#294: Developing Your Signature Style

0:00Emma You're listening to the Beautiful Mess podcast your cozy comfort listen. I'm your host, Emma Chapman. Elsie And I'm your host, Elsie Larson. Emma And this week we're talking about how to develop your Creative Palette and style without being derivative. This is a subject that applies across different creative practices, from art to writing and even how you dress or decorate your home. And also, at the end of the episode, we're going to have a book report.

0:09Elsie Yes, this entire episode is based around a wonderful listener question. It is from Haley, so I'm going to read it to get us started. She says, I always want to be creative and love making art. I get frustrated, though, because I seem to be stuck in a loop of seeing something I like on Pinterest and then recreating it. I feel like I can't figure out how to make something original. When I see something I like on Pinterest, I can't get it on my head and I just remake it. How do you gather inspiration without imitation?

0:15So I love this subject. Yeah, I think that it's so interesting, and I do think it's like a very common challenge in, like, early development of any kind of creative process, like, no one wants to be derivative, like no one wants to be a copycat. But in this episode, we're gonna make the case why you kind of have to. It's a stepping stone to get where you want to go. It's not where you're going to end. It's not where you're going to land on. It's one step in the process of learning your style.

0:20Emma Yeah, we're going to flip a script on it. Instead of being like, I'm a copycat, it's like, I'm a fan girl. Elsie Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. And I should shout out, I love Austin cleons. You know, we saw him at a conference last year, and it has he was so, was so cute, and I followed his newsletter ever since, and he has that book, I'm sure you've heard of it, steal, like an artist, and it is such a great little it's kind of a pep talk, like, I don't even feel like it's like a book, it's like a it's a pep It's a little, yeah, little talking pep talk for you. If you are more interested in the subject, I do recommend it, because it kind of just consolidates all the great quotes. There's a lot of, like, Picasso quotes, and just everyone through history kind of knows, like, not just Andy Warhol, other people too. You kind of have to copy, like, it's part of creating art, and it's not always a bad thing. So I think that share, I don't know, we'll talk, we'll talk more about it, but yeah, I think that when I was younger, I first started my blog, I wanted everything I did to be completely original, and it was kind of a trap, because I didn't let myself try many things I was

0:33interested in, because someone else was already doing it well. And I think that that's really sad. Emma I actually just really liked her question too, because I feel like sometimes people are nervous to admit that they want to make something they've seen, yeah, like, just even saying that, a lot of people feel like, oh, I should never, never admit that, even though the truth is, we all feel that way. We every time I see a beautiful piece of art of some kind, I would love to make it, you know, like, that's kind of what it means to be a fan. So, you know, it's a really normal starting place. And I just like that. She was just like, here's the thing, you know, it's like, yeah, exactly Yes. Me too, all of us, yes. Okay, so we're kind of going to go through. It's basically a three step process, yeah, simple, easy, just three steps, and then you will have your own signature style.

0:43Elsie And this applies to art, writing, creating content, dressing yourself, any creative work you want to do on this planet, this will apply to you, but we'll probably tell mostly stories from our own development. So maybe, like writing our novels, and I could, I can talk about art too, but yeah, there's maybe blogging too, but yeah, there's all kinds of, I kind of think it applies to everything, like, it touches every part of creativity. Emma Yes, it does. It's just like, I feel like it's like, one of those snowball things where it's like, you start going with it, and then you find out, as it starts rolling down the hill and getting, like, bigger and bigger and beyond you, you're like, oh, it just supplies everything. I was trying to just have my own painting style, but all of a sudden I'm like, looking at my closet differently, and my kids closet differently, and my decorating my house, or like, the way I cook and the way I present food if I have guests over, you know, whatever, whatever you do in your life. These are things I do.

0:56Elsie I'm actually going to use painting as more an example today, because this season right now, I'm in the process of trying to tweak my style and kind of take it in a new direction. And so I have been doing a lot of this stuff. So I think if you sit down and you you sit down, you have your blank canvas, you put your paints on your palette, you have your water, you have your brushes, and you expect for yourself on the first try to just be able to. Just like, conjure something original like that is it might happen. I mean, you like, you can put paint on the canvas and just see what comes out. Like you, you might find something you love. But for me, more often, it is a longer process than that. And it like, it doesn't just take one step. It's not just like, I want to change my style. Poof, my style has changed. It's a development process that I have to go through. I want to start off by saying, don't be mad at yourself if you can't live up to your own taste on your first try, because that is like a tale as old as time. We all have that problem, and the reason you're disappointed in the outcome is because you do have good taste, and

1:08eventually you will be able to live up to that taste. Emma And I also think it makes me think about, like, sometimes you'll see, like, a favorite artist, like maybe a great filmmaker, or something, them have an interview, and they're like, this film is garbage. I'm doing a fake cigarette right now, total garbage. I hate it. And you're like, wow, I thought this was like, kind of like, the most amazing thing they've made in their career so far. And it's because even for them, even for people who are professionals, or you might look up to or have won awards, amazing awards out in the world, they have the same thing where their taste, they're like, not quite caught up to their taste yet.

1:16And so it's like, you're always chasing that. And so I would kind of say, try to be okay with that and enjoy that. Try to just, you know, it's uncomfortable, but like, just know that that's not a bad thing. And so maybe, like, you know, chill out a little bit because the journey is like, what you're going to be on until you die. So you should try to enjoy it, if you can't. Elsie Yes, okay, so yeah, we're building with Legos here, and each project is one Lego brick, and you cannot build your Lego Castle without starting with one brick. Yeah, sorry. Okay, so step one, develop your taste. Be a fan, appreciate art. So this is something early in my career. I don't know what to call it, early in blogging.

1:25Emma I don't like that you're laughing saying career. Elsie My early career was, like, not really a career. It was a little bit like, it was a weird origin story. So I think early on, I felt like I was, like, afraid to be like, a big fan in public, because for one, I like, felt like, if I showed my appreciation, then people would, like, compare my work to that. And I mean, it's definitely like that with writing, where it's like, you say, you like, say, like, my favorite writers are these three people. And then you, like, hold out your manuscript, and you're like, Oh.

1:33Emma It's scary. You're telling me it's not like, Barbara King Grover, oh. Elsie Yeah, it's like, a little little pat on the shoulder, yeah, um, but yeah, I think that a big part of developing your palette is being a fan and appreciating art and consuming as much of it as you can. So whatever your project, be a voracious fan of that thing. And if it's reading, read like all over the different library sections, don't just stay in one. I think that's a very, very important part of growing and if it's art, you know, don't just stay, like, only focused on your favorite artist. Study 10, like, have 10 favorite artists. I think that, like, the more you can expand your fandom, you're, like, actually growing your taste on the inside at the same time.

1:43Emma In this phase two, I would say, I think you're going to probably gravitate towards becoming a fan of the types of art or work or things that you're interested in yourself. But I would also encourage you to push yourself to be a fan and grow your taste in areas that you have no intention of copying. Like, you know, for example, I do like fashion, and I wear clothes every day, but I don't really aspire to be a fashion designer. I don't really aspire to be going to New York for a Fashion Week. Like, that's not really something I've ever been been on my radar. But I still think going to the library and going to the fashion section reading some books or like, finding like, Oh, I love Alexander McQueen. Oh, I love, like, that's cool. That's a cool thing to do, and you should do it. Find your favorite, you know, designer, your favorite painter, a few favorite musicians, favorite filmmakers. Like, it's great to, you know, spread yourself out across all these different creative areas, if nothing else. Like, this is truly just about appreciating great art. That's, that's the goal, and one of the goals, anyway, in this step. So yes, you

1:55know, you want to be a writer. Yes, read a lot, but also, love films, love music, love fashion, love photography, love painting. You know, whatever. It doesn't have to be all those things. But, like, pick more than just your field. Elsie Yeah, I think that's really good. And if you want to be a. A like, a tactile person like me. You can start a journal for this. You can start a journal for anything you really can't No one's stopping you a journal of just like art I love. You could write on the front of it, inspiration, you know, anything like that. And just collect, collect, collect, you know, like, write in it, your playlist. Write in it, what movies you want to see.

2:03And I think to Emma's point, it's true that, like, you might get the greatest idea for a novel from a film or a song and like it, yeah, the categories definitely touch each other and overlap. Emma Or you might end up writing a character who is a musician or a fashion designer or whatever, and now you have some appreciation of that field. You know, it all bleeds together, but mainly it's just having an appreciation for beautiful, interesting things that are out there in the world, which I think is a worthwhile pursuit in and of itself.

2:10Elsie Yeah, I agree. All right. Step two is make derivative work on purpose. Yeah, this is so important, and you're going to keep doing so until you start to see your own style emerge, and it will. I remember, in like, the covid days, I was making replica paintings of like, fame, like I was literally trying to copy exactly a Grandma Moses painting, and I think a Matisse painting, I can't remember anymore, yeah, I think it was a Matisse painting. Anyway, I was just copying them. It was not to show. It was for learning. It was for the education of it. And I've heard this advice all over different types of creative work. I think, well, with my husband, he is musician. He tells me, everyone who starts songwriting has an early phase where they are just like a blatant copycat of whatever their favorite band is at that time. And that's normal. You hope you won't get famous for that a few people in life do, but you know, most people don't. Most people, it's like, you recognize someone's kind of they're learning. And it's not a shameful thing to make derivative work early in your learning process. It's totally normal, and I think it's good. I

2:22will defend it, because I think that it's a way to self teach. You know, copying something you admire is just more exciting than copying something you don't admire. Emma Yeah, and I'll say too in this step, you know, for the most part, 99% of the time, let's say that this is not the step where you stop and then start selling your word. This is the step where you're learning and also, like you can kind of stop at this step if you never plan to sell your work. So again, you know, let's say fashion. I was sick on that for some reason I don't know if I'm like, never going to sell fashion. I don't want to make it, to sell it on Etsy. I don't want to, you know, that's not my inspiration. Then I'm like, I can forever just be trying to put together outfits, like the ones I see on Pinterest or my favorite designer or whatever, I can just be derivative forever, if it's just for me. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just fine. It's just being a fan forever. If you want to become an artist who has their own point of view, and especially if you want to sell your work, you're going to need to move to step three. But this

2:34step two is, can be the finish line if you don't really have any aspirations beyond it. Elsie True, that's fine. Every single time I go to a flea market, I see a Bob Ross style painting, yeah. And it's like, there's nothing wrong with all these Bob Ross people. Like, I imagine the like, I don't know, the Linda's and the Karens who made these paintings in the 80s in their living room with their TV on. And I think it's great, yeah, and they probably had some fun from Bob Ross.

2:40Emma You probably had so much fun. He's, like, so fun to watch. Elsie Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got the vibe. Oh, yeah, um. And yeah, I've heard a lot of people say, Okay, so like, one of my favorite painters who, like, I got a lot out of this in my 20s, Jim Hauser, do you remember him? Yes, this book that I was obsessed with. So anyway, he had this quote. It said, like, give away your first 100 paintings. I think that that's like, a good way to think of it. If you want to become commercially viable, you want to become an expert, you want to become a professional, then you should be okay with either tossing to the side or doing it just for fun. I think in writing, fan fiction is pretty popular. A lot of people get their start, especially younger people, their first book is fan fiction that I think it's a great way to learn, because you don't have to build your own world as deeply you kind of have, like this diving board to jump off from.

2:52Emma And you know you can't sell it, so it kind of takes that pressure off. Elsie Yeah, you know you're not gonna make money from it. You're just doing it for fun. And I think that things like that, that is great advice. So, yeah, I think that you should embrace it, and I think you should do it even more. Just know that this isn't this is one step. This is not the final destination. Obviously, like, copying is bad when you're passing it off as your own work, you know, like and you're pretending to be a professional, but it's not bad when you're in an education phase at all. So yep. Okay, you want to say step three.

3:01Emma So we've made a lot of derivative work, so now we're on to step three, which is to keep developing, keep growing, keep making To infinity and beyond. I also think this is the time. Another thing I would say is like, mash it up. So now it's like, take two different artists that you've been making derivative work from, and try to mash them together and like something you like about, you know, like, that's sort of what a lot of art is. Elsie Pick something with some contrast, like, pick, don't pick, like, two bands that sound kind of alike, pick two bands that sound different, and mix those two things together.

3:10Emma Hopefully this will be kind of easy for you if you've done step one and two, because you're a fan of lot of different things, and you're familiar with so many different things, different styles, different even disciplines. So it's going to be easier for you to do this kind of mashing up, trying things phase and also during Step two, while you're making all that derivative work, you probably discovered things that you enjoyed about the process. Oh, I really loved painting with these types of brushes. Oh, I really loved writing in first person. Oh, I really love, you know, whatever. So now you kind of have a better understanding of what you like, what you might be good at, what you might be bad at, what you could improve on that is important to you, what you don't need to improve on, because you're never going to do it again like you kind again. Like you kind of have a sense of those things, and so you can use that in your tool belt as you start to mash up different things, different ideas you might have. I almost feel like step three in many ways, like just kind of naturally happens over time. Like you might think, oh, I'll

3:22just be a copycat forever if I copy people. But it's like, I really think if you're doing that and you're a fan of lots of different things, it just starts to happen. It just kind of starts to seep into your work where you're like, Well, I was imitating Grandma Moses, but I was also thinking about this, like Warhol painting and this, like Cezanne painting. And then I just thought, you know, what if I and that's just kind of how it goes, like, it's just sort of like, becomes this. It's like yours. Your brain just starts to evolve because you're swimming and all these different things all the time. So it'll just kind of happen.

3:28Elsie Yeah, and I think be generous, citing your influences, praising your influences. I don't think it's ever cute to be like to pretend like something came out of nothing. Emma It's not cute. Elsie I have this little quote on my Pinterest, and a look at it every day that says, like, I'm a museum of everything I've loved. And I think that's such a great way to look at art and creativity in general, that for our whole lives, we're basically like this little pin board, and we're just pinning more things on every day to ourself, and then we move forward. And, you know, like when I was in fourth grade, my favorite novel was Jurassic Park, like that will always be pinned on me. You know, that will always be one little part, and it will never leave me my entire life. And you know what I mean? Like the books you love in different parts of your life, the art the museum visits, the songs that you listened to 100 times when you were going through a breakup or a sad time or a loss, or, you know, yeah, the ways you celebrate, like, just all of those things. So no one, I don't know. So that my point is we're all going to be unique just by

3:43living different lives. Emma Having different experiences, having different influences, being a fan of so many different things, you'll never meet another person who's a fan of exactly all the same things you are, unless you only have, like, two things you like, it's true. So if you have 100 and you're never going to meet someone who's like, I love Alexander McQueen and the Muppets. Elsie Yeah, that's my sister. That's me. No, I think it's very special. So yeah, hopefully this was helpful for Haley and for anyone who gets a little bit in your head about creativity, like, just keep making more.

3:52Keep going. Like, don't stop yourself. Don't beat yourself up when you're new to something like, you're going, you're going to make things inspired by other people. And like, so did Picasso honestly, like, so I think that, I think it's good to know, I think it's good to like, embrace it, and I don't know, do it even harder. Emma Yeah and it's just feedback, you know? So if you're like, at the point where you feel like you have something original, and maybe you're offering it for sale, and you're getting a lot of feedback, that is that looks exactly. Like, this artist, that's feedback that you should maybe take in and be like, Oh, maybe I'm not quite there. Let's go back to, you know, mashing things up, trying to find my style again. It doesn't mean like you're a bad person and you should never make art again. No, it doesn't mean that it's just feedback of like, maybe you're not quite there. Maybe, you know, people are seeing it, you know, where it's too similar to some of your heroes. So, yeah, go back to the drawing board. No big deal, yeah, for sure.

4:05Elsie And hopefully, with any luck, you know, eventually you're gonna be you're gonna hear people saying, Oh, this reminds me of and they'll say something that makes you, like, happy and proud. But is also surprising. It's like, not someone you were trying to copy. It's just someone you like in the world. Emma Yeah, thank you. Wow. Never thought of that, but that's wonderful. Yeah, those are, like, the best compliments. Elsie I think you know that you're doing good work when you start getting feedback and when people are saying it reminds me of they're saying something different each time. I think that's a good litmus test.

4:15Emma People are like, you copied this, and they say five different things that it's like, Ah, that's good. Like, you're actually in the phase where this is probably pretty original, because they can't even put their finger on or you're getting different people saying, different artists, different things. Yes, good sign. Elsie Whoo, okay, we have a topic of discussion from Corey. Oh, it's a book question. You know, we love the book question. Emma I love this question. I like wrote Corey back right away when I saw it from the email box, which, if you ever get an email from me, a lot of times, I'm not replying to the one you sent, because we get sent them in bulk. So it probably feels like out of the blue. It's just like random, like, hello, I'm answering a question that you maybe sent me two weeks ago.

4:27Elsie I only write back to the ones that are very specific, niche questions that are only for me, and then the rest of the questions I usually save for the podcast. Emma Mine's clearly random. Anyway, okay, Corey says I've had a book idea bouncing around my brain for about six years. Recently, the characters have become so vivid that it feels like the moment to actually write the thing in my imagination. I'm already casting the Netflix series, but I also know the first thing most people write is rarely their best. So do I spend this year learning to write in quotes, on something else and save this good idea for later, or do I just go all in on the story that refuses to leave my head?

4:36Elsie Okay, I think we have good advice for this. Yeah, do you want to go first? Tell us. I hope so. Tell us what you responded to, Corey. Emma I was like, write the idea for sure. Because I was like, Corey, you're right. Usually people's first book isn't very good, and that is true. I'm not going to sugarcoat it for you. Sometimes it's not true, but most of the time it is true. It's not very good, but I lied, yeah, sometimes it's true, sometimes it's great, yeah.

4:43But mainly I think, like, that's besides the point. I am kind of of the belief, and this is very woo, woo. But when ideas come to us, it is just our job to bring them into the world, and maybe they're good, maybe they it comes out and it's not great. Maybe you can sell it and it's best selling and it's Twilight. Maybe it's something that you just show a couple friends and they're like, Oh, neat hobby, you know, like, whatever. It doesn't really matter. That part is like, it's a thing, and you'll have to face it, but I think it's besides the point, because I kind of think the whole thing is the journey, and this idea clearly won't leave her head. So she should write it, and I hope it turns out amazing. I bet it'll turn out pretty good, probably better than she thinks. But I don't think you should like practice writing something else. If you want to practice, like exercises, that's great. Like, if you're like, I'm reading a writer. Like, I'm reading a writing book and I'm doing like little exercises from the book, great, but I think, like, you've got this fully formed idea what a gift. Write it, yeah?

4:54Elsie Like, worst case scenario, it turns out bad, and you can rewrite it later. Emma Yeah. Editing is easy. Elsie I have literally done that. And I like, I Okay. So first of all, to validate you. Six years is long time. You have to do it. You have to do it. Like, listen to big sister. You have to, like, I don't think this is really even optional. And when you're at the point where the characters feel real to you, like, you have to, so just like, open up a Word document and start writing. And I think that the fear and the advice that like your first novel is not going to be good. I think that it keeps a lot of people from writing a first novel. And yeah, it might be true. It might it might break your heart a little, but like having recently had that heartbreak myself. I promise you, it's worth it. It's not that big of a deal. It's totally recoverable. We just, you know, and I'm glad I did it, and I'm glad I used my best idea first. I think you should. I think that that's sort of like how you invite more ideas in the future, is like always using the one like you. Can't not do this. So I think you know what you have to do. Corey, write us back in a month or two and tell us

5:09you've started, and tell us how it's going, and we will be cheering you on. And for anyone who wants to know if it's worth it to write a novel, even though it might be bad, it's worth it, like I promise you, it's so worth it, and you don't have to do you can do a practice novel if you want. I've heard people that make a case for this. Emma Especially if you don't really have an idea. Elsie It doesn't really matter what you write first. I don't think, like, just write something if you love it, you'll probably still love it later. You can fix a lot of things in editing. Editing is magical. Like, I did not know that before I started, like, it's not just writing a first draft. Like the editing is kind of where the magic happens, and it's wonderful. And I think that I don't know, I just hate that so many people walk around with like, stories inside of them, but they're not, like, willing to, like, take the risk of it being bad.

5:21Emma Just let it be whatever it is. Don't worry about it. It just doesn't really matter. There's no way to know. So why even you know worry about it's like having regret about something you can't change. It's like, well, you can walk around thinking about that every single day if you want. But I would point out that's maybe not going to like, help you live your life so you just move forward, you know. And if you want to write, just write. And maybe you'll write Twilight, and maybe you'll write a bunch of books that you just very enjoyed writing. And that's fine, because what else you got to do with your time? You know? Like, just, it's fun to do things that you enjoy. Why not? Why does it matter if it turns out a mate, like, what's, what is this? You know, I just think it's that there's a lot of marketing for certain books where it's like, this is their debut, and they won the Pulitzer, and that's great, cool marketing that makes me want to read a book if I heard that. But that's marketing, okay, you don't need to worry about that. That's just like, how they sell us stuff, like, you can just write and enjoy it. That's like, what it is.

5:33Elsie Yeah, it's magical. Yeah, you just, you just got to do it, and it takes away the fear. Like, once you've done it, once, like, I have no fear for the future. I have no fear for my next book being a flop anymore, which is so great, like, I don't care. And it, like, it like it has no power over me anymore. Yeah, so I think that's a wonderful thing that you have ahead of you too. Emma And for Cory especially, I think too, it's like, it's a lot easier to write when you're inspired. So, and I still think if you want to write a practice novel, great, go for it.

5:41Elsie But still do a topic you're obsessed with. I think, yeah, you should be obsessed with your own topic. You have to. Emma I think it's hard to write something you're not obsessed with. I think it would be a bit of a drag. And it's like, Well, I think the whole point is to enjoy writing so, and hopefully you have something in the end that you can show, but I think the point was to enjoy it. So I kind of have to write stuff that I'm interested in.

5:48Elsie Okay, beautiful. Okay. So we have book report. Okay, I'm just gonna be honest, I'm having a really bad reading month. I started three different books and I don't have anything to report on, so I'm just gonna toss it to Emma and let her report. I have some months too. Emma I feel like I'm either, like, in a book and I'm like, so into it, or I'm like, I just started two different ones and I wasn't sure about them, and then I, you know now I'm like, trying another one.

5:55Elsie I don't know, but I know I'm spinning out when I just keep starting things. And that happens to me, I do that. Emma Yeah, okay, well, my book report is I just finished, State of Wonder. Elsie Sorry, it's one of my favorite books, I'm so happy. Emma Yeah, and well, in I think this is maybe the first, I'm thinking, I think it might be the first from the stash of 40 books you gave me for my 40th birthday, because this was in the stash. Elsie That was the only one I told you when I gave it to you. That was the only one that was really for me, and all the rest of them were from, like, the email list and the podcast list.

6:08Emma To be honest, I didn't even remember that. I don't know why. I guess it was in there somewhere. Because I was like, this will be the first one. Elsie Because I've already forced you to read a lot of my favorite books. Yeah, this was one of the ones that was still lingering. Emma So, yeah, we do that too. This is only the second Anne Patchett that I've ever read. I don't know how this is. You know, there's so many great books in the world, and I feel, I feel like I've read lots of great books, but also, there's still so many more. You know, that's the great thing about reading. But anyway, this was only my second hand hatchet. I also read Tom lake. So this was my second state of wonder.

6:19This will have spoilers. So this has been out for like, more than 10 years, but still, if you haven't read state of wonder and you want to and you don't want spoilers, don't listen to this part, just skip ahead. So anyway, I loved this book. I thought it was super inspiring and so fun to read. It is very literary. So Anne Patrick's a beautiful, beautiful writer. Most of this book takes place in the Amazon or the city near the Amazon. Yeah, so it's very atmospheric. It's got a lot of environment. And if you're like, Well, what is the book like? What's the genre? It's like, well, it's literary. It's a literary book. But also it is kind of science fiction. We're dealing with scientists who are studying a tribe in the Amazon, because the women in the tribe can have children up until they die. So they can have children in their 50s, 60s, 70s. And so the scientists are studying them, hoping to replicate that for all women, so that women don't have to so that they could have children later in life, if that's what they want to choose. So that's sort of the premise.

6:29And the book starts with a death. A scientist has gone down there, and he's died, and so someone else has dispatched another scientist to go find out what happened to him. There's not a lot of details around it, maybe get his body, or at least get any personal items for his family, and to also check in on the scientists who are down there developing this drug. Because it's taking a long, long time, as science often does. So anyway, that's sort of what happens. I didn't know where we were going to go with it. I was like, oh, and pageant, I'm sure it'll just be beautiful, and I'll be reading these beautiful descriptions of the Amazon and that'll be fun. But then the plot gets wild. So these are the spoilers. So the very old doctor who's down there studying she's 70 or like 73 she's pregnant, and she gives birth during the book. And then the book opens with that scientist who dies. His name is Anders, and you find out later that he's not dead, and they retrieve him from a neighboring tribe. That's like, cannibals. Yeah, there's cannibals. There's a 70 year old having a baby. There's a dead man who's alive. It's crazy. So the plot

6:40is actually like, wild, like, you know, if this was poorly written, it would be an insane soap opera, but it is so beautifully written. It's this literary work for man Paget. So it's just a lot of fun. And there's an Anaconda, there's, you know, just crazy, lots and lots of bugs, lots and lots of just madness, really. And it's really beautiful and fun and crazy, and I thought it was a blast to read. So great review. Elsie I'm pretty sure I read four of her books, and this was my this is my favorite so far. It's my reigning champion. Oh, I thought Dutch house was your favorite. No, this one, okay, I love Dutch house too. You know for the Tom Hanks of it all.

6:48Emma Right, right, right, right. Of course, of course. Elsie But yeah, no, this book is, it's so magical. But I also wanted to, like note, if you've ever read the book Big Magic, this is the book from Big Magic where Elizabeth Gilbert kind of says, like, the idea left her and went to someone else. It was the idea for this book, and it went to Anne Patchett. So when I read the book, I and I realized it was like, from Big Magic, which I am obsessed with. I don't know. I think it's such a cool story, like an origin story for, like, you know, I love Big Magic, yes, the idea abandoned Elizabeth Gilbert and made home in in patch it instead. I think it's great.

6:57Emma And that's why you have to write your idea. Elsie Cory, yes, yes. That's why you have to do it. Like I that is actually a fear that keeps me motivated. Is, like the fear that if I don't write this book, that someone else will, and I think that's really, like, a big part of where my first novel came from. Like, it like, if, you know, if I wouldn't have done it, and then it would have just come out, and that happens all the time. That is real. It's a good source of inspiration. I mean, motivation, yeah, a little bit of fear isn't gonna hurt you. A little fear is good.

7:05Emma Little fear is good, too much, and that's a problem. Yeah, yeah. I'll also say, just for anyone out there who's like studying writing, because you want to write, this book has a lot of backstory, and I've seen reviews where they say it's too much backstory, but I thought it was really well done. There is a lot of backstory, and I thought it was really well done. So I think it's a great example of a book. If you're like, I'm not good at backstory, I feel like, you know, I don't get it in there in the way that I want. I want to see a writer who's really great writer do backstory. I would read state of wonder. It's got a whole bunch of backstory and and you really don't feel it. It's just there and important. So anyway, if you're looking to write more backstory, State of Wonder might be a good reference for you.

7:14Elsie Yeah, no, it probably is. I hate the writing advice when people say to cut all the backstory. Like, I just think it's like, this is, this is not a 20,000 word screenplay. Emma Ann Patchett didn't, of course, I'm not Ann Patchett but nevertheless. Elsie It can just add so much, like, depth to your characters in the second half, you know, and so much payoff. Like, I just think it's great. Yeah. Now it’s time for our special segment, a joke or a fact with Nova. Hey, Nova, what do you have for us this week?

7:23Nova I have a riddle. Elsie A riddle. Okay, I'm ready. Nova Although it's a very long one. Elsie Okay, all right. Nova If there's 305 bricks on an airplane, one falls out. How many are there? Elsie 304. Nova All right, how do you put an elephant in the fridge? Elsie I don't know. Nova You open the door, you put him in. You close the door. How do you put a giraffe in the fridge? Elsie You open it up, put him in and close the door. Nova No, you forgot one part. You open the door, you take the elephant out, and then you put him in. The Lion King is hosting a party. Out of all the animals, which animals missing?

7:46Elsie Ooh, the hyena? Nova No, it's the giraffe, because he's stuck in the refrigerator. And then Sally's going to the party, and she has to cross a river of very hungry looking crocodiles. How does she survive? Elsie How? Nova They're at the party, but she still dies. How? Elsie I don't know. How? Nova From the brick at the beginning one. That's the end of the riddle. Elsie Wow, that's an interesting riddle. I've never heard that one. Have a good week.

8:01Nova Bye. Elsie All right. Thank you so much for listening. So we are fresh out of hot takes for our segment. Hot take debate. If you have a hot take, email it to us at podcast@abeautifulmess.com and the other request we have is we are really debating if we're going to do. Do summer, if we're going to do the whole summer schedule, if we're going to do every other week, if we're going to do one a month, we just don't know. But the truth is, we need more ideas. Yeah, if we're going to do them, it's possible still, but we need more ideas. So email us your request specifically for like, your dream episode request at podcast at a beautiful mess.com and we will try our best to fill the summer for you.