The Jews Cannot Survive on Hate Alone

0:00[upbeat music] Hi, welcome back to Ask a Jew. We're a secular sinful Israeli to speak to your holy religious friend. I'm Yael, here with Chaia Lai. We are the boots on the ground of the Jewish people. [laughs] Uh, Happy Passover. Happy Passover, our rabbi, Rabbi David Wolpe. [claps hands] Hi, Rabbi. Chag Sameach. Happy Passover. Chag Sameach. If you don't know Rabbi Wolpe, he's, uh, the... I, I like to call you the rabbi to the stars. Um- I know... but more importantly, perhaps, the rabbi in residence of the Maimonides Fund, and formerly, um, rabbi emeritus at Sinai Temple in LA.

0:40You had a little stint at Harvard- [laughs]... um, that we can talk about. We talked a little bit about it last time. Um, and you're here, I think we didn't tell you this, but you're here to cheer us up. [laughs] Good. Yeah. Happy- So tell us- Happy to take on that assignment. Okay, good. Yeah, yeah. So tell us about all the good things that are happening to the Jewish people worldwide. [laughs] So I said to my... I, I, you know, as you said, I'm emeritus at Sinai, but every now and then they wheel the old guy back in just to- [laughs]... show that I still like them, and they still like me.

1:10Um, and a couple weeks ago, I gave the sermon, and I said, "Look, you know, tomorrow, there will be no headline that says, 'Thousands of synagogues had Shabbat services where people prayed and sang together, and nothing bad happened.'" Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And this is part of the reality of human nature, but also of the Jewish people. You know, Abba Eban said, "Jews like their clouds without silver linings." [laughs] So a lot of times we don't realize how fortunate we are f- first of all, compared to our ancestors- Mm-hmm... um, but even just in general in the world.

1:49I always tell Jews they have more friends than they think- Mm... and things are better than you would think, because every time there is news, it's news about something bad. Right. Yeah. Otherwise, it's not news. Yeah. So I think it's important to keep in mind how much is going good and going well without minimizing that we have real challenges and genuine problems. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I was talking to my father in Israel, and, you know, everybody's...

2:17I think at the beginning of the war, there was a bit of a, a high and, you know, people were excited and hoping that it will finally, you know, end this, this terrible, uh, Iranian regime, and now everybody's just sleepless and annoyed. Um, so I was talking to my father yesterday and he said, "What? They promised us tens of thousands of missiles, and they promised us that Tel Aviv would be burning." Right. "And look, you know, we're just so, uh, y- you know," It's like... the, the, "It could be worse" is a really big part of the Jewish people, I think. [laughs] It could be worse, and a lot of it is really good. Yeah.

2:51A lot of it... I mean, one of the funny things, it's like... And I under- Let me... Again, don't mean to minimize the problems. I know. But how often am I sitting, like, in salons in Beverly Hills and listening to all these people, you know, sipping their club sodas and saying, "Things are so bad." [laughs] And I say, like, "Look at yourself." [laughs] I mean, your ancestors would give anything to be- I know... where you are. I know. And yes, we have serious challenges, but, like, remember where we were 70, 80 years ago. Um, I think that we are, uh...

3:26And also, the other thing to remember, and you should know that I'm, like, constitutionally optimistic. I, I admit to that. [laughs] I confess. [laughs] In that sense, I'm not very Jewish. I like... I, I really am a- [laughs]... I'm a glass half full kind of person. Um, but, uh, but also remember that, um, we have more voice, more resources, more ability, more power than ever in Jewish history. Yeah. And so it's not just that things are often going well, it's also that we have some agency to help change them. Mm. What do we do about the fact that...

4:04Uh, I mean, I totally agree with you, and as a Hasid, I obviously always wanna look at the bright side and try to think of the good things that are going on. But what do we do about the fact that so many people are personally miserable? I mean, it's, it's, it, it's one thing we have... Okay, we could talk about antisemitism and war and all these problems, and I, I think you're absolutely right that there's so much going right for the Jewish people.

4:27But people, I find, when I talk to people one-on-one, there's so much suffering and pain and misery, and that's a piece that I just... I don't know what we can do differently or how to, how to tackle this issue. So I would say two things about that. One is, um, I remember many years ago reading Andre Malraux, uh, autobiography called Anti-Memoirs, and in it he talks about how he, uh, he fought in the war with this very formidable, like, huge guy, and he comes and he sees him 30 years later, and he turned out to be a parish priest.

5:04And he says, "Look, you've spent decades listening to people in confession. What have you learned about human nature?" And Malraux says, he says, "I'm not really allowed to take anything out of the confessional- [laughs]... but I will tell you two things. One is that there is more pain in the world than I ever imagined." Mm. "And the second is that there's no such thing as a grown-up." Mm. Mm-hmm. And, and when I heard that, you know what it made me think of right away? It made me think of the fact that the Torah ends in the wilderness.

5:35Mm-hmm. Right? At the end of Devarim, at the end of Deuteronomy, the Jews are not in the promised land yet. It's a book without an ending- Mm... because that's the reality of human life, until redemption, is we all live in the wilderness. So part of it is our expectation that life will be without pain makes us feel more pain. Right. Um, we should not expect that life will be frictionless. And also- Israelites are called the children of Israel, Bnei Yisrael. So we're all children of the wilderness. There's gonna be pain in life. I think screen...

6:10The second point I wanted to make is screens and, and the availability of instant, constant information absolutely exacerbates that. Right. As a simple example, a little, uh, some days ago, as you know, there was a ground crash at LaGuardia. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I do a lot of flying. Do you know how many people called me and said, "I certainly hope you're not gonna fly into LaGuardia." And I thought- [laughs]... really? But, like, thousands of planes go into that airport every single day, and there was a ground crash, and that's bad, and they will investigate it, and so on. But we're so- Yeah...

6:46inured to positive news and so reactive to negative news that I think if we spread that message, it might help a little bit. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I appreciate that. Yeah, social media doesn't help- No... either... in fact, it's, it's really toxic, and that's why it's called doom scrolling. The- Yeah... and what people are looking for is things that will give them an emotional rise. And it's built into our DNA that we get more out of negativity than positivity. The, um, if you, in ancient times, you walk by a fruit tree and you didn't notice it, you were fine. Mm-hmm.

7:23You walk by a tiger and you didn't notice him, you were dead. [laughs] Right. So we're really triggered by anything negative, and if you wanna get more clicks, more attention, you do negative stuff. Um, I will give you a scoop. It's not my- [laughs] It's not really a scoop, but- [laughs] Uh, but I just finished an article that is coming out right before Pesach, uh, for the Dispatch, uh, which is how much should we emphasize antisemitism as opposed to all these other things and, you know, the good learning and so on and so forth. Mm-hmm. And my answer was the Haggadah gives us the answer. Mm.

8:01The Haggadah is like a perfect manual. Mm-hmm. It says in every generation, there will be people who will rise up to destroy us. It, we open the door and say to God, "Pour out your wrath- Mm-hmm... on those who..." Not, we don't say our own wrath, just God's wrath. Mm-hmm. But that's not what the Seder is about. Mm-hmm. It's about liberation. It's about reaching the promised land, and it's about children. That's why you have all those songs at the end. Right. Mm-hmm. So I think if we took the Haggadah attitude, we'd be much healthier. Wait, there's a second part to the Seder after the food? [laughs] Oh my God, yeah, Al.

8:41Wait, Rabbi, I wanna ask you, how many WhatsApp groups are you part of where people- Oh my God... constantly share- [laughs]... every day something terrible that some D-list celebrity said about Israel? I am going, I, I, all I can tell you is I confess this only to you, and don't tell anyone. [laughs] But I almost never read. I just go to my WhatsApp, and I hit the bottom button- I know... so that it scrolls all the way down 'cause each... Yes, there are so many. [laughs] If anybody- Now it gives you an AI summary, which is pretty funny, actually... right. Anything slighting about Israel- I know...

9:18if some teenager in Des Moines paints a swastika on the sidewalk- I know... the Jewish community goes into a frenzy. And again, I say this not because the rise of antisemitism isn't real on the left and the right, and, and Islamist antisemitism isn't real, and they aren't threats. They very much are. Um, but they're not all that's going on. Right. Mm-hmm. A lot more is going on. I know. I know. Yeah, I al- Well, what's going on in the Orthodox WhatsApp groups right now is every day a relative has to post the daily Nassi 'cause for 12 days before Pesach, we say, there's a special prayer we say.

9:58[laughs] And so someone always takes it upon themselves to remind the WhatsApp chat. So I get seven of them a day, a reminder- Wow... with the daily Nassi. So i- I'm sure every Orthodox family has their... Thank you. I'm, I, I'm not, I wanna thank my relatives who do that. [laughs] But no, it's, uh, it's, it's a daily, uh... That's what we're dealing with right now. Well, between that and, and the red alert notifications. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I know. That's hard also. Yeah, I- But then we get the Sefira notifications because we have to count Sefira, so- Right... I count that also I get Sefira notifications. That I get.

10:30Um, but I, I will tell you, I don't know about you, but I turn all sound off on my phone except for calls. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It doesn't ding for text. It doesn't ding for WhatsApp. Yeah. It doesn't, you know, all of that. Um, and most of my WhatsApp groups are muted until I open WhatsApp- Mm... because, because I'm too OCD-ish. I would, like, "Oh my God, I have 600. I have to go through them." Yeah. I'm one of those people who has an empty inbox. You do? Wow. I can't. Oh. I can't. I just can't. You're a holy man. I just can't. I can't either. So- Yeah... if somebody- That's incredible...

11:02if somebody writes me, I j- people are always saying, "You wrote back so quickly." And I wanna say, "It's actually a malady." Yeah. "It's a problem." [laughs] It's not because, because I'm such a nice guy. It's because I can't stand to see all those emails in my inbox. Oh my God. That's good though. That's, that's very millennial of you to have your phone on silent. That's- Yeah. You know? Yeah, that's true. I don't think my, my ringtone is because- Well, it's- It's always on silent, but it's always connected to my hand, so it doesn't matter. Isn't it funny that we used to pay money to buy ringtones- Oh, yeah...

11:30and now I haven't had my phone on in years. I, I don't turn my ringtone on ever. I, I don't. I still have my... I didn't pay money for this, but my text tone is actually the Law & Order, like, dum dum. I like... [laughs] I like that actually. Uh, a- uh, yeah, and it's always, it's, it's always alarming to people- Yeah... around me. [laughs] So let's talk about Pesach for a second. Yes. You wrote many years ago, I don't know how many years ago, you wrote a piece that caused... Or is it a book or a p- I know- It was a sermon. It was a sermon...

11:59a sermon that caused a lot- And it was followed up by a couple articles, right... yes, that caused a lot of controversy in the Jewish world, I would say. And it made you... I mean, it was the first time, I, I mean, I don't know why a Chabad girl would've, you know, known who Rabbi Wolpe was until that time. [laughs] But, um, I learned about you through that piece, and you basically said that you Don't believe... Well, I don't wanna put words in your mouth.

12:23Okay, I will- What did you say about the Exodus- I'll tell you what I-... in your, in your sermon? I'll tell you what I said, I'll tell you about the fallout- Okay... and I'll tell you about what happened just a couple days ago that is really a beautiful coda to all of this. Okay, good. Yeah. So I said on Pesach that, um, essentially, that's, that the Torah is not history. Right. That the way the Torah describes the story is not the way it happened, assuming it happened.

12:47Um, and I gave some follow-up talks saying, I assume that some group of Israelites left Egypt, but the idea that 600,000 left- Mm-hmm... that the plagues are all historical and so on is, uh, is not supported by a lot of different kinds of convergence of lines of evidence- Mm-hmm... which we don't have to go into, about settlement patterns in Israel and so on, and that no modern archeologist actually, um, [clears throat] endorses... Well, I would- shouldn't say none. That's, that's unfair.

13:14They certainly don't endorse the story the way the p- the Bible tells it outside- Yeah... of the frum world, um, outside of the very religious world. Uh, but, um, but many, many believe that there was a presence, as I do, of Israelites in Egypt- Mm-hmm... um, and somehow, uh, managed to make it to Canaan where they created this remarkable people, or helped create. And so the reaction was explosive across the world. Yeah. Even though, by the way, this is exactly not only what had been taught in rabbinical schools, outside of Orthodox rabbinical schools, for half a century- Mm-hmm...

13:52but was even in the essay written by Lee Levine, uh, the, um, the scholar at Hebrew University, in the Chumash that all my congregants were holding. If they had r- [laughs]... actually read his essay, they would've seen the same thing. Um, but, but, you know, rabbis sometimes, I know this'll shock you, tend to be condescending- Yeah... and they think the congregants can't handle what they can handle. Right. So boy, was there a reaction. It went so far as to say, as to get a, a group of Orthodox rabbis who took an ad out in the Jewish Journal attacking me, saying I was equivalent to a Holocaust denier. Wow. Which I'm- Rabbis love to take ads out- I know [laughs]...

14:32against other people. Yeah. But which I must say, a, one wonderful rabbi came up to me afterwards and apologized for that. And it was like- Oh, wow... I understood the pressure that he was under, and so fine. Um, and I now actually have a good relationship with all the ones who did that, and we just sort of don't [laughs] talk about it. That's epic. Yeah. But, um- That's funny... but here's what's so interesting is a couple of days ago, not that anybody should listen to any podcast except for this one- Yes, of course... but- The only one... if accidentally they run out of yours and need another one.

15:05[laughs] So I host a podcast with Brett Stevens called the Sapir Podcast- Yes... through the Maimonides Fund. Mm-hmm. And we both, sometimes we do it together and sometimes we interview someone. So I was interviewing Joshua Berman, who is an Orthodox rabbi from Israel ordained by the chief rabbinate, who wrote a really beautiful Haggadah called Echoes of Egypt. Mm-hmm. Because he's an Egyptologist also. Oh, wow. So he shows all the parallels of Egypt and, and it's really wonderful because our Haggadot don't show the Egyptian context- Right, right... out of which this came, and this does- Mm... with pictures and everything.

15:42So I said to him, I mean, we had the discussion, finally I said to him, "Okay, you know, history or truth?" [laughs] I said, "I always saw the Torah as truth, not as history." Um, and obviously there's a lot of history in it, but, but that was not the function of it. And he said, "Someone once said," and this is what he believes, "That the Torah is a painting, not a photograph." Oh. Hmm. And I thought that was beautiful. Oh. Wow. Yeah. Beautiful. He said, "No one comes up to Rembrandt and says, 'Hey, cheeks don't glow like that.'" Right. You know, What are you doing? Mm-hmm.

16:15And I think if you think of the Torah as a painting, and if I had only known that, I would've said it at the time, then you understand what I was trying, in probably a less sophisticated way than I would've hoped to say, which i- because the whole point of the sermon was it doesn't matter. Right. I was sitting, I was standing in front of almost 2,000 people, 1,700 of whom had escaped from Iran. Right. Mm-hmm. And I said, "You have lived the Exodus." [laughs] Right. Right. You know it's true. So, um, that really was the point of the sermon, although not every- [laughs]

16:55everybody was- Took it that way... uh, yeah, took it exactly that way. That's actually- Yeah... beautiful, the idea that it's a painting and not a photograph. I think that is, that's such a deep idea that really could help, I think, a lot of people who struggle in this space of, like, trying to know how to believe and how to think about these things. I think that's really beautiful. He said- I'm, I'm actually surprised that more people don't, in the Orthodox world, and rabbis don't a- admit to this because, that it's more symbolism and there's nothing wrong with, you know, that- He said, um, that you would think that his having said that, as an Orthodox rabbi would, w- uh, he would come under a lot of fire. He says, "But you would be amazed how many of, in the Orthodox community have gotten in touch with me and said that's exactly how I think of it." Right.

17:42But I, but we all know that just to feel something and to say it publicly are two different- Yeah... things. So. Mm. But, but I, I, I've always felt, and I, I mean, this is just me, um, I, I've always felt with, like the second part of what you say, that it actually doesn't matter, you know? I don't, I could sit all day and, and read about Egypt and try to understand the archeology of it, and I did, I went through that phase, you know, where I was obsessed with, like, where is the evidence of whatever- Right...

18:11is happening in the Torah. And you know, I loved the Naked Archeologist 'cause he would go and he would recreate, you know, the stories and show us how it's possible, and I thought, oh, you know, this is what I need. But I, as I'm getting older, I realize that I just, it doesn't matter. I, I wanna believe it, I believe it to a, whatever degree I believe it in the moment, and the point of it is so much greater than whether or not we can prove scientifically or archeologically or historically that it happened.

18:38Because it did happen Right... in a way, right? Right. It- Like, it, it happened. [laughs] And not only... I- it's even deeper in that it, it is always happening. Right. I mean, that's like- Exactly. Exactly... when you say [Hebrew] in every generation, you should see yourself. Yeah. That's why, um, those of you... I'll get a tiny bit in the weeds. In- on Hanukkah, we say this prayer called Al HaNissim, on the miracles, and there we say what happened, [Hebrew] in that time and in that place. Yeah. So we're talking about a miracle that happened then.

19:10We don't say that prayer on Passover, and the reason we don't is because the Passover miracle is a constant miracle. Yeah. Mm. It's a miracle that happens all the time. This s- slavery- Yeah... and liberation, this sense of being confined, and, and then, um, and being unbound. And so yeah, I really, I think that, you know, the, the story is in, in, in a weird way deeper than truth. Yeah, and it's not like we can agree today on what's true or not, right? Like, people today even, m- you know, we talk about history, but also we talk about current affairs. I mean, people have...

19:47There's just so much information out there that you can construct your own truth. You don't need to- Mm... actually decide on one or another. Let me ask you, do you think AI will make this better or worse? Uh- Do you know what I mean? I'm, I'm more of an AI optimist, I think, than... I think human beings are, are very adaptable. My concern with AI, and this is... Uh, I've talked to people who are, who do, like, open source intelligence, and they said, it, somebody said to me, "It's not that people are believing fake things that worries me.

20:19It's that people are just choosing to believe nothing at all." Mm. So then when they see something real, they can just dismiss it and say- Right... "Oh, it's AI." Mm-hmm. Um, but I, I think it will cause us to become more skeptical, which is a good thing. The question is, how far are we gonna t- are we gonna take that skepticism to the point of just nihilism? Yeah. It scares me. I, I'm not, I'm not as optimistic, only because I, I see such a fracture between younger generations and older generations when it comes to these things, and people thinking that they don't need the wisdom of previous generations because everything is only forward-looking, and I just...

20:59That, to me, is the biggest tragedy of all of it. I mean, we need the wisdom of our ancestors, and a- I mean, that's... I- if you ask me what Jews are, that's what we are, right? We're the culmination of every generation on top of each other, giving it... This is what Pesach is, giving it over to their kids. And when we have a generation who says, "Nothing matters that came before this moment"- Mm-hmm... I worry so much about that, 'cause that's dangerous. Yeah. Yeah, I- But I think there's- Go ahead.

21:26Yeah, no, I was gonna say, if, if, you know, if I wanna become a little more optimistic, and Rabbi, you're, you're, you know, you're a bad influence on me maybe. [laughs] Uh, but I, I think this kind of leveling of everything to the point where nothing matters and not what happened back then, not what's happening today, this sort of nihilism is actually creating a bit of a, a... c- could create a turn towards spirituality, because I think people are looking for- I hope so... meaning, and that spirituality doesn't need to be religion- Yeah...

21:54but it can be, like, a depth of your community or your... There's a lot of talk in, like, woke circles about ancestors, right? They, like- Yeah... make your ancestors proud and, and that's something, you know, that could be a positive in a sense. I hope so. I hope so. Yeah, I, I do think that nothing will take away the deep human need for meaning- Yeah... and how it gets filled, you know, I, I mean, it can get filled in unhealthy or healthy ways, but- Yeah...

22:20but, but Hilela, what you said is, uh, reminds me that I, I tell people all the time that one of the great differences, um, that make this generation essentially different from previous ones is it's the first time in human history that children had essential life skills that their parents didn't. Yeah. Like the farmer- It's crazy... you know, the parent knew more about farming than the kid did. Yeah. But when my computer doesn't work, I call my daughter. Right. Mm. Right. [laughs] She's, you know- Yeah.

22:49That's right. That's right. Yeah. Oh, oh. And that's very strange. Have you ever sent them, have you ever sent your kids... And you don't have to answer this if you don't want. Have you ever sent your kids a fake AI video- [laughs]... and they were like, "Dad, this is fake"? No, actually, I actually never have. Um- Okay. [laughs] By the way- But that would be- You will... [laughs] Yeah. It's very common. It's very common. I've, I've done it. I've posted something a, a while ago that turned out to be AI. That turned... Oh. It's, it's a lot- You mean unknowingly... harder to fake. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

23:15Listen, I, I think, I think that, uh, um, most of the time, unless it really compels her, she doesn't pay attention anyway to, uh, most of the things. That's... [laughs] So I think I'm safe on that. Good plan. Whether it's real or fake. Let me ask you- If it's, like, one of those emojis that tells me, "I am, I'm giving you the appropriate emotional response"- Mm.... please don't believe that I have paid any attention to this. [laughs] That's a thumbs up. Send a thumbs up. A thumbs up is the most- A thumbs up is the emoji. [laughs] Thumbs up is the most aggressive.

23:47Oh my God, when my kids send me the thumbs up emoji, I know that they do not care about what I just said. [laughs] They were not listening. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Let me ask you something, because I, I struggle with this. So, uh, you know, I obviously come from a community that just revels in, in, uh, uh, custom and tradition, and Pesach is, is a shining example of when we really- [laughs]... really lean into, um, you know, the customs around these things, and we go out of our way to, like, be more strict than, you know, the previous generation. I mean, it's a bit much when it comes to Pesach.

24:20And I work with students who are not like that, right? My students are not religious or not Orthodox, and many of them are just starting off, and, you know, trying to build their own homes and their own Seders and Pesach. And for many of them, you know, they're satisfied having a dinner with, you know, a box of matzah and a bottle of wine on the table. And I'm in this constant push and pull of trying to encourage even that bare minimum thing, but also wishing, wishing that I could encourage them to... take on more, right?

24:52Because I think it's, even though I laugh at it and sneer at my, you know, at some of the things we do, I think it is the glue that keeps us f- doing what we do. How do you feel about that, you know, when it comes to younger people? Are you in... Do you wanna push more on them and expect more of them and say, "Don't do the bare minimum," right? It's not enough to just have a box of matzah sitting on your table and pretend that that was a Seder. Like, do we, are we lowering our expectations so much that we're almost changing the nature of what the Seder is and what Judaism is, and can we expect more? I think, I mean, [sighs] expect is a funny word.

25:31Uh, I would- Right... I, in that sense, I would say I encourage. And the way maybe I would encourage it is by saying, look, the attention with which you do something and the care with which you do something changes the experience. Mm. Think all of you go to the gym. Yeah. You can go to the gym, and you can lift a light weight, and you can, you know- [laughs]... spend 10 minutes on the StairMaster. And you know- Right... you'll walk out thinking, "I went to the gym, but it really didn't-" [laughs] "... change me." I'm feeling good. We're having burger king right now. But exactly.

26:01If you work up a sweat and so on, you, you feel afterwards- Yeah... because your, a- as Hemingway way said, "Good is what feels good after." Mm. It's not easy to make a Seder, and it's not easy to kosher your home for Pesach. It takes a lot of work. Yeah. But the feeling of having done it is not comparable to pulling out a box of wine in a, uh, uh, to pulling out a wine in a box of matzah. Yeah. So if you want to achieve something for yourself and grow yourself as opposed to just have a meal with matzah, uh, you have to put in effort. That's just, that's the reality of life in general.

26:38And one of the things that, I mean, to go back a little bit to the AI conversation, is a lot of things that used to take effort are now- Yeah... instantaneous. Right. I mean, do you remember when we were younger and we used to have fights over facts- Oh, yeah [laughs]... all overnight? [laughs] Yeah. 'Cause you couldn't actually pull out your phone and just find out. And so you- Yeah... could argue for days- [laughs]... over who starred in a certain movie. Yeah. Exactly. And nobody, and nobody could prove it until, like, you found a reference book or something. [laughs] Yes.

27:08[laughs] But now- But do you remember that amazing feeling- So true... of trying to remember where an actor is from- Yeah... or, and then three days later it comes to you? It will come to you. We'll never have that again. Exactly. Yep. Yeah. That's so true. I know. So- Oh, I love that answer 'cause it is about the effort you put into something. That's a really good answer. Yeah. But I- And I, I just feel like so many parents, I think are my parents' generation and my generation also, like, we're so scared of their kids. They walked on eggshells. [laughs] Right?

27:38And they didn't wanna push their kids in any direction that... I don't mean, by the way, not in the Orthodox world. I mean outside [laughs] of Orthodox world. Right. Absolutely. But people walk on eggshells, and I, I think it's okay to say to your kids, like, "We, this is what we do in our home. This is, like, what we expect." Right. "We expect you to come home for the Seder," or- Correct... "We expect you to have a Seder." But parents don't wanna do that, and I don't know how to give parents, like, the permission to have those kinds of conversations with adult children, you know? I, I don't know.

28:06Maybe I'm wrong for even wishing that they would. No, you're not. I don't think you're wrong for wishing. I think it's complicated depending on the relationship in the family and this and that and the other thing. But, but, um, but I also agree with you that this is part of the syndrome of a very coddled generation. And part of that is not just pa- parents' attitudes, but it's social circumstances. Mm. Again, when I was a kid, we would leave the house in the morning, and parents would say, "Be home for dinner." Right. Mm-hmm. And didn't have a phone to check on us. Right. And they just assumed we were gonna be okay.

28:43[laughs] And we were all okay. And so it builds, uh, a sense of resilience that I think is really missing in a lot of the, this generation, which is to their detriment. And, and, and it's not their fault 'cause frankly, we did it to them. Yeah, we did it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like, if I can give the other side to that or just... Uh, I think also if you do force kids to do things and they don't grasp the meaning behind it or they don't, uh, you know, they could end up resenting it.

29:20Like, growing up in Israel, you know, what, every- everything that was religious in my environment was all related to, you know, either something with school or something that I had to do, right? Right. We had very little of the, I don't know, a spiritual part of it. Um, and it do- it does cause some resentment. So I think there's like you need to walk that line very delicately, right, instead of just like, "We have to do this." I agree with you.

29:45And also the, the problem [laughs] the infuriating thing about children, um, one of them anyway, uh, is that you know f- what works for one kid beautifully- Mm... another child it's gonna completely backfire, and you don't know it until years later. Yeah. Yeah. So you can s- say to one kid, "You have to be here for every Shabbos dinner," and they'll resent it, and then years later they'll say, "I'm so grateful that you made me sit around the table for Shabbos dinner."

30:16And another kid will say, "I hated having to always be home when my friends were out." Right. And unfortunately, because children don't come with an instruction manual, you don't know which, which kid you're getting. [laughs] Which is which. Yeah. That's true. The best you can do is be as loving and as firm as you can and try to know your own child, but that's not easy. Yeah. I think Thomas, uh, Thomas Sowell once I, I read something that he said about equality and he said, like, "How can we expect equal outcomes in the country if we can't even have equal outcomes in a household-" That's a good point...

30:50"between siblings," right? Yep. Wow. Like, you can raise two... I, I, my nieces, I have a bunch of niece and nephews, and they're, uh, two of them are twins, and they couldn't be more different even though they grew up in the same-... household, right? Right. But, but what scares me, I mean, and, and this is y- you know, if I was just a regular Orthodox person living in an Orthodox community, I wouldn't care 'cause, you know, the Orthodox world is, has its own problems, but not...

31:13One of the problems it has, not that it's fading away. It's growing. It's strong- [laughs]... and it's thriving and- That's a problem we have. Ri- No, but that, that- That you're, that you're not fading away. [laughs] Exactly. No, and I... So if I just focused on that, you know, I would think about different problems. But because I live in the world of the liberal Jewish world or the secular Jewish world- Right... I, I'm scared 'cause I don't see a, a tremendous amount of urgency on the part of young people to feel...

31:40And, you know, yes, there was a bump after October 7th, for sure, and I, I, I see it with my students on campus and, and I, I, I appreciate it. But if I wasn't there feeding them the, the content and the, the, the, you know, um, modeling the way that, you know, I do the things that I do, and I'm not saying that my way is the only way and, you know, I believe in the pluralistic vision of Hillel. I'm, I'm... I believe that, but if we're not feeding it to them and modeling it for them and giving it to them, I'm really scared 'cause I don't see how this generation is going to be the ones that can really grow the Jewish c- people and keep it, even sustain it.

32:17Forget grow. How about sustain it? And that's what I'm, I'm worried about. It, it's, it's a problem that everybody in... I mean, in the, in the Orthodox world they may worry about it too, but everybody in the non-Orthodox world- Yeah... who cares at all about Judaism cares about. And, and again, I, I don't wanna be optimistic about this, like, in a, in a naive way. Um- No, go for it... but the one thing that I will say is, you know, when people ask me, "Why is the Orthodox community in, in growing?"

32:50And, um, I point out that apart from all of its virtues, and it has many, many virtues. I'm not at all, uh- At all. Yeah... I mean, I love the Orthodox community even though I'm outside of it. Um, but also the right in every religion in the world is growing. Right. In Christianity, in Islam, in Hinduism, and as the old Yiddish saying has it, "Jews are like other people, only more so." Right, right. [laughs] Um, so if everybody else, that's growing. It's not surprising that it is in Judaism, too. That doesn't mean that the sociological trends that exist now will always exist. Right.

33:25There was a time when people thought the Orthodox world would disappear. We were clearly wrong. Right. Um, now people think the non-Orthodox world will disappear. Who knows? Uh, the world- Yeah... is infinitely surprising. Um, I'm, I'm old enough to remember that the day before the Soviet Union collapsed, even though it was the most watched place in the world, nobody knew it was gonna collapse. Right. Mm. So we'll see. I mean, major changes are coming in society. If that will cause a religious revival of all different kinds, I think that would be a wonderful thing. I hope for it, but who knows? Right.

33:59Have, have you read- Why did you become a rabbi? Why'd I become a rabbi? Yeah, yeah. What made you- Um, for the podcast mostly. [laughs] I thought, "Let me get on those podcasts." No, um, well, so I, I can give you two different reasons, both of which are true. One is my father was a rabbi in, uh, most of his career in Philadelphia, a truly wonderful man, wonderful rabbi. Um, but I never planned to do that. I was sure I wasn't going to do that. Um- Mm... I thought it was a great thing for him to do. I never wanted to do it.

34:28And then I was working at Camp Ramah in California actually because a friend of mine had come out to run it and said, you know, "Don't you wanna be at Ca-" I was working there in Poconos in Pennsylvania. He said, "Don't want, don't you wanna work out in California?" And I assumed it would be, like, on the beach, and there would be surfers- [laughs]... and it's not like that at all. But anyway. [laughs] But it's a great camp. Yeah. And while I was there, another rabbi, Elliot Dorff, said to me, "What do you wanna do with your life?" I had just graduated college. I said, "I wanna write."

34:59He said, "What do you wanna write about?" And I said, "Well, I don't really know anything." [laughs] "I've just always wanted to write." He said, "Go to rabbinical school for a year." Wow. He said, "The worst that happens is you'll learn something, and the best that happens- Mm... is you'll find your subject." Wow. And I'll tell you what kept me in school more than anything else. First, I loved the learning. I'd never learned like that before. But the other thing was, having come from Penn, the people who teach you in college don't live what they teach. Mm-hmm. Mm.

35:29I was an English literature major, but nobody lives Middlemarch. Right, [laughs] right. But the, but the professors in rabbinical school, they really... Some did it more, some did it less. They really tried to live what they were teaching you, and I thought that's the way to do it. You wanna actually- Mm... teach and live the same thing as opposed to it being disconnected, and so I was hooked. That's great. Interesting. I love that. Um, what do you, what, what, what do you say to young people today who...

35:59Oh, I don't know if they come to you, but you probably hear about this at least, who say, "I don't, you know, I don't need any of this. There's no reason for me to raise my kids Jewish. Um, there's definitely no reason for me to, uh, have any connection to Israel." Um, it's very, um... You know, it's a very tempting argument, right? Because you can easily within a generation just cut off that, um, you know, everything that comes with it, the anxiety, the, the, um, antisemitism.

36:31Uh, what do you say to people who say, "You know, what do I need this for?" So there, I think, there... I, I give one of two approaches depending on the person. One is internal, one is external. Mm. The erin- the external one is you're right. You can also live without art. You can live without music. Mm-hmm. You can live without literature. You can live without a lot of things that deeply enrich your life, but if you do, you're gonna be missing something that deeply enriches your life. That's one. Mm-hmm. That's the external one.

37:02The internal one is- I want you to consider why Jews throughout history, who were in much, much more difficult circumstances than you, thought that it was worthwhile to continue to be Jewish. Mm. Mm. And what was it that they thought that you don't think, and why did they reach that conclusion when you don't reach that conclusion? Mm. Because we all know, like, most of what Jews actually suffer from today is social embarrassment or dissociation, which is very hard. I'm not- Yeah... suggesting for a minute...

37:38Um, look, I, I'm a rabbi, so my being Jewish is not ever gonna be a social embarrassment for me because that is both what the world expects of me and what I- Kinda, that's part of the job for you. Right. Exactly. It's my job. Yeah. Um, but I understand why someone in a professional setting says, you know, "I don't wanna post this about Israel because then all my coworkers are gonna hate me." Right. Yeah. So I know that it's not easy, but I still would ask them why they think that people who were under much more social and actual physical pressure than they are decided to stick with it.

38:14I would add just one thing to that beautiful answer, but I don't think you can leave it behind. Mm. Like, I, I don't know... I mean, I... Listen, I believe we all have souls, and a pentela yid is a real thing, that there's something inside of a Jew that is just, you could try and run away and hide, and something is going to spark it one day, and it... You don't know when. And I think for a lot of Jews, and I've spoken to many, uh, Oct- something like October 7th did it. You know, and people were surprised at their own reaction to it and their own feelings- Mm-hmm...

38:46around what it meant to be a Jew in that moment. And, you know, sometimes it's a bad thing, which I hate that that's what sparks it, but sometimes it's also a good thing. I've heard of... You know, I've spoken to people who never thought about their Jewish identity until their child was born, and all of a sudden they looked at their child, and something, they can't explain what it is, just sparked inside of them. So I don't know. People can say they want to leave it behind and run away, but it's not really possible, I don't think. Yeah.

39:11So because of that, uh, because you said that, I'm gonna recommend to your listeners that they read... It's a short story. So I'm not recommending a book- Yeah. [laughs]... just a short story. Our, our listeners don't read. Yeah. Yeah. They do. And it's unbelievably moving, and it's exactly what you're talking about, and it's really worth the 20 minutes it will take you. It is, uh, in Elie Wiesel's book, Legends of Our Time- Oh. Mm-hmm... and it's called A Jewf Saragossa. And- Jew from Saragossa... and it is... Or A Jew of Saragossa, I don't remember. But- Right...

39:43but it is an, an unbelievably touching, surprising, beautiful example of exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. Mm. It's just, it's hard to leave it. I would just say that Hitler would kill them, too. So- [laughs]... they might as well embrace it. [laughs] But that doesn't- Covered all the bases here. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. It works. It has, like, a 50/50, you know, success rate. [laughs] Oh, my gosh. We, we said we weren't gonna talk about antisemitism too much 'cause we're sick of it, but I do wanna ask you about Holocaust education- [laughs]...

40:13um, because it's something that's near and dear to my heart, and I, I'm so... Not just me, I think the whole Jewish world is confused about [laughs] how to navigate this. I'll tell you my take on it. Yeah. My take on it is it's powerful and important if it's in a much larger context of Jewish education. Mm. If it's all you know, then it's... I mean- Yeah. Mm... to, to have your Judaism be entirely negative is a very bad thing. And if it's all non-Jews know about Jews- Mm... that's a terrible thing. I know. Like, "Oh, these are the people who were killed by the Nazis."

40:50So I think that it's... It, it has an incredibly important place, um, but it has to be more than Holocaust education. Yeah. Yeah. That's- You, you know what I've been thinking about lately? I feel like there's, like, a, a grievance, uh, envy or, like, a Holocaust envy sometimes, which I, I don't even know. I think I'm even a little sympathetic to it, where you just see... And I don't know if this is social media or whatnot, but, uh, whenever something bad happens to a group of people, and this is not just Jews, uh, other, other minorities will pop up and be like, "Well, what about this that happened?

41:23What about that that happened?" It's like I, I don't know how to fix that because I think part of it is because Holocaust education is so... it's such a big part of the curriculum and the culture, but I don't wanna turn the clock on that. Like, I... You know, if that upsets some people, then tough luck. Well, there... We, we do... Maybe this was always true, but it is certainly true now. We live in a society in which victimhood is a kind of power. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

41:48And so nobody wants to give up on the victimhood of their own story, which is why there is almost no group that I can think of that doesn't have a victim story. Right. Mm-hmm. Um, because that's one of the ways you get political power is by being a victim. Yeah. So... Yeah. I don't love when Jew... Like, I don't know. I, uh... There's a lot of things that Jews do that are cringe-worthy for me. But it, it, it's hard to balance that. On one hand, you wanna show, like, look what they're doing to us. On the other hand, the last thing I want is for people to walk around and feel sorry for me. I know. Yeah. I know.

42:24It's hard. Um, yeah. It's true. It's hard. And it, it is difficult. The, the... I will say one flip side of that was something very powerful that I heard, and I like to quote it often because it's so important for people to hear, that I... After, after October 7th, I was on a panel, uh, with, uh, Van Jones at the Milken Conference. Mm. Oh. The CNN Conference. That's my last best friend. [laughs] And, and he said... Uh, you may have heard him say this.

42:48I don't know. He said he went to, uh, 140 Black leaders in Atlanta and said to them... That's where he lives. He said to them, "The Jews were there for us. Now we need to be there for the Jews." Mm-hmm. He said, "And you know what they almost all said to me, almost to a person?" Somebody needs us. Mm. Mm. They had never been asked. Mm. And one of the things that I think Jews don't do very w- we expect- Yeah... but we don't always ask. Yeah. And asking somebody to stand with you... You know, we all know in our own life, what are you more likely to respond to? You owe me- Yeah. [laughs]... or I need you. Oh, yeah.

43:27And so while I don't wanna be vulnerable, I also don't wanna be superhuman. Um- Yeah... and, and I think that, uh, especially in the aftermath of the Holocaust, we have a tendency to be so unwilling to be vulnerable that we don't wanna say to people around us, "We actually need your help," and then we turn around and say, "Why aren't you helping us?" And the answer is everyone likes to be asked. Mm. I j- that's such an interesting point. I just read an article by, I th- uh, Zohar Atkins. Are you familiar with him? Oh, yeah. I know him very well- Yeah...

43:57and we think world of him. Yeah. He just wrote a piece... You know when sometimes you read a piece that just, like, blows your mind? You're like, "Oh, I wish I thought of that idea." Like- [laughs]... and he just wrote a piece about how maybe Judaism can't survive without the walls and the wars and the... You know, like, maybe that's the only way that we know how to survive and the... And h- and he was basically describing the Haredim, the ultra-Orthodox in Israel, kind of building themselves into the minority that they were in Europe, like rebuilding it in the context of Israel.

44:29And I thought it was such an interesting point that, you know, maybe we need that friction in order to have... Y- we need, like, the other or the friction or the- Yeah... you know, something to hold us together, and he... And I thought it was brilliantly... The way he wrote it was brilliantly- I think it was a brilliant essay. He's, he's wonderful. The one thing that I will caution against... Not, not, this is not directed against Zohar, but just in general. No, no, I wanna hear your thoughts on this.

44:54People, people sometimes say, um, the Jews have survived because they were hated. Yeah. And I remind them that a lot of groups have been hated throughout history, but none of them are here anymore. Mm. And that's why we don't notice it. Right. So it can only [laughs] be that we were hated. Like, I, you know, I don't know where your listeners live, but one thing I promise is when they walk out on the street, they will not see a Hittite. Right. [laughs] So there's gotta be a reason why all these groups have disappeared and we're still here, and it can't [laughs] be because we're hated, 'cause other groups that are hated and persecuted- Right... are no longer.

45:29That's not- that's what I'm gonna call this episode. It's Not Enough to Be Hated. [laughs] No, it's our reaction to being hated- Yeah... I think, and what we do with it. And by the way, this is gonna be such a link-heavy podcast. There's gonna be a lot of reading for Pesach that people- All right, good... can print. Good. That's good. No, it's good. Um, but yeah. I mean, I, I think about in Israel because sometimes, y- you know, this is gonna be maybe a little, I don't know if offensive is the right word, but sometimes I wonder what would happen if we didn't have the external, uh, threats, because we would be killing each other. Like, I remember- Mm...

46:02I remember this so clearly. Yom Kippur 2023, a few days before October 7th, and there was a big... I was in Tel Aviv, and there was a big, um, you know, argument. Almost like a fist fight broke out around, um, around services- Yeah... public services that the city put together, and people wanted to be more religious or less religious. And I remember being so heartbroken that day, being like- Yeah... "What are we doing to each other?" And then October 7th happened. Yeah. And i- it's not a way to, to live. We can't be on those two, two extremes.

46:34Jews have a very long history of infighting. Um- Yeah. Yeah. I mean- 'Cause we're very annoying. Uh, yes. I mean... [laughs] I could, I could give you lots of historical examples, but it certainly is- And I'm sure your email inbox is full of historical- Oh, yeah. Of course... examples of Jews being annoying. And even more on social media. Um- Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. We're, we're not, we're not gracious with each other. The one thing that I will say that seems to be true now, which was not true before October 7th, is before October 7th, people had much...

47:05Uh, Jews would, uh, take other Jews to task for religious differences much more than they do now, in the sense that if you show that you care about Jewish solidarity and survival, then I think most Jews say, "Okay, you're part of, you're part of the group." Yeah. Mm. And so I know of, for example, um, Reform rabbis who Orthodox rabbis celebrate because they're serious Zionists. Yeah. Yeah. And they feel like, "Okay, we have religious differences with you, but, but we're in this collective project together." Yeah. And that, I think, is a good development. Again, just giving you the optimistic take.

47:41No, I like... That's true, though. No, that's a good- that's good. I didn't know that, actually. I always say, you know, ch- I, I'm, I'm part of the Chabad move- Chaba- Lubavitcher, and- Right... Lubavitch and Satmar Hasidim- Yeah... in the '70s were, were at bitter odds against each other. Terrible. They were, they were beating u- up Chabad Hasidim. I mean, it was very, very bad. And fast-forward, you know, 40 years later, and it's not like that. Not that we agree with Satmar on everything, obviously. We have big, big, um, theological differences and obviously- Right...

48:08huge differences on Israel, but we definitely don't hate each other anymore the way that we did. I mean, my grandfather, we wouldn't buy meat or milk that came with a Satmar hashgacha. Like, we would not eat their kosher symbols. That's how much- [laughs]... it was forbidden in our house. Like, that's how it was. And now, 40 years later, you know, it's a different kind of reality, and I'm hoping that that could... Me being Pollyanna, but, like, maybe that could grow and extend into other groups of Jewish thinking also.

48:40Well, can we, can we kick out those that actively work against us, though? Yes. Like, I'm talking about N- Neturei Karta- They are kicked out... and also on the left side- Nobody needs-... you know, the progressive synagogues that invite, like, Mahmoud Khalil to come speak. [laughs] Yeah. I don't know what- Like, what do we- I don't know what kick out means. Um- [laughs] But, uh, you don't, you don't have to go to that synagogue. That's right. [laughs] That's right. And you don't have to- I like something a little more extreme. No, but we wouldn't count somebody...

49:07My father is a ra- uh, an Orthodox rabbi, would not... If a Neturei Karta... Not only wouldn't, I've seen it with my own eyes. A Neturei Karta guy showed up at my father's shul, my father would not count him in the minyan. He deliberately would- Mm-mm... not count him, and he said, "You're not welcome here, and I'm not counting you in the minyan," and it's, that's just the way it, it- But you know where they are welcome and almost front and center sometimes- In Iran?...

49:27in the culture In Iran. [laughs] Yeah, in Iran. It's true Sure, they're best friends with the regime. That's I mean, but, but also- There's a book in the head... In the country, you know, you'll see, you'll see profiles of... Yeah And Neturei Karta is, like, maybe a really extreme example. But, but, like s- like anti-Zionist synagogues- Yeah... where that- that's explicitly their mission. You know, they're popping up in a lot of places as representatives of the Jewish people. Yeah. I... You know, other people are elevating them, and it's, it's, it's worrying.

49:56There's never been a time- Mm-hmm... when the enemies of the Jewish people couldn't point to Jews and say, "You see?" Mm-hmm. "You see? They're our allies. So you can't tell us that the Jewish people don't agree with us, 'cause look at these Jews who are our allies." Mm-hmm. Um, that is a sad, uh, more than sad, it's a tragic fact of Jewish history, but it's also a constant fact of Jewish history. 'Cause we're annoying. [laughs] That's... It all comes down to that. What is your...

50:23Sorry to change the subject so much, but what is your Seder like at your, in your personal life? Um, you know, it's weird because the last several years I've been to different Seders at different places. Oh, nice. Mm-hmm. But usually the Seder, I mean, I, I love if people sing the same melodies that I do, but if they don't- No... um, but usually it's a lot of discussion. Mm-hmm. It's a lot of... And, and, and generally not contemporary discussion. I don't really do politics at the Seder, and I don't think we should do politics at the Seder. Agreed. I think we should just do the Seder at the Seder. Mm-hmm.

50:57And so I ask, usually I ask people to bring something that they wanna talk about and, uh- Mm-hmm... and it's... Although I will say this, I mean, I have to confess, I'm an early to bed and early to rise person. [laughs] Mm. I don't do well with Seders that go on to God knows when. I just don't. Mm. I fade in the evenings- Yeah... and I'm, I'm alive in the morning. I wish the Seder was in the morning. Yes. Um, but I do my best. I try to take a nap that day. [laughs] Yeah. Try to stay up late. Um- Hard... and yeah. Do you have dinner before the Seder? Make it. I eat something before the Seder, always. Yeah. Always, always.

51:31I always feel bad for people who've never been to a Seder- Right, yes... and they think they're coming for dinner. [laughs] And you're like, "Oh, no, no, no. There's like three hours of reading." Right. Before. Right. But it's tricky of course, because you can eat matzah before the Seder- Right... and you can eat shmaltz before the Seder. I know. So there's not much you can have. Fruit. [laughs] I... Wait, no. What do you mean? Part of my Erev Pesach stress is what everyone's eating that day. So I make a potato kugel- You need to carb load, like before a marathon... deliberately I make potato kugel and I make, uh- That's so funny. Yeah.

52:00I, we remember you baked potatoes. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. It's true, what else is there to eat? But my, of course- But you need to warn people- I know... that, like, you know, don't come hungry. Yeah. Halfway through the reading you get, like, a boiled egg- It's almost like-... and some parsley... I swear it's almost like in, in Shoh when you have non-Jews who are invited to the Bar or Bat Mitzvah and they come at the beginning- I know... of the service. I, it's terrible...

52:21and I think, you know, you're not gonna think much of Sugya DeZimra. Oh my God. [laughs] You're just not. [laughs] If they're there for Ashrei, no. If they're there for Ashrei it's a huge mistake. They cannot come at Ashrei. That's terrible. I know. You know, my fir- Can I tell you a funny story? My first year in the US, 'cause we don't do two Seders in Israel. You're right. So I had Seder with my family in Los Angeles, and then the second night I was invited to, actually it's somebody who I think might be a listener. Mm. And I just thought we were going to dinner. Oh my God.

52:50I didn't realize- [laughs]... that we're going through the whole thing over again. And it, it ended up being very lovely but- [laughs]... you know, it was, it was quite a surprise. [laughs] Yes. It's, yeah, we do Groundhog Day in the diaspora. Yes, yes. Yeah. It's funny, I always ask this question, because if the Seder is meant to be about the kids, which it is, it's all about, you know, symbolism for the children and having the kids ask questions. Why do we do it at 9:00 PM?

53:12You're s- I mean, it should be lunchtime. I mean, the kids are- I couldn't agree with you more... oh my God. My k- when my kids were little, it was the hardest thing. And I, you know, we have a rabbi here, uh, the head rabbi of Long Beach, who's a very, the Chaba- the head Chabad rabbi of Long Beach, who's a wonderful man, and he has a very big family. Kenahara has 16 kids. And, you know, I remember a story when I was little that one of his youngest sons fell asleep at the Seder- Oh my... and, you know, right at the beginning.

53:38And the Rabbi Newman, uh, his name is Rabbi Newman, he woke up the next morning and he sat down with that son and made a full Seder with him in the morning. Because- Oh, wow... you know, when you learn about him- I can't tell if this is a beautiful story or a traumatic one. No, it's a beautiful story because when you realize these kids, I mean, if you go to an Orthodox day school, you learn about Pesach for a month in advance. You're, you're building a Haggadah. Yeah.

53:58You're, you're learning about it. And then you miss the whole thing, and my kids when they were little, they cried and oh, it was, it was not easy. Did they hi- hide an afikoman for him? There was no competition. I'm sure. I'm sure. We don't do the- Yeah... stealing the afikoman thing. That's a very American, uh- No... we don't do that. No. My cousins and I used to do, like, a little pact and be like, "Okay, three of us together, we'll split the prize." [laughs] That's so cute. Um- That's cute. But, uh- So Yael, you wanna ask one more question and then...

54:26Um, yeah. I wanted to ask if, uh, you forgive Kanye? [laughs] You know, here's what I would say. It's a Talmu- this is a Talmudic question. It is a Talmudic question. This is not a yes/no question. I would say that his apology- Mm-hmm... was very beautiful. But unless he does some kind of serious teshuvah, I mean, in the Jewish tradition just saying "I'm sorry" is not sufficient. You have to try to repair some of the damage that you've done. I have not seen that he has done that. I haven't seen, for example, that he's given concerts to support the IDF. That would be good. Oh. I would like that.

55:04That would be nice. Um, if he does that, I would forgive him. If he doesn't do that, then he's done a lot of damage and no repair. Mm. Wow. That's a really- That's a high bar. That's a high bar. Um- No, it's true. It's true... but my, my Talmudic approach, my, my, my Beth Hillel approach, if you will, was [laughs] I was like, I loved him already, so I, all I w- all I needed was a sign from Hashem that it's okay to like him again. [laughs] Yeah. And that sign was in the last week article. I understand. Look, I, I don't condemn, I never condemn someone who forgives. Yeah. You know? I would never say, "Bad that you forgave."

55:37But if you ask me, I think it's just, it's just too easy to apologize without doing anything else when you've done a great deal of damage. Yeah. I really believe that, so. Fine, fine. My issue... See, uh, I'm gonna say something different. I don't care about Kanye. To me, Kanye is irrelevant. I, I couldn't care less. I'm, I- And imagine it was Brad Pitt. No, my anger is I am so bitterly angry at Mandy Patinkin- [laughs]... that I can't get to myself over it. Like- We need you to do a sulha between Mandy Patinkin and, and Chaya Laz. It's, it's bad I, I am so angry at him.

56:13I really, I have a, a, a tremendous amount of bitter anger and hatred towards him that I hate myself for, because it's only hurting me. He doesn't care. [laughs] But I am so angry at him, and I don't know if he could f- I don't know if I could forgive him. I don't know what, what, what he could do right now that the Jewish people should say to Mandy Patinkin, "You know what? We forgive you, and you're back with us." Because what he has done is so, in my mind, is so egregious, I, I can't get to myself over it. I'm sure he's gonna have Zoran at his Seder. We should end on a good note.

56:47[laughs] Which, which is that for thousands of years Jews said, "Close the Seder with next year in Jerusalem"- Yeah... without really having a realistic chance of having the Seder next year in Jerusalem. So true. And the fact that we end it now and we actually could have the Seder next year in Jerusalem is both a historical miracle and to all of our lives really a great blessing. Mm-hmm. And no, uh- It's true... no hostage chairs this year. And no hostages- I know... this year. Again, that- Okay And ho- and hostages home for Seder, which is good. But not Mandy Patinkin. [laughs] We, we won't.

57:25Chaya, did you not hear when Rabbi Wolpe said that we can't survive on hate alone? I know. I'm working on it. He didn't mean the hate directed towards us. He meant- I'm working on it. I'm working on myself... our hate towards other people. I'm working on myself, but you're right. It's, it, next year should be a good year. We should be in Jerusalem all together. Whether it's at the Waldorf... I'll even stay at a second tiered hotel. It doesn't even have to be- Even Mamilla. Yeah... I will even stay, I'll even stay at the Dan Panorama. You, your Seder place is stunning. Really. Like, I'm, I'm in awe.

57:52I am in awe. All right. Thank you so much. All right. Chag Sameach. Thank you very much. Chag Sameach. Thank you so much. [outro music]