER_01]: That's beautiful. [SPEAKER_01]: I agree. [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things I love about this book is it's talking about a lot of things like things that are somatic, sensory, movement oriented, [SPEAKER_01]: you know, all the levels of awareness and and yet there's also a maybe this is kind of what you mean about the straightforward, you know, clear way that but that is good at organizing and explaining this information that there are like ways to write like, okay, client was at 90 [SPEAKER_01]: logical and that can I feel that could be so organizing to our systems too when we do feel overwhelmed or we get flooded just to, you know, break it down into more just tighter, more compartmentalized in a way, like the structure of this.

39:36[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. [SPEAKER_01]: The last thing I would love to touch on before we have to wrap up is it's a big one, but I feel very significant in relevant right now. [SPEAKER_01]: It just feels very present for me even. [SPEAKER_01]: not even for me right now in this time that you know there's like during the pandemic a lot of a people and chaos is happening in our political systems and in kind of the world political [SPEAKER_01]: direction, and so as we sit with clients, and we are holding space for them, we're also living in the same experience, you know, the things that we see challenges to free speech, for example, in my country right now.

40:31[SPEAKER_01]: as I'm here talking with you on this podcast, you know, it can feel really scary and then to hold space for people who are feeling the same way. [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any thoughts about how we can as during the pandemic kind of do our best to be with what we're experiencing and be [SPEAKER_02]: I guess one of the things that's coming up for me is from what you're saying is, I think there's something about acknowledging the seriousness of what of it.

41:13[SPEAKER_02]: Did I think is also probably a shim problem, common sense, but also important, something about acknowledging the seriousness without minimising of what's happening and what you feel. [SPEAKER_02]: I guess my hope in saying the word series is that it's taken also seriously. [SPEAKER_02]: There's something about, okay, I'm going to take this seriously. [SPEAKER_02]: And I guess that might be done in different ways. [SPEAKER_02]: So there's sort of two things that we want to talk about.

41:39[SPEAKER_02]: One is this kind of how the therapist of the health or what we're talking about, but it takes it seriously for them. [SPEAKER_02]: So that they're able to really recognize how they're affected by this and what's happening for them and to take that effect seriously so that they're able to look after themselves and get what they need in order to Yeah, in order to get what they needed that and that might be all kinds of things [SPEAKER_02]: it might be allowing yourself to sit in a, you might have 50 minute, the therapy hour for yourself, where you sit with yourself, you might have therapy, you might do all kinds of things that honour the seriousness of this, that offers you compassion and care.

42:24[SPEAKER_02]: Tony Morrison, I like this Tony Morrison quote that I think is in the book that says it's not possible to constantly hone in on the crisis. [SPEAKER_02]: You have to have the love and you have to have the magic that's also life. [SPEAKER_02]: So there's something about holding a seriousness but also holding the seriousness of [SPEAKER_02]: the joy and the wonder of the world at the same time. [SPEAKER_02]: And then I think when it comes to being with the client, there's something about when you've kind of held and contained and shown yourself compassion, it becomes much easier than to sit with somebody else, right?

43:02[SPEAKER_02]: Because otherwise, [SPEAKER_02]: the compassion for you doesn't come in right so I don't know but what about me. [SPEAKER_02]: We've dealt with me, looked after me, I'm okay, I can cope in. [SPEAKER_02]: And so there's something about then being grounded with the client and noticing what's happening for them and their experience. [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that sometimes even though we can be experiencing something very similar, I think it's also probably important to notice that their experience of it might be very different.

43:34[SPEAKER_02]: and in that same way, not to have an assumption that their experience a bit is the same. [SPEAKER_02]: Or is what we expected it to be? [SPEAKER_02]: There was, so for example, there was a case study, I think, that I was reading about where somebody was working with a sciencey, because in my [SPEAKER_02]: assumption that they would want to talk about their experience in a war zone and actually what they wanted to talk about was their girlfriend and how they were having all this part of their girlfriend and all this.

44:09[SPEAKER_02]: So there's something about also letting the client be the client within this crisis. [SPEAKER_02]: crisis and people that we have in the world. [SPEAKER_02]: So there's something about that about kind of having this separation between this what you feel about something and there's also what the client deals and sometimes they might be the same and sometimes they might be different and that's that's okay. [SPEAKER_02]: And then I also think that within the conversation sometimes [SPEAKER_02]: while we want this feeling of community and belonging, especially within these sense of crises.

44:43[SPEAKER_02]: We also, I think, sometimes in the therapy room, need the person to be able to express themselves like what's happening for them, that may or may not be different. [SPEAKER_02]: So there's something about offering this also as well as a sense of togetherness, a sense of separateness, whereby [SPEAKER_02]: when they're talking about something, it might be some self-talk that kind of says, this is their experience, this is different to my experience or something along those why, maybe.

45:14[SPEAKER_02]: I guess I was also thinking about, um, there's all sorts of things as well about, like news intake and just all of these things that we feel a little media intake, [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, we feel like, yeah, and with social media, it's like, you can be looking at a fluffy bunny and then looking at a war zone and then looking at, you know, it's just this barrage on one of the dancing, oh my goodness, and it's the different, the start kind of contrast that's almost, for me, anyway, most disrespecting, it's like a goodness, all these different things.

45:45[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that there's something really important about that, I mean, [SPEAKER_02]: I think we're speaking the book about how we take in this information as well, like, you know, if we see something or watch a video or something, there's probably more like in us of getting by carries the traumatized by something than reading it. [SPEAKER_02]: So this and this might be something about or how often do I read the news. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I want to be informed, but I also don't want to be, I don't want to get by carry of trauma, because that's not going to leave me present and grounds are unable to help or to do something about it.

46:18[SPEAKER_02]: So how can I make sure that I can be regulated in a sense of, when I say regulated, I don't mean not angry or not sad or not all of those things, but I guess I mean able to feel those things and also feel my feet at the same time. [SPEAKER_02]: And that might be deciding when, again, what time of day feels right to read the news or and how I look at the news or read the news or listen to the news. [SPEAKER_02]: It's taken in this information.

46:49[SPEAKER_02]: And I guess the same with social media, you know, with some people, with clients, and sometimes I might say, because on like things like Instagram, you can just look at your friends. [SPEAKER_02]: It was just something about what would it be like to just look at your friends. [SPEAKER_02]: And it doesn't mean that you're... [SPEAKER_02]: not going to look at the news, but it means that you're in control of when you do. [SPEAKER_02]: You can make that more on purpose, more intentional, rather than gosh, shouldn't we this thing that I just feel completely overwhelmed by and now I've got to go into a session with a client, and I can think about is this war zone image.

47:29[SPEAKER_02]: So there's something about that too, I think. [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, thank you. [SPEAKER_01]: That was exactly what I was looking for a lot of different ways to think about how we can help ourselves have capacity to be the helpers that we want to be without losing. [SPEAKER_01]: who we are, or overriding how we're feeling in the experience of, of doing helping work, whether again, paid or unpaid. [SPEAKER_01]: So much to think about, and so much valuable information in this book, so I do want to say, for those who are listening that there's a large, [SPEAKER_01]: section of the book that is about self-care during shared community slash world crises.

48:18[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, at this political time and in the future, that will be so valuable because there are always our tragedies and painful things happening as we move through life at every level, [SPEAKER_01]: NASA, thank you so much for being my guest on therapy chat today. [SPEAKER_01]: I really really enjoyed this conversation. [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so much for having me. [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, Laura, it's been really... we've been talking about some really difficult hard things.

48:54[SPEAKER_02]: And at the same time, it's also really... [SPEAKER_02]: really lovely to be here with you and to do that right to give it the time and space that deserves in it needs. [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. [SPEAKER_01]: And so where can people find what you're doing, what the best doing, and the book, where do you have a some places to lead us to online that I can, everyone will hear, but I'll also put this in the [SPEAKER_02]: The Health for the Help Workbook is published by www.norton and I reckon if you google www.norton the help for the help of workbook, you'll see where it's available.

49:35[SPEAKER_02]: Hopefully it's also available in your local library and if it's not, you could maybe mention it because it would be great for it to be [SPEAKER_02]: through the available to people. [SPEAKER_02]: The bet is has the training, the somatic trauma therapy training, which, and you can find that at somatictraumotherapy.com. [SPEAKER_02]: You can find me at wildandwellbeing.com. [SPEAKER_02]: And also on my Instagram, I tend to share some things, [SPEAKER_02]: Again, always with that caveat of, I can notice what's right for you and adapt to everything, but that's at wild and well-being.

50:19[SPEAKER_01]: Beautiful. [SPEAKER_01]: And I heard you about the cards. [SPEAKER_01]: I'm definitely going to be checking those out too. [SPEAKER_01]: I can't wait. [SPEAKER_01]: I know that that will be something I want to use in my work too. [SPEAKER_01]: So Vanessa, thank you again for spending time with me today on therapy chat. [SPEAKER_02]: Good, I really hope so. [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much.