Dan Senor Sends Us to Voicemail

0:00[upbeat music] Hi, welcome back to Ask a Jew, where a secular sinful Israeli speaks to her wholly religious friend, Anya L., here with Chaia Lai. We've, we've finally reached boss level in this podcast. [laughs] Unbelievable. Right? Because we have Dan Senor here of Call Me Back fame. Uh, I don't know what we're gonna do after this. Like, who's left- I know... for us to interview? No one. God. God. We have to get God on. Moses. Um- [laughs] The New York Knicks, the New York Knicks. The New York Knicks? You guys have gotta start having some of the New York Knicks on next. [laughs] That'll be like- I...

0:36Wait, can I- That's the appropriate step up. [laughs] Can I start this podcast saying something absolutely terrible? Yeah, go. Sure. I don't know if I want the Knicks to win, because I feel like this city does not deserve any joy or happiness- [laughs]... right now. I, I, I, I, I'm- I got a lot to say about that- [laughs]... what you're, what you just said, so you need to tell me if that's where we wanna start. Oh, boy. [laughs] I feel like most of- Is it?... people have turned this off right now. No.

1:05[laughs] But also- I actually wanna say... All right. Sorry, go ahead. I cut you off when you said, "What am I gonna do this?" No, no. We're not gonna get a word in if you don't cut us off. Oh, yeah. So please. Okay. So finish your thought, and then I'll get in. No, that's it. I'm just... I, I don't know. I, I see everybody so happy, and I'm like, I feel like we should be in a, in a four-year mourning period. But, uh- Because-... that's just me. Yeah, it would be- Because of-... of our mayor... we elected this mayor. Yeah. Yeah, no, I understand that. We can talk about that. But I wanted... That being said, I actually think...

1:33I mean, the, the energy around the Knicks on this momentum ride... When is this podcast gonna release, by the way? This week. This week. So it'll be during... w- while the Knicks are playing their home games- Yeah... in New York. So, you know, game, games three and four will be in, in New York, so this is... The timing's perfect. So, A, I just love the energy and all the excitement about a, a New York sports team making it and having a shot at the title at the championship. So that's exciting.

2:01But, but it also brings out the, what is most hilarious to me about New York Jews and New York sports fans and New York Jewish sports fans. Yes. So this is... Like w- the cliche only in New York, it really... This is only in New York. Yeah. On Friday... So you... I assume you guys, WFAN, the sports radio- Yeah... this is not probably... Okay, so you know what I'm talking about? Okay. So, so one of the shows is, um, is co-hosted by Evan Roberts and Tiki Barber, and Tiki Barber is a former, uh, running back, uh, NFL player for the New York Giants. And let's just assume neither of them are Jewish.

2:42[laughs] And they take calls in from New York sports fans, right? That's- That's basically what they do. They take calls in, and they banter with... Like, it's classic, like, from another year. Before, you know, podcasts and everything, this was from another era, like, just classic sports talk radio. And I cannot tell you the number of calls they got on Friday from observant Jews- Yeah... calling them with dilemmas about- [laughs]... whether or not they could watch game two, which was on Friday night, because it was on Shabbos. Mm. The game was after... Was, uh, it was after sundown. I know.

3:18And these guys, I'm thinking, well, these poor guys, Evan Roberts and Tiki Barber, like, w- who's calling them? [laughs] Go see your rabbi. Like, you're... Why are you calling these guys? And you would think they would be totally flummoxed. And instead, of course, as is classic for a New York Jewish sports, you know, community, they had points of view. And that's it. And actually informed points of view. And they're going back and forth on what the appropriate balance is, is to strike with keeping Shabbos and keeping track of whether or not the Knicks win game two or not. And it was, it was, it was...

3:56Like, I, I was like- So great... "Wow, this is great." Can you- This is... And there's not- Do you have the TV on? Like on- Well- Well, here's... Let me tell you from experience. I have four sons. Oh, here we go. Okay? Okay. I have four boys. I do not have daughters. Yeah. I only have sons. We are a crazy sports family. My kids are obsessed with all the big s- all the major sports and teams and players. It is an issue every year for different sports reasons. Yeah. Thank God football generally is not an issue, but it c- sometimes is, especially during holidays.

4:24This year is gonna be a disaster 'cause Rosh Hashanah and Sukkot- Oh, I know... and Simchat Torah are all Saturday and Sunday, and it's the beginning of the school year. Oh, oh, hey, can I tell you something even worse- Horrible... my son pointed out to me the other day? Yeah, Yom Kippur. My son pointed out to me the other day. On Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, I think it's on Rosh Hashanah, is... The Jets. We're big Jets fans. Yeah. The New York Jets have... You know, it's their...

4:45I can't remember if it's their, it's their first game or their second game, whatever. Maybe it's their home opener. I don't remember. Yeah. And it's also the weekend of the Subway Series between the Yankees- Yeah... and the Mets. Forget it. I know. All in one weekend. All one of the high holidays. It's unbelievable. I know. I know. So, so, yeah, yeah. Why does God hate us so much? So we do not leave the TV on. We don't do that. But what the kids do is- Why not? Why not? Because it's... We, we really don't. It's not- Because this came up. By the way- I'll tell you why... this came up on WFAN. I know.

5:12I'll tell you why we don't, because it's really not in the spirit of Shabbat and holidays. It's not what we call Shabbosdik in Yiddish, right? Like, it's not, it's not in the spirit of the holiday. We did leave on the TV. I'll tell you when. I remember clearly, I lived in New York at 9/11. I lived in my grandparents' house, and my grandparents, who were very Hasidic Jews in Brooklyn, they had a little television. They left it on the first Shabbat after 9/11 because my grandfather felt like we had to be keeping up with what was going on in the news- Yeah... and what was happening. So during a war, I could see an argument for it.

5:43It's a lot less fun. Yeah. A sports game we wouldn't, but my kids will go up and down the streets looking for houses that windows are open that they could see on the screen. [laughs] They'll go to restau- stand outside restaurants and bars watching the game from a distance. They will talk to everyone they pass by. "Do you have the score? Do you have the score?" The security guard at every shul is the most- Yeah... popular person. Right. Everyone thinks it's 'cause he's-... like, protecting us. It's 'cause he's gonna give all the scores of what's going on.

6:13They are surrounded by the kids the entire Shabbat when there's a big game on. So we find different ways, and I, like I always tell my kids, "Maybe your keeping Shabbat is gonna be the reason your team wins. Maybe Hashem is gonna reward you." [laughs] So- Okay. C- can we stay on this for a moment? I wa- I wanna stay on this. Yes. [laughs] Because this, this really, th- you, I wish you would've heard the conversation on base, on base WFAN, uh, where they were putting these questions to, to Rav, Tiki, and Evan.

6:38[laughs] Um, they, they, the, the, they came back with a couple of proposals, uh, uh, Tiki and, and Evan- Right... to these Jewish callers, okay? One was, "Why can't you keep the TV on?" So that's just a... Okay, now, now, then the question became, well, because you're using, if you keep the TV on- Right... you're using, you know, you're, you're, you're using electricity or you're da, da. And then, then, like, they were so informed, they even said, "Well, but-" That's so true "... don't some Jews keep the lights on?" Yeah. [laughs] Mm. Don't they keep the lights on- True... over Shabbat? Right? True.

7:07It's fair. Yeah. That's what I would think. Or of course, the Shabbos timer, like that the lights- Right... go automatically on- Right... for Shabbat, so why can't- Right... the TV be on? So then- Right... then I was thinking, I actually found myself in a weird dialogue with them even though I wasn't even calling in, and then I thought, well, but, but with TV you're, you're consuming the content. It's not just- Yeah... the act of turning on the TV. If the TV happens to be on, but you're, but you're consuming it. Yeah. You're like, you know, it's, th- then that's its own violation.

7:35But then I thought to myself, but then they would say, "But isn't that the same with light?" Right. If the light is on, you're consuming the light. Mm. Mm. See what I mean? This is a Talmudic ex- So you're- This is Talmud right now. We're, we're- Yeah... literally writing a page of Talmud. We should have your father on Chayil Lada- [laughs]... to discuss this. The, the other question they... Then s- someone else called. I mean, I couldn't believe, this was, like, classic. This is so cute. Like, only in New York- I know... would so many people be calling.

7:56And then, and then they, someone else called, and then they got into a whole, you know, discussion and debate about whether or not you... a version of what you're saying about the Shabbos security guard. C- can you have someone else turn on the TV for you? Yeah. And I guess you're saying not, because if it's in your home, then it's, it's violative of the- Yeah. That's the same... of the Shabbos. Okay. But, but then, and then could you rely on someone to just keep you informed? That, that was its own discussion. Yeah. Sounds like you're okay with that. I think, I think that's kosher, right, Mustafa?

8:23I'm, I'm good with that. I'm good with that. I saw on Twitter somebody said that, like, the security guard at his shul, uh, posted the front page of the New York Post on the wall- [laughs]... for everyone, and he was, like, the most important person in shul that morning. Yeah. [laughs] Okay, I'm gonna give you one more. This is- And I know this- Yeah, no... is not what you wanna talk about for the whole hour, but I do want to just say one, one o- other topic came up, which is the cool thing in New York for the away games is they, there's all these public places in New York where people are watching.

8:50So, like, Central Park has a huge screen set up. Yeah. MSG has... Like pe- like, there are places you can just kind of walk around in New York and see the game without, like, going to see the game, or without turning on your television. So if your family were in New York, and you guys were out for- Yeah... Shabbat dinner or at shul, and you're walking back, and you were walking through Central Park- Yeah... and they could see the screen from afar- Yeah.

9:14Mm... what do you think? It would be... I would be okay. What I wouldn't be o- I would be fine with that. I wouldn't want my kids to, like, bring a chair and sit down- Mm... and park themselves there. Again, because... And I know people are gonna have a hard time understanding the difference and the nuance, but it's really about, like, this concept of the spirit of Shabbat. What is it? What is it, you know? And so we try to, we try to skirt this line of, like, pr- like, law and just sort of feeling, you know, and, and knowing that it's Shabbat and that it's different. Now, my boys would say, you know, "We're in our hats."

9:46They, my kids wear the black hats and the suits and their white shirts on Shabbat. So they feel automatically like it's different than a random Sunday, Monday, or Tuesday. Mm-hmm. But so they, even if they're sitting and watching the game in Central Park wearing their Shabbos gear, I think they would still feel like it's Shabbos and know that they, you know, just to keep that reminder of like- They're also representing. Yeah. But you know, I made a joke, I mean, and then we'll continue, but onto something else, but I made a joke to someone the other day now that I feel really bad about, 'cause she was telling me that her kids are going to the Maccabi Games.

10:14You know, Maccabi is the- Mm. Yeah... ACC movement, has, like, Jewish Olympics. Yeah. And I made a joke [laughs] and I said, "Jews are so bad at sports that we're not even in Paralympics or special needs Olympics. We have our own fourth kind of Olympics, right, after [laughs] regular- The Jew Olympics... Olympics." And I meant it out of love, and they were so offended. [laughs] Oh, wow. And I was like, "No, I didn't mean it." Although I do know some people who got into the Maccabiah Games because they play a s- particular sport that needed athletes. Yeah. Well- So they're like, "Oh, you know how to, like, windsurf? Then we need you."

10:49I, I love that my kids are into sports. I think it's great for religious kids. It's such a good outlet. Not that they're all the best role models. I don't, it's not that. But it's such a good, it's such a healthy outlet for the kids. They, they... I, I'm thrilled with it. Well, yeah, it's a healthy outlet for kids- Yeah, for anyone... whether they're religious or not. Great. I mean, I, it, it, it breaks my heart since COVID that youth sports has been in somewhat of a crisis- Yeah... uh, and decline.

11:12And I think, I mean, what, m- both my kids are, my boys are very into sports, and one of them quite seriously. And I, the only thing, one, one of the many things I marvel at is the hours and hours a day between all his training and his practices and his games- Yeah... and da, da, da, he's not on his phone. Mm. Yeah. Hours and hours- Happy... and hours. Sometimes there's, like, major- Yeah... news events happening in the world that I just assume every human being, including 17-year-olds, know about. Yeah.

11:42And hours will pass, and he know- he knows nothing about it. Yeah. I'm like, "That is great." What sports does he do? True. It's so true. He plays, he plays tackle football. Oh, wow. Wow. Okay, that's- Yeah. I think I heard you talk about this... quite, quite seriously. Yeah. Yes, he plays it quite seriously. Um, okay, well, I apologize. You guys I, I wanna take back everything I said, because now I feel like I'm a terrible New Yorker, and I love the city. I worked for the city for six years. I love it.

12:05I just- I'm with you, I'm with you on, on- I don't want anybody to experience joy right now... your sense of despair about the city. I share that. Mm-hmm. But, but this is a, this is a special moment But I have one comment on your Jets fandom. Sure. I feel like anyone who's not a diehard Patriots fan is anti-Zionist and antisemitic. Mm. That's my feeling. Robert Kraft is a tzadik, a holy person, who does so much for Israel and the Jewish people- He cured antisemitism with that ad... everyone. Yes, he solved antisemitism. There's been nothing since. Exactly.

12:38There's been nothing. No. No, but we- [laughs]... should all be diehard Patriots fans. That's all I'm saying. I have so much to say. [laughs] You are opening up a can of worms. [laughs] And I, and I know Robert as well, and I adore him. [laughs] But, but do we really wanna... Like, we can do the whole hour on this, if you're fi- [laughs] Like, we, we did, we... It's, it's your call. Um, I- Are you not triggered at the ga-... I, I went to a Jets game once, and a- as an Israeli, I was so triggered by the air raid siren thing that they have- Mm. Yeah... that goes off. Yeah, yeah.

13:07[laughs] And every time I wanted to hide under the bench. Yeah. No, that, um... I, no, but I, I think being a Jets fan, unlike being a Patriots fan, I should add- Yeah... being a Jets fan really is being Jewish. It's true. Yeah. Uh, it's- True... it's learning to deal with, with adversity. Yeah. It's learning to deal with suffering, with constant disappointment. Disappointment. [laughs] And, and finding, and still finding pockets of joy in the disappointment. Yeah. So you learn to take life's disappointments- [laughs]... and say, "But I'm gonna still dig deep for the joy." Yeah.

13:38And I'm almost gonna make a ritual out of these disappointments and- Yeah... figure out how to find joy in them. So there's... I, I can... I have a whole, like, drash- Sounds true... on this. I think being Je... Where the Patriots, it's like, the Patriots might as well be from, like, the Hamptons. Like, everything- Yeah... is great. It's very Hamptons. They're always, like, they're always winning Super Bowls. You, it was so hard to see Super Bowl. And then when they're not winning Super Bowls, "Don't worry, a year from now we'll draft a new quarterback, and then we'll be in the Super Bowl." [laughs] It's like, eh, what...

14:03That's not, that's... Come on. That's like joining the nice- Oh, we lost Dan for a second... WASP-y country club in South Hampton. That's not, that's not, that's not being Jewish. But whatever. That- So- This is the most we've talked about sports in this entire podcast. I mean, I could keep going. Dan, I hope your, I- Let's keep going... I hope your sons are listening. [laughs] Yeah, right. They hate this podcast. But anyway, um- Her sons, this is a, a favorite story we love to tell. Her sons, um, when they can't wake up in the morning- Yes.

14:30Their yeshiva friends put the phone on near their bed and start playing the podcast and then run away. [laughs] Why, why do they hate the podcast? They cringe from me. They just are embar- I don't know. They just think it's so cr- embarrassing that their mother is, like, you know, on a podcast and talking and d- like, oh my God, if I dare talk about them. And my son was, like, walking down the s- Three of my kids live in Brooklyn now, 'cause they're adult- my kids are older.

14:54And, uh, someone walked over to my son and said, "Oh, I heard you're ready to start dating and getting married," you know. And my so- my son was like, "What? How dare you say that in public?" [laughs] He was so upset, so I try. So one of my favorite podcasts is a, um... And it's really the first podcast I ever started listening to, was, it's called The Bill Simmons Podcast. Oh, yeah. Which is like a... Do you know Bill Simmons? Okay. It's like a sports and popular- Yeah... culture, mostly sports, podcast.

15:21And he, and during football season, NFL football, he does a, he does a two episodes a week on what's going on in the NFL, basically. And one of the episodes, and he always does it with this buddy of his who's named on the show called Cousin Sal. And what they, for whatever reason they started this tradition many, many years ago, at the end of every episode during football season, they have this segment called Parent Corner. Mm. And Simmons and Cousin Sal each tell a horrifying or hilarious story from parenting from that week. That's so cute. Okay? It's unbelievable. Oh. [laughs] These stories...

15:59First of all, they happen to both be great storytellers. And they're, and if, as, if you're raising kids, you're like, al- like, every story- Mm... you're just like, "I've been there. I've been there." Yeah. Like, I, like, it, like- Yeah... w- And, and I, on the one hand, I love it. It's now sad for me 'cause Simmons' kids are now, like, one's about to graduate college, one's going to college. Right. I can't believe, like, I know these kids. [laughs] Like, like, I feel like I've been growing up with them, you know? [laughs] Yeah. And so, like, I feel like, what does he do now with Parent Corner?

16:23Like, what does he do? [laughs] I'm like, all, like... And, but I, I think to myself, he gets so detailed- Yeah... about his kids. And I think about, like, what you're s-describing- Yeah... with your kids. Like- Yeah... his kids, are they not horrified? Yeah. No. Like... Anyways. My kids, I, and we had an episode early on where we talked about, like, I was... In the beginning of our podcast relationship, I would do a lot of explaining about the Orthodox world and whatever, and in one of our earliest episodes, I ta- I talked about this thing.

16:52I don't know if you've ever noticed, but the Shabbat after Passover, there's a custom to make challah with a key in it, or to make it, the challah, in the shape of a key. It's an old... Ugh, I don't know. It's, like, an old custom, and it's become, like- You've seen it on Instagram... it's become revitalized. But if you look at pictures on social media that people post of their key-shaped challahs, they very much resemble a male body part that we are not going to mention- Right... by name. And so I kind of- Yeah...

17:19talked about that and made, I, you know, I made a joke. A- and so we started getting all these pictures of people's, what we were calling, dick challahs and etc. Oh, my God. And my kids, who are in yeshiva, like, I f- you know, I feel for them because that was, like... So yeah, that's why they hate my podcast. [laughs] Yeah, I get it. I get it. And they wanna get married. All right. So anyway. Right, right, right. So- Well, you know. I feel like we're gon- we're gonna finally start, 20 minutes in. Yeah, let's go. Okay. [laughs] Dan- Okay, so now let's do Mets versus Yankees. Okay. [laughs] Um, no.

17:49No, we're in- I'm sorry. No, no, go ahead. I have n- I have nothing. Go ahead, yeah. I have nothing to contribute. Go ahead, yeah. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. No, we're very excited to have you on. We, we... When I first reached out to one of your producers, um, who's a friend, and I said, "Do you think we can get Dan, um, on Ask A Jew?" And he said... You know what he said? He said, "I can't even get Dan Senor on Call Me Back" [laughs] Because [laughs] which is your show, obviously. It's true. Because- Yes... you're- 'Cause you're busy... a very, very busy man.

18:16And Hyla and I were talking, we're like, "What do we wanna ask him?" It's like, you're very successful, uh, in, you know, podcasting. You've written a bunch of books. You have a, uh, a great career. W- uh, what are you bad at? Like, what do you really- Yeah. What do you suck at? There must be something you suck at Do you want my wife to come in here? Yeah. [laughs] She should maybe take over this part of the conversation. She would have a lot to say on this topic. [laughs] Um, uh, I'm, I'm bad at a lot of things. Do you really... Is this therapy? No.

18:48[laughs] I mean, are we- is this like a- Yes... mid-career- I mean, would you rather-... coming... talk about Iran again, the Straits of Hormuz, ah, blah, blah, blah, blah? Nobody cares. [laughs] Um, I'm actually not very good at sports. How about that? Oh, okay. Okay. That's something. That's something. Um, I, I mean c- I mean, I, l- l- let, let's talk about... I don't, I- [laughs] My, my, my, honestly, I, I, I really could, could... M- my, my wife would say whether I'm good at things or bad at things, she would say I have too many things going on. Oh, okay. Okay.

19:21That's- Fair... so, so that, that would be, like, the, it, like, it's so, so... That I have too many... This is not, by the way, this is not to say for a second, like one does in a job interview or a college application, like, you know, "What is your biggest challenge?" "Oh, I just- Ugh... I work too hard." You're a perfectionist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I try. I try. I'm always trying. [laughs] You know, and I just, sometimes I need to not try so hard. [laughs] That's not- I give too much... no, she's- Yeah.

19:45She [laughs] exactly, exactly. Always just wanna be too helpful. Yeah. [laughs] Um, no, no, she would say I, I'm, I, I try to juggle too many balls, and when you juggle too many balls, uh, balls drop. Mm. And often when they drop, the people, the balls that get dropped are, are sometimes, uh, the, the, those, tho- those balls belong to the people closest to you. Mm. So you just gotta- That's true... try not to be, you know, um- Yeah... busy with too many things.

20:13Our, our teacher who taught us about marriage before we got married told us, and I'll never forget, she said, "Life is about juggling lots of balls in the air, and it's normal that j- balls drop. Make sure you're not dropping the same ball over and over again." Mm. Like, if you're always dropping the same ball and it's always your spouse or your kids, but you're always really good about work, then, you know, that's not a good balance. You have to sometimes allow things to balance each other out.

20:37But- I, I heard it, like, I heard an airport analogy that I liked once, that you need to always have some planes in the air, some planes on the ground- Yeah... some planes landing, so, and no planes crashing. Right. [laughs] Yeah. I'm like, "Yeah, I can-" Yeah. "I can deal with that." I, I, uh, uh, to your point about the not always having the same ball, I'm not sure I agree with that because what my w- what Campbell would say is she would say the, the problem with people wh- who juggle too much is that they believe that when balls drop, their bias will be letting the balls drop, this is coming back to my earlier point, of, that, that belong to the people closest to you. 'Cause they n- 'cause you know- Yeah...

21:17they'll always- Yeah, they'll let you... deal with it. Right. They'll, they'll always kind of let that ball go tumbling down, and then let you pick it back up, and like- Right. Right... whereas, whereas people who aren't that close to you may be less forgiving or less- Yeah... tolerant. So you're actually, human nature is to be more mindful of the people less close to you- Yeah. That makes sense... because you're, 'cause you're, like, you're kinda more worried about that balancing act, and you're kind of, like, the stuff at home or relationships that are- Yeah...

21:42close to you are, you're like, "Oh, those, they'll have my back no matter..." You know what I mean? So that's- Yeah... that's the, that's the unhealthy part. You're, you're actually naming an issue that a lot of Chabad rabbis and their families struggle with, that I'm gonna s- mention here- I, I, I'll bet... that, uh, people- I, I tell, I t- I, in another life, I would be a Chabad rabbi- Yes. No, but I, I, I'm gonna name it... in another life, so I'm glad you bring this up...

22:00and people are gonna be uncomfortable for, I think my frien- my follow, people who listen who are Chabad are gonna be annoyed at me for saying this. But I grew up the daughter of a Chabad rabbi in Rebbitzen, and I know from that experience and from all my friends that often in the relationship that the Chabad rabbi has to his community, it's much easier to push your kids and your family to the side when necessary 'cause you want to be there for the congregation and the community.

22:25And my father has a, this story that he always tells about a Seder that my brother had, like, was in fourth grade. He had learned the Mah Nishtana in Yiddish, and he was so excited to say it at the Seder. And he, like, set his place up right next to my father so that he could say it, and then a guy came in who hadn't made an RSVP. My father kicked my brother out. I'm only telling the story 'cause my father always tells it. He kicked my brother out of that seat and, and put this guy who just walked in last minute next to him, you know, to my dad.

22:53And my brother left and didn't come back to the Seder. He went to sleep for the night. And he didn't come, and he never, he didn't say the Mah Nishtana, and my father didn't notice until the next day. Oh, wow. And then m- the next day in shul, my father spoke and he said, "I committed the sacrifice of Isaac yesterday. I did it." [sighs] "I sacrificed my son because I wanted to impress this guy who came, and he didn't RSVP. He wasn't important to me. He was a random guy off the street, and I pushed my son away." And I mean, this is, and it's something that all of us struggle with.

23:23I mean, we, I'm telling you a deep story, but w- how many times in our own personal lives are we experiencing that moment of, uh- Was he a donor, though?... that's painful. 'Cause if he was a donor... [laughs] I mean... Still not okay. I mean... Yeah. I think the other, I'm curious, I mean, I, I, friends of mine who are, like, I'm friends with this rabbi at our kids' day school, um, who's Orthodox. He's, I don't know how old he is, late 40s, early f- early 50s. He has eight kids. Yeah. So his oldest is, is married. Seven. Oh. His youngest is, like, three or four. [laughs] Yeah.

23:55[laughs] And, uh, and I honestly don't know how he does it. Yeah. And his wife works full time. Yeah. I, I honestly, friends of mine, I just don't know how they- Yeah... and he's, like, so engaged in our, in our community- Yeah... you know, at the school, and he's fully involved. And obviously he's very present. He has a big job at the school. I just don't know how, how- It's hard... how people do it. I mean, I just- It's hard. It's hard... um, anyways, so I think about Chabad rabbis in that regard. Yeah. Like, oh, my gosh. Yeah. Like, A, a million kids, B, in charge of a community- Yeah...

24:29C, what you just described, ha- feeling you have to- Yeah... you know, be very responsive to people. Um... Yeah. It's a big job. So how did you get into... Like, what, I don't understand when you wrote your books. Give us like a short timeline of, like, you wrote a book about Israel. Were you already in, you were in the US government somehow, where you ended up in Iraq? Were you a soldier? I don't know what's going on here. [laughs] You, I, I don't know. Then you had a podcast. [laughs] I don't know. Uh, I'll do it, I'll do it briefly. Okay. I'll do it briefly, okay? Yeah. Okay. Um, um, so my bar mitzvah portion- [laughs]... was, uh...

25:06No, I won't start there. I won't start there. [laughs] I, um, I worked in the Bush administration, that's the Iraq part when you mentioned Iraq. Yeah. I worked in the Bush administration for the Pentagon and the White House in 2003 and 2004, and I was based in Iraq for, and, and, and Doha, and, and Kuwait for a little bit, but mostly Iraq for about 15 months. And then came back, uh, June, uh, 2004 when the US government handed, and the coalition handed sovereignty back to the Iraqis. And I was back in the US. I was living in New York. I was work- I'd left the administration.

25:44I was working, I was doing some media, a lot of media stuff around Iraq and what was going on in the Middle East, and I was doing some investing, some, uh, in, in the business world. And then I also got this idea to write this, uh, book called, which became titled Startup Nation, which was based on two experiences. One experience was working with a lot of Israeli en- entrepreneurs over the years, including at that time. I had invested with a lot of Is- a number of Israeli startups, and I always felt that when people thought of Israel, non-Jews, when most people who hadn't spent much time in Israel or thought about Israel, they had two images.

26:22They had, like, maybe three images in mind. They had, they had the IDF. Mm-hmm. Camels. They had camels or, yeah, I would say camels, or I would say like, like, like kibbutz- kibbutzim- Yeah. Mm-hmm... like from another era. Or, or Haredi Jews. Mm. Like, you know, they have these images, and that there was like this whole other slice of Israeli life that most people... If I told people, "Do you know that Silicon... That Tel Aviv, that Israel is the most important innovation economy outside Silicon Valley in the world?" Right. In the world. Like, it's not even close.

26:54It's like Israel, sorry, it's Silicon Valley, then it's Israel, and then it's like a huge drop-off. Mm. Like it's n- like I said, not even, it's not even close. More Israeli startups, more startups, uh, on the, or more, more Israeli companies on the NASDAQ than any country in the world outside the United States at the time. Highest density of startups in the world. More global venture capital being attr- you know, uh, being drawn to Israel than any country in the world on a, on a per capita basis. When I tell people this, they, they, they like- Mm... they thought I was nuts. Mm.

27:24Like, they couldn't understand. It just, they didn't associate it. Now, we associate Israel with all of these things. But back then, nobody... And so I was... And I was here, was working with some Israeli entrepreneurs who I thought were some of the most interesting, compelling entrepreneurs in the world, again, several of whom I'd invested with. So that was one motivation for writing the book. And then the other was, when I was in business school, I was getting my MBA. It was before I was in Iraq, before I was in the Bush administration.

27:50I took a group of 30 students to Israel- Mm... all of whom were first-timers. 27 of the 30 were, uh, not Jewish. The three that were- Oh... Jewish had actually never been there before. They were from all over the world, these students, India, Portugal, the UK, Canada. Wow. Just thinking about some of them, but obviously, the US. And, um, and I wanted them to see the tech economy and the whole startup scene in Israel, and at the end of the trip, they were saying, "We get the, the what. We get like what, what you're showing us.

28:21What is happening here is amazing." How the, you know, like, like some of the data I just rattled off, they were seeing it firsthand. Mm. But they were saying, "But how?" Mm. Like, how did Israel pull this off? How did it pull it off in the least likely of places, surrounded by enemies, in a state of war since its founding, no natural resources? So the combination of those two experiences, or those two sets of experiences, led me to believe there's a great book to be written here. Mm.

28:48And so Saul Singer, who's my, my brother-in-law, who at the time was a writer for The Jerusalem Post and was living, he made aliyah with my sister in, in 1994, and he and I are very close, and we're always- Mm... he's like my thought partner. We're always brainstorming on things. And I said, "You know, there's a great book to be written that just explains what's happening here." Mm. Israel, like this Silicon Valley in the least likely of places, and why- Mm... why it exists, how Israel pulled it off, and what the world can learn from it. Mm. And so we, we pitched it to...

29:22We got an agent, we pitched it, and my wife told me that no one would be interested in this book- [laughs]... but I should still write it. She still thought, the good news is she still thought we should write it because she knew we were passionate about it. Mm. But she wanted us to go into it eyes wide open- [laughs]... that no one would ever be interested in this topic. Uh, and I keep reminding her over, it's been over, translated into over 30 languages- Wow... which means a lot of people were interested in it.

29:43But, um, but, uh, but anyway, so we wrote the book, and, um, and so that's, that's where I started. I mean, I was, been very involved with Israel over the years. I have a lot of family in Israel, as I said. Mm. Um, I, I've been very involved with activism, political activism on the US-Israel relationship for a number of years. I'd worked in government and politics, but I'd never been out there as like a, a- Yeah... commentator or analyst or, in this case, a storyteller, uh, about Israel. And so that's, I think that's probably where it began, that ultimately- Mm...

30:18that book led to the second book, and then obviously it's connected to the podcast. When did, uh, when did Startup Nation come out? 2009. 2009. Do you think it could be, because it's a very... I mean, uh, it's a wonderful book. I think everybody should read it. I think it's absolutely still relevant today. Um, it, but it also, it showed people, like, another, and I, and I hate to use the word Hasbara, but it showed people a different side of Israel that they don't normally see that is a very positive, it's a very positive book, uh, about Israel.

30:45Do you think it could come out today in, like, a major publishing house? Wow, that's a great question. Um, I will tell you, we had challenges last time when the book came out that I didn't, that would've never, that on the one hand, I w- like I wouldn't have ever imagined today. So but I, I, your, your, your question is, I l- I'm gonna come back to that. When the book first, when we first wrote the book, we had no problem pitching it to our, to our, you know, Simon & Schuster.

31:15Uh, sorry, it wasn't Simon. Simon & Schuster did the second book. It was Hachette Books. It was, it was the imprint. It was 12 books. John Karp, who's Jewish, who was the editor on it, but, um, but he was not, like, he's not some Zionist activist type. Right. Um, but my point is in the k- in the kind of secular and certainly non-Jewish book world, th- p- people were excited about it. Yeah. They thought it was a great story. Yeah. So they had no, like, mishegas about it. Yeah. Like, they had no like, "Oh, this is cool. This is..."

31:40You know, and, and it came out as a business book, and it was... But then, so we wrote the book, and then to build up excitement and begin the marketing, we started go- I started, uh, Saul was in Israel, but I was here. I started going around and meeting with, like, different Jewish community organizations, trying to get them excited about the book. Hopefully, you know, make purchases, promote it, host events, et cetera. And I'm going to meet with the boards and the leadership- Mm...

32:04and the professional staff of some of these Jewish organizations, whose names I won't mention, and when I walked through the book f- to them, they were slightly horrified. Hmm. Because... And they were not excited about it. It was a fascinating phenomenon, and the reason I realized, as I k- I kept doing these pitches, and I was like, "Why is this landing so, like," I don't wanna say, like, in a negative way, but, like- Flat... certainly, like, sort of a muted- Mm... muted way. And I realized for much of i- n- a lot of institutional diaspora Jewry, institutional, like the major organizations, their whole story about Israel is Israel is a charity case. Right. Yeah.

32:47[laughs] It was, it was, it was that, that their focus in the diaspora was, we need to be there for Israel because Israel's under siege, and Israel is, is, you know, suffering, and Israel is, you know, under the gun, and Israel is weak, and we need to be there f- to take care of Israel. Hmm. And we were telling a different story. Yeah. Yeah. We were telling a story about, about Israel as the indispensable economic partner of the West. Yeah. And the indispensable innovation partner of Silicon Valley, and that the world gets as much, if not more, from Israel than Israel gets from the world. Right.

33:26And that if you're not figuring out how to partner with Israel, you're in trouble. You meaning, like, business and economic centers around the world. Mm-hmm. Like, we were telling a much, we were telling a story about Israel as a source of strength. Yeah. Not Israel as a, as a, as a, you know- A down-low... as a welfare case. Yeah. But by the way, that's a conflict that, that's a conflict that I think really exists within Israeli society too. That on one hand, we're always like, "Look at us, you know, this is an Israeli invention," and Eurovision and everything's, you know, we're so amazing, but also we're under, constantly under attack and, and both things are, are true at the same time, right?

34:01I am constantly struggling with this. Yeah. Like, constantly. Like, even in the last 48 hours. On balance, I believe Israel is better off as a, as a story about a source of strength in the world. Mm-hmm. Because I think ultimately, in the world of geopolitics, which is what I'm most focused on, decision-makers in capitals around the world are generally drawn to strength. Yeah. They wanna partner with, with actors that they think have momentum, that are strong, that are clever- Winners... that are winners. Exactly. People wanna be with winners. They do not wanna be with charity cases.

34:41And so, and I think Israel has entered that, that realm now, where it's not like it's obviously not just us writing about Start-Up Nation, but just globally- Global... there's a sense, even these pathetic European countries- Yeah... that think that they're, like, making a big statement about, you know, voting at the UN, you know, for a Palestinian state and making these strong statements from their, from the foreign ministries or the chancellories, criticizing Israel for this or that, they still are desperate- Mm.

35:07Yeah... to do trade deals with Israel, to do defense deals with Israel, to do... So I mean, I, I... Because they know there are basically two laboratories today for the future of warfare and defense. Yeah. There's two. That's it. Mm-hmm. It's Ukraine, and it's Israel. Right. And, and both of them have extraordinary stories, by the way, of what they've accomplished. But they, but they want, I think the Israeli story is even better than the Ukraine story. We can get into that, but, but I think they w- so they wanna piggyback onto that. So why did the Abraham Accords happen? Right.

35:34Right? The Abraham Accords- Yeah... did not happen- Not because we're a charity. Not because they felt bad for us... because the Emiratis and the Bahrainis felt badly- Yeah... for Israel. [laughs] The poor Jews. And they didn't happen be- yeah, the poor Jews, we gotta be the... Or they, or, or, or it didn't happen because they, like, suddenly became Zionists. Right. Yeah. Like, ugh, you know, we, we, we're, we're Herzl, the wisdom of Herzl- [laughs]... and Jabotinsky, you know. And so they, they- They read Alan Dershowitz, The Case for Israel. [laughs] Yeah, exactly. [laughs] No.

35:58They, they believed Israel could help address their own problems and challenges. Mm-hmm. They wanted to partner with a country that helped them, not a country that they had to help. Yeah. And so, and I think that is the future of the Middle East. I think that's Israel's future, like, now for the... So I'm actually quite bullish on Israel's future. Yeah. So I think ultimately, that's the direction we need to lean in, and that Israel, God willing, should continue to lean in. Um, that said, you're right. Like, th- at the same time, like, even, even these last few days, like, I was just thinking- I know... about what Israel's dealing with, with Lebanon and, you know, and just- Yeah... and then, I mean, everything it's dealing with.

36:36Elections and the- I know we can get into it. And every day a soldier- You know, but, but I'm just thinking, this is, this is crazy. People are like, people are like, "Well, are you surprised? Despite all of Israel's gains, it still has, you know, Hezbollah on its southern border, and it still has the..." I'm like, "Yes." Do you, do you ever stop and think how crazy it is- Yeah... that this tiny little country has Like, give me another example. Give me another comp in the world where a country of Israel's size, which has a tiny population, no strategic depth- Yeah...

37:06uh, geographically, and is literally surrounded by people on most of its borders that are waking up every day saying, "How do we destroy this country?" [laughs] Like, I'm sorry that they don't have that all cleaned up in a tidy bow. Yeah. [laughs] Like, this is a... They're in a, they're in an impossible situation. Right. So I, I agree with you, Yael. Like, I go back and forth with- Yeah... the, the extraordinary accomplishments and, um, and, uh, and the, and, and the challenges. But I didn't answer your question, because I ha- I forgot what the question even was...

37:35and I wanna get to it. But it was a great question. Oh. Yeah, today they would make you like- See? I should be running the interview. [laughs] No, sh- would, would, would the book have been published today? It would have a forward by, like, Cenk Uygur- [laughs]... and they would have to publish, like, a book about how, you know, fiber optics are a Palestinian invention. Exactly. Right. Right. Um, I would say, would the book get published today? That is, um, I don't know. I mean, the, I, the, the, I'm, I'm, like, sad to say- Yeah... uh, I don't know.

38:06I mean, for instance, it- I'm not even thinking about the book being published. I'm thinking about the book... Like, like, when the book came out, I spoke, I did a million lectures- Right... around the country. I'm think- and I spoke at all these college campuses, and no one thought twice about... I mean, I, I spoke at Berkeley. I'm thinking of some of the places I spoke. Right. Yeah. It just didn't even, uh. Right. But I'll tell you, the bigger challenge of a book coming out was our second book, The Genius of Israel, came out, uh, N- I mean, this is so, came out November 7th- Oh... 2023. Wow. Hmm.

38:38Our publication date was exactly- Oh, I-... one month after October 7th. Oh my gosh. Wow. And obviously, as you know, like, these publication dates are, are- Yeah... blocked in before, I mean, you know, months and months before. Um, and, um, so we had no control over the publication date. And, uh, and the publica- publication date was November 7th. Um, and so we had a book less... A- and, and it was less about the tone, to your point, like, would people have shpilkes about writing a book? Like, would they be uncomfortable, like publishers- Right... about... It's less about that. It was like, I remember Bret Stephens, who was reviewing the book, called me after he had submitted the review and saying, "You guys need to figure out how to change the pub date of this book." Hmm.

39:24I was like, "Bret, we cannot change the pub date of the book." Oh. He said, "Y- you will look like idiots- Right... with a book- Tone deaf... coming out a month after October 7th." When, not just tone deaf, you, you look out of, you look out, out of t- meaning you're- Right... this is after Israel experienced the biggest screw-up- Right, right... in its history after, the only thing that's comparable to it is the Yom Kippur War. I mean, being totally- Right... looked hapless. They looked- Right...

39:49they looked like a paper tiger, and you've got a book called The Genius of Israel. Hmm. Like- Yeah... y- y- you, it's r- Yeah... Ethan Bronner, who wrote a review for The New York Times, uh, for the book, and he, obviously, he had committed to write the review, um, before October 7th. But, um, but, but obviously he had to deliver the rev- the review after October 7th, 'cause the, the book was published November 7th. And I think, I don't remember off the top of my head, but he said something like, in The New York Times, he said, um, "This may go down as the, as the worst timed title for a book in the history of publishing."

40:28[laughs] Like, that you could write a, a book after- Oh, God... like calling it the j... And he said the, he said the year, the year after Israel, Israeli society tearing itself apart with the judicial reform- Right... fight. Hmm. And then it's cul- culminates with the October 7th attack, Israel being completely off, caught off guard, and then these guys come out with a book called The Genius of Israel. [laughs] Real genius, guys. Well, while we were talking, I just, I'm, you know, my, I have a brother who lives in Israel, and, uh, he just posted in our family chat that schools were closed for, uh, tomorrow in Israel, by the way.

41:01So I don't know what's going on- Yeah, something seems like something's popping... on the ground. But the point, uh, the, the reason I'm s- mentioning that is because in relation to what we're saying, I, I just don't have patience right now for American Jews who think they understand or can have an opinion on what's going on when the Israelis... And again, I'm not one of these people that, "Oh, if you're Israeli, you get to have an opinion, but Americans don't." But I have no patience for American Jews lecturing Israelis right now. I've lost my patience.

41:28Like, they're not home- We, my kids go to school every day, and they're fine. My brother is at home with six kids in a bomb shelter, in and out, off school more days in the last three years than they've been in school. Okay? I'm just, I'm so sick and tired of the Americans being like, "We're gonna have a moral argument to make to the Israelis." I just, I, I can't take it anymore. And I've tried to be diplomatic. I try to hear it. I try to understand it. I wanna be there.

41:54I want, I wanna be in this conversation with the diaspora Jewry and with Israelis, but there's such an uneven n- an unevenness to what our experiences are that I just don't know how we can really be in conversation with the Israelis in this way. Do you, uh, uh, does that make sense to you, Dan? Like, do you know what I'm trying to say? I don't, do you, do you feel, do you feel that American, y- you're dealing with American, like you're, you're s- you're, you have exposure to a lot of American Jews who are doing kind of a lot of finger-wagging- Yes...

42:23at Israel? Yes. Yes. See, I don't. [laughs] I don't. Yeah. But maybe 'cause you're- No, I don't... they're not in your orbit Or I don't know, the listener But, but what orbit are you- I mean- You guys are getting this? I see it on main, w- well, I mean, not to call out, well, whatever. I mean, I think some- Call it out. Call it out. It's just the three of us... I think some Jewish institutions- It's just the three of us [laughs] I think some Jewish institutions, I think some denominations of Jews, like, that there's this idea that, yes, we love Israel in, in theory, and we support it in theory, and yes, October 7th was terrible, and we believe in...

42:57The worst thing, Yael, and I get so nervous when people say, "We believe in the existence of Israel." Like, fuck that, right? Yeah. Oh, right. I know, like fuck that. Israel's right to exist. Yeah, the right to exist. Israel has a right to exist. But then- Yeah Like you would say that about any other country. I know. Yeah. But, but I know. Would you ever say, you know- Ugh. But come talk to a liberal- Well, it depends where it's coming- India has a right to exist. I know.

43:14I- But if you come talk to an average liberal Jew, and I, I hate being so blanket about it, but if you come talk to an average liberal, liberal Jew living here in Long Beach, California, or anywhere in Southern California, they have a laundry list of things that they're upset about that's going on in Israel and, uh, uh, with the Israelis, right? Like, they're angry at the Israelis. They're, they have all these issues. But we're angry at ourselves, too. We Israelis are also angry. That's different. Like, I was thinking Dan's book- That's different...

43:37like The Genius of Israel, Israelis need to read that because we're spending so much time, and that's bothering me a lot, in the last three years and before, like, thinking the worst things about ourselves, too. Right. So it's such a mind fuck, excuse my language. Yeah. When we wrote The... When we wrote, um, Startup Nation, my friend Tal Kainen, who's a, who's a former Israeli Air Force pilot, and who I went to business school with, I actually met him in business school here in the US, but he, um, he at one point was asked about it in an interview, and he said it, it actually... I mean, Saul is Israeli, but he's an American immigrant, you know. Mm-hmm. So he's, he's...

44:17So he, he said it kind of takes, and I obviously don't live in Israel, he said it almost takes people from the outside to s- capture- Mm-hmm... what's going, what's special because we, he says we, like people who grew up here or spent their whole lives here, been in it, they wouldn't have, like we wouldn't- That's a good point. No, it's normal. And- Yeah... and it's the, and it was the same, and it's the same with, um, I think it's the same with The Genius of Israel, Haaretz did this big magazine piece, um, when The Genius of Israel came out 'cause it was all about how we argued that Israeli society is actually one of the most healthy societies- Oh, they must have hated that...

44:52in the world. Yeah. Right, and it, and it actually, a- a- and, and of course all these, "But what about judicial reform? And what about the Haredim? And what about the..." You know, they're all, like, they're all, like, pointing to... And I, and what we argued in the book is we said, "Oh, you're saying that Israel is a polarized society and that has issues on which to be polarized." Yes, I- Is- Israel has that, as does most- Everyone... of the world today. Mm. Everyone is going through polarization.

45:18Each one is dealing with its own, you know, issues in terms of what the, what the vessels for polarization are, but th- this is a phenomenon of our times. The question is, on balance, which society would you bet on to kinda hold together? Which society has social and civic shock absorbers- Yeah... that keep the country together even when they're at each other's throats? Again, I don't wanna digress in- into a whole- Yeah. Yeah... um, you know, going deep on the book. But that was basically our argument. And, and, and so when we had the data to prove- Right...

45:47like, what we were arguing and why Israel... And this guy who wrote for Haaretz, like, went into it as such a skeptic, and he basically wrote this magazine piece saying, I mean, it was written in Hebrew, he basically said, "I'm, I'm a skeptic. I was a skeptic, but wow, like, when you actually look at the data- Yeah... this is a pretty great place, dare I say." [laughs] Like, he was almost like- [laughs] And then he was fired from Haaretz. [laughs] I was gonna say, then he was fired from Haaretz, and he was told to leave the country. No. Um, and so, and so I, I think there's something to what you're saying.

46:16I, the, the, the whole with American Jews, you know, pearl clutching and kind of, like, that, that... I, I don't know. Maybe I'm... I, I, I feel like it's more stark than that. I think, I think there's the critics, the Jewish critics of Israel, which actually represents smaller numbers than their voices represent. What I mean by that is I think they're very loud. Mm. I think they get a lot of attention because their, like, their voices are, like, outsized. Mm. Their voices are outsized in part because those in the media wanna elevate- Right... they, they're incentivized.

46:51You know, Christiane Amanpour, Amanpour would have Peter Beinart on her- Of course... like, show every night if she could. You know what I mean? Like- Yeah... they wanna elevate these voices. So, so you think that their voices are louder than they are, right? I, I have, like I have spoken at a lot of college campuses before October 7th, but also since October 7th, and I'll have presidents of universities or professors at universities say, "You know, when the, the anti, the encampments or the anti-Israel rallies on campus, you know, there's a lot of Jews involved, Jewish students who should..."

47:18They always tell me this. Then I say, "Really? How many?" Right. Mm. "No, really, like, how many?" And they're like, "Oh," so they, they, like, every time there's an SJP rally- That's it... there's always a Jewish student who speaks. I'm like, "Right, a Jewish student." One, right. Or, like, two or three. Yeah. Yes, they're very strategic about always having a Jewish student speak at the rally. So they, like- That's a great point... the, the, the- But it's a problem, like- The, the perception is they're outsized. But actually statistically- Right...

47:42do you really believe statistically that, that that's represent... Like I, I actually, I will tell you among young Jews, and I... So I'm not in an Orthodox community. Right. I'm in a very quintessential pluralist Jewish community in terms of where, like, the school we're involved with and just where I am on the Upper West Side. And, um, so, and, and we have all walks of political life and socioeconomic life in this community- Right... and religious life and ideological. You know, we have real ideological diversity. On Israel, we don't, it's, it's pretty, the, the i- the, the, the support for Israel, the love for Israel, the, the activism for Israel, the sense of peoplehood with Israel, the, the, the, the, the, um, inclination to give Israel the benefit of the doubt is Pretty, pretty strong.

48:35Really? And again, these are among... And these are- Yeah. So I, I wonder whether or not you are reacting to, you know- Well-... loud voices rather than large numbers. But it's being sold back to us, too. Like, that's my problem with it. That's the problem. Being, it's being reinforced in media. And my new biggest pet peeve, and I have many, is, like, this representation of anti-Zionist Jews in the culture. So if there's, like- Yeah... a TV show or a, you know, a play or something and, and, you know, th- they would never, the Jewish character will never utter a word about Israel anymore. That's, like, taboo.

49:12And they're, I feel like they're trying to, like, we're, th- people are trying to sell this back to us as mainstream. And I mean, let's be honest, a lot of young people in their 20s don't feel any, you know, affinity to Israel as Jews. Mm. I'm not saying you need to love Israel, everything Israel does. Of course, I don't. But, like- But are these people, but do these people that you're describing feel a strong connection to Judaism? Uh, no. But they still consider themselves Jews. Yeah.

49:38And you know, they do their bagel and their pickles and their lox. [laughs] And, and they're not gonna be around in another generation. But- Right... I still- Right Right... I still worry about that because I st- and I ask this of a lot of our guests, like, what would you tell a young... And I'm sure you get this question a lot of, like, parents or young people, like, I feel like there is no price to pay today to be an anti-Zionist Jew, right? Like, you're not, y- you're just, like, existing in society.

50:03No, there's a lot of reward. There are a lot of reward. But, like, what would you do, like, to turn that tide? And you can't say Jewish day schools. [laughs] Why? Because we're v- I mean, I won't. I won't. We've talked about it- We've talked about it- Yael, why?... all the time. That's the answer, though. I'm obsessed with Jewish day schools. Yes. [laughs] Okay. I'm obsessed with Jewish day schools. Okay, let's say somebody- And I'm obsessed with Jewish camps... somebody in Nebraska who doesn't have a Jewish day school. And I'm, and I'm obsessed with, with gap year programs- Yes Okay... in Israel. Yeah.

50:28So why aren't I allowed to s- I won't say these things, but why are you- [laughs] Why are you silencing me? [laughs] Well, something- What is this?... something smaller. Something- I thought you p- told me a free-flowing conversation- [laughs]... and now you're, now you're... I told you- Yeah... the one thing you can't talk about are Jewish day schools. No, I'm kidding. Something more, you know, something s- like, like an emotional connection, something that is not a big life decision. There's nothing. What do you mean? Dan's right when he says about Jewish day school.

50:52What, what do you want? We tried the Holocaust, right? [laughs] We tried to get our own kids here. This is the camps. This is dead bodies. Are you saying we did the Holocaust? Is that what you're saying? No, but just, no, we tried using that as a way to get Jews to care, right? Yeah. We tried to hold up all the piles of bodies, and we took them to Auschwitz, and we said, "Oh, look, look." And they still didn't care. And we, to birth- uh, to me, birthright is 100 time... And you know me, I love the Holocaust, right? But my- Yeah, you do...

51:15the Israel, the birthright trip is a thousand times more important to me than going to see Auschwitz. And that- 100%... I think is a big change that we as American Jews have to flip in our heads. Mm-hmm. Because we haven't been able to. I would rather build today a museum of Israel here in America. Let's have an Israel museum, right, where we come and see all the wars that we fought and the hot Isra- put hot Israeli soldiers all over, have spots where you could take Instagram photos with hotties in their uniforms.

51:43[laughs] That to me, that's much more important than anything we've been pouring money into, fighting antisemitism or any other BS we're trying. But I also think you need to teach, like... Okay, I, I have an answer to my own question, and I'm just thinking out loud. No, but see, so you're- How about pride religion? Not only are you banning- This is Jew... not only banning what, what I can say- Yeah... but you had, it's like a self-licking ice cream cone. I, I- You already knew what, you, you went into this with, like, a plan. [laughs] This is Jew.

52:05And it was, and you, I'm, I'm just, like, your- Listen, Dan, when you, when you have us on Call Me Back, you can ask us some questions. Yeah. Okay, fine. [laughs] Go ahead. You, you had, you had a spiel ready to go. [laughs] You just wanted to make it sound conversational. No, I actually didn't. Okay, go ahead. I didn't because I asked this, all our guests these questions. And then- Okay. I'm still gonna respond... while you were talking- But go ahead... I wasn't listening and I was thinking about my answer- Yeah... and I came up with an answer. [laughs] Okay. Okay.

52:25Um, no, but, uh, but I think, uh, these, I think people, like, there's something at the core of, like, the Jewish American identity that is very much about the other. It's very, like, outward-facing, right? It's always like, "What do they think of me? Are they trying to kill me? Do they like me? Do they accept me?" And I get it. You're, you know, you're, you're diaspora. You're a minority. I, I didn't grow up like that. I grew up Israeli. Like, I, I just feel like people need to start, like, stop listening to everybody else and start listening to yourself. Start listening to people around you.

52:54Like, these Jewish kids, they will give the benefit of the doubt to every single activist that they meet and every single person that comes with a grievance. Do you think they would listen to a Chabad rabbi if he came to talk to them? So, like- They will now. When, when they go to Jewish day school. So here's my, here's my, here's my... I, I actually think they'll listen to every grievance. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, and they'll give everyone the benefit of the doubt except for two different projects. Mm-hmm. One, the Israeli project. Mm-hmm.

53:26And two, the American project. Mm-hmm. Mm. 100%. I think these same people, these same people that are, that are intrinsically and instinctively hostile to Israel, generally speaking, are also hostile to America. A million percent. Yeah. And I get this all the time when I s- speak on college campuses where a, a Jewish student will say to me, "My, you know, someone in my dorm," or "Someone in the, you know, the, the, you know, candle-making literature club," or, "Someone in the- [laughs]... you know, someone in my class," or someone of this, they, they are so critical of Israel, and what's the best way? They're just, they, they think everything Israel does is wrong. Then what's the best way to turn them around? You know, what's the best way to...

54:16And I know you're asking about, Yael, you're asking about Jews who- Mm... have this sentiment, but I think it applies to both, you know, Jews- Yeah, everyone... and g- Right... And I, and my response is, "Don't even try to per- engage them on Israel. Don't." Yeah. I said, "A- start with a different question." Mm-hmm. You want to engage these people? Ask them a different question. Ask them how they feel about America. Mm-hmm. No, you're right. Say, "Do they believe that- That like the original sin of Western civilization was, was 1976. Was like the founding of... Sorry, not, 1776, sorry.

54:48[laughs] Was the, it w- do they think the, the, the, the f- the founding of America was like the original sin of the West? Right. Do they think 1619 is more important- Mm-hmm... than 1776? Yes. Yeah. Like, do they think that, like, there's nothing America could do that is right? That we're, there's like a stain on the country forever based on the way in which the founding of this country occurred, and the, like the 100-plus years, whatever, following the founding of the country.

55:17Is that, do they think that is how to, how they think about America? Mm-hmm. Or do they say, "America's a complicated place." Mm. "And it's had all sorts of twists and turns since its founding, but it's generally trying to get better, and it's g- you know, is, is, you know, generally trying to, you know, advance and progress in the right way. And, and it's, it's doing it in ways and with precedence and in, with innovations in terms of the, of the development of its society that is, it makes it a total outlier in the world, way ahead- Mm...

55:50of most of the rest of the world. And, and therefore, America is actually making the world, not just for Americans, but is actually a net contributor making the world a better place." Yes. Do they believe that? Or if you said that, would they think you're absolutely crazy, and they actually think it's the former? And if you tell me that they're so locked in to the evilness of America as an idea, not just how Americans live or how decisions Americans have made, but America, like the American idea, the American experiment.

56:20If they believe that it is, it is corrupted and broken from its founding, and it's irrep- it's irreparable, and, and it's not redeemable, then they're never gonna have anything but a hostile view to Israel. Yeah. But I, I agree. Ever. They hate, a lot of these people hate America. They hate Western civilization. Everything is a dead white man. They definitely hate capitalism, which, you know- But also you have to drill down- Right... have to drill down on the Jewish piece of it, 'cause I think what Dan's saying is so true about all young people, and all Americans in general right now, and everybody in the West.

56:53But if you wanna drill down on the Jewish piece of it, we have done such a disservice to so many American Jews by saying, "You know, it's not about the Torah. Don't worry about that. It's not about Israel. Don't worry about that. It's not about our, you know, the, our history. It's about, you know, cleaning the beach and being a good civic engager, and make sure you vote." [laughs] Tikun Olam, yeah. The environment. We made it so blah, right? And so now we're face a tough situation, right?

57:20We're facing, you know, I think, I, it's not just October 7th, which is horrible, but it's COVID, it's the digital age, it's October se- it's all of this together, and we're asking them to a- to think very d- f- to ask themselves difficult moral questions, difficult things about identity, and they have no skills in it. They literally have no skills. If you sat me down and asked me to talk about some deep physics question, right? I, I would look at you blankly, and I would run away because I know nothing [laughs] about physics, right?

57:49And we're asking young Jews, and by the way, I don't only say young. Jew, I'm 45 years old. We're asking Jews my age, okay? My a- 45-year-old adults to think deeply and critically about their Jewish identity and about the place of Jews in the world, and they have no scaffolding. They have no way of being able to answer these questions. And so we, as a community, now have to say to ourselves, "How do we rebuild that? What are we giving? What are the ingredients to give a Jew the opportunity- Yeah... to engage in these ideas?"

58:19If, if, I just wanna, I just wanna, Yael, I'm gonna join the pile on here. Uh- [laughs] I, I'll just add to this. Um, if, look, uh, even though you, you, you, you tried to muzzle me talking about day schools, I am gonna say one other thing- [laughs]... about day schools. Uh, e- but it's not day schools. It's, it's what my, Saul, my brother-in-law who's, who, who, my co-author I was talking about earlier, he, he had this term many years ago about the idea of Jewish bubble experiences. Yeah. Yeah.

58:48Like you want young people to be in Jewish bubble experiences. Now, the, the term bubble now has like a negative connotation- Yeah... but it actually is, is, [clears throat] excuse me, is a fantastic image. Because when you're in a Jewish bubble, and you're with other Jews who are all living a similar Jewish life, and, and your whole world, for whatever time that is, is, is, your, your whole Jewish world is that, is that bubble experience, whether it's a day school community, or whether it's a camp- Mm-hmm...

59:18or whether, whatever, traveling a summer trip- Right... a teen trip, it is, or whatever it is, you're, that [clears throat] not only are you living a Jewish life, you're living God, you know, hopefully a, a, a connection to Israel, but you're also, young people are, that's when like f- you're, they're having formative experiences- Yeah... and formative relationships. Right. That's when, that's when their whole social milieu, like that's their, what's where their friendships are being made. Yeah. I mean, I will tell you- Yeah... I mean, I've just seen it with my own kids.

59:46Like I like to think that Campbell and I have had a big influence on our children and who they are. But I'm, you know- Right... I've seen enough to know that the friendships they have are- Yeah... the biggest factor. Yeah. And the community they have, and the pack of friends that they have is the ball game. Like, like we're, we're there. We matter. Right. But we're marginal. We can steer here, we can steer there, but it's basically- 100%... they are not spending eight, 10, 15 hours a day with us. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

1:00:16Uh, so I mean, maybe, you know, on Shabbat or whatever, pocket, but the day in, day out, that is not their world. And so we have to make a decision, what, what is their world gonna be, their world of friendships, their, you know- Yeah... again, those social experiences. And you can choose for that to be in a Jewish bubble or not. Yeah. But if they're in a Jewish bubble, it's not about like, oh, we, we drove that piece of information in their head at this time, and we taught them- Right... about, you know-...

1:00:44you know, that this argument about Israel at that time, it's that their whole, their whole w- world, their whole ecosystem at key formative periods of their lives was Jewish. Community, right? And part of that Jewish, that Jewish life, that Jewish learning, the, the, you know, becoming Jewishly literate, the experiencing Jewish rituals, the Jewish joy, the scaffolding, like, all, everything you just, you know, that Israel winds up being part of that. Right. It's not the only thing. Yeah. Exactly. But it, like, becomes part of it.

1:01:13And so later in life, when being supportive of Israel, because you're on some college campus where people are losing their minds, becomes harder, you're like, "Yeah, this is harder. But, but you know what else is hard? What else is hard is abandoning my Jewish identity- Mm... my Jewish community." Mm-hmm. "Because that's what I grew up with, and that's who I am, and that's who my people are." Mm-hmm. So yeah, defending Israel is hard, but, like, I, I couldn't imagine living any other way.

1:01:40It's hard to ask kids to be thrust into that college campus situation where these maniacs are, you know, taking over libraries and dorms and building encampments and, you know, and, and, and tell that Jewish kid, "Go take those people on." Yeah. "Go argue with them. Go debate them." And they're like, "Why?" Yeah. "You didn't say any of this Jewish identity or Jewish community was important for my entire life." Right, exactly. "I, I didn't grow up with anybody who cared about these things. And now, when you're telling me it's all downside, there's no upside. I have no upside. It's all downside.

1:02:12Uh, you're asking me to thrust myself into this fight that means nothing to me." Yeah. So I don't mean to bring it back to day schools or- [laughs]... that whole category, but I do think- It is... things get hard. And when things get hard, you gotta say to yourself, "Are, are Jews anchored or do they feel unmoored?" Yeah. And if they're anchored, then it actually turns out it's not that hard- Yeah... to care about Israel. It's just- Community anchoring. Right. It's so interesting- And, and- Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, you go ahead.

1:02:39No, I was just gonna say, like, it's interesting 'cause as we're talking about this, I'm thinking about my experience as an Orthodox Jew in this country and my kids, what they're, how, how they're experiencing their identity. And my son, my oldest, just graduated college this week in New York. Um, he went to- Mazel tov... Touro. You know, and Touro- Mm-hmm... is an Orthodox school. Mm-hmm. Say that he graduated with honors. He did. I- But I was sitting at the graduation, and I was looking around, and, you know, there were 500 graduates. For our listeners, she put, Chaya put, she put that in the chat, asking Yael to say.

1:03:09To say [laughs] Just make sure to graduate with honors. I mentioned that your- 'Cause she didn't wanna be the one- Exactly... she didn't wanna be the one to say it. It was cute. He just mentioned that Ollie got an award. They don't, they don't see- Out of, wait, out of how many students? People don't see the chat here. Out of 500 students, there were 15 academic awards. He got one of them. Um, but anyway, the point I was tha- I wanted to make is, like, I was sitting in that room in, at, at Lincoln H- Center in Manhattan, and I'm looking around at this community of 500 students.

1:03:32The girls and boys are separate. You know, the girls are in the front. The boys are behind them 'cause they go to school separately, but they have one graduation. And I looked around at the crowd of parents and grandparents and friends. It was such a diverse Orthodox world, right? There were people with long payos. There were Chabadniks. There were modern Orthodox. There were Syrians. I mean, it was really a story of American Orthodoxy in a room. And then they get up, and my kids, my sons who were with me, not the graduate, are like, "Are we at Hogwarts?"

1:04:01'Cause they had never seen, like, you know, the, the pomp and circumstance of, like, the professors all coming up- Yeah... in these long beards, right? And sheitels, wigs, like women in wigs who are deans of the different departments of Touro coming up and having this, like, really American, secular, uh, you know, cer- uh, ceremony, but, like, it was so Jewish, right? They sang the American national anthem. Then they sang the Hatikvah. Yeah. Then they had four Hasidic singers come on stage and sing a Yiddish song.

1:04:29And, and I'm like, and my son is, you know, going to medical school, hopefully, and I'm like, "Look how far we've come." And I contrasted that with what I'm seeing here every day in Long Beach, right? With, with the experience that a lot of Jews are having here, which is so far from that experience that my kids are having. And it's just an interesting, like, dec- what's the word? Like, um, I don't wanna say, like, disparity, but there's, like, a big difference in the, in the experiences, even what your kids, Dan, are having in, in New York than what kids outside of the New York bubble, you know, or outside- Yeah...

1:05:03of the Orthodox bubble. I mean, there's just, like, two stories to tell here, I think- Hmm... of American Jewry. But it's- Yeah. I, I will say, though, I guess, to this point about Jews who are, who are proudly hand-wringing about Israel or very publicly hand-wringing about Israel. Again, I think the numbers are- Yeah... smaller than, than, um, than is actual, I mean, in terms of the actual numbers, than it, than is kind of elevated or represented in the media and the, you know, other platforms. Um, I do think back to where you, or I forget, one of you was, uh, was rooting for general sense of despair in New York City. I, I f- I don't know who- [laughs]... who was, who was rooting. Yael, okay. I don't remember.

1:05:48Yeah, Yael was rooting for, we can't be happy at all. No, I'm not. In New York. It's already here. I just want us to embrace it. A four-year cycle. I know. I'm, I'm with you. Yeah. I'm with you. I'm with you. But, um, what, what, what I find, among the many things, I find so, um, uh, alarming about Mamdani or what Mamdani represents or Mamdani-ism, you know- [laughs]... to the extent that it's, like, a movement, which I kinda think it is. It's more, it's bigger than just him. Yep. But what he's testing is, is this idea of good Jews and bad Jews. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

1:06:23And he's making him- Yeah... he, he's establishing himself as, like, the arbiter of- [laughs]... good Jews and bad Jews. It's true. So, so good Jews are Jews that trash Israel. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right? Good Jews, those are the Jewish events he'll go to. Right. Yeah. Trua's annual gala, like, all these, y- these are, the, this is what he'll participate in. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and he will, and he will say, "Well, I'm not an antisemite. How could you say I'm an antisemite? I, I, I, I, I like Jews who- Agree with me that Israel- Yeah, yeah... is a settler colonial state.

1:06:55Yeah, I like watermelon yarmulke- Uh, I have nothing-... on women... I have nothing against those Jews. Which by the way, it's very so- Like, that was a thing in the Soviet Union. I mean, you can read Dara Horn's- Right... she has a whole chapter on this in- Yeah... in People Love Dead Jews, about how th- this, this, the, the Soviet embrace of Jews with a gradual, uh, uh, airbrushing from Jewish identity and history any connection to Zionism. Mm-hmm. Mm. And, and that was like a, that was very much...

1:07:23And so, so n- now the question is, will, will Mayor Mamdani attend a synagogue where there's an Israeli flag on the bimah? Or where they- Wow... say a prayer for the state of Israel? Mm-hmm. Or say a prayer for, for Israeli soldiers? Or- Well, he should stay with Satmar. He could go to Satmar, and then- Yeah... not worry about that. Right. Well, that's, that's the one he goes to, right? Okay. But, but- He doesn't have to worry about any of it... yeah, you're right. But- And you know who was the worst person here- Disgusting... out of all of them? And I'm sorry to say this, but Brad- Brad Lander...

1:07:51fucking Lander. How did I... I knew you were gonna say that. [laughs] He- I knew. By the way, just let the record show- Yes, you said it... before you even said his name. You did. Before you, I even saw the B forming in your mouth. [laughs] I said Brad Lander. Brad fucking Lander. So ar- articulate for me- I've had-... why you l- you find him so loathsome. I've had fantasies- 'Cause then I'm gonna articulate for you why I find him so loathsome. Okay. But you go first. I've had fantasies walking around my apartment, and what I would yell to him- [laughs]...

1:08:17like a crazy person, if I saw him at Trader Joe's. Ugh. Brad Lander had an opportunity to choose a side. It's like Hashem came down to him and said, "You're Jewish, you're a Zionist, or you claim to be Zionist. Um, there's this other people here who want all the people around you dead, and they're willing to embrace you if you're willing to kind of be their fig leaf." Mm. "What do you choose? Do you choose this kind of like, um, appealing to the people that hate you, and throwing everyone else under the bus? Or do you choose your morals and your values, and the love of your community or people?"

1:08:53And Brad said, "Uh, is that even a question? Of course I'm gonna choose the fucking Jew haters." And it just, I, I'm embarrassed for, for anybody who's, has such a weak sense of self like that. Yeah. Um, I actually think, Yael, it's, it's worse than that- [laughs]... if you can believe it. Really? Are you gonna swear, too? Here we go. I don't think we've ever heard you swear, Dan. No, I don't swear. But, um, but I, but I mean, when I'm really riled up. [laughs] I'm not nearly as riled up right now as you are. I mean, Br- Brad Lander doesn't rile you up, then I don't know what's gonna do it. He does. He does.

1:09:27But, but, um, I, I will, um... W- The reason I say it's worse than that is I, you know, Dan Goldman, Congressman Dan Goldman, who Lander's- Mm... running against. Uh, incumbent congressman. You can agree with him, you can disagree with him. Mm. I don't think anybody... I mean, his politics are not my politics. I, I, I know him, I like him personally, but I, you know, he's, he's definitely a, a, a partisan- Mm-hmm... Democrat-elected official. I think his, his, his democratic and progressive credentials are second to none.

1:10:04He was the chief counsel for the first impeachment of Donald Trump. Right. So it's like he wo- he, he worked with the, with the House Democrats on the impeachment of Trump, um, before he was elected to Congress. I mean, this is like, he's, he's go... I mean, again, th- these are not my issues, but if these are, are, are issues for the base of the Democratic Party, he's been way out there on ICE- Mm... and confronting ICE. I mean- Mm-hmm... he, all, all these issues one would associate with a, with, you know, kind of the progressive energy of today's democratic politics.

1:10:36You should not have a problem with Dan Goldman, except for one problem. Right. Mm-hmm. He's a Jew that supports Israel. Yeah. Yep. And that- Brad-... is the reason, that is the reason he will sadly probably lose his re-election, is that issue. Mm-hmm. That issue. Yeah. Not because he's not tough enough on ICE, not because he's not tough enough on Trump, not because he's not working on other issues, e- economic issues or co- quality of life. It's because he- Yeah...

1:11:02will not excoriate Israel. Yeah. That's... And that, so, and that Lander is, is, like, found that wedge. Yeah. Mm-hmm. There's no way Brad Lander would say, "I'm gonna run against Dan Goldman," if Dan Goldman were, shared his, you know, Lander's point, worldview on Israel. It, this whole... You have a Jew running against a Jew, finding the wedge being Israel. That's interesting. Yeah. That is like- You're right, it is worse... that is like- Ugh, it is worse. Okay, it is worse. No, I'm about to even say, and now that was my one worse. Now I'm gonna go even, like, more intense- Even worser...

1:11:32worse, okay? I like your- I'm gonna, I'll do my worse. [laughs] Like, this is like... Lander, if you look at the rhetoric he uses, he's constantly talking about the genocide- Mm-hmm... the genocide in Gaza. That's new, by the way. Constantly. It's all new. The c- Well, say more. No, I think he just- M-... started talking about this stuff. I agree. Yeah. Obviously. Since, since ele- When he was comptroller of- Yeah... of New York City, he was, he was approving investment- Yeah... in Israeli companies, including Israeli defense companies. He just changed. He read a few- So suddenly-... alt feed tweets... but suddenly it's a genocide.

1:12:05And changed his mind. Okay. Yeah. Right. Okay. So, so what, what makes me so sick about Lander and Mamdani, but Lander even worse, 'cause I guess to your point- Yes... 'cause he's, 'cause he's Jewish. Yeah. Is these men say, "We do not wish any violence upon Jewish New Yorkers." Mm-hmm. Right. Ugh. They will say that. Yeah. They will say that. I know. Right? But people in our city, and not just our city, around the world, are being radicalized in part, now I wanna say only, but, but in part because of the normalization- Mm... of ideas and language that is used to describe Israel. Mm-hmm. Okay? So if you constantly say- Israel is a genocidal state or an apartheid state or is guilty of war crimes or is training their dogs on how to rape people or whatever your latest thing is, right? Mm-hmm. If you constantly kinda normalize those ideas, how do you blame someone who hears that at a certain Jewish institution, be it a synagogue or a day school or a Jewish community center, they say a prayer to honor and, and, and, and express, you know, um, uh, uh, support for or he- the health or the well-being for the genocidal soldiers?

1:13:31Mm-hmm. How do you, how do you say that's okay? Mm-hmm. How do you live in a city and say, "Wait, there's an Israeli flag." Mm-hmm. That's, that's the equivalent of a swastika you're telling me- Yeah, right... Brad Lander and, and, and, and Mayor Mamdani. And, and they, they are locking arms with what you have just told us is a genocidal state. I can't just be okay. Mm-hmm. They're not my quote, unquote fellow citizens. We don't have a respectful civic disagreement. You've told me they are Nazis. There are Nazis in our midst. I c- I can do worser than that. How many... Here's a question for Brad Lander.

1:14:01[laughs] Well, I'm not gonna let you out-worse me yet. I'm gonna- Okay, I'm not done... I'm gonna out-worse you. [laughs] Okay. Lander and, and Mamdani, here's a question. New York City is home to the highest, I would, I'm gonna check this stat out. I've, but I'm pretty sure the highest, or if not the highest, one of the two highest concentrations of Israelis living outside of Israel, right? Mm-hmm. So look at how many... I mean, I... There are a lot of Israelis, many close friends of mine, who live in New York, who are residents of New York City, who are, who are contributing to the economic growth of New York City. Paying our taxes.

1:14:37They are running tech startups. They are, they are work- you know, they're doing all sorts of things here. These are all people who served in the IDF- Mm-hmm... Mr. Lander and Mamdani. Mm-hmm. These are all people who actually maybe during the war were called back to reserves. I have family members who live here in the United States who were called back and went and fought during the war, and then came back here to live their lives in New York City as residents of the city that, that Mamdani leads, and potentially, and constituents of could be future, would be actually, I'm thinking of a couple in particular, would-be future constituents of a congressman, Brad Lander.

1:15:10Does this mean you have genocidal, not just people who are supportive of the genocide- Right... but they were the implementers. Mm-hmm. These are the implementers of the genocide in your midst, sitting here. How do you use that rhetoric and then be shocked, appalled when there's violence- Yes... against those people in your city? Mm-hmm. So they are like, they're like throw- they're like, they're not just throwing kerosene on the fire. They are lighting- They are... the fire. Yeah. Sorry. You know what- Now, now-... Hashem could do?

1:15:38Hashem should give Brad Lander and Mamdani, and, uh, by the way, we have one in California, this guy, Scott Wiener. I don't know if you know who he is. Yes. Yes. He's also a- Yes. Yes... piece of shit, who was, you know, he was in the Jewish caucus, and he was so sympathetic to everything going on. Then he started talking about genocide one day. He just decided. Yeah. Like a dream. Yeah, he just woke up one morning. And he was gonna say, "Hashem should give them all hemorrhoids." That's all. I don't wish death on them. But, but, but- But hemorrhoids.

1:16:03But yeah, I was about to give you something- But that's why the Knicks should lose, Dan. That's why the- No, no, no... you, you need to sacrifice- This is wrong... the Knicks for the greater good. [laughs] This is wrong. No, no, I don't w- I don't wish the Knicks to lose, but I will, I will out- You're about to out-worse me. How about appearing smiling like a grinning idiot in a campaign ad next to a woman who went out- Ugh... on October 8th to celebrate- Oh, my God... as we were- I know... still trying to figure out how many people were kidnapped, and my Instagram feed was full of photos of people saying, "Has anybody seen my son?"

1:16:34This woman, who I don't blame her for doing that because I have zero expectations for somebody like that, who goes out to celebrate. But for- Yeah... just... I, I, I feel such disgust for somebody who is willing to just sacrifice every piece of humanity and just appear alongside somebody like that. Yeah. Like what... The bar is so low to begin with. The bar is already super low. I don't fault people who meet with Mamdani, okay? That's how I've adjusted my bar.

1:17:04But appearing alongside this woman who's celebrating October 8th when your, your relatives in Israel are still trying to figure out who's dead and who's alive, it's just, it's, it's- Yeah... embarrassing. I wanna comment on that for a second because the Rebbe, uh, [laughs] sorry. We can't leave, we can't leave Dan on this. Sorry. Dan is like, "I need to go." I'm sorry that I'm- No... bringing it back to the Rebbe. That's sorry. But the Rebbe was asked in the '70s about what to do when there's a mayor who's in office that you don't...

1:17:30You know, Chabad invited the mayor, forgot which mayor it was, who was, had said something anti-Semitic- In New York City? In New York City. The Rebbe? Yeah. They had invited him to some Chabad event, you know, as an honor. And so they, they wrote to the Rebbe, and they were like, "How could you bring this guy to your event?" And the Rebbe said, "We honor the office, not the person," right? We're honoring, we're inviting the mayor of New York City. It has nothing to do with that.

1:17:51And so a lot of Orthodox people, I think, use that argument as why they would, you know, meet with people or whatever. I don't think it... I do not believe, and I don't care who's gonna tell me I'm wrong. If the Rebbe was alive today, I do not believe he would say the same thing about someone like Mamdani. He would tell Brad Lander to go fuck himself. No, I, I'm, I honestly don't believe it. No. Uh, no. I, I, I- I don't believe it... I will tell you why I think you're right, is I, I agree with you. Uh, there, there's a, there's a very good, more contemporary comp, uh, which is, uh, the rise of Jeremy Corbyn in the UK.

1:18:21Mm-hmm. Exactly. And, and Jeremy Corbyn was, you know, when, when he was on the rise, and I should remind people, in t- 2017, like he, people thought he very, there was a very good chance he could get elected prime minister. I mean, he was the leader of the Labour Party, like they were the, you know, the British politics, it was, was and is broken, and Corbyn was on the move. And he is, he is Mamdani or Brad Lander. Yeah. I mean, he's the same- Right... he was like the pret- He's a Hedwig in elf, actually... you know, he, he, he, he was, he was... We should have seen what was coming here- Yes. Yeah...

1:18:52based on what was happening with the Labour Party in the UK. Yeah. And the chief rabbi of the UK, which never weighs in- Yeah... the chief rabbi in the UK, they ne- the ch- historically, Jonathan Sacks, uh, they, they do not weigh in on politi- British politics. Mm-hmm. And that was, I think, maybe the first time, or if not the first time, one of the only times. It was a big moment- Yeah... where the chief rabbi of the UK Actually weighed in and said, "This is different." Right.

1:19:18Exactly. "This is different." Exactly. And I do think there is a this is different moment. I agree. And it's not just about, quote unquote, respecting the office. I agree. It should've happened a year ago. Okay, Yael, let's ask one more question quick. Okay, I was just gonna say that the good news is that I heard this theory on an Israeli radio show that it seems like people are starting to move on from hating Israel to hating AI, and I'm totally here for that.

1:19:40[laughs] Because I think it, like, takes the heat off of us a little bit. But- But just wait, just wait, how many... They're gonna start pointing to how many Jews- Exactly... are the heads of these AI companies and the researchers and the- It's fine... it's, it's, it'll come back. Yeah. It'll come back, Yael. It always does. But okay, we'll let you go, but la- one last question each. Do we have time? Okay, I'm doing one question. Sure. Go for it. What is a conspiracy theory that you believe in? Come on, one. That's such a good question. Um, look, I...

1:20:16This is gonna sound really parochial, and it's really how this conversation started, but, but I do think there are a lot of actors out there, uh, very powerful actors, that are committed to effectively relegating the New York Jets to- [laughs]... a life of, of, um, dismal performance. And the... I mean, I have so many, I have so much data on this- [laughs] Wow. Too much... that, that I can show. I, oh, yeah. Well, first of all, I mean, I don't know, like, the last Super Bowl, the Seattle Seahawks won the last Super Bowl. Sam Darnold was the star- That's terrible... quarterback who... Yeah, you know, he's a New York Jet.

1:20:57I know, but- The Jets drafted Sam Darnold- Hey, I know... in 2017. I mean, it, um, I mean, I can- But you had Aaron Rodgers, and you still couldn't do anything. Nothing personal, but- And then Aaron Rodgers went to the Steelers, and the Steelers made it to the playoffs. I know. [laughs] So I, I can keep going on and on and on. Like, the, the, the, the, we, we get these amazing players, they do terribly with us, and then they go and have these storied careers elsewhere. Mm-hmm. I think there's a lot anyway. Is it the Jews?

1:21:21So that- Uh, hopefully it's not the Jews that are behind it. No, hopefully not. But you ne- Hila, you never asked me. My favorite conspiracy theory is that, um, Katy Perry is actually JonBenét Ramsey, and there's a lot of data on this. [laughs] I'm just saying. Um, I did not make this up. But- Oh, my God... um, okay. My last question for you, what is it like for you to go to Fairway or Zabar's or anywhere with Jews? [laughs] And what's one question that you're like, "If I ever hear this question again, I'm going to explode"?

1:21:52Um, boy, my, my camp, my wife would have a field day answering this question. We're interviewing her next week, actually. Yeah. Yes. She's really got the goods. She's really got the goods 'cause she, uh- 'Cause you have... You're probably nice. You're a nice guy, right? You're probably like- That's, that's one of her criticisms for me. You say what I don't do well, is- Yeah... she says, like, I'm too, I'm too- You engage with people... yeah, she's, she...

1:22:13But when I told her this morning, by the way, this morning, I t- 'cause, 'cause we got into a, to a, a, a, an argument about, about she had a very busy week work-wise. She had, like, you know... Anyway, she's got this startup, and she had all these people. She's very busy with... And she's like, "I just need a weekend to decompress." Yeah. And, and I don't wanna... Like, let's just not make plans, and let's da, da. And I'm, like, always making plans. [laughs] And I always wanna s- you know? And I'm always like, "Oh, we gotta see these people. Oh, these people are in town.

1:22:39Oh, Avi is in from Tel Aviv. Let's have him over for coffee. He just had a baby." Literally. Yeah. [laughs] Like, this is a true story. Like, we're literally... And she's like, "What did I say?" [laughs] Like, "No," like, "I need to decompress." And I finally said to her, I said, "The difference between you and me is I, I derive energy from people." Yeah. Like, I, like- I'm there... yeah, people are around, and that, like, gets me going. Yeah. And she, it, it like, she does not, she's not wired that way. And she, by the way, she said, "Yeah, statement of the obvious."

1:23:07Like, she's been telling me that for years- [laughs]... that this is where we're... So, um, so when we go out and people want to, um, talk about the podcast or talk to me about something I've talked about on the podcast, she literally is like... I mean, she can see them coming too when they're coming at me. [laughs] Like, she can, she can see them coming. But the most, but the, what, what I was gonna say is the most common question is not the question I get.

1:23:33It's the question she gets. Oh. Which is the number of times she tells me in a week that people she meets s- or speaks to, some of whom she knows and some of whom she doesn't know, they say to her, "What did you think of Dan's latest episode?" Mm. Of, or, or, "What did you think about the argument Dan and Nadav got in on the..." And they ask her this, and she says, "How do I break it to these people that I don't listen to your podcast?" [laughs] She says, "I don't- I know... I don't know what they're talking about." [laughs] Like, "I don't know, and I don't wanna d- like, deflate, like- Yeah...

1:24:07their enthusiasm 'cause they just assume that I'm sitting there heat- hitting, like, refresh on my podcast feed at, like, you know, whenever there's a..." I love it. And she says, "I..." They, they really think. She goes, "I hear you yapping away for hours a day every day. The idea that when I have a free hour, that I'm gonna put my earbuds in- [laughs]... and listen to you talk for an hour is like, that's what people think I would do." Oh, my God. It's so true. Like, she's like, she goes, "It's the last thing." It's so true. She's like, "I..." Right. She's like, "What?"

1:24:38Like, "Yeah, I get a break for an hour." She's out right now. She's walking the dogs or whatever. She actually asked us to interview you. We didn't, we don't, weren't planning on doing this. Yeah, yeah. We're just like- She's out walking the dogs. Yeah. And she, by the way, she's listening to a podcast. I know that. Right. Because I, she'll come back from her walks, and she'll say, "Oh, I was just listening to the..." But she never says, "Hey, I was listening to what you..." During that one hour I have off of you, I'm going to, you know. [laughs] So that is, that is actually- That's funny. That's amazing... yeah.

1:25:02But, um, but I will say, on a, on a, on a more serious note, the most common, it's not so much a question, the most common, uh, feedback I get from people, uh, the most consistent feedback I hear is, and it's not so much about- My podcast, but I just think it's the way people feel generally. It's that they, people are just appreciative of, of, like, having a space- Yeah... where they don't feel like they're taking crazy pills. Yeah. Yeah, we- Like, the, the, that we're in a world right now where everywhere we go, and we're just, every conversation we're having with people- Yeah... like, "Am I taking crazy pills? Like, did I, did they just do that?

1:25:36Did they just say that? Like, did they really just, like, say, yeah, you know, Israel trains canines to rape people in prisons?" [laughs] Yeah. Like, do they... That's just, like, a thing now, and that's, like, a normal thing. Yeah. And now we have to actually release medical studies that show that dogs cannot actually rape. Like, this is where, this is where we are. People are going out of their- And if anybody can make them, it's those brilliant Jews. [laughs] Right, it's... [laughs] Right. Startup nation.

1:26:00[laughs] And so, and so we're, and so it's like people are losing their minds in a way, and so I do feel what, part of what the podcast Call Me Back has tap- is, like, w- in ways that Alana and I could not have ever imagined- Yeah... is what's resonated, is this sense of people feeling like, "Okay, I'm not losing my mind." Mm-hmm. "I, I, I know there are disagreements within Israel. I know there's a healthy debate within Israel. I can hear people who may disagree with each other, but it's, like, within a band." Yeah.

1:26:28You know, it's, like, within a, or, like, a realm of normalcy. And so I c- like, a version of that, like, not articulated exactly as I just said it, but that's- Yeah... like, the questions or comments I get is, like, usually reflective of that sense of, like, people feeling, um, coming back to our earlier point, like- You're not alone... like, kind of anchored. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah, that's- Yael and I were walking in Nordstrom's in midtown Manhattan together, and a woman recognized us from the podcast. And she was like, "Oh my God, you're Chaya and Yael. Oh my God."

1:26:58And she started freaking out. She was on the phone with someone. She's like, "I'm standing here with Chaya and Yael," and they were... We walked out of there, I'm not exaggerating, our heads, they had to- She's forgotten about this... they had to knock down the wall. We still talk about it. They had to knock down the wall to let our heads out of the store- [laughs]... 'cause we were so inflated- [laughs]... with our own egos. [laughs] I mean, it was the be- I'm not gonna lie. I'm not gonna be humble.

1:27:19That's a great visual. [laughs] It was the best feeling in the whole world. [laughs] It is a good- Did you tell the Nordstrom manager, "You can set up a counter. We can do autographs." [laughs] "Like, we'll do photo, ph- photos now." Like- No, we went... I mean, we left there. We thought, "Oh my God, we're not gonna be able to walk down the street in Manhattan anymore. Everyone's gonna mow us down." Meanwhile, no one else noticed us. It's only happened there- Not one-... and in Crown Heights. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. But anyway.

1:27:39Well, as my wife would say, the, the, the, the, the, the most unpleasant experience these days is, is us when our family, when we fly to Israel, the LL- Oh... like, the gate, the LL gate- Oh... is, like... Right. Yeah. That's, that's a version of that. Yes. Yes. What you just described. Exactly. And she will s- and she will say, "Once we're seated on the plane, we're trapped." Oh. Yeah. [laughs] Right? Be- Wow... we're trapped. It's true. Right? It's sitting, you're like- Can you imagine getting... You need to buy the seat next to you if you're flying alone just in case somebody doesn't sit there. Yeah, she's like- Oh, God. She's like, yeah.

1:28:08Yeah. It's true. [laughs] It's true. Well, thank you so much, Dan, for giving us- Guys, this was fun.... your time. I, I got, I got pretty, uh, I got pretty revved up. I will say, I, I like the way, it was a very Jewish way to have this conversation that, like, who could out-worse- [laughs] Like, what was the most, the most awful thing. I know. Just to try to out-worse each other. That was good. I mean, literally, when we go out- That could be, like, a theme...

1:28:30we go out, my, in my family, my, my grandparents are Holocaust survivors, so I feel like I can say this, but, like, the way we- She's only showing off about her grandparents being Holocaust survivors... the way we, I do. The way we judge food is, like, would Bubbe have eaten it in 1945? If she would not have eaten it, that's how you know it was really bad, right? Like, if Bubbe would've eaten it in '45, okay, it's b- it's okay, you know? So that's how we- [laughs]... that's how we do everything, is out- Wow... out horror, the next thing. [laughs] Right. Come for the sports talk- Right... stay for the Holocaust jokes. [laughs] That's our- There you go...

1:28:58our tagline. And, and, and the hating on Brad Lander. Oh, anytime. Anytime. Thank you, Dan. Dan, thank you so much for your time. All right, guys. Good talking with you. [upbeat music]