Israel on Trial — with Judge Roy K. Altman

0:00[upbeat music] Hi, welcome back to Ask A Jew, where a secular sinful Israeli speaks to her wholly religious friend. Yael here with Chaya. Court is now in session. Oh, that's good. We are very excited to have Judge Roy Altman with us. Hello, Judge. Hello, thank you for having me. Uh, we're th- we're so excited. This... And we're kinda nervous too, right, Chaya? Well, I- Yeah... all of a sudden I started thinking I was doing something wrong without even- [laughs] I don't know what. And that's because you probably are. [laughs] Uh, yeah, it's true. He, and, and he know, he can tell too.

0:34That's part of his job, is mentalism. Oh, my Gosh. [laughs] So, I think, if that's how I understand how judges work. But we're here to talk to you... Uh, well, first of all, you're a federal judge in the Southern District of Florida, the youngest judge to ever have that title, if I'm not mistaken. I was the youngest when I was appointed, yes. Wow. Okay. Also, you're my age, which is very disturbing. Um- Wow... and we shouldn't talk about that. You look younger, though. For those of you who are just listening- [laughs] She looks younger.

1:00Always the right thing to say in any- Yeah... situation, by the way. In this case, it happens to be true. We met in person, so I know it to be a fact. [laughs] Very good. Very good. Uh, but we're here to talk about your new book, Israel on Trial: Examining the History, the Evidence and the Law. This is such a great book for people who are constantly struggling with stupid things that people are telling them about Israel. Mm-hmm. Because you really break this down legally- Mm-hmm...

1:26and take all the arguments against Israel and just destroy them, crush them in the palm of your hand. Um- Yeah... so we definitely recommend it. Buy it. Don't take it out of the library like a cheapskate. Actually buy it. Yeah. Pay. [laughs] Buy the har- It, it's only hard copy right now, right? Yeah. The, y- and the audiobook, which I read- Right... laboriously read, is, uh, is coming out, uh, I think in a week or two. Oh, wow. In two weeks' time. Was that a nightmare? I hear that's a nightmare. You know, it, first they wanted, they, they wanted to have, like, an actor, you know, get hired to do it. Mm-hmm.

1:58And I said, "Well, I don't think I want an actor. I wanna do it myself," because the book came out of these speeches that I was giving all over the country and, and, you know, tens of thousands of people had seen, had seen me speak. And so I figured that it would be cool to have it in my own voice. And, uh- Wow... and they said, "Absolutely not. Nobody's gonna like your voice." [laughs] But over time, I insisted and nagged and nagged. You know, this is about Jews, after all. And so- Yeah... so they, they relented and, and I ended up reading it myself, which took a lot longer than I thought. Mm.

2:29Because every time you screwed up, you gotta go back and do it again. But- Wow... it really was special, I'll say, to go through it the, that way again. And so, um, I'm glad that I did it. Okay. So buy whatever is the most expensive, either the- Yeah... audiobook or the hard copy. I think usually it's the audiobook is more expensive. Really? I don't know. Oh. Yeah. So, okay, before we get into the book, what, who are you? What's your background? Like, where, where do you hatch from? So I was, uh, I was born in m- in Venezuela, in Caracas. Oh. You know where that is?

3:01I've heard of it. Yeah. [laughs] So, yeah. Well, my, my grandparents when they got there in the '30s had probably never heard of it- [laughs]... and never knew it existed. They, they, my grandfather was coming from Romania- Wow... and, uh, he had been, um, essentially orphaned. His parents had been sent to the gulags in, [clears throat] in Russia, in Siberia. His, his mother was interned there. His father was killed there. Mm. And he was, I think, 10 years old or so, and, uh, lived with his Uncle Max.

3:29And then, um, when it became clear the Germans were coming, Max, uh, packed him up onto a train, and later a boat, hoping to come to America, I think. But, uh, we weren't taking enough Jews at that time, so he ended up- Oh... in Venezuela- Wow... a place whose language he definitely did not speak. And he came with only one possession, as I understand it, which was a kiddush cup- Wow... that his Uncle Max had given him. And actually, that's the same kiddush cup that we still use in my home on Friday nights- Oh...

3:57uh, with my children for Shabbat dinner. Wow. Wonderful. And, uh, he took a job as a bellhop at a hotel, learned Spanish. He was 16, I think. Never finished high school, but was a brilliant man. He spoke seven languages. And by the end of the war, he was the manager of the whole hotel chain, and he went back- Wow... to Europe to find his family. His father had been killed. His mother had been imprisoned. His sister, Sylvia, was in a concentration camp. She had a baby there. [gasps] Oh my. Her name is Claudie. She's still alive. She's my father's first cousin- Wow... and she lives in Caracas even today.

4:29And he basically said to them, "Look, there's a whole new world out there. They don't hate Jews. They don't know about Jews. Come with me." It's called Venezuela. [laughs] "And, uh, and we'll start a whole new life out there." And, and so they did, and they went west, and they met my grandmother, who was a waitress. This is a whole other story if you wanna get into it. We can talk about it. In Paris, um, and, uh- Wow... he tried to get her to marry him, but she was very French, so she stayed.

4:53[laughs] But she became a stewardess on Air France and, you know, they'd fly to Miami and to New York and to Caracas, and she would stay over and whatever. Wow. So they fell in love. They got married. They had three kids. The oldest was my father. And he went to Israel. He joined the Air Force. He went to engineering school- Wow... became an engineering officer in the Air Force, and, uh, ultimately met my mother, who was from Mexico. You see, we got every country in the world. Wow. Mm. You asked. We are a family. And I'll tell you. Yeah. Good.

5:20I always say, like, one of the best things I get to do as a federal judge is I get to naturalize our newest citizens, you know, 100 or 200- Oh... at a time. And, um, and it's, it's the only hearing we have in federal court where everybody goes home happy, you know? Right. Aw. Wait, only in Florida? Because I'm working on my naturalization now. Are you not naturalized? No, no. I have my- Where are you from?... biometrics appointment next week. I'm so excited. But where are you from? From Israel. Well, you have a very good American accent, let me tell you. Yeah.

5:48I watched a lot of American TV growing up. [laughs] Wow. That's pretty impressive. You don't say, like, "People." Yeah. [laughs] "People." Um, but, uh, anyway, yeah, so do, can I naturalize someone in New York? That's a good question I don't know the answer to that. Let's look into that because I'd be honored to naturalize you. Oh. I, like, naturalized one of my housekeepers. You know, it's like- That's so cool... a very special thing. That's so cool. I'm, like, giddy at the thought of getting my citizenship even though I've lived here for so many years. It's just, like, you know. It's very special. Yeah, it is.

6:16But I tell them, you know, I get the list of the countries they're all from, and I tell them that I'm from all of those countries, you know? [laughs] And they're all like, "Oh, this guy's full of..." I'm like, "Who's from Israel? Who's from Romania? Who's from France? Who's from Poland? Who's from Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela?" And I'm like, "I'm from all of those places." Wow. And everybody thinks, you know, that, that can't be true. And then of course by the time the story ends, it's, uh, it ends up being very true. What's it like for Jews- The American dream...

6:40what's it like for Jews in Venezuela today? Well, that's a good- Well, that's a good question because Jews, I think there were, like, 40 or 60,000 Jews there when, you know, in the heyday of the '70s and '80s- Right... when I was born. And, um, and unfortunately, I was actually at, uh, the ADL's offices the other day, and Jonathan Greenblatt showed me a time lapse of the Venezuelan Jewish, uh, community, and I think there's less than 4,000 left. Wow.

7:07Wow. And by the way, that's not just the Jewish community, um, that's true of Venezuelans generally. You know, the V- Right... the country had 24 million people, and 8 million, uh, have fled since- Wow... the regime took over in 1998. That's one third of the population. I- imagine that in America. We have 360 million Americans. Yeah. Wow. Imagine 120 million of us disappearing over 20 years. That's what's happened in Venezuela. I could pick which ones. And going to- I could pick the 120 million that's leaving. Yeah, if you could pick the 120- [laughs]... then maybe you'd be happy about that. I don't know.

7:37That's right. I can do it in a, in a day, yeah. Are they- That reminds me- Are the- One time, one time I had a, a case, a horrible case, murder case, when I was a federal prosecutor. And, uh, and the FBI agents, they came to me before the trial, and you know all the jail calls for the people in jail are recorded, you know? Yeah. And the agent said, "Oh, Judge, we..." You know, not judge. "Roy, we gotta, we gotta show you this jail call." And I said, "I don't have time to get the jail call. I gotta prepare for the trial, the evidence, and whatever." He said, "No, you, you're gonna laugh.

8:03You gotta listen to it." [laughs] And it was a call between this, this defendant and I think, like, his girlfriend or whatever, and he's telling her... And, and the l- her, this guy's lawyer's name was, was Al. Oh. And Al's a great guy. Actually, I saw him yesterday at an event. Mm-hmm. Great guy, Jewish guy, and a good lawyer. And, uh, and the, the defendant goes to his girlfriend, he says, "I had a dream last night, baby." And she said, "Oh, what was in your dream?" And he said, "I dreamt that everybody I had ever met in my whole life was on a cliff."

8:32[laughs] "And God came to me and told me I could kick only one person off the cliff if I wanted." [laughs] And she's like, "Oh, really? Who did you kick?" And he goes, "I kicked Al off the cliff." [laughs] Oh. [laughs] His own lawyer. So of course I happily turned over the call and was like, "Hey, maybe a little bit of discord in the attorney-client relationship." [laughs] Oh, my God. He was like- That's amazing... "I'm not surprised." Oh, my God. You must have so many stories from, like- Oh, there's a... The, the, the law clerks, my law clerks call it the vault. Yeah. Because it's like Mary Poppin's purse, you know?

9:03[laughs] You can go in there, and it's an infinite supply of, of, uh, stories you could never make up. You know they're not fiction because they're so much crazier than any human could conceive of. That's crazy. Yeah. I mean, I think people, um, underestimate, especially people who don't work, like, with the public a lot, which is most professions, they underestimate how just crazy a lot of people are, or irrational rather. Yeah. Or just ma- You know, people think that everybody's operating, like, on a rational, like, cost-benefit analysis of their life. Yeah. And no, some people just do silly things all the time.

9:39Since this is gonna be about Israel at some point, I should just say that this is a good segue because, you know, my wife is always like, "How is it possible that there's, like, a couple million people or whatever it is who listen to Nick Fuentes?" You know? Yeah. I know. Now, I've never listened to Nick Fuentes because I have a brain and a soul. Right. [laughs] But my understanding is he says insane things all the time. And she's like, "Well, how is it possible that there's, like, a couple of million people listening to him?" And I said, "And I don't wanna ruin everyone's day on this podcast, but when I became a federal prosecutor, I came to realize something that most people don't understand about this country and most countries in the world, which is there are these thousands and thousands of internet chat groups- Mm...

10:23each with hundreds and thousands of participants- Mm-hmm... where all day long they just trade the most disgusting child pornography- Mm... with each other, all day long. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, of course that's, like, a real shock when you come into the criminal justice system and you see that there's literally tens of thousands of people who this is what they do all day long. This is all over their phones, their computers. They're completely obsessed, and most Americans just don't understand that. Yeah. So if that's, like...

10:51I- in any group, the, the fallback proposition is any group of large, large numbers of people is gonna have people that are, like, insane, you know? Right. Or, or borderline insane, or whose mor- moral view of the world is, like, totally askew from everything, like, you know, most people in this country believe in. And so, like, you know, when you think there's, like, 5 million people who listen to Nick Fuentes or a few million people who, like, trade child pornography, it becomes easy to under- easier to understand that there's a few million kids in this country who wanna see the destruction of the only pluralistic- Mm...

11:23Western tolerant democracy in the Middle East, America's greatest ally on the planet- Mm. Mm... which votes, like, 95% of the time with America on the international stage, gives us all of the information we need secret- secretively, um, relayed, uh, about all of our biggest enemies in the Middle East, and then gives us, like, a free R&D laboratory that's worth- Mm... hundreds of billions of dollars over the course of every decade, just totally for free, in weapons and cybersecurity technology. Yeah, let's just, like, break off with that- [laughs]... incredibly important ally.

11:57Millions of people are chanting for that. When you know how many people trade child pornography all day or listen to Nick Fuentes, that becomes easier to understand. Oh, that's so true. Okay, fine. We'll talk about Israel, even though we wanted to talk more- No, we don't have to... about being a judge. [laughs] You made that point. No, but you mentioned, you mentioned, uh, technology and R&D. I have a funny story. I was talking to my father today in Tel Aviv- And he sent me this photo, and he said, "You know, all week there have been these two really bright dots in the sky.

12:25And the neighbors, we were all talking like, 'What is that? Is that some, like, weird surveillance thing? Is it American? Is it Israeli?'" And then they heard on the radio that, uh, Venus and Jupiter are now visible- [laughs]... from Tel Aviv. [laughs] So, but the Israeli mind always goes to, like, what is, you know, what is hovering above us that is either keeping us safe or trying to kill us? I, uh, I think that here in California. Yeah. [laughs] Okay.

12:47So how did you become a judge, before we get to Israel? First of all, what is a federal judge? Yeah. And then how do you- Can we become judges? Yeah. 'Cause Kyla and I are considering it, so what's the- I think I would be good at it. You guys look like you have good temperament and good judgment. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how I'd look in a robe, though, I feel like. Although, that's nice. It cov- like, you don't have to dress- Actually, the robe is good for a lot of... You know, like, if you're- Yeah... eating spaghetti sauce at lunch- [laughs] Mm...

13:09and it gets all over your shirt and tie, well, you don't wear a tie, but if it gets all over your blouse- Yeah. Yeah... and then you're like, "Well, I don't, doesn't matter because I'm gonna be wearing the robe all day." Oh, yeah. No, I want this job now. I'll, I'll apply. Yeah. But how- Wait, so how do you get into that? What is, wait, seriously, first what is it? And then how did you get there? So most people have seen, right, the map of the United States with 50 states- Mm-hmm... each with its own little color, right? You've seen that map many times.

13:32There's actually a second map of the United States that you don't learn about in grade school, and that's the map of our federal jurisdictions. Mm. And so unlike Israel, for example, where there's one, only one jurisdiction, the, the entire country, the United States actually has two layers of, uh, of governmental power. One is the state system, which we've talked about, and its many, many subdivisions, counties and parishes- Mm-hmm... and cities, et cetera. And then is the, there's the federal system, which has 93 or 94- Mm...

14:04depending on, had 93 or 94 districts. So instead of 50, imagine a new map- Mm-hmm... where it's broken up into 93 districts around the country, and each district has a US attorney that prosecutes federal crimes, and a federal public defender that defends, uh, those crimes, and a set of federal judges. Um- Mm... the bigger the district, uh, in terms of people, the more federal judges there are. But, you know, some districts, like the entire state of North Dakota, is one district- Mm. Yeah.

14:32And I think it has, like, two, literally two federal judges for all of North Dakota. Um, so what does a federal judge do? A federal judge handles cases that belong in federal court. Okay. And in order to get into federal court, you gotta, like, basically jump through a few hoops. So the most impor- the main two hoops are, one, you can get into federal court if you raise a question of federal law, and there are two main sources of federal law. One is the US Constitution. Mm.

15:01By the way, are you, if you guys are bored, we can move to something else, but- No, no, no. No. I, I love it. I need to learn all of this for my, for my kids. One, yeah, you definitely need to know this. Although- Yeah... I don't think they'll ask you about this. They might ask you, like, who's the first president? All right. [laughs] You know who the first president is, by the way? Uh, Barack Obama. Okay. Well, you're doing- [laughs]... you're doing okay. Now, that is a president, so you're, you're at least on the board. I was actually about to say Lincoln, but it was George Washington. [laughs] Wow.

15:20So we, we have to study. Maybe I'll, I'll be in your study group. Yeah. [laughs] So, um, anyway, there are two ways to come in through the federal law hoop. One is that you raise a claim under the US Constitution. So all the cases you see about abortion rights- Mm... gay rights, transgender, race, religion- Speech... guns, structure of government, immigration- Mm... all of those arise from the Constitution, and those are federal constitutional claims. Mm-hmm. Right? So we handle those. The second federal law, uh, hoop that you can get through is a federal statute. Okay? Mm.

15:54And so that's federal laws. The most common ones that you would know of are in the criminal context. So all federal criminal statutes, like the ones that prosecute terrorism offenses- Oh... or make it illegal to engage in international drug trafficking. Mm-hmm. Okay? So that's the second one. And then the... There's also civil laws, by the way, like the antitrust laws, which is called the Sherman Act- Mm... or trademark laws or copyright laws. These are all- Mm... civil federal laws that can get you into federal court. So that's one hoop, is making a claim under federal law.

16:25The second hoop is what we call diversity jurisdiction, but it has nothing to do with the word diversity that, you know, you have heard about- Mm... on college campuses- Not DEI... and whatever. Yeah. Definitely not DEI, but also not diversity, like, at all. Yeah. Diversity means that at the time of the founding, you know, these colonies, these 13 colonies, Georgia and New York- Right... they were, like, basically different countries. You know, they spoke different dialects of English. They had different legal systems. They, like, really saw each other as coming from different places.

16:55And of course, the re- the whole point of the Revolution was to, and, and later the Constitution, was to create one unified constituent whole, the United States of America. But still, there was a lot of, like, let's call it skepticism about these people from different states. And so what we didn't want is if there was a really big case that was between citizens of two different states. Let's call it one case from South Carol- one guy from South Carolina and another guy from Virginia, and the case was brought in Virginia. We didn't want a local Virginia judge- Mm...

17:28ruling on that big dispute, because we were afraid that he would, like, know the guy or be- Mm... like, neighbors with the guy, or his wife would have, like, played mahjong with the guy or whatever. Right. That's, y- you know, obviously an anachronism. [laughs] Nobody played mahjong in Virginia back then, but- [laughs]... it, I'm just, like, superimposing my own wife's- Yes... schedule on, on this chat. Exactly. [laughs] So she's in, like, three mahjong leagues. Anyway, so- I thought that was a big thing.

17:49Well, I just tell you, since I just met Yael in New York City this week, I'll tell you that my wife, after my speech at KJ, dragged me to, KJ's synagogue on the Upper East Side- Yeah... dragged me to the National Mahjong League office. You're kidding. Wow. Yes. And we went up there. She, it, uh, it was almost like we were walking up during the high holidays to the Beit Midrash. Okay? She- [laughs] I was gonna say, it's like Madison Square Garden- She was that reverential... and the Knicks are playing. That is so cute. You know, like, you can't turn your back to the door.

18:18[laughs] And you get there, and guess what is on the door? A mezuzah A mezuzah. Oh. A mezuzah. Yeah. [laughs] It's, it's mahjong- I think that's true, all the stereotypes are true. We are everywhere It's un- it's unbelievable. Look, one time I, I, I got into this, you know, I play a lot of mahjong with all the ladies, and, and- [laughs]... uh, it's, it's a real sexually discriminating sport, it's really wrong. They- I know... the, the gender discrimination is terrible. It's true. But I do, I have broken that, that glass ceiling, I'm happy to say.

18:45[laughs] And, and I do participate. And, um, and you know, one time I had a dispute, like, about what the card actually meant. You know, like, I'm a textualist as a judge, and I really felt like the, the card was being misinterpreted. [laughs] So we called the hotline. Do you know this? Oh my God. No. No. At the National Mahjong Office, and all these ladies were totally against me. [laughs] And I called the National Mahjong hotline, and you know, the lady that picks up, it's, like, out of a movie.

19:11She's like, "What do you want, honey? I got matzo ball soup all over me, so hurry up and ask your question." [laughs] You know? And I'm like, "Okay, I just have a..." Oh, God. And she had no time for me. Oh my God. Anyway, what was I saying? Diversity of jurisdiction. Wait, who was, but who was right? Yeah, who was right? We can all care about that now. Were you right? Oh, well, y- okay. Well, who was right, or who was adjudicated correct? [laughs] Those are two different stories. Did, did they ma- I mean- Did the la- did the ladies make fun of you when you lost?

19:33Well, the, the, the, the lady who was slathered in matzo ball soup at the office in New York ruled against me. [laughs] Uh, but- That's discrimination... I, I do, I do think it was because she could tell that I was a man. Yes. Uh, but, but, y- you know- True... whatever. [laughs] I'm not bitter about it at all. Um- Oh my God... anyway, so just to close the loop on diversity of jurisdiction- Yeah, yeah, so diversity... since you asked, at the founding, they said those cases, if they're big enough, which is to say they're for a certain threshold of money, and they're between citizens of different states, should be adjudicated by a federal judge, not a state judge.

20:04Okay. So that's what federal judges do. Hmm. So wait, so who... You get appointed, you don't get elected, right? Correct. So state judges often get elected, federal judges... So there's three branches of government in the federal system, the judiciary- Yeah. Are you, are you taking notes, Yael? I, I, oh, I know this. Oh, yeah. I don't see you taking notes. [laughs] Okay, so there's- The judiciary... the executive, right? Yeah. Where that, where the president is. There's the legislative- Mm-hmm... that's, uh, where Congress is. Congress.

20:26And then there's the judiciary, and that's, that's where I am. Mm-hmm. And, um, and, and in fact, of course, the judiciary in federal court is the only branch that has the power to invalidate, right- Right... to declare unconstitutional the acts of the other two branches, right? Mm-hmm. So Congress can p- pr- pass a law that the president then signs. Mm-hmm. It comes into law, and a federal judge can strike it down as unconstitutional. Oh, interesting. Right? And so- We're having a lot of fun with that in Israel right now, as you know. Correct.

20:53Okay, we can talk about that if you'd like. But the point is- That's a lot of power... that, that the... Exactly, so we need to be very careful about that power. Right. And since we're here for life, whether you like us or not, you can't be elected, you can't be thrown out, really, aside from impeachment, which is very rare. Wow. Because of that, it's really important that we be sure about the people that we're putting in these, uh, positions. And so the Constitution did something interesting, which they don't have in Israel, to your point, and that is that the two political branches both have to agree on- Oh... the person who's gonna be a federal judge. Hmm.

21:26So the president of the United States nominates you- Wow... and then the United States Senate has to confirm you. That's very- Wow... half. So you went through that whole thing? I went through it. Wow. And, you know, a lot of people complai- the, the process takes, like, two years nowadays. Back in the day, like, it used to take 30 days, but now everything's gotten much more acrimonious, as you've probably heard. Right. And, and, you know, people complain about it, but I actually think it's, it's something of a good thing in some ways, because although I think it does do something to deter people who might be- Right...

21:55good public servants from going through it, because they just don't wanna be- Mm-hmm... a part of a two, you know, two-year-old, um, um process- Process... I think it is good to make sure that people- Yeah... who are gonna wield this tremendous responsibility are the right people for the job. So maybe it shouldn't be two years, I mean, maybe that's too much, but I think being careful is not a bad thing. Do you have to be- Wait, so you now have-... a regular judge first? Do I have, do I have to answer both of your questions at once? Yeah. Yes, at the same time. Or when you both talk over each other can I just ignore it?

22:21[laughs] I was gonna ask, do you have to be a regular judge first? That's a good question. So most often, at least in Florida, most people who become federal judges were either state judges first, or they were federal magistrate judges. A federal magistrate judge are judges that we, the federal district judges, select to help us with our cases. Um, and we generally refer to them, like, things like attorneys' fees disputes and- Mm-hmm... non-dispositive matters, not, like, the end of the case, but discovery and things like that.

22:51And so usually federal judges are, used to be federal magistrate judges first, or they were state judges, either trial judges or appellate judges, or even state Supreme Court justices first, but I was not. I was just a, I was just a lonely lawyer- Mm... plying my trade, and, uh- Wow... I guess I got very lucky. Wow. You went straight into the PhD program from undergrad. Straight in. But, but- Straight in... and now you have a job for life. What a nice gig. And now I have a job for life, yeah. Wow. What if you wanna become a professional mahjong player? Can you leave?

23:20[laughs] You know, I think given my skill set at mahjong, I probably should keep the job I currently have. [laughs] Yeah, don't quit your day job. [laughs] Yeah. Wait, do you have... Okay, like, is there, like, a WhatsApp group with all the, like, federal judges? Do you, like, all sit around talking about- Uh, no... how powerful you are? But there is, there is, like... I don't know which one it is, but there is, like, some email list serve that you can- Oh, yeah... sh- like, shoot an email to all of us. Yeah. And, uh, and one time, somebody by accident did that- [laughs]...

23:47and it was about, like, a light bulb- [laughs]... that was, like, that was, like, in the courtroom, was flickering or something, and I think he wanted it fixed, and he was in the middle of trial, and s- I think he was, like, in Indiana or Ohio or something. And he sent it to all, like, whatever it is, 500 or 600 federal judges in the country. Oh my God. And, um, it led to, like, a huge... I, I, I mean, I, maybe I'm not supposed to even talk about this, but it led to this, like, ridiculous chain where, like, all these federal judges from all over the country- [laughs]...

24:13were like, "Unsubscribe, unsubscribe." [laughs] Like, "Get me off." But the more that people would say that, the, like, longer the chain would become. Right, right. And it was, like, this, like, vicious cycle we couldn't get out of. Somehow, I don't remember how, it ended after, like, three days. [laughs] It was really brutal. [laughs] You'd have, like, 600 emails from federal judges, you know, in the inbox. And then- Like three years later, you can't make this up- [laughs]... three years later [laughs] uh, someone again- [laughs]...

24:41made the same mistake and sent the email, and it again resulted- Oh, God... in like all these like acrimonious emails b- back and forth being like, "Unsubscribe me. Get this off me," blah, blah, blah. [laughs] And at the end of that huge chain of like 300 angry emails and whatever, three years later, some, some federal judge, I don't remember where he is, but it was very funny. He wrote, "Hey, did anybody ever fix that light bulb?" [laughs] And it was... I mean, I was in the courtroom- F my judge... and in tears reading it. He should- Yeah... be on the Supreme Court, that guy. Yeah.

25:10And he's like... This guy's brilliant. [laughs] That is so funny. So how did you... Okay, so you're a judge. You put people in jail or not or whatever, very exciting. Why did you write a book about Israel? Like you weren't in enough pain? What happened? I wrote a book about Israel because I was in a great deal of pain, and it wasn't really just October 7th. It was everything that happened after. You know? Yeah. I mean, I came to this country with nothing, knowing no one as a little boy, and my parents always taught me that in this country, if you worked hard and treated people with respect, you could be or do anything- Mm...

25:47because it was a country built on law and truth and justice, and I've always found that to be true. Um, you know, and I, I... I'll never forget, uh, I tell this story all the time. When I was an eight-year-old, all my va- family vacations as a kid were the same. We would go to Israel in the summer, and in the winter, Hanukkah or Christmas, we would go to Civil War battlefields, okay? [laughs] [clears throat] And it must have been like very strange to have these like Venezuelan- Mm... Mexican, Israeli kids traipsing about like Alabama, Georgia, Virginia every winter in, in a- Wow... Toyota Previa.

26:24You remember that car? Yeah. [laughs] And it looked like a buffalo. [laughs] But, um, but that's what we would do. And when I was eight years old, we were at Chattanooga, which is a really important battle in the Civil War. Mm-hmm. And I told this story the other day. I think Yael might have heard me tell this story. And, and it was... It's an amazing place in American history. I won't get into the battle unless you wanna know about it, but, but the point is a 17-year-old boy changes the course of American history- Mm...

26:48by, by just exemplifying bravery and patriotism and wins the battle, not by himself, but, but really makes a huge difference, and gets pinned with the Medal of Honor on top of Missionary Ridge in Chattanooga. And there's a plaque there commemorating it. By the way, the boy's name is Arthur MacArthur, which is- Mm... a preposterous name, I grant you. [laughs] Great name. But he would later become the- Not Jewish... father of Douglas MacArthur- Oh... the famous general- Mm... from World War II. Wow.

27:13Anyway, I'm standing there with my dad when I'm eight years old, and we're looking out over the battlefield, and, uh, and it started to snow. And you know, I grew up in three places, Miami, Caracas, Israel, not a lot of snow in my childhood. And so I turned to my dad and I said, "Papi, this is so beautiful. This is so fun," you know? And he got very serious and he said, "You think this is fun?" He goes, "You think that's why m- y- your mom and I bring you to these places?

27:38We bring you here so that you can understand the character of the country we brought you to." Wow. "We've brought you to a country where 600,000 men had to die so that a part of the country who were enslaved could be free." Wow. That's the level of devotion and dedication he's always said that a free and fair democracy requires and demands. And I've always felt that to be true, and that's why, by the way, when the president was gonna nominate me to be a federal judge, and I was like 34 years old, people were like, "That's ridiculous." Wow.

28:09"Wait till you're 60. You know, you got all your life to make money." To me, it was a no-brainer, you know- Mm... to have an opportunity to serve the country that had welcomed us with open arms, the country that had given us everything, has been the great honor and privilege of my life. But then I looked. 1,200 Jews were butchered and burned alive- Wow... mutilated and beheaded in their homes, in their kitchens, at their dance parties for peace. Mm. And yet on our Western campuses, places I went to school, we Jews were the oppressors. Mm-hmm. They raped dozens and dozens of Israeli women and girls. They committed the crime of kennicide, we now know. And I'm not trying to ruin everyone's day- No...

28:50listening to your podcast- It's important... but we have to speak the truth- Mm... because there's so much distortion. They forced men at gunpoint to have sex with their sisters and daughters, something we really haven't seen in the world since Rwanda. Mm. And yet in our Western media outlets, we Jews became the aggressors. They took 251 people hostage, stolen from their homes, and they stole them into deep, dark, dank holes, not just men and women, septuagenarians, octogenarians- Mm... Holocaust survivors in wheelchairs- Mm-hmm...

29:26and 24 infants and toddlers, and they held them there without food or oxygen or sunlight for hundreds of days. And yet at the United Nations, which was created in many ways to ensure that never again would anything like this happen to the Jewish people or to any people in the world, we Jews became the violators of human rights. Mm. It's preposterous. It's insane. Where does it come from? This moral inversion, this moral distortion of everything we have always believed in, everything we have ever cared about. How do we fix it?

30:11And that's really the journey I started to try to an- the question I tried to answer that led me on this journey of really giving speeches all over the country to... I've been, I've been to almost all 50 states in the last three years, to hundreds of schools, colleges, law schools, churches of every denomination, and I've had thousands of conversations with people about Israel, many of whom, by the way, see the world very differently than I do. Right. And what I came to realize is Each of these people who is chanting about Israel, they've come to believe one or more of these six main claims about Israel.

30:46And the good news is, each of the six claims is totally false. That's good news number one. Mm-hmm. And good news number two is they're all just legal claims at their core. We don't have to shout at each other about politics. You know, the problem with politics is that two people can shout at each other, and they have so much baggage politically, right? Right. That they are- they're never gonna find common ground, 'cause they're looking at different things that they're interested in and that they care about, and they're playing along different rules, right? Mm-hmm.

31:13You're not playing on the same field. But in the law, there's only one set of rules. Mm-hmm. It applies to everybody, whether you're Black, brown, or white, whether you're a man or a woman, whether you're Jewish, Muslim, or Christian. Everybody has to comply with the law, right? Mm-hmm. And so I thought, why not just apply the same legal methodology that we've been applying for hundreds of years in courtrooms and law offices all across this country, a methodology that we know we trust, right?

31:39'Cause we use it where truth-telling matters the most in our courtrooms- Right... to each of these six claims and see what happens. And that's how the book came about. Wow. And it, and it's very, it's very clear-cut, uh, which is what, what I like about it, is like you said, it's, it's not political- Mm... it's not emotional necessarily. It's, it's very clear-cut. And you, you talk, and, and I've also, I've, I've heard you speak about this, about how the IDF conducts war.

32:03And, and sometimes I think that people here think that Israel goes into Gaza like, uh, you know, like r- like the movie, you know, Rambo or something. They're just going in and, like shooting their guns. But you talk about some of the legal process behind, like finding a target and doing an airstrike. Like, can you tell us a little bit about that? This is so important, you know, because what people don't understand about Israel, and I, I, I've started to take federal judges from all over the country to Israel. Oh, good.

32:29And I've taken probably, I don't know, 10% of the entire active federal judiciary- Wow... in America in just the last three years. Did you use that email list? Did you email them all? [laughs] Yeah. On an email. I probably should use that. Yeah. That email list is, like, forbidden, you know? [laughs] So you put something on that email list, nobody'll come. [laughs] But I've taken, like, 10% of, of all the active federal judges, along with two of my friends, Lee Rudofsky in Arkansas and Matt Solomson in DC. And- Wow...

32:53and, um, you know, when we go to Israel, we see everything. Mm-hmm. And one of the things that people don't understand that, you know, some of our judges were JAG officers or military officers. Mm-hmm. That's cool. So they know intimately how America, for example, and other Western democracies perform these important cost-benefit analyses that have to take place- Right... in the context of urban warfare. These questions are made in real time. They're really hard, right? But they, no matter how right or wrong you are in each situation, they can't be genocide, right?

33:27Because the crime of genocide, the ultimate crime of ch- crimes, it applies only to people who don't engage in the computation, right? Mm-hmm. Mm. These are people who wanna kill every last human being, right? So for example, there's, uh, you know, I- Israel has these formulas, right? That they say, if you're a commander, then we have, like, a formula for, like, how many civilians who are collateral damage that you're surrounding yourself with as a human shield we would be willing to unfortunately have die if we kill- Right...

33:58a commander in Hamas who's bent on the destruction of all Jews in Israel, right? Right. Right. These are extremely agonizing choices. Mm-hmm. Nobody in Israel wants to be making these choices. They'd be much happier if Hamas would lay down its arms and the two countries could just live side by side in peace, but that's never gonna happen, right? Mm-hmm. Hamas, or at least not gonna happen while Hamas is in power. Hamas is devoted absolutely to Israel's destruction.

34:20So the point is that Israel, on a daily basis, strike by strike, has international legal scholars, these international lawyers, who are making these computations in real time- Mm-hmm... who are saying, "You can strike that target, even though there may be collateral consequences," or, "You cannot strike that target because the collateral consequences are too many." Mm-hmm. That's precisely... Whether you quibble with how this strike happened or that strike happened, as you would, by the way, with any army in the world, right? Right. Mm-hmm.

34:51As you would with any judicial decision that's ever been made by any judge, as you would with any decision that any human being has ever made, right? Humans make mistakes. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong. Sometimes we can reasonably disagree- Mm... about whether they got it right or wrong. The point is, that's not genocide, because that's precisely the kind of analysis and straight thinking and computation that international law demands, that we want- Right... to encourage- Mm-hmm...

35:20in armies that are fighting in the field. So, you know, just to go back to it, Israel has an entire army of these military advocate generals, they call them MAGs, they're the equival- equivalent of our JAGs, who are deployed in the field- Mm-hmm... with the military commanders, and who unlike our JAGs in the United States, who when they give advice, it's precatory, it's advisory, right? It can, it can be disregarded by the commander. In Israel, the MAG's advice is a mandatory order that must be followed. Oh.

35:51And we've seen dozens and dozens and dozens of videos of Hamas targets, there they are shooting rockets or whatever out of a hospital or mosque or school, and yes, they do that all the time. All the time. Or coming in or out of a UN vehicle, which happens all the time. Mm-hmm. And no, they're never wearing uniforms. They're dressed as women and whatever. And a pilot says, "I'm ready to strike him." And you see it there on the screen with the crosshairs and, and all the rest. And then something amazing happens. This nerdy Jewish lawyer- [laughs]...

36:26comes over the airwave, or maybe a commander with a lawyer sitting next to him, you know, giving his advice, and says, "Hey, what's that on the top right part of the screen?" Mm. "What's that on the bottom left part of the screen?" And the pilot will scroll and say, "Oh, that's three kids playing soccer 50 meters away," or, "That's two women holding a loaf of bread 25 meters away." And then it'll say, "Strike canceled." Mm-hmm. "Strike canceled. Strike canceled." Over and over again, these lawyers are making this difficult computation as just as international law requires.

36:58What you should know is that's the very opposite of genocide. Yeah. A genocidal regime, think of the Nazis, who pushed my mother's half brothers and sisters, four boys and a little girl, into the gas chambers at Auschwitz, right? Yeah. They were giving them a bar of soap and built those fake shower heads in the gas chamber. Why? To induce the civilians into the killing zone. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Does it make sense to think of the Nazis warning the civilians to get out of the killing zone or to cancel strikes that would harm too many civilians who were potentially in harm's way? Of course not.

37:35That's inconceivable even to- Right... think about that thought experiment, 'cause the whole purpose of a genocide, whether in Rwanda or in Armenia- Mm-hmm... or in, or in the Holocaust, was to put the civilians in harm's way, not out of harm's way. Right. But Israel does the opposite every single day, which is the exact opposite- Mm-hmm... and totally incompatible with the claim of genocide. Wow. It's in- insanity. It's just absolutely insane. I don't know how we got here, you know?

38:02It's, it, the, the, the, these claims that you refute in the, in the book, you know, uh, you talk about genocide, you talk about apartheid, uh, colonialism. Uh, you know, these are not things that anti-Semites believe. These are things that a lot of nice, normal, well-meaning, well-read people- Yeah... believe now. Uh- This is, this is what it looks like to be in an information war- Mm-hmm... that we did not know had started. Right. And that's a little bit of the problem, is that, you know, there were people on the forefront of this before October 7th.

38:32But the vast majority of, of Jews and the vast majority of freedom-loving Americans who love Western civilization and are willing to fight to protect it, we were asleep at the wheel. Mm-hmm. We thought, you know, we had defeated the Nazis, we had won the Cold War, the, the te- uh, ISIS was destroyed, we had pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan. We could focus on, you know- Right... uh, whatever silly television show w- really was grabbing everyone's attention, and we were wrong. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We were just wrong. Our enemies were fighting this war and have been- Yeah...

39:05for 20 years, spending billions and billions of dollars infiltrating our high schools, our middle schools- Mm-hmm... our college and law school campuses, and our Western media outlets. Mm-hmm. And we have just done, not done enough to combat it. You know, I, I always, I like to say, you know, when I was a pitcher in college, which is like my least Jewish trait, by the way- [laughs] My, my coach would say- You played baseball and football, right? I played baseball and football in college, yeah. And so- Ugh... my, my pitcher coach, Jim Fay- Is there anything you're not great at? This is so annoying. Mahjong. Oh- Oh, okay. Right. Okay, good...

39:37although I'm not very good at Mahjong. Okay. It all comes- I mean, my, my wife is gonna have a field day with this episode. [laughs] But anyway, point is, my coach, he would say, he would say, "Meet me out in the bullpen." You know? So I would get my gear, walk out to the bullpen. He'd like sprint by, and I'd get to the bullpen, and he'd say, "Hey, 50 pushups, Altman." Mm-hmm. And I'd say, "Why 50 pushups?" And he'd say, "'Cause you lost the race." Hmm.

39:57And I said, "Well, I didn't know there was a race." And he always said, "In life, it's always a race." Wow. And we Jews forgot that. Hmm. We got fat and lazy and complacent, and we were nice and comfy and cozy in our beds, sleeping to whatever tune had been played for us while our enemies were sprinting by us, and have been for 20 or 30 years, since the Holy Land g- uh, Foundation got caught red-handed and indicted. Mm-hmm. Yeah. They've never gone to sleep, even since then. Yeah.

40:26And what gives me hope and optimism, by the way, is that I believe America is the greatest force for good, the most powerful engine of innovation and knowledge the world has ever known. I believe that the Jewish people, which brought us, by the way, Jesus Christ- [laughs]... monotheism, the Bible, and a system of political equality before God that was, I think- Very side note... a precursor- Mm-hmm... to everything that we believe in in Western civilization. Hmm. Those are the most righteous, just, and powerful causes the world has ever known, and now we're awake to the danger all around us. Mm-hmm.

41:01And so while they have a huge head start because of how long they've been fighting this information war while we were asleep, I think we'll start to catch up in short order. Oh, good. Mm-hmm. I'm happy to hear that optimism. Yeah. A- And you talk to people all over the country, right? I mean, you know, we, we meet, uh, meet a lot of people in New York and LA, on the coasts. But you actually go, you speak to federal judges. You bring them to Israel, then you go talk. You, you...

41:26I heard you mention, by the way, I don't know if I understood this correctly, that there's the federal judge in Arkansas is Jewish? Yes. Which- He's a wonderful man, by the way... I kinda love that for him and for us. But what- His name is Lee Rudofsky. Lee Rudofsky. Amazing. A great American. I love that. Um, but what are you hearing when you... You know, y- you bring these judges to Israel, then you come and, you know, you speak in their different states. What are you hearing from average Americans? Well, it just depends.

41:52You know, I mean, I, I, I like to say that I break m- most people up into three buckets. Mm-hmm. On, on the f- one side, there's about 10% of the country that's vehemently anti-Israel, uh, and mostly anti-American as well. Those things are very much entwined. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, I think, uh, the, it's not more than that, uh, but it is a, it is a, a group of people that is growing. That number was lower, uh, 10 or 20 years ago. On the other side of the scale, there's, there's probably 30% of the country that's deeply pro-Israel- Mm-hmm... pro-Jewish community- Mm... deeply patriotic.

42:27These are evangelical Christians, the LDS community- Mm-hmm... a lot of Catholics, and some smattering of Jews. Mm-hmm. And, um, and you know, I think these people viscerally understand that, that w- when Lincoln said America was an almost chosen people- Hmm... that he was hearkening back to the ancient Jewish tradition which founds, which was the bulwark and really the foundation stone of everything we believe in in America. Mm-hmm. Right. A system of laws that's based on religious freedom, pluralism- Freedom of speech, and of course, a meritocratic society that's built on the pursuit of justice.

43:02Those are all the values of America, and they're the values of the Jewish people. And that leaves like 60% in the broad middle. Who, who are those people? Yeah. Well, they're good Americans. They, uh... If they're at work, they want good-paying jobs, and they wanna put their kids in safe and secure schools. Right. They wanna get promoted at work. If they're in, you know, on campus, they wanna meet a girl or a boy, they want their football team to win on Saturday, they wanna get a good job after school. They're not, like, so overly concerned- Mm-hmm...

43:31with this teeny, tiny country in the desert thousands of miles away with a few Jews in it. And why should they be, right? Why, why- Mm-hmm... is it the biggest news story all the time? I know. It's because the Qataris want you to think about it all the time. Right. Because the Iranians want you to think about it, because the Russians and Chinese, the enemies of America, want us to think about it all the time so they can peel the two away from each other.

43:53But here's the thing about that 60%. That 60%, they're open-minded, they're people of good faith, and if you were to drill down deep into their soul, at the very core you would find that the vast majority of them, their guiding principle is they believe in a society that follows the rules. Mm. Mm. And if we can just go show them- Yeah... with reason and logic and common sense, not shouting and politics and this party and that party. Nobody wants that.

44:21If we can show them based on facts, the law, reason, and common sense that one side in this struggle loves America, is intimately entwined with the fabric of Western society, fights for it, props it up, is resilient, and follows the law, even if they're imperfect, just like all collections of human beings are imperfect. And the other side not just violates and ignores the law, has created- Yeah... a contortion of the law, such a contortion that they hope will lead to the law swallowing the entire rule-based order itself.

44:56If you can show them- Mm-hmm... that that's how stark the divide is between the two, then I think for most of the people in that broad middle, the choice will become quite obvious. But it's incumbent on us as Americans who care, who seek the truth, and who know what's really going on on the ground, to go out there and tell them. And in that regard, I should say this last thing, and that's that, you know, one of the criticism of my books, my book that I get from Jews especially is, "Oh, this is... You know, shouldn't be doing that.

45:22You put Israel on trial, now Israel's the defendant. That's so wrong because we should put Hamas in the defendant's dock." Yeah. "You know, we shouldn't make Israel the defendant. We should just ignore, these arguments are ridiculous. We should ignore them." That's a big, big mistake. Yeah. Okay? That's what we've been doing for 20 or 30 years. We've assumed that if the... You know, since they're so absurd, the genocide claim, apartheid claim, colonialism, nobody would listen to them.

45:48But we forgot the very simple reality that in the law, if you don't respond to a motion, the judge grants that motion by default. Right. In a sports game, if the other team shows up to the field and your team doesn't, you forfeit and lose. Mm-hmm. In politics, as Hitler and Goebbels made clear, if you tell a lie that's unrebutted long enough and loudly enough, over time people will believe it, because it will lodge itself into their collective subconscious.

46:17So for 20 or 30 years, we've been following that playbook. Ignore it. Don't address it. And that was a fatal and tremendous mistake. Mm-hmm. And I think with this book and with enough Americans who are out there trying to be apostles of the truth and ambassadors of our democracy, we can start to stem the tide. It's so interesting because I think within the in- internal Jewish community, we've been having this conversation since October 7th. How do we address it, right?

46:44Like, do we get out there in front of it and try to s- do these campaigns to educate people? And there's a big group of Jews who are like, "No, let's ignore it. Let's just forget about it," like you said. Mm-hmm. And you know, I work on campus. I work for Hillel on campus, so we, we, we face this every day. And I've changed a lot, because I think I thought I was doing the work before, right? But then I realized we were not doing what we needed to do.

47:09We thought that by hosting falafel night and getting everyone together to eat falafel because Arabs and Jews love falafel, that this was gonna be, like, the future of, you know, bridge-building. But we never wanted to talk about the hard topics. We never wanted to address what does it mean for a country to be apartheid, and what it mean... When it's not, what does that look like, right? Or what is genocide? What's not genocide? We don't want to. It's hard. And I think Jews don't have the confidence to be able to have those conversations, and I think that's why your book is so important.

47:40Because even as a person who believes themselves to be pro-Israel, to be a Zionist, to be somebody out there, if you don't have the words to have the conversation, you're useless- Mm-hmm... and you won't engage. And so it's really important that you wrote the book, even for... I mean, like, for sure for people who don't believe it, but even for people who believe it, they need the language around it, and that's really the gift that you gave to the pro-Israel and Jewish community.

48:04And let me tell you, I've had dozens and dozens of people reach out to me in chambers and through friends and family, people I don't know from all over the country- Yeah... to say that they were against Israel, they were on the fence about Israel. They had heard terrible things about Israel. They didn't know that much about it, but they read the book. Somebody gave it to them. Somebody forced them to read it, whatever it was. [laughs] And they didn't know any of the things in there. Yeah, yeah. And they're never gonna think those things again. Mm-hmm.

48:29This is how you win hearts and minds, by ch- teaching people the truth, by having the respect and the dignity for other Americans- Right... to have the optimism that they are willing to engage, even in the social media age. Mm-hmm. By the way, if we're not... If we're gonna assume it's a post-fact world, we just wanna throw up our hands, then the entire experiment will be, will- Right... will be destroyed. Yeah. And, and I, I'm not gonna be that guy. I, I'm not- Right.

48:54I'm gonna, I'm gonna fight until the very end, and I think that it's a fight not only that's worth fighting, but that we can, we can very much win Yeah. And it's... I- The one thing I always tell people is, especially in New York, if they're on the fence or they don't know anything, I always tell them, "L- look at the protests. Look at the pro-Israel protests and look at the anti-Israel protests, and ask yourself which side has American flags in it." Right.

49:20Every pro-Israel protest I've been to, or every synagogue I've been to, there's always American flags, singing the national anthem. We're so proud to be Americans. And a Palestinian protest, you know, it c- it comes together with what you said. It's, like, very kind of post-bor- It's ironic because they're trying to take over a country, but it's very post-borders. Mm-hmm. You know, post-America. We, we don't care about the, the, the, the what our people did here before us, how they built this nation, all the amazing gifts that they gave us.

49:52Uh, one time I told this to a cop, and I s- you know, I, about the differences, and he thought about it and he said, "No, actually, I have seen American flags in Palestinian protests. They just bring them to burn them." Hmm. So, you know- [laughs]... it's, for somebody who doesn't know much, I think it's a very important distinction. Mm-hmm. I- it's also because a lot of it has been bought and paid for by America's geostrategic enemies, you know? Mm-hmm. I mean, forget the Jews. You know, the Jews, we're a tiny percentage of the overall global population.

50:21Yeah. We really don't affect elections. Yeah. We just don't. I mean, no matter what these podcasters say, we're just too small. I know Thomas Massie seems to think otherwise, but yeah. It's, it's absurd, right? I mean, it's, it's... He lost for one reason, and one reason... I'm not gonna get into that. Yeah. But the point is that it's absurd. Mm-hmm. The, the reality is this is an information campaign that's meant to destroy America, and it's bought and paid for by our geostrategic adversaries, and it's the Muslim Brotherhood, and it's Iran, and Russia- Mm-hmm...

50:49and China who are coming after young Americans because they realize they're not gonna beat America military. Look what's happening. Mm-hmm. Right? Iran's S-400 defense systems are rendered obsolete by a teeny-tiny country thousands of miles away. Mm-hmm. Its economy is on the verge of financial collapse. Russia, bogged down in a war against a much smaller, depopulated by, in r- in relative terms, and a supposedly much weaker foe. China, a big army, but their economy is shrinking every year vis-a-vis our American economy, and they have a demographic problem because of the one child policy.

51:24Will Chinese mothers be willing to send their only son- Mm.... to go conquer an island far, far away, let alone to get into a geostrategic war with the biggest power in the world? Who knows? I don't know. Right. You don't know, and guess who else doesn't know? The Chinese don't know- Mm-hmm... and that's deeply disconcerting to them. So they are not super confident that they can fight the United States if it's fighting with its allies, so they want to peel those allies away from the United States. And when they look at the United States, they...

51:53I don't think they're that afraid of the Belgians- [laughs]... or the Australians, or the Spaniards, or the Irish, right? All these- I know. Have you seen a drunk Australian? They're- Yeah. They can get pretty feisty. I mean, these people, these countries, none of them were willing to help with, with Iran now or with Hormuz. Yeah. None of them will be, should be trusted to help us at any point with anything important in the future. But there are two allies, right, who have been w- showing themselves to be willing to fight and to die for all the things that we believe in. Mm-hmm. For the rule-based order. Mm-hmm.

52:25For pluralism, for religious tolerance, for democracy. Who are they? Israel and Ukraine. Mm-hmm. Who have shown themselves to be the kinds of allies who can fight and win the wars of the 21st century. So is it any surprise that the vast majority of the negative information we get about the other 192 countries in the world... Remember, there's 193 countries. We're one, there's 192 others. [laughs] The vast majority of the negative information we see on the internet about the other 192 countries of the world, it's about those two countries. What a surprise. Yeah.

53:01In the law, we always say to jurors- It's so true... "Ask yourselves, who benefits from this fact?" Well, who benefits from the fact that all this negative information is polarizing Americans about the only two geostrategic allies that we can trust in a real 21st century war? Obviously, China, Russia, and Iran. Mm-hmm. We gotta know that. Yeah. They- Wow... they know they can't, they can't kill all of us, right? They, I think they've learned that, that they can't...

53:27They're probably not gonna dismantle the whole country, but they can- found other ways that are, unfortunately, you know, seem to be pretty successful in the, in the public sphere. Yeah. Okay. Well, one last question each, I guess, 'cause we don't have that much more time. [laughs] But I wanna know, like, when you go out with friends or you're at home, do you demand that everyone treats you like a judge? Like, do you have a gavel with you, and, like, at dinner, like, you bang on the gavel? Do you carry a gavel with you? [laughs] If I did that, if I did that, nobody would be... I would have no friends. Yeah.

53:55[laughs] Uh, but in fact, it's, it's quite the opposite. You know, I like to say that in my home, if Roy says something- [laughs]... and Rachel, that's my wife, doesn't hear it- [laughs]... is he still wrong, you know? Yeah. [laughs] And that's a meta... By the way, she answers that question obviously. Yeah. He's obviously still wrong. Yeah. I think it's a metaphysical question, am I still wrong if she didn't hear me? But that's the kind of household I live in. In fact, I'll tell you one story, and that is that, you know, at some- We, we went to, like, a baseball game. I was coaching.

54:24So I gave my wife my cell phone to take, like, pictures of me with the kids. And by the way, the team's name is the Maccabees. Aw. Okay? And I teach them about the real-life Maccabees- Yeah... who are out there fighting for our freedom. Anyway, so she took a bunch of photos and, and then at the end of the game, she gave me back my phone, and then the next... Like, on Monday, I go to work, and I look for my wife's phone number in my phone, and I can't find it anywhere, you know? [laughs] And I'm like, "What is going on here? It's so weird. I can't find her phone number."

54:53Anyway, at some point, one of my law clerks is holding my phone 'cause she's taking a picture of me with another law clerk, and the phone rings. And she's like, "Judge, oh, my God, the Supreme Court is calling you," you know? [laughs] And so I'm like, "Oh, which one do we think it is?" You know? [laughs] And so I take the phone- And it was my wife, you know [laughs] And she had changed the name for her number on my phone- That's amazing... to The Supreme Court. My lady. So that shows you a little bit about what that looks like. That is so good.

55:19[laughs] That's so good. I had a, I had a boss who was a former general, and whenever his wife called, he said, "Oh, it's the chief of staff is calling." [laughs] There we go. [laughs] So, uh, okay, one last question from me. Uh, you've taken so many federal judges to Israel from probably very different states, very different backgrounds. Any funny stories that stand out in particular in these culture clashes? Oh. Well, first of all, I mean, I think every judge that we have taken has been completely transformed- Mm-hmm... by what they have seen there.

55:48The resilience of the people, the hopefulness and optimism of the population in the face of unbelievable odds, attacks from all sides. Mm. Um, the extent to which I think all of them come away understanding that although they had come to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Jewish people to learn about the Jewish state and to understand a little bit more about Israel's legal system, they had actually left having a newfound appreciation that they had actually left the place that represented their own history- Mm.

56:25Mm... their own heritage, and their own people. Mm. Because I think you can't help but see that the entire Judeo-Christian tradition- Mm... comes from one land, and that's the Holy Land. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And one city, and that's the City of David. And, and so in that respect, these, these trips have been extremely inspiring and meaningful. Mm-hmm. And you know what? I think one, one time I was with, uh... I'll just tell you this. I was with... This is why it's so important to take people there.

56:50I was with a, a friend of mine who's a Black judge in America, and he saw, um, all these, you know, Black Jews, and white Jews, and- Mm... um, Druze, uh, soldiers. They were all soldiers in Mahane Yehuda, and they were having a great time drinking, and eating pita, and whatever, and dancing. And he looked at me, he was like, "Man." He's like, "This is the most diverse place I've ever seen." Mm. "I thought you were all gonna be just a bunch of white people."

57:16[laughs] And he had no idea, he said, that there were really Black people fighting and dying in this war- Mm... but only on one side of the conflict. Mm. Mm. The Jewish side. That's right. Yeah. And that, to him, was a tremendous revelation, and it's just a tiny microcosm of why it's so important for people to bring other people to Israel. I agree. And so people ask me all the time, "Oh, what should we do?" You know, "What can we do?" And there are lots of things you can do, but one of the things is, you know, I'm a judge, so I take judges to Israel, right?

57:47But you're a marine biologist, like my wife, take 20 marine biologists to Israel. Mm. You're a lawyer, take 20 lawyers. You're a dentist, take 20 dentists to Israel- That's a great idea... who are not Jewish, who otherwise wouldn't go. Because it really opens their eyes to how special of a country and place it is, to how unbelievably- Yeah... meaningful the experience is, and to how much respect and support we should have for the one and only democracy in the entire region. Yeah, and it, it's just so different. Yeah.

58:15Well, that's why we have to get our Ask A Jew trip off the ground. We have to get our Ask A Jew trip off the ground. That's it. We're doing it. We're taking you guys to Israel. Our listeners keep bugging us about it. I know. We're going. We're doing it. But I, I had an, I had a ex-boyfriend who was a Marine, and we went to Israel and we stood on the, on Mount Bental, you know- Mm... where you overlook Syria- In the north... and Lebanon, and you can see, you could see the ISIS convoys with your eyes. Mm. And we stood on that mountain, he was like, "I get it." Mm. You know, just by seeing, like, the size of the country and, and the- Mm...

58:42you know, just how, how fragile it is. Absolutely. Well, thank you for writing the book. Thanks for- Thank you, Judge Roy Altman... being a judge. The book is called Israel on Trial. You're a, you're a great American. [laughs] And- You're almost a great American. Almost a great A- He almost is I'm almost great and almost an American. [laughs] [laughs] Well, it's great to be here with you guys. That was really fun. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

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